Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[YoshiandToad]

Don't lie to me. How many of you saw the "Everyone is here!" trailer, got hyped for all the characters, saw the title reveal and thought, "Wait, where the **** is Luigi and/or Yoshi?" Honest answers...

ME. They're my two favourite veterans. I WAS SWEATING.

 

[Zinith]

I'd be honored to have my favourite character be the grand-final reveal.

I really didn't get that feel. I got a "oh look, here's the comic relief joke characters" vibe. Kinda like Tatsu from Xenoblade X

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I'm surprised that no one mentioned this character when talking about potential echo fighters.

Spoiler

View attachment 148202

I think Classic Sonic would make for a better alt costume.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Side note: Do we know if Verg leak is legit? I see no Simon Belmont.

Verg never said Simon would be revealed at E3, only Ridley.

So the leak still stands.

 

[KingIceSonic]

I wonder how many echo fighters this game will have. I am guessing that it will have a lot(Maybe 5 more)

The fact that they gave it a name + the fact that they were running out of time tells me that these characters weren't just added at the end during their spare time

I'm guessing that they decided it was better to make 5-6 echoes than 1-2 newcomers. In the last game they only added Lucina and DP because they have time left over but this time it seems like they wanted to beef up the roster to please people. If they just continued to make full characters then the roster might REALLY look small(5 newcomers compared to WiiU that had 17)

Idk how I feel about this. On one hand there won't be that many unique newcomers but on the other hand a lot more people will be happy.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I think Classic Sonic would make for a better alt costume.

height difference would just make him a completely new character like toon link

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verg never said Simon would be revealed at E3, only Ridley.

So the leak still stands.

Didn't he also say some Castlevania games would be revealed during e3 or something like that?

That's actually something that could hurt the leak. People need to stop latching onto Simon as somehow it matters if he shows up now or later. It doesn't. He's in the game was all he really said about it. Same with Minecraft content, though I think the Minecraft part was a different source.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Verg never said Simon would be revealed at E3, only Ridley.

So the leak still stands.

Ah, I see. Well, then I look forward to the next few months of reveals

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Didn't he also say some Castlevania games would be revealed during e3 or something like that?

That's actually something that could hurt the leak. People need to stop latching onto Simon as somehow it matters if he shows up now or later. It doesn't. He's in the game was all he really said about it. Same with Minecraft content, though I think the Minecraft part was a different source.

Id say Konami being back on board just gives Simon a bigger chance

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Hmm...I actually wonder which one would suit this design more: Southern gruff accent or British? I am leaning towards the latter personally.

Since he's based on the Wolf from Star Fox Zero, the british voice makes sense. I also like the british one more tbh and think it fits his character better.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Umm... do people really think we're gonna see every character revealed before the game comes out?

Simply put, no. Sakurai always leave some surprise characters for the fans to discover on their own when the game drops. Just because we don't have many opportunities for character reveals in the coming months doesn't mean we're only gonna have three more unique newcomers this game. Anyone who's spitballing some crazy low number in anticipation for this is setting themselves up for a rude awakening.

Furthermore, I don't expect standalone reveals for Echo Fighters, at least not accompanied by a unique newcomer of some kind. Sitting through a Nintendo Direct only to be treated to a trailer for a glorified Alt. Costume to an already existing fighter would just be a massive hypekiller for many, myself included. Maybe if the Smash Blog turns out to be a Dojo-type deal where we get new reveals every day, I can see this happening, but other than that, no.

I, personally, am gonna go out on a limb and guess that we're getting 8 or 9 unique newcomers and around 5 new Echo Fighters in the base roster, including the ones that are already confirmed. Nearly every Smash title before this one has had a newcomer count somewhere in the mid-high teens - 12 for 64, 14 for Melee, 18 for Brawl, and 15 for base roster Sm4sh (not counting Lucina and Dark Pit as they're essentially Echos). Even if we forgo all logic and consider veterans who weren't in the previous game as an equal workload to adding an entirely new fighter (which it almost certainly isn't, considering they have past character data to work with), we've only been shown 11 "new" characters so far, counting Squirtle and Ivysaur as separate fighters and obviously not counting Daisy. We would still need to see at least 4 or 5 more unique newcomers to hit the average number of "new" fighters for a Smash game, and I'm willing to bump that number up a bit considering my previous statement about how adding a long lost veteran =/= implementing an entirely new character. Besides, we know Sakurai likes to expand the number of newcomers each game - the only time he hasn't been able to do this was with Smash 4's base roster. Therefore, I see no need to lowball so much as to say there are only going to be 5 unique newcomers in this game, although I'm hardly expecting a newcomer count up in the teens like we've gotten in previous games.

So, that's my mathematical, overly meticulous rationale. Feel free to take me up on it if you feel like I'm expecting too much.

So it looks like only a handful of people were wondering whether Luigi and/or Yoshi was when the title was revealed. That's no good!! And no, just "assuming" they would be there is no excuse.

Luckily I'll do my best to change that!!!

...how isn't it? It literally said "Everyone is HERE" during the trailer, so I think it's reasonable to assume that Luigi and Yoshi will, in fact, be there after hearing that. Something tells me you're being more than a bit overzealous at this point.

 

[Radical Bones]

I really didn't get that feel. I got a "oh look, here's the comic relief joke characters" vibe. Kinda like Tatsu from Xenoblade X

But... Luigi is the comic relief character...
Have you not played any of the Mario and Luigi games, Mario Sports games or... well... any of his games at all?

Not trying to be rude but I think you're making too big a deal out of this.

 

[Zerp]

I really didn't get that feel. I got a "oh look, here's the comic relief joke characters" vibe. Kinda like Tatsu from Xenoblade X

Huh, Pichu + Jigglypuff were paired together and were presented immediately after the big "EVERYONE IS HERE!" showed up, and Yoshi + Luigi were last, perhaps this means they've passed down the torch of their former roles to someone else...

 

[SquashiniKun]

How would you feel if we got an echo fighter of Pokemon Trainer as the Gen 7 Pokemon Rep?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

How would you feel if we got an echo fighter of Pokemon Trainer as the Gen 7 Pokemon Rep?

I feel like we're getting out of hand pitching echo fighters now.

 

[Mogu]

Well, the Smash Bros Blog updated for today. It's not anything too exciting and new however

.

 

[PLATINUM7]

There is that comment from Bill saying there'll be more surprises for Smash later in the year.

How would you feel if we got an echo fighter of Pokemon Trainer as the Gen 7 Pokemon Rep?

How would that work? Clones of each of their Pokemon? Which gen 7 Pokemon could even be used for that?

Unless you mean a new Trainer with 3 whole new Pokemon which isn't really an echo, nor does it seem feasible given the size of the roster already and Sakurai hoping we don't expect too many newcomers.

 

[Pokechu]

I feel like we're getting out of hand pitching echo fighters now.

Are you sure? We need Sandbag as a Mario echo before we can call it quits.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I saw some earlier discussion regarding SF reps being included as Echo Fighters, and I'd be totally down for Ken and/or Akuma being in as Ryu Echo Fighters.

If Sakurai really wants to, he can get away with Ken having the same final smashes since Ken technically could do a Shinku Hadouken in MSHvSF

Well, the Smash Bros Blog updated for today. It's not anything too exciting and new howeverView attachment 148216.

Is there an official sandbag plushie? I'd totally get one if it exists.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well, the Smash Bros Blog updated for today. It's not anything too exciting and new howeverView attachment 148216.

PLAYABLE SANDBAG!

 

[PLATINUM7]

Well, the Smash Bros Blog updated for today. It's not anything too exciting and new howeverView attachment 148216.

I want a Sandbag for my home.

Just look at it.

 

[Curious Villager]

How would you feel if we got an echo fighter of Pokemon Trainer as the Gen 7 Pokemon Rep?

Assuming you're implying what I think you are, I don't think that's how echo fighters work...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Don't lie to me. How many of you saw the "Everyone is here!" trailer, got hyped for all the characters, saw the title reveal and thought, "Wait, where the **** is Luigi and/or Yoshi?" Honest answers...

I was kind of curious about Yoshi and Luigi. Those two have often been stuck in Mario's shadow, but I guess being revealed last is supposed to be a reference to the fact that they're typically portrayed as Mario's sidekicks in the mainstream Super Mario titles.

 

[MBRedboy31]

How would you feel if we got an echo fighter of Pokemon Trainer as the Gen 7 Pokemon Rep?

Unless you can think of different Pokemon that go perfectly over Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, it would barely be a visual difference, as the Pokemon are much more important in their moveset than the Trainer is. There would be stat differences, sure, but it wouldn't really do much to represent Gen 7. It probably makes more sense to make them skins in the same way Leaf is a skin, if they can't be a wholly unique character rather than either a clone or an echo, actually.

 

[KingIceSonic]

Well, the Smash Bros Blog updated for today. It's not anything too exciting and new howeverView attachment 148216.

Sandbag confirmed as playable

 

[StrangeMann]

I'm going to play an interesting game of messing with the CSS to get a logical newcomer count, assuming a rectangular block is our character select screen (the exceptions to this rule are smash 4 post dlc and melee)

Spoiler: Lots of Images

lets begin with the css we have now

It's pretty safe to assume that that the black space becomes mostly filled with the passage of time.
Right now it's at an aspect ratio of 4 by 8 with the bottom row missing one spot. Of the 66 known characters, only 30 are present here.
We can't just double the css by every dimension otherwise we'd end up with an 8 by 16, which is super unmanageable.
Lets just assume for a second that instead each dimension is multiplied by 1.5 to get a 6 by 12 roster.
a 6 by 12 roster implies that there are 72 slots for the taking total, and we know who possess 67 of those slots, leaving 5 remaining spaces up for grabs including more echoes. This is about on par with what Sakurai said about not expecting too many newcomers. This assumes Lucina/Dark Pit/Daisy take up their own spaces on the roster. If not, then there are roughly 8 spaces left.
There's more evidence however that suggests that the roster is likely to be 6 by 12 on launch: Each character icon (in a solo battle) should allow for space for 2 character selection buttons (the P1 and P2 buttons) in width. Right now, each character selection portrait is roughly 3 buttons wide and 2 buttons tall. If each portrait is scaled to be 2/3 as wide (to allow for 3/2 the characters), we would have enough space for there to be 2 buttons side to side to each other in each portrait. Let me make an example:

Hi res image top left of the hand and the enlarged player button hovering over the Ridley portrait, with the upper right being before the button is on the image and the bottom right being the button placed on the image. The button in hand is slightly larger than the placed button, but 3 enlarged buttons is roughly the width of the current 4 by 8 portrait. If we scale down the 4 by 8 portrait to a screen designed for a 6 by 12 portrait (bottom left), we can see that 2 enlarged buttons would be the width of the portrait, if we assume that the buttons and hands would remain the same scale.
The Wii U version of the game decreases the button size for 8 player smash, which would be the most likely option for this game as well. You can fit 4 of the buttons on the same 66% character portrait, but they have to be in a zig-zag pattern.

This is all subject to change and could be wrong, but I think this is going to be the roster number we are going to see.

 

[CannonStreak]

It’s good to see that people are seemingly positive, or at least okay with echo characters. With some people not liking clones in past games, I thought this wouldn’t happen.

 

[monadoboy]

I remember seeing the MvC2 roster and thinking it was absurd back in the day, now people are speculating a 75-80 character roster.
It's still quite away from DBZ:BT3's 93 (161 with transformations) and Tobal 2's 200 fighters (which I just found out existed and holds the record for most fighters in a fighting game).

 

[Zinith]

I was kind of curious about Yoshi and Luigi. Those two have often been stuck in Mario's shadow, but I guess being revealed last is supposed to be a reference to the fact that they're typically portrayed as Mario's sidekicks in the mainstream Super Mario titles.

I wish I knew what the actual intent was, because all it did was kill hype for those two when everyone else got it.

 

[Garteam]

How would you feel if we got an echo fighter of Pokemon Trainer as the Gen 7 Pokemon Rep?

I'd be pretty bummed out all. There's so much uniqueness in Alola between Decidueye, Rowlet, Mimikyu, Lycanroc, Incineroar, and even more niche picks like Buzzwole. To get a low effort clone as a Gen 7 rep would be extremely underwhelming.

Besides, how would the bipedal bird Dartrix work as a clone of the quadruped dinosaur Ivysaur? There's also the issue of Incineroar not having wings when it comes to Charizard.

 

[Nekoo]

I feel like we're getting out of hand pitching echo fighters now.

I think it's mostly the fact that Nintendo/Sakurai never aknowledge the taboo that the clones were. By giving them proper introduction and name while showing a new CLONE in a game reveal seems to makes people think we might get more clones, kinda like a Melee situation-

Add to this Sakurai's comment about not expecting more Newcomers than usual, and people feels that perhaps we are INDEED in a melee situation with an almost half newcomers and half echoes characters-

However we know """"nothing"""" in terms of newcomers scale since we only have so far two Newcomers with Inkling and Ridley alongside one Echo with Daisy.

However, you're right, people are starting to throw random idea as "Echo" characters when they wouldn't make sense at all, beside some KNOW case of very possibly working echoes (Like Chrom, Shadow, Ken, Isabelle) I think we shouldn't look too much into it-

 

[Zinith]

I'm going to play an interesting game of messing with the CSS to get a logical newcomer count, assuming a rectangular block is our character select screen (the exceptions to this rule are smash 4 post dlc and melee)

Spoiler: Lots of Images

lets begin with the css we have now

It's pretty safe to assume that that the black space becomes mostly filled with the passage of time.
Right now it's at an aspect ratio of 4 by 8 with the bottom row missing one spot. Of the 66 known characters, only 30 are present here.
We can't just double the css by every dimension otherwise we'd end up with an 8 by 16, which is super unmanageable.
Lets just assume for a second that instead each dimension is multiplied by 1.5 to get a 6 by 12 roster.
a 6 by 12 roster implies that there are 72 slots for the taking total, and we know who possess 67 of those slots, leaving 5 remaining spaces up for grabs including more echoes. This is about on par with what Sakurai said about not expecting too many newcomers. This assumes Lucina/Dark Pit/Daisy take up their own spaces on the roster. If not, then there are roughly 8 spaces left.
There's more evidence however that suggests that the roster is likely to be 6 by 12 on launch: Each character icon (in a solo battle) should allow for space for 2 character selection buttons (the P1 and P2 buttons) in width. Right now, each character selection portrait is roughly 3 buttons wide and 2 buttons tall. If each portrait is scaled to be 2/3 as wide (to allow for 3/2 the characters), we would have enough space for there to be 2 buttons side to side to each other in each portrait. Let me make an example:
View attachment 148217
Hi res image top left of the hand and the enlarged player button hovering over the Ridley portrait, with the upper right being before the button is on the image and the bottom right being the button placed on the image. The button in hand is slightly larger than the placed button, but 3 enlarged buttons is roughly the width of the current 4 by 8 portrait. If we scale down the 4 by 8 portrait to a screen designed for a 6 by 12 portrait (bottom left), we can see that 2 enlarged buttons would be the width of the portrait, if we assume that the buttons and hands would remain the same scale.
The Wii U version of the game decreases the button size for 8 player smash, which would be the most likely option for this game as well. You can fit 4 of the buttons on the same 66% character portrait, but they have to be in a zig-zag pattern.

This is all subject to change and could be wrong, but I think this is going to be the roster number we are going to see.

Whoa boy, that's a lot more indepth then what I was speculating.

 

[SmashChu]

Frankly put, a terrible idea.

Marvel vs Capcom Infinite kind of proves how powerful a fanbase scorned is.

Yes, MvsCI failed a lot due to technical ****, but at the same time, the roster was just awful due to legal conflicts, and focusing more on the 'relevant' series than actual fan favorite characters(Phoenix Wright, Amaterasu, EVERY X-Man, etc).

Marvel vs Capcom 3 cut a ton of characters from 2. In fact, the roster went from the 56 to 36 characters, and this includes the 20 or so new characters they added. Marvel vs Capcom 3 outsold 2 and is the best selling game in the series. Large rosters by themselves don't make a more successful game, so Marvel vs Capcom is a bad example.

The problem is that Smash Bros can't continue on its current trejectory. The game will very likely have 70 characters at the end of it. If people want a new title, they'll also expect new characters, but that only balloons the number further. To illistrate, 64 had 12 characters. Melee had 25. Brawl had 35. Smash 4 had 48 (51 with Miis), and had 55 (58 with Miis) after the DLC. The roster has 66 characters now. This can not continue indefinitaly. We've already pasted the upper limit. "Big roster" isn't going to be a selling point anymore.

The way for Smash to continue is to rethink Smash. The series has to have its BoTW moment and figure out what it is and where it needs to go. That's nice that you can say "Hey all the characters are back," but what happens with the next game. That is the issue.

 

[N3ON]

You guys realize echo fighters are just clones, right? The thing we've had in Smash since the outset? The thing we get, in one form or another, every time? And they're the most underwhelming version of a clone - the near direct clone. Last week you would've been lit. up. for suggesting a character be a clone because of how it's a poor representation and whatnot.

This isn't new, the only thing different now is an epsilon, a name, and the fact that Sakurai doesn't even seem to consider them part of the series' tally.

 

[monadoboy]

but what happens with the next game. That is the issue.

There's plenty of things they could do. Keep porting characters, adopting a similar system to Overwatch, etc. I don't think we should worry about Smash's future for the rest of the Switch's lifespan, which might be a long time.

 

[Questionmark222]

Hmm...I actually wonder which one would suit this design more: Southern gruff accent or British? I am leaning towards the latter personally.

I'm in the minority that prefers the Southern voice for my boy.

 

[papagenos]

I'm going to play an interesting game of messing with the CSS to get a logical newcomer count, assuming a rectangular block is our character select screen (the exceptions to this rule are smash 4 post dlc and melee)

Spoiler: Lots of Images

lets begin with the css we have now

It's pretty safe to assume that that the black space becomes mostly filled with the passage of time.
Right now it's at an aspect ratio of 4 by 8 with the bottom row missing one spot. Of the 66 known characters, only 30 are present here.
We can't just double the css by every dimension otherwise we'd end up with an 8 by 16, which is super unmanageable.
Lets just assume for a second that instead each dimension is multiplied by 1.5 to get a 6 by 12 roster.
a 6 by 12 roster implies that there are 72 slots for the taking total, and we know who possess 67 of those slots, leaving 5 remaining spaces up for grabs including more echoes. This is about on par with what Sakurai said about not expecting too many newcomers. This assumes Lucina/Dark Pit/Daisy take up their own spaces on the roster. If not, then there are roughly 8 spaces left.
There's more evidence however that suggests that the roster is likely to be 6 by 12 on launch: Each character icon (in a solo battle) should allow for space for 2 character selection buttons (the P1 and P2 buttons) in width. Right now, each character selection portrait is roughly 3 buttons wide and 2 buttons tall. If each portrait is scaled to be 2/3 as wide (to allow for 3/2 the characters), we would have enough space for there to be 2 buttons side to side to each other in each portrait. Let me make an example:
View attachment 148217
Hi res image top left of the hand and the enlarged player button hovering over the Ridley portrait, with the upper right being before the button is on the image and the bottom right being the button placed on the image. The button in hand is slightly larger than the placed button, but 3 enlarged buttons is roughly the width of the current 4 by 8 portrait. If we scale down the 4 by 8 portrait to a screen designed for a 6 by 12 portrait (bottom left), we can see that 2 enlarged buttons would be the width of the portrait, if we assume that the buttons and hands would remain the same scale.
The Wii U version of the game decreases the button size for 8 player smash, which would be the most likely option for this game as well. You can fit 4 of the buttons on the same 66% character portrait, but they have to be in a zig-zag pattern.

This is all subject to change and could be wrong, but I think this is going to be the roster number we are going to see.

12x6 also just makes sense cause of the original 12 smash characters and the fact they put emphasis on numbering everyone AND even the demos CSS is ordered by appearance in smash and not game series.

its going to be the original 12 on top as the first row with a total of 6 rows. I know this isnt something you can usually "call" in a smash game but we usually dont get ALL the veterans known off the bat and an idea of how they are setting up the CSS either so i think its pretty safe to assume this time.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Y'all are reading too much into the whole Luigi and Yoshi thing. It was a cute and funny thing to do at the end of the trailer for cute and funny characters.

It's not that deep.

 

[Nekoo]

Marvel vs Capcom 3 cut a ton of characters from 2. In fact, the roster went from the 56 to 36 characters, and this includes the 20 or so new characters they added. Marvel vs Capcom 3 outsold 2 and is the best selling game in the series. Large rosters by themselves don't make a more successful game, so Marvel vs Capcom is a bad example.

Not wanting to be an ass, but using a game series transitioning from 2D to 3D with an eleven years of wait in a periods where Fighting Games were back to glory alongside the Marvel Cinematics Universe being more successful than ever and for some first fighting game isn't really a good exemple

MVCI to MVC3 IS a good exemple since they both are in a fighting game popularity era, alongside having both of their franchise being known by the "casual" market, Add to this the ****storm that is the Roster with a lots of missing staple and Muties, and yes, I'm willing to say that the large roster alongside the general presentation is INDEED was caused MCVI to fail compared to MVC3 who, while it still had cuts from 2, also had a charming and beautiful presentation while not missing staple characters from it's roster.

 

[monadoboy]

You guys realize echo fighters are just clones, right? The thing we've had in Smash since the outset? The thing we get, in one form or another, every time? And they're the most underwhelming version of a clone - the near direct clone. Last week you would've been lit. up. for suggesting a character be a clone because of how it's a poor representation and whatnot.

This isn't new, the only thing different now is an epsilon, a name, and the fact that Sakurai doesn't even seem to consider them part of the series' tally.

It's the only way for some characters to get in the game.
I could be upset Lucina is relegated to a clone status, upset that she isn't on the game, or simply play as a clone Marth. I prefer playing as her to the other options.
I, for one, welcome the clones, Echoes, or however they want to name them. In fact, the more, the merrier.