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Smash Brawl Icon Discovery

Novaya_Russia

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
34
Let's talk about what makes a pattern "solid" or "plausible".

Simply put, a pattern is plausible if there's a low chance that the pattern you're describing could arise by chance. Therefore, to test if this theory is plausible, we must look at all the different orderings of the games, and look at what percentage could fit our pattern.

To simplify maters, I'll just look at the ten original franchises. Later, I might come back around and look at how they're segregated by Smash Bros. entry (SSB to SSBM to SSBB).

How many ways are there to order ten things? Well, in the first slot, you could put any of the ten items. In the second, you could put one of the nine items not chosen for the first slot, and so on and so forth. Therefore, there are 10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1 = 10! = 3,628,800 different orderings.

How many of these orderings could fit our pattern? Well, lets assume that if we change from the series name to a character name, we change the ordering of the games. This is not strictly true - Mother and Ness are interchangeable without changing the ordering of the games - but that does mean whatever percentage we get from our analysis will be greater than the true percentage.

There are two ways of naming each franchise - by franchise name and character name. This means there are 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2 = 2 ^ 10 = 1,024 orderings that could fit our pattern.

That means the percentage of orderings that fit our pattern is 1024/3628800 = .02822%, or roughhly three in every ten thousand orderings.

Sure, there's no rhyme or reason as to why they switch haphazardly between the two, and intuitively, you're thinking that we arbitrarily extended our pattern to the point where its statistically invalid. But look at that number. .02822%. Even less than that, as I noted above. Tell me how you get around the impossibly low odds of this pattern emerging randomly.
 

Novaya_Russia

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
34
Okay, hold on, I have more math.

I'm going to assume nobody argues about the Smash Bros. entry segregation. Because 1024 (greater than the number of SSB patterned orderings) * 2 (The number of Melee patterned orderings) * 64 (Greater than the number of Brawl patterned orderings) / 6402373705728000 = .000000002047%. Therefore, your argument is either A) They are segregated, but not alphabetized within, or B) You have no clue what numbers mean.

Okay, so then we assume there are 3 different parts - the SSB, the Melee, and Brawl parts. Like I said earlier, the odds of the SSB ordering being patterned at random is .02822%. Similiarly, there are 2^6/6! = 8.889% odds of that being patterned randomly (The odds of the two Melee franchises arriving randomly is 100%, since any ordering of the two fits the pattern). So lets multiply the two together. .0002822 * .08889 = .002578% chance that the pattern evolved randomly. Again, less than that, as statred earlier.

So the real number you're arguing against is .002578%. A tall order.
 

Ondo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
160
Tell me how you get around the impossibly low odds of this pattern emerging randomly.
Sure thing. First off, we're not interested in the chance this pattern would show up randomly, but the chance any pattern at least this logical would show up. So that increases the odds dramatically right there.

Secondly, there are only two possibilities - it came about randomly, or someone choose this pattern. The chance of someone choosing this pattern is also extremely low - just looking at the first 10, it's a 1 in 1024 to choose this ordering, even ignoring the chance to choose a more logical pattern.

So a .09766% chance of being chosen, and a .02822% chance of being random. But since it happened, we only care about the relative chance - the chance of being random is more then 1/4 the chance of being chosen, so there's a better than 1 in 5 chance it was random (22.418%, to be more precise). Not a hard number to argue with, especially since I've ignored the first point for these calculations.

EDIT: Bah! Ignore all those calculations - I was comparing the chance of selecting one specific order to the chance of randomly getting any of the permutations that fit the pattern.

In reality, we're just interested in the odds that they would decide to order the Japanese character or series name, chosen arbitrarily, by English alphabetization rules. I think it's low, but it is, like the first point, irritatingly non-quantifiable.
 

GaryCXJk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
1,809
Have you not look at the other theories in the topic at all? You have to choose the series name in japanese. Same with main characters.
Who says the theory still holds ground? It could just be that there won't be any man who is mega, or one who is practically nill.
 

Novaya_Russia

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
34
Sure thing. First off, we're not interested in the chance this pattern would show up randomly, but the chance any pattern at least this logical would show up. So that increases the odds dramatically right there.
Not really. Patterns like "Numerical by release date" "First position on the Smash select screen" "Unlockable order" would account, each individually, for 1/3628800 = .00002756%. Patterns that are functional - that is every game x can me mapped to a particular value y - can be ordered by y only one way. Arbitrary patterns, however - where every game x is arbitrarily mapped to one of a set of values {y, y', y''...} - have numerous orderings that fit the pattern. Frankly, "Alphabetical arbitrarily between series and character" is the only arbitrary pattern that's at all logical. Unless someone can give me an example, I'm prepared to claim there isn't one.

I feel it would be an overstatement to assume there are 100 such logical functional patterns. But I'll assume it, since even with that overstatement, the probabilities involved are quite small. Again assuming that each functional pattern yields an ordering unique from the other functionals and our arbitrary, the probability of one of these logical patterns arising by chance is 1124/3628800 = .03097%. That's hardly a dramatic increase, three thousandths of a percent.

Secondly, there are only two possibilities - it came about randomly, or someone choose this pattern. The chance of someone choosing this pattern is also extremely low - just looking at the first 10, it's a 1 in 1024 to choose this ordering, even ignoring the chance to choose a more logical pattern.

So a .09766% chance of being chosen, and a .02822% chance of being random. But since it happened, we only care about the relative chance - the chance of being random is more then 1/4 the chance of being chosen, so there's a better than 1 in 5 chance it was random (22.418%, to be more precise). Not a hard number to argue with, especially since I've ignored the first point for these calculations.
You've lost me here. There are three possibilities - the ordering was randomly decided (A set of 3,628,800 orderings), the ordering was chosen based on a logical pattern (The 1024 orderings from our logical arbitrary + the 100 logical functionals = > 1124 orderings, given the overassumptions, or it was chosen based on some illogical pattern, which for our purposes is useless, since it's impossible to predict based on something like "Sakurai's favorite", so its practically the same as randomness.

There is no significance to the value 1/1024 = .09766%. Those are the odds of someone picking this specific ordering out of all the orderings that fit a logical pattern (Well, considering my revision, its 1/1124 = .08897%). However... there is no significance in this probability. The pattern holding is only based on the odds an ordering fitting the pattern would arise by chance. This chance is .03097%. The odds of a particular ordering being chosen out of that is irrelevant.

In fact, but whatever twisted logic you're using, you're calculating the square of the patterned set size over the total ( [x/3628800]/[1/x] = x^2/3628800). I don't see the relevance. You'd need a patterned set size of under 200 to gain a probability of less than 1%, but again... 1/1124 is a usueless, meaningless probability.
 

Link Sharingan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
552
i hope that is Rockman since Megaman X own and remenber what sakurai said that atlest 3 3rd paty character would at least make it to Brawl
 

GaryCXJk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
1,809
Wow... that's... strange.

I've made a new icon finder, one for the update icons (seen when listing everything by date). I've been archiving these images as well, but I now found out something... interesting.

http://multiverseworks.com/smashicon2b.php

It may take a while before it's fully loaded, but you will see every icon that is listed here.

You can, however, see something odd. It seems that near the end, between the Sonic movie icon and the Sonic special moves icon (fifth row, last few icons) there are two undefined icons. One is for the press conference video, but the other has never been defined at all.

It seems that Sakurai either has pulled one update at the last moment, or something has gone wrong in the numbering of icons. Either way, one number is missing, and it also doesn't appear in the other languages.

You can check it yourself when you list the posts by date, in order of oldest to newest and go to page 9.
 

Super Smash Master

Smash Lord
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
1,298
I bet the next character to be shown on the dojo will either be Megaman (I think this, because Capcom has a summit coming up soon, and all the 3rd party character trailers being shown close to eachother makes sense), Olimar or Falcon. I suspect Olimar to be a starter. Punch-Out was deconfirmed, because Lil Mac is an AT. Panel de pon probably won't happen, due to lip's stick being an item still. Who actually wanted Lip anyway?
 

Conker1

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 7, 2001
Messages
602
Location
Florida
i hope that is Rockman since Megaman X own and remenber what sakurai said that atlest 3 3rd paty character would at least make it to Brawl
He said they would add 1-2 more, not including Snake. So Sonic and Snake may very well be the only 3rd parties.
 

Lemon Drop

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2006
Messages
1,286
Location
KY, USA
Using the theory, I like to believe (though predicting series in Brawl are pretty tricky) that 19 is going to either be Megaman (Rockman) or Pikmin (Pikumin)
 

IllidR

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,373
Location
"Pikmen" Forever!
Using the theory, I like to believe (though predicting series in Brawl are pretty tricky) that 19 is going to either be Megaman (Rockman) or Pikmin (Pikumin)
If it's between those two I have no doubt in my mind it will be Pikmin, sorry Megaman fans but I sincerely believe Captain Olimar will be in even though I love Megaman.
 

Mersh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
75
The Alphabetical Order Theory makes absolutely no sense, stop going by it. Megaman and Olimar will both be in the game. -_-
 

Xanderous

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
1,598
The Alphabetical Order Theory makes absolutely no sense, stop going by it. Megaman and Olimar will both be in the game. -_-
Half of this is fact.

And it's the first half.

Of course, the second half is probable.
 

Bassoonist

Smash Master
Joined
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I really don't like this theory... It deconfirms my most wanted character.

I can't go against it for that reason, however. It just means I probably won't be buying the game after all if this is true and Isaac isn't actually playable.
 

Mersh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
75
Except it's not true and makes absolutely no sense. The only true "order" of the world icons is the fact that it goes SSB franchises -> Melee Franchises -> New Franchises.

The fact that you have to randomly switch between the franchise title and the name of the main character to fit this puzzle together should make it obvious that it's not true and has no logic behind it. It's just desperate fans trying WAY too hard to get clued in on who'll be in the game.
 

Bassoonist

Smash Master
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Except when it uses the character's names, that's the name of the franchise...
 

freeman123

Smash Lord
Joined
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GA
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It's funny how icon after icon is accurately predicted based on this theory, and yet people still insist that the theory makes no sense. So maybe the theory has a few holes in it that we can't explain. So does the theory of evolution. Does that mean we should just throw it out and say it makes no sense?

Even now people are predicting that 19 will be Pikmin or Megaman, and when that ends up being proven true idiots will still deny that this theory makes sense.

BTW, Bomberman is also known as "White Bomberman", "White Bomb", "White Bomber", and "Shirobon". Any one of those could go after Sonic. I don't know why everyone is so convinced the next 3rd party character has to be Megaman.
 

Drclaw411

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
People at NSiders discovered this a while back.

It goes in order of game.

First, the series introduced in 64, then Melee, then Smash.

BTW: Game and Watch confirmed basically. Fire Emblem and Ice Climbers have a space between them and no other series besides Game and Watch was announced in Melee.
 

DraginHikari

Emerald Star Legacy
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Uhh... I don't this frames out all possibility it could be as simple as they don't have icons on the server for francaises they haven't used yet oO
 

ilabb

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 18, 2006
Messages
131
Except when it uses the character's names, that's the name of the franchise...
01: Dairantō Smash Brothers (Super Smash Bros.)
02: Donkī Kongu (Donkey Kong)
03: Fokkusu (Star Fox)
04: Hoshi no Kābii/Kābii (Kirby)
05: Kyaputen Farukon (F-Zero)
06: Metoroido (Metroid)
07: ??? (Most likely will be Mother/Earthbound)
08: Pokemon/Poketto Monsutā
09: Rinku (Zelda)
10: Sūpā Mario (Super Mario)
11: Yosshī (Yoshi)
12:Faia Emuburemu (Fire Emblem)
13:
14:popo (Aisu Kuraima) (Ice climbers)
15: Dōbutsu no Mori (Animal Crossing)
16: Made in Wario (Wario Ware, it's NOT Wario as a whole)
17:Metal Gear (Metal Gear Solid)
18: Parutena no Kagami (Kid Icarus)
19:
20:Sonic
Look at 03, 05, 09, and 14. Those are not the names of games, they are the names of the characters who happen to be from that games. It's not a pattern, it's grasping at straws.

For example, "Rinku" should be "Zeruda no Densetsu," but we'll omit that little tidbit of information for the sake of baseless claims. Claims can't have bases now, can they?
 

HollaAtchaBoy

Smash Master
Joined
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I hate it when people come by and say, "Zeruda no Densetsu" is not "Rinku," ergo the whole theory is tossed out the window. Shenanigans. Sure the alphabetizing may be off and wrong, but the original 11 franchises from SSB64 are the first 11, and the three introduced in Melee are 12-14, and all the new ones come next.

That is fact. That cannot be disputed.

One flaw does not kill the entire theory.
 

PyrasTerran

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
337
Location
Miami, FL
1.Smash Bros.
2.DK series
3.Fox series
4.Kirby Series
5.F-Zero series
6.Metroid Series
7.Earthbound/Mother series
8.Pokemon Series
9. Zelda Series
10. Mario series
11.Yoshi series
12.Fire Emblem icon
13.??? (Possibly Game & Watch?)
14.Ice Climbers series
15.Animal Crossing icon
16.Wario symbol
17.Snakes FOXHOUND symbol
18.Pit's Symbol
19.???
20.Sonic series

Also many members have thought the list is going in Alphabetical Order by Japanese names.

Quote:
01: Dairantō Smash Brothers (Super Smash Bros.)
02: Donkī Kongu (Donkey Kong)
03: Fokkusu (Star Fox)
04: Hoshi no Kābii/Kābii (Kirby)
05: Kyaputen Farukon (F-Zero)
06: Metoroido (Metroid)
07: ??? (Most likely will be Mother/Earthbound)
08: Pokemon/Poketto Monsutā
09: Rinku (Zelda)
10: Sūpā Mario (Super Mario)
11: Yosshī (Yoshi)
12:Faia Emuburemu (Fire Emblem)
13:
14:popo (Aisu Kuraima) (Ice climbers)
15: Dōbutsu no Mori (Animal Crossing)
16: Made in Wario (Wario Ware, it's NOT Wario as a whole)
17:Metal Gear (Metal Gear Solid)
18: Parutena no Kagami (Kid Icarus)
19:
20:Sonic
..Wait.. how is this in alphabetical order?? Yoshi's a pretty big fluke to have him in the middle o.O
 

HollaAtchaBoy

Smash Master
Joined
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..Wait.. how is this in alphabetical order?? Yoshi's a pretty big fluke to have him in the middle o.O
::Sigh:: Yet again...

1 = Smash Universe
2 - 11 = Universes introduced SSB64
12 - 14 = Universes introduced in SSBM (Fire Emblem, G&W, Ice Climber)
14 + = New Universes started in Brawl.
 

Titan05

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
290
Location
UTSA
Whether its alphabetical or not, it does appear that a symbol or two is missing from the general pattern, so something has to be announced.

So although the model may not be absolutely correct it can still be used to accurately predict results without risk a high risk of error.
I'm glad there are some attentive people out there putting out theories. It makes the world go round.
 

PyrasTerran

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
337
Location
Miami, FL
Yes, the icons were not released in numerical order after all, I wonder how long it will take until the last icons are revealed.
 

Fawriel

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
4,245
Location
oblivion~
Look at 03, 05, 09, and 14. Those are not the names of games, they are the names of the characters who happen to be from that games. It's not a pattern, it's grasping at straws.

For example, "Rinku" should be "Zeruda no Densetsu," but we'll omit that little tidbit of information for the sake of baseless claims. Claims can't have bases now, can they?
Because obviously Link is just a random Legend of Zelda character.
What, he's the main character? Why would you omit that little tidbit of information?

If the character in place of "Zeruda no Densetsu" would be Ganondorf or even Malon or something, then yes, this would be completely baseless.
But the way it is, the probability that this theory could work so well is just twice as large as the probability that a list without such deviations would have formed completely through coincidence.
I'm no expert on calculating probability, but this only means you can choose from either the franchise name or the name of the main character. Which is either 2 or even 1 letter out of about 25. (Not counting c.)
 

Pluvia's other account

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
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No Internet?!?
I'm not to sure who's right.

HollaAtchaBoy seems to be talking sense though! There are no holes in his logic.

But as long as Mr.G&W and Captain Olimar are playable, I'm happy. :)
 

PsychoIncarnate

The Eternal Will of the Swarm
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I'm not to sure who's right.

HollaAtchaBoy seems to be talking sense though! There are no holes in his logic.

But as long as Mr.G&W and Captain Olimar are playable, I'm happy. :)
Megaman is looking more likely...


...could Pikmin not be represented?
 

Doraki

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
1,094
Location
Paris - France
Alphabetical order in japanese looks NOTHING like our alphabetical order with the names written in romaji. It would make very little sense to me if they bothered to translate the names in romaji just to use our alphabetical ordering with them.

I bet you would have to look at how everything's written in katakanas and order them with the katakana ordering.
 

PsychoIncarnate

The Eternal Will of the Swarm
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Alphabetical order in japanese looks NOTHING like our alphabetical order with the names written in romaji. It would make very little sense to me if they bothered to translate the names in romaji just to use our alphabetical ordering with them.

I bet you would have to look at how everything's written in katakanas and order them with the katakana ordering.

I mentioned that some time ago and it came up...

...but for some reason was soon forgotten
 

PyrasTerran

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
337
Location
Miami, FL
Alphabetical order in japanese looks NOTHING like our alphabetical order with the names written in romaji. It would make very little sense to me if they bothered to translate the names in romaji just to use our alphabetical ordering with them.
Why is that senseless? Everything fits together so well, after all.
 

sceptilian

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
87
The thing is, the whole list doesn't make sense if it were supposed to be ordered in katakana. In only works if the Japanese name is given an English alphabetical order. So yeah. And it fits well like that.
 
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