Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MSmariosonic]

Wait so are we still on the ´believe the bundle art´ side or nah?

 

[JaidynReiman]

Wait so are we still on the ´believe the bundle art´ side or nah?

Mixed opinions. Personally I believe it. I don't necessarily know if its the final roster, but I think its pretty likely.

 

[osby]

Wait so are we still on the ´believe the bundle art´ side or nah?

On the one hand, it seems unlikely to be true, on the other hand, I don't want to be like "Shulk is photoshopped Little Mac!" people.

For now, I'll ignore it.

 

[ChronoBound]

Yeah, it would make sense if Geno wasn't in this game.

...Had Sakurai not listened to the fans more than any other Smash game, added in Ridley and King K. Rool, and so forth. If anything, not adding in Geno probably is gonna be the biggest controversial decision at the moment, even more so when you have the Holy Trinity left with just two. You can't end it more than halfway, you gotta go all in.

Geno's fanbase collapsed after Brawl. Isaac is a lot closer to the likes of Ridley and K. Rool than Geno (who only started to regain his pre-Brawl popularity after the Mii Fighter unveil and the Sakurai quote). Isaac by comparison managed to retain most of his fanbase after Brawl's release and stayed strong going into the ballot due to him not being in Smash 4 in any form (thus looking to be a DLC contender).

You are re-writing history if you think Geno was part of the "trinity". No. He never was. The trinity was Mega Man, Ridley, and K. Rool. All three of those characters were a cut above the rest in terms of requests. After Mega Man's confirmation, I would say the character who replaced Mega Man was either Mewtwo or Little Mac (depending on whether you could count a cut veteran among it or not).

I do think Geno would probably be the second Square-Enix character if one were to happen due to Sakurai expressing interest in the character (one of the few characters he has done so far).

 

[Zinith]

I'm a "I'll take the roster as is, but that box art doesn't represent the final product" person

 

[RawstyleEevee]

Wait so are we still on the ´believe the bundle art´ side or nah?

I'm more in the camp that its most likely legit. I feel there is not alot of time left anymore, before we know the full roster, and I'm getting flashbacks of FEW with its special edition. And minus the Square rep it lines up with Vergeben

 

[Door Key Pig]

I just hope people won't hype themselves for potential Isaac/Geno/Skull Kid (is this our new big three?) DLC. New characters and guests (that possibly not Banjo-Kazooie or Geno) are likely to dominate DLC.

Do you think there's characters whose only shot was being part of the base game, like certain echos and characters "no one would buy if they were DLC"? I really hope that isn't the case for a Rhythm Heaven representative.

 

[osby]

I'm a "I'll take the roster as is, but that box art doesn't represent the final product" person

Why? Is it because it has only one newcomer or because Yoshi isn't in it in all regions?

 

[Zinith]

Why? Is it because it has only one newcomer or because Yoshi isn't in it in all regions?

You talking about that German alteration of the front cover that removed Yoshi? That's different...

 

[JaidynReiman]

Do you think there's characters whose only shot was being part of the base game, like certain echos and characters "no one would buy if they were DLC"? I really hope that isn't the case for a Rhythm Heaven representative.

Personally I'm going to say:


I don't think we can say anything about DLC this time. I doubt DLC will play out the same way it did last time, where I can see a much larger variety of reveals. But I do think at the very least Rex/Pyra and ARMS representation take priority. Beyond that, I can see DLC extending longer than it did last time (bigger support base so more sales) and have a larger variety of characters, especially since they can't just bring back veterans.


Big thing I'm thinking is we might see a lot of Echo Fighter DLC to pad it out as well.

 

[osby]

Do you think there's characters whose only shot was being part of the base game, like certain echos and characters "no one would buy if they were DLC"? I really hope that isn't the case for a Rhythm Heaven representative.

Ngl, I think final roster will disappoint a lot of people. It always does. We simply don't have enough "slots" to include both pre-Brawl fan favourites and new franchises/characters together. Sakurai still needs to add Geno, Isaac, Bandana Dee etc. if he wants to keep the complaints minimum.

I don't think a lot of characters we talk about will make it in as DLC, and yes, that probably includes Rhythm Heaven character, too, unfortunately.

 

[pholtos]

The box is a photoshopped little mac.

 

[dezeray112]

Wait so are we still on the ´believe the bundle art´ side or nah?

Just woken up. Can anyone fill me in on what's with the boxart bundle?

 

[papagenos]

I'm a "I'll take the roster as is, but that box art doesn't represent the final product" person

thats where im at, and obviously im a huge geno fan and this "could" end his chances (at least for base roster) but i see how the box theory "works". However i also dont think the final roster count being found out this way is very likely at all... so while ive been happy with the roster since E3, and everything else has just been icing on the cake, i still feel like theres more than two more newcomers left.

People choosing to believe the final 2 should be "ken + incineroar" instead of "ken + geno" based on vergeben, when vergeben has BOTH "a gen 7 pokemon" and "a square rep" as part of his leak has me thinking people are just being pessimistic right now...sorry any incineroar fans i just feel like "incineroar and ken" are super "safe" low hype guesses right now so people are choosing to lower expectations to the maximum when geno and incineroar are basically equally "leaked" by vergeben.

man after the "gardevoir leak" and now this it really looks like i hate incineroar or something but i dont haha

 

[MSmariosonic]

Hey

Incineroar will be fighter #69

So he's at least got that going for him

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Ngl, I think final roster will disappoint a lot of people. It always does. We simply don't have enough "slots" to include both pre-Brawl fan favourites and new franchises/characters together. Sakurai still needs to add Geno, Isaac, Bandana Dee etc. if he wants to keep the complaints minimum.

Ok, hands up if you're disappointed in the roster. And if so, why? I think there will be FAR fewer this game than it ever has been.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Just woken up. Can anyone fill me in on what's with the boxart bundle?

Here ya go

 

[MSmariosonic]

Just woken up. Can anyone fill me in on what's with the boxart bundle?

I'm just going to link this twitter chain

It should explain itself

https://twitter.com/ConnorEatsPants/status/1040744991176486912

 

[Curious Villager]

If I where to take a gander, I'd think we may have at least two unique newcomers left and maybe four echo's. Though that's mainly a hunch due to the fact that Sakurai seems to love his numbers lately ever since the DLC of Smash 4 and I can see him commenting on how we have a total of 70 unique characters and 80 if echo's are counted.

Which does make me wonder if that's the case, if he would try to reach 100 with DLC with like 10 unique and 10 echo's but I guess that remains to be seen. At least there isn't a second version this time to take up dev time.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I'm just going to link this twitter chain

It should explain itself

https://twitter.com/ConnorEatsPants/status/1040744991176486912

I really hate that tweet in all honesty. He's completely overreacting. "DURR THERE'S EXACTLY ONLY TWO CHARACTERS LEFT AND THAT'S IT!"


Look, this CAN mean that, but the simple fact is there's a ton of factors we don't know. Especially why Isabelle isn't on here when there's no reason for her to be missing. They showed this after Isabelle was announced, after all.


The main thing we can say for sure is we're probably getting at least Ken and one more unique fighter. It could mean that's the end, but there's no enough information to say anything beyond that.


Anyway that's all I have to say. That sums up the situation, despite his idiotic overreaction.

 

[Jetsurge]

After Isabelle I still think Isaac, Banjo and Geno will be in. Sakurai said he used the ballot to choose the roster of course not all characters in are from there but he's definitely going to add more ballot picks than K. Rool. I think Isaac is in because after seeing Krystal and Shovel Knight Isaac's assist probably would be back by now if he wasn't in and there was that tweet by Sakurai. For Banjo I think he's in because he did well in the ballot (was number 1 on Smash reddit), Vergeben has leaked Minecraft content and he would be the big final newcomer to get people excited. And finally for Geno he had the mii costume which had a splash banner when it was revealed, has a huge following in the smash fanbase and Vergeben leaked another Square rep.

For the other newcomer I think we'll get Incineroar which will bring up the roster to a nice total of 72. For echos like what happened with Alolan forms in Pokemon Sun and Moon I think people are really overestimating how many we'll get. I think there will be only 3 more Felix, Ken and Shadow.

 

[dezeray112]

Ramen Tengoku & MSmariosonic - Thanks.

That's very interesting indeed and even though it is still hard to say at this moment, if there are two characters remain and Vergeben's info is accurate, then I'd assume that it is likely to be Ken Masters (hinted by Vergeben) and a Gen 7 Pokemon which is is likely to be Inceniroar.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Let's say if it were true

It would be weird if Nintendo just outright spoiled the amount of newcomers that's left to be revealed through this bundle, right?

 

[Door Key Pig]

Let's say if it were true

It would be weird if Nintendo just outright spoiled the amount of newcomers that's left to be revealed through this bundle, right?

If you're correct on Nintendo being the ones to share the bundle image? Yeah.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Let's say if it were true

It would be weird if Nintendo just outright spoiled the amount of newcomers that's left to be revealed through this bundle, right?

Didn’t stop them with FE Warriors, where they not only spoiled the amount, but the specific characters themselves.

 

[Jetsurge]

Didn’t stop them with FE Warriors, where they not only spoiled the amount, but the specific characters themselves.

FE is niche though. No one really cares if that gets leaked. Smash is huge and they are being more secretive than ever this time.

 

[11th]

Roster implications aside... am I the only one just bothered by how they chose to organize the characters on that preview? It would be one thing if it were completely random order, but it's a clear pattern. There has been an emphasis on the order that the characters joined Smash, and then someone decided that nine was a nice number to break up the roster into. You know, one of those numbers that isn't divisible by six.

Six would have been so nice because it would have wrapped around the box perfectly, but if they were intent on keeping the original eight together, then they may as well have done twelve. (Though twelve would have bumped Jiggypuff to the other side thanks to Dark Samus -- sorry Jiggs.)


Regarding the rest:
-shrugs-
We'll see. It's not going to impact my view of the game or the characters I support (which admittedly isn't many, and I had accepted that they might not have a chance long ago), though seeing people complain about the Direct being delayed, then complaining about Isabelle, and now this... it's a bit draining.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Geno's fanbase collapsed after Brawl. Isaac is a lot closer to the likes of Ridley and K. Rool than Geno (who only started to regain his pre-Brawl popularity after the Mii Fighter unveil and the Sakurai quote). Isaac by comparison managed to retain most of his fanbase after Brawl's release and stayed strong going into the ballot due to him not being in Smash 4 in any form (thus looking to be a DLC contender).

You are re-writing history if you think Geno was part of the "trinity". No. He never was. The trinity was Mega Man, Ridley, and K. Rool. All three of those characters were a cut above the rest in terms of requests. After Mega Man's confirmation, I would say the character who replaced Mega Man was either Mewtwo or Little Mac (depending on whether you could count a cut veteran among it or not).

I do think Geno would probably be the second Square-Enix character if one were to happen due to Sakurai expressing interest in the character (one of the few characters he has done so far).

Wasn’t there more of a ‘Big 4’ though? With Mewtwo topping even Ridley, Mega Man and King K.Rool? That’s what I remember from it. Roy also was hugely requested. Isaac was probably around number 5 or so, with popular picks as Shulk just behind him. Geno only had niche followers, the support hugely died out after pre Brawl speculation. To compare him with Isaac is just not realistic.

 

[osby]

Ok, hands up if you're disappointed in the roster. And if so, why? I think there will be FAR fewer this game than it ever has been.

I have zero problems with the newcomers now that we have Isabelle. But her inclusion proved a lot of people are still looking forward for their faves. I also think there will be less salt compared to previous games but last newcomers might change the people's perspective.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

This final roster is great. Everyone gets their own main? K. Rool? Ridley? Squirtle? Yeah, nothing wrong here.

But this box theory is something that comes up every game, and has always ended up being wrong. Remember last round? Here's the website pics...

"Okay, so there are 9 characters a page! So on the last page...

8 slots after Bayo?!?!?!
That means there are 8 characters left to reveal!!!!!. Get hype guys, maybe K.Rool still has a chance for Smash 4!!!!!"

Sakurai has never let the final number get out before the game through official channels. And if he had (which let's face it, people would do this exact analysis), that render would be removed from the internet so fast because its existence is a spoiler.

And don't forget this...

Notice how back-loaded reveals are. Why did we get an August Smash direct with 5 characters? If this is it, we should have gotten Simon and Richter with maybe Chrom in August, so that KKR and DS could be saved for September, then Belle for October, and finally the last two for November. Instead, we got everyone at once?

I will admit, 9 characters then swap per side is a bizarre choice and the fact that they followed the pattern throughout is questionable. But nothing else about it matches with what we've seen of Smash before. If it's final, that's fine. I'm not sitting here crying in denial that my (unlikely in the first place) favorites aren't in. But the theory does ask me to accept a lot of marketing decisions that haven't been made before...

I also don't like the box theory for the same reason I don't like credible leakers - speculation dies. Now, we can say "Oh, I'd like character X in the game because of reasons XYZ," and instead of getting a critical response that analyzes our reasoning, we get "lol, no room on the box. But don't hate Incineroar for getting in!" How do you respond to an argument getting shot down like that? We may as well not even have speculation at that point.

 

[JaidynReiman]

After Isabelle I still think Isaac, Banjo and Geno will be in. Sakurai said he used the ballot to choose the roster of course not all characters in are from there but he's definitely going to add more ballot picks than K. Rool. I think Isaac is in because after seeing Krystal and Shovel Knight Isaac's assist probably would be back by now if he wasn't in and there was that tweet by Sakurai. For Banjo I think he's in because he did well in the ballot (was number 1 on Smash reddit), Vergeben has leaked Minecraft content and he would be the big final newcomer to get people excited. And finally for Geno he had the mii costume which had a splash banner when it was revealed, has a huge following in the smash fanbase and Vergeben leaked another Square rep.

For the other newcomer I think we'll get Incineroar which will bring up the roster to a nice total of 72. For echos like what happened with Alolan forms in Pokemon Sun and Moon I think people are really overestimating how many we'll get. I think there will be only 3 more Felix, Ken and Shadow.

See, this is why I think Isaac is in, but there are multiple problems with Banjo and Geno that could keep them out. Isaac has zero things blocking him from being in, and Sakurai likes to include older IP's that haven't seen limelight in a long time.


Banjo and Geno are both third-parties and may have multiple barriers to get through. I'm sure Sakurai considered both, but that doesn't mean he COULD get them.

This final roster is great. Everyone gets their own main? K. Rool? Ridley? Squirtle? Yeah, nothing wrong here.

But this box theory is something that comes up every game, and has always ended up being wrong. Remember last round? Here's the website pics...
View attachment 164409
"Okay, so there are 9 characters a page! So on the last page...
View attachment 164410
8 slots after Bayo?!?!?!
That means there are 8 characters left to reveal!!!!!. Get hype guys, maybe K.Rool still has a chance for Smash 4!!!!!"

Sakurai has never let the final number get out before the game through official channels. And if he had (which let's face it, people would do this exact analysis), that render would be removed from the internet so fast because its existence is a spoiler.

And don't forget this...

Notice how back-loaded reveals are. Why did we get an August Smash direct with 5 characters? If this is it, we should have gotten Simon and Richter with maybe Chrom in August, so that KKR and DS could be saved for September, then Belle for October, and finally the last two for November. Instead, we got everyone at once?

I will admit, 9 characters then swap per side is a bizarre choice and the fact that they followed the pattern throughout is questionable. But nothing else about it matches with what we've seen of Smash before. If it's final, that's fine. I'm not sitting here crying in denial that my (unlikely in the first place) favorites aren't in. But the theory does ask me to accept a lot of marketing decisions that haven't been made before...

I also don't like the box theory for the same reason I don't like credible leakers - speculation dies. Now, we can say "Oh, I'd like character X in the game because of reasons XYZ," and instead of getting a critical response that analyzes our reasoning, we get "lol, no room on the box. But don't hate Incineroar for getting in!" How do you respond to an argument getting shot down like that? We may as well not even have speculation at that point.

In past titles we've always had secret characters. That's not the case this time... but maybe there will be a few characters held off until just before release and won't be on any promotional materials barring the website itself. Its hard to say.



The reveals being heavily frontloaded this time is definitely quite an oddity. I don't understand why "all stages" would be announced 3 months in advance or "all fighters" either. Neither of these two things really make a whole lot of sense.


I do think they'd have saved K. Rool for a bit longer and pushed back Chrom or Dark Samus as well if there were literally only three characters after that.

Yes, I understand that Sakurai said there'd be a "few more" but I don't understand the logic of announcing so many so early on. That definitely raised expectations. And it would be weird to suddenly come out with promotional material hinting at the full roster long before Sakurai can reveal the final couple characters.

 

[Majora's Visage]

So to coincide with the box theory, and how the bundle and controllers come out on November 2nd... Do you think they will reveal all fighters before then, so people can know there entire roster before purchasing the bundle?

 

[Michele]

Guys....

So, the online service begins in 3/4 days. After that period, you won't be able to play online for free. Will you be paying to get Online Service? I am so 100% getting it!

 

[ChronoBound]

Wasn’t there more of a ‘Big 4’ though? With Mewtwo topping even Ridley, Mega Man and King K.Rool? That’s what I remember from it. Roy also was hugely requested. Isaac was probably around number 5 or so, with popular picks as Shulk just behind him. Geno only had niche followers, the support hugely died out after pre Brawl speculation. To compare him with Isaac is just not realistic.

You are right that Mewtwo was up there with Mega Man, Ridley, and K. Rool. He was the only other character that was (that is why I put the caveat about whether cut veterans counted in the parenthesis). You are also right about Roy being highly requested. I would say outside those four, the next tier set was Little Mac, Roy, and Isaac. Isaac gradually moved up as more of these characters were confirmed.

 

[Zinith]

Guys....

So, the online service begins in 3/4 days. After that period, you won't be able to play online for free. Will you be paying to get Online Service? I am so 100% getting it!

Yeah, I'm getting it...

If just to play that NES Yoshi game lol

 

[Majora's Visage]

Guys....

So, the online service begins in 3/4 days. After that period, you won't be able to play online for free. Will you be paying to get Online Service? I am so 100% getting it!

I don't really have a reason to get it at the moment. But I definitely want it for Smash, so I might wait to subscribe until then

 

[HyruleHero]

This final roster is great. Everyone gets their own main? K. Rool? Ridley? Squirtle? Yeah, nothing wrong here.

But this box theory is something that comes up every game, and has always ended up being wrong. Remember last round? Here's the website pics...
View attachment 164409
"Okay, so there are 9 characters a page! So on the last page...
View attachment 164410
8 slots after Bayo?!?!?!
That means there are 8 characters left to reveal!!!!!. Get hype guys, maybe K.Rool still has a chance for Smash 4!!!!!"

Sakurai has never let the final number get out before the game through official channels. And if he had (which let's face it, people would do this exact analysis), that render would be removed from the internet so fast because its existence is a spoiler.

And don't forget this...

Notice how back-loaded reveals are. Why did we get an August Smash direct with 5 characters? If this is it, we should have gotten Simon and Richter with maybe Chrom in August, so that KKR and DS could be saved for September, then Belle for October, and finally the last two for November. Instead, we got everyone at once?

I will admit, 9 characters then swap per side is a bizarre choice and the fact that they followed the pattern throughout is questionable. But nothing else about it matches with what we've seen of Smash before. If it's final, that's fine. I'm not sitting here crying in denial that my (unlikely in the first place) favorites aren't in. But the theory does ask me to accept a lot of marketing decisions that haven't been made before...

I also don't like the box theory for the same reason I don't like credible leakers - speculation dies. Now, we can say "Oh, I'd like character X in the game because of reasons XYZ," and instead of getting a critical response that analyzes our reasoning, we get "lol, no room on the box. But don't hate Incineroar for getting in!" How do you respond to an argument getting shot down like that? We may as well not even have speculation at that point.

Now they are going to reuse a pattern, 1 character (), 2 characters (, ), 5 characters (, , , , ).
and now:
1 character (Isabelle)
2 characters (Ken, Incineroar)
surprise 5 characters last reveal (Isaac, Felix, Black Knight, Dixie Kong, Geno)

Seems plausible though there are probably better character choices (as I'm just spit balling)

 

[lizard1929]

Guys....

So, the online service begins in 3/4 days. After that period, you won't be able to play online for free. Will you be paying to get Online Service? I am so 100% getting it!

I will pay up if the NES games can be play offline.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I also don't like the box theory for the same reason I don't like credible leakers - speculation dies. Now, we can say "Oh, I'd like character X in the game because of reasons XYZ," and instead of getting a critical response that analyzes our reasoning, we get "lol, no room on the box. But don't hate Incineroar for getting in!" How do you respond to an argument getting shot down like that? We may as well not even have speculation at that point.

I've already been hearing from Dixie-thread about how some folk in this thread have pretty much acted like this, which is bit worrisome already about how this kind of theory will affect the speculation and the game's overall hype itself at the moment.

Which is why I can't just see Sakurai letting something like this go through the marketing, due how it's laid out to render speculation and the insane hype built for the game completely pointless by already lower half of the pre-release period. They'd otherwise have really messed up a very profitable marketing for Ultimate.

I'm feeling on that the theory is bogus, but has some things going for it to allow us pin down what'd come later. At least Gen 7-Mon and Ken could be happening later.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Geno's fanbase collapsed after Brawl. Isaac is a lot closer to the likes of Ridley and K. Rool than Geno (who only started to regain his pre-Brawl popularity after the Mii Fighter unveil and the Sakurai quote). Isaac by comparison managed to retain most of his fanbase after Brawl's release and stayed strong going into the ballot due to him not being in Smash 4 in any form (thus looking to be a DLC contender).

You are re-writing history if you think Geno was part of the "trinity". No. He never was. The trinity was Mega Man, Ridley, and K. Rool. All three of those characters were a cut above the rest in terms of requests. After Mega Man's confirmation, I would say the character who replaced Mega Man was either Mewtwo or Little Mac (depending on whether you could count a cut veteran among it or not).

I do think Geno would probably be the second Square-Enix character if one were to happen due to Sakurai expressing interest in the character (one of the few characters he has done so far).

Isaac has had more consistent support than Geno, but Geno's support at its peak was significantly bigger than Isaac's has ever been. Isaac has pretty much been a tier 2 character in terms of support for his entire history in Smash speculation, where as Geno was at one point at the top, then plummeted to obscurity, and has now got back up again, although not quite to the same heights. It depends a bit on what you put emphasis on, I remember Geno's support better because he used to be that big, but I can see why others would remember Isaac's support more as he's been a subject of discussion much more consistently.

Neither get close to Ridley, K. Rool, Mega Man or Mewtwo, if we count him, so I do agree that there never was a trinity so to say, especially as K. Rool and Geno's support were never at their peaks simultaneously. Those four characters stood out among the rest post-Brawl, and nobody else even got close to joining that party.