Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PsychoIncarnate]

1) Searched those "Fight Against an Armed Boss" memes on Youtube. Hilarious

2) I have vested interest in hoping it's Geno since I've been

I'm just going to hope against all odds

(Also I dislike Incineroar)

 

[Zinith]

Didn't expect the conversation to shift away from the box to Geno...

 

[HyruleHero]

On the other hand, I don't actually care about Nintendo wanting to add characters to advertise XYZ. I play Smash for Smash, not to boost the bottom line of Nintendo that year. So I'd rather see merits to Dragon Quest characters being in besides "they help Nintendo make money," because I don't actually concern myself that much with whether or not a multibillion dollar company will make a bit more money or not.

its nice to think that way but Nintendo is a business, thats probably why wii fit even made it into smash 4 to begin with to continue the advertisement for the best selling wii fit games.

For what it's worth, I think Sora would be a fine choice, but I dunno how likely it is with Disney.

Well I'm not sure how Disney works either but from a business stand point Sora being in smash is the best choice for everyone involved.

 

[Deleted member]

I think thats a very old school thought process. Dragon Quest gets released on Nintendo with most of their games, having a DQ character in Smash would benefit Nintendo more than other companies as the person would already own the switch to play smash so they might as well get the DQ game on the switch.

With clouds inclusion there was no benefit for Nintendo so your logic a bit wrong.

I'm sorry about me arguing I'm just trying to understand the draw of Geno as a character and his odds (and trying to validate my boy Sora).

But you JUST compared Dragon Quest to Fire Emblem, which has a good amount of reasons as to why you really can't compare the two. Again, Fire Emblem is a Nintendo-owned property. Dragon Quest isn't. And if Dragon Quest was "so beneficial" to Nintendo, we would've already gotten Dragon Quest XI on the Switch. It was practically one of the very few first titles to be announced for the Switch before it was even revealed officially back in October of 2016. The fact we're waiting until 2019 just goes to show you that priorities for Dragon Quest are more or less on PlayStation rather than Nintendo. We only got Dragon Quest Heroes I & II, but who knows how that game even sold, considering it was a $85-90 release.

With Cloud, it practically is a huge benefit, though. You're representing Final Fantasy. The most iconic RPG franchise of all time. And who really could you choose from in the series that has that AAA-power? Surely you must remember how much of an explosion it was on the internet when he was revealed, and this was when Nintendo was practically never talked about during the Wii U era. THAT, in of itself, says a LOT and benefited them greatly.

 

[UberMadman]

Remember that Mewtwo got announced as DLC slightly before SSB for Wii U came out. Considering that fact, they had to have talked about doing DLC for at least a month, maybe two or more, prior to that announcement. Makes sense; after all, wouldn’t the best time to talk about DLC be towards the end of development, but before the project ends and anyone involved leaves? It would probably be a good idea to get a headcount and get people to sign a fee papers and such before proceeding gung-ho into DLC.

With that in mind, we are approaching the timeframe in which DLC is probably being decided on. My current theory is that the Square character that Vergeben is talking about, unbeknownst to him and his sources, is in fact the first DLC character, and I personally believe it is, in fact, Geno. I hypothesized earlier that there might be a scenario where Geno was in the talks for longer than normal given the nature of Square owning the rights to him, and Sakurai was unable to secure the rights for him in time to develop him for the base roster. If you were in a position where you knew about these ongoing talks and what they were about, but didn’t have the authority to actually be in them, nor the clearance to access or know about development progress, you might assume that the Square character had been decided on for the base roster, and never even realize the character only got “approved” very late on. So yeah, I think Geno is DLC #1.

With that in mind, I think we’re due for one final Smash Direct in late October/early November that will reveal the remaining two characters, all the remaining single player modes, Spirits mode, the online modes, and it will finally end with the announcement of Geno as eventual DLC, similar to how Mewtwo was announced at the wnd of the 50 Facts Direct. This hypothesis ties up all the lose ends and explains every little contradicting detail, so it’s what I’m going with for the time being.

By the way, remember how we recently found out that Nintendo renewed their trademark for Golden Sun? That fact kind of confused me. If Isaac was going to be in the base game, shouldn’t they have renewed their trademark back closer to 2015, like they did with King K. Rool? Why would they renew it now? I think the answer is simple: assuming once again that DLC talks are also starting now, then Isaac is also probably being planned for DLC at this point, or at least considered.

 

[StormC]

its nice to think that way but Nintendo is a business, thats probably why wii fit even made it into smash 4 to begin with to continue the advertisement for the best selling wii fit games.

Right, but I don't care, lol. Reasons for a character to be in that amount to "they make rich executives even richer" don't convince me of anything. I'd rather see a Geno than a Wii Fit Trainer, personally.

 

[Deleted member]

Didn't expect the conversation to shift away from the box to Geno...

It was either this, or Goku and chair theories.

 

[osby]

As an old boomer who's been knee deep in Smash speculation since the Dojo days... there is a bit of a "what now?" feeling. Part of the reason I became more invested in Banjo is that Smash speculation becomes a lot less engaging without a horse in the race. So yeah, obviously I'm glad the dastardly duo are in the game and that we can put the arguments behind us, but there was a feeling of a community banded together for a cause, and the hope that seemed to be just within reach but also so far away at the same time.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just a rambling geezer. Maybe half of the fun of Smash is the chase. Maybe the real speculation was the friends we made along the way.

Community being banded together is nice and all but if you don't like them, it was honestly exhausting. It felt like you had to want them or why are you in Smash speculation? I feel a lot more relaxed and comfortable now that we put their drama behind.

 

[StormC]

Community being banded together is nice and all but if you don't like them, it was honestly exhausting. It felt like you had to want them or why are you in Smash speculation? I feel a lot more relaxed and comfortable now that we put their drama behind.

Well, current mood:

But nah, I get it. No accounting for taste and all that. I really can't imagine how boring Smash speculation would be if you didn't like either of them.

 

[Darkraid]

So Duck Hunt was the last character added to Smash 4. Did he bring the hype

NOPE

Incineroar is way better last character added

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Didn't expect the conversation to shift away from the box to Geno...

I'm glad it did. Geno is always worth a discussion. He's in such a strange place for a character and it's mesmerizing.

 

[osby]

Right, but I don't care, lol. Reasons for a character to be in that amount to "they make rich executives even richer" don't convince me of anything. I'd rather see a Geno than a Wii Fit Trainer, personally.

Wait, why are comparing those two again?

 

[StormC]

Wait, why are comparing those two again?

Wii Fit Trainer being mentioned as a character that advertises a Nintendo product vs. a character like Geno that doesn't, but is requested by fans.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Kinda funny how earlier yesterday before that box was found people were asking why others were being pessimistic about thinking only 3 or 4 characters were getting in

That pessimism suddenly turned to naive optimism

 

[HyruleHero]

Wii Fit Trainer being mentioned as a character that advertises a Nintendo product vs. a character like Geno that doesn't, but is requested by fans.

looking back on it now only the retro characters and megaman and cloud didn't really advertise Nintendo as such but now they are with megaman 11 and Final Fantasy VII both coming to the switch - Nintendo has turned all the characters into a marketing ploy (and seems like a logical thing to do as well).

 

[osby]

Wii Fit Trainer being mentioned as a character that advertises a Nintendo product vs. a character like Geno that doesn't, but is requested by fans.

One of them is third party, so it's weird comparison.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

All I know is if we get an SE character other than Geno, the reactions would be quite interesting to see.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

One of them is third party, so it's weird comparison.

Geno is like, 3rd party-ish. Like he's a 3rd party character that originated in a first party franchise. That's really wack.

 

[StormC]

looking back on it now only the retro characters and megaman and cloud didn't really advertise Nintendo as such but now they are with megaman 11 and Final Fantasy VII both coming to the switch - Nintendo has turned all the characters into a marketing ploy (and seems like a logical thing to do as well).

I mean, Mega Man is probably the third party character most closely associated with Nintendo, he's considered an NES icon like Mario and Link. He doesn't need a recent Nintendo game to promote when he has dozens of titles on Nintendo already. I am however glad FF7 is finally coming to Nintendo.

Geno is like, 3rd party-ish. Like he's a 3rd party character that originated in a first party franchise. That's really wack.

Both Geno and Banjo are special cases that IMO will not get the third party "rules" applied to them, since they are more-or-less Nintendo characters.

 

[Calane]

It makes me sort of sad seeing people talk about Dragon Quest like it's some unimportant, nobody series that doesn't merit being in Smash. It might not be as popular as Final Fantasy worldwide, but DQ is pretty much the original JRPG. Without it, I don't think FF would even exist.

It's a series with a lot of historical value, and one I think deserves to be represented in Smash in some way. It won't happen, I know that, but it would be really cool to see such an important series get a spot amongst the rest of gaming's most revered franchises.

 

[ShinyRegice]

So I learned about the box hypothesis and the pattern proposed sounds highly plausible, it's much more convincing than something like the chairs hinting at Skull Kid (which I never believed). But I have to admit if it's true then the number of new characters we're getting is below even my lowest expectations, so at first I didn't want to believe it, but now it makes a lot of sense. All veterans returning was probably a huge resourse sink, and I'd expect the Spirit mode to be another big reource sink (although not rearly as much as Subspace, I sure don't expect a lot of story cutscenes). Combined with Smash Ultimate coming relatively early during the Switch's lifetime, it means we should expect a good amount of DLC newcomers, making putting a lot of them in the base game not a big priority.

This however makes me worried about the DLC character selection process, because of the Smash 4 precedent, for which nobody would have predicted the outcome. We could expect more third-party characters due to financial negotiations being probably easier if third-party characters are sold as DLC rather than in the base roster (3/4 Smash 4 DLC newcomers were third-party), as well as "muh relevance recency" being an important factor in order to give the Nintendo Switch era proper representation (especially after the Corrin precedent). But will there be Nintendo newcomers who will get in just because they're long-time popular characters? I'm just worried about characters like Dixie Kong and Bandana Dee who I think deserve it because of their popularity and standing-out status as characters of their own series, but will likely miss the base game.

Personally I'm only expecting two new characters including Ken (or maybe Medusa considering she's also compatible with the box hypothesis), and another character I'm not confident about, although Incineroar seems to be the most likely choice. And for DLC characters, I hope for a healthy mix of third-parties, "muh recency" Switch era characters and long-time requested Nintendo characters.

 

[StormC]

So I learned about the box hypothesis and the pattern proposed sounds highly plausible, it's much more convincing than something like the chairs hinting at Skull Kid (which I never believed). But I have to admit if it's true then the number of new characters we're getting is below even my lowest expectations, so at first I didn't want to believe it, but now it makes a lot of sense. All veterans returning was probably a huge resourse sink, and I'd expect the Spirit mode to be another big reource sink (although not rearly as much as Subspace, I sure don't expect a lot of story cutscenes). Combined with Smash Ultimate coming relatively early during the Switch's lifetime, it means we should expect a good amount of DLC newcomers, making putting a lot of them in the base game not a big priority.

This however makes me worried about the DLC character selection process, because of the Smash 4 precedent, for which nobody would have predicted the outcome. We could expect more third-party characters due to financial negotiations being probably easier if third-party characters are sold as DLC rather than in the base roster (3/4 Smash 4 DLC newcomers were third-party), as well as "muh relevance recency" being an important factor in order to give the Nintendo Switch era proper representation (especially after the Corrin precedent). But will there be Nintendo newcomers who will get in just because they're long-time popular characters? I'm just worried about characters like Dixie Kong and Bandana Dee who I think deserve it because of their popularity and standing-out status as characters of their own series, but will likely miss the base game.

Personally I'm only expecting two new characters including Ken (or maybe Medusa considering she's also compatible with the box hypothesis), and another character I'm not confident about, although Incineroar seems to be the most likely choice. And for DLC characters, I hope for a healthy mix of third-parties, "muh recency" Switch era characters and long-time requested Nintendo characters.

You are insanely pessimistic dude.

Nintendo isn't going to reveal how many characters they have left through a display case. They know keeping a tight lid on that is key to hype.

 

[HyruleHero]

It makes me sort of sad seeing people talk about Dragon Quest like it's some unimportant, nobody series that doesn't merit being in Smash. It might not be as popular as Final Fantasy worldwide, but DQ is pretty much the original JRPG. Without it, I don't think FF would even exist.

It's a series with a lot of historical value, and one I think deserves to be represented in Smash in some way. It won't happen, I know that, but it would be really cool to see such an important series get a spot amongst the rest of gaming's most revered franchises.

DQ got some representation with Mii costumes in Smash4 so I think DQ representation is still very possible.

Edit: well I thought the Gil costume in smash was a Hero from one of the DQ games, sorry guess DQ is just a pipe dream

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, so first off, it's not a falsification. Whether people like the character or not isn't the issue. The issue is that Geno is a one off character who appeared in one game and one of the main reasons he's even as popular as he is is because of a quote from Sakurai on him. And to be fair with "niche" franchises, Super Mario RPG was considered an incredible disappointment for Nintendo compared to games like Donkey Kong Country, Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, Super Mario Kart, and plenty more. Most of those games got close or passed the 5 million mark. That's exceptional. SMRPG was lucky to even hit 2 million. It's late release can be blamed for it but it's falling sales was a big reason it didn't release in PAL regions. Golden Sun on the other hand, surpassed 1.5 million with its first release despite any mascot pull from Mario and is still considered one of the greatest GBA games of all time. Oh but you said we only talk about the first one, except, that's not true. A lot of people see The Lost Age as superior to the first and in turn love it even more. People are even clamoring for a Felix echo if we get Isaac. The Lost Age sold 1.2 million. Again, that's really, REALLY good for a non mascot game on a handheld system, let alone a deep turn based RPG. Sure, Dark Dawn is a let down sales wise with close to half a million but here's the thing, you know what all those games have in common? Isaac. He's in every one of em. Geno doesn't have that luxury. He's only been featured in 1, and then barely cameos in another. Which is fine, he's popular, but he's not NEAR on the level of K. Rool or Ridley. Saying he IS is a falsification.

Right, I acknowledged this and counteracted it with the point that, yes, so was Isaac. I mean Isaac was popular enough to at least get an assist trophy. He might not have gotten a Mii Costume last game but he's been acknowledged during Brawl at the very least.

Sure, Final Fantasy is a bigger franchise than Dragon Quest over here but saying that Dragon Quest is just now gaining traction is incorrect. Even back when it was known as Dragon Warrior it was doing pretty well. And the DS era of Dragon Quest was pretty lucrative over here.

I don't think it's bad for business if Geno got in but saying he's the only reasonable one is really underselling characters like Lara Croft, Squall, Lightning, Noctis, etc. And just because people love the game outside of Smash doesn't mean those same people are clamoring for Geno inside of Smash. You could say that about Isaac too, but the difference is that most Golden Sun fans support Isaac in Smash with the hopes of a new Golden Sun game.

I'm not saying he's not popular, I'm not saying his game isn't a classic, I'm just saying putting him up there with Ridley and K. Rool is ignoring their popularity entirely. They are far FAR more popular than Isaac and Geno could hope to be and that's fine. They're still the next most popular characters. Where's the harm in that?

In regards to your first point, number-wise, we could've said the exact same thing about Ness for his respective franchise selling like the voice acting in a Kingdom Hearts game - absolutely dreadful. But we still ended up having him around for the entirety of the series. When I try to think of how "popular" or how "impactful" a game has had upon the internet and just general media, I try to look for various keywords around sites like YouTube and niconico, and also try to look at sales too. While yes, Golden Sun has had the upper hand sales-wise over Mario RPG, but when it comes to fan response and how the fans treat either franchise, you cannot deny that Super Mario RPG landslides that. And trust me, I'd love to live in a world where a video of a Golden Sun song gets remixed with anime has over 3.5 million views, but I think when it comes down to it at the end of the day is we can't really use "sales" as a factor when we've seen time and time again with franchises like MOTHER / EarthBound (Mother 3 and the cult following EarthBound has had over the years), Xenoblade (Operation Rainfall-era of Xenoblade) and Super Mario RPG has been notoriously known for having a huge vocal fanbase.

Now, in regards to some other points - which I don't know if these were mine, in which case, I'm sorry please don't hurt me aaaaaah

Dragon Quest on the DS was really the only Dragon Quest that I can remember that really only some people en masse have played. But remember, we're talking about Square RPGs, and when you're stacking something like Final Fantasy to Dragon Quest, when it comes to how big it is in the U.S., obviously priorities are to the former because something something Aerith death scene and Tidus laugh HAA HAA HAA HAA.

I guess in a way I should've rephrased how I meant "Holy Trinity", because I really see it as a list. King K. Rool, no matter what, will always be on top because he has both American and Japanese fanbases, with some countries here and there. Ridley being second, because a massive part of his fanbase is primarily American, and then Geno would be a good third.

 

[PLATINUM7]

We only got Dragon Quest Heroes I & II, but who knows how that game even sold, considering it was a $85-90 release.

We also got Dragon Quest Builders. Japan also got a 3DS version of DQXI which sold very similarly to the PS4 version.

DQ got some representation with Mii costumes in Smash4 so I think DQ representation is still very possible.

No it didn't.

 

[StormC]

DQ got some representation with Mii costumes in Smash4 so I think DQ representation is still very possible.

Dragon Quest got Mii costumes? News to me...

 

[Calane]

DQ got some representation with Mii costumes in Smash4 so I think DQ representation is still very possible.

Did it? I don't recall that happening. Guess I'll have to look that up.

Edit: Hmm. I guess you must have been mistaken. Perhaps you thought Gil from "The Tower of Druaga" was a DQ character?

 

[HyruleHero]

voice acting in a Kingdom Hearts game - absolutely dreadful

Come on man Haley Joel Osment is a great voice actor. I think the amount of cheese in the voice acting in KH is perfect and I'd love to see it in smash as well.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Dragon Quest got Mii costumes? News to me...

DQ has no Mii costumes. Only Square Mii costumes were Geno and the Chocobo hat.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

In regards to your first point, number-wise, we could've said the exact same thing about Ness for his respective franchise selling like the voice acting in a Kingdom Hearts game - absolutely dreadful. But we still ended up having him around for the entirety of the series. When I try to think of how "popular" or how "impactful" a game has had upon the internet and just general media, I try to look for various keywords around sites like YouTube and niconico, and also try to look at sales too. While yes, Golden Sun has had the upper hand sales-wise over Mario RPG, but when it comes to fan response and how the fans treat either franchise, you cannot deny that Super Mario RPG landslides that. And trust me, I'd love to live in a world where a video of a Golden Sun song gets remixed with anime has over 3.5 million views, but I think when it comes down to it at the end of the day is we can't really use "sales" as a factor when we've seen time and time again with franchises like MOTHER / EarthBound (Mother 3 and the cult following EarthBound has had over the years), Xenoblade (Operation Rainfall-era of Xenoblade) and Super Mario RPG has been notoriously known for having a huge vocal fanbase.

Now, in regards to some other points - which I don't know if these were mine, in which case, I'm sorry please don't hurt me aaaaaah

Dragon Quest on the DS was really the only Dragon Quest that I can remember that really only some people en masse have played. But remember, we're talking about Square RPGs, and when you're stacking something like Final Fantasy to Dragon Quest, when it comes to how big it is in the U.S., obviously priorities are to the former because something something Aerith death scene and Tidus laugh HAA HAA HAA HAA.

I guess in a way I should've rephrased how I meant "Holy Trinity", because I really see it as a list. King K. Rool, no matter what, will always be on top because he has both American and Japanese fanbases, with some countries here and there. Ridley being second, because a massive part of his fanbase is primarily American, and then Geno would be a good third.

I would say Isaac as third, Geno as fourth but eh, you bring up some good points and it's all subjective anywho. Either way I think they're about even, and I support them both so I'll just agree to agree with some of your points and agree to disagree with others.

 

[Zinith]

inb4 the SE rep is Chocobo, JUST AS THE MII COSTUMES INDICATED!!!

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I had no idea who Gil was until yesterday when I actually looked it up

 

[staindgrey]

I'm all-in on the box theory. It's sound. It's logical. It's drawing from what's actually given rather than grasping at straws.

The only thing that still perplexes me, assuming that we are, in fact, only getting two more newcomers and one of them is a Pokemon... why did they announce both Simon and K. Rool in August? The timing of that direct made it seem like they still had a lot left to show in terms of the roster. In hindsight, again assuming that the box theory holds up, that felt more like an early October direct, to distract potential customers from the other big releases coming in November.

Regardless, I think people have selective hearing when they say they're disappointed by the amount of newcomers. Sakurai said quite clearly that he hoped we wouldn't expect too many newcomers, yet people assumed there would be even more than in Smash 4. That makes so much sense.

 

[Deleted member]

I would say Isaac as third, Geno as fourth but eh, you bring up some good points and it's all subjective anywho. Either way I think they're about even, and I support them both so I'll just agree to agree with some of your points and agree to disagree with others.

Just what I'd expect from the legendary Solid Snake...

But yeah, I feel you regardless. I mean, forever will my most wanted at this point be Rex & Pyra, but I'll be DAMNED if I ain't doing my job to support my wholesome little doll buddy. I really just want him in to prove to Nintendo that they can do so much more with the Mario franchise and maybe we can get a re-release or something new. And hey! Maybe that's the case currently with Final Fantasy VII, IX, X + X-2 AND XII coming to the Switch and Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle - which is almost like the first-ever Nintendo-approved fan game, in a way.

Really in the end, Super Mario RPG is a bit of a weird oddity in gaming. It's like EarthBound, but at the same time, it's only just a spin-off installment and not like a pre-established IP, but yet people still die-hard over it, but yet... Yeah.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm all-in on the box theory. It's sound. It's logical. It's drawing from what's actually given rather than grasping at straws.

The only thing that still perplexes me, assuming that we are, in fact, only getting two more newcomers and one of them is a Pokemon... why did they announce both Simon and K. Rool in August? The timing of that direct made it seem like they still had a lot left to show in terms of the roster. In hindsight, again assuming that the box theory holds up, that felt more like an early October direct, to distract potential customers from the other big releases coming in November.

Regardless, I think people have selective hearing when they say they're disappointed by the amount of newcomers. Sakurai said quite clearly that he hoped we wouldn't expect too many newcomers, yet people assumed there would be even more than in Smash 4. That makes so much sense.

My only guess is that he got most of the characters out of the way so he could focus exclusively on Spirits mode in the next Smash direct

 

[Deleted member]

Come on man Haley Joel Osment is a great voice actor. I think the amount of cheese in the voice acting in KH is perfect and I'd love to see it in smash as well.

My gripes come from, A, the writing, and B, how they execute it. How we live in a society where we can say Xenoblade Chronicles 2 had ****ty voice acting yet KINGDOM HEARTS has phenominal voice acting...

We really do live in a society.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

If we’re getting a Dragon Quest Rep, it better be Slime. He’s the most iconic part of the series and honestly I want to see what kind of crazy **** Sakurai can come up with for such a strange character.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Geno and Isaac are fairly comparable in that both were at their most popular pre-Brawl, then for Smash 4 their popularity waned significantly (for the base game at least, I wasn't here for DLC), and now after the 8.8.18 Direct they've had a huge revival. Even if they don't get in I think their recent popularity will serve them very well for DLC.

Also, what's this box that seems to have caused widespread destruction while I've been asleep?

 

[HyruleHero]

My gripes come from, A, the writing, and B, how they execute it. How we live in a society where we can say Xenoblade Chronicles 2 had ****ty voice acting yet KINGDOM HEARTS has phenominal voice acting...

We really do live in a society.

View attachment 164403

you have to remember the last KH game was in 2002 (or 2012 if KH:DDD counts) so obviously the voice acting wouldn't really be comparable to XC2, we can compare the voice acting once KH3 comes out... I'm really hoping the voice acting gives me chortles.

 

[Deleted member]

If we’re getting a Dragon Quest Rep, it better be Slime. He’s the most iconic part of the series and honestly I want to see what kind of crazy **** Sakurai can come up with for such a strange character.

Slime I'd be down for.

What I WON'T be down for is the dark side of the internet coming out. Like how they've done with Isabelle.