Smash Bros Direct on April 8th, 3pm PST!!

[Rocket Raccoon]

I don't know about you but prior to the modern era of RPGS, protagonists were mostly silent. They could've easily just went with that.

But they didn't. They took Mario's pretty dully personality and magnified it times ten thousand.

Spoiler

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I don't know about you but prior to the modern era of RPGS, protagonists were mostly silent. They could've easily just went with that.

But they didn't. They took Mario's pretty dully personality and magnified it times ten thousand.

And now we know why.

 

[Zynux]

That quote has been a fantastic rule of thumb since its inception. You must realise who Shigeru Miyamoto actually is right? Is it so farfetched that a creative genius has actual standards?

A bad game is a bad game because it wasn't developed properly. Your logic here is awful.

I am fully 100% aware of who Miyamoto is, and I don't see how him being a gaming legend somehow invalidates him from being wrong sometimes, nor do I even see how that has any relevance to the contents of said quote. I understand the good intentions behind his quote, but I have some problems with the presumptuous nature of the quote:

A delayed game is eventually good

but a rushed game is forever bad.

The reasoning is that if you rush a game, it will be bad as a result, but if you take the time to make it a good game, it will indeed be a good game.

These statements are 100% subjective and not even remotely true. A delayed game will not eventually be "good." Yes, delaying a game can work out the kinks and mishaps of the product, but if the direction of said product is misguided from the beginning then it isn't hardly going to matter. To put it simply: delaying a game can improve a game, but it is hardly absolute that it will, nor should it be relatively believed it will.

Likewise, just because a game is rushed to the market one can't even conclude that the game will be bad. Now, I for one hate it when game is clearly rushed to the market (and that's for a whole different discussion), but to claim that a rushed game is automatically bad and doomed to fail is nothing but assumption.

In short: I have a problem with the absolutes given in the quote and when people use all the time in release date arguments.

(I should note that I generally don't care when Smash 4 releases, I'm just arguing against the quote itself and that it shouldn't be used as frequently as it is, nor for it to be the "end all be all", so to speak)

Talk about the online play, dammit.

And the stage builder.

.... And Ridley.

The direct could definitely use some online info. Brawl's online was horrid; hoped they fixed it this time around. I'm interested in the possibilities on what decent Smash online can offer.

 

[SkywardStriker16]

Plz no return of Snake.

I don't understand the Snake hate...personally, I wouldn't mind having him back in. At least he's unique.
However, I do understand that he might not make it in, and it's fine if he doesn't. Really. But it definitely would be a pleasant surprise.

as long as he isn't revealed over a newcomer

 

[Tree Gelbman]

To me Snake just always seemed like an odd choice because even with his past history. He's pretty much like a modern day Square Enix rep getting in as the gateway third party character.

You're giving attention to the person who stabbed you in the back essentially.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

They released an emulator for PS1 not even a week ago, didn't they?

What I mean't was that the rumor is it might become backwards compatible with ps1 and ps2

But I diden't hear anything yet did not research yet

 

[The Real Gamer]

It's officially Saturday... Just 3 more days till the 8th.

Let the countdown begin.

 

[aldelaro5]

Paper Mario is on the same level as Toon Link, and you see how well received he was.

Thousand Year Door was great, but do we really need more Mario characters?

Koops is the **** though.

Actually, my opinion on him is similar to yours but it goes further: I think that paper has the potential to be a decloned toon link but this just depends on how you interpret it so it's subjective.

 

[EnthusedPanda]

I did some research and the Pikmin and Wonderful 101 directs were within a month of their release. All of the other initial directs for games seem to be within 10 months.

 

[Ryan.]

I hope some mysteries like Zelda and the phantom, and that stage from this week are cleared up as well.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I am fully 100% aware of who Miyamoto is, and I don't see how him being a gaming legend somehow invalidates [Not what that word means [with this sentence structure]] him from being wrong sometimes, nor do I even see how that has any relevance to the contents of said quote. I understand the good intentions behind his quote, but I have some problems with the presumptuous nature of the quote:

These statements is [Plurality? Ha!] 100% subjective and not even remotely true. A delayed game will not eventually be "good." Yes, delaying a game can work out the kinks and mishaps of the product, but if the direction of said product is misguided from the beginning then it isn't hardly going to matter. To put it simply: delaying a game can improve a game, but it is hardly absolute that it will, nor should it be relatively believed it will.

Likewise, just because a game is rushed to the market one can't even conclude that the game will be bad. Now, I for one hate it when game is clearly rushed to the market (and that's for a whole different discussion), but to claim that a rushed game is automatically bad and doomed to fail is nothing but assumption.

In short: I have a problem with the absolutes given in the quote and when people use all the time in release date arguments.

(I should note that I generally don't care when Smash 4 releases, I'm just arguing against the quote itself and that it shouldn't be used as frequently as it is, nor for it to be the "end all be all", so to speak)

I'm hoping your just being obtuse at this point.
He's not saying that every game that is delayed is automatically good, and it's clearly under the assumption that the game has a passable premise and a competent director.
If you want to be super-literal, here's something that you might be able to understand more easily:

It's better to have a delayed, good game [that had time to be made good as a result of the aforementioned delay] than a rushed bad one [that did not have time to be properly developed due to the aforementioned rushing].

 

[Shaya]

I am fully 100% aware of who Miyamoto is, and I don't see how him being a gaming legend somehow invalidates him from being wrong sometimes, nor do I even see how that has any relevance to the contents of said quote. I understand the good intentions behind his quote, but I have some problems with the presumptuous nature of the quote:




These statements are 100% subjective and not even remotely true. A delayed game will not eventually be "good." Yes, delaying a game can work out the kinks and mishaps of the product, but if the direction of said product is misguided from the beginning then it isn't hardly going to matter. To put it simply: delaying a game can improve a game, but it is hardly absolute that it will, nor should it be relatively believed it will.

Likewise, just because a game is rushed to the market one can't even conclude that the game will be bad. Now, I for one hate it when game is clearly rushed to the market (and that's for a whole different discussion), but to claim that a rushed game is automatically bad and doomed to fail is nothing but assumption.

In short: I have a problem with the absolutes given in the quote and when people use all the time in release date arguments.

(I should note that I generally don't care when Smash 4 releases, I'm just arguing against the quote itself and that it shouldn't be used as frequently as it is, nor for it to be the "end all be all", so to speak)


The direct could definitely use some online info. Brawl's online was horrid; hoped they fixed it this time around. I'm interested in the possibilities on what decent Smash online can offer.

Okay. I understand your perspective.

Let's look at it a different way:
There's always context to consider. Never take the impact or power behind someone's words and their affects as just the words themselves. Miyamoto is insanely well known for delaying games, throwing all development thus far into a trash heap and starting again, and when asked about this very widely publicized habit he has, he responded with this. He would rather delay a game and make it perfect rather than be coerced and pressured into releasing a game not yet ready.

Lost in translation. Conveying a meaning between two languages isn't always easy, and different translations can be relatively accurate although saying completely different things. In this case I would highlight an alternative translation of his "quote" that accentuates 'a bad game is bad forever'. In other words, depending on the translator's perspective, one of your issues with his quote is invalidated.

The popularity of the quote heavily stems from how simple and short it is. Blunt and succinct, obviously very easy to remember as it is used quite commonly. It's also who has said it: arguably the greatest video game designer of all time. Your issue is that it isn't multiple paragraphs defining exactly what intent was behind each single word of his sentence. That's ludicrous.

It may become tedious to hear it as an argument for "delays", but its because the logic is completely sound and very realistic. We're upset about a delay because we're overhyped excited kids who want something now now now. Miyamoto wouldn't be the first to coin an allegory about patience, good things grow over time, etc etc etc. Its just in this instance, due to the nintendo context, it's very easy to apply his very relevant words to the argument.

 

[Zynux]

and it's clearly under the assumption that the game has a passable premise and a competent director.

Oh really? Nothing in the quote even remotely hints at this, but w/e. Anyways:

It's better to have a delayed good game than a rushed bad one.

We can definitely agree on this. His quote speaks in far too many absolutes and assumptions for it to even be useful IMO, but I generally agree overall that delaying a game to work out its problems *can* possibility fix some of its issues.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

What's everyone arguing about? Lol

Why do people think this game is being rushed? This isn't Brawl.

 

[Zhadgon]

My prediction of the launch of Smash is in July, three months after this direct and one month after E3.
.n_n.

 

[Shroob]

3 days to go!

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Oh really? Nothing in the quote even remotely hints at this, but w/e.

It's silly to think that he was stating it as a universal law for all interactive media, from TES to Flappy Bird.
There are also the factors of context and it being translated from Japanese which I would explain, but the kind Senator has already done that for me.

We can definitely agree on this. His quote speaks in far too many absolutes and assumptions for it to even be useful IMO

Translation and context, respectively.

What's everyone arguing about? Lol

Why do people think this game is being rushed? This isn't Brawl.

How many times was Brawl delayed, again? Three, right?

 

[Shaya]

What's everyone arguing about? Lol

Why do people think this game is being rushed? This isn't Brawl.

Maybe take the time to read them =). I'd rather posts like that then 1 liner/hashtags

I'm pretty sure Brawl was in development for a very long time. Likely longer than what Smash4 would be. Evidence indicates it was rushed after a drastic design philosophy change from Sakurai. As in, we had game play demos showing us the features and specifics of the game engine in such a way that was radically different to what we ended up seeing 6 months later.

 

[aldelaro5]

not gonna lie, despite brawl being a good game, I have to admit it was rushed at some point and to know that this game is unlikely to get rushed because no sse, it just makes it better than brawl in my eyes.

 

[soviet prince]

so was the platnium guy really tweet this direct and delete it like that one guy said?

 

[Arcanir]

I'm pretty sure Brawl was in development for a very long time. Likely longer than what Smash4 would be. Evidence indicates it was rushed after a drastic design philosophy change from Sakurai. As in, we had game play demos showing us the features and specifics of the game engine in such a way that was radically different to what we ended up seeing 6 months later.

Actually, considering that the game doesn't seem to be getting released anytime in the first half, come this June or July it'll have matched Brawl in development time (October 05-Jan 08 vs. Feb/Mar 12-cur.). So right now, it's looking to not only have more of a workforce behind it, it also looks like it'll have more time dedicated to it then any other Smash game.

So unless something like Brawl comes up again, it doesn't seem like it'd have to be rushed for release this year.

so was the platnium guy really tweet this direct and delete it like that one guy said?

There hasn't been any proof of it outside of word-of-mouth (ex. saved screencaps), so it probably never existed to begin with.

 

[SmashShadow]

Delays happened twice with Brawl I believe and people complain about that game more than anything. Delays may have fixed things like laggy online but it wouldn't have changed the SSE, it wouldn't have changed the pace of the game, tripping would still be there and balance would likely still be off as it's usually the competitive scene that sees the major balance issues.

 

[Jsteel3]

Look honestly this is what we are going to get
A release date: Sometime around August at the earliest and around the Christmas Season at the latest
We Might Get an Overview on Modes like Adventure, Online, etc...
We Might get an overview or at least a reference to game features such as Stage Builder, Music, Trophies, etc...
A Demo might happen.....but probably not.

This right Below is guaranteed
A Newcomer: By likeliness Palutena, Chrom, or something else I just feel its either those two. (Mewtwo does count as a newcomer so he would only be announced on directs or big press releases like any other Newcomer mind you)
The Newcomer of course will have his or her own movie.

 

[smashmachine]

Maybe take the time to read them =). I'd rather posts like that then 1 liner/hashtags

I'm pretty sure Brawl was in development for a very long time. Likely longer than what Smash4 would be. Evidence indicates it was rushed after a drastic design philosophy change from Sakurai. As in, we had game play demos showing us the features and specifics of the game engine in such a way that was radically different to what we ended up seeing 6 months later.

I heard the game was faster prior to the delays, is that true?

 

[Godking123]

I just want to see the wii U adventure mode. **** the 3ds version.. I have nothing against the 3ds one, its just everytime I see a PoTD of one it makes me hate it, since I'd prefer minimal news on it. I want to see if their will be bosses in at the end of adventure mode, that correspond to character's franchises.

 

[aspirin cookie]

Happy things make me FEEL !!

 

[Banjodorf]

Quite frankly no big clunky space-taking SSE mode is the best thing to happen to the new Smash games since no tripping.

However, I'm still hoping that there being two games will not cause any problems in either content limitations for the obviously superior version, or character limitations (not due to space, but development time.)

Though maybe this is why the two games have had a much longer dev cycle.

Hopefully we'll know more Tuesday.

 

[Shaya]

I heard the game was faster prior to the delays, is that true?

Demos didn't have tripping, didn't have cancelled hit stun, didn't have set trajectories for pre-tumble hitstun (that's why you can't DI Dedede or Falco's down throws) and still had L cancelling.

Sakurai's decision to put more emphasis on auto cancelling aerials and allowing for an option out of hit stun weren't terrible decisions, but it definitely feel their implementation was severely rushed. Removing DI on pre-tumble hit stun seems to knee-jerked and not well thought out that it would've been obvious within a very short period of play testing.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You guys do know that the pace of the previous games development have nothing to do with how fast this game is coming out, right?

 

[Snakeyes]

Demos didn't have tripping, didn't have cancelled hit stun, didn't have set trajectories for pre-tumble hitstun (that's why you can't DI Dedede or Falco's down throws) and still had L cancelling.

Sakurai's decision to put more emphasis on auto cancelling aerials and allowing for an option out of hit stun weren't terrible decisions, but it definitely feel their implementation was severely rushed. Removing DI on pre-tumble hit stun seems to knee-jerked and not well thought out that it would've been obvious within a very short period of play testing.

I don't think Sakurai actively tried to put an emphasis on anything at all. Brawl was just a massive knee-jerk attempt to lower the skill ceiling. All the buggy stuff in the game and massively unbalanced characters like Metaknight are further proof that he didn't give a **** about anything but making it more accessible in the laziest way possible.

 

[Banjodorf]

You guys do know that the pace of the previous games development have nothing to do with how fast this game is coming out, right?

Well yeah. (Unless you weren't addressing me.)

However, I think the fact that it's two games might.

 

[DraginHikari]

Gees... when I said I wonder how big the thread will be by Tuesday... but I digress

I would guess we'll probably get some additional information about features they haven't be able to discuss easily through the daily pictures, probably some gameplay footage, and I would assume at least one new character. That's what I expected on a minimum level. As far as what character? I'm not even going to try to do there has been little way to predict the newcomers and I'm not going to start trying to do taht now.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well yeah. (Unless you weren't addressing me.)

However, I think the fact that it's two games might.

It shouldn't be too bad since the 3DS version is a lower resolution port. Stages I guess are the only radically different things.

 

[SmashChu]

22 pages in less than 24 hours?! You are all crazy.

And it's all #teamwhatshisface

Great discussion going on in here.

Being too new is not an issue. Roy in Melee is proof of this.

More that his game released as Smash was being developed. Roy was at least a clone of Marth where clones were needed to expand the roster. That's not the only reason, but it's one.

I don't understand the Snake hate...personally, I wouldn't mind having him back in. At least he's unique.

I think people ignore this, but there is a disdain for too many third parties. I think people want third party characters who have some relation to Nintendo. People don't like just any third party in there. It's kind of like Big Daddy in PSASBR. You're just kind of like "Why the **** is he here." When it's a neat little Nintendo reference, it works. When it isn't, it doesn't. Snake could get away with this as he was the first third party character ever. With that novelty gone, he's not special. Sonic and Megaman work because people feel that there is a connection to these characters and Nintendo. It's also why I don't think there will be that many third party characters.

 

[Zynux]

It's silly to think that he was stating it as a universal law for all interactive media, from TES to Flappy Bird.
There are also the factors of context and it being translated from Japanese which I would explain, but the kind Senator has already done that for me.
Translation and context, respectively.

I understand, but at the same time it seems silly to assume so much (about the "passable premise" and "competent" director part) from such a simple quote. If a quote is so simple, I would think it would not need so much looking into it, no? And likewise, if such context is needed to really understand the quote, then should it really be used so often? (Legit asking, not rhetoric)

With that said, while I still disagree, I completely understand where you and Shaya stand, however.

There's always context to consider. Never take the impact or power behind someone's words and their affects as just the words themselves. Miyamoto is insanely well known for delaying games, throwing all development thus far into a trash heap and starting again, and when asked about this very widely publicized habit he has, he responded with this. He would rather delay a game and make it perfect rather than be coerced and pressured into releasing a game not yet ready.

Understandable, and I agree. So no arguments here (especially for the bolded).

Lost in translation. Conveying a meaning between two languages isn't always easy, and different translations can be relatively accurate although saying completely different things. In this case I would highlight an alternative translation of his "quote" that accentuates 'a bad game is bad forever'. In other words, depending on the translator's perspective, one of your issues with his quote is invalidated.

Your issue is that it isn't multiple paragraphs defining exactly what intent was behind each single word of his sentence. That's ludicrous.

As I was saying to Moped I'm not sure if this helps the quote. I don't believe I was being super literal with the quote, but I was just reading it at face value (because I thought the quote was relatively simple and straight to the point and didn't need much digging). It needing to rely so much on such interpretations for its context (and language!) makes me believe that its not nearly as useful as everyone says it is (especially for arguments). My problem may stem by, while it may be generally a good quote to keep in mind (yes, being pressured to rush games out is definitely not ideal for any developer, I certainly won't disagree with that), using it to prove a point leads to less then satisfying results, as I don't believe it proves anything.

With that said, me calling the quote "nonsensical" was going too far, as there is a slight sense and truth to be taken from it if you look at it from an alternative perspective.

The popularity of the quote heavily stems from how simple and short it is. Blunt and succinct, obviously very easy to remember as it is used quite commonly. It's also who has said it: arguably the greatest video game designer of all time.

FYI, I don't generally care by whom the quote was said by, as it doesn't influence my opinion on the quote at all. Which is why I was taken back when you asked if I knew who Miyamoto was. Of course I know who he is, silly.

Miyamoto is indeed a legend and brilliant developer, but he has his share of silly decisions/ideas/reasonings in the past.

Maybe take the time to read them =). I'd rather posts like that then 1 liner/hashtags

This a thousand times. Discussions and debates beat out hashtag nonsense any day (I just love discussions in general, so I'm glad you guys replied to give this thread something to talk about ). I now understand where you're coming from and see your points better, but I still ultimately feel the quote itself has little place in arguments overall.

Demos didn't have tripping, didn't have cancelled hit stun, didn't have set trajectories for pre-tumble hitstun (that's why you can't DI Dedede or Falco's down throws) and still had L cancelling.

Sakurai's decision to put more emphasis on auto cancelling aerials and allowing for an option out of hit stun weren't terrible decisions, but it definitely feel their implementation was severely rushed. Removing DI on pre-tumble hit stun seems to knee-jerked and not well thought out that it would've been obvious within a very short period of play testing.

Wait, is that true? Huh. Interesting.

 

[Injusticefan14]

TOTODILE SPLASHES IN TO BATTLE!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Snakeyes]

Sakurai trolls in!!!

To me Snake just always seemed like an odd choice because even with his past history. He's pretty much like a modern day Square Enix rep getting in as the gateway third party character.

You're giving attention to the person who stabbed you in the back essentially.

This is why I'm kinda neutral on Snake. I love the character, but it's hard to justify him returning when Kojima is busy making excuses to not put Metal Gear Solid V on the Wii U. "I don't know what to do with the Gamepad" my ass.

 

[N. Onymous]

Metal Gear Solid IV wasn't on the Wii. Point being?

 

[Yonder]

[quote="Chrimbo, post: 16564152, member: 238272"Palutena isn't well-known or demanded enough and Mewtwo is a returning character from Melee, hence why I can see them being shown at the Direct.[/quote]

Err...from what I can see, Palutena is pretty much the #1 most requested character along with Mewtwo. Nonetheless, I can see them being shown at the direct.

 

[Snakeyes]

Metal Gear Solid IV wasn't on the Wii. Point being?

Twin Snakes was on the Wii.