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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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True Blue Warrior

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Question: If a veteran like Dr. Mario returned in Smash 4 despite being missing Brawl, would that character be considered for higher priority in Smash Switch for being a two-time veteran? Or is it a rather redundant question because Dr. Mario could still end up being cut due to being a clone? I would like answers mainly for my prediction roster.
Absolutely not. The doctor may be a two time veteran, but he was a character cut due to low priority in Brawl and, if he weren't such a easy last-minute addition in Smash 4, would have been the first Smash character who was demoted to an alt costume. Dr. Mario has never been a high-priority addition and the fact he was cut before due to low priority naturally means he's more likely to be cut due to the same reason in Smash Switch.

That being said, being a clone in of itself does not mean automatic low priority even if it is a significant disadvantage. Lucina is more of a clone than Doctor Mario yet she still is far more likely to return than him.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Absolutely not. The doctor may be a two time veteran, but he was a character cut due to low priority in Brawl and, if he weren't such a easy last-minute addition in Smash 4, would have been the first Smash character who was demoted to an alt costume. Dr. Mario has never been a high-priority addition and the fact he was cut before due to low priority naturally means he's more likely to be cut due to the same reason in Smash Switch.

That being said, being a clone in of itself does not mean automatic low priority even if it is a significant disadvantage. Lucina is more of a clone than Doctor Mario yet she still is far more likely to return than him.
Actually, him being a vet that played differently from Mario is also why he became his own character, along with because of his fanbase. Being a vet played a role too. He may be cut, but it's clear he won't be an alt at any point in the official games as long as Sakurai is at the helm.
 

True Blue Warrior

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Actually, him being a vet that played differently from Mario is also why he became his own character, along with because of his fanbase. Being a vet played a role too. He may be cut, but it's clear he won't be an alt at any point in the official games as long as Sakurai is at the helm.
More people would have been upset by him being an alt than by him not being in the game at all in playable capacity.

Besides, if it weren't for :4drmario::4lucina::4darkpit:, people would still complain about :4tlink: being the "Cloniest clone that ever cloned".:p
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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More people would have been upset by him being an alt than by him not being in the game at all in playable capacity.

Besides, if it weren't for :4drmario::4lucina::4darkpit:, people would still complain about :4tlink: being the "Cloniest clone that ever cloned".:p
People still complain about Toon Link, so...

Clones get complaints all the time. It's just a thing that happens, really.

Doesn't change that him having vet status is part of why he didn't stay an alt. If he wasn't a vet in Melee, he wouldn't have had the unique fanbase to begin with.
 

FlareHabanero

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The whole clone thing is a double edge sword.

It means the characters are easy to develop for, but on the flipside means they're not much of a priority either. So while people can dismiss them all they want, it doesn't change the fact that they're a quick and easy way to add more characters. I think the bigger issue is when said clones contradict statements made or contribute to possible bias. It's why I personally have such a huge beef with Lucina in particular.
 

osby

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The whole clone thing is a double edge sword.

It means the characters are easy to develop for, but on the flipside means they're not much of a priority either. So while people can dismiss them all they want, it doesn't change the fact that they're a quick and easy way to add more characters. I think the bigger issue is when said clones contradict statements made or contribute to possible bias. It's why I personally have such a huge beef with Lucina in particular.
How does Lucina contributes or contradicts anything?
 

Cosmic77

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I'm low-key mad that all three of the Melee veterans we clamored for are never used online. Seriously, Dr. Mario is basically extinct, Mewtwo is a character people want to be good with but never get the hang of, and most people ditched Roy and went back to Marth and Lucina once the general consensus was "Yeah, this character isn't as good as we initially thought."

At least Mewtwo is popular in competitive play.

Question: If a veteran like Dr. Mario returned in Smash 4 despite being missing Brawl, would that character be considered for higher priority in Smash Switch for being a two-time veteran? Or is it a rather redundant question because Dr. Mario could still end up being cut due to being a clone? I would like answers mainly for my prediction roster.
I know a few people freak out whenever I use the words "clones" and "low-priority" together in the same sentence, but based off Smash's past history, it seems like clones don't have the best reputation for returning, despite being the easiest to program.

Melee introduced six clones to the roster. Out of those six, only Falco and Ganondorf returned for Brawl.

Brawl introduced three clones to the roster. Toon Link was the only one to not get cut in development for Smash 4. Lucas did end up returning through DLC, but he wasn't originally planned to be in the game.


So to answer your question, I'm not sure. Clones who have appeared in two or more Smash games seem to have cemented themselves on the roster, but Dr. Mario is truly a weird case. While he has made two appearances in Smash, he's been cut before, showing us that he is indeed a lower priority when compared to other clones.

Personally, I feel like Dr. Mario's chances are so-so. Compared to the rest of the Mario cast, he sticks out like a sore thumb. He's rarely used over Mario and Luigi, and he seems like one of the less popular clones on the roster. However, he does have the advantage of being a veteran. While he's definitely not on the same level as Mewtwo, I think his history in Smash might be one reason why someone could argue why the Doc is more likely to return than Lucina or Dark Pit.
 

Jubileus57

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Can we switch to a new poll question since it's confirmed that this is in fact a new game. Something like how many newcomers you expect to be revealed at E3.

Source: https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2018/180427_2e.pdf
I love how Bayonetta 2 is referred as a ''Nintendo title'' on par with Kirby. Not 3rd party. Not "funded by". Just "Nintendo title''.

Maybe people will stop saying that she isn't iconic enough of a 3rd party to be deserve her spot. She is more relevant to Nintendo than any other one.
 

Lyndis_

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It's weird how differently Smash categorizes clones compared to other series. In Street Fighter, MK, or MvC Lucas, Luigi, Wolf, etc; would just be called clones without having to argue the semantics of a character that's heavily based off another character's moves and animations.

It's just weird and I don't think I've ever gotten used to it in all the years I've played Smash, lol.
 

True Blue Warrior

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:toonlink::wolf::lucas:

Again, a semi-clone is still a type of clone.
5 moves does not constitute any type of clones. neither Wolf or Lucas are clones and comparing them to Toon Link, the closest thing Brawl had to a Melee-style clone newcomer is at best disingenuous and at worst grasping at straws to defend the ridiculous fan mantra that "veteran clones are typically low priority" which was only true in Brawl.

It's weird how differently Smash categorizes clones compared to other series. In Street Fighter, MK, or MvC Lucas, Luigi, Wolf, etc; would just be called clones without having to argue the semantics of a character that's heavily based off another character's moves and animations.

It's just weird and I don't think I've ever gotten used to it in all the years I've played Smash, lol.
I can't speak for the other franchises, but I know tons of people who would debate Ken even being a clone of Ryu. Try to argue that Sakurai or Gouken are clones of Ryu (since they are basically the Lucas and Wolf of SF in terms of uniqueness) and tons of SF fans would at best criticize you and at worst flame you, calling you a "noob", a "scrub" and a "casual". Trust me, as someone who has been around the SF fanbase for a long time, this is absolutely true.
 
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osby

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I don't think comparing different kinds of clones really does mean much in Smash.

In Melee, you can say Pichu and Young Link didn't return because they were clones, but it was probably because they were not that popular. Doctor Mario and Roy had given pretty much same priority with Mewtwo.

In Brawl, Lucas had more priority than not just Wolf, but also Squirtle and Ivysaur. Toon Link had no problem.

I'm not saying moveset oiriginality doesn't matter, but character's own popularity might be the deciding factor here.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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I don't think comparing different kinds of clones really does mean much in Smash.

In Melee, you can say Pichu and Young Link didn't return because they were clones, but it was probably because they were not that popular. Doctor Mario and Roy had given pretty much same priority with Mewtwo.

In Brawl, Lucas had more priority than not just Wolf, but also Squirtle and Ivysaur. Toon Link had no problem.

I'm not saying moveset oiriginality doesn't matter, but character's own popularity might be the deciding factor here.
The only reason why people argue semantics over what is and what isn't a clone is that some peopkle genuinely believe that Sakurai would have cared about the handful of moves Lucas and Wolf shares with Ness and Fox respectively and have them low priority for that reason, despite how dumb and petty it sounds when you basically boil down the "Wolf/Lucas got low priority because they are clones" argument, especially when you have Toon Link of all characters being a high priority returning character.

That being said, I'll make a very controversial statement and say that not only is Lucina one of the most likely characters (that are being speculated as a likely cut for Smash) to return, but also that she is more likely to return than Roy and even Corrin.
 
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viewtifulduck82

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I dunno guys. A lot of people have dark pit pinned to be cut, but do you guys really think sakurai is gonna let his baby die like that?

I'm super confident he's making it back as a semi clone, and I personally can't wait. I also wouldn't be surprised if KI gets a 4th rep before kirby.
 

BinWeevil28

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Clones:

  • Luigi
  • Lucas
  • Toon Link
  • Falco
  • Wolf
  • Roy
  • Dr Mario
  • Dark Pit
  • Lucina
  • Ganondorf (debatable now thanks to many changes)
  • Pichu
Hmm. I consider Wolf a clone of Fox because his main weapons and style are close to Fox's than any other fighter.
 
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osby

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I'm saying this as a person who has zero problems about Dark Pit and Palutena in Smash For: Regardless of how important and/or unique a potential Kid Icarus newcomer is, I wouldn't want them. They would make Corrin well-received in comparison.
 

viewtifulduck82

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I'm saying this as a person who has zero problems about Dark Pit and Palutena in Smash For: Regardless of how important and/or unique a potential Kid Icarus newcomer is, I wouldn't want them. They would make Corrin well-received in comparison.
So you think a character's merit is decided by what universe they're repping? I seriously doubt that's how sakurai is grabbing characters. It doesn't matter if we think a series is "over repped", if it's something he wants that's what we get. He also probably has a soft spot for his own characters.
 

Megadoomer

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So you think a character's merit is decided by what universe they're repping? I seriously doubt that's how sakurai is grabbing characters. It doesn't matter if we think a series is "over repped", if it's something he wants that's what we get. He also probably has a soft spot for his own characters.
I feel like there generally comes a point where a series has too many characters relative to its size and/or noteworthiness. Sakurai might want to add three new Fire Emblem characters, for example, but most people would agree that it would be too many characters at once for a series, not to mention WAY too many Fire Emblem characters. Even if something like that was done for Donkey Kong, it would be questioned.

Having four or five characters for a series with three games just seems excessive. It's not just Kid Icarus; if Smash 5 has Shulk, the seventh party member from Xenoblade 1, Elma, and Rex/Pyra, people would definitely find it weird, even though the Xenoblade series has been well-received.
 
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MrReyes96

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I'm saying this as a person who has zero problems about Dark Pit and Palutena in Smash For: Regardless of how important and/or unique a potential Kid Icarus newcomer is, I wouldn't want them. They would make Corrin well-received in comparison.
I love how Corrin plays so I scoff at every person complaining
I would love if Sakurai added one kid Icarus newcomer
Even more so if he added 2 or 3
I don’t care if people complain I think fire emblem is well represented as well
 

osby

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So you think a character's merit is decided by what universe they're repping? I seriously doubt that's how sakurai is grabbing characters. It doesn't matter if we think a series is "over repped", if it's something he wants that's what we get. He also probably has a soft spot for his own characters.
Rather than universe, I think he considers games. Even though in Pokemon, first generation makes up the bulk of the playable characters, it's different in other franchises:

-Rosalina and Bowser Jr. start in two different yet important games.
-Legend of Zelda characters comes from three games and have references to others.
-Fire Emblem characters cames from five different games.

There is always a possibility that we'll get a new Kid Icarus character, but it would feature their Uprising form, which while a pretty good game, also one game and a franchise that have only three games and have characters for each of them might... well, it gave whatever it can.
 

Cosmic77

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I dunno guys. A lot of people have dark pit pinned to be cut, but do you guys really think sakurai is gonna let his baby die like that?

I'm super confident he's making it back as a semi clone, and I personally can't wait. I also wouldn't be surprised if KI gets a 4th rep before kirby.
The only problem with the "make Lucina and Dark Pit a semi-clone" argument is that it completely cancels out the idea that them being full clones makes them extremely easy to bring back (not to mention the fact that changing Lucina completely ruins her original purpose of being a "Marth for beginners").

I still say it's full clone or nothing for them.

I'm saying this as a person who has zero problems about Dark Pit and Palutena in Smash For: Regardless of how important and/or unique a potential Kid Icarus newcomer is, I wouldn't want them. They would make Corrin well-received in comparison.
Literally every time someone makes a comment like this, someone defends Sakurai and says something along the lines of, "But Sakurai doesn't care about series representation! It's all about being unique!" Probably going to get bashed for saying this, but I strongly disagree.

Look, I'm not denying that a new KI character wouldn't be unique, but there's a reason why so many people complained about FE and KI (despite KI only having one character originally planned) being over-represented in Smash 4. FE and KI are not the only franchises that wield unique characters. Yes, Palutena, Robin, and Corrin ended up being very different characters in their own rights, but defending the number of characters in these franchises because "Sakurai only looks at unique characters" is basically suggesting that the dozens of other Nintendo franchises don't have anything better.

Maybe the number of characters a series has doesn't matter at all, but you can't tell me that FE got the number of characters it has today because of Sakurai seeing unique movesets when exactly half of the six FE characters currently on the roster share the same vanilla swordfighter moveset - a moveset that you could literally pass off to ANY character with a sword and make it work.

Long story short, there are dozens of unique characters Sakurai could choose, and I don't think KI has earned one this time around.
 
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Freduardo

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I'm saying this as a person who has zero problems about Dark Pit and Palutena in Smash For: Regardless of how important and/or unique a potential Kid Icarus newcomer is, I wouldn't want them. They would make Corrin well-received in comparison.
I don’t know, you get me a new uprising game (or even a port of the old one on Switch with new control options and some extras) on switch, and I am going to be all about a new kid Icarus character.

I mean, seriously, Magnus’ assist trophy is like two moves away from a moveset.
 
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Opossum

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Didn't know where to post this so I figured I'd post it here. There was an interesting question I asked myself just a little bit ago, "What languages does each character speak?"

Though this works well as a general Nintendo game question, it's interesting for Smash because if these characters ever met and tried to converse, how many of them would actually understand each other?

So, I thought I'd go by each series and do my best to determine which language each character/series speaks. (Note, this only considers the characters that actually do talk.)

:4mario: series speaks English. Every character is shown to speak English on many occasions, and this applies to all real-world regional versions of the games.

:4wario2:is heavily implied to speak English because it shares the same language as the Mario series.

:4dk: series characters speak animal, with occasional uses of English by several characters. (How the crap do they do that? Perhaps its more impressive that the Mario characters can UNDERSTAND animal?)

:4zelda: series has been confirmed to speak both modern and ancient variants of the fictional Hylian language.

:4yoshi: speaks Yoshi.

:4kirby: series is too hard to pin down. Could be a fictional language, but there's no indication either way.

:4pit: series most likely speaks a variant of Greek.

:4littlemac: speaks English. He's a boxer from New York, so it's no big surprise.

:4olimar: series speaks an unnamed fictional language, and has been demonstrated so.

:4ness: series most likely speaks English, as the series is known to be a large cultural reference to America in general. Both Ness and Lucas pronounce all of their PK abilities in English as well.

:4falcon: series probably has several different languages strewn about. However, Captain Douglas Jay Falcon ABSOLUTELY speaks English. HYES!

:4fox: series most likely speaks EBEBEBEBEBEB. Joking aside, Star Fox Adventures is only dubbed in English, therefore the language at that point is implied to be English. This isn't confirmed fact, but a high likelihood. Also, the terms and names used throughout the series are pronounced in English.

:4sonic: series most LIKELY speaks English. The Adventure series and Shadow the Hedgehog imply a US-styled country that would most likely speak English. Has also crossed over with Mario, whom speaks English. Even in the Japanese dubs, Sonic enjoys using English phrases.

:4megaman: series might also be English. His Japanese name is even pronounced in English (Rockman). His maker is Dr. Thomas Light. That's a very western name, implying a western language. (Also had a crossover comic series with Sonic, whom I also believe speaks English.)

:4cloud: likely speaks English, since a lot of English terminology is written all over FF7. Japanese plays aren't very likely to be named "Loveless." (If Kingdom Hearts were to be included in the language department, I'd have to write an essay about all the languages that have to be accounted for because of many cultures of the various Disney worlds used.)

:4wiifit: is hard to determine a language for. However, might be English due to "Wii Fit" being a rather English phrase. Cannot be certain towards any language, really.

:4samus: series likely speaks English, among other alien dialects. Fusion and Other M displayed the existence of characters with western names such as Adam Malkovich and Anthony Higgs. Also, Zero Suit Samus speaks English in all versions of the Smash Bros she's in.

:4villager: speaks Animalese. Fact.

:4pacman: speaks WAKAWAKAWAKAWAKA. Otherwise, literally any other language is possible.

:4bayonetta: speaks English, but also knows and occasionally speaks Japanese.

:4ryu: speaks Japanese, and most likely knows English. May potentially know a few other languages, but Japanese for certain.

:snake: has been confirmed to speak English, but knows six languages in total. Among these are probably Russian, French, Japanese, Yupik, and possibly Arabic.

:4pikachu: this is where it starts getting difficult. Pokemon make sounds. These sounds were interpreted as the names of each creature. Therefore each Pokemon only speaks their own name. However, :4mewtwo: and :4lucario: do in fact speak human languages in Smash. Therefore, I had to actually put significant thought into it. Either the Pokemon world has a different language for each region (the region's being based off of real-world regions with their own languages), or more likely the Pokemon world has one giant shared language that is known across all regions.
It's too difficult either way, especially since most Pokemon have their names changed depending on the real-world region of the version purchased.

:4marth: series is really confusing on their languages. In their crossovers, it's implied that they all speak the same tongue. This might be true over the entire series regardless of crossover. Fates implies the same language as Awakening, which is most likely the same language as what Marth spoke. However, Fates and Awakening both tie Ike into the same language as well. However, there is a largely Norse emphasis throughout the series. Some Greek and Hebrew here and there, but Norse has had a large part in many names of tomes, weapons, and such. Therefore, the most likely language might be Scandinavian, or any of its dialects.

:4shulk: series speaks... well, oh boy. Xenoblade Chronicles 1,2, & X are all implied to be connected in very spoiler-y ways. But since X's major focal point is New Los Angeles, I will defer to English for now. I'd rather not have to dive too far into this rabbit hole, otherwise I'll get sucked into the proverbial void.

And that, I think, covers all the known languages in Smash. Many of these characters speak English... which is odd for a bunch of Japanese created characters.

But if you have any corrections about this, please say so!
For the record, with Pokémon, it's basically confirmed that the spoken language depends on the region. This is shown through the character Looker, a member of the International Police. Depending on the game he's in, he speaks in a varied degree of broken English. In the Unova and Sinnoh games he's fairly broken, but speaks fluently in Kalos. As well, in X and Y's post game, a woman from Kanto asks him for help and her text is shown in Japanese, and Looker can't understand her.

All of this implies that the spoken language of a region depends on the real world area it was based on. So Kanto/Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh would all be Japanese (perhaps with their own regional dialects), Unova would be mostly English, Kalos would would be French, and Alola would be a mix of English and Hawaiian.
 

MrReyes96

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I don’t know, you get me a new uprising game (or even a port of the old one on Switch with new control options and some extras) on switch, and I am going to be all about a new kid Icarus character.

I mean, seriously, Magnus’ assist trophy is like two moves away from a moveset.
If they waste a new kid Icarus newcomer on Magnus instead of the 3 possible gods i’ll cry
I’d even prefer phosphera
 

Geno Boost

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(Unless we did this hundreds of pages ago,) Let's play a game. The roster of playable Pokémon in Smash Bros. is completely reset with the exception of Pikachu, the series mascot. Your job is to put in a sole representative from each generation into Smash Bros. as a playable character. (Stuff like Plusle & Minun as a pairing is acceptable, but NO TRAINERS.) And please, no flame wars or anything over anyone else's picks.

I'll start:
Gen 1: Mewtwo
Gen 2: Scizor
Gen 3: Blaziken
Gen 4: Lucario
Gen 5: Zoroark
Gen 6: Greninja
Gen 7: Decidueye
Gen 1: Mewtwo
Gen 2: Suiciune
Gen 3: Grovyle (PMD)
Gen 4: Lucario
Gen 5: Zorark
Gen 6: Diancie
Gen 7: Tapu Koko
 

Kotor

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TL;DR I don't get the craze for a gen 8 Pokemon or an FE16 character and a simple question of what's more important in Smash to you: characters or gameplay?
Yeah, I'm baffled by this. Intelligent Systems announced a FE Switch title back in January 2017, and nothing has been said since. Maybe we'll finally get info on E3 since the game is still slated for 2018.
 

Opossum

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does it really? that's kinda ridiculous. ah well, carry on.
Yep, one of Brawl's "Defeat the Newcomers" event matches included him. Fairly certain the Brawl website listed him as one too. And he's always listed with the Brawl newcomers in the series lineups, like the promotional material for Smash 4.
 

92MilesPrower

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Toon Link was definitely a newcomer in Brawl, he's a completely different Link than Young Link (TL is from WW, PH, etc., YL is from OoT and MM), he's basically a spiritual successor. Just because Toon Link is younger than regular Link and has essentially the same moveset as Young Link doesn't mean he's basically Young Link with a different art style, name and voice.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Toon Link doesn't completely copy Young Link's normal attacks, as his u-smash only deals a single hit. Also, Toon Link doesn't have any leg-based attacks.
 

92MilesPrower

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If regular Link for some reason doesn't get his moveset changed up a lot to reflect BotW, what do you guys wanna see changed in Toon Link's moveset if he were to be changed instead? I think he could probably use the hammer and the elemental rods for some moves, for example.
 

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I still consider Toon Link a replacement for Young Link.

Yes, their moves are different, but they serve the same purpose in representation.

Sakurai said he added Young Link in Melee because a younger version of Link was a common thing in the Zelda series. Suddenly, Toon Link becomes a thing in Wind Waker, and Sakurai chooses to cut Young Link in Brawl and add Toon Link.

In adding Toon Link, Sakurai represented the new “Toon” design used in multiple games (Wind Waker, the Four Swords trilogy, and Phantom Hourglass at the time of Brawl), while also continuing to represent the trope of a young variation of Link appearing in some game.

I just don’t see the need to have both in the same game, unless they decide to give Young Link a Majora’s Mask inspired moveset and maybe call him Masked Link. Even then, with Majora as my favorite Zelda game, I don’t think they should have three variations of the literal same character.
 
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