Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Murlough]

Daisy caused excitement in every video reaction I've seen.

She might not be on the level of Ridley or Inklings, but she certainly was met with a great deal of excitement even as an Echo Fighter

No one likes her, ug.

Also, I've noyiced that every leak is met with at least a few "obviously fake" comments and I have to wonder: what would it take for someone to actually believe a leak?

 

[KingBroly]

Yes I was arguing this. My post was in response to someone saying otherwise, claiming the roster starting roster is going to be larger than the starting 8 or original 12, despite pointing out the wording being, "starting roste being as small as the original game".

I think that part was mis-translated, because it didn't match up with what it was conveying on-screen. I'd rather it be the original 8 because I think Sakurai will go full bore with the notion that this is his last Smash Bros.

I'll go out on a limb and say that under Masterpieces (the demos from the last 2 iterations) we'll see the entirety of Smash 64 be available to play.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I don't think the starting roster is going to be the original 8 or 12.

There's no way they'd advertise all these newcomers and not slap some of them on the starting roster.

Well we only have 3 newcomers so far and we don't really know how many more to expect. Slapping a few on the starting roster could very well end up meaning slapping a majority of them on there, however, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Conversely, Snake and Sonic were heavily pushed for Brawl but they ended up being unlockable. Same could happen for the newcomers in Ultimate.

 

[Shroob]

No one likes her, ug.

Also, I've noyiced that every leak is met with at least a few "obviously fake" comments and I have to wonder: what would it take for someone to actually believe a leak?

Text leaks are difficult to prove as truth without things actually going in their favor.

No one could believe the E3 leak until E3 happened, for example.


And even picture and video 'proof' fall under heavy scrutiny when Smash 4 had some of the best fake image and video leaks for its time.


To me, if you wanted to make me believe something, show me the CSS, show me you're actually using the controller to mouse over the characters, select a character I haven't seen before, and lemme hear Xander scream their name. THEN I'll believe you. Artsyomni showed that just selecting a character on the CSS could be faked, I need to hear Xander to believe it.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

On the topic earlier of Echo vs. semi-clone, it's not an either or situation, cloning exists on a spectrum. Additionally, from what we seen Echoes aren't just clones, they're essentially glorified alts, with practically 1:1 body structure and few actual gameplay differences; Lucina is negligibly shorter with negligibly shorter reach (a matter of a couple pixels, so practically irrelevant) with the exact same movement specs/physics while all her moves function the same with the same frame data as Marth's (just with consistent strength throughout and no tipper), and then Dark Pit is the exact same in everything except for his f-tilt having weaker knockback, his jab finisher having a smaller hitbox (this one probably an oversight after a patch made Pit's bigger without doing the same for Dark Pit), altered arrows (stronger with less control), an altered side-b (stronger with horizontal knockback), and a different final smash. Even the Melee clones were substantially more different than this (as they had different shapes/sizes, different movement specs/physics, different frame data and damage/knockback values on pretty much all attacks, many moves having altered functioning, and even a unique move here and there). Dr. Mario avoids the Echo designation for this reason, while calling him a semi-clone is still not accurate from what we seen. The general cloning categories goes like this:

*Echo Fighters (as covered prior)

*Clones (most if not all moves cloned from another character, but most if not all aspects have been altered substantially so that they are legitimately distinct in how they play; the six Melee clones and 64 Luigi are examples).

*Semi-clones (has a significant portion of their design/moveset cloned from another character, but has just as much or more that is unique to them or drastically altered that labelling them just a clone is misleading; 64 Jigglypuff, post-64 Luigi, post-Melee Falco and Ganondorf, Toon Link, and Lucas are examples).

*No real accepted term for this; characters with a few cloned aspects but mostly unique (Wolf, post-64 Jigglypuff, 64 Captain Falcon and Ness are examples).

Then additionally the individually categories themselves are on a spectrum; for example among the Melee clones Ganondorf is significantly more different from his source character than Dr. Mario is, and among semi-clones Lucas for example is close to the semi-clone label being questionable while Brawl Toon Link is on the opposite end of the semi-clone spectrum.

 

[Shroob]

Bringing back characters is kind of hard to hype too. Hell, people are already going "there'll only be 4~ more newcomers" because in their minds they've always had Wolf/Icies/Snake. They just... misplaced them like a sock or something.

I don't think every newcomer has to top the last, though. It's never been that way for Smash. Ike definitely did not outdo Snake. Shulk did not outdo Mega Man. Thinking like that just leads to "how can you outdo CLOUD, you have to add GOKU".

But even still, Snake was arguably overtaken by Sonic's reveal, and for 4, while cheating, Mewtwo's reveal set the internet on fire due to the realization that it'd be the first Smash game with DLC(To be fair, outside of Megaman and Pac Man, 4's roster was incredibly tame).

I just feel like "It doesn't have to be the next character shown, but WHAT can trump Ridley?"

Legit, all I can think of is Geno, a character that people have wanted since Brawl times, and has a 'chance', I'd say.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I don't think the starting roster is going to be the original 8 or 12.

There's no way they'd advertise all these newcomers and not slap some of them on the starting roster.

Well we only have 3 newcomers so far and we don't really know how many more to expect. Slapping a few on the starting roster could very well end up meaning slapping a majority of them on there, however, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Conversely, Snake and Sonic were heavily pushed for Brawl but they ended up being unlockable. Same could happen for the newcomers in Ultimate.

I've moaned and groaned about this multiple times already but I'm so worried I'll need to play multiple hours before I can play Ridley. Also to your comment about the majority of newcomers being on the starting roster, that happened the last two games so I don't see why not now.

I like the concept of a random roster I suppose, I just don't want to have to play multiple hours to try out the characters I'm most excited for. I'm hoping at the very least they can all be unlocked in a fun mode simialr to an adventure mode or event mode, so this way I'm having fun while doing it.

But even still, Snake was arguably overtaken by Sonic's reveal, and for 4, while cheating, Mewtwo's reveal set the internet on fire due to the realization that it'd be the first Smash game with DLC(To be fair, outside of Megaman and Pac Man, 4's roster was incredibly tame).

I just feel like "It doesn't have to be the next character shown, but WHAT can trump Ridley?"

Legit, all I can think of is Geno, a character that people have wanted since Brawl times, and has a 'chance', I'd say.

I reallllly don't mean to be bias, but I don't think Geno would live up to Ridley's reveal. Sure he's wanted in the smash community, but he's not that high up compared to characters like King K. Rool and Bandana Dee. Not only that but he's barely known in the casual community. And I'd even say the same about King K. Rool and such. None of them have gotten as much coverage or controversy than Ridley has in the past decade.

Really the only reveal that could currently out do Ridley would be a third party reveal, and a big one. I'm kind of thinking that's why we didn't get one yet at E3.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Side note: IF he was in, I'd like them to go the extra mile and make him low poly Smash 64 styled, compete with Mario's old animations.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I'll go out on a limb and say that under Masterpieces (the demos from the last 2 iterations) we'll see the entirety of Smash 64 be available to play.

I think that would be a bit funny, honestly. In a "yo dawg, I heard you like Smash Bros, so I put some Smash Bros in your Smash Bros!" way.

 

[Shroob]

I've moaned and groaned about this multiple times already but I'm so worried I'll need to play multiple hours before I can play Ridley. Also to your comment about the majority of newcomers being on the starting roster, that happened the last two games so I don't see why not now.

I like the concept of a random roster I suppose, I just don't want to have to play multiple hours to try out the characters I'm most excited for. I'm hoping at the very least they can all be unlocked in a fun mode simialr to an adventure mode or event mode, so this way I'm having fun while doing it.


I reallllly don't mean to be bias, but I don't think Geno would live up to Ridley's reveal. Sure he's wanted in the smash community, but he's not that high up compared to characters like King K. Rool and Bandana Dee. Not only that but he's barely known in the casual community. And I'd even say the same about King K. Rool and such. None of them have gotten as much coverage or controversy than Ridley has in the past decade.

Really the only reveal that could currently out do Ridley would be a third party reveal, and a big one. I'm kind of thinking that's why we didn't get one yet at E3.

I mean, let's be honest.

The people who are most excited for Ridley IS the Smash community. A casual player doesn't know who the **** Ridley is.

New York Nintendo World was chanting "NOT TOO BIG!" on his reveal and all.

 

[TechPowah]

Smash 64 was in the data as a masterpiece for Smash 4, so you wouldn't be too far off for that prediction

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Exactly what I was thinking.


I think that would be a bit funny, honestly. In a "yo dawg, I heard you like Smash Bros, so I put some Smash Bros in your Smash Bros!" way.

And , if he's in and 64 styled as the game's Meta Retro rep (see what I did thar?) completing that game with all 12 characters is how you unlock Metal Mario.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think the fact that a third party character was not revealed at E3 tells me that there probably isn't one on that level in the base game - even if Simon Belmont makes it in, it wouldn't be quite the same.

This is the reason why I've been doubting the inclusion of really big name third-party characters like Sora and Steve in the base roster. If they were playable, why wouldn't they be revealed at the biggest gaming event this year and really blow people's mind?

Reminder to keep in mind when Sakurai started his plan for the game. Definitely somewhere in 2016. Any sort of representation after that year seems unlikely. Mario and Zelda getting stuff from later seems more like an exception to me, as he definitely had inside info, and even then Cappy is an aesthetic thing and Link doesn't have ALL his BOTW abilities. It's why the idea of any XC2 content in the main game seems unlikely even though we know Sakurai loves the game.

Also is probably why Splatoon 1 seems to be a focus and if we get anything from Splatoon 2 it might just be music.

Make sense. It also explains why doesn't have her Samus Returns design.

Character representation will certainly be based mostly in 2016 and before. Items, ATs, stages, and trophies however can and has come from later eras. Those are things that can be added later in development than characters. All the Pokemon XY stuff in Smash 4 being a big example.

Come to think of it, how likely would it even been that Sakurai would have known about Ridley's role in Samus Returns?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

In the end, which character reveals top which is entirely subjective. For example, in the old Brawl days I was slightly less excited for Sonic than when King Dedede was revealed. It more or less depends on which series people care about more.

And , if he's in and 64 styled as the game's Meta Retro rep (see what I did thar?) completing that game with all 12 characters is how you unlock Metal Mario.

Yeah, that'd be rather neat and unique. A lot of work, but neat.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Reminder to keep in mind when Sakurai started his plan for the game. Definitely somewhere in 2016. Any sort of representation after that year seems unlikely. Mario and Zelda getting stuff from later seems more like an exception to me, as he definitely had inside info, and even then Cappy is an aesthetic thing and Link doesn't have ALL his BOTW abilities. It's why the idea of any XC2 content in the main game seems unlikely even though we know Sakurai loves the game.

Also is probably why Splatoon 1 seems to be a focus and if we get anything from Splatoon 2 it might just be music.

I will add that the Splatoon 2 stage has lil' Judd and Pokemon Trainer's final alt is based off Ultra Sun & Moon but such things are aesthetic. (And in the kitten's case, I'm betting ported straight over) Still, that gives a final date for game content being added of November last year. That's probably why we haven't seen much of the New Donk stage.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I mean, let's be honest.

The people who are most excited for Ridley IS the Smash community. A casual player doesn't know who the **** Ridley is.

New York Nintendo World was chanting "NOT TOO BIG!" on his reveal and all.

Alright let me reinstate. Not casual as in I don't really play video games because they might not buy Smash anyway. Casual in the speculation sense, as in I love Nintendo and play all the smash games, but don't necessarily go onto Smashboards everyday or follow daily updates on the game. I know ALOT of people like this.

Those kind of people know Ridley and the Ridley too big arguement. This is mostly due to his exposure on YouTube and via memes. So yea more casual Smash players absolutely knew of the controversy surrounding Ridley. I doubt they know Geno more than oh yeah that's some third party character people like.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I will add that the Splatoon 2 stage has lil' Judd and Pokemon Trainer's final alt is based off Ultra Sun & Moon but such things are aesthetic. (And in the kitten's case, I'm betting ported straight over) Still, that gives a final date for game content being added of November last year. That's probably why we haven't seen much of the New Donk stage.

Keep in mind that Oddysey finished development before January 2017 and Breath of The Wild was delayed multiple times, one of them being for the reason relating to issues with the physics engine. Those two games getting content is no surprise to me.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Keep in mind that Oddysey finished development before January 2017 and Breath of The Wild was delayed multiple times, one of them being for the reason relating to issues with the physics engine. Those two games getting content is no surprise to me.

And BoTW in one shape or form has been known about for years to the point it pretty much repeated what Twilight Princess did and launched on the Next console day 1.

(Side note: Despite stores selling off old WiiU stock for cheap now, WiiU BotW is still full price)

 

[Radical Bones]

Man, it's still so crazy to me that Bomberman is in this game... but as an AT. I know Sakurai didn't have much time to make newcomers but still.

 

[PLATINUM7]

So Bomberman has different types of bombs. I wonder what this one does.

Also anyone think we'll get other third party assists from series that don't have a playable character?

 

[Galgatha]

So, interesting little conspiracy theory, which is more than likely 100% false, but did anybody take a look at the Smash blog today?

Yesterday they did the daily fighter, item, and stage (Mario, Black hole, and Battlefield respectfully)

Today they did Item and music, no fighter. Either A) Nintendo wants to be funny and drop a new fighter on a random day, or B) They are planning on spacing out their "today's fighter" blog posts to help expand the entire roster's placements on the blog until the release date.

Why do I think like this??

 

[Curious Villager]

So Bomberman has different types of bombs. I wonder what this one does.

Also anyone think we'll get other third party assists from series that don't have a playable character?

I think we will, yes. There are quite a number of other third parties they can use such as one of those Super Monkey Ball characters.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Man, it's still so crazy to me that Bomberman is in this game... but as an AT. I know Sakurai didn't have much time to make newcomers but still.

I don't think it was a lack of time that got Bomberman only an assist trophy, but rather? His whole theme in all of his games is ''Place a bomb here and destroy your obstacles and solve puzzles."

While we like to think a guy who lobs bombs around is prime for fighting? He's not all that good of an example of someone who can have their core theme translated into a full functioning moveset. You run out of material fast.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

And BoTW in one shape or form has been known about for years to the point it pretty much repeated what Twilight Princess did and launched on the Next console day 1.

Yup, which is why either of those two games getting representation isn't a valid argument to show that 2017 games are likely to get playable characters (since that is the type of content people care about the most).

I think we will, yes. There are quite a number of other third parties they can use such as one of those Super Monkey Ball characters.

AiAi as an AT would be awesome.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So, interesting little conspiracy theory, which is more than likely 100% false, but did anybody take a look at the Smash blog today?

Yesterday they did the daily fighter, item, and stage (Mario, Black hole, and Battlefield respectfully)

Today they did Item and music, no fighter. Either A) Nintendo wants to be funny and drop a new fighter on a random day, or B) They are planning on spacing out their "today's fighter" blog posts to help expand the entire roster's placements on the blog until the release date.

Why do I think like this??

Maybe they just do one multimedia upload a day (music, video ect.)

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't think it was a lack of time that got Bomberman only an assist trophy, but rather? His whole theme in all of his games is ''Place a bomb here and destroy your obstacles and solve puzzles."

While we like to think a guy who lobs bombs around is prime for fighting? He's not all that good of an example of someone who can have their core theme translated into a full functioning moveset. You run out of material fast.

While I'm not that familiar with the Bomberman franchise other than those multiplayer games and Bomberman Hero for the N64. In the case of the latter, Bomberman had quite a versatile moveset in that game if I recall correctly, especially when you factor in the additional gadgets and Bomb types that he had access to there. I think they could have worked with something with that...

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So Bomberman has different types of bombs. I wonder what this one does.

Also anyone think we'll get other third party assists from series that don't have a playable character?

Seems to be a remote-control bomb, which might be trouble to deal with.

As for third-party assists, I could see Arthur in there.

 

[Staarih]

So, interesting little conspiracy theory, which is more than likely 100% false, but did anybody take a look at the Smash blog today?

Yesterday they did the daily fighter, item, and stage (Mario, Black hole, and Battlefield respectfully)

Today they did Item and music, no fighter. Either A) Nintendo wants to be funny and drop a new fighter on a random day, or B) They are planning on spacing out their "today's fighter" blog posts to help expand the entire roster's placements on the blog until the release date.

Why do I think like this??

They're most likely going to be spacing out the blog posts, giving us a random set of information each day. Even if they're called "Today's fighter" or "Today's item", it only means a highlighted fighter or item... of the ongoing day. Not necessarily that we'll get one each day.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Yup, which is why either of those two games getting representation isn't a valid argument to show that 2017 games are likely to get playable characters (since that is the type of content people care about the most).



AiAi as an AT would be awesome.

Side note: This all seems to help Xenoblade Chronicles X's chances. Too bad the focus on past Smash games puts a bit of doubt on it though.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

They're most likely going to be spacing out the blog posts, giving us a random set of information each day. Even if they're called "Today's fighter" or "Today's item", it only means a highlighted fighter or item... of the ongoing day. Not necessarily that we'll get one each day.

More or less, I noticed there's been a couple days with no updates.

 

[Galgatha]

They're most likely going to be spacing out the blog posts, giving us a random set of information each day. Even if they're called "Today's fighter" or "Today's item", it only means a highlighted fighter or item... of the ongoing day. Not necessarily that we'll get one each day.

Yeah, I know. Just, my mind immediatly went towards "something is going on here" even though I am wrong. Still figured I would add my opinion. /shrug

 

[PLATINUM7]

I don't think it was a lack of time that got Bomberman only an assist trophy, but rather? His whole theme in all of his games is ''Place a bomb here and destroy your obstacles and solve puzzles."

While we like to think a guy who lobs bombs around is prime for fighting? He's not all that good of an example of someone who can have their core theme translated into a full functioning moveset. You run out of material fast.

Well the SSF2 team made a moveset out of him and I'm sure others have as well.

We got movesets for a character who basically just eats in his games , a dog who never really did much to begin with , a gaming peripheral and a moveset made up entirely for a character who had never been outside his vehicle in a game .

I know he's been unable to work things out for characters before, like Ballon Fighter and Excitebiker, but it seems weird to me he couldn't have come up with something for Bomberman.

Then again, whenever we think we've figured Sakurai out he throws another curveball. He could very well of not worked out a moveset that interested him enough.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Seems to be a remote-control bomb, which might be trouble to deal with.

As for third-party assists, I could see Arthur in there.

M. Bison for Assist Trophy; beware of the Psycho Crusher.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I don't think it was a lack of time that got Bomberman only an assist trophy, but rather? His whole theme in all of his games is ''Place a bomb here and destroy your obstacles and solve puzzles."

While we like to think a guy who lobs bombs around is prime for fighting? He's not all that good of an example of someone who can have their core theme translated into a full functioning moveset. You run out of material fast.

Bomberman has had many different weapons and power ups he's used over his 30 year history. Heck, his entire moveset wouldn't even have to use bombs, one distinct power up I remember him having was a jet pack in the bomberman wii ware game. I'm sure there was a reason they chose not to include Bomberman as a playable fighter but it certainly wasn't for lack of a moveset.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

One of the problems with Emily's "leak" was that it was subjective. She says it has characters that will make people jump out of their seats which could be Ridley & Daisy, and I've definitely seen reaction videos of people hype over Snake, Ice Climbers etc. She also said she knows it can't please everyone (or something like that) which leads me to believe she saw some of the disconfirmed like Waluigi.

So even if she did see more than what was at E3 (which I doubt) you can't possibly point to any character. Would King K. Rool make people jump out of their seats? Ansolutely. Would this roster not make everyone happy if it didn't have King K. Rool? Absolutely. Trust me I already went through this with trying to decipher if Ridley was in based on her statement lol.

To add onto this on why you can't take what she said to pinpoint any other character's inclusion, back when Ninka Kiwi did his first leak prior to E3 2014 where no specific roster information was given, he stated his source claimed something like the roster was "amazing" and "would get everyone excited". Then when he was able to reveal what the remaining roster consisted of, instead of it having the likes of Mewtwo, Ridley, and K. Rool like a lot people imagined such a statement about the roster would imply, the roster instead had Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt Dog, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit, clashing with a lot of people had in mind of a "amazing roster that would make everyone happy". Then when pressed about this, Ninka said that was what his source said and how his source admitted how he liked "weird and unconventional characters".

So in short, what constitutes a roster that will "make people jump out of their seat" is highly subjective to everyone, and as such what would be such a roster to someone else won't necessarily be such a roster to you.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Bomberman has had many different weapons and power ups he's used over his 30 year history. Heck, his entire moveset wouldn't even have to use bombs, one distinct power up I remember him having was a jet pack in the bomberman wii ware game. I'm sure there was a reason they chose not to include Bomberman as a playable fighter but it certainly wasn't for lack of a moveset.

You can say that, but you can't say that about Sakurai, no more than I really can, I just feel that might be the reason why. I mean the most iconic things about his gameplay are present in his assist trophy, and maybe Sakurai didn't really invest or think about any of the power ups or any of that.

It's hard to know, but I'm sure at some point he'll specify his decision as to why Bomberman is an assist trophy in an interview after game's release.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think there's a rumour that Konami put up an embargo for a game they revealed behind closed doors. That embargo should possibly lift, and if it's possibly a Castlevania entry, then it bodes very well for Simon's chances.

Wasn't the embargo supposed to lift on Wednesday...? Today is Wednesday... and the Smash Blog just showed Bomberman Assist Trophy. Hmm... coincidence or not?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The embargo was for the sports game.

There are no Castlevania games coming.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

So Bomberman has different types of bombs. I wonder what this one does.

Also anyone think we'll get other third party assists from series that don't have a playable character?

Sakurai's statement during when Bomberman got revealed of "maybe an unexpected guest will photobomb your battle" seems to imply that there will be more third party assist trophies.

 

[Arcadenik]

yeah metal mario screams fake to me cause of the metal box, also i really am banking on the original 12 being the top of the CSS and if you give one of them an echo fighter it screws up the CSS having that going for it.

But that's assuming Metal Mario would use the FLUDD.

The closest to Smash 64 Mario we have is Dr. Mario. I think Metal Mario could feasibly be Dr. Mario's Echo Fighter. All they have to do is change the pills back to fireballs. Ha! Ironic considering Dr. Mario got in the game because they changed the fireballs to pills.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I just feel like "It doesn't have to be the next character shown, but WHAT can trump Ridley?"

Interesting point, since this is subjective. I feel that that's different for every person. It does raise an interesting discussion topic, and kinda goes with what @Lampy's been talking about before...

Is there any one character who would hype you to the point that you don't even care about the rest of the roster? And conversely, is there any one character who would make you so annoyed you'd not buy the game?

I don't think there's a single character that would make me not buy the game. I'm so hyped for Ridley and Squirtle, so I feel like I'd be amenable to any character they added. Sure, there's a bunch of names flung around that make me roll my eyes or grumble, but nobody is a no-buy situation.

But for me, if by some miracle Dovahkiin is in, I would accept even Shrek in the game. I love Skyrim and the Elder Scrolls series, but I'd never even considered him on the roster until all of the third party DLC and Skyrim's Switch port (really bummed I didn't get to vote him on the ballot). I feel like he'd have an awesome moveset, and I'd absolutely love to see the dragonslayer fighting Ridley.