Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MrRoidley]

I haven't seen this place in ages, so I have a question, assuming the Ridley and Simon Belmont rumours are true, how would you all feel? Personally I'd lose my **** for Ridley and although I only played 2 CastleVania games, I had my fair share of fun and would welcome the Belmont legacy in Smash

Same here. Ridley is one of my most wanted while Belmont has all the legacy, they'd really fit in

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

While I think the Champions are cool characters, by no means do I think BOTW NEEDS a character. For any one game to “need” a character is stretching it. There are tons of other ways the game can be represented. To place the responsibility of game representation specifically on a character seems...I don’t know. To each their own, but I’m not sure that’s the best idea.

One thing Sakurai does think about with particular characters is their future, or their potential for a future in Nintendo. Now, while the Champions could provide great gameplay and are stars of the newest game...these are two things that also applied to Ghirahim, Zant, and Midna. The Champions are rather integral to the plot, but again, so were the other 3.

I by no means would be upset from seeing any of the 4 Champions to be playable, but I don’t really think they NEED to be playable. I suspect Link and Zelda will be retooled to fit BOTW, and we’ll get a stage and probably AT’s as well as trophies or even items from the game. Character might be great, but from my POV I wouldn’t mind if they skipped it.

 

[Jak_spoon]

That's why I'm putting so much fuel into BotW. If that game can't get a newcomer, good luck making your case for a future Zelda game.

You know, it's pretty sad that something as incredible as BotW can come out, but no one can be optimistic about a series as popular as Zelda getting a newcomer because Sakurai has been so reserved in the past. That should tell us just how much we desperately need to get a Zelda newcomer now. Literally anything would open the door to future characters getting in Smash.

Agreed. But Sakurai's "Game's Release Golden Window" is very much a real thing and I don't think that it can be ignored. It has ruined so many characters chances already.

I do also agree with what you said earlier about BotW being a big deal. I solidly expect Zelda to get two newcomers that will be any combination of a Gannondorf rework, Zelda rework, Skull Kid, or Midna. With the only reasons that Skull Kid and Midna having even a slight bit of a chance is that their games were popular/requested enough by fans to get remakes and PKMN Trainer was able to get in off of a remake.

 

[RandomAce]

Question for everyone. What is the likelihood of two new Mario characters this game?

64:
Melee:
Brawl: None, but can be argued.
SSB4:()

More often than not, we've gotten more than one Mario newcomer each Smash game. The exception to this is Brawl, though we did still get Wario's Mario series design, which can be seen as a partial newcomer for the series.

The extended Mario universe could also be considered, which would give us and , with a mean of about 3 Mario universe newcomers each game. This would extend to potential picks like Dixie, King K. Rool, Ashley, and Kamek.

Is there anything to draw conclusions from there? Should we expect 3 +/- 1 Mario universe characters? Am I looking too far into this to find patterns that don't exist?

Find out in our next episode of Super Smash Bros speculation!

There isn’t really a set pattern. We go from 2 to 3 then to basically 0 (and 1 cut) and back to 2 newcomers (with 1 veteran). So no, the number of newcomers each game doesn’t really mean anything. The only candidate I can think is remotley possible is Captain Toad by far, but other than that there really isn’t any other character that I think can get in.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Question for everyone. What is the likelihood of two new Mario characters this game?

64:
Melee:
Brawl: None, but can be argued.
SSB4:()

More often than not, we've gotten more than one Mario newcomer each Smash game. The exception to this is Brawl, though we did still get Wario's Mario series design, which can be seen as a partial newcomer for the series.

The extended Mario universe could also be considered, which would give us and , with a mean of about 3 Mario universe newcomers each game. This would extend to potential picks like Dixie, King K. Rool, Ashley, and Kamek.

Is there anything to draw conclusions from there? Should we expect 3 +/- 1 Mario universe characters? Am I looking too far into this to find patterns that don't exist?

Find out in our next episode of Super Smash Bros speculation!

With Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker and Paper Mario: Color Splash both being one of the few WiiU games left that weren't represented in Smash, I'd say the chance is pretty high for both to join the fray.
Add Geno as a sort of semi-Square rep and possibly Daisy as a clone and you've got a bunch of potential Mario characters

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

From what @FlareHabanero mentioned yesterday, I think something to keep in mind is the lack of true firepower in terms of titles that came out during the Wii U era. If I have time today I'm going to take a look at what has come out since Smash Wii U came out/DLC ended and take a look at 1st party games. The Wii U was largely filled with Mario titles, whereas I think the 3DS has much more to use.

From what I'm already thinking about, I think there's absolutely a chance that the focus of this game is more current stuff. There's really nothing to prove it, but all I will say is that the two things we know are already in Smash are Inklings and BOTW Link. If I remember correctly, BOTW was the last 1st Party title Nintendo developed for Wii U, and if that's the game that connects the Wii U generation and the Switch generation, I think it's completely plausible that they're looking to the future. How far into the future? I can't say.

Like I said I'm going to take a look in a little bit.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Au contraire mon ami, I'm not using random reasons to brush off your examples, I'm giving you actual patterns that Sakurai has used multiple games to show you why I don't hold any stock for the champions. And yes, I do honestly believe all of the reasons I presented would stop Sakurai from looking at the champions because it has stopped him with other characters time and time again.

Edit: osby "Just my guess but it might be hard to make Midna playable if she's not together with Wolf Link and Link was already in the roster as a separete character."

That is exactly my thought too.

Time and time again being Midna in Brawl (the game where Toon Link got in despite being very clearly based on the Wind Waker design alone) and a Skyward Sword character in Smash 4?
Because that's not exactly an actual pattern and a pretty poor basis to exclude a character from, especially since human Ganondorf, Sheik and Toon Link got in based on one game and Young Link got in based on two games.
It's bold at best and idiotic at worst to be this high and mighty about a roster decision based on an argument with more exception than rule to it

 

[Cosmic77]

While I think the Champions are cool characters, by no means do I think BOTW NEEDS a character. For any one game to “need” a character is stretching it. There are tons of other ways the game can be represented. To place the responsibility of game representation specifically on a character seems...I don’t know. To each their own, but I’m not sure that’s the best idea.

One thing Sakurai does think about with particular characters is their future, or their potential for a future in Nintendo. Now, while the Champions could provide great gameplay and are stars of the newest game...these are two things that also applied to Ghirahim, Zant, and Midna. The Champions are rather integral to the plot, but again, so were the other 3.

I by no means would be upset from seeing any of the 4 Champions to be playable, but I don’t really think they NEED to be playable. I suspect Link and Zelda will be retooled to fit BOTW, and we’ll get a stage and probably AT’s as well as trophies or even items from the game. Character might be great, but from my POV I wouldn’t mind if they skipped it.

Don't think BotW "needs" a character, but it definitely "deserves" a character, at least when you compare what it accomplished to everything else that happened to Zelda since OoT.

I'll admit, seeing TP not get a newcomer was admittingly a little shocking to me, but in retrospect, I suppose it shouldn't have been. It underperformed in Japan and wasn't too different from the series' norm. Plus, Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf all appeared in that game, so a simple redesign of the entire cast in addition to Toon Link might have felt like enough Zelda content for Sakurai. SS not getting a newcomer was by no means surprising. The game got mixed reviews, had OK sales, and wasn't anything too different from what Zelda games normally played like. Once I saw that Zelda kept her TP design, I knew SS was getting shafted in Smash 4.

BotW is in a whole different ballpark. I know I keep repeating this, but I can't stress it enough. This game was one of Nintendo's biggest wins in several years, and I truly believe that Sakurai will want to do more this time than just reworking the old Melee characters and adding a few new ATs.

 

[Jak_spoon]

Time and time again being Midna in Brawl (the game where Toon Link got in despite being very clearly based on the Wind Waker design alone) and a Skyward Sword character in Smash 4?
Because that's not exactly an actual pattern and a pretty poor basis to exclude a character from, especially since human Ganondorf, Sheik and Toon Link got in based on one game and Young Link got in based on two games.
It's bold at best and idiotic at worst to be this high and mighty about a roster decision based on an argument with more exception than rule to it

I'm going to need some clarity on that. I have no clue what you're saying.

 

[Sigran101]

Semi-odd examples, but yeah. R.O.B. has his own reasons for being, same with Wolf.

It's why the "is currently relevant" or "game was released within the right time frame for Sakurai to get information during development" isn't the only factor. They're absolutely factors and do influence some of the roster. But not the be-end-all. Wolf was pretty much only in due to being easier to make than Krystal, as he was a retool of Fox, so a different kind of clone(one that people can't easily tell is one outside of the special moves at best). Never mind him using some moves among other cast members. Not that any of this is a bad thing)including being clone-related).

Anyway, I think he's gotten information on BOTW and S/M stuff before their actual releases. Not that it means we're absolutely getting a character from them(S/M I think is more likely than BOTW myself, but eh).

Well yeah, they had plenty going for them, but they were not the most popular choices. Iirc more people wanted Krystal than wolf and ROB wasn't really talked about until the leak. They got in for reasons other than popularity basically.

 

[Pacack]

There isn’t really a set pattern. We go from 2 to 3 then to basically 0 (and 1 cut) and back to 2 newcomers (with 1 veteran). So no, the number of newcomers each game doesn’t really mean anything. The only candidate I can think is remotley possible is Captain Toad by far, but other than that there really isn’t any other character that I think can get in.

I think it's fair to say there's not a pattern, per se, but I do think we overlook the possibility of two Mario newcomers.

Paper Mario, Waluigi, Daisy, and even debatably Kamek as a Yoshi villain/Mario side villain make sense as potential inclusions.

With Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker and Paper Mario: Color Splash both being one of the few WiiU games left that weren't represented in Smash, I'd say the chance is pretty high for both to join the fray.
Add Geno as a sort of semi-Square rep and possibly Daisy as a clone and you've got a bunch of potential Mario characters

Do you think Waluigi has any chance? He's absurdly popular with casual Nintendo fans, and could have been relatively high on the ballot.

Kamek also makes sense if we're looking at game releases. Wooly World, Yoshi and Poochy's 3DS version, New Island, and Mario releases like NSMBU make him an often-overlooked recurring character.

(Disclaimer: I don't think Kamek is likely, but I do think he deserves to be discussed as a possibility.)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

From what @FlareHabanero mentioned yesterday, I think something to keep in mind is the lack of true firepower in terms of titles that came out during the Wii U era. If I have time today I'm going to take a look at what has come out since Smash Wii U came out/DLC ended and take a look at 1st party games. The Wii U was largely filled with Mario titles, whereas I think the 3DS has much more to use.

I'll help you with making a list of notable 3DS/Wii U titles.

· Splatoon (confirmed)
· Star Fox (Zero and Guard)
· Miitopia
· Captain Toad
· Rhythm Heaven Megamix
· Pokémon Sun/Moon
· Codename STEAM
· Chibi Robo Zip Lash
· Xenoblade Chronicles X
· Paper Mario Color Splash
· Kirby Triple Deluxe
· Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
· Legend of Zelda A Link Between Worlds
· Triforce Heroes
· Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze
· Super Mario 3D World
· The Wonderful 101
· Kirby: Planet Robobot
· Style Savvy: Fashion Forward
· Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
· Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam
· Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire
· Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia (was meant to be released in 2016 before being delayed)
· NintendoLand
· Wii Party U

While I think the Champions are cool characters, by no means do I think BOTW NEEDS a character. For any one game to “need” a character is stretching it. There are tons of other ways the game can be represented. To place the responsibility of game representation specifically on a character seems...I don’t know. To each their own, but I’m not sure that’s the best idea.

No game "needs" a character and yet here we are with people getting upset at the possibility of no newcomers from a Switch-era game. Isn't this argument kinda hypocritical since it is only applied to BotW when it could equally be applicable to any other game like XC2 or ARMS?

Iirc more people wanted Krystal than wolf and ROB wasn't really talked about until the leak.

Wolf was highly requested among the silent majority.

 

[RandomAce]

From what @FlareHabanero mentioned yesterday, I think something to keep in mind is the lack of true firepower in terms of titles that came out during the Wii U era. If I have time today I'm going to take a look at what has come out since Smash Wii U came out/DLC ended and take a look at 1st party games. The Wii U was largely filled with Mario titles, whereas I think the 3DS has much more to use.

From what I'm already thinking about, I think there's absolutely a chance that the focus of this game is more current stuff. There's really nothing to prove it, but all I will say is that the two things we know are already in Smash are Inklings and BOTW Link. If I remember correctly, BOTW was the last 1st Party title Nintendo developed for Wii U, and if that's the game that connects the Wii U generation and the Switch generation, I think it's completely plausible that they're looking to the future. How far into the future? I can't say.

Like I said I'm going to take a look in a little bit.

Hopefully it helps us decide which newcomers can have a chance at getting. There wasn’t alot of firepower games released in the last generation which means there aren’t alot of newcomers that the devs can add. So I believe that Sakurai decided to look into future titles because there weren’t really many options left that devs could add from the last generation. So I believe it will be a mix of Wii U/3DS era characters, Switch era characters, retro characters, ballot characters, and third parties

Here’s my input on the roster:
- 2-3 from the previous generation
- 2-3 from future titles
- 2-4 from the ballot
- 1-2 retro characters
- 1-2 third parties
- 1-3 returning veterans

Maximum I believe we’ll get 14 newcomers plus 3 veterans putting the roster at 17 characters, at minimum 9 newcomers and 1 veteran, giving us 10 characters.This doesn’t include reworks.

Any thoughts?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

From what @FlareHabanero mentioned yesterday, I think something to keep in mind is the lack of true firepower in terms of titles that came out during the Wii U era. If I have time today I'm going to take a look at what has come out since Smash Wii U came out/DLC ended and take a look at 1st party games. The Wii U was largely filled with Mario titles, whereas I think the 3DS has much more to use.

From what I'm already thinking about, I think there's absolutely a chance that the focus of this game is more current stuff. There's really nothing to prove it, but all I will say is that the two things we know are already in Smash are Inklings and BOTW Link. If I remember correctly, BOTW was the last 1st Party title Nintendo developed for Wii U, and if that's the game that connects the Wii U generation and the Switch generation, I think it's completely plausible that they're looking to the future. How far into the future? I can't say.

Like I said I'm going to take a look in a little bit.

I think there's kind of an issue with this thinking though, yes the wii u was lacking in games to pull stuff from but what is there to pull from the switch apart from Xenoblade 2 and Arms anyway? That's only 2 characters.

When it comes to games that came out between 2012 (4's roster finalization date) and 2016 (when we're assuming this games roster will be finalized) that you can pull characters from we still have:
Splatoon (obvi)
DKC: Tropical Freeze
Pokemon Sun and Moon
Xenoblade Chronicles X
2 Animal Crossing spin-offs
Paper Mario: Colour Splash
Captain Toad
The Wonderful 101
A ****load of Zelda
Kirby Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot and Rainbow Curse
Star Fox Zero
Rhythm Heaven 3DS
Chibi-Robo
Code Name Steam
The Dillon games

It's not like nothing came out during that time.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think there's kind of an issue with this thinking though, yes the wii u was lacking in games to pull stuff from but what is there to pull from the switch apart from Xenoblade 2 and Arms anyway? That's only 2 characters.

When it comes to games that came out between 2012 (4's roster finalization date) and 2016 (when we're assuming this games roster will be finalized) that you can pull characters from we still have:
DKC: Tropical Freeze
Pokemon Sun and Moon
Xenoblade Chronicles X
2 Animal Crossing spin-offs
Paper Mario: Colour Splash
Captain Toad
The Wonderful 101
A ****load of Zelda
Kirby Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot and Rainbow Curse
Star Fox Zero
Rhythm Heaven 3DS
Chibi-Robo
Code Name Steam
The Dillon games

It's not like nothing came out during that time.

Don't forget ballot choices. The Melee poll gave us characters like who ranked high on it, so it's possible we could get 3-4 newcomers from the ballot.

 

[Koopaul]

I'll help you with making a list of notable 3DS/Wii U titles.

· Splatoon (confirmed)
· Star Fox (Zero and Guard)
· Miitopia
· Captain Toad
· Rhythm Heaven Megamix
· Pokémon Sun/Moon
· Codename STEAM
· Chibi Robo Zip Lash
· Xenoblade Chronicles X
· Paper Mario Color Splash
· Kirby Triple Deluxe
· Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
· Legend of Zelda A Link Between Worlds
· Triforce Heroes
· Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze
· Super Mario 3D World
· The Wonderful 101
· Kirby: Planet Robobot
· Style Savvy: Fashion Forward
· Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
· Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam
· Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire
· Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia
· NintendoLand
· Wii Party U

Wasn't there a Fire Emblem Echoes? Or Tokyo Mirage?

Then we have a whole slew of smaller eShop series like Dillon's Rolling Western and BoxBoy. With the limited amount of things to pull from there is a possibility that Sakurai might have to pull from one of these eShop series.

 

[BluePikmin11]

So how do you feel about this video's argument about Bandanna Dee's moveset potential:

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'll help you with making a list of notable 3DS/Wii U titles.

· Splatoon (confirmed)
· Star Fox (Zero and Guard)
· Miitopia
· Captain Toad
· Rhythm Heaven Megamix
· Pokémon Sun/Moon
· Codename STEAM
· Chibi Robo Zip Lash
· Xenoblade Chronicles X
· Paper Mario Color Splash
· Kirby Triple Deluxe
· Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
· Legend of Zelda A Link Between Worlds
· Triforce Heroes
· Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze
· Super Mario 3D World
· The Wonderful 101
· Kirby: Planet Robobot
· Style Savvy: Fashion Forward
· Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
· Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam
· Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire
· Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia
· NintendoLand
· Wii Party U



No games "needs" a character and yet here we are with people getting upset at the possibility of no newcomers from a Switch-era game. Isn't this argument kinda hypocritical since it is only applied to BotW when it could equally be applicable to any other game like XC2 or ARMS?



Wolf was highly requested among the silent majority.

First, thank you for the start of the list. I appreciate the head start.

Second, I don't really find it hypocritical. To me, it depends on the series and what the focus of the new Smash is going to be. By no means do I think Switch games NEED to be represented, but we're also comparing series like Zelda, which has a history of over 25 years now, to two newer series with far less content that are clear examples of new IP flourishing on the Switch. There's a distinction there. You could make the argument that BOTW is an example of Zelda flourishing on the Switch, and I would agree.

Not to mention, adding one of the Champions (basically, the Midna, Zant, Ghirahim of BOTW) isn't necessarily the same as dding a main character of XC2 or ARMS. To me that's not the same thing.

I think there's kind of an issue with this thinking though, yes the wii u was lacking in games to pull stuff from but what is there to pull from the switch apart from Xenoblade 2 and Arms anyway? That's only 2 characters.

When it comes to games that came out between 2012 (4's roster finalization date) and 2016 (when we're assuming this games roster will be finalized) that you can pull characters from we still have:
Splatoon (obvi)
DKC: Tropical Freeze
Pokemon Sun and Moon
Xenoblade Chronicles X
2 Animal Crossing spin-offs
Paper Mario: Colour Splash
Captain Toad
The Wonderful 101
A ****load of Zelda
Kirby Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot and Rainbow Curse
Star Fox Zero
Rhythm Heaven 3DS
Chibi-Robo
Code Name Steam
The Dillon games

It's not like nothing came out during that time.

Thank you for the head start as well!

The reason I think it's worth looking into Switch titles is because of what Habanero was hinting at...Nintendo is quickly trying to forget the Wii U. The Switch is pretty big now, as are the titles on it.

Don't forget ballot choices. The Melee poll gave us characters like who ranked high on it, so it's possible we could get 3-4 newcomers from the ballot.

This is good to consider as well.

I think there's a decent chance that a decent number of newcomers could come from the ballot, while others will simply come from what Sakurai has seen. Based on the turnaround and development time, that seems like a decent train of thought to go by.

Alright seriously though, I need to get back to work. YOU ALL KEEP DISTRACTING ME!

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I know this is going to be a little rough on folks, but I'm sorry. I've felt the need to say this for a while.

People who think are weird and out of place.

Are you okay?
They're no more out of place than .

Bayonetta is a new IP to Nintendo that Nintendo has invested a lot in, they've clearly been happy with it's success if their investor meeting is to be believed and consider it among top Nintendo titles coming out for the Switch. Not Third Party.

So in that right Bayonetta getting into Smash would've happened one way or another. She's an IP they're really pushing, think is thriving in their eyes and want more of. She's no different than adding when he was added.

As for the other two?

Ryu. Wow. You realize Smash is a fighting game right? Street Fighter MADE fighting games. Ryu MADE Smash possible by being the successful icon that he is. If Mr. Fighting Game stands out like a sore thumb to you in the biggest fighting crossover game in the world? He's not the problem. You are.

Cloud is the most iconic lead of one of the most iconic RPG titles in the world. One with deep ties to Nintendo even if it's latest installments haven't been on a Nintendo platform. Cloud crafted everything we've come to know about a good deal of RPG leads after him. Not just in his own home series. Associating Cloud with Sony is your own hang up. He was never Sony's. He was Square's and they're free to put him wherever they want.

I'd also argue if you are okay with , you should be okay with Ryu and Cloud, because overall? I think Ryu and Cloud did more impactful things to their genre and gaming than he did. I'm not robbing Megaman of his success or saying he's not worthy of his slot. He more than certainly is. It's just Ryu made a genre thrive and paved the way for Smash.

And Cloud and Final Fantasy 7 really brought JRPGs to a level that they weren't before. There are people who never touched a JRPG before just to see what all the fuss was about with Final Fantasy 7.

 

[Deleted member]

I think people are too fearful of cuts. I mean, I think we are getting around 0-2 cuts and that is it. Yes, there is a decent chance we might not get cuts. I think we will not get more than two cuts in my opinion.

From what @FlareHabanero mentioned yesterday, I think something to keep in mind is the lack of true firepower in terms of titles that came out during the Wii U era. If I have time today I'm going to take a look at what has come out since Smash Wii U came out/DLC ended and take a look at 1st party games. The Wii U was largely filled with Mario titles, whereas I think the 3DS has much more to use.

From what I'm already thinking about, I think there's absolutely a chance that the focus of this game is more current stuff. There's really nothing to prove it, but all I will say is that the two things we know are already in Smash are Inklings and BOTW Link. If I remember correctly, BOTW was the last 1st Party title Nintendo developed for Wii U, and if that's the game that connects the Wii U generation and the Switch generation, I think it's completely plausible that they're looking to the future. How far into the future? I can't say.

Like I said I'm going to take a look in a little bit.

Now that there is more firepower from the Switch, I think more interesting characters are also likely. I also think that we are guaranteed getting a Gen 7 Pokemon too.

 

[Chandeelure]

So how do you feel about this video's argument about Bandanna Dee's moveset potential:

I think it is biased and has wrong information.
Not even considering they don't know what a prosecutor and defense are lol.

The Gamexplain guys always were against the character during Smash 4's speculation period, except for Derrick.

Kirby fought BD in SSU, he was just a Waddle Dee skin with a lot of health at the moment, but it happened.

Waddle Dees not being a part of Dedede's moveset makes them not important? Hello?
What if they just wanted to make his moveset more balanced? less random? what if the 3DS couldn't handle the Waddle Dee army? (that's just speculation), but yeah, it has a lot of dumb arguments.

Bandana Dee not able to have a moveset without borrowing stuff from others like Parasol Dee?
Even when BD himself uses a Parasol in Battle Royale so he isn't borrowing anything? And there is nothing wrong with borrowing things?

I don't really understand.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I am a supporter of the idea that this Smash should not be trying to sell Wii U era games, but I think the argument that "nothing came out during that time" is not the way to go. As people have pointed out there is tons to pull from, as well as just the ballot or other important characters that haven't been added yet.

I just come from a business/marketing perspective that Smash sells games/series and that they should focus on more recent series that can be bought on the switch. Of course you can just say that Sakurai has never really worked this way in the past, but I just think that this game is going to be thought of differently. Also because so many switch ports exist you can pull from Wii U games and get roughly the same results so eh.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'm going to need some clarity on that. I have no clue what you're saying.

You claim that Sakurai has dismissed characters that weren't recurring "time and time again", claiming there is a pattern and conclude that the Champions will not be in Smash because of that.

However, there were only two instances where Sakurai could've dismissed one-offs: In Brawl, vis-a-vis Midna and in Smash 4 for any Skyward Sword character.

I claim that those two *possible* instances of Sakurai dismissing a character that has only appeared once, do not constitute a pattern.

I also give counter-evidence to your claim by saying that Ganondorf, the human form of Ganon, and Sheik only appeared once before being added to Melee and Toon Link, being based on his Wind Waker incarnation, who also appeared once, got in Brawl.

Thus, there is no pattern and possibly no precedent to Sakurai dismissing a Zelda character based on the fact he or she only appeared in a single game, which gives the Champions better credentials than you claim they have.

I think it's fair to say there's not a pattern, per se, but I do think we overlook the possibility of two Mario newcomers.

Paper Mario, Waluigi, Daisy, and even debatably Kamek as a Yoshi villain/Mario side villain make sense as potential inclusions.


Do you think Waluigi has any chance? He's absurdly popular with casual Nintendo fans, and could have been relatively high on the ballot.

Kamek also makes sense if we're looking at game releases. Wooly World, Yoshi and Poochy's 3DS version, New Island, and Mario releases like NSMBU make him an often-overlooked recurring character.

(Disclaimer: I don't think Kamek is likely, but I do think he deserves to be discussed as a possibility.)

I do think Waluigi has a chance.
However, with both Captain Toad and Paper Mario currently being one of the few characters who have a big, unrepresented game on the WiiU, while being popular and unique, I think they will both beat out Waluigi, who has no potential clone-status to save him (unlike Daisy) nor does he fall in a series' gray area (like Geno does)

I estimate Waluigi's chances at 15%, with Captain Toad and Paper Mario both having a 20% chance and Daisy having a 15% chance as well, but being easier to sneak in as a clone, so she could potentionally circumvent Captain Toad's and Paper Mario's resumes by getting in based on simplicity

Waluigi's and Daisy's relative lack of chance is not to be blamed on the characters themselves, but rather their competition having relevance, uniqueness and a potential ballot support on top

 

[osby]

So how do you feel about this video's argument about Bandanna Dee's moveset potential:

I'm not really fond of this "his moveset writes itself" thing. If he's going to do exact same things he does in another 2-D platformer, it's really doesn't sound so exciting to have him in Smash.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Bandanna Dee is love
Bandanna Dee is life
Bandanna Dee is spear
Bandanna Dee is COMING DAMMIT

 

[Pacack]

The reason I think it's worth looking into Switch titles is because of what Habanero was hinting at...Nintendo is quickly trying to forget the Wii U. The Switch is pretty big now, as are the titles on it.

Honestly, I think people overestimate how much of a factor this is.

When Brawl came out, the characters that were added were not Wii characters like Miis and Rosalina. Rather, characters were added from the relatively poorly selling Gamecube era ()

Sakurai had no reason to assume that the Wii would be such a success when he finalized the roster. Likewise, he couldn't have known that the Switch would sell so well.

Why assume that Sakurai would ignore the previous console generation when there's no precedence to assume so? Historically, Smash celebrates the games released between the last Smash roster's finalization and the next one's.

I just come from a business/marketing perspective that Smash sells games/series and that they should focus on more recent series that can be bought on the switch. Of course you can just say that Sakurai has never really worked this way in the past, but I just think that this game is going to be thought of differently. Also because so many switch ports exist you can pull from Wii U games and get roughly the same results so eh.

I'm not being sarcastic in any way when I ask this.

Why?

If you recognize that Sakurai has historically not used Smash as a marketing tool, why do you think he's going to start now? Is there something that leads you to that conclusion other than your personal background?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

When Brawl came out, the characters that were added were not Wii characters like Miis and Rosalina. Rather, characters were added from the relatively poorly selling Gamecube era ()

A big factor that people don't regard is that thanks to the ballot Sakurai already has a good selection of characters to use in order to appeal to the general fanbase.

First, thank you for the start of the list. I appreciate the head start.

Second, I don't really find it hypocritical. To me, it depends on the series and what the focus of the new Smash is going to be. By no means do I think Switch games NEED to be represented, but we're also comparing series like Zelda, which has a history of over 25 years now, to two newer series with far less content that are clear examples of new IP flourishing on the Switch. There's a distinction there. You could make the argument that BOTW is an example of Zelda flourishing on the Switch, and I would agree.

Not to mention, adding one of the Champions (basically, the Midna, Zant, Ghirahim of BOTW) isn't necessarily the same as adding a main character of XC2 or ARMS. To me that's not the same thing.

The reason I think it's worth looking into Switch titles is because of what Habanero was hinting at...Nintendo is quickly trying to forget the Wii U. The Switch is pretty big now, as are the titles on it.

You're right. Adding in one of the Champions would probably appeal to a wider audience than Rex and Spring Man would. And whilst not adding in Spring Man would mean no playable representation of an important new IP, Xenoblade would still have a playable character regardless. And since the biggest argument I have commonly seen for supporting the idea of a Switch-era character is appealing to a new audience, I just wanted to note this difference.

Regardless, all of these characters are equally "unneeded" with the biggest difference being that BoTW is just that much more bigger and important to Nintendo than ARMS or XC2 (with the Champions even being given their own amiibos and DLC revolving around them).

And if Nintendo was truly trying to forget the Wii U, why is there so many Wii U ports for Switch?

 

[Chandeelure]

I'm not really fond of this "his moveset writes itself" thing. If he's going to do exact same things he does in another 2-D platformer, it's really doesn't sound so exciting to have him in Smash.

And it's not even true, the only Special Moves that write themselves are Waddlecopter and Spear Throw.
All the other attacks are more suited for Tilts, Smashes or Aerials.

So, Sakurai would have to think about more unique and fun stuff, like Parasol, Elements from Star Allies, using Kirby items, summon other Waddle Dees?, like the possibilities are endless if you have a little of imagination.

Sakurai made Pac-Man throw Fire Hydrants, like, yeah, that happened.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

WiiU era might be a commercial flop but that doesn't stop the characters from being great fits.

Captain Toad, Paper Mario, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Chorus Kids, Alola Pokémon, BoTW character possibly, Style Savvy as the WTF character, Elma or Cross, Celica etc are all good choices.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

WiiU era might be a commercial flop but that doesn't stop the characters from being great fits.

Captain Toad, Paper Mario, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Chorus Kids, Alola Pokémon, BoTW character possibly, Style Savvy as the WTF character, Elma or Cross, Celica etc are all good choices.

So how would the Savvy Stylist work? I'm interested to see how.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

So how would the Savvy Stylist work? I'm interested to see how.

I dunno really.
@DustyPumpkin does though, so I'm summoning him to convince you of the power of style or whatever

Also look up the thread maybe

 

[Tree Gelbman]

So how would the Savvy Stylist work? I'm interested to see how.

So fierce she kills people with just one look at her in her head to toe fashion. They all just go flying off the stage.

So you know basically think putting someone like Zendaya in Smash Brothers.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I am a supporter of the idea that this Smash should not be trying to sell Wii U era games, but I think the argument that "nothing came out during that time" is not the way to go. As people have pointed out there is tons to pull from, as well as just the ballot or other important characters that haven't been added yet.

I just come from a business/marketing perspective that Smash sells games/series and that they should focus on more recent series that can be bought on the switch. Of course you can just say that Sakurai has never really worked this way in the past, but I just think that this game is going to be thought of differently. Also because so many switch ports exist you can pull from Wii U games and get roughly the same results so eh.

To be fair, I never said "nothing came out during that time", so I'm not entirely sure where you got that quote from.

My point isn't so much that they won't look at Wii U stuff, I'm sure they will on the contrary. I simply believe that Nintendo, as a company, would want to shift the focus of Smash on successes or get on the hype train of the Switch.

Given the fact that Sakurai is NOT a Nintendo employee, I can totally see Kimishima suggesting that he look at SOME content making it to the Switch. Again, but no means do I believe nothing from the Wii U will be in the game. From my recollection, however, a lot of the titles would simply support similar series.

For example, from those lists that other users are sharing, I immediately consider Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Elma, and Bandanna Dee. We already have Inklings, so it's a given that Wii U games are going to get characters, stages, etc.

My argument is simply that I think early Switch titles could get playable characters as well.

Honestly, I think people overestimate how much of a factor this is.

When Brawl came out, the characters that were added were not Wii characters like Miis and Rosalina. Rather, characters were added from the relatively poorly selling Gamecube era ()

Sakurai had no reason to assume that the Wii would be such a success when he finalized the roster. Likewise, he couldn't have known that the Switch would sell so well.

Why assume that Sakurai would ignore the previous console generation when there's no precedence to assume so? Historically, Smash celebrates the games released between the last Smash roster's finalization and the next one's.

I've gone over numerous times in the past why I think it could be different this time. Not only did this game start development after the previous title, but it was developed during a pivotal time in Nintendo's business strategy/their future.

I firmly believe that Kimishima discussed with Sakurai the opportunity to create another Smash game to propel the upcoming console even further, especially considering the power of Smash. Contrary to popular belief, Sakurai is NOT a Nintendo employee, so the idea that Kimishima would chat with him about the new game isn't entirely out of the question.

The Wii U, the console generation in its entirety, has been a low point for Nintendo. It's close to the Virtual Boy in terms of success. Or lack thereof rather.

I'm also not saying he would ignore the entire generation. There were some gems there. But I'm not sure it's enough for a completely compelling group of newcomers.

A big factor that people don't regard is that thanks to the ballot Sakurai already has a good selection of characters to use in order to appeal to the general fanbase.



You're right. Adding in one of the Champions would probably appeal to a wider audience than Rex and Spring Man would. And whilst not adding in Spring Man would mean no playable representation of an important new IP, Xenoblade would still have a playable character regardless. And since the biggest argument I have commonly seen for supporting the idea of a Switch-era character is appealing to a new audience, I just wanted to note this difference.

Regardless, all of these characters are equally "unneeded" with the biggest difference being that BoTW is just that much more bigger and important to Nintendo than ARMS or XC2 (with the Champions even being given their own amiibos and DLC revolving around them).

And if Nintendo was truly trying to forget the Wii U, why is there so many Wii U ports for Switch?

I could be reading this wrong, but i'm detecting a wee bit of aggression, and I'm not really sure why?

Porting games from the Wii U is not to "remember the Wii U". It's to bring their top titles that, frankly, a large group of potential customers never played because they didn't play the Wii U. That strategy has worked. They're not stupid enough to "forget the Wii U" by not capitalizing on an opportunity to make money.

I also think it's obvious that anything Zelda will by default be larger than a newer IP. That's obvious. If we base everything on that, however, we'd be getting characters from the same series in every Smash title. I think new IPs and the growth of an existing IPs are equally important, but in different ways. To assume BOTW is way more important than putting out new games for other series seems a bit like a leap. Did it perform better? Yes. It's a brand new, open world Zelda. Of course it would perform better than a JRPG sequel (that became the best selling in its series) and a new fighting IP. How that translates to Smash, however, may not reflect that.

In terms of Xenoblade, I don't think it's that simple. Elma could get added, and I'm sure she'll be loads of fun. However, given the time of roster selection, Monolith had been working on XC2 for at least a year or more. The game was scheduled for 2017, and if Sakurai was looking for a newcomer from the series, he WOULD have the option between the two. Just because he could just add Elma doesn't mean that that's what he would go with.

Lastly, if we're talking about amiibo as indicators of likelihood, then I guess Tiki, Chrom, Toon Zelda, Chibi-Robo, Daisy, Waluigi, Boo, Alm, Celica, and a crap ton of Animal Crossing characters have a chance. To me, that doesn't mean much.

 

[Pacack]

So fierce she kills people with just one look at her in her head to toe fashion. They all just go flying off the stage.

So you know basically think putting someone like Zendaya in Smash Brothers.

So you're saying she would slay them?

I love it ~ ♡

 

[IntelliHeath1]

My comment on Twitter for this day:
We're training ourselves to become better fighters to endure a lot of nonsense with Smash Speculation. #SmashBros #SmashBrosSwitch #E32018

 

[Diddy Kong]

Don't think BotW "needs" a character, but it definitely "deserves" a character, at least when you compare what it accomplished to everything else that happened to Zelda since OoT.

I'll admit, seeing TP not get a newcomer was admittingly a little shocking to me, but in retrospect, I suppose it shouldn't have been. It underperformed in Japan and wasn't too different from the series' norm. Plus, Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf all appeared in that game, so a simple redesign of the entire cast in addition to Toon Link might have felt like enough Zelda content for Sakurai. SS not getting a newcomer was by no means surprising. The game got mixed reviews, had OK sales, and wasn't anything too different from what Zelda games normally played like. Once I saw that Zelda kept her TP design, I knew SS was getting shafted in Smash 4.

BotW is in a whole different ballpark. I know I keep repeating this, but I can't stress it enough. This game was one of Nintendo's biggest wins in several years, and I truly believe that Sakurai will want to do more this time than just reworking the old Melee characters and adding a few new ATs.

The bolded part is where it still hurts in my soul </3

Impa in Smash 4 really would've been a great thing, even if she'd be a full blown last minute Sheik clone. I still think she was at least considered, but Skyward Sword Impa greatly clashed in design with the Twilight Princess cast unfortunately. Plus, Skyward Sword Impa is taller, lankier and thinner than Sheik, so that would make thing more difficult than with the other clones who share just about the exact same body types.

I also don't think BotW deserves a newcomer perse, but it's probably the biggest possibility of a Zelda newcomer since a while. I was pretty sure that Midna was getting into Brawl before as well, but was 100% satisfied with Toon Link. But now we basically have the exact same Zelda roster for 3 games, with only a slight revamp during Brawl.

Tho, with Hyrule Warriors, I think we could get a nice surprise. I think that game is heavily underrated in terms of how it might affect a newcomer from the Zelda franchise. It's the first ever proper Zelda game with characters playable that aren't Link, before, that was only Smash Bros.

Of course am also wishful thinking because I want Impa, but I still think the impact of Hyrule Warriors is huge enough to consider a newcomer based on it, or at least have Ganondorf, Zelda and maybe Sheik and Toon Link getting segments from their movesets tweaked to fit this new appearance.

I'll help you with making a list of notable 3DS/Wii U titles.

· Splatoon (confirmed)
· Star Fox (Zero and Guard)
· Miitopia
· Captain Toad
· Rhythm Heaven Megamix
· Pokémon Sun/Moon
· Codename STEAM
· Chibi Robo Zip Lash
· Xenoblade Chronicles X
· Paper Mario Color Splash
· Kirby Triple Deluxe
· Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
· Legend of Zelda A Link Between Worlds
· Triforce Heroes
· Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze
· Super Mario 3D World
· The Wonderful 101
· Kirby: Planet Robobot
· Style Savvy: Fashion Forward
· Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
· Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam
· Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire
· Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia (was meant to be released in 2016 before being delayed)
· NintendoLand
· Wii Party U

Also add Hyrule Warriors bro, the game has been ported twice now. And it's succes has lead to the creation of Fire Emblem Warriors. The DLC of Hyrule Warriors also sold like hotcakes, and it was overall a very ambitious project. I think it definitely deserves to be mentoined up in here, because I am 100% sure it did financially better than 50% of the other tiles you mentoined.

 

[Garteam]

So how do you feel about this video's argument about Bandanna Dee's moveset potential:

First off, I'm confused as to why a prosecutor is in a civil court

I agree with Derrick, Bandana Dee naturally lends himself to a Smash moveset because of the similarities between Kirby's control scheme and Smash. The spear is the most used weapon in history, every ancient civilization had some spear fighters in their ranks, so there's a ton of real world inspiration for Sakurai to draw upon should he need to venture outside Kirby for inspiration.

I also don't understand the counter argument, Bandana Waddle Dee doesn't have moveset potential without including the parasol? Derrick never said "Bandana Dee needs the parasol", he simply threw it out as an option. Additionally, I don't agree with the idea that the parasol would blur the lines between Bandana and other waddle dees. He's used the parasol in Kirby Battle Royale before, and there wasn't any confusion over the character's identity there. The whole "parasol' argument is like saying "Ike can't be in Super Smash Bros without an axe otherwise he has no moveset potential". His primary weapon has enough potential to create a moveset alone and his sub weapon is something he's used in his home series before.

 

[Arcadenik]

I am a supporter of the idea that this Smash should not be trying to sell Wii U era games, but I think the argument that "nothing came out during that time" is not the way to go. As people have pointed out there is tons to pull from, as well as just the ballot or other important characters that haven't been added yet.

I just come from a business/marketing perspective that Smash sells games/series and that they should focus on more recent series that can be bought on the switch. Of course you can just say that Sakurai has never really worked this way in the past, but I just think that this game is going to be thought of differently. Also because so many switch ports exist you can pull from Wii U games and get roughly the same results so eh.

Haha. Smash Switch is going to sell Wii U era games considering many Switch games are ports of Wii U era games.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Also add Hyrule Warriors bro, the game has been ported twice now. And it's succes has lead to the creation of Fire Emblem Warriors. The DLC of Hyrule Warriors also sold like hotcakes, and it was overall a very ambitious project. I think it definitely deserves to be mentoined up in here, because I am 100% sure it did financially better than 50% of the other tiles you mentoined.

Good point.

 

[---]

Time and time again being Midna in Brawl (the game where Toon Link got in despite being very clearly based on the Wind Waker design alone) and a Skyward Sword character in Smash 4?
Because that's not exactly an actual pattern and a pretty poor basis to exclude a character from, especially since human Ganondorf, Sheik and Toon Link got in based on one game and Young Link got in based on two games.
It's bold at best and idiotic at worst to be this high and mighty about a roster decision based on an argument with more exception than rule to it

I agree that there's not a pattern yet, but I think it's subjective to say there are concrete exceptions just yet either.


If we're looking at Zelda newcomers, for the moment I'm throwing more money into the Hyrule Warriors (Impa/Lana) pot rather than the BotW Champion pot. So yes, for once I'm taking Diddy Kong 's side on Impa for once, for those of you who remember the 2011 thread.