Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[JOE!]

let me get this straight here, this thread is all about taking even the game mechanics of only using 4 moves and crap, but not about treating the characters as if they simply had all the abilities they could possess from their games?

 

[Samochan]

That's pretty irrelevant. Those are rather specific issues, the list of pokemon who cannot feasibly dodge is quite large.
~~~
If we ignore the animations, I'm sure there's some pretty messed up junk that could happen as well.
Notice how many fewer pokemon can learn Detect than Protect. It clearly takes more effort to dodge something than it does to put up a shield (considering that almost everything can learn Protect). Why would they have two dodging moves?
These animations are taken from the actual game too, how are they wrong now? :/

Then how is protect's random wall of light that doesn't even seem imperturbable more proof than the actual game mechanics that tie it with many other mechanics in the pokemon games and the description we've been provided? :/ Light screen and reflect actually make a barrier in front of the poke, you can clearly see it. But then protect is not so clear and then even works the same as detect does and ties with it. The animations on pokemon are not very accurate and really only descriptive of the attack's nature or what it seems to do.

And really, the protect barrier shield evasion thingy could be just different from your normal barriers like screen or reflect, that not even brick break that is said to break all barriers could break through it. Maybe it doesn't even make a barrier that could be touched by normal means or by any normal attacks nor special attacks. We've seen wonkier stuff like trick room. The force fields of landmaster and arwings can be touched via lasers and explosions though and are reduced down by heat damage as well.

But yea, brick break can clearly break through barriers as the description says, EVEN when brick break itself misses a target or you use it against a ghost type pokemon. Not like we can test brick break against other force fields on other games now can we? <_< There's really no evidence against brick break not breaking barriers either and ignoring what the description says is ignoring other descriptions too, thus ignoring how the whole **** game works. >_>

--

Well landmaster's steel properties would prolly make his psychic move only half as effective (as in pokemon), but then again he has a fightning type special move aura sphere that deals double the damage. :3

let me get this straight here, this thread is all about taking even the game mechanics of only using 4 moves and crap, but not about treating the characters as if they simply had all the abilities they could possess from their games?

That is a good question. Pokemon are the only things really limited by this game mechanic, though it's showed they never completely forget any moves (heart scales and all) and can seemingly assimilate endless amount of knowledge and how to about moves you teach them. Not even mew (or alakazam with 5000IQ, better than a supercomputer), can use more than 4 moves when mew on itself learns 92 TM's, hm's, it's normal moves + all move tutor moves, making mew's move array up to 150+. But if it weren't like this, it would be very problematic in makign the actual game work if you had all of those moves at hand (not to mention mew would be broken).

 

[missingnomaster]

Does it really matter what the barrier looks like? The fact is that it stops almost all attacks, with a few exceptions. If you don't think it's a shield, you're gonna have a lot of explaining to do soon...

I think Brick Break bringing Arwing and Samus down to 0 health because of their health systems working similar to a barrier is quite stupid.


EDIT: I actually support pokemon being able to learn more than 4 moves, and have successfully got it passed in the last thread. I just never felt like bringing it up this thread.

 

[Samochan]

Does it really matter what the barrier looks like? The fact is that it stops almost all attacks, with a few exceptions. If you don't think it's a shield, you're gonna have a lot of explaining to do soon...

I think Brick Break bringing Arwing and Samus down to 0 health because of their health systems working similar to a barrier is quite stupid.

It's not a shield per se and never described as such and the only real thing speaking for it's shield status is some wonky graphics and pokemon anime (which doesn't count here), while otherwise description within the game and how it works and ties with the other mechanics is a stronger proof.

I never said brick break drops their health down to zero either. We've seen samus with her zero suit taking lotsa damage, but not dying on instant nonetheless just cause she lacked shield. Shield system basically lets them take a lot more damage than the normal physical structure of their armors would allow. But samus still has her suit and spacies still have their arwings and landmasters. Samus power suit systems would undoubtedly reboot the shielding as it does with her armanent and landmaster is fairly durable lookign even without force fields in place.

 

[missingnomaster]

It's not a shield per se and never described as such and the only real thing speaking for it's shield status is some wonky graphics and pokemon anime (which doesn't count here), while otherwise description within the game and how it works and ties with the other mechanics is a stronger proof.

I never said brick break drops their health down to zero either. We've seen samus with her zero suit taking lotsa damage, but not dying on instant nonetheless just cause she lacked shield. Shield system basically lets them take a lot more damage than the normal physical structure of their armors would allow. But samus still has her suit and spacies still have their arwings and landmasters. Samus power suit systems would undoubtedly reboot the shielding as it does with her armanent and landmaster is fairly durable lookign even without force fields in place.

Really? How is a barrier of energy not a barrier? You really think it makes more sense for it to be a dodge? Have a look at this then:

I'm going to list some moves that are problematic to the dodge theory, and then list some pokemon that could not realistically dodge all of them.

Moves:
Aura Sphere
Swift
Shockwave
Aerial Ace
Magical Leaf
Quick Attack
Extremespeed
Aqua Jet
Vacuum Wave
Surf
Dark Pulse
Discharge
Draco Meteor
Heat Wave
Hyper Voice
Icy Wind
Night Shade
Ominous Wind
Pursuit
Rock Slide
Spacial Rend
Twister

Now for some pokemon which could not be expected to be able to dodge all of these:

Aggron
Armaldo
Bastiodon
Bronzong (especially with Heatproof instead of Levitate)
Dialga
Groudon
Heatran
Hippowdon
Kyogre
Metagross
Muk
Probopass
Registeel
Rhyperior
Slowbro
Slowking
Spiritomb
Steelix

Wailord was not included because Bounce has similar evasive properties to Fly.

Most of these pokemon are so slow that there is no way they could dodge a quick move like Extremespeed. It is unacceptable to say that Protect allows them to do something beyond their capability.

Some like Groudon and Kyogre are not that slow, but are so large that they are too big of a target to dodge some of the larger area affecting attacks.

Again: Protect cannot allow pokemon to do something that is beyond their abilities.

Dig was not taken into account because it is too slow. The pokemon would have to dig before the opponent gets their "turn", which is impossible to support.

Earthquake was not listed because in handhelds there's nothing a shield or normal dodge could do. Detect would work because the pokemon would know that EQ is going to happen, but there just isn't enough time with Protect to dodge it.

I didn't mean Brick Break would kill them, I thought since you were saying they were Protected by a barrier, that you meant that Brick Break would essentially leave them with 1 hp left.

Arwings and land masters' health is called shield in game. (at least in Starfox 64) When the shield is depleted, they take a single shot to be destroyed (similar to most weak enemies).

 

[Samochan]

Aggron nor other rock pokes can't realistically get to the same speed as ninjask does, but apparently they can magically up their speed with rock polish. <_>

Whenever has pokemon made sense? Pokemons themselves are fictional characters and whatnot, we have moving rocks with arms and blobs with faces that can transform into every pokemon in existence and ghosts and gods and...

I rather take the direct description than try beat around the bush and make sense out of it. <_< It doesn't make sense it's a priority move either, neither does it's tie in with detect even though detect is in no way a barrier of any kind. >_> Protect makes the pokemon evade a move (with some exceptions) and... that's it. Surf comes magically out of nowhere and pokemon generate water like it was no biggie, but it's never explained where all that comes from. But hey, I don't think it's out of anyone's league to just evade something if you do it beforehand, protect is a priority move you know. And evasion has really nothing to do with speed on pokemon, lol double team/minimize and sweet scent/defog & sand veil/snow cloack/tangled feet, then brightpowder up/decrease evasion. But they have nothing to do with actual speed of the pokemon, evasion is not even a stat but a hidden one in pokemon game.

"Lock-On, Mind Reader, and No Guard give moves a (100 - move accuracy)% chance to hit through Protect." That kinda seems to me that moves that make you lock on, aka not being able to evade, boost your chances of hitting someone using protect that's meant to evade almost everything. The 100% accuracy move means those of shock wave and all guaranteed to hit moves, said 100% accuracy moves otherwise actually have 99,6% accuracy.

Kinda like how samus has her power suit and shielding, we don't ask how it works or how it makes sense or how speed boosting or darkburst make sense either. <_< Nor star rod or Sonic or...

 

[JOE!]

i still dont get why Mewtwo cannot PSYCHICALLY attack Fox or whoever inside a vehicle. He is psychic, so he should be able to attack their minds, no?
the only exceptions should be if the vehicle specifically has somethign that blocks psionic infiltration, like samus's suit, which tanked attacks like mother Brain's

 

[missingnomaster]

Aggron nor other rock pokes can't realistically get to the same speed as ninjask does, but apparently they can magically up their speed with rock polish. <_>

Whenever has pokemon made sense? Pokemons themselves are fictional characters and whatnot, we have moving rocks with arms and blobs with faces that can transform into every pokemon in existence and ghosts and gods and...

I rather take the direct description than try beat around the bush and make sense out of it. <_< It doesn't make sense it's a priority move either, neither does it's tie in with detect even though detect is in no way a barrier of any kind. >_> Protect makes the pokemon evade a move (with some exceptions) and... that's it. Surf comes magically out of nowhere and pokemon generate water like it was no biggie, but it's never explained where all that comes from. But hey, I don't think it's out of anyone's league to just evade something if you do it beforehand, protect is a priority move you know. And evasion has really nothing to do with speed on pokemon, lol double team and sweet scent, then brightpowder up/decrease evasion. But they have nothing to do with actual speed of the pokemon, evasion is not even a stat but a hidden one in pokemon game.

"Lock-On, Mind Reader, and No Guard give moves a (100 - move accuracy)% chance to hit through Protect." That kinda seems to me that moves that make you lock on, aka not being able to evade, boost your chances of hitting someone using protect that's meant to evade almost everything. The 100% accuracy move means those of shock wave and all guaranteed to hit moves, said 100% accuracy moves otherwise actually have 99,6% accuracy.

Kinda like how samus has her power suit and shielding, we don't ask how it works or how it makes sense or how speed boosting or darkburst make sense either. <_< Nor star rod or Sonic or...

So you're saying that since pokemon makes little sense to begin with, we should take something that makes less sense over something that makes more sense. There are FAR more problems with Protect being a dodge than it being a shield. For one, the only time it is actually shown to be a dodge is in the anime, which you already said doesn't count. Secondly, your primary piece of evidence seems to be a description that can fit EITHER a shield OR a dodge. A shield can be inferred because it is shown to happen. A dodge can only be inferred because a few moves are illogical with it being a shield. Being a dodge would require all pokemon to be able to dodge equally well, an idea that should sound absurd to anyone. Yes, Lock on and Mind Reader are legitimate problems with the shield theory. But Never miss moves like Swift are problems for the dodge theory.
Also, why would Gamefreak make Protect have a shield for every animation if it was supposed to be a dodge?
I love having already done this argument before.

i still dont get why Mewtwo cannot PSYCHICALLY attack Fox or whoever inside a vehicle. He is psychic, so he should be able to attack their minds, no?
the only exceptions should be if the vehicle specifically has somethign that blocks psionic infiltration, like samus's suit, which tanked attacks like mother Brain's

Because this is if Smash characters were true to their games, not if they were true to their anime.

Though their may be something to your arugment with what Mewtwo did in PMD.

 

[Samochan]

So you're saying that since pokemon makes little sense to begin with, we should take something that makes less sense over something that makes more sense. There are FAR more problems with Protect being a dodge than it being a shield. For one, the only time it is actually shown to be a dodge is in the anime, which you already said doesn't count. Secondly, your primary piece of evidence seems to be a description that can fit EITHER a shield OR a dodge. A shield can be inferred because it is shown to happen. A dodge can only be inferred because a few moves are illogical with it being a shield. Being a dodge would require all pokemon to be able to dodge equally well, an idea that should sound absurd to anyone. Yes, Lock on and Mind Reader are legitimate problems with the shield theory. But Never miss moves like Swift are problems for the dodge theory.
Also, why would Gamefreak make Protect have a shield for every animation if it was supposed to be a dodge?
I love having already done this argument before.

It still doesn't seem like a shield to me. :/ Just a funky small energy thing that makes a funny sound.

I still don't see protect being a dodge as problematic, evasion in pokemon has nothing to do with speed stat and every pokemon has normal evasion base unless you do something to it. Then game description and game mechanics work in favor of it being a dodge rather than an actual shield.

Besides what if... protect, being a priority move, kinda predicts your opponents attacks and creates a fuzzy lightshow, then BENDS the attack coming at you along with your pokemon moving out of the way, so it would count as evasion in a way but thing even the slowest pokemon could accomplish, all the while not actually being a shield you can make contact with? The protect light moves in front of the poke, suggesting possible movement unlike screens that just make an unmobile light wall appear as a shield, nor does the protect appear as your typical shield per se, like screens or even barrier would. That's just my theory in how protect works... but as it's not completely a shield nor evasion...

Brick break couldn't make contact with protect shielding if it bends the attack so it cannot make contact. Hail + blizzard & rain + thunder combo could be intercepted but them being afflicted with those boosters, could make it through protect shield and evasion as it does not fully engulf the pokemon and the poke still needs to evade. Mind reader/lock on/no guard make your attack path home in, so prediction would not work on it, but the bending and evasion could still work though not guaranteed. No-miss moves would still ged bended without aforementioned boosters. Non-bendable affliction moves still work through protect, as do weather affliction moves as they cannot be evaded nor does protect shield like that. Protect would also take either lots of pokemon innate energy or concentration to pull off or just be a tough maneuver to do successively, thus it may fail 50% of the time if used right afterwards.

--

Mewtwo can use somewhat ranged telepathic powers and doesn't even need to see his opponents in order to maul them (he doesn't even make an appearance when he stomps chari and blasmatoise).

 

[missingnomaster]

It still doesn't seem like a shield to me. :/ Just a funky small energy thing that makes a funny sound.

I still don't see protect being a dodge as problematic, evasion in pokemon has nothing to do with speed stat and every pokemon has normal evasion base unless you do something to it. Then game description and game mechanics work in favor of it being a dodge rather than an actual shield.

Besides what if... protect, being a priority move, kinda predicts your opponents attacks and creates a fuzzy lightshow, then BENDS the attack coming at you along with your pokemon moving out of the way, so it would count as evasion in a way but thing even the slowest pokemon could accomplish, all the while not actually being a shield you can make contact with? The protect light moves in front of the poke, suggesting possible movement unlike screens that just make an unmobile light wall appear as a shield, nor does the protect appear as your typical shield per se, like screens or even barrier would. That's just my theory in how protect works... but as it's not completely a shield nor evasion...

Brick break couldn't make contact with protect shielding if it bends the attack so it cannot make contact. Hail + blizzard & rain + thunder combo could be intercepted but them being afflicted with those boosters, could make it through protect shield and evasion as it does not fully engulf the pokemon and the poke still needs to evade. Mind reader/lock on/no guard make your attack path home in, so prediction would not work on it, but the bending and evasion could still work though not guaranteed. Non-bendable affliction moves still work through protect, as do weather affliction moves as they cannot be evaded nor does protect shield like that. Protect would also take either lots of pokemon innate energy or concentration to pull off or just be a tough maneuver to do successively, thus it may fail 50% of the time if used right afterwards.

And yet a funky energy thing is still so very different from a dodge, and not a reason to disregard animations.

You have a point about speed, but then how are we supposed to guess at which pokemon are faster? We HAVE to use the speed stat otherwise we might as well assume that all pokemon are equally fast moving (which is what has to be true for the dodge theory anyway).

I'm really not a big fan of fan fiction in this thread, and that's exactly what your description of Protect is...

 

[Samochan]

And yet a funky energy thing is still so very different from a dodge, and not a reason to disregard animations.

You have a point about speed, but then how are we supposed to guess at which pokemon are faster? We HAVE to use the speed stat otherwise we might as well assume that all pokemon are equally fast moving (which is what has to be true for the dodge theory anyway).

I'm really not a big fan of fan fiction in this thread, and that's exactly what your description of Protect is...

You wanted to make sense out of protect. I tried to provide it. >_>

Fuzzy lightshow still doesn't disprove game description and how protect works within the game. :/ You argued it was a shield and I said it was not, thus I tried to make sense out of it not actually being a barrier brick break should be able to break (and in game mechanics, it wouldn't be gamebreaking or hard to implement either, would be very good actually when someone protects but you brick break em instead), but something AKIN to evasion but using some sorta shielding lightshow aid to do it.

Speed stat not used in conjuction with evasion makes sense to me. Someone might be able to run a marathon really fast... but does this same person have the reflexes to dodge an attack of sorts? Or is this same person agile or flexible enough to do so? In order to evade a bullet to your head for example, you'd only need to move your head and not your whole body around.

The pokemons that can learn protect may still be clunky and clumsy and slow, but I do believe they have the ability to dodge stuff if they really want to, if they have the ability to do more wondrous stuff and things that make even less sense. It makes sense protect would be a priority move if prediction was used to evade things too and learnign how to protect yourself well with evasion is a thing one needs to learn in order to use it to the fullest. Protect also has more priority than priority attack oves like extremespeed. (protect is +3, ES is +1. Pursuit is the fastest in priority +7)

--

On the other hand, I'd love to type some fanfiction from some of these matchups, but I'm lazy. They'd never be completed.

 

[missingnomaster]

You wanted to make sense out of protect. I tried to provide it. >_>

Fuzzy lightshow still doesn't disprove game description and how protect works within the game. :/ You argued it was a shield and I said it was not, thus I tried to make sense out of it not actually being a barrier brick break should be able to break (and in game mechanics, it wouldn't be gamebreaking or hard to implement either, would be very good actually when someone protects but you brick break em instead), but something AKIN to evasion but using some sorta shielding lightshow aid to do it.

Speed stat not used in conjuction with evasion makes sense to me. Someone might be able to run a marathon really fast... but does this same person have the reflexes to dodge an attack of sorts? Or is this same person agile or flexible enough to do so? In order to evade a bullet to your head for example, you'd only need to move your head and not your whole body around.

The pokemons that can learn protect may still be clunky and clumsy and slow, but I do believe they have the ability to dodge stuff if they really want to, if they have the ability to do more wondrous stuff and things that make even less sense. It makes sense protect would be a priority move if prediction was used to evade things too and learnign how to protect yourself well with evasion is a thing one needs to learn in order to use it to the fullest.

--

On the other hand, I'd love to type some fanfiction from some of these matchups, but I'm lazy. They'd never be completed.

You said yourself that things in pokemon make no sense, then, you try and offer an explanation for Protect that isn't shown to be what happens.
The game description can go EITHER WAY.
"Hey I used a shield to block your attack, thus evading damage"
"Hey I just dodged your attack, evading damage"
The description is not helping the dodge theory.

By any chance have you seen Protect in PBR? It is so obviously a force field/barrier/shield there it's crazy.

Your example with speed only covers a few examples. How is Shuckle dodging Extreme Speed? Swift? EARTHQUAKE?

Detect is the one that uses prediction. Putting up a shield really takes no prediction, which is why even pokemon like Ratatta can use it.

Being a priority move also makes it simpler for a shield.

 

[Samochan]

You said yourself that things in pokemon make no sense, then, you try and offer an explanation for Protect that isn't shown to be what happens.
The game description can go EITHER WAY.
"Hey I used a shield to block your attack, thus evading damage"
"Hey I just dodged your attack, evading damage"
The description is not helping the dodge theory.

By any chance have you seen Protect in PBR? It is so obviously a force field/barrier/shield there it's crazy.

Your example with speed only covers a few examples. How is Shuckle dodging Extreme Speed? Swift? EARTHQUAKE?

Detect is the one that uses prediction. Putting up a shield really takes no prediction, which is why even pokemon like Ratatta can use it.

Being a priority move also makes it simpler for a shield.

>_>
Protect: (protect)
"It enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession. "

Detect: (All-seeing)
"It enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession. "

You're not evading damage, but it specifically states you evade all attacks. Nothing about damage is mentioned. Maybe the way of using protect is easier, cause is sorta has a shield aiding instead of simply predicting, thus more pokemon learning it. But both moves still work quite the same and there's no distinguishing barrier protect forms, otherwise brick break for example, would break past it. A normal shield would also protect against weather moves, bit it does not.

Protect and detect again, are priority moves. Extremespeed is only +1, while both moves are +3. It does not change well out of turn based, but it's there.

Protect in no way disproves brick break's ability to break barriers. The descriptions or game mechanics do not contradict each other, but complement. The only thing is graphical, which is nothing sort of accurate in the first place, especially if you look at other attacks in pokemon. Brick break's is a hand doing a karate chop like motion, for example, even if your pokemon lacked hands resembling human's. <_<

 

[PowerBomb]

Interesting to note that the most powerful Pokemon in PMD1, Mewtwo, gets easily overpowered in this one dungeon. Not the level 1 dungeons, but this one other, incredibly hard one.

Actually, the only thing keeping every player-controlled Pokemon in that game from completely getting eradicated later in the story are the supply of revive items available. Seriously... try getting through Lugia's dungeon without any Reviver Seeds...

EDIT: Brick Break will only ever break through Light Screen and Reflect, Samochan. Otherwise, it would bypass the Barrier defense boost and lawl at Protect. The actual, in-game effect removes Light Screen and Reflect. Nothing else. Protect is portrayed to be a shield in front of the user, but Detect is just...well, the animation is a bit 'imagination'.

 

[Samochan]

Interesting to note that the most powerful Pokemon in PMD1, Mewtwo, gets easily overpowered in this one dungeon. Not the level 1 dungeons, but this one other, incredibly hard one.

Actually, the only thing keeping every player-controlled Pokemon in that game from completely getting eradicated later in the story are the supply of revive items available. Seriously... try getting through Lugia's dungeon without any Reviver Seeds...

But wasn't it also a fact that you could do infinite damage in PMD? =D

But really, if it weren't so, it wouldn't make a good game. Heck, arceus and it's dragon fellas can be overpowered in battle too.

Though the dungeons have like 99 floors and tons of pokemons in each rofl, that's gotta take a toll on anyone crossing it.

Barrier is a stat up move, not like brick break can lower stats like defence. >_> But it can remove shields already in existence like screens. They also exist in game unlike barrier which disappears after use but stays in your stat ups, it doesn't effect the environment in any way.. Besides light screen and reflect combined work much like a force field, why wouldn't brick break then break through such barriers if it's said to break through all barriers? (and note protect isn't described as a barrier, ofc brick break won't affect it then lol). Why should we limit pokemon again cause we take this into a different setting?

Anything else besides a fuzzy lightshow that actually contradicts brick break's ability to break barriers? >_> The game mechanics and descriptions say otherwise.

And last time I checked, we do seem to accept descriptions as canon, kinda like how samus speed booster is described as being invincible and things like that. Or how sonic is described to run at super sonic speeds while definitely not shown to run at such speeds. >_>

Heck, moves differ graphically from game to game. In handhelds, cross chop actually makes a chopping motion, while on PBR, your poke runs to your opponent and punches. >_>;

 

[missingnomaster]

>_>
Protect: (protect)
"It enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession. "

Detect: (All-seeing)
"It enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession. "

``````You're not evading damage, but it specifically states you evade all attacks. Nothing about damage is mentioned. Maybe the way of using protect is easier, cause is sorta has a shield aiding instead of simply predicting, thus more pokemon learning it. But both moves still work quite the same and there's no distinguishing barrier protect forms, otherwise brick break for example, would break past it. A normal shield would also protect against weather moves, bit it does not.

Protect and detect again, are priority moves. Extremespeed is only +1, while both moves are +3. It does not change well out of turn based, but it's there.

Protect in no way disproves brick break's ability to break barriers. The descriptions or game mechanics do not contradict each other, but complement. The only thing is graphical, which is nothing sort of accurate in the first place, especially if you look at other attacks in pokemon. Brick break's is a hand doing a karate chop like motion, for example, even if your pokemon lacked hands resembling human's. <_<

First thing: picky with word choice.
```` thing: evading the attack is the same thing. You evade the attack by blocking it with a shield.
Bold thing: Really? Since when does holding an umbrella out in front of you keep you dry?
If Protect was a dodge, then since Shuckle can learn it, and can use it to dodge Extreme Speed, then Shuckle should be able to learn Extreme Speed, since Shuckle is obviously such a speedy pokemon.
Brick Break still fails against Protect, proving its description to be exaggerating, such at Jet Kirby's in game description. (Note: Metal Kirby is supported by gameplay)

 

[JOE!]

@misingno:

I am not even mentioning the anime, stop putting words in my mouth

All i am saying is because he is a psychic, he attacks by reaching out with his mind. This is not physical, and cannot simply be deflected by steel. What exactly , through logic alone here, is stopping mewtwo or any other psychic from attacking Fox directly, as their ships do not offer defense vs Psychic probing.

Seeing as you know, Andross (and I think Krystal?) were able to talk to fox just fine when he was in a vehicle, and they didnt come up on the comm.

 

[Samochan]

First thing: picky with word choice.
```` thing: evading the attack is the same thing. You evade the attack by blocking it with a shield.
Bold thing: Really? Since when does holding an umbrella out in front of you keep you dry?
If Protect was a dodge, then since Shuckle can learn it, and can use it to dodge Extreme Speed, then Shuckle should be able to learn Extreme Speed, since Shuckle is obviously such a speedy pokemon.
Brick Break still fails against Protect, proving its description to be exaggerating, such at Jet Kirby's in game description. (Note: Metal Kirby is supported by gameplay)

But how would protect protect from all attacks, from all around the pokemon then if it were just a shield in front of the poke like it's shown to be? =) And why would detect do the exact same thing, with exact same description too without such shield in place? Why would they work in tandem too if not having the same exact effects? Heck, protect and detect both fail if they somehow go last in that turn. Why would a simple shield fail if you happened to go last?

If brick break is exaggerating, I guess every description here is exaggerating too. Bowser is obviously not invulnerable cause peach beam > invulnerability and so on. Brick break at least breaks barriers like it's supposed to and protect isn't described as such, so I don't see why BB should break protect when it's not such barrier in the first place, while move barrier is a stat up move and not field effect. If this was an oversight, I'm fairly sure gamefreak would have fixed it ages ago, protect was in use since second gen and has seen many changes since.

Evasion =/= speed again.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

If anyone cares, here's a list of everything I can think of that Ganondorf's shown:

LoZ:

Teleportation (boss battle)
Invisibility (boss battle)
Fire manipulation (boss battle)

LttP:

Indirect possession (Agahnim)
Brainwashing (castle soldiers)
Summoning of insignificant creatures (boss battle)

OoT:

Ridiculously powerful curses (Deku Tree, Jabu Jabu)
Revival of extinct species (Dodongos)
Revival of dead, mindlessly (Redeads)
Creation of a phantom clone (Phantom Ganon)
Telepathy (Phantom Ganon Cutscene)
Tearing open holes in dimensions (Phantom Ganon Cutscene)
Revival of dead, retaining mind (Volvagia)
Water manipulation (Zora’s Domain)
Breaking seals (Bongo Bongo)
Levitation of other objects (Ganon’s Castle)
Creation of magical barriers (Ganon’s Castle)
Firing rays of pure darkness (pre-battle cutscene)
Changing rooms around him (pre-battle cutscene)
Flight (boss battle)
Manipulation of light (boss battle)
Ability to deflect magic (boss battle)
Telekinesis (post-battle cutscene)
Transformation (Ganon)
Immortality (implied by him after battle, proven throughout other games)

OoA/S

Nothing new

WW:

Breaking of gods’ seals (Pre-WW)
Invincibility to all but the Master Sword, and himself (stated by him, proven directly afterward)
Ability to detect other Triforce pieces (stated by him, proven as he says it)
Ability to teleport others (Hyrule Castle cutscene)
Ability to create illusions of himself and others (Pre-Puppet Ganon cutscene)

FSA:

Nothing new

TP:

Ability to kill immortal beings (Sage of Water)
Can survive in Twilight Realm (time period between execution and TP)
Mutation of people (indirectly, through Zant)
Growth and shrinking (indirectly, through Zant)
General corruption and deterioration of everything around him (Hyrule Castle)
Direct possession (Zelda)
Creation and manipulation of electricity (Puppet Zelda)
Creation of a new body (post-Ganon cutscene)

 

[_clinton]

Clinton, Ganon had to spend years figuring out how to get the Triforce. He had to plan everything out years in advance with every detail in mind. In order to get there he had to be cunning and powerful. He was the first person to do it, yes. But you know how long that thing had been sitting there? No, I don't either, but it was a long time. Plenty of others had their chance. Ganon truly earned it, he didn't just race for it.

Ganon had to spend years figuring out how to get the triforce…because the gods just didn’t want to give it away…it was hidden…that is fine IMO…but you are aware that many of the characters in this thread have to work for things as well…and such things were their own powers…not just following “a map for buried treasure” that belongs to something else…

Most of the other characters in this thread get their powers from elsewhere as well. Samus got hers from the Chozo, Ike from goddesses, Bowser from wherever he stole the Star Rod from. If we took away things that people weren't born with or didn't teach/make themselves, Ganon would still be way high up on the list.

Would you actually please read the argument I'm trying to make about Ganondorf's power...I’m sick of people thinking my arguments are saying something else than what I mean…

Only until the gods want to take it away...and I'm not saying he wouldn't have it...I'm just saying that is where most of his power is from...and that plenty of other characters in this thread have powers like that or more...such has having their own powers that they can call theirs truly...

I'm not saying that he isn't going to get the part of the triforce for the 20th time…I’m saying that Plenty of other characters in this thread have powers like that or more

What makes you guys think they couldn’t harm him…when they are blessed/all ****ing powerful in several ways as well?

The Ing aren't necessarily "evil".

Yeah...they are a bit better

Regardless whether or not they have to "store energy", Sonic gets to come to these battles fully prepared, so they're already charged.

Various people in this thread have said that Ness/Lucas start off bare...why doesn't Sonic?

Yes, PK is an umbrella term, but Ness hasn't performed some of the things included under that umbrella term, and we can't assume that he can.

He performs TK and telepathy…and again…you don’t see Ness/Lucas fight at all except while under this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitler4e1mm02?from=Main.ScrewTheRulesIHavePlot
That rule is the real reason why they are being limited in this thread…because people don’t get the simple fact that the games they are from have different rules than what their canon shows…

Why does it matter what Samus can do if Ganon can disable people in an instant, with no chance of winning/defending/etc.?

How does that work with something that has an unlimited energy source that works like the triforce? (I'm talking about the Chaos Emeralds BTW)

In pretty munch any game he appeard? For example: In TP he could fool Zant into believing he is a god (which he isn´t but that proves how powerful he is) or in Attp he could rule the Sacred Realm like a god.

Yeah… because he is using the god’s power…which is the thing that beat the fused shadow as well…how about that?

It’s not like Zant was aware of every little thing that is going on in the “light” world…

And of course he ruled the sacred realm like a god…he was using a god’s power…

The back story of WW and the story the king tells you in this game proves it that the gods saw Ganon as the greatest treat in the world since they flooded the entire land (Hyrule) and tried to seal away his power with the Master Sword.

Fun fact…Ganondorf didn’t want the gods to flood the world…boy I love how he stopped it huh? And he sure is able to resist the master sword’s power huh?

Also Midna used the Fused Shadows against Ganondorf which I´m sure has a very great power. Ganondorf however overcame this power.

Again…the fused shadow has lost once to the power of the gods…why would this time be any different…
And even then…it’s not like Minda didn’t put up a fight…what’s that say?

(The Execution Sword was holy but after Ganondorf activated his ToP it was nothing to him).

The Execution Sword was hardly holy IMO…the sages didn’t know Ganondorf had the ToP in case you didn’t get that…they pretty much flat out say that the gods played “a cruel trick”

Because I told you that he assembled the full Triforce somehow before his dead or something else.
In OOA/OOS it is stated that the full Triforce was kept in a shrine. That means Ganon couldn´t have the ToP at this moment because he was dead.

Link is only at those lands by the will of the triforce in the 1st place…hell one of the theories for that game is that Link is in the triforce…so what does that say?

In Attp he was corrupted by the magic of the Dark World (the world he wished with the Triforce). Therefor he turned into the beast he is.

That happened in OoT as well…saying that he can turn it on/off willingly (note the final fight)

Your wrong. The Triforce of Power and it´s power is a part of Ganondorf. As long as the ToP is in his hands all the powers belongs to him. The gods cant simply take it away. If they could they would have done it in WW. Ganondorf claimed it and is now part of him.

The gods could if they wanted to…but what makes you think they really care about humans anyway? They made far more worlds than Hyrule…
Oh and fun fact…the full triforce is only a small fraction of the gods power…did you know that?

Topic: Has Falco the Landmaster as well? If yes he wins.

Yes…because Ness has never dealt with future tanks…I mean…his foes are just using sci-fi level technology comparable to that of the Chozo’s level…and are deadly with PK as well…

Ness is like Mewtwo but with everything better (except for Mewtwo's status moves like Embargo)

He has access to the best status affect moves in EB...and Lucas does as well actually when you think about it...

Though Ness would likely have more trouble with the Arwing than a Landmaster since he doesn't have a failsafe way to hit airborne opponents (I don't think, and _clinton will definitely be disagreeing with me here)

Ness/Lucas fight foes that fly and use laser beams and fly quite freely...as in logically:

They would have no reason to get close to Ness/Lucas...but they can hit them with the bat/blunt object they have anyway...

So...what does that say? Other than the fact that Lucas’ loss to MK is still BS of course…

Forgot to reply to this:

But that doesn´t mean anything. If the weapon or attack can´t repel evil Ganondorf will laughing his *** off. It doesn´t matter if the weapon is holy,sacred or blessed by a god or anything else if it doesn´t repel evel.

What makes you think that it something that is holy doesn’t work on “evil” the way you just talked about the master sword…

Would you actually look up what the term “holy/sacred” is in the 1st place?

 

[Ganonsburg]

Clinton, I wasn't addressing the others having greater powers in the sentences that you quoted, I was addressing your accusation that he doesn't deserve the Triforce and that he didn't earn it.

They can't harm him because he's invincible and immortal. Only Zelda can stop him (paralyze with light arrows) and only the Links can even hurt him (Master Sword, only weapon mentioned thus far that is blessed AND designed to repel evil). Period. We've said this.

 

[missingnomaster]

@misingno:

I am not even mentioning the anime, stop putting words in my mouth

All i am saying is because he is a psychic, he attacks by reaching out with his mind. This is not physical, and cannot simply be deflected by steel. What exactly , through logic alone here, is stopping mewtwo or any other psychic from attacking Fox directly, as their ships do not offer defense vs Psychic probing.

Seeing as you know, Andross (and I think Krystal?) were able to talk to fox just fine when he was in a vehicle, and they didnt come up on the comm.

Except that the only time Mewtwo has came close to displaying the powers you mention is in the anime. Otherwise you are just trying to use real life definitions to give him things that aren't shown in game.

The thing about Andross is a good point though, so the few telepathic powers Mewtwo actually does have should be able to work directly on Fox.

But how would protect protect from all attacks, from all around the pokemon then if it were just a shield in front of the poke like it's shown to be? =) And why would detect do the exact same thing, with exact same description too without such shield in place? Why would they work in tandem too if not having the same exact effects? Heck, protect and detect both fail if they somehow go last in that turn. Why would a simple shield fail if you happened to go last?

If brick break is exaggerating, I guess every description here is exaggerating too. Bowser is obviously not invulnerable cause peach beam > invulnerability and so on. Brick break at least breaks barriers like it's supposed to and protect isn't described as such, so I don't see why BB should break protect when it's not such barrier in the first place, while move barrier is a stat up move and not field effect. If this was an oversight, I'm fairly sure gamefreak would have fixed it ages ago, protect was in use since second gen and has seen many changes since.

Evasion =/= speed again.

You really think a dodge would be fool proof as well?
Detect protecting from the same things could be programming simplicity, though this issue isn't important anyway, as Protect is more influenced by what it actually is shown to be, than how similar moves behave.
Protect failing if you go last is because of the way turns work. It lasts the entire turn, but if the opponent has already made their move, then Protect would have no point.
I'll admit, Brick Break is a valid flaw against shield theory, though it's still better than having pokemon like Shuckle, Snorlax, and Wailord speeding all over the place to dodge fast attacks like ExtremeSpeed.
And you still haven't answered how a dodge would let you avoid an attack that can only be avoided by going out of range....
And there's still the fact that Protect is -always- shown as a barrier of sorts. If this was an oversight, I'm fairly sure gamefreak would have fixed it ages ago, protect was in use since second gen and has seen many changes since.

 

[_clinton]

Clinton, I wasn't addressing the others having greater powers in the sentences that you quoted, I was addressing your accusation that he doesn't deserve the Triforce and that he didn't earn it.

It's just that anyone could have got it if they knew about it...

They can't harm him because he's invincible and immortal. Only Zelda can stop him (paralyze with light arrows) and only the Links can even hurt him (Master Sword, only weapon mentioned thus far that is blessed AND designed to repel evil). Period. We've said this.

Really...please stop BSing the Zelda timeline...for one...besting a god like some of the characters I brought up is by far better than being a leach...

And as for Repel evil...lets break that meaning down...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/repel
One of the definitions of repel is To offer resistance to; fight against
Do I really have to address what evil is?

So...how does the list of characters I brought up not do that and more?

-The seven star children have a record with most of them fighting and killing various demons other pure evil stuff
-I'm aware of the Zelda series...
-Samus...phazon just seems so much better than some stock term evil...and the X seem like pure evil as well...
-Pit...killed an evil being that outpowered a god
-Kirby has killed his fare share of evil beings...
-MK is packing a holy sword or two that has been used on evil beings
-Fox killed a being that became a demon god...with help from Falco
-C. Falcon...killed the things that planed to make him into "the Devil" and his canon stats that he is part of the balance of Yin-yang
-Pokemon trainer is packing god powered pokemon
-Mewtwo is on god level power...I mean he is a more powerful clone of Mew...
-Marth is packing god stuff...that has beat...demon stuff
-Ike helped best a 1/2 power "the one god" that wanted to **** all of the world
-Ness/Lucas have "the one god" power that can be used for evil or whatever else they want...how would they lose to a being that pretty much is not even at devil power?
-I need to hunt for info on Snake...
-Sonic...has ****ed evil on god level power...

Except that the only time Mewtwo has came close to displaying the powers you mention is in the anime.

Sorry...but by this point in the games Mewtwo has ****ed with time and space and more...he has passed the anime level he had...in fact the anime does a piss poor job at showing off what is talked about in the games IMO...

 

[BSP]

@Clinton

Ness/Lucas don't start off bare...everyone comes to these battles fully prepared.

 

[missingnomaster]

Sorry...but by this point in the games Mewtwo has ****ed with time and space and more...he has passed the anime level he had...in fact the anime does a piss poor job at showing off what is talked about in the games IMO...

I really hope you're talking about PMD. I haven't played any PMD games, so I can only guess.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Clinton, by repel evil the games mean SPECIFICALLY MADE AND DESIGNED TO STOP EVIL. Any weapon can stop evil, but the ones that defeat Ganon have to be specifically blessed to do so. In Wind Waker the Master Sword is completely useless until the sages pray for the goddesses to give it back its power.

I don't think we've made it clear. Ganon fully earned what he has (as much as a thief can, anyway). He raised and led armies to get it, he spent countless years thinking and planning and waiting for the right moment, and so on. He didn't just walk up to it. It's not like just anyone could have done it.

Even if he was just the first one to stumble across it as you say, so what? He still gets it. He had it in the games. No point in arguing about it. He had it in the games, so he gets it here. Not to mention every single one of those people you listed you blew completely out of proportion. I don't even know why I'm talking to you, you're just going to misread what I'm telling you again.

 

[_clinton]

I really hope you're talking about PMD. I haven't played any PMD games, so I can only guess.

Dude...look at what the moves he can do in the games imply...just from his level ups…

-Biological healing (recovery)
-can cripple his foes (disable)
-can see into the future (future sight)
-control over the weather (mist)
-can have control/screw around with his foes (confusion…guard swap and power swap...psych up…they all imply it)
-can make shields/shield himself from mental assault (Amnesia…Barrier, safeguard)
-can lock on his foe...as in they can't hide…mentally or physically (Me First…Swift…Miracle Eye…Aura Sphere)
-has TK (psychic)

Ness/Lucas don't start off bare...everyone comes to these battles fully prepared.

Well...I hope you can convince everyone else here...I didn't have much luck with it...

In Wind Waker the Master Sword is completely useless until the sages pray for the goddesses to give it back its power.

Because it wasn't "holy" at the time...it lost that part of it...that is what they are implying by that issue with the master sword...it was only a normal sword really...

It's not like just anyone could have done it.

Fun fact...it was considered a legend...why not look up what that means...

Oh and I hardly consider him earning everything he ever wanted...he was born into it...only male every 100 years BS...

Not to mention every single one of those people you listed you blew completely out of proportion.

How? The games say it...not me...I'm only repeating what they said...

Mario and Wario has been seen to **** ancient all powerful demons...how is that worse than Ganondorf? And how is someone who bests a god of some level...going to lose to a being that is only borrowing a small amount of god power? Because the Triforce...fun fact...is still is weaker than the full gods that made it...

 

[BSP]

You were referring to items, right Clinton? Ness/Lucas get to come fully stocked. I'm pretty sure everyone agreed to that.

@current matchup

Ness is like M2, but everything better. Falco is going to have serious trouble getting past Ness' shields and defenses. He can destroy whatever vehicle falco uses with Rockin, then wait out Falco's barriers (Ness is a tank, he will survive), then own him with Rockin. If falco shoots ness, he's shooting himself since Ness has counters, unlike M2.

 

[Samochan]

You really think a dodge would be fool proof as well?
Detect protecting from the same things could be programming simplicity, though this issue isn't important anyway, as Protect is more influenced by what it actually is shown to be, than how similar moves behave.
Protect failing if you go last is because of the way turns work. It lasts the entire turn, but if the opponent has already made their move, then Protect would have no point.
I'll admit, Brick Break is a valid flaw against shield theory, though it's still better than having pokemon like Shuckle, Snorlax, and Wailord speeding all over the place to dodge fast attacks like ExtremeSpeed.
And you still haven't answered how a dodge would let you avoid an attack that can only be avoided by going out of range....
And there's still the fact that Protect is -always- shown as a barrier of sorts. If this was an oversight, I'm fairly sure gamefreak would have fixed it ages ago, protect was in use since second gen and has seen many changes since.

But if it were an oversight, why would they keep describing protect as a way for pokemon to evade all attacks instead of forming a barrier to protect against all attacks, if the graphical aspect actually points toward it being a barrier? :/

The real barrier moves on pokemon, described to form a wall/shield (screens + barrier) have all created a wall of light with different color graphically, that's what they have in common. Protect differs quite much from this.

And isn't pokemon speeding all over the place with extremespeed otherwise illogical too? And every other thing? Non-psychic pokemon creating illusions/moving so fast as to create illusions (that stick)? Among tons of other illogical things in pokemon. You can't just draw a line in there somewhere if it benefits you and your arguments, hey. >_> A starly can double team so much you can't touch it, yet it's speed stays the same. Or you could sweet scent someone so much their evasion drops to -6, but they still move before you do if faster. And I still dunno what brightpowder(lightpowder) actually does to boost evasion... powder the arena to make it hazy/blind your opponent? Then if you've paralysed and everything, if you just use a higher priority move, you will still move faster than your opponent. =D

I still stick with the prediction & dodge with the possible aid of untouchable/incorporeal shield thingy, cause in order to protect yourself completely, you first gotta predict your opponent and by being a priority move, it accomplishes that. It's not foolproof as we well know, but the shield thing alongside evasion could evade these no-miss moves in some way, some half-shield itself won't get the job done in any case.

It's not that I bother too much with how protect mechanics work, cause they are just there and it works like it works without me or you trying to find explanation to it. But I'm not willing to accept protect as proof for brick break being unable to break through things like force fields, when it has been shown it certainly can do so and protect in this case does not make it invalid or contradict brick break's effects or description, as protect has no real base to base this shield thingy to cept some graphical thingy which are semi-accurate at best. Not forgetting protect's graphics would contradicts it's description and therefore make it invalid like pokedex is considered an invalid source. :/ Protect & detect descriptions and effects being exacly the same is not coincidence.

 

[missingnomaster]

Dude...look at what the moves he can do in the games imply...just from his level ups…

-Biological healing (recovery)
-can cripple his foes (disable)
-can see into the future (future sight)
-control over the weather (mist)
-can have control/screw around with his foes (confusion…guard swap and power swap...psych up…they all imply it)
-can make shields/shield himself from mental assault (Amnesia…Barrier, safeguard)
-can lock on his foe...as in they can't hide…mentally or physically (Me First…Swift…Miracle Eye…Aura Sphere)
-has TK (psychic)

So, because Mewtwo can do though moves, he can now suddenly do slightly related things that he has NEVER been shown to do?

 

[_clinton]

So, because Mewtwo can do though moves, he can now suddenly do slightly related things that he has NEVER been shown to do?

How about you tell me how those things I listed aren't those things...I mean...I just love how you don't think the move barrier isn't a shield...

You were referring to items, right Clinton? Ness/Lucas get to come fully stocked.

Items are iffy with me actually...It's easier to post this though than try and explain everything again though:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitler4e1mm02

And the main thing I was talking about was and disagreeing with dealt with shields and them starting off with them...

Ness/Lucas is like M2, but everything better.

Just needed to fix your post right here...

 

[BSP]

That list is legit, as long as "control the weather" is limited to creating mist, since that's what M2 actually does. He can do the moves you mentioned, but he can't control his foe.

 

[_clinton]

That list is legit, as long as "control the weather" is limited to creating mist, since that's what M2 actually does. He can do the moves you mentioned, but he can't control his foe.

Actually TMs show that Mewtwo can do more than just create mist...and I never said he could control the foe...I said he can influence his foe's actions easily...which he can...because other TMs show it pretty well...

 

[Samochan]

It might be a formidable list, if not for the fact that every other low level pokemon not even psychic type can learn many of those or all. >.>

Besides moves in pokemon aren't much too great even if they seem so, just look at spacial rend and roar of time which do nothing. Then judgement. >_>; Heck, creating flames and water from empty space are staples for non-fire or water pokemons. <_>

 

[PowerBomb]

Dude...look at what the moves he can do in the games imply...just from his level ups…

-Biological healing (recovery)
-can cripple his foes (disable)
-can see into the future (future sight)
-control over the weather (mist)
-can have control/screw around with his foes (confusion…guard swap and power swap...psych up…they all imply it)
-can make shields/shield himself from mental assault (Amnesia…Barrier, safeguard)
-can lock on his foe...as in they can't hide…mentally or physically (Me First…Swift…Miracle Eye…Aura Sphere)
-has TK (psychic)

How about you tell me how those things I listed aren't those things...I mean...I just love how you don't think the move barrier isn't a shield...

Barrier isn't a shield, it just buffs defense. Psychic isn't throwing opponents everywhere; Mewtwo is limited by his move choices and the effects of those moves. How the **** does Amnesia and Safeguard guard from mental assault? What are you talking about? Amnesia raises special defense, which guards against special attacks. Sure, maybe this includes mental assaults, but that hasn't happened in Pokemon before. Safeguard protects against status affects only. Mental assaults? Yeah, sure.

OH, AURA SPHERE
LUCARIO NOW HAS THE ABILITY TO CHANGE TIME AND SPACE BECAUSE MEWTWO LEARNS AURA SPHERE AS WELL. I'm exaggerating. Miracle Eye isn't lock on. Neither is Swift nor Aura Sphere. ME FIRST ISN'T LOCK ON EITHER, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

Biological healing? Somehow, if someone hacked Mewtwo's head off, recovery ain't gonna help him anymore.

Disable gets rid of one move. How is that seriously crippling someone? It's so inaccurate, Thunder Wave is better FFS. Mist is not weather. Every other Pokemon can temporarily control the weather >_>

Future Sight does not see into the future. It is implied that happens, but it doesn't. It is simply an attack that comes at a later time that the user does.

>_>

 

[JOE!]

just another note, about how *gasp* clinton is onto something:


Charizard's flamethrower cannot burn anything, only do damage, as he is never shown in the game as capable of setting anything on fire.

Ivy's poison powder is only a weak DoT, not an actual threatening poison.

Squirtle cannot make people drown by flooding the area with Surf, as it only does damage despite flooding the entire stage as it does in the games.

Etc, Etc

 

[PowerBomb]

just another note, about how *gasp* clinton is onto something:


Charizard's flamethrower cannot burn anything, only do damage, as he is never shown in the game as capable of setting anything on fire.

Ivy's poison powder is only a weak DoT, not an actual threatening poison.

Squirtle cannot make people drown by flooding the area with Surf, as it only does damage despite flooding the entire stage as it does in the games.

Etc, Etc

Surf drains out

 

[JOE!]

none the less, they are all examples of what you guys are saying, especially the 1st one

my question:

shoudl we really be going so true to their games as to lock them into game mechanics?

I mean, HP systems were rendered moot (and Mewtwo should win vs Ness now thanks to Me first and stuff...)

why are things that are essentially "its not seen in his game, so it must not happen, therefor charizards fire cannot set things on fire" or "lol, pokemon can only learn 4 moves to keep it interesting, they cant do it here" kept?

both of those are examples of game mechanics, and shouldnt be ina "true to their games", which implies that they simply get the abilities from their games, not the limitations of the game's engines or rules. Am I right?

 

[PowerBomb]

none the less, they are all examples of what you guys are saying, especially the 1st one

Remember Raizen said an amount of realism is added to stop stupid things from happening?

Flamethrower can burn things. Kind of common sense. Poison Powder might be a weak toxin, not all toxins are extremely lethal.

 

[JOE!]

Remember Raizen said an amount of realism is added to stop stupid things from happening?

i rarely come in here...

Flamethrower can burn things. Kind of common sense. Poison Powder might be a weak toxin, not all toxins are extremely lethal.

then why cant Psionic powers aim right for someone's mind?