Smash Charge Canceling

[Slashy]

This could make charging Smashes useful and buff mindgame potential.

 

[CloneHat]

This could make charging Smashes useful and buff mindgame potential.

Charging smashes is not useful? >_>

Don't make a new thread just for this.

 

[Slashy]

Charging smashes is not useful? >_>

Don't make a new thread just for this.

They are not as useful due to no knockback/damage decay at all.

They leave you too vulnerable if you fail to predict your opponent properly.

 

[5ive]

So how would this be performed if it were to be implemented?

And yeah, pointless topic. Should of asked us at the IRC or another topic.

 

[leafgreen386]

They are not as useful due to no knockback/damage decay at all.

They leave you too vulnerable if you fail to predict your opponent properly.

Then how about you predict your opponent properly instead of whine about it?

 

[Dai Tian]

If this were implemented I'd imagine they'd be canceled by shielding before the attack comes out.

I have to admit, it's a nice little idea but I'm not convinced about it being a great one just yet. At least, I'm not seeing too many benefits coming out of this.

Edit: I'd have to agree now that I've thought about it, good things come out of it but it's also too good. You could endlessly charge and cancel smashes and effectively stall a match. Maybe I'm making too much of it I can already see some characters who probably wouldn't be reliably punished for doing this.

 

[illinialex24]

This is kinda pointless, it makes smashes almost too good.

 

[Arkaether]

Agreed, this is pointless. Smashing charge attacks is a high-risk/high-reward situation; basically, if you can successfully leave yourself open for a long time while predicting where your opponent will go, you get increased damage and increased knockback. Allowing you to stop charging a smash would result in a no-risk/high-reward situation. Not only that, there's no need at all for it. It's not like charged smashes are worthless right now.

 

[Zodac]

doesn't it take frames to drop your shield, still could be punished

also grabs

 

[Dark Sonic]

Shield comes out in 1 frame and you can immediately spotdodge, roll, jump, upsmash, or up B out of it (of course each of these have startup lag to deal with).

Shield canceling is a very powerful cancel option, almost as good as straight up IASA frames.

 

[KarateF22]

this would make certain people a bit rediculous to fight..... Those with massive range huge windup massive knockback smashes could charge them to make the opponent GTFO, or by chance they run in, own them... with little to no punishment. Smashes should not be canceled.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I was about to suggest something along the lines of Smash Cancelling at the cost of taking 10 to 15% damage. Then I remembered that Lucario was in this game.
So yeah, I don't really see how this could be implemented without breaking the game.

 

[metaXzero]

Basically, be able to cancel out of a charged Smash if you decide not to attack? I don't see why not. It'd kinda be like SF4's Focus Attacks (minus canceling it into a dash or something). And we would see more use of Charged Smashes for mindgames

But I also don't see why go through the trouble either. Do we want that?

 

[Dai Tian]

Basically, be able to cancel out of a charged Smash if you decide not to attack? I don't see why not. It'd kinda be like SF4's Focus Attacks (minus canceling it into a dash or something). And we would see more use of Charged Smashes for mindgames

But I also don't see why go through the trouble either. Do we want that?

They're exactly what I thought of when I first saw this topic too. Problem is the Focus Attacks do have a universal risk to them (Taking damage during them) and canceling charged smashes don't have the same risk for every character. It'd be a great idea if they had a risk to them but some characters have smashes that are fast enough for them to punish any attempts to counter.

 

[metaXzero]

They're exactly what I thought of when I first saw this topic too. Problem is the Focus Attacks do have a universal risk to them (Taking damage during them) and canceling charged smashes don't have the same risk for every character. It'd be a great idea if they had a risk to them but some characters have smashes that are fast enough for them to punish any attempts to counter.

But when you are charging either of them and decide not to attack and instead cancel, you are pretty much safe from attack. It's when you decide not to cancel the attack that you are vulnerable if whiff it. Though some characters have better cool-down then others in Smash as oppossed to SF4 where a whiffed Focus Attack for anybody is pretty similar in cooldown.

On the other hand though, charging Smashes have no type of armor frames (though some have some type of armor when attacking) while Focus Attacks have 1-hit armor throughout charging and attacking.

 

[CloneHat]

We're not making Street Fighter.

Canceling a charge sets up for a grab/UpB. If you get punished for charging a smash, it's not a problem with the game.

 

[metaXzero]

We're not making Street Fighter.

Canceling a charge sets up for a grab/UpB. If you get punished for charging a smash, it's not a problem with the game.

Adding the ability to carry your running momentum into the air didn't make Brawl+ Melee. Ergo, adding the ability to cancel Smashes when charging wouldn't make Brawl+ Street Fighter (or just SF4).

If you cancel a Smash attack instead of using it, neither side gains any real advantages. The person who canceled would just not leave themselves open with a whiffed Smash and the other player would see nothing to punish then and not go in.

I don't really care if this code were made and added to Brawl+. I just don't see why not. It's basically a "would you like this addition" thing (which the posters have shown "no we wouldn't".

 

[Dai Tian]

But when you are charging either of them and decide not to attack and instead cancel, you are pretty much safe from attack. It's when you decide not to cancel the attack that you are vulnerable if whiff it. Though some characters have better cool-down then others in Smash as oppossed to SF4 where a whiffed Focus Attack for anybody is pretty similar in cooldown.

On the other hand though, charging Smashes have no type of armor frames (though some have some type of armor when attacking) while Focus Attacks have 1-hit armor throughout charging and attacking.

That's I'd say my biggest issue with it. Cooldown in SF4 is pretty much equal all over for the characters for missed and canceled Focus Attacks, so the chance for punishing any character doing or whiffing one is equal. In smash some characters can just sit back and wait for a moment to stop charging and actually go through with the smash. Should they whiff it... they've already recovered, so they use another one and boom, it connects.

And yeah, it helps that they don't have the 1 hit armor when charging smashes.

I'm not saying they'd be unbeatable, no far from it, but I could easily see them becoming walls of stall with cancels in.

Balancing issues with it aside, I have to admit it's a nifty little idea in theory.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I don't see charged smashes used all that often in plus. I wouldn't be opposed to a mechanic like this. It really wouldn't overpower most defenses. Worse case scenario, a few smashes will have to be slightly adjusted. Just add a frame of lag for the cancel.

This is something that should seriously be tried, talking about how broken it could be doesn't help much. A code that cancels smashes with shield button shouldn't be very hard to make at all.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

I don't see charged smashes used all that often in plus. I wouldn't be opposed to a mechanic like this. It really wouldn't overpower most defenses. Worse case scenario, a few smashes will have to be slightly adjusted. Just add a frame of lag for the cancel.

This is something that should seriously be tried, talking about how broken it could be doesn't help much. A code that cancels smashes with shield button shouldn't be very hard to make at all.

Are u kidding? u could just hit with the smash attack in the early frames, and then skip out on the lag by sheilding. WAY too good.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Do you really think I'm suggesting the Smash attack should be something that can be canceled while the attack is being used? Yeah, that would obviously be stupid. What we are talking about here is allowing the attack to be prevented from starting in the first place, by canceling it while it was charging.

Think of it this way: Mario Tennis, an incredibly fun game, had a system where you could charge up a hit beforehand for an extra powerful attack. Knowing that players have options to easily see the charged hit and react to it in a way that puts the person charging the attack at extreme disadvantage, the developers made the charging of the attack cancelable, so the player could make much weaker hitting dive to catch a ball out of range. Developers knew that if the charging couldn't be canceled, players would not often use it (in singles matches).

In Brawl+ characters have so many more options to counter charged smashes: low lag aerials, faster group speed, faster tech rolls, and combos (much more punishment). The ground game has suffered, the new options make charged Smashes obsolete in most instances. To aid the ground game dash canceling was added, but even this is angled to aid non charged smashes.

They need a buff to keep ground and air games somewhat balanced. Either reduce risk, by making them cancelable, or increase reward by making the increase in knockback higher for charged smashes than it usually is for charged smashes. The latter would end up benefiting those with low lag smashes more than those with high lag smashes (who generally also and slow startup for the smashes). Clearly the former solution is the best, and should be strongly considered.

 

[goodoldganon]

The problem is that shielding is soooo good in Brawl+. Either shields would need to come up slower or drop slower for this to be a viable option. (Let's face it, the ability to just SH aerial out of a charged smash would probably be too good for some characters) If (and that's a big if) we tried something like this I'd be up for letting you roll during the charge.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Allowing smashes to cancel into a roll would benefit those with great rolls over those without. Players like Lucario have absurdly effective rolls. The characters seeing the most benefit would end up being the chunk of the cast most people think are strong enough already.

Smash canceling, given set number of frames of lag when canceling would benefit the segment of the caste with slow, laggy smash attacks the most. This is a very good thing, especially for those who depend more on their ground game (Bowser).

The suggested gameplay addition is already present in Smash one way or another, the DK Punch, for example, is very close to what we're suggesting. I hardly think it makes approaching DK impossible. Maybe certain characters have smashes would be more of a problem (Wario?), but please state these characters and the problematic move. Still, though, we should use the DK Punch as a model for how to implement this kind of gameplay addition.

 

[metaXzero]

Allowing smashes to cancel into a roll would benefit those with great rolls over those without. Players like Lucario have absurdly effective rolls. The characters seeing the most benefit would end up being the chunk of the cast most people think are strong enough already.

Smash canceling, given set number of frames of lag when canceling would benefit the segment of the caste with slow, laggy smash attacks the most. This is a very good thing, especially for those who depend more on their ground game (Bowser).

The suggested gameplay addition is already present in Smash one way or another, the DK Punch, for example, is very close to what we're suggesting. I hardly think it makes approaching DK impossible. Maybe certain characters have smashes would be more of a problem (Wario?), but please state these characters and the problematic move. Still, though, we should use the DK Punch as a model for how to implement this kind of gameplay addition.

DK Punch, Samus Charge Shot, Sheik Needles, Lucario Shadow Ball. All those moves are charge attacks that can be canceled instead of just charge and attack, so it's not just a one character trait. While I wouldn't want the ability to keep built-up Smash power after a cancel, those are all pretty similar to this.

Characters with little cool-down may be a problem, but I too can't think of any with little cooldown without having some start-up on them...

 

[Slashy]

My idea, which I failed to post originally, was that you would only be able to cancel at 1/4th charge and 3/4th charge.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Do you really think I'm suggesting the Smash attack should be something that can be canceled while the attack is being used? Yeah, that would obviously be stupid. What we are talking about here is allowing the attack to be prevented from starting in the first place, by canceling it while it was charging.

Think of it this way: Mario Tennis, an incredibly fun game, had a system where you could charge up a hit beforehand for an extra powerful attack. Knowing that players have options to easily see the charged hit and react to it in a way that puts the person charging the attack at extreme disadvantage, the developers made the charging of the attack cancelable, so the player could make much weaker hitting dive to catch a ball out of range. Developers knew that if the charging couldn't be canceled, players would not often use it (in singles matches).

In Brawl+ characters have so many more options to counter charged smashes: low lag aerials, faster group speed, faster tech rolls, and combos (much more punishment). The ground game has suffered, the new options make charged Smashes obsolete in most instances. To aid the ground game dash canceling was added, but even this is angled to aid non charged smashes.

They need a buff to keep ground and air games somewhat balanced. Either reduce risk, by making them cancelable, or increase reward by making the increase in knockback higher for charged smashes than it usually is for charged smashes. The latter would end up benefiting those with low lag smashes more than those with high lag smashes (who generally also and slow startup for the smashes). Clearly the former solution is the best, and should be strongly considered.

Oh, so before the hitbox comes out? If so, that would be fair.

 

[KarateF22]

I dont think this would be a good idea, punishing wiffed attacks is part of the core game... if you essentially remove that risk (sure, its not FULLY removed... but its still being removed in a relatively large chunk) then your completely altering the core of the game different from any previous SSB.

 

[Arkaether]

The difference between a charge move (i.e., DK punch, Lucario/Samus charge shot, etc) and a charged smash is that a charged smash commits you to that action. A chargeable special allows you to charge it, carry it with you, and deploy it whenever you want. A charged smash is an absolute commitment, sacrificing mobility and surprise for power and knockback. If you take away the commitment, you end up with charged smash spam. Why bother with anything else if you can get major damage and knockback with no commitment, no risk, and no punishment? If the opponent doesn't approach, cancel the smash and do whatever. If the opponent approaches and shields, cancel the smash and do whatever. If the opponent tries to rush, hit him with the smash. If the opponent does anything else, cancel the smash and act normally.

This results in a pure win/win situation. How would you like playing Rock-Paper-Scissors if they changed the rules so that Rock wins no matter what?

 

[Sterowent]

Well, the idea sounds good to me on the condition that if the smash were used it would be given a few more frames of lag.

in this way, if you Do commit to the charged smash, you're more likely to be punished than with a non-charged smash, and if you don't commit then the opponent and you will still be on neutral ground. which should be looked at, i'd say...maybe next smash attack that lands is weaker?
actually, that might be interesting to see for combos.
anyway.

if this weren't implemented...at least consider making charged smashes better somehow. faster release of hitboxes maybez? not on the more amazing ones, perhaps...

samus's dsmash charged comes out basically immediately. now that's useful. why can't there be more punishment from smashes that don't truly devistate?
if this technique isn't at least tested, then why can't more smashes be useful by way of quicker charge releases? there are a lot of weak smashes that aren't worth usage. can't they be given their own niche situation to be used?

 

[CyberGlitch]

Oh, so before the hitbox comes out? If so, that would be fair.

Yep

I dont think this would be a good idea, punishing wiffed attacks is part of the core game... if you essentially remove that risk (sure, its not FULLY removed... but its still being removed in a relatively large chunk) then your completely altering the core of the game different from any previous SSB.

I don't think you're looking at things clearly. Whiffed smash attacks are punished, yes, and this happens in gameplay often, but in almost all instances these smash attacks are not charged. Non charged smash attacks would come out just the same, do difference there. You mentioned how important it is for the smash attacks to have a risk, this doesn't change the risk of being punished when you go through with the attack. With risk must come balanced reward. If players aren't charging their smashes ever there is either too much risk or too much reward. Canceling reduces the risk of choosing to charge it, while eliminating reward if they choose to stop charging it.

Would this alter the core of the game? What it does is give player more options, and in general more options means better game balance.

Perhaps I should be made so the smash cannot be canceled during its starting animation (Dedede bringing his hammer up, for example).

 

[metaXzero]

I dont think this would be a good idea, punishing wiffed attacks is part of the core game... if you essentially remove that risk (sure, its not FULLY removed... but its still being removed in a relatively large chunk) then your completely altering the core of the game different from any previous SSB.

If I understand correctly, you can't cancel a non-charged Smash. No charge means it will just come out. You can still punish whiffed Smashes. This only effects charging Smashes.

No other Smash game has such low landing lag without L-cancel, crouching in dashes to alow moving attacks that aren't U-Smashes, dash attacks, and grabs. It's not a good argument against this.

The difference between a charge move (i.e., DK punch, Lucario/Samus charge shot, etc) and a charged smash is that a charged smash commits you to that action. A chargeable special allows you to charge it, carry it with you, and deploy it whenever you want. A charged smash is an absolute commitment, sacrificing mobility and surprise for power and knockback. If you take away the commitment, you end up with charged smash spam. Why bother with anything else if you can get major damage and knockback with no commitment, no risk, and no punishment? If the opponent doesn't approach, cancel the smash and do whatever. If the opponent approaches and shields, cancel the smash and do whatever. If the opponent tries to rush, hit him with the smash. If the opponent does anything else, cancel the smash and act normally.

This results in a pure win/win situation. How would you like playing Rock-Paper-Scissors if they changed the rules so that Rock wins no matter what?

Add the ability to cancel and yes, charged Smashes will see more use. However, I doubt it would become spammy and broken. You still sacrifice mobility and surprise when charging a Smash. The ability to cancel just means if a player sees that their charging Smash won't hit (like the opponent is out of range waiting) they cancel. Neither side gains a real advantage right then.

Your Rock/Paper/Scissors analogy doesn't work. Once you shoot, you can't take it back. But with this, you aren't making whiffed Smashes unpunishable. You are making charged Smashes that aren't released able to cancel.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

If I understand correctly, you can't cancel a non-charged Smash. No charge means it will just come out. You can still punish whiffed Smashes. This only effects charging Smashes.

No other Smash game has such low landing lag without L-cancel, crouching in dashes to alow moving attacks that aren't U-Smashes, dash attacks, and grabs. It's not a good argument against this.


Add the ability to cancel and yes, charged Smashes will see more use. However, I doubt it would become spammy and broken. You still sacrifice mobility and surprise when charging a Smash. The ability to cancel just means if a player sees that their charging Smash won't hit (like the opponent is out of range waiting) they cancel. Neither side gains a real advantage right then.

Your Rock/Paper/Scissors analogy doesn't work. Once you shoot, you can't take it back. But with this, you aren't making whiffed Smashes unpunishable. You are making charged Smashes that aren't released able to cancel.

Look @ this:

OMGWTFHAX!!!!!!!!

I JUST WON DA THREAD!

 

[metaXzero]

Look @ this:

OMGWTFHAX!!!!!!!!

I JUST WON DA THREAD!

Good thing that's NOT what this addition would do eh?

That is an interesting vid though. Wish that happened more or was practical. Then again, Jiggs rarely use their Smashes...

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I don't think we need to promote sloppy move usage.

 

[metaXzero]

A whiffed Smash is still a whiffed Smash. Only thing changing is when charging Smashes. Do they release their Smash (less chance of hitting then a non-charged Smash, but more damage and knockback) or cancel it (no chance of hitting with the attack, but no chance of getting punished for a whiffed attack and maybe the ability to keep your opponent guessing).

If a code ever comes to fruition, we'll see how it plays out. But I just can't see this being broken on paper.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Charged smashes already see enough use as a timed delay and a spacing mechanic. Many Fsmashes for example, draw your body backwards before being unleashed. Peach's Usmash puts you into a crouch of sorts. Aside from that, they're also used for punishing predictable pathing or indecisive players.

My immediate gut feeling is this opening another can of worms with DACUS. I don't remember off the top of my head if any other smash attacks hit before the charge frame occurs, but Snake's Usmash does...

My other feeling is still that sloppy move usage should not be promoted. Smash charge canceling will only put you at an advantage because they'll already be on the defensive trying to get around your attack. Even if they're in a spot where they can outprioritize you completely regardless of whether you cancel or not, then that's just you being sloppy. IMO... just use your smashes more shrewdly and be satisfied.

 

[metaXzero]

Well those uses wouldn't change. Though personally, I rarely see charged Smashes used beyond your last reason. Usually, players will favor either a slight charge or no charge.

No. Snake's U-Smash is the only one that has a hitbox before you charge.

If your opponent forgets that their opponent can cancel and constantly jump in to punish an attack that may or may not come out, then yes the canceling player will be at an advantage. But that's just a player problem of failing to adapt.

One thing I do believe though is that you shouldn't be able to cancel by shielding.

 

[Slashy]

My new suggestion that you trip out of a charging smash, so you are still punishable, but are given invincibility frames.

 

[Revven]

This could make charging Smashes useful and buff mindgame potential.

There's three things you can do with charging Smashes that makes them USEFUL that you probably don't attempt to do at all (which is why you say charging smashes aren't that "good").

Pivot Smashing
Stutter Stepping
DACUS (only for some characters)

Charging smashes are 100% fine with all three of those in the game, and I'm pretty sure there are other smash related techniques I'm not mentioning here/know about. But, those are three examples where charging smashes are MIND GAMING, GOOD, and are USEFUL. (You can charge in all three, ESPECIALLY the third one).

Adding any sense of canceling a smash would make these techniques REALLY FREAKIN' good. I don't care what kind of unorthodox method of punishment you think of that counteracts the idea of spamming the canceling of charging smashes. As it is, Stutter Stepping Sonic's Fsmash is actually quite good (some Sonic's even spam it to hope it hits). It's a silly idea and will just distort balance.

No thanks.

/thread

 

[nightSN]

i think we should actually test it to see the results. lets wait for a code (Y)
and i dont think that DACUS to the smash cancel will be THAT useful. i think it would end up being my luigi's wavedash from melee, super long but not very effective