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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

Samochan

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The Ice Beam from Prime and Super are very different weapons though. (at least in rate of fire)

That's going pretty far to let her stack unstackable equipment. We're already giving her all of her equipment at once...
It's not like many other stuff from other games has the same name, yet works slightly differently. >.>

Super metroid ice beam on prime would be extremely broken and vice versa mp ice beam on super would be ****ty and metroids would eat you alive. There's a big difference in 2D and 3D mechanics and what works on what dimension.
 

BSP

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Why does it matter what Samus can do if Ganon can disable people in an instant, with no chance of winning/defending/etc.?

Current Matchup

Fox vs. M2 is really close, but I think Fox will win in the end due to barriers and guns after his LM is destroyed.
 

missingnomaster

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Samus stuff matters in other matchups though.... Even though she probably doesn't need all of her beams stacked to beat characters...

I think if Mewtwo had more move slots he could probably beat Fox, but he doesn't, so I have to agree with Fox winning.
 

BSP

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Oh, thought we were specifically talking about Ganon. Well, vs. everyone else, it will be a very potent beam.

I'm still on with Fox winning.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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Vs.



Current Match-Up:
THE MYSTIC CHILD Vs. THE ACE PILOT

Ness Vs. Falco

:ness2: Vs. :falco:

Round 5, Match 5.

Ness was able to take out Wolf, will he be able to do the same to Falco?

Overall Results

Wins +5:

:ganondorf:

Wins +4:

:samus2:, :ike:, :fox:

Wins +3:

:ness2:, :mario2:

Wins +2:

:bowser2:, :sonic:

Wins +1:

:luigi2:, :wolf:, :snake:, :link2:, :falco:, :peach:, :pt:, :diddy:, :toonlink:, :younglinkmelee:, :pit:, :mewtwo:

Neutral:

:lucas:, :marth:, :dk2:

Loss -1:

:roymelee:, :metaknight:, :lucario:, :falcon:, :wario:, :pikachu:, :pichu:

Loss -2:

:kirby2:, :zelda:

Loss -3:

:zerosuitsamus:, :dedede:, :jigglypuff:, :yoshi2:

Loss -4:

:popo:, :olimar:

Loss -5:

:gw:, :rob:
 

the king of murder

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So…when has Ganondorf bested some god/gods or became a god? I’m just wondering…
In pretty munch any game he appeard? For example: In TP he could fool Zant into believing he is a god (which he isn´t but that proves how powerful he is) or in Attp he could rule the Sacred Realm like a god. The back story of WW and the story the king tells you in this game proves it that the gods saw Ganon as the greatest treat in the world since they flooded the entire land (Hyrule) and tried to seal away his power with the Master Sword. Also Midna used the Fused Shadows against Ganondorf which I´m sure has a very great power. Ganondorf however overcame this power.
But I´m sure you wont agree with me so dont bother.



Yes…I’m familiar with what the “holy” element is…and fun fact…Link isn’t the only one packing one on his stuff…
But that doesn´t mean anything. If the weapon or attack can´t repel evil Ganondorf will laughing his *** off. It doesn´t matter if the weapon is holy,sacred or blessed by a god or anything else if it doesn´t repel evel (The Execution Sword was holy but after Ganondorf activated his ToP it was nothing to him).



Well I guess I can’t argue with that…so please explain to me how when he is alive again…he wouldn’t have it restored?

I mean…TP clearly shows that it can come along at whenever it wants…or is already with him anyway…
Because I told you that he assembled the full Triforce somehow before his dead or something else.
In OOA/OOS it is stated that the full Triforce was kept in a shrine. That means Ganon couldn´t have the ToP at this moment because he was dead.
http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Triforce

Also…how can you say Ganondorf doesn’t have the triforce of power in OoA/OoS…when the only reason the guy became Ganon in the 1st place was with help from the ToP?
In Attp he was corrupted by the magic of the Dark World (the world he wished with the Triforce). Therefor he turned into the beast he is.

The only reason Ganondorf has most of those things is because of abusing a power that in the 1st place he has no right to call his own...

Really w/o the power...the only thing I've seen him do is throw a simple energy ball...
Your wrong. The Triforce of Power and it´s power is a part of Ganondorf. As long as the ToP is in his hands all the powers belongs to him. The gods cant simply take it away. If they could they would have done it in WW. Ganondorf claimed it and is now part of him.

Topic: Has Falco the Landmaster as well? If yes he wins.
 

missingnomaster

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Your wrong. The Triforce of Power and it´s power is a part of Ganondorf. As long as the ToP is in his hands all the powers belongs to him. The gods cant simply take it away. If they could they would have done it in WW. Ganondorf claimed it and is now part of him.

Topic: Has Falco the Landmaster as well? If yes he wins.
That's something that can be argued, but I don't think there's enough information from the series to get an accurate conclusion. I personally think the gods were just toying with everything, and at the end of TP, took the Triforce of Power from Ganondorf when he needed it most.


Topic: The landmaster would be an even easier opponent than the arwing. It would be easier to hit since it's slower. _clinton is actually right about Ness practically being a human tank with what he takes and shrugs off.
 

PowerBomb

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Rockin' would hurt.

I think the Light/Dark/Annihilator Beams would stack. Sure, that would drain their ammo extremely quickly, but she can toggle them off and on. I don't see why not, especially since Samus' Suit is made to do that kind of thing.

Dunno about Missile combos still working that way. Probably not.
 

the king of murder

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Topic: The landmaster would be an even easier opponent than the arwing. It would be easier to hit since it's slower. _clinton is actually right about Ness practically being a human tank with what he takes and shrugs off.
Ah I´m sorry then. I thought he was kinda like Mewtwo a PSI-user. Have to check some information about Ness since I don´t know munch about him.
 

missingnomaster

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Ness is like Mewtwo but with everything better (except for Mewtwo's status moves like Embargo)
Though Ness would likely have more trouble with the Arwing than a Landmaster since he doesn't have a failsafe way to hit airborne opponents (I don't think, and _clinton will definitely be disagreeing with me here)
 

JOE!

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wait, why couldnt Mewtwo attack Fox inside the arwing? hes ****ing psychic...

are you really just taking game mechanics like that, without transposing what he could do with moves like psychic/etc?
 

Samochan

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I really don't agree to Fox winning. <_> Even pikachu stood a chance, but mewtwo has 10x better moveset and moves fox will have hard time even avoiding. >_> Sub to block all damage yauhz, recover to recover damage, then thunder/cm combo for 100% accuracy and boost + 30% paralysis, or hail/blizzard for 100% accurate blizzard with 10% chance of freezing fox and killing him when he crashes down (and if he doesn't, one more blizzard ftw). With leftovers ofc. Besides if Fox really moves at extremely high speeds, how is he ever gonna hit Mewtwo either who can levitate and is in comparision to asteroids and spaceships and whatnot, a small and agile target. Last time I checked, Fox can only really fire at what's in front of him and takes lots of time to turn around completely, but mewtwo doesn't have this disadvantage. How would pressure work on this matchup anyway? Would it pressure fox to make more mistakes or something or less usage of smart bombs or the likes?

Then possibility of light screen, dodging items or so. Didn't fox have only what, 3 smart bombs? Those can be substituted. Then trick room is always an option, so mewtwo could always attack first on the span of 5 turns.
 

missingnomaster

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Fox can hold up to 9 Bombs, and I believe he was using Landmaster in that matchup. Keep in mind that the lasers have a pretty high rate of fire.
 

Samochan

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Fox can hold up to 9 Bombs, and I believe he was using Landmaster in that matchup. Keep in mind that the lasers have a pretty high rate of fire.
Then brick break should do the trick just fine, it breaks barriers and both landmaster & arwing have shielding barriers in place. Brick break would make it vulnerable to further assaults, the barrier is basically the only thing keeping it intact (kinda like samus).

Light screen would halve the damage done by lasers, sub takes smart bomb damage, brick break to break his barrier and deal some nasty damage (no barriers = gg) and recover to recover damage taken. Brightpowder to boost evasion 10%/light clay to make screen last longer/leftovers to recover 1/16th of hp every turn. With a levitating opponent, fox is bound to miss smart bomb or two and landmaster is not too fast or agile, especially not when turning around. Mewtwo doesn't have this disadvantage, he could just go behind fox and deal damage from there and dance around the landmaster. Pressure would also waste his smart bombs from 9 to 4 (rounds down), one way or another.

Either that or cm/psychic/recover/sub. @Metronome/wise glasses/lefties/petaya/apicot berry. Psychic's 10% chance of lowering special defence is a nice bonus. Calm mind helps mewtwo to tank hits, while sub and recover are self-explanatory. Metronome item gives 10% boost to every consecutive use of an attack, like second attack is 10% boost, third is 20% and so on. Wise glasses boost special attack by 10%, lefties is self-explanatory, petaya boosts speciat attack by +1 when in a pinch (1/3hp left) and apicot berry boosts special defence when in a pinch.

Hm, disable to disable Fox's lasers/smart bombs for a while? =D

I haven't played nor seen assault though, so if landmaster differs too much from star fox 64 in terms or being very good at turning around or shooting behind, please let me know.
 

missingnomaster

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Brick Break only works on Light Screen and Reflect; notice how it fails on Protect.

Smart Bombs can lock on, making them unavoidable (unless mewtwo had teleport, but he won't)
Plus, Pressure seems more like a mental thing than anything else. I don't see how it could affect a machine's consumption of ammo.
 

JOE!

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^this is why we cannot go *strictly* by game mechanics for the pokemon...

for example, Charizard can fly, is he limited to the MOVE Fly? or can he actually fly around to avoid stuff?

so far you guys are making it so he can only use the MOVE fly...which is why i am arguing the arwing and Fox be counted as 2 different targets, which mewtwo can target due to his PSYCHIC POWERS allowing him to affect fox's mind
 

Samochan

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Brick Break only works on Light Screen and Reflect; notice how it fails on Protect.

Smart Bombs can lock on, making them unavoidable (unless mewtwo had teleport, but he won't)
Plus, Pressure seems more like a mental thing than anything else. I don't see how it could affect a machine's consumption of ammo.
Protect hasn't ever been classified as a barrier move, nor is it implied it's such. The graphics don't make a barrier such as screen or reflect do either. Screen and reflect make distinguishable walls of light, while protect (and detect) make sorta bling bling happen around the pokemon (and detect makes sorta star appear) and then the pokemon is just protected from attacks, because it evades them. Note it doesn't protect from all attacks as being a barrier would do, but when for example, hail is in effect, blizzard has 30% chance of hitting when protecting because hail makes blizzard 100% accurate and always hit.

"It enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession. "

Brick break:

"The user attacks with tough fists, etc. It can also break any barrier such as Light Screen and Reflect."


Pressure would then affect Fox's performance mentally, most likely making him missing his attacks (thus wasting his ammo like PP in pokemon).

The premise of lock on was that the opponent needs to be in front of the vehicle and then player needs to stay locked on/aim and get the lock on for a short duration before firing smart bomb. At least that's what I recall. Mewtwo could avoid that by not being in Fox's vision or getting the hell out once Fox sees him and tries to lock on. Then those bombs that he gets to shoot and hit mewtwo can be substituted, substitute is a fast move even in turn based game like pokemon.
 

missingnomaster

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I´ve got a question. If Mewtwo uses teleport can he teleport inside the Landmaster (is there enough room for him)?
I don't think there would be enough room.
^this is why we cannot go *strictly* by game mechanics for the pokemon...

for example, Charizard can fly, is he limited to the MOVE Fly? or can he actually fly around to avoid stuff?

so far you guys are making it so he can only use the MOVE fly...which is why i am arguing the arwing and Fox be counted as 2 different targets, which mewtwo can target due to his PSYCHIC POWERS allowing him to affect fox's mind
There's a difference. Charizard being able to fly is common sense. Mewtwo using telekinesis and telepathic powers is something only demonstrated in the pokemon anime.

Protect hasn't ever been classified as a barrier move, nor is it implied it's such. The graphics don't make a barrier such as screen or reflect do either. Screen and reflect make distinguishable walls of light, while protect (and detect) make sorta bling bling happen around the pokemon (and detect makes sorta star appear) and then the pokemon is just protected from attacks, because it evades them. Note it doesn't protect from all attacks as being a barrier would do, but when for example, hail is in effect, blizzard has 30% chance of hitting when protecting.

"It enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession. "

Brick break:

"The user attacks with tough fists, etc. It can also break any barrier such as Light Screen and Reflect."


Pressure would then affect Fox's performance mentally, most likely making him missing his attacks (thus wasting his ammo like PP in pokemon).

The premise of lock on was that the opponent needs to be in front of the vehicle and then player needs to stay locked on for a short duration before firing smart bomb. At least that's what I recall. Mewtwo could avoid that by not being in Fox's vision or getting the hell out once Fox sees him and tries to lock on. Then those bombs that he gets to shoot and hit mewtwo can be substituted, substitute is a fast move even in turn based game like pokemon.
Wow, seriously? Protect isn't a shield? You're argument for that is no better than Wii's. Protect is shown as a shield of sorts for every single appearance its made in the games (and in all but one in the anime). Note how the barrier never completely surrounds the pokemon that used Protect. Also note how evading damage with a shield is still evasion. Brick break's description is apparently wrong. Just like how we don't take Jet Kirby's description of going Mach 5 as valid. Pressure does not make pokemon miss attacks in game, does not do that here.
 

JOE!

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how is it not commense sense for the most powerful psychic pokemon though?!

think about it:

Charizard has wings -> he can fly around, but doesnt necesarily limit himself to "Fly"

Mewtwo is the most powerful Psychic Pokemon -> lol, he cannot do things involving Psionics outside of moves.


?????????????
 

Samochan

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Psychic targets all targets in pokemon, so it would be plausible to also attack fox with it... unless the shielding protects him ofc.

Mewtwo has shown telepathic powers on PMD.

I'm thinking though... why shouldn't Mewtwo have teleport when he learned it once upon a time, when everyone else gets something even when they've gotten redone and all? <.< Mew can teleport still and Mewtwo is made from mew's genes and albeit mewtwo can't learn all attacks mew can, he still has quite a movepool and when first introducted, could learn teleport via tm but later couldn't cause the TM for teleport disappeared (which is frankly, the only reason he cannot learn teleport lol). <_<; But it's not like this isn't the same mewtwo from that era when he first came into existence...
 

missingnomaster

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how is it not commense sense for the most powerful psychic pokemon though?!

think about it:

Charizard has wings -> he can fly around, but doesnt necesarily limit himself to "Fly"

Mewtwo is the most powerful Psychic Pokemon -> lol, he cannot do things involving Psionics outside of moves.


?????????????
The moves do what they are shown to do in game. no mindrape and no fling-my-opponent-into-the-ground-with-my-mind.
Psychic targets all targets in pokemon, so it would be plausible to also attack fox with it... unless the shielding protects him ofc.

Mewtwo has shown telepathic powers on PMD.
Really, I could have sworn it was a single target move. I need to check some information on it I guess.

What powers did Mewtwo demonstrate in PMD?
I made a lot of edits in regards to Protect in my last post btw.


EDIT: Your arugment about mewtwo and teleport doesn't quite work because R/B/Y and Fr/Lg are the same time period, Fr/Lg just retcons R/B/Y.
 

JOE!

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so wait, if the moves do what they are shown in game, pokemon cannot move, and attack by wiggling

KK
 

PowerBomb

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how is it not commense sense for the most powerful psychic pokemon though?!

think about it:

Charizard has wings -> he can fly around, but doesnt necesarily limit himself to "Fly"

Mewtwo is the most powerful Psychic Pokemon -> lol, he cannot do things involving Psionics outside of moves.


?????????????
Mewtwo isn't the most powerful Psychic Pokemon. Deoxys-A is.

LOL NO

Psychic only hits one target.

Hmm, what else? Orite, Blizzard is affected by range as well. Pokemon using Fly/Dive/Dig can evade it even in hail. Since the Arwing would be flying, Thunder is a much more suitable choice. Also, another thing: PMD is much more limited by range than the version games. Just an FYI.
 

Samochan

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The moves do what they are shown to do in game. no mindrape and no fling-my-opponent-into-the-ground-with-my-mind.
This applies to protect as well. <_< It makes your pokemon evade your opponent's moves, though it cannot evade some certain moves. Then moves that get boosted into no-evasion like blizzard on hail, get 30% chance of hitting that pokemon who's using this superb form of evasion. Detect is exacly the same and with same description even, only with different graphics.

I'd assume brick break fails to break protect's "shield" cause you know, it evades it lol. If it were a simple shield, we'd have no such things like hail+blizzard actually hitting because of their no-evasion factor. Note this applies to detect too, cause detect and protect are the same thing (you cannot use both consistently or with endure, for example).

What powers did Mewtwo demonstrate in PMD?
I made a lot of edits in regards to Protect in my last post btw.
Telepathy and levitation, capable of beating 2 skilled rescue team members in simple attack (sorta flash of light/screen gone white), also said to be the strongest pokemon in the world (even stronger than rayquaza who destroyed a meteorite with one hyper beam).

Edit: Oh ff... sorry, I read wrong. >_>; Nevermind. Psychic only affects one opponent.
 

PowerBomb

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NO

Psychic is a single-target move!

http://serebii.net/attackdex-dp/psychic.shtml

Read: SELECTED TARGET

EDIT: You just disproved yourself, Samo. Bulbapedia says anyone but the user, it doesn't say everyone.

Samochan said:
Telepathy and levitation, capable of beating 2 skilled rescue team members in simple attack (sorta flash of light/screen gone white), also said to be the strongest pokemon in the world (even stronger than rayquaza who destroyed a meteorite with one hyper beam).
It wasn't said to be one attack. Blastoise and Charizard said that they were defeated, but they didn't say an OHKO.
 

Samochan

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NO

Psychic is a single-target move!

http://serebii.net/attackdex-dp/psychic.shtml

Read: SELECTED TARGET

EDIT: You just disproved yourself, Samo. Bulbapedia says anyone but the user, it doesn't say everyone.
Honest mistake does not affect my credibility. :p

At least it shouldn't.

It wasn't said to be one attack. Blastoise and Charizard said that they were defeated, but they didn't say an OHKO.
It could be a quick series of attacks then, however it all happened in a flash and apparently neither chari nor blastoise stood no chance or could defend themselves against it. However it or they were powerful enough to reduce two experienced rescue members to nothing.
 

missingnomaster

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I really don't see why we should take such a loose description that can fit shields and dodges over what actually happens in game. It is not a shield that fully surrounds the user, either.

Notice how all but one or two pokemon who can learn tms can learn Protect. How the heck is Shuckle dodging Surf again?
 

Samochan

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I really don't see why we should take such a loose description that can fit shields and dodges over what actually happens in game. It is not a shield that fully surrounds the user.

Notice how all but one or two pokemon who can learn tms can learn Protect. How the heck is Shuckle dodging Surf again?
I dunno how shuckle dodges surf, but then you also gotta ask how in the world does mewtwo learn flamethrower? Or pikachu surfing and flying? And all that stuff.

The description is there though. Besides if we ignore this, we could very well ignore psychic description of hitting people with telekinetic force in favor of using telekinesism like it's namesake "psychokinesism" suggests. <_<

Protect is funny graphically, but in mechanics not any bit different from detect which it works in tandem with (aka if you use detect, you'r chances of doing protect succesfully on next turn drops to 50%), which means they work the same way, having the same descriptions as well (I don't believe in such consequences lol). Protect on GSC and RSE is jusy a random bling slowly moving graphical wall of something going in front of your pokemon, which doesn't tell us anything. I mean, they already had detect, so they wanted something different. >_> These descriptions are taken from the actual game too, how are they wrong now? :/
 

Uffe

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PSI Rockin' and PSI Flash both hit multiple enemies. Bag of Dragonite would probably be a better choice for Ness to use against Falco. I believe he's got four of them, too.
 

BSP

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If M2 got close enough to BB, and doesn't have teleport, what's stopping Fox from running him over? Are pokemon limited to 4 moves here?
 

missingnomaster

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I dunno how shuckle dodges surf, but then you also gotta ask how in the world does mewtwo learn flamethrower? Or pikachu surfing and flying? And all that stuff.
~~~
The description is there though. Besides if we ignore this, we could very well ignore psychic description of hitting people with telekinetic force in favor of using telekinesism. <_<

Protect is funny graphically, but in mechanics not any bit different from detect which it works in tandem with (aka if you use detect, you'r chances of doing protect succesfully on next turn drops to 50%), which means they work the same way, having the same descriptions as well (I don't believe in such consequences lol). Protect on GSC and RSE is jusy a random bling slowly moving graphical wall of something going in front of your pokemon, which doesn't tell us anything. I mean, they already had detect, so they wanted something different. >_> These descriptions are taken from the actual game too, how are they wrong now? :/
That's pretty irrelevant. Those are rather specific issues, the list of pokemon who cannot feasibly dodge is quite large.
~~~
If we ignore the animations, I'm sure there's some pretty messed up junk that could happen as well.
Notice how many fewer pokemon can learn Detect than Protect. It clearly takes more effort to dodge something than it does to put up a shield (considering that almost everything can learn Protect). Why would they have two dodging moves?
These animations are taken from the actual game too, how are they wrong now? :/
 

REL38

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Pikachu can fly???

How in the world does that work :/

Anyways, Psychic is a strong telekinetic force.
I've always seen it as being produced from the user's mind and acting as a gust of "wind", so to speak. Only infused with psychic properties.
I don't see that hurting a Landmaster.

@MU
PK Rockin'
 

JOE!

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why cant mewtwo target fox within the landmaster/arwing/magical potato?

he is PSYCHIC, thus he should be able to target an opponent's mind
 

missingnomaster

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Pikachu flying has always been associated with that Baloon Pikachu thing, if I'm not mistaken.

Psychic should definitely hurt the Landmaster, but it's not mindraping Fox inside.

why cant mewtwo target fox within the landmaster/arwing/magical potato?

he is PSYCHIC, thus he should be able to target an opponent's mind
Because that's not what happens in the game, only in the anime.
 
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