Smash UK Discussion Thread - Check first post for tournaments, facebook info and videos!

[Professor Pro]

What's funny is you feel the need to defend yourself so badly.

loool I agree, Charles is getting a bit defensive about it.

Brado - Do you think Tamoo could do better voices?
lol And btw I heard about what you and Tamoo were like at this event.......I was laughing hard when I heard it.

Remember TC........JOLTEON I mean lol.
Remember when we were speaking about it at Alpha Dashs and laughing LOADSSS lol.

It's pretty disgraceful imo.

 

[VA]

I'd like to say VA, you cannot 100% edgeguard a char when I'm using 50/50's or 30/30/30's, you cant see into the future

This is wrong. 50/50's do not exist in smash. the closest I cna think of is very specific sheik edgaurading situations but it's still not 50/50. The space in smash elimates such a thing.

 

[Fuzzyness]

they do exist in nearly all fighting games

even Ice was telling me Fox had a 50/50 where you had to guess if it was an u air or b air.

It's just anything where you have 2 choices or more and have to guess one of them. Some situations with falcon against peach, peach has to guess (not fox tho, he's faster) especially if I'm recovering high as I can edge cancel, go backwards/forwards and grab the edge again. There's a lot of options. And also the choice of when to falcon kick recovery or not.

even something simple like what peach can do from jabs, she has like 3 options or more and the defending player has to guess

 

[Professor Pro]

I don't guess anything.

I react!!!!!!!

 

[VA]

I don't guess! I work it out from options! and no, you can close them down in smash. not something you can do in SF, where you have to guess which way they're attacking when they don't even know. Just cos Ice told you, doesn't mean it's true. you have to think through all of the options and most of the time there are lots and it's up to the player to close them down.

I can think of loads more than 3 options of what peach can do from jab.

 

[Aiko]

yes there are loads of options, but they are nearly all sub-optimal.

There are quite a few options to recover, but by edgeguarding, you reduce options till theyre about 50-50 or 1/3 and you keep shutting them down until its guaranteed (100%, 1/1, whatever you want to call it).

If youre talking about options you can do from a peach jab, you can theoretically do ANY move, but depending on the situation you arent gonna do most of them because they are not optimal.

And these situations exist in nearly all fighting games and infact all direct competition. Anybody that plays any other direct comeptitive game knows this.

 

[Fuzzyness]

thank you aiko =)

a 50/50 can be anything, falling through a platform or not, grabbing the edge or not, adding options like edgecancels on recoveries

a stupid one in street fighter 2 turbo is with O Ken walk up and either grab or shoryuken (if the player holds block he gets grabbed or hit by a safe shoryuken) (if the player tries to hit then he'll either get hit by shoryu or grab first)

situations where you have to guess 1 out of 2 options, its not something reactable. Tech chasing is reactable but VERY hard against fox

 

[Retroking2000]

lol you guys dont know anything about smash

 

[VA]

lol you guys dont know anything about smash

agree

you're wrong aiko. sub-optimal is not existant in smash the same way it is in other fighters for 50/50's.

Peach's jab shows this perfectly. Someone might think Peach has 3 options from jab:

Grab
Dsmash
FC air

Player X believes this to be optimal. Player Y think that Peach can also:

Dash away (stay safe/bait)
Dtilt (combo)
Spot dodge (read/bait)

Player Y has a better mix up game because he's aware of options. You have to be aware of all of them to be able to read and understand. Tech chasing is simply down to positioning yourself. You must be aware of yourself and the stage, it's incredibly easy on YS to tech chase a Fox with marth.

When you throw the fox, position yourself where it is most sensible to tech. So you've Fthrowed him on 50% under the platform, he should tech back into the middle of the stage so you Wdash back to cover. If he techs in place you dash forward and grab again, if he techs away the ledge makes him continue his roll animation and you have plenty of time to regrab. If he rolls towards you are already in position to grab. If he fails the tech there are lots of things to think about and do.

Every action in smash is approached by working out the options, none of which are reducible to one or the other really. There are always more things to do and in terms of edgegaurding, you're right. You go about shutting it down until there's nothing left.

Basically, there are a few examples where 1/3 mix ups and stuff exist but there are always other things to do in smash because it's that complex and varied a game. An example I can think of that is represents the 1/3's failings is what Amsah told me about Peach edgeguard on Sheik. Essentially he told me that Armada has a system in which Amsah has a 1/3 chance of DIing correctly. This does not apply to me fighting beast, because beast does not DI the same way as Amsah. Everything in smash is relative to the player you're facing as well, for example, jab grab was effective to kill charles where a nair on 160% wasn't...

Anyway that's my understanding of it, if you think Peach has 3 optimal things from jab then you carry on thinking that xD

 

[J03]

i dont think there are 50/50's tbh.

there may well be only 2 viable options which your opponent is likely to use but its only 50/50 if its an uneducated guess. there are no uneducated guesses rofl

then you have unviable options which you or your opponent may use. and none of this factors in human error

this can lead to sometimes having to take the worst possible option because your opponent is expecting you to think about it and take the best possible option. theres literally 100's of times where me and coey have had massive lols because if this xD

 

[J03]

When you throw the fox, position yourself where it is most sensible to tech.

this is the most useful post in this debate. not just in that one situation but in everything you do because you SHOULD guess your opponent will do the most sensible thing! (in my case ill cover the most likely option AND be aware of the option that i would personally take, i.e. in edgeguarding, techchasing and certain comboes) if they catch on, then update your choices accordingly.

some useful things that you gain from your opponent by this are information of patterns and information of adpatability. ALSO if your opponent adapts quickly you know that they are usually less likely to take the same option multiple times in a row. SO if you cover an option correctly you can all but eliminate them taking the same option the second time, or vise versa if you dont cover an option.

i hope this is all well known but mebe itll help someone somewhere rofl.

 

[X1-12]

what about when someone, say falcon is recovering from below the stage, he can either land just on the stage or he can grab the edge, for falcon thats a 50/50 even though afterwards the next interaction is gonna be not in falcons favour the first one is stlil a 50/50

 

[Fuzzyness]

both are punishable tho :/

VA I know peach has more than 3 options from jab lol, I was only just thinking of an example

 

[Professor Pro]

what about when someone, say falcon is recovering from below the stage, he can either land just on the stage or he can grab the edge, for falcon thats a 50/50 even though afterwards the next interaction is gonna be not in falcons favour the first one is stlil a 50/50

It's not 50/50 if you know the height of Falcons Up B and if he is going to get on the stage or not cos you can react to punish both and if your a fox and a falcon is below you, you don't have to worry about if he is gonna get ont he stage or not........SHINE!!!

 

[Bullet Bill]

the thing is with falcon you can cover all of his options anyway so you don't have to guess

 

[VA]

what about when someone, say falcon is recovering from below the stage, he can either land just on the stage or he can grab the edge, for falcon thats a 50/50 even though afterwards the next interaction is gonna be not in falcons favour the first one is stlil a 50/50

It's just not the same as a 50/50 in street fighter.

In SF2 Turbo Claw has a 50/50 on wake up. You have no choice but to guess a direction to block, you get hit and it starts again everytime. This is the nature of a 50/50.

In the situation you just posed, the other character may grab the edge eliminating the options, it's just not what you call a 50/50. Falcon then has to go on the stage. The reason 50/50's don't work for smash is because they rely on one player having no agency, they just have to sit there and guess. That's ****ing stupid to suggest that this ever arises in edgeguarding.

Also Charles, what are you saying you used something as an example that you knew wasn't true? Good choice of example. :/

 

[Professor Pro]

Also Charles, what are you saying you used something as an example that you knew wasn't true? Good choice of example. :/

I love when debates have the sly insults in loool .

Keep it up guys.

 

[Retroking2000]

**** VA is making hella good posts

he should be 1st in uk

i understand the 50/50 from all you guys but shouldnt where you place yourself determinie what likely ur opponents action should be. (baiting)

i dont know about you guys but i would want all those possbilities always there .

I know Every character controls different regions of space.

Marth controls a LOT of space around himself because of the range and priority of his sword. Pichu, on the other hand, has very little concrete space control. You'll find that the ability to dominate areas of the level is directly proportional to a character's position on the tier list.

Fox, when compared to Marth, Falco, and Sheik, controls relatively little space around him. Sheik's needles and their trajectory can dominate whole blocks of the stage at any given time, and can often shut down offenses and create solid approaches. Marth's sword can swipe a lot of projectiles out of the air, and characters will have trouble approaching a Marth with decent timing because he just cuts through their attacks. Falco's laser is a beam of control across the entire stage. He is concretely threatening you when you are on the other side of the level! Not to mention, almost all of his moves (when compared to Fox's) have more priority and reach. Yet fox still gets kos well eg prof >_<

That is in part because of Fox's incredible space control POTENTIAL. He is absurdly fast, and he's small. He can run in and out of range of attacks quickly, making him difficult to hit. He doesn't have much CONCRETE range, but his ability to put himself into those places makes him a tremendous threat even when he's on the other side of the stage.


why stress about all the actions where you could ultimately just force the opponent to do what you want them to do .

just know your character

 

[Professor Pro]

loool He should be 1st in the UK cos of his posts.

Then make me the god of smash in the UK.

 

[Bullet Bill]

PDOT says: (36 minutes ago)
i think i might team with prof to make it fair

Alex (Jolteon) <3 says: (35 minutes ago)
but then it will be more ****

PDOT says: (34 minutes ago)
true true

 

[Retroking2000]

lol not cause of his posts , its just he gives alot of insight

 

[J03]

Edwin: good post.

Fox doesnt 'control' space in the same way marth or falco do. His speed and shine allow him to control space with sheer dominance and presence. His speed allows him to cover multiple options in a very short space of time. Alot like you personally do with marth. I.e. when you throw a fox, you often cover his landing spot with a d-tilt, and if that doesnt hit, you still have time to tech-chase. Fox is basically quick enough to cover all the options you have by throwing out quick attacks.

 

[Aiko]

I really have no idea where this discussion is heading now, or even why it started or what the original point is. I think it was someone saying 50:50's (or some other ratio) doesn't exist in smash.

I think the fact is, yes they do, and while for a large part of the match itself they dont exist and particularly the on stage game (which is arguably the hardest part of smash),we are all trying to force these situations on our opponents and its who can create the most (or in some cases who can see these situations) and capitalise on them is who wins.

Edgeguarding is probably the most textbook part of melee, especially when you have matchups such as marth vs spacies, who can effectively cover almost all options.

The on-stage part of smash still allows these ratio situations (eg tech chasing, spacing traps) but thankfully the game is not completely textbook, because if it were, it would be simply not allow creativity and likely make the game boring.

VA: Yes there are sub optimal moves, but because of the dynamics of direct-competition, fighting games are alot like debates.

Player X says this series of moves is optimal.
Player Y says, no, its not optimal when you consider this!
and the debate continues.

Competition and particularly fighting games are all arguements of which tactics are optimal in the presence of another mind. If a move is sub-optimal, create situations where it IS optimal.

eg. Peach jab leaves you, hypothetically, 3 options:

Grab
Attack
Wait (for spot dodge/roll/counterattack)

If you condition your opponent to sheild, perhaps by using attacks on previous similar situations, then grab is going to be effective. Note grab here is optimal.

However next time you repeat the jab, your opponent will remember the last grab and may spot dodge to avoid the grab. Note the grab is sub-optimal in this situation and the optimal move is to wait.

This clearly demonstrates the dynamic permuation of optimal moves. At any given moment there are optimal and sub-optimal moves. I'm pretty confident you already know this but it may provide insight to younger players.

 

[j3ly]

lol edwin, you didnt write hardly any of that post, i read that in the guides section aages ago

let me pose this example

peach vs falco
falco has used illusion 5 times, firefox 5 times. screw the names.

peach is on the edge, her float is already all used up
Falco is going to be horizontal from the edge slightly above though, at a str8 angle (i hope that makes sense)

How does peach guess? she has no float cancel left from the edge and if she guesses upB, she misses her chance to hit falco outta sideB. Also the falco can switch up the angle adding a higher fraction - lets say 30/30/30

I dont know if this particular example does exist or watever, but u guys cannot tell me that you ever guessed a phantasm wrong, and was not able to punish the upB. Maybe a better option was availiable that could have covered both, but you CAAANNOT tell me that that holds true for every single situation. That doesnt make any sense, literally. LITERALLY on a PROPER level you CANNOT tell me that there is not a single 50/50 situation. There are loads with the not very good chars and falco/foxs recovery. Not all chars can cover all options, some just do not have that ability. They guess, for examples sake lets say the opponent is good and switches up his recovery enough to give no insight on how to gimp it. Char B must guess, out of 2 options, Char A's redcovery. i simply do not understand how anybody could say 50/50 does not exist - it is so illogical i cant get my head around it and now im slightly angry too.

FOX above the stage, he is in upB animation, out of Marios FH range so i cannot go right close and cover all options

i can jump infront of him and cape there, he might go forward
i can get inbetween fox and the edge sweetspot, care ther
fox could FF upwards, but in this situation it leads to death

The second fox hit that upB button, the situation got reduced to a strickt 50/50 situation. Fox has 2 options, 1 have two options. I have no idea which way he will go - if you guys pull out the "oh yes high level of play good char blah blah" agrument, then i could say that this dude is so leet it is literally impossible to 2nd gues his recovery. Even if he illusions forwards that is still covered by the cape option so ignore that option if you reply to me please

 

[Retroking2000]

lool you found me out !

sherlock holmes

 

[J03]

peach gets up and d-smashes

 

[j3ly]

lol that was a random example off the top of my head and i even said afterwards - i dont know if that example exists. It makes 0/0 sense to say that statistics do not exist in smash.

Fox in middle of fd, lieing on the floor for some reason

your reactions are slow lets say
your standing ontop of him
he has split his wake up perfectly between the options throughout

your reactions are slow, you cannot react
therefore u MUST
MUSt
HAVE TO

guess there we have a fraction, he can stand, stand attack, roll, roll.
25/25/25/25

i guess you could say you could smash his *** while still standing, but he might be able to react to that himself and gets invincibility frames

i know i am being obscure but there is no point being obscure back - my point, no matter how (but more likely not) obscure a situation is, chance and guess does exist.

these are obscure examples because thats what im thinking of atm, but there must be literally huuuundreds of scenarios. Joe refer to the middle bit of my post about fox/mario. Given - fox could have done alot better and maybe not FF'd above the stage but comeon, work with me and put some actual thought into it, saying that there are no such things as fractional DEPENDANT situations in smash is just plain ********

j3ly 4 pres

 

[J03]

there are general things that youd never do.

against spacies you shouldnt be on the edge unless theyve dropped for an UP+B.

against marth, sheik, Doc and others you should almost always be on the edge.

Against peach and jiggs you should rarely be on the edge, unless theyre below the edge.

as a general rule you should only be on the edge if theyre below the edge, as to recover they HAVE to pass the edge, and you.

the same aplpies if theyre above the edge, you should be on the stage.

 

[j3ly]

REGARDLESS

gantz upB'd above the stage

i had no idea which way he was going to go, str8, sweetspot, up

i had a 1 in 3 chance of caping
30/30/30 watever

i picked an option at random
his option may not have been random
mine WAS

saying you 'should' do this, you 'shouldent do that' - you cannot have a discussion on a core element of the game, and totaly ignore some situations. That wouldent be a fair test. Its all very well saying - oh noes hes pro, he would NEVER do that'

well guess what, it happens all the time, and doesnt stop those situations from being fractions

your post above imo didnt actually push either point either direction
just random, kinda unrelated facts

 

[Aiko]

saying you 'should' do this, you 'shouldent do that' - you cannot have a discussion on a core element of the game, and totaly ignore some situations. That wouldent be a fair test. Its all very well saying - oh noes hes pro, he would NEVER do that'

a well made point. Good players make "sub-optimal" moves work. It's basically what Joe said before, when he does these things with coey. Sometimes the stupid move/recovery is infact also the best one. Sometimes moves are so stupid, you dont expect them and they work.

 

[Jolteon]

lol that was a random example off the top of my head and i even said afterwards - i dont know if that example exists. It makes 0/0 sense to say that statistics do not exist in smash.

Fox in middle of fd, lieing on the floor for some reason

your reactions are slow lets say
your standing ontop of him
he has split his wake up perfectly between the options throughout

your reactions are slow, you cannot react
therefore u MUST
MUSt
HAVE TO

guess there we have a fraction, he can stand, stand attack, roll, roll.
25/25/25/25

i guess you could say you could smash his *** while still standing, but he might be able to react to that himself and gets invincibility frames

i know i am being obscure but there is no point being obscure back - my point, no matter how (but more likely not) obscure a situation is, chance and guess does exist.

these are obscure examples because thats what im thinking of atm, but there must be literally huuuundreds of scenarios. Joe refer to the middle bit of my post about fox/mario. Given - fox could have done alot better and maybe not FF'd above the stage but comeon, work with me and put some actual thought into it, saying that there are no such things as fractional DEPENDANT situations in smash is just plain ********

j3ly 4 pres

I don't understand why this example is relevant, does it really make sense to assume you have poor reactions and are unable to limit options down to 1?

If your point is to prove that the theory behind 50/50s exists in Smash then fair enough - I don't think anyone could argue against that. I mean, after all, 2 options=50/50. The hard part would be finding true examples of 50/50s. I'm sure very few examples might exist because smash is such a complex game with lots of scenarios, but then again this complexity also makes it harder to find true situations with 2 options.

 

[J03]

im sick at edgeguarding. its not argueing with the mechanics, its common knowledge. if someone is above the edge and your on the edge, they can go over you. if your on the stage and theyre below the stage they can sweetspot.

this is the basis which all edgeguarding mindgames are based lol.

 

[j3ly]

1 example from 1 situation, and 1 other example from another situation
add in the rest of the possible moves the other person can make..

YOU HAVE A FRACTION.

:O

Yes tc that is exactly what i am trying to say lol, and ask fuzzy im sure he knows loads of the top of his head with the top tier chars

 

[Professor Pro]

All this covering options talk and the percentages and fractions of possibilites is annoying and plus doesn't include MANY factors and is breaking the game down to make it seem simple and making it seem like **** brawl.

Just **** like me and cover all options, create all options and prevent all options.

 

[Jolteon]

1 example from 1 situation, and 1 other example from another situation
add in the rest of the possible moves the other person can make..

YOU HAVE A FRACTION.

:O

Yes tc that is exactly what i am trying to say lol, and ask fuzzy im sure he knows loads of the top of his head with the top tier chars

Yeah I thought that's what you meant xD, its just the example is a bit silly.

I can think of maybe 1 sheik edgeguard that is a 50/50 but I'm not 100% sure yet because i haven't been using it.

All this covering options talk is annoying and the percentages and fractions of possibilites.

Just **** like me and cover all options, create options and prevent options.

stfu and get 7000 posts quicker you dumb ******.

 

[Professor Pro]

*** you TC.....I will go at my steady pace lol.

 

[Jolteon]

Who is TC?

 

[Professor Pro]

Your real name.

 

[Aiko]

not like his other silly smash name - Alex

 

[Jolteon]

@aaron: No one is allowed to call me by my real name now.

@ant: Yeah I felt "Alex" was a bit lacking - needed some change.