Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Tree Gelbman]

Just put Dixie's ponytail on her butt and call it a day. Problem solved!

Dixie's wig? Snatched.
Placed? On da butt.
Dixie? Shooketh.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Counterpoint:
Sakurai is all about balancing requests between the Western and Eastern fanbases. Little Mac's fanbase was located solely in the West, Japan could've cared less for him. I think Lip can get in as a Japan-favored rep.

Also, when was the last time Sakurai cared about that sort of representation for the retro rep? (R.O.B. was an American "accessory" to sell NES consoles).

Plus, while Lip's game technically is Japan only, the series isn't. Panel de Pon has shown up in many other names here in America since the SNES era, unlike Takamaru, whose game was only re-released in the west very recently (to little fanfare as well).

I think either Lip or Ayumi Tachibana is going to be our retro WTF rep, but Lip could definitely get in this time.

Magical Girl Lip in Smash Bros. please.

Little Mac still exists in Japan even if he wasn't super popular there, Lip literally doesn't exist in the west and even if her games are still here she isn't in them and they're completely rebranded to something else. Lip's chances don't look good imo.

I'm the last person you need to lecture on the merits of Dixie Kong. I can speedrun the DKC trilogy in my sleep.

People always seem to think that clones are just gonna function like dumb Brawl skin mods. Sak's not just gonna slap Dixie on Diddy's skeleton and call it a day. Luci and Dark Pit saw very little changes because they were upgraded alt costumes. In what little we've seen of Daisy it's obvious she's been completely re-animated to suit her characterization. That's what would happen with a Dixie echo. Yes, the moveset isn't perfect, but within the confines of that moveset, Sakurai would still allow her real character to come through. And that'll be true for any new echoes.

Yeah adding some unique taunts but keeping the moveset completely the same still really wouldn't represent dixie properly to me. Also Daisy hasn't been completely reanimated, she has a different idle, taunts and victory animation, the rest is the same.

 

[monadoboy]

So, about those Echoes and Dixie...

It makes little sense for Lucina to fight like Marth. Almost none. It's as much of a stretch as the Dixie stuff.
Chrom taught her how to fight, and Chrom taught himself how to fight, so the descendant thing is off.
Falchion has been reforged and reshaped several times, and anything that isn't the blade has been completely remade (Lucina/Owain support), so canonically their swords are different, which explains it being twice the size. (Awakening Falchion has that big rod of steel that protrudes from the hilt, possibly what gives it the size difference)
A small bit of character development she underwent is learning not to rely on the name of Marth.

Lucina
...... After your murder and Grima's return, I took the name Marth and fought back. I prayed to the Hero-King for a small part of the strength he used to save the world. But I need this subterfuge no longer. I choose to fight as Lucina now. The name that reminds me of the strength in the man and woman who chose it.

Yeah, so Dixie wouldn't use her hair if she was an Echo? Lucina doesn't have Aether, her sword was shrunk and her access to lances is ignored completely. Even her unique stance is ignored.

Lucina is proof that if a character loosely fits, they can be an Echo, regardless of potential or misrepresentation or whatever. In the end, more people will be happy to play as them than those who'd be disappointed. I chose to enjoy clone Lucina even if it undermines her character.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

So, about those Echoes and Dixie...

It makes little sense for Lucina to fight like Marth. Almost none. It's as much of a stretch as the Dixie stuff.
Chrom taught her how to fight, and Chrom taught himself how to fight, so the descendant thing is off.
Falchion has been reforged and reshaped several times, and anything that isn't the blade has been completely remade (Lucina/Owain support), so canonically their swords are different, which explains it being twice the size. (Awakening Falchion has that big rod of steel that protrudes from the hilt, possibly what gives it the size difference)
A small bit of character development she underwent is learning not to rely on the name of Marth.


Yeah, so Dixie wouldn't use her hair if she was an Echo? Lucina doesn't have Aether, her sword was shrunk and her access to lances is ignored completely. Even her unique stance is ignored.

Lucina is proof that if a character loosely fits, they can be an Echo, regardless of potential or misrepresentation or whatever. In the end, more people will be happy to play as them than those who'd be disappointed. I chose to enjoy clone Lucina even if it undermines her character.

But the falchion is still her main weapon, she's still a character who pretends to be marth, even if their fighting styles don't match up, her playing like Marth isn't crazy out of character. Dixie literally not using her main weapon throughout her moveset would just be dumb.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Little Mac still exists in Japan even if he wasn't super popular there, Lip literally doesn't exist in the west and even if her games are still here she isn't in them and they're completely rebranded to something else. Lip's chances don't look good imo.


Yeah adding some unique taunts but keeping the moveset completely the same still really wouldn't represent dixie properly to me. Also Daisy hasn't been completely reanimated, she has a different idle, taunts and victory animation, the rest is the same.

It doesnt matter if it would work for you. There is nothing stopping dixie from physically performing diddy's moveset. Out of the 3 echos we already have, you can make the same argument that they shouldnt fight like their parent clone, but they do.

Dixie being an echo for diddy is a low hanging fruit, and people should come around to the idea of it being a boon for her being included at all.

People say she could get in on her own merits, but she hasn't. She has nothing going for her now that she didnt have back pre brawl
In fact, she's even lost relevancy over the years. Now she has echo viability going for her. Pride shouldnt keep you from wanting the characters you want just because you feel it isnt enough.

 

[vaanrose]

Yeah adding some unique taunts but keeping the moveset completely the same still really wouldn't represent dixie properly to me. Also Daisy hasn't been completely reanimated, she has a different idle, taunts and victory animation, the rest is the same.

It's not just idles and taunts. It's the way she performs the same actions.

Daisy swings her golf club with one arm, while Peach keeps proper form.

When Peach hides behind Toad, she shows concern/fear, while Daisy doesn't give two ****s, lol.

That's what I'm talking about. Mechanically the moves are still identical, but care is given to reframe them to suit her personality. Dixie would get the same.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I found out how Ridley finally got his spot in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: And they say that hard work doesn't pay off.

If Sakurai is taking fan demand into account more this game then I think Lip's dedicated fanbase may be enough to get her in as the retro representative. Besides Lip I have no idea who they have to choose from this time around.

 

[PLATINUM7]

It doesnt matter if it would work for you. There is nothing stopping dixie from physically performing diddy's moveset. Out of the 3 echos we already have, you can make the same argument that they shouldnt fight like their parent clone, but they do.

Dixie being an echo for diddy is a low hanging fruit, and people should come around to the idea of it being a boon for her being included at all.

People say she could get in on her own merits, but she hasn't. She has nothing going for her now that she didnt have back pre brawl
In fact, she's even lost relevancy over the years. Now she has echo viability going for her. Pride shouldnt keep you from wanting the characters you want just because you feel it isnt enough.

Tropical Freeze makes her relevant again.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

It's not just idles and taunts. It's the way she performs the same actions.

Daisy swings her golf club with one arm, while Peach keeps proper form.

When Peach hides behind Toad, she shows concern/fear, while Daisy doesn't give two ****s, lol.

That's what I'm talking about. Mechanically the moves are still identical, but care is given to reframe them to suit her personality. Dixie would get the same.

I didn't know about those but even still they're very slight alterations, doing some small things like that isn't gonna suddenly make Diddy's moveset fit Dixie when she's literally not using her main weapon in said moveset.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I, personally, am banking on there being no retro rep in this game at all (unless folks like Geno or Simon Belmont count), although if there does turn out to be one, I think Lip's just about the only realistic option left at this point, other than maybe Excitebiker.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

It doesnt matter if it would work for you. There is nothing stopping dixie from physically performing diddy's moveset. Out of the 3 echos we already have, you can make the same argument that they shouldnt fight like their parent clone, but they do.

Dixie being an echo for diddy is a low hanging fruit, and people should come around to the idea of it being a boon for her being included at all.

People say she could get in on her own merits, but she hasn't. She has nothing going for her now that she didnt have back pre brawl
In fact, she's even lost relevancy over the years. Now she has echo viability going for her. Pride shouldnt keep you from wanting the characters you want just because you feel it isnt enough.

There's nothing stopping her but it wouldn't represent her accurately and we all know that that's something sakurai pays close attention to when designing characters, Dixie not using her main weapon would be a major oversight and I can't see him doing that.

The 3 clones fighting like their parent clone make sense, what's lucina's main weapon? the falchion, thus she fights like marth. What's Dark Pit's main weapon? the silver bow, makes sense.

Also how has she lost relevancy? She's more relevant than she's been in years now lmao, and it's quite obvious why she hasn't been in yet, Brawl rightfully prioritised Diddy and in 2012 when smash 4 rolled around she wasn't relevant.

 

[Deleted member]

Am I the only one that thinks King K. Rool is very likely?
I have said this before, but Sakurai wants to bring up hype with his Ultimate game. Like he added Ridley despite him saying he was too big three years ago. Who agrees?

 

[CannonStreak]

Am I the only one that thinks King K. Rool is very likely?
I have said this before, but Sakurai wants to bring up hype with his Ultimate game. Like he added Ridley despite him saying he was too big three years ago. Who agrees?

I think he is likely. I am just worried Sakurai won't add him for whatever reason despite his ballot performance and fan demand. But you are not alone.

 

[Sharkarat]

Okay I redit my comparision, Dorf is only shrunk by about 20% not 25%

Spoiler: Crude edit showing size diffence between Smash and LoZ, using the first image for smash comparision i could find.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Am I the only one that thinks King K. Rool is very likely?
I have said this before, but Sakurai wants to bring up hype with his Ultimate game. Like he added Ridley despite him saying he was too big three years ago. Who agrees?

I think he's likely, they made a new model just for a mii costume which says a lot and pleasing fans really seems to be the goal of this game

 

[Blargg888]

You know, one thing that I really dislike about Smash Ultimate is the sound effects. They took away almost every character's unique sound effects. Roy doesn't seem to have his unique hit sound anymore, meteor smashes don't have their unique sound, and there's lots of other stuff that's missing.

I really hope that the current Sfx are just placeholders and that we get the more unique sfx back in the final build.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Seeing Dixie not fly with her helicoptor hair would feel wrong.

...I could see Dixie MAYBE being a semi clone of Diddy with a unique up special and a different grab animation, but as an Echo she'd feel weird.

Toad is like the good guy variant of a Goomba.

And who wants to play as a goomba in Smash?

Me.

For both species actually. Goombella's freaking adorable for one thing.

Let's get Bandana Waddle Dee in there and we can get some kingdom war based events going. "FOR THE MONARCH!"

 

[Wyoming]

I didn't think we'd find topics to circle around to less than a week after that gargantuan direct lol

People will have to agree to disagree on Dixie being an echo. I personally think it could work due to similar builds and some copied abilities from the DK Universe. The main issue is her ponytail which I agree is an important part of her character, but that hasn't stopped Sakurai before.

Lest we forget the only time Sakurai considered her in the past was as Diddy's tag team partner, meaning they must have shared a very similar fighting style if not exactly the same like Popo and Nana. We'll never truly know, but it is possible.

 

[monadoboy]

But the falchion is still her main weapon, she's still a character who pretends to be marth, even if their fighting styles don't match up, her playing like Marth isn't crazy out of character. Dixie literally not using her main weapon throughout her moveset would just be dumb.

It's not exactly the same weapon when it's twice the size. Like, you'd have to be Goku or superhuman to use Awakening's Falchion like Shadow Dragon/Mystery Falchion. The only thing the swords share in common is the Naga fang edge of the blade.
And Ike, a non-clone, doesn't use the most defining trait of Ragnel (shooting beams) so not even original fighters are spared from missing their main thing.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I didn't think we'd find topics to circle around to less than a week after that gargantuan direct lol

People will have to agree to disagree on Dixie being an echo. I personally think it could work due to similar builds and some copied abilities from the DK Universe. The main issue is her ponytail which I agree is an important part of her character, but that hasn't stopped Sakurai before.

Lest we forget the only time Sakurai considered her in the past was as Diddy's tag team partner, meaning they must have shared a very similar fighting style if not exactly the same like Popo and Nana. We'll never truly know, but it is possible.

They were meant to be a tag team though meaning they would switch out like a transforming character just like in the DKC games, that tells me at least that they would have different movesets

 

[PLATINUM7]

You know, one thing that I really dislike about Smash Ultimate is the sound effects. They took away almost every character's unique sound effects. Roy doesn't seem to have his unique hit sound anymore, meteor smashes don't have their unique sound, and there's lots of other stuff that's missing.

I really hope that the current Sfx are just placeholders and that we get the more unique sfx back in the final build.

I'm pretty sure Roy's sound effects were just the punch/kick sounds rather than the sword sounds.

 

[Arcadenik]

They were meant to be a tag team though meaning they would switch out like a transforming character just like in the DKC games, that tells me at least that they would have different movesets

This is what I think too.

Plus Diddy's banana throw animation looks odd when I first saw it in Brawl. It almost looks as if he was holding out his hand for Dixie to tag him.

 

[Hinata]

The only real challenge of a Dixie echo is animating her hair for a lot of things.

That is assuming there are no tail attacks on Diddy anymore.

Just put her hair where Diddy's tail is.

It's not hard, guys.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

It's not exactly the same weapon when it's twice the size. Like, you'd have to be Goku or superhuman to use Awakening's Falchion like Shadow Dragon/Mystery Falchion. The only thing the swords share in common is the Naga fang edge of the blade.
And Ike, a non-clone, doesn't use the most defining trait of Ragnel (shooting beams) so not even original fighters are spared from missing their main thing.

Yeah, but Link already has that shooting beam function in Ultimate, so Sakurai didn't want to make Ike seem like a clone :^)

/s btw

I, personally, am banking on there being no retro rep in this game at all (unless folks like Geno or Simon Belmont count), although if there does turn out to be one, I think Lip's just about the only realistic option left at this point, other than maybe Excitebiker.

I'd wager that Simon counts at the very least, considering his game series originated around that time anyway.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Unfortunately, when it comes to the "To be an echo, or not to be" argument, I think some fans are just going to have to consider the pros and cons for some characters getting in as an echo.

The pros of a character being an echo:
-They're in the game at all when they otherwise may not have been added

The cons:
-they play like another character that you happen to not like as much

That seems to be about it. I'm down for unique characters if they warrant it, but echo fighters (clones) seem to be reserved for characters that otherwise wouldn't have been added. So, even if they might be capable of stuff that isn't added to their moveset in Smash, they weren't added with that in mind in the first place. They were added because they were easy additions with similarities.

That's it. That's what an echo character is. I think Dixie is in an awkward position to be honest, as there are things that would make her different from Diddy. There is quite a bit that would maker her viable as an echo

I think it really depends on how far Sakurai would stretch the definition of "echo fighter". Does echo fighter mean "mostly the same with a few tweaks to animations here or there"? (For example, Lucina's shield breaker has a different animation from Marth). It's not quite the same with Dixie because she doesn't use the popgun like Diddy does...but does a different animation with Gum potentially introduce different properties? Who knows?

 

[Zinith]

Or a pro would be that they play like another character you really REALLY like...

 

[GaroMaster]

So, this game is called; "Super Smash Bros Ultimate"

Now, what would define Ultimate for you?
I'll give some rules for this game.

You are to add up to "10" Nintendo characters/first n' seond party characters.
And you can have up to "5" 3rd parties.

Now, it's to personalize what would for "you" make the Smash from where it currently is, to the "Ultimate".
Which characters are left, who are realizable still that is.

I'll write mine, but in the mean time, I'd love to hear from your perspectives.
Try to reason why they'd be a good fit to make it your ultimate.

For Nintendo characters:
1.) King K. Rool - Far and away my most wanted Nintendo character and third most wanted character overall, I truly feel as though K. Rool is one of the few glaring omissions on this spectacular roster. He's one of the last major Nintendo villains to not be playable yet and with Wolf returning and Ridley making his grand debut, now is the time for K. Rool to get in on the villain action. Many people (myself included) have wanted him in the game and have waited quite a long time for him to come. Needless to say, K. Rool is, in my eyes, one of the last essential Nintendo characters yet to be in Smash.
2.) Dixie Kong - If not for K. Rool, Dixie would be my most wanted DK character. Although I hear many people suggest her as a potential Echo Fighter, I disagree. Dixie is more than unique enough due to her hair, bubblegum, etc. Plus, she was the star of DKC3 and made a recent appearance in Tropical Freeze. I wouldn't mind seeing Dixie as a semi clone, but I do believe Dixie deserves to be added in.
3.) Chorus Kids - Although not a personal want, I really like the concept of the Chorus Kids being in Smash. Plus, I feel as though RH should get some love.
4.) Ashley - I think it would be cool to see a character solely from Warioware make it in to Smash. It's still one of my favorite Nintendo series.
5.) Machamp - My dream pick for a new Pokemon rep. I realize it won't happen as we already have 7 (or 9) Pokemon characters and Gen 7 might be prioritized for an inclusion, but honestly? I really loved Pokken. Machamp was my main and quickly grew to be one of my favorite Pokemon. A Pokken rep isn't a popular suggestion, but I'd be content. Make Goro his Echo Fighter while you're at it.
Speaking of 3rd parties:
1.) Rayman - I said it once and I'll say it again. Rayman is not only my wanted character, but he was the reason I made a Smashboards account. To me, he is unique, iconic, and would be a very cool addition to the roster. Those facial expressions and cartoony design would make him fit like a glove in Ultimate's art style and roster. Most of all, though, I absolutely love his games. Rayman 2 is my childhood while Origins and Legends were modern platforming masterpieces. Rayman may not have the brand recognition of Sonic, Pacman, Final Fantasy, or Street Fighter or the hardcore following that Mega Man, Metal Gear Solid, or Castlevania enjoy. Heck, most people in Japan don't even know who he is. But you know what he is? Rayman is weird and I think Smash could benefit from having such a strange addition.
2. Banjo-Kazooie - The Banjo games on the N64 were some of my favorites growing up. I have intense nostalgia for these games and it would be a dream come true if they were added in. The only reason why they're not higher is because they are owned by Microsoft, but given the fact that Phil Spencer would be cool with their inclusion and Microsoft and Nintendo have been buddy buddy lately, there is hope.
3.) Doctor Eggman - Out of all the third party franchises, the Sonic series is the most deserving of another character. Sonic has such a diverse cast of characters, so picking one is tough. For my money, though, Eggman is my top choice. As much as Tails is Sonic's sidekick, I feel as though Eggman could stand out next to Sonic both visually and moveset wise. Plus, he's easily one of the most iconic video game villains. Who DOESN'T want to see Bowser vs Eggman?
Really, though, add in either Rayman or K. Rool and I would be very satisfied. Add in both, though? I don't think I could handle that.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Unfortunately, when it comes to the "To be an echo, or not to be" argument, I think some fans are just going to have to consider the pros and cons for some characters getting in as an echo.

The pros of a character being an echo:
-They're in the game at all when they otherwise may not have been added

The cons:
-they play like another character that you happen to not like as much

That seems to be about it. I'm down for unique characters if they warrant it, but echo fighters (clones) seem to be reserved for characters that otherwise wouldn't have been added. So, even if they might be capable of stuff that isn't added to their moveset in Smash, they weren't added with that in mind in the first place. They were added because they were easy additions with similarities.

That's it. That's what an echo character is. I think Dixie is in an awkward position to be honest, as there are things that would make her different from Diddy. There is quite a bit that would maker her viable as an echo

I think it really depends on how far Sakurai would stretch the definition of "echo fighter". Does echo fighter mean "mostly the same with a few tweaks to animations here or there"? (For example, Lucina's shield breaker has a different animation from Marth). It's not quite the same with Dixie because she doesn't use the popgun like Diddy does...but does a different animation with Gum potentially introduce different properties? Who knows?

Well Lucina and Dark Pit are considered echos while Pichu and Young Link aren't if that says anything.

And for the record the majority of us happen to like Diddy, so not sure where you pulled the "character you may not like as much" idea from.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Hey I have a question someone can hopefully help me with. Does the smash site just flat out not work on other's phones?

Like for the characters pages none of the pictures load like such:

And even worse, the smash blog doesn't load any posts:

Any one else have this issue on mobile and know how to fix? So far switching to desktop site isn't fixing it :/

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

And another thing, why are we suddenly thinking that there's gonna be 10-20 echo fighters on the roster?

As far as I'm aware all an echo fighters really is is an official term for clones like Lucina and Dark Pit, characters who share the exact same moveset with minimal changes made to them, unlike other clones like Dr. Mario and Pichu.

Ignoring the obvious "Everyone is Back!" theme, why would this new name make things any different? I wouldn't be surprised if Daisy was actually added late in development like Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit were.

 

[Idon]

And another thing, why are we suddenly thinking that there's gonna be 10-20 echo fighters on the roster?

As far as I'm aware all an echo fighters really is is an official definition for clones like Lucina and Dark Pit, characters who share the exact same moveset with minimal changes made to them, unlike other clones like Dr. Mario and Pichu.

Ignoring the obvious "Everyone is Back!" theme, why would this new name make things any different? I wouldn't be surprised if Daisy was actually added late in development like Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit were.

People are operating under the assumption that Sakurai wouldn't just create a new label just for one new character.

Ignoring the fact that creating a label is literally the easiest thing in the world and doesn't really say anything.

 

[Skyblade12]

Avalugg will be a great Omega version of Pokefloats. I’m not sure about the Battlefield version, though.

 

[Slavic]

Avalugg will be a great Omega version of Pokefloats. I’m not sure about the Battlefield version, though.

Avalugg + 3 Unown.

 

[ErenJager]

I don't know why but im really starting to believe Simon is in Smash.....

Hopefully we get Alvin and Theodore as assists if that's the case.

 

[vaanrose]

People are operating under the assumption that Sakurai wouldn't just create a new label just for one new character.

Ignoring the fact that creating a label is literally the easiest thing in the world and doesn't really say anything.

It's not just a relabel.

It's a complete re-framing of the entire concept.

For years, people have complained about clones taking up slots. If the roster has 66 characters but three of them are clones, that's three wasted slots that could have gone to better, more realized characters. But the echo name, and more specifically, the fact that they share a number with their parent, changes the narrative. Daisy, Lucina and Dark Pit don't "count", anymore. It's not 66 characters and three of them are clones, it's 63 characters+some extras.

It's clever marketing and it's worked, lol. People are excited at the prospect of more clones now. And from my perspective, I don't see the need for this re-branding unless they're anticipating adding more and are trying to pre-emptively deter complaints.

 

[Arcadenik]

Hey I have a question someone can hopefully help me with. Does the smash site just flat out not work on other's phones?

Like for the characters pages none of the pictures load like such:
And even worse, the smash blog doesn't load any posts:


Any one else have this issue on mobile and know how to fix? So far switching to desktop site isn't fixing it :/

Charge your phone and maybe the pictures will show.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Well Lucina and Dark Pit are considered echos while Pichu and Young Link aren't if that says anything.

And for the record the majority of us happen to like Diddy, so not sure where you pulled the "character you may not like as much" idea from.

That part of it wasn’t necessarily that somebody doesn’t like Diddy, that’s not what I meant. It’s that, as far as Smash, you prefer to be playing as Dixie, even if she had a similar moveset.

None of my post was really directed at anybody in particular.

 

[ErenJager]

There's also Blaziken to keep in mind.

Echo fighter Wes with Mudkip, Grovyle, and Blaziken

not srs




ok semi srs



jk not srs




totally srs.

 

[Deleted member]

Goddammit.

I got an update about the embargoed Konami game. It isn't Castlevania. The game under embargo is just their Sports game for Switch (Hyper Sports R) for some reason.

Don't know what this means for Simon in Smash (I will ask him about that), but it means that the Castlevania series is still in limbo.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Echo fighter Wes with Mudkip, Grovyle, and Blaziken

not srs




ok semi srs



jk not srs




totally srs.

I will mark the **** out seeing Grovyle and Blaziken