Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Staarih]

Of course the Wii U era won't be ignored. If the Wii U era offers good newcomers, Sakurai will probably pick up on them. But I don't see how looking at the past would rule out looking at the future (or rather the "now"): as in the Switch - especially since we're talking about only a few more new potential additions (someone from ARMS and XC2... and BotW I guess too, though also a Wii U title) to an otherwise past gen pool of newcomers. Much of the "Switch era" is also "Wii U era" because of the ports anyway haha.

 

[Pacack]

I've gone over numerous times in the past why I think it could be different this time. Not only did this game start development after the previous title, but it was developed during a pivotal time in Nintendo's business strategy/their future.

I firmly believe that Kimishima discussed with Sakurai the opportunity to create another Smash game to propel the upcoming console even further, especially considering the power of Smash. Contrary to popular belief, Sakurai is NOT a Nintendo employee, so the idea that Kimishima would chat with him about the new game isn't entirely out of the question.

The Wii U, the console generation in its entirety, has been a low point for Nintendo. It's close to the Virtual Boy in terms of success. Or lack thereof rather.

I'm also not saying he would ignore the entire generation. There were some gems there. But I'm not sure it's enough for a completely compelling group of newcomers.

I would like to express that I legitimately have not read an explanation for this line of thought before, and I appreciate you articulating it for me.

Personally, my philosophy is to attempt to identify common trends in Sakurai's methodology and to draw conclusions from the available precedence.

That said, we don't think terribly differently. However, I expect promotion of characters to be done largely through DLC, and not in the base roster. I expect this because the Pokemon series and Corrin are the only examples we have of a character being added primarily for marketing.

I expect the likes of Rex and Spring Man to be DLC shortly after the base game's release, and for characters like a gen 8 Pokemon or the new Fire Emblem lord to be added close to the release of their games.

While I would agree that Kimishima likely discussed the prospect of Smash Bros. on the Switch, I am not coninced that the conversation was anything more than "this console needs a Smash game in its second year." Kimoshima does not strike me as a man who asks for a person to alter their creative process.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I'm not being sarcastic in any way when I ask this.

Why?

If you recognize that Sakurai has historically not used Smash as a marketing tool, why do you think he's going to start now? Is there something that leads you to that conclusion other than your personal background?

Has more to do with how this game is being handled over all. It's very different from past smash games where it is instead being released very early in the consoles life, shortly after the last title. Because of this I feel they aren't going to want to focus on Wii U era games, or at least only on ones that have been ported and such. But yeah I'm not 100% sold on it which is why my personal prediction roster is a bit mixed.

To be fair, I never said "nothing came out during that time", so I'm not entirely sure where you got that quote from.

My point isn't so much that they won't look at Wii U stuff, I'm sure they will on the contrary. I simply believe that Nintendo, as a company, would want to shift the focus of Smash on successes or get on the hype train of the Switch.

Given the fact that Sakurai is NOT a Nintendo employee, I can totally see Kimishima suggesting that he look at SOME content making it to the Switch. Again, but no means do I believe nothing from the Wii U will be in the game. From my recollection, however, a lot of the titles would simply support similar series.

For example, from those lists that other users are sharing, I immediately consider Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Elma, and Bandanna Dee. We already have Inklings, so it's a given that Wii U games are going to get characters, stages, etc.

My argument is simply that I think early Switch titles could get playable characters as well.


I've gone over numerous times in the past why I think it could be different this time. Not only did this game start development after the previous title, but it was developed during a pivotal time in Nintendo's business strategy/their future.

I firmly believe that Kimishima discussed with Sakurai the opportunity to create another Smash game to propel the upcoming console even further, especially considering the power of Smash. Contrary to popular belief, Sakurai is NOT a Nintendo employee, so the idea that Kimishima would chat with him about the new game isn't entirely out of the question.

The Wii U, the console generation in its entirety, has been a low point for Nintendo. It's close to the Virtual Boy in terms of success. Or lack thereof rather.

I'm also not saying he would ignore the entire generation. There were some gems there. But I'm not sure it's enough for a completely compelling group of newcomers.

I could be reading this wrong, but i'm detecting a wee bit of aggression, and I'm not really sure why?

Porting games from the Wii U is not to "remember the Wii U". It's to bring their top titles that, frankly, a large group of potential customers never played because they didn't play the Wii U. That strategy has worked. They're not stupid enough to "forget the Wii U" by not capitalizing on an opportunity to make money.

I also think it's obvious that anything Zelda will by default be larger than a newer IP. That's obvious. If we base everything on that, however, we'd be getting characters from the same series in every Smash title. I think new IPs and the growth of an existing IPs are equally important, but in different ways. To assume BOTW is way more important than putting out new games for other series seems a bit like a leap. Did it perform better? Yes. It's a brand new, open world Zelda. Of course it would perform better than a JRPG sequel (that became the best selling in its series) and a new fighting IP. How that translates to Smash, however, may not reflect that.

In terms of Xenoblade, I don't think it's that simple. Elma could get added, and I'm sure she'll be loads of fun. However, given the time of roster selection, Monolith had been working on XC2 for at least a year or more. The game was scheduled for 2017, and if Sakurai was looking for a newcomer from the series, he WOULD have the option between the two. Just because he could just add Elma doesn't mean that that's what he would go with.

Lastly, if we're talking about amiibo as indicators of likelihood, then I guess Tiki, Chrom, Toon Zelda, Chibi-Robo, Daisy, Waluigi, Boo, Alm, Celica, and a crap ton of Animal Crossing characters have a chance. To me, that doesn't mean much.

Oh I wasn't referring to you specifically, didn't even see you're original post, it was more a comment on that idea as a whole which I've seen other people bring up. Just because that wan't a successful time period doesn't mean that there isn't stuff to pull from. I agree with pretty much all your points too btw.

Haha. Smash Switch is going to sell Wii U era games considering many Switch games are ports of Wii U era games.

Exactly lol.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Hopefully it helps us decide which newcomers can have a chance at getting. There wasn’t alot of firepower games released in the last generation which means there aren’t alot of newcomers that the devs can add. So I believe that Sakurai decided to look into future titles because there weren’t really many options left that devs could add from the last generation. So I believe it will be a mix of Wii U/3DS era characters, Switch era characters, retro characters, ballot characters, and third parties

Here’s my input on the roster:
- 2-3 from the previous generation
- 2-3 from future titles
- 2-4 from the ballot
- 1-2 retro characters
- 1-2 third parties
- 1-3 returning veterans

Maximum I believe we’ll get 14 newcomers plus 3 veterans putting the roster at 17 characters, at minimum 9 newcomers and 1 veteran, giving us 10 characters.This doesn’t include reworks.

Any thoughts?

I think that's a safe bet. I'm so ready for E3. We are all clamoring at each other, and going nuts because we're so starved for information. I updated my roster last night, and then as soon as I posted it, I wanted to make changes to it. Then I looked up more about the whole Ridley and Simon rumor, and was like "Hmmmm?, but it sounds so likely, and he's so credible.". I just don't like rumors until proven true, but now I have a whole new mock-up roster typed into my notes on my phone, and I'm waiting to make it up.

Do you have any idea who you think we might get, and who you want?

I had to take Mimikyu off my roster last night, and it destroyed my soul. I want to be wrong.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

There is plenty of characters to choose as Smash Switch newcomers. Captain Toad, Bandana Dee, Ashley, Isabelle, Dixie Kong, Paper Mario and the Chorus Men are all examples of possible characters to chose from the 3DS/Wii U era. That's not even taking into account ballot choices, retro characters, curveball characters and/or third-party characters.

I could be reading this wrong, but i'm detecting a wee bit of aggression, and I'm not really sure why?

Porting games from the Wii U is not to "remember the Wii U". It's to bring their top titles that, frankly, a large group of potential customers never played because they didn't play the Wii U. That strategy has worked. They're not stupid enough to "forget the Wii U" by not capitalizing on an opportunity to make money.

The whole argument to begin with revolved around the idea that Wii U titles won't be a big factor in character selection due to implication that Nintendo doesn't want anything to do with them, despite the ports contradicting that argument.

I also think it's obvious that anything Zelda will by default be larger than a newer IP. That's obvious. If we base everything on that, however, we'd be getting characters from the same series in every Smash title. I think new IPs and the growth of an existing IPs are equally important, but in different ways. To assume BOTW is way more important than putting out new games for other series seems a bit like a leap. Did it perform better? Yes. It's a brand new, open world Zelda. Of course it would perform better than a JRPG sequel (that became the best selling in its series) and a new fighting IP. How that translates to Smash, however, may not reflect that.

How does making more money for Nintendo along with how much more promoted it was not equal being more important to Nintendo than XC2 and ARMS? I mean, there's plenty of existing Nintendo IPs that could use some love in terms of playable characters just as much as XC2 and ARMS but they won't happen. Using the argument of new IPs and the growth of IPs, adding in something like Dillon and Chibi Robo could be argued to be just as valuable as adding in an ARMS character and arguable even more than XC2 (since they would represent a whole new franchise that got no playable characters as opposed to a second Xenoblade character).

People who think are weird and out of place.

Are you okay?
They're no more out of place than .

The latter three gets more of a free pass because they are cartoony characters.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

With all this talk about the development window then all I can say is, if the 1st party DLC isn't up to snuff this time then they've got no excuse. (Sorry Corrin, you just weren't [insert character here])

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

With the BOTW champions, what if all four got in. But they were half-clones?


Urbosa as a half-clone of Link. She can use BOTW equivalent weapons compared to Link's. Save for the bombs, instead she has her fury. Also she has a normal grab instead of a hook-shot.


Durak as a half-clone of Bowser. More rolling than spinning, he has no fire breath, but his protection instead. It acts as reflector shield whilst making him immune to damage while up. Punching, headbutting, drop-kicking and slamming right down from the air suit his powerful build. Also he pulls his weapon out for taunts.


Mipha as a half-clone of Palutena. Spinning her spear on water, she can also slap people with the H2O for smashes, vaguely like the wings. A jet of water for the up-smash and an ice wall for the reflector. No auto reticule, but instead she charges her grace and when finished, bestows herself with reduced knockback for the next five hits.


Revali as a half-clone of Decidueye. No ghost moves or grass moves, but wind moves for similar affects. A better flier than the pokemon, he has more end lag on his moves but is far more mobile. Also sass, lots of sass. Sass for days.


Four semi clones would probably be less or equal effort to a full character. Would people be happy with this, or would this be too much BOTW?



I'd still be greedy and want Midna as well... :x

 

[osby]

With the BOTW champions, what if all four got in. But they were half-clones?


Urbosa as a half-clone of Link. She can use BOTW equivalent weapons compared to Link's. Save for the bombs, instead she has her fury. Also she has a normal grab instead of a hook-shot.


Durak as a half-clone of Bowser. More rolling than spinning, he has no fire breath, but his protection instead. It acts as reflector shield whilst making him immune to damage while up. Punching, headbutting, drop-kicking and slamming right down from the air suit his powerful build. Also he pulls his weapon out for taunts.


Mipha as a half-clone of Palutena. Spinning her spear on water, she can also slap people with the H2O for smashes, vaguely like the wings. A jet of water for the up-smash and an ice wall for the reflector. No auto reticule, but instead she charges her grace and when finished, bestows herself with reduced knockback for the next five hits.


Revali as a half-clone of Decidueye. No ghost moves or grass moves, but wind moves for similar affects. A better flier than the pokemon, he has more end lag on his moves but is far more mobile. Also sass, lots of sass. Sass for days.


Four semi clones would probably be less or equal effort to a full character. Would people be happy with this, or would this be too much BOTW?



I'd still be greedy and want Midna as well... :x

I don't think we'll ever get a Ganondorf situation again. I can understand cramming a character at the end of the development but four characters like this, planned from the start? They are better not become playable, it's overdoing it.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

With the BOTW champions, what if all four got in. But they were half-clones?


Urbosa as a half-clone of Link. She can use BOTW equivalent weapons compared to Link's. Save for the bombs, instead she has her fury. Also she has a normal grab instead of a hook-shot.


Durak as a half-clone of Bowser. More rolling than spinning, he has no fire breath, but his protection instead. It acts as reflector shield whilst making him immune to damage while up. Punching, headbutting, drop-kicking and slamming right down from the air suit his powerful build. Also he pulls his weapon out for taunts.


Mipha as a half-clone of Palutena. Spinning her spear on water, she can also slap people with the H2O for smashes, vaguely like the wings. A jet of water for the up-smash and an ice wall for the reflector. No auto reticule, but instead she charges her grace and when finished, bestows herself with reduced knockback for the next five hits.


Revali as a half-clone of Decidueye. No ghost moves or grass moves, but wind moves for similar affects. A better flier than the pokemon, he has more end lag on his moves but is far more mobile. Also sass, lots of sass. Sass for days.


Four semi clones would probably be less or equal effort to a full character. Would people be happy with this, or would this be too much BOTW?



I'd still be greedy and want Midna as well... :x

This is an interesting concept and I wouldn't be upset at all, but 4 Zelda newcomers is a lot even if they were all clones.
However I just want to point out that I love your idea for Mipha's Grace. I personally think she is the most likely of the Champions and I think she should have Mipha's Grace in her moveset but I don't know if a healing ability like that would be unbalanced. I think it could be balanced but I have no idea about balancing fighting games lol. Your idea sounds like a cool way to work around it though!

 

[TumblrFamous]

With the BOTW champions, what if all four got in. But they were half-clones?


Urbosa as a half-clone of Link. She can use BOTW equivalent weapons compared to Link's. Save for the bombs, instead she has her fury. Also she has a normal grab instead of a hook-shot.


Durak as a half-clone of Bowser. More rolling than spinning, he has no fire breath, but his protection instead. It acts as reflector shield whilst making him immune to damage while up. Punching, headbutting, drop-kicking and slamming right down from the air suit his powerful build. Also he pulls his weapon out for taunts.


Mipha as a half-clone of Palutena. Spinning her spear on water, she can also slap people with the H2O for smashes, vaguely like the wings. A jet of water for the up-smash and an ice wall for the reflector. No auto reticule, but instead she charges her grace and when finished, bestows herself with reduced knockback for the next five hits.


Revali as a half-clone of Decidueye. No ghost moves or grass moves, but wind moves for similar affects. A better flier than the pokemon, he has more end lag on his moves but is far more mobile. Also sass, lots of sass. Sass for days.


Four semi clones would probably be less or equal effort to a full character. Would people be happy with this, or would this be too much BOTW?



I'd still be greedy and want Midna as well... :x

I'd honestly hate this. Four semi clones? It seems really excessive having all four of them in. These would also seem to be more work than at least one full character. Just give me Midna, Impa, or Skull Kid as their own new Zelda character before 4 of these make it in.

My problem with these Champions is choosing one of the 4 to get in, and I'd rather nix them all/incorporate them into an AT or final smash rather than choose one character, or get 4 clones. If we get a BotW character in Smash, I'd love it to be one of the ancient Sheikah monks. Maz Koshia? Or maybe Impa taking inspiration from the monks and getting some fresh new design and using BotW physics and gameplay.

 

[Jellybat]

As the discussion is moving back to Mario characters. guess ill give my own opinion on additions.


Before i talked about how i like looking at the character pools franchise by franchise assuming i knew nothing about its games or history.

The mario character pool at its current point is fairly covered with 2 glaring exceptions

1: The lack of representation of the RPG style of mario
2: The lack of representation of the large miscellaneous spin-off game pool of mario



Number 1 has a pretty easy pick to fix it in paper mario, as the other rpg series(mario & luigi) kinda has this issue of just being another mario and luigi and the original mario rpg is kinda the ancestor to both of them with shared gameplay aspects.

HOWEVER imho paper mario has to have a move to reference mario & luigi in some way to represent the legacy of this series in someway ( be it final smash with mario&luigi or just anything) for paper mario to truly represent rpg's of mario series well.





Now for number 2 which is is a bit trickier for most series to fufill, but in my eyes there is a perfect character to represent these games for mario games, and its the guy who is seen ONLY in these games. Waluigi.

Waluigi has his entire legacy built up on all the mario spin-off games from sports to mario party, no other mario character( or a gaming character in general i know) has this very special situation of not having even a single entry in any more mainline type of mario game, yet still having a good amount of popularity and multiple appearances spanning across multiple different games.



So considering Waluigi as the spin-off man. I feel the most fitting smash moveset for Waluigi would be a very mish-mash set filled with references to all of his different appearances in all these games. As an example of moves:


neutral B:

Hits/throws a dice block similar to those of Mario party, giving a minor boost depending on the number that comes out of the block.

f-smash:
the classic tennis racket

down-smash:
kicks a foot ball acting both as smash and a pseudo projectile that snares the enemy on hit with Vines, referencing his vine ivyish powers of strikers.


I think you get the idea now.

I would be REALLY disappointed if Waluigi would come it with references to only his first appearance of tennis. I really hope it truly takes off the many gameplay aspects of these spin-off games that would never otherwise see an appearance in smash otherwise. As this form of Waluigi would be the Waluigi i would be hyped to see in this game, and not those generic fan-made Waluigis that just give off this generic feel in their moveset design.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I would like to express that I legitimately have not read an explanation for this line of thought before, and I appreciate you articulating it for me.

Personally, my philosophy is to attempt to identify common trends in Sakurai's methodology and to draw conclusions from the available precedence.

That said, we don't think terribly differently. However, I expect promotion of characters to be done largely through DLC, and not in the base roster. I expect this because the Pokemon series and Corrin are the only examples we have of a character being added primarily for marketing.

I expect the likes of Rex and Spring Man to be DLC shortly after the base game's release, and for characters like a gen 8 Pokemon or the new Fire Emblem lord to be added close to the release of their games.

While I would agree that Kimishima likely discussed the prospect of Smash Bros. on the Switch, I am not coninced that the conversation was anything more than "this console needs a Smash game in its second year." Kimoshima does not strike me as a man who asks for a person to alter their creative process.

If you'd like, I'll look for the actual post where I went more in depth with outlining it. I'll have to do some digging but I can dig it up. It's way more in-depth and probably makes more sense.

There is plenty of characters to choose as Smash Switch newcomers. Captain Toad, Bandana Dee, Ashley, Isabelle, Dixie Kong, Paper Mario and the Chorus Men are all examples of possible characters to chose from the 3DS/Wii U era. That's not even taking into account ballot choices, retro characters, curveball characters and/or third-party characters.



The whole argument to begin with revolved around the idea that Wii U titles won't be a big factor in character selection due to implication that Nintendo doesn't want anything to do with them, despite the ports contradicting that argument.



How does making more money for Nintendo along with how much more promoted it was not equal being more important to Nintendo than XC2 and ARMS? I mean, there's plenty of existing Nintendo IPs that could use some love in terms of playable characters just as much as XC2 and ARMS but they won't happen. Using the argument of new IPs and the growth of IPs, adding in something like Dillon and Chibi Robo could be argued to be just as valuable as adding in an ARMS character and arguable even more than XC2 (since they would represent a whole new franchise that got no playable characters as opposed to a second Xenoblade character).



The latter three gets more of a free pass because they are cartoony characters.

That was certainly not the argument I was making.

There are characters that could be chosen from the Wii U. That wasn't really the point I was making. However, the install base of the Switch is far larger than the Wii U. Far larger. It's not even comparable. The Switch was marketed better than the predecessor, and therefore the characters from early Switch games have had higher exposure than any Wii U game did when it first released.

In terms of Chibi-Robo vs. ARMS, one can stand on its own while the other cannot. Chibi-Robo has not been an incredibly successful series. As somebody who played Zip-Lash, I didn't even finish it myself. ARMS is more recognizable to the current base of Switch owners than Chibi-Robo. There's a clear difference there.

Dillon I will say is a little different. I think Dillon would be a great character to add despite his lack of exposure, but he DOES have a physical release coming as well. He's stuck around and was an AT in Wii U/3DS, so I think there's a chance that Sakurai could upgrade him. That's better than Chibi-Robo has gotten.

As far as BOTW and XC2 + ARMS, again, I specifically said that I thought they were equally important but for different reasons. It's not as if Nintendo didn't push XC2 or ARMS whatsoever. They pushed all three games. Zelda BOTW was groundbreaking in its own right as redefining itself. It's a series that has been out for decades changing the formula to a more contemporary game. Of course it's a big deal for Nintendo. I literally never said it wasn't. I'm not sure if you think that's what I was getting at...it wasn't at all.

If newer releases or other releases weren't as important as BOTW in the first year of a new console, then it would have been another Wii U situation. The first year for the Switch was critical. The Wii U suffered and ultimately failed because it never had a steady flow of new, compelling games. The Switch launched with Zelda (key title), the Summer was carried by Splatoon and ARMS (critical titles, sequel to big time new IP, first title of new Switch IP) and the end of the year ended with Xenoblade 2 (critical end of year title, sequel to highly acclaimed Wii title). Each game had a specific direct about everything in it. They were all important at different times and for different reasons.

Zelda making millions literally doesn't matter if the rest of the year has nothing to support the console.

 

[Luminario]

So how would the Savvy Stylist work? I'm interested to see how.

Well my thought was that she could switch clothes to switch her specials between 3 jobs in the games: clothes stylist, hair-dresser, and make-up artist, though being a model could also be added in there too. She could attack with clothes and accessories like striking with stilettos or swinging a handbag, throw perfume bottles as projectiles, throw down hair claws as traps, give a makeover as a command grab, stun foes with a phone camera flash, throw a wig at opponents faces, pretty much Drag Race but more violent.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That was certainly not the argument I was making.

There are characters that could be chosen from the Wii U. That wasn't really the point I was making. However, the install base of the Switch is far larger than the Wii U. Far larger. It's not even comparable. The Switch was marketed better than the predecessor, and therefore the characters from early Switch games have had higher exposure than any Wii U game did when it first released.

In terms of Chibi-Robo vs. ARMS, one can stand on its own while the other cannot. Chibi-Robo has not been an incredibly successful series. As somebody who played Zip-Lash, I didn't even finish it myself. ARMS is more recognizable to the current base of Switch owners than Chibi-Robo. There's a clear difference there.

The big mistake you made was using popularity as an argument despite the fact there was no way for Sakurai to know how successful the Switch or ARMS would have been back in 2016. So none of these factors would have mattered for the roster back in 2016.

. It's not as if Nintendo didn't push XC2 or ARMS whatsoever. They pushed all three games.

Yes, but Zelda was pushed far more, being the focus of E3 2016. It's not even comparable.

If newer releases or other releases weren't as important as BOTW in the first year of a new console, then it would have been another Wii U situation. The first year for the Switch was critical. The Wii U suffered and ultimately failed because it never had a steady flow of new, compelling games. The Switch launched with Zelda (key title), the Summer was carried by Splatoon and ARMS (critical titles) and the end of the year ended with Xenoblade 2 (critical end of year title). Each game had a specific direct about everything in it. They were all important at different times and for different reasons.

You forgot Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and especially Super Mario Oddysey along with several more since it wasn't just those 4 titles in the first year.

 

[Kotor]

So how do you feel about this video's argument about Bandanna Dee's moveset potential:

Shouldn't the Defense be the one defending Bandana Dee? I feel like the roles were reversed.

 

[Garteam]

With the BOTW champions, what if all four got in. But they were half-clones?


Urbosa as a half-clone of Link. She can use BOTW equivalent weapons compared to Link's. Save for the bombs, instead she has her fury. Also she has a normal grab instead of a hook-shot.


Durak as a half-clone of Bowser. More rolling than spinning, he has no fire breath, but his protection instead. It acts as reflector shield whilst making him immune to damage while up. Punching, headbutting, drop-kicking and slamming right down from the air suit his powerful build. Also he pulls his weapon out for taunts.


Mipha as a half-clone of Palutena. Spinning her spear on water, she can also slap people with the H2O for smashes, vaguely like the wings. A jet of water for the up-smash and an ice wall for the reflector. No auto reticule, but instead she charges her grace and when finished, bestows herself with reduced knockback for the next five hits.


Revali as a half-clone of Decidueye. No ghost moves or grass moves, but wind moves for similar affects. A better flier than the pokemon, he has more end lag on his moves but is far more mobile. Also sass, lots of sass. Sass for days.


Four semi clones would probably be less or equal effort to a full character. Would people be happy with this, or would this be too much BOTW?



I'd still be greedy and want Midna as well... :x

This isn't an awful idea to get the champions in, but it would cause a fury unlike no other from the folks who care about reps. /v/ and reddit would ignite in a negative storm at the idea of Zelda getting 9 roster spots while Metroid or Donkey kong only gets 2/3. It would be the current Fire Emblem issue multiplied by 10.

 

[Pakky]

Bandana Dee not able to have a moveset without borrowing stuff from others like Parasol Dee?
Even when BD himself uses a Parasol in Battle Royale so he isn't borrowing anything? And there is nothing wrong with borrowing things?

I don't really understand.

Yeah, Ness and Lucas can't even use half the stuff they do in Smash they 'BORROW" from their party members.

If you wanna get meta about it Kirby doesn't even have abilities of his own other than inhale.

And it's not even true, the only Special Moves that write themselves are Waddlecopter and Spear Throw.
All the other attacks are more suited for Tilts, Smashes or Aerials.

So, Sakurai would have to think about more unique and fun stuff, like Parasol, Elements from Star Allies, using Kirby items, summon other Waddle Dees?, like the possibilities are endless if you have a little of imagination.

Sakurai made Pac-Man throw Fire Hydrants, like, yeah, that happened.

Also remember Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Capt. Falcon were all pictures on the screen with no abilities in their own games, yet here they are out of the cockpits and ready to fight.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

With the BOTW champions, what if all four got in. But they were half-clones?


Urbosa as a half-clone of Link. She can use BOTW equivalent weapons compared to Link's. Save for the bombs, instead she has her fury. Also she has a normal grab instead of a hook-shot.


Durak as a half-clone of Bowser. More rolling than spinning, he has no fire breath, but his protection instead. It acts as reflector shield whilst making him immune to damage while up. Punching, headbutting, drop-kicking and slamming right down from the air suit his powerful build. Also he pulls his weapon out for taunts.


Mipha as a half-clone of Palutena. Spinning her spear on water, she can also slap people with the H2O for smashes, vaguely like the wings. A jet of water for the up-smash and an ice wall for the reflector. No auto reticule, but instead she charges her grace and when finished, bestows herself with reduced knockback for the next five hits.


Revali as a half-clone of Decidueye. No ghost moves or grass moves, but wind moves for similar affects. A better flier than the pokemon, he has more end lag on his moves but is far more mobile. Also sass, lots of sass. Sass for days.


Four semi clones would probably be less or equal effort to a full character. Would people be happy with this, or would this be too much BOTW?



I'd still be greedy and want Midna as well... :x

I'd rather just have a completely unique mipha so no thanks, there's no rule we need all 4 (see charizard and greninja) and she offers more than the rest of them would imo.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

The big mistake you made was using popularity as an argument despite the fact there was no way for Sakurai to know how successful the Switch or ARMS would have been back in 2016. So none of these factors would have mattered for the roster back in 2016.

Whether or not the switch is successful doesn't matter at all for this. He's making a game for the console, concerned with advertising games for the console because that's where all the current effort is. Even if the Switch was another horrible failure, it's not like he'd say "Well, I guess this means we should have promoted games for the Gamecube and Wii instead."

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The big mistake you made was using popularity as an argument despite the fact there was no way for Sakurai to know how successful the Switch or ARMS would have been back in 2016. So none of these factors would have mattered for the roster back in 2016.



You forgot Splatoon 2, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and especially Super Mario Oddysey since it wasn't just those three titles in the first year.

Your argument still falls apart between ARMS and Chibi-Robo, because Chibi-Robo still cannot stand on its own. It's comparing an unknown to a commercial failure.

I actually included Splatoon 2 in the summer. Sure, there were other titles. Those titles don't invalidate my points however. The titles I listed still came at key points throughout the first year, and were marketed as just that...big Switch titles that were key to the first year.

Hell, I could be wrong at the end of the day and we don't get Rex & Pyra on the base roster. I won't really care that much, because i'll be playing Smash Bros. and enjoying the characters that DO get added. I would LOVE to play as one of the Zelda champions. I simply don't know that they will be added.

At this point to me it seems like this argument has turned into selecting a valid point and saying, "Yes, but...!" which is splitting hairs which doesn't make for a good debate.

Any of the Champions, Rex & Pyra, or Spring Man would make for great Smash characters. All were heavily marketed regardless of how much one was over the others.

 

[Super Flygon]

With the BOTW champions, what if all four got in. But they were half-clones?


Urbosa as a half-clone of Link. She can use BOTW equivalent weapons compared to Link's. Save for the bombs, instead she has her fury. Also she has a normal grab instead of a hook-shot.


Durak as a half-clone of Bowser. More rolling than spinning, he has no fire breath, but his protection instead. It acts as reflector shield whilst making him immune to damage while up. Punching, headbutting, drop-kicking and slamming right down from the air suit his powerful build. Also he pulls his weapon out for taunts.


Mipha as a half-clone of Palutena. Spinning her spear on water, she can also slap people with the H2O for smashes, vaguely like the wings. A jet of water for the up-smash and an ice wall for the reflector. No auto reticule, but instead she charges her grace and when finished, bestows herself with reduced knockback for the next five hits.


Revali as a half-clone of Decidueye. No ghost moves or grass moves, but wind moves for similar affects. A better flier than the pokemon, he has more end lag on his moves but is far more mobile. Also sass, lots of sass. Sass for days.


Four semi clones would probably be less or equal effort to a full character. Would people be happy with this, or would this be too much BOTW?



I'd still be greedy and want Midna as well... :x

Though I'd personally like to see the BOTW Champions playable (I'd prefer it to be all 4 in one slot, where you can switch between them in battle), it might be more likely for their abilities to be incorporated into BOTW Link's movesets, especially as custom moves (assuming customs return).

Revali's Gale- New Up Special involving the Paraglider.
Urbosa's Fury- Move Spin Attack to Side Special.
Mipha's Grace- Either some sort of new down special or some one time, hard to do thing involving Link have a high percentage of damage.
Daruk's Protection- Either a new down special or something involving blocking.

Of course, it could also be that the only involvement the Champions get is from BOTW Link's Final Smash, which could be based on the final attack the Divine Beasts do on Hyrule Castle. This is all assuming BOTW Link is his own character and doesn't replace Classic Link.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

This isn't an awful idea to get the champions in, but it would cause a fury unlike no other from the folks who care about reps. /v/ and reddit would ignite in a negative storm at the idea of Zelda getting 9 roster spots while Metroid or Donkey kong only gets 2/3. It would be the current Fire Emblem issue multiplied by 10.

Nah. A big reason why Fire Emblem got flack for getting 6 characters is due to how iconic the franchise is relative to Pokemon, Mario and Zelda. Zelda, being one of Nintendo's biggest franchises, would get more of a free pass, especially given how well-recieved and successful BotW is.

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

This is an interesting concept and I wouldn't be upset at all, but 4 Zelda newcomers is a lot even if they were all clones.
However I just want to point out that I love your idea for Mipha's Grace. I personally think she is the most likely of the Champions and I think she should have Mipha's Grace in her moveset but I don't know if a healing ability like that would be unbalanced. I think it could be balanced but I have no idea about balancing fighting games lol. Your idea sounds like a cool way to work around it though!

I too felt a pure healing ability would be very difficult to balance. I actually spent a while pondering it. I concluded the core aspect of her ability is that it saves you from dying when things go wrong. In smash, dying usually means hitting a blast zone, so I figured the parallel is something to stop you flying off to the blast zone.

One hit being reduced a lot seems harder to balance than several hits being moderately reduced. I went with five because that's how many golden hearts Mipha's Grace gives you. They could also be represented on her icon at the bottom, to keep track of how many you have left.


I was going to try and come up with a full moveset for all four as semi-clones, but figured the clone aspect would polarize people, so I didn't feel like going so far for the idea.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Though I'd personally like to see the BOTW Champions playable (I'd prefer it to be all 4 in one slot, where you can switch between them in battle), it might be more likely for their abilities to be incorporated into BOTW Link's movesets, especially as custom moves (assuming customs return).

Revali's Gale- New Up Special involving the Paraglider.
Urbosa's Fury- Move Spin Attack to Side Special.
Mipha's Grace- Either some sort of new down special or some one time, hard to do thing involving Link have a high percentage of damage.
Daruk's Protection- Either a new down special or something involving blocking.

Of course, it could also be that the only involvement the Champions get is from BOTW Link's Final Smash, which could be based on the final attack the Divine Beasts do on Hyrule Castle. This is all assuming BOTW Link is his own character and doesn't replace Classic Link.

To do that you'd have to get rid of Link's bow and bombs, it makes more sense to give link the runes and Zelda the champion abilities since she's their leader after all.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If are out of place for being realistic looking humans (which is kinda silly when I have never met anyone who looks like Bayonetta or Cloud. Bayonetta is even intentionally designed by a woman to be the impossible beauty standard she always wanted for herself.) it's time to cut .

You weird proportionally human looking freaks, get out of my roster!

 

[Super Flygon]

To do that you'd have to get rid of Link's bow and bombs, it makes more sense to give link the runes and Zelda the champion abilities since she's their leader after all.

You're right that it might be better for the abilities to be incorporated into Zelda, although Link is the one who uses them in-game. To be fair, I don't really consider it all that likely anyways.

I do consider it likely for Link to the BOTW moves though. I've made some changes though.

Up: Spin Attack, and afterwards can open the Paraglider (basically functions as it did in BOTW).
Side: Arrows (Regular, Fire, Shock, Ice, Ancient. The one you get is random, wit regular being the most common and ancient being the rarest).
Down: Runes (can cycle through similar to Shulk's Monado Arts).

 

[Sage of Ice]

Nah. A big reason why Fire Emblem got flack for getting 6 characters is due to how iconic the franchise is relative to Pokemon, Mario and Zelda. Zelda, being one of Nintendo's biggest franchises, would get more of a free pass, especially given how well-recieved and successful BotW is.

i was just making this point in another thread! my problem with getting an additional four fire emblem slots isn't "screw fire emblem," it's the seeming favoritism it got over other long-running and popular brands. if we got dixie and k rool, ridley and dark samus, got krystal and kept wolf, i wouldn't have had such an issue.

 

[Pakky]

i was just making this point in another thread! my problem with getting an additional four fire emblem slots isn't "screw fire emblem," it's the seeming favoritism it got over other long-running and popular brands. if we got dixie and k rool, ridley and dark samus, got krystal and kept wolf, i wouldn't have had such an issue.

Ditto, I agree.

and them not being wholly different is a little well stingy

 

[Wyoming]

Also remember Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Capt. Falcon were all pictures on the screen with no abilities in their own games, yet here they are out of the cockpits and ready to fight.

I love being pedantic for no reason - when Wolf was added in Brawl he was playable in Assault multiplayer outside of his Wolfen.

Why, he's quite violent when he wins even!

 

[Originality]

What if we get a Zelda character from Botw and it's someone no one even expected like Purah or the Old Man. I'd love for Sidon to be in the game in some capacity

 

[Pacack]

What if we get a Zelda character from Botw and it's someone no one even expected like Purah or the Old Man. I'd love for Sidon to be in the game in some capacity

Beedle 4 Smash

 

[Garteam]

Nah. A big reason why Fire Emblem got flack for getting 6 characters is due to how iconic the franchise is relative to Pokemon, Mario and Zelda. Zelda, being one of Nintendo's biggest franchises, would get more of a free pass, especially given how well-recieved and successful BotW is.

I respectfully disagree, while I do think Fire Emblem's size related to the backlash, it was the jump in Fire Emblem characters that caught everyone's eye. Going from 2 to 6 was the big deal for a lot of people. Likewise, seeing Zelda go from 5 to 9 would catch people off guard and make the guardians easy targets for "why didn't x get in when y did" syndrome.

Every other comment regarding disatisfaction with the roster would be "Why can't DK get 3 reps but Zelda can get 9?" or "Why didn't Bandana Waddle Dee get in but all 4 guardians did?". Considering Fire Emblem also underwent a revival around the time of SSB4 but still got comments complaining about oversaturation, it is unlikely the champions would get a free pass from anyone other than the most die-hard Zelda fans.

 

[Pakky]

I love being pedantic for no reason - when Wolf was added in Brawl he was playable in Assault multiplayer outside of his Wolfen.

Why, he's quite violent when he wins even!

Didn't know that... Ya got me!

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Bandana Dee not able to have a moveset without borrowing stuff from others like Parasol Dee?
Even when BD himself uses a Parasol in Battle Royale so he isn't borrowing anything? And there is nothing wrong with borrowing things?

I don't really understand.

Not weighing in on GX, they're terrible and I don't want to give them viewtime. That being said...

BWD should not use a parasol. It's just sloppy design to have a character pulling out props for the sake of it.
"But it's canon... in this spinoff"
Yeah, and the design in current installments is spotty at best, or do you want to defend Dr. Healmore Kirby?

More to the point, BWD has a weapon that hasn't been used in the series in a style that has very little representation. There's more than enough of a moveset just using the spear. Moreover, the only real use of the parasol is for an air mobility gimmick, which he really doesn't need because he already has the helicopter spin.

 

[Antimatter042]

I too felt a pure healing ability would be very difficult to balance. I actually spent a while pondering it. I concluded the core aspect of her ability is that it saves you from dying when things go wrong. In smash, dying usually means hitting a blast zone, so I figured the parallel is something to stop you flying off to the blast zone.

One hit being reduced a lot seems harder to balance than several hits being moderately reduced. I went with five because that's how many golden hearts Mipha's Grace gives you. They could also be represented on her icon at the bottom, to keep track of how many you have left.

My idea for Mipha's Grace would be (apologies for the lack of innovation) a counter that doesn't damage the opponent, but pushes them back from Mipha with a wave of water and heals her for half the damage she would have received.

So how do you feel about this video's argument about Bandanna Dee's moveset potential:

I was initially interested in the Bandana Waddle Dee video; it's poorly done and I expected much more of GameXplain. The arguments about Dedede's moveset stripping out Waddle Dees were little more than childish headcanons that ignored the actual reasons of reducing randomness in moves and the 3DS obviously choking at the mere prospect of that many Dees at once, and treating that as the final nail in the coffin at the end of the video left a very bad taste in my mouth. Most of the other arguments against the character were just about Dee being generic, even though those arguments have been ripped to shreds many times over.

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

My idea for Mipha's Grace would be (apologies for the lack of innovation) a counter that doesn't damage the opponent, but pushes them back from Mipha with a wave of water and heals her for half the damage she would have received.

That's an interesting take. Sort of like Ness and Lucas's absorbs being turned into a counter. What would happen if a projectile triggered it? Would she be invincible during it?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If are out of place for being realistic looking humans (which is kinda silly when I have never met anyone who looks like Bayonetta or Cloud. Bayonetta is even intentionally designed by a woman to be the impossible beauty standard she always wanted for herself.) it's time to cut .

You weird proportionally human looking freaks, get out of my roster!

I have seen people say the Fire Emblem characters and Shulk look out of place.

 

[Antimatter042]

That's an interesting take. Sort of like Ness and Lucas's absorbs being turned into a counter. What would happen if a projectile triggered it? Would she be invincible during it?

To be perfectly honest I haven't put enough thought into the idea to ensure it would be balanced around scenarios like that. Making this up as I go along, I guess she could heal off a projectile, but would still be vulnerable as the push back is a non issue, so the projectile user would have an opportunity to approach. I would also imagine a fairly severe staling effect (to the degree of Witch Time in 4? I don't have Bayo so I'm unsure if that would be reasonable) would be necessary for the move to be balanced.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'd rather keep out the Champions as characters.

I was thinking about if Tingle, loved character to the Japanese and troll to the Americans, then Waluigi could balance him out.

Green and Purple, in perfect balance.

 

[SchAlternate]

If are out of place for being realistic looking humans (which is kinda silly when I have never met anyone who looks like Bayonetta or Cloud. Bayonetta is even intentionally designed by a woman to be the impossible beauty standard she always wanted for herself.) it's time to cut .

You weird proportionally human looking freaks, get out of my roster!

Mandatory Awkward Zombie reference, coming through.