Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Curious Villager]

I think it's mostly the fact that Nintendo/Sakurai never aknowledge the taboo that the clones were. By giving them proper introduction and name while showing a new CLONE in a game reveal seems to makes people think we might get more clones, kinda like a Melee situation-

Add to this Sakurai's comment about not expecting more Newcomers than usual, and people feels that perhaps we are INDEED in a melee situation with an almost half newcomers and half echoes characters-

However we know """"nothing"""" in terms of newcomers scale since we only have so far two Newcomers with Inkling and Ridley alongside one Echo with Daisy.

However, you're right, people are starting to throw random idea as "Echo" characters when they wouldn't make sense at all, beside some KNOW case of very possibly working echoes (Like Chrom, Shadow, Ken, Isabelle) I think we shouldn't look too much into it-

I think that may have actually been a good thing, clones have usually been revealed last in the past and that's when the fanbase has usually been at their most hopeful for their favourites to make it in, not even considering the possibility of last minute clones being in as they always tend to convince themselves that there won't be any time and again.

This time around though, Sakurai has forewarned us now that the newcomer lineup won't be as big as past games and that there will be additional clones again (dubbed echo fighters) so the fans are keeping their expectations a bit more in check this time around.

 

[PSIguy89]

WHEW finally caught up....so I’m hype as all hell for this! This is gonna be the smash to end all smashes (for a long while anyways) I’m stoked to see what Young Link will play like this time around, as well as his final smash. I also can’t help but feel like the next smash game after this one will be a series reboot. Oh and also Ninten as an echo fighter would be amazing!!! I’m pumped for all the Daisy and Ridley fans!!!

 

[Ze Diglett]

This isn't new, the only thing different now is an epsilon, a name, and the fact that Sakurai doesn't even seem to consider them part of the series' tally.

And that they aren't last-minute additions anymore. The fact that Echoes seem to actually be planned from the outset this time are what sold me on them. Either way, they're here now, and there's not much point in getting upset about them when I could be riding the hype train, is there?
Speaking of Echoes, I've heard a lot of people suggest Isabelle for an Echo of Villager. Forgive me, but that doesn't make sense to me; I just can't see her pestering folks with a slingshot like Villager does. Then again, I know next to nothing about AC and have zero interest in the series, so...

 

[GmailDotCom]

So, I knew it that Smash wouldn't show up at E3 (and no, I don't have any expectation for the next days.. would love to be wrong, but I don't believe).. but I still waiting for a announcement later this year for a release in the next; Smash is a big series, yes, but a port of a 2014 is not really big news for E3.. a Nintendo is already doing this too much with old games on the Switch.

Krystal and Bomberman are trophies so I don't think they'll be added to the game and I can see Crash, Spring Man, Rayman and K. Rool come into the game because of high demand and recent releases.

 

[CannonStreak]

In regards to how many characters that are new will be in the game, let me ask this: How many third-party newcomers do you guys think will be in the game? I am predicting two.

 

[SuperMasterHand]

Well, the Smash Bros Blog updated for today. It's not anything too exciting and new howeverView attachment 148216.

It's still a good thing, I hoping we get something everyday even after E3

(for some reason, the last article about sandbag and ridley are not yet in the french version of the site, I guess I will check everyday in the US then)

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Retracted Post

 

[N3ON]

It's the only way for some characters to get in the game.
I could be upset Lucina is relegated to a clone status, upset that she isn't on the game, or simply play as a clone Marth. I prefer playing as her to the other options.
I, for one, welcome the clones, Echoes, or however they want to name them. In fact, the more, the merrier.

But that's not new. There's nothing new about them other than a name. And I refuse to believe the fanbase so dull that this valid point of yours didn't dawn on them until they were simply labeled something different.

 

[DraginHikari]

If you scroll up to her chest you'll see some much-needed nerfs.

Spoiler

Take that, Namco.

I've seen a lot of people comment on this elsewhere. Honestly, as much as I don't have an issue with fanservice and the like design that Smash 4 had. I will say that, for Samus, her appearance in Other M and Smash 4 were kind of odd for her general characterization and lifestyle choice. Generally women who are muscular generally don't have D-cup breasts since well... breasts are mostly fat and when women exercise or built muscle they generally do have smaller breasts and do not have a very thin figure either. Though Samus is meant to at least appear beautiful or at least sexually attractive in many regards she was also often drawn to suggest she could throw any man or alien across a room if she felt like it. Even in Super Metroid her final image, though a little more sexualized then the zero suit, does seem to attempt to show some aspect of her intended physical attributes regardless of the less detailed sprite.

I had no direct issue with the Other M/Smash 4 design in theory because it's simply a different protrayal. I will say that I do prefer a design that is more true to the nature of her character then the overly fan service design.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

In regards to how many characters that are new will be in the game, let me ask this: How many third-party newcomers do you guys think will be in the game? I am predicting two.

Brawl and Smash 4 both introduced 2 so I think 2 is a fairly safe bet, I feel like Simon will still be in tbh and I still really wanna see rayman. Geno could also happen I guess.

 

[Shroob]

Marvel vs Capcom 3 cut a ton of characters from 2. In fact, the roster went from the 56 to 36 characters, and this includes the 20 or so new characters they added. Marvel vs Capcom 3 outsold 2 and is the best selling game in the series. Large rosters by themselves don't make a more successful game, so Marvel vs Capcom is a bad example.

The problem is that Smash Bros can't continue on its current trejectory. The game will very likely have 70 characters at the end of it. If people want a new title, they'll also expect new characters, but that only balloons the number further. To illistrate, 64 had 12 characters. Melee had 25. Brawl had 35. Smash 4 had 48 (51 with Miis), and had 55 (58 with Miis) after the DLC. The roster has 66 characters now. This can not continue indefinitaly. We've already pasted the upper limit. "Big roster" isn't going to be a selling point anymore.

The way for Smash to continue is to rethink Smash. The series has to have its BoTW moment and figure out what it is and where it needs to go. That's nice that you can say "Hey all the characters are back," but what happens with the next game. That is the issue.

Marvel vs Capcom 3 sold well, not denying that, but the competitive scene died out faster than Smash 4's at the same rate.

Good sales do not equal a healthy competitive scene, which is vital for a community to thrive like this.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Echo Fighter Concept/Prediction #2:

Dry Bowser ε

Differences:

• Slightly lighter and faster than Bowser.
• Blue Fireballs (lifted from custom move in the Wii U version)
• Bone Throw Side Special
• Head Throw Side Tilt
• Taunts that express unique personality (Dissembling, holding head like a ball)
• Victory Poses with Dry Bones and Boo
• Unique Final Smash (Or Giga Dry Bowser)
• Overall, different personality and animations that are purely aesthetic.

Not really an echo if he has new animations. Personally, I'd say he should use Melee Bowser's side special or some version of it. Also, since he's lighter, his down special could be replaced. Personally, I'd like him to summon a Dry Bones that he can hit to use the skull as a projectile, but I don't know his character that well. Is he really that cartoony?

 

[Pazzo.]

I have it on good authority that Samus' has the same cup size, just a more realistic suit.

Not that I'm complaining, whew boi.

 

[StrangeMann]

In regards to how many characters that are new will be in the game, let me ask this: How many third-party newcomers do you guys think will be in the game? I am predicting two.

Expecting Belmont for sure, and either another Sq. Enix rep or a Ubisoft rep but not both.

 

[SuperMasterHand]

Echo Fighter Concept/Prediction #2:

Dry Bowser ε

Differences:

• Slightly lighter and faster than Bowser.
• Blue Fireballs (lifted from custom move in the Wii U version)
• Bone Throw Side Special
• Head Throw Side Tilt
• Taunts that express unique personality (Dissembling, holding head like a ball)
• Victory Poses with Dry Bones and Boo
• Unique Final Smash (Or Giga Dry Bowser)
• Overall, different personality and animations that are purely aesthetic.

You're not doing an echoe of Bowser, but more like a semi-clone, like Dr Mario

 

[StrangeMann]

Echo Fighter Concept/Prediction #2:

Dry Bowser ε

Differences:

• Slightly lighter and faster than Bowser.
• Blue Fireballs (lifted from custom move in the Wii U version)
• Bone Throw Side Special
• Head Throw Side Tilt
• Taunts that express unique personality (Dissembling, holding head like a ball)
• Victory Poses with Dry Bones and Boo
• Unique Final Smash (Or Giga Dry Bowser)
• Overall, different personality and animations that are purely aesthetic.

I actually feel like Dry Bowser should just pick up a buffed version of Bowser's Melee/Brawl moveset and just be jumped to regular clone, even though it would be a controversial opinion.

 

[Shroob]

You guys realize echo fighters are just clones, right? The thing we've had in Smash since the outset? The thing we get, in one form or another, every time? And they're the most underwhelming version of a clone - the near direct clone. Last week you would've been lit. up. for suggesting a character be a clone because of how it's a poor representation and whatnot.

This isn't new, the only thing different now is an epsilon, a name, and the fact that Sakurai doesn't even seem to consider them part of the series' tally.

Now that there's no fear of "X got cut but YClone got in", people are much more accepting.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Echo Fighter Concept/Prediction #2:

Dry Bowser ε

Differences:

• Slightly lighter and faster than Bowser.
• Blue Fireballs (lifted from custom move in the Wii U version)
• Bone Throw Side Special
• Head Throw Side Tilt
• Taunts that express unique personality (Dissembling, holding head like a ball)
• Victory Poses with Dry Bones and Boo
• Unique Final Smash (Or Giga Dry Bowser)
• Overall, different personality and animations that are purely aesthetic.

"Bone throw side special"
"Head throw side tilt"

Uh that doesn't seem to be how echoes work. They only seem to change idles, taunts, victory animations, general moveset attributes and final smashes (Dark Pit's is still different right?) but not actual move animations.

 

[Radical Bones]

Echo Fighter Concept/Prediction #2:

Dry Bowser ε

Differences:

• Slightly lighter and faster than Bowser.
• Blue Fireballs (lifted from custom move in the Wii U version)
• Bone Throw Side Special
• Head Throw Side Tilt
• Taunts that express unique personality (Dissembling, holding head like a ball)
• Victory Poses with Dry Bones and Boo
• Unique Final Smash (Or Giga Dry Bowser)
• Overall, different personality and animations that are purely aesthetic.

Does bolded not cancel out Dry Bowser being and Echo? That's make him a clone? I thought the idea for Echo's was that they were exactly the same in every way outside of taunts and other simple animations.

 

[younglinkaku]

We've seen Flare Blitz, but not Rock Smash.

Make of that what you will.

As a Zard main I need rock smash.....somebody help me start a petition!!!!

 

[N3ON]

And that they aren't last-minute additions anymore. The fact that Echoes seem to actually be planned from the outset this time are what sold me on them.

Even if that's true, which we've no proof it is... why should that matter? The distinction is meaningless; they're exactly the same in function. We still receive them the same time we would whether they were added from the get go or the tail-end... at release.

Either way, they're here now, and there's not much point in getting upset about them when I could be riding the hype train, is there?

I mean... this is my point. They're not here now, they've been here since 1999. Now the most basic ones are just called echoes.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Echo Fighter Concept/Prediction #2:

Ms. Pac-Man ε

Notable differences:

Aesthetic

• More feminine idle, walking, running, and other animations.
• Unique taunts.
• Ms. Pac-Man Victory Jingle.

Non Aesthetic

• Lighter and gets around easier.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Does bolded not cancel out Dry Bowser being and Echo? That's make him a clone? I thought the idea for Echo's was that they were exactly the same in every way outside of taunts and other simple animations.

Nah, move attributes can be different, Lucina still has her no tipper mechanic and dark pit still has his slow arrows. However attack animations don't seem to change, he could have blue fireballs but not a bone or head throw.

 

[GmailDotCom]

I think that may have actually been a good thing, clones have usually been revealed last in the past and that's when the fanbase has usually been at their most hopeful for their favourites to make it in, not even considering the possibility of last minute clones being in as they always tend to convince themselves that there won't be any time and again.

This time around though, Sakurai has forewarned us now that the newcomer lineup won't be as big as past games and that there will be additional clones again (dubbed echo fighters) so the fans are keeping their expectations a bit more in check this time around.

I want to add that most people get salty and claim that its just a lazy way to add more characters, because like you said they get added last, when people have really high hopes. I can understand why clones are a let down but people enjoy playing as them. I say the more the merrier, clone or not. The happier the community the better rep the game gets.

 

[younglinkaku]

I NEED someone to confirm if Charizard's Rock Smash was actually removed :'(

And also...

Did I get it right, or we're just getting the Original 12 as basics and everyone else is unlockable? If so, YES!!!!

As a Zard main I need rock smash.....somebody help me start a petition!!!!

 

[RetroMetalSonic]

I don't know if anyone here mentioned this yet, but one little detail I noticed on the Moray Towers stage is that Judd and Lil' Judd hold up flags matching the leading player's color when a battle is nearing it's end. (E.g, red flags if player 1 is winning.)

Skip to about 2:35.

 

[N3ON]

Now that there's no fear of "X got cut but YClone got in", people are much more accepting.

But that argument is still going to persist with newcomers, it wasn't exclusive to veterans. "I can't believe we got Daisy over K. Rool!" and whatnot.

And also, I don't really buy that. If we had had that exact presentation, except minus the reveal of the term "echo character", do you think people would really be listing all their ideas for clones? I don't.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Fixed*
Echo Fighter Concept/Prediction #3:

Dry Bowser ε

Differences:

• Slightly lighter and faster than Bowser.
• Blue fire
• Taunts that express unique personality (Dissembling, holding head like a ball)
• Victory Poses with Dry Bones and Boo
• Overall, different personality and animations that are purely aesthetic.

 

[KingIceSonic]

A lot of the hype that some people had died down a bit when Sakurai said not to expect as many newcomers. I see a lot of people expect less than 7 newcomers remaining(10 total)

That is honestly pretty sad. It's making me wonder if it was honestly worth it.

 

[Ze Diglett]

In regards to how many characters that are new will be in the game, let me ask this: How many third-party newcomers do you guys think will be in the game? I am predicting two.

For the base roster, I think this is a pretty safe bet. I'd be willing to go as high as three, assuming Geno counts.

 

[Shroob]

But that argument is still going to persist with newcomers, it wasn't exclusive to veterans. "I can't believe we got Daisy over K. Rool!" and whatnot.

Noooooot 100% true.

Back in 4's time, people were mad as hell we got Doc, Lucina and Dark Pit but not Mewtwo or Lucas, or Wolf.


It's a different time, and a different mindset. Now that EVERYONE is back, people are more accepting.

 

[GmailDotCom]

As a Zard main I need rock smash.....somebody help me start a petition!!!!

Yeah they are unlockable characters which I was really excited for and which I was really hoping for. Maybe that means an Adventure Mode??? Or they might just do the challenge thing like they did in melee. IDK but Im hoping for a new story similar to how they did Subspace Emissary

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not wanting to be an ***, but using a game series transitioning from 2D to 3D with an eleven years of wait in a periods where Fighting Games were back to glory alongside the Marvel Cinematics Universe being more successful than ever and for some first fighting game isn't really a good exemple

MVCI to MVC3 IS a good exemple since they both are in a fighting game popularity era, alongside having both of their franchise being known by the "casual" market, Add to this the ****storm that is the Roster with a lots of missing staple and Muties, and yes, I'm willing to say that the large roster alongside the general presentation is INDEED was caused MCVI to fail compared to MVC3 who, while it still had cuts from 2, also had a charming and beautiful presentation while not missing staple characters from it's roster.

The closest thing to a staple character it even cut was MegaMan, and Zero was still at least there, a major protagonist of a MegaMan series game. And as much as I missed MegaMan, it wasn't the biggest deal in the world. We got X, who is a similar idea(major protagonist) in Infinite.

The lack of mutants definitely did a number on the game's reception. The game wasn't that great beyond it, but that really hurt. If even Wolverine alone was on the base roster, it would not gotten nearly as much backlash. People honestly really need to understand that the roster was that big of a deal. I wish more would see it that way as you do.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

In regards to how many characters that are new will be in the game, let me ask this: How many third-party newcomers do you guys think will be in the game? I am predicting two.

I think Simon Belmont is going to be the only addition, leaving us with eight third parties, which is quite a lot. And a sufficient amount for an 8-Player Smash.

But, Knuckles as an assist trophy may indicate plans to make Shadow playable in the base game or as DLC, and there's the possibility of a Ms. Pac-Man echo fighter.

 

[Wyoming]

So for fun I did a mock up roster if the original 12 led their respective rows

Not too shabby. Seems very plausible.

 

[N3ON]

Noooooot 100% true.

Back in 4's time, people were mad as hell we got Doc, Lucina and Dark Pit but not Mewtwo or Lucas, or Wolf.


It's a different time, and a different mindset. Now that EVERYONE is back, people are more accepting.

Yes it will eliminate the veteran side of it, not the newcomer side. People will still 100% use clones as scapegoats for why a unique newcomer didn't get in. They do it every time. Especially if we actually end up getting a lot of "echo characters".

Also edited this in my last post but here it is again.
And also, I don't really buy that. If we had had that exact presentation, except minus the reveal of the term "echo character", do you think people would really be listing all their ideas for clones? I don't.

 

[Shroob]

The closest thing to a staple character it even cut was MegaMan, and Zero was still at least there, a major protagonist of a MegaMan series game. And as much as I missed MegaMan, it wasn't the biggest deal in the world. We got X, who is a similar idea(major protagonist) in Infinite.

The lack of mutants definitely did a number on the game's reception. The game wasn't that great beyond it, but that really hurt. If even Wolverine alone was on the base roster, it would not gotten nearly as much backlash. People honestly really need to understand that the roster was that big of a deal. I wish more would see it that way as you do.

Wasn't even just the Mutants, really.

Yeah, Wolverine, Sentinel and Magneto were series staples, but you also cut out Jill Valentine, Shuma-Gorath, Felicia and friggen DOCTOR DOOM.

 

[GmailDotCom]

I think Simon Belmont is going to be the only addition, leaving us with eight third parties, which is quite a lot. And a sufficient amount for an 8-Player Smash.

But, Knuckles as an assist trophy may indicate plans to make Shadow playable in the base game or as DLC, and there's the possibility of a Ms. Pac-Man echo fighter.

Im really hoping for Simon or Alucard but I can see maybe another 4-5 third-party newcomers because of how well sm4sh did with the DLC.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Apologies for labeling Dry Bowser an echo fighter, despite his many different abilities. I was more so listing the possibilities. I don't think Dry Bowser is going to get any new moves, but I do expect him to show up as an echo fighter.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wasn't even just the Mutants, really.

Yeah, Wolverine, Sentinel and Magneto were series staples, but you also cut out Jill Valentine, Shuma-Gorath, Felicia and friggen DOCTOR DOOM.

That too. I just mean Wolverine is the one mutant that would've held out people long enough for DLC if he was base.

And Jill's like my favorite RE character too. Especially in the card game. >.>