Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[Martial]

Well, I agree in the sense that Pit is definitely a good enough character to deal with most of the stuff that comes his way, potentially; he's not a Falcon or Jiggs, that both have "impossible" matchups. However, against some characters and in some situations, he is put at a natural disadvantage, and will have to play slightly harder or smarter in order to come out on top. That's basically unavoidable, unless you play Metaknight.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Pit is amazing. Pit should be a spammer, and he's not THAT easy to gimp. I mean if he's using up is should be kind of a last resort I would think.

As for trouble killing, I would say he lacks killing power like MK, but doesn't actually have trouble, like MK lol.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

just jump off the stage, and when you get close to his head, jump again, game ovuh for yoshi.

beware the egg and the uair

 

[kupo15]

Yes he may have to work harder like for MK and I think Kirby but thats it. But if they or anyone messes up, the punishment is huge. Mirror shield Owns MK more than I can say.

Martial you are right. As I said, he has some natural disadvantages but very little and he makes up for those with his ATs.

Falcon: What exactly do you mean by lacks killing Power? Consider shuttle loop like pits Bair (but harder to hit with) and his down smash as pits Fsmash.
And yes, you would think that Up b is a last resort but most ppl think otherwise as well as the noob pits themselves who needs to learn that his Up B is not like what we all are used to. It isnt a guaranteed get back to the ledge move that has a hitbox and you get it back with a hit.
You need to approach Pits up b differently because of this.

 

[Scala]

just jump off the stage, and when you get close to his head, jump again, game ovuh for yoshi.

A footstooled yoshi is a yoshi that doesn't know how to play yoshi.

 

[kupo15]

This is exactly what I am trying to say. A gimped pit is a pit that doesnt know how to play pit. Yet ppl still think he is easily gimped >_<

 

[JJR.O.B.]

Another one is that "Pits are easily gimped" lies. It is equivalent as if I were to say, "Just knock a snake off the edge and grab the cypher. I do it all the time. Its so easy."

Here is a good way to see how well your friend or the Pit player you are facing is. If he is a good Pit player, he will NEVER get gimped. EVER. period.

JJR.O.B: It is clear that the Pits you have played are noobs. Play a good Pit who is willing to wifi or in person and just try to do it once. I dare you.

I will. Ill try to get a friendly with a good Pit at the next tournament I go to

I would think that a ROBs laser would be a better option than a Fair. If a Pit is that dumb to up B right next to the ROB to get hit by a Fair then ****, idk what to tell that guy. Besides, Pit can go under the stage using Up b, no jumps required. Only another Pit and a ROB have the best chance to gimp a pit.

I play as ROB so that why I think gimping pit is easy

 

[sagemoon]

Pit is amazing and can counter every character in the cast. You just havent seen good Pit players. In fact, I would say the majority of everyone has seen crap Pits and not good Pits so noone really knows anything about him, what are is capabilities, weaknesses ect. I see sooo many ppl saying things about Pit that are simply not true. Statements about his weaknesses that are false.

Sorry to disagree, but pit is bottom of high tier at best. I'm sure you're not going to argue with me when I say I'm one of the best pit players. Sure pit has ATs, but so does samus. ATs alone will not make up for pits obvious weakness's (lack of killing, mid-light weight, below average melee range)

Kupo is right about the gimping pit thing. Pit can glide into the stage making it really hard to actually 'gimp' pit. You can keep hitting pit out, but if you ever hit a pit 4 times when he's recvering, it's not really so much of a gimp as it is just edgeguarding.

pit does have many tools, but theres characters out there with many more.

 

[Levitas]

Sage, number of hits doesn't make the difference in whether it's a gimp. In melee a marth can hit a C. Falcon out at 20% and edgeguard with 4 fsmashes and it's still a gimp for sure.

 

[Martial]

This is exactly what I am trying to say. A gimped pit is a pit that doesnt know how to play pit. Yet ppl still think he is easily gimped >_<

Nah, Olimar's easily gimped. Pit just has a recovery with an exploitable weakness. Honestly, I think that his lack of range is a much, much larger problem for him as a character, because it means that against characters like Marth he is forced to camp with arrows so that he doesn't get camped with a sword in his face.

 

[kupo15]

short reach is a sure weakness but he makes up for it with his arrows. But its not that bad. All you have to do is dodge one attack and the long reach does nothing. The wingdashing is excellent for spacing help to narrowly avoid that long reach to retaliate.

 

[Mmac]

I think the only place where Pit could be easily gimped is below the platform, but odds are that he's never going to be there in the first place.

Even so, there's only a few characters that can actually gimp Pit well anywhere are those with a good long ranged and aimable projectile like the Link's or Yoshi, but easier said then done because have you tried hitting him in Freefall? Then you gotta follow it up, which is again easier said than done. Does this sound like a person who is easy to gimp? He's not just going to be floating there, begging for a Spike.

Also Yoshi is another character that is far from easy to gimp. First of all, Double Jump + AirDodge = Zelda's UpB Look Alike. You are talking about something that sends someone the distance of about 6 Blocks, INVINCIBLE. You know what Invincible means? It means you can't hit him! How can you gimp him if you can't hit him? Also, the entire Footstool thing is impossible to do anyways. First of all, it only works if he's doing nothing. It can't cancel out an action. Basically if you try to do this stupid thing, then He'll just blow right past you with an Airdodge, or you'll just eat a rising Uair to the face, possibly into a stage spike. Basically, if you do Footstool him by just jumping at him, then jumping off of him, then he deserved to be footstooled in the first place

 

[kupo15]

very well put. And if a Pit decides to not be aggressive at the ledge, he will just glide back. Even if he is at risk of up b gimp, he will act like snake and up b high and fly higher out of reach and land safely.
I wouldnt think link could do it unless he has a fully charged arrow because Pits can up b pretty low and still live so the link would risk his life. only pit and ROB have the best chance under stage gimp with there projectiles.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Not that these aren't valid points for each of these characters... but is this really the place to be discussing them? I understand the initial defense of your characters. And I'll admit they're very well defended, though kupo seems to be going a little over the top.
I'm not attempting to silence debate; I'm merely stating that this probably isn't the topic for character strengths/weaknesses/etc.

Then again, I suppose that's probably what 80% of this thread is anyway.

 

[kupo15]

Ya i tend to get a bit overly defensive at times. My bad....

 

[Mmac]

Samurai, where are you? ;_ ;

 

[Falconv1.0]

Yes he may have to work harder like for MK and I think Kirby but thats it. But if they or anyone messes up, the punishment is huge. Mirror shield Owns MK more than I can say.

Martial you are right. As I said, he has some natural disadvantages but very little and he makes up for those with his ATs.

Falcon: What exactly do you mean by lacks killing Power? Consider shuttle loop like pits Bair (but harder to hit with) and his down smash as pits Fsmash.
And yes, you would think that Up b is a last resort but most ppl think otherwise as well as the noob pits themselves who needs to learn that his Up B is not like what we all are used to. It isnt a guaranteed get back to the ledge move that has a hitbox and you get it back with a hit.
You need to approach Pits up b differently because of this.

All of MK's killing moves have to be saved. D Smash cant be used til you want the killing blow, etc.

I'm not exactly sure how well up b kills, I just know it kills.

 

[Ace55]

I'm not exactly sure how well up b kills, I just know it kills.

Up b is his strongest move (and who the hell said it was hard to hit with?), you don't even need Dsmash as a kill move (and thus it is spammed beyond belief). Fsmash is only usefull as a kill move anyway, being the slowest move he's got.

 

[Big Red]

Also Yoshi is another character that is far from easy to gimp. First of all, Double Jump + AirDodge = Zelda's UpB Look Alike. You are talking about something that sends someone the distance of about 6 Blocks, INVINCIBLE. You know what Invincible means? It means you can't hit him! How can you gimp him if you can't hit him? Also, the entire Footstool thing is impossible to do anyways. First of all, it only works if he's doing nothing. It can't cancel out an action. Basically if you try to do this stupid thing, then He'll just blow right past you with an Airdodge, or you'll just eat a rising Uair to the face, possibly into a stage spike. Basically, if you do Footstool him by just jumping at him, then jumping off of him, then he deserved to be footstooled in the first place

Alright, I'll agree that footstooling isn't a great way to kill a yoshi, but yoshi's problem is that he can't get back onto the stage. Sure he has a nice long recovery but really the best thing for an opponent to do is sit there and wait for him. Yoshi's double jump cannot grab onto the ledge, this is a big problem, because it means you have to either grab the ledge right as you dj finishes or you'll eat and fsmash right in the face as you poke above the stage.

Doing a rising airdodge is all fine and dandy, but comparing it to zelda's up-b is laughable. The only thing that keeps zelda's recovery from being one of the easiest to gimp in the game is that it hits at the end, Yoshi doesn't have this luxury, and if you try to attack someone after your dj you are likely to fall past the ledge where some measly help from egg jumps won't save you. Yoshi is also in a very vulnerably position when he is just up and away from the ledge and has already used is dj. From here you could try and attack the opponent as you come in, but yoshi's low range and pretty crappy priority aerials won't cut it against most opponents. You could try and airdodge to the ground, but then your opponent will just time your airdodge and fsmash you in the face. Then you can go for the ledge, but you can't airdodge to try and reach it because then you will just fall to your doom. And if you just fall to the ledge you'll get smashed in the face. I find that the best option is to head towards the stage and use an egg throw just before the try and hit me to avoid the attack, but this rarely works.

Sorry if this is confusing, I pretty much fail at explaining things.

 

[kupo15]

you forgot about the egg throw recovery combined with the obnoxious magnet on the ledge

 

[Falconv1.0]

Up b is his strongest move (and who the hell said it was hard to hit with?), you don't even need Dsmash as a kill move (and thus it is spammed beyond belief). Fsmash is only usefull as a kill move anyway, being the slowest move he's got.

Relying on a single killing move=/= Smart idea

 

[Big Red]

you forgot about the egg throw recovery combined with the obnoxious magnet on the ledge

well if you are thinking about doing a dj then egg throw after, that won't work as well since egg throw jump is easy as heck to foot stool. The way I recover from below is dj and canceling it mid jump with a egg throw to sweet spot the ledge, but that isn't that great since then your dj will be easily footstoolable.

 

[ducky285]

Most good Yoshis use eggs first and use the DJ as a last resort (which is why Tap Jump off is popular among Yoshi mains). It's actually pretty easy to get back to the stage on eggs alone, plus it deters would-be edgeguarders. While Yoshi's recovery is far from being amazing, it's a hell of a lot better than most people give him credit for.

 

[kupo15]

how is the egg toss recovery an easy footstool? you have to dodge the egg and plus if he is FS during the move he is uneffected i believe.

 

[Big Red]

it has a lot of cool down which I think he can be foot stool'd during, and even if he can't any aerial would do the trick.

And egg recovery really can't recover from very far.

 

[kupo15]

this is out of my expertise so idk

 

[Mmac]

Ok, but some flaws with your arguement.

1) From the position you are describing, there is no way that Yoshi is going to end up in that position. Ok, this is the image that you're giving me

.................O______
.................\
..................\
.....................................
.....................................
.....................................
................X..................

Where O is the person, X is Yoshi, and \ is the platform.

Now who the hell in their right mind would ANYONE with ANY Character would put themself in a position like that? Of course if you put him there, he's going to look bad. But at least he can actually RECOVER from that position anyways, compared to half the cast >_>

2) The majority of Fsmash's are slow

3) Yoshi can sweetspot the ledge with his Eggs.

4) Most cases he'll end up too high to be interecept with a Fsmash anyways, because he goes too high.


And UpB easy to footstool? I think that basically proves that you don't know anything about the Mechanics of Footstooling, nor have you actually footstool a Yoshi in the first place. Despite the obvious fact that His egg is over his head so that it's not "Easy" in the first place, You can't footstool someone if they're doing an action (Action being Attacking or Airdodging). Since Yoshi's UpB is an attack, it can't be interrupted in the first place!

And what the hell is this crap? First you said that you were going to Physically Edgeguard me by Footstooling me, and all of the sudden he's on the Ledge going to Fsmash me? So he suddenly warped when I breezed past him to intercept him again? Either he's doing one, or the other. He can only do one, and Yoshi is not going to pick the wrong situation when it's clearly visible what he's doing in the first place!

 

[Falconv1.0]

Ok, but some flaws with your arguement.

1) From the position you are describing, there is no way that Yoshi is going to end up in that position. Ok, this is the image that you're giving me

.................O______
.................\
..................\
.....................................
.....................................
.....................................
................X..................

Where O is the person, X is Yoshi, and \ is the platform.

Now who the hell in their right mind would ANYONE with ANY Character would put themself in a position like that? Of course if you put him there, he's going to look bad. But at least he can actually RECOVER from that position anyways, compared to half the cast >_>

2) The majority of Fsmash's are slow

3) Yoshi can sweetspot the ledge with his Eggs.

4) Most cases he'll end up too high to be interecept with a Fsmash anyways, because he goes too high.


And UpB easy to footstool? I think that basically proves that you don't know anything about the Mechanics of Footstooling, nor have you actually footstool a Yoshi in the first place. Despite the obvious fact that His egg is over his head so that it's not "Easy" in the first place, You can't footstool someone if they're doing an action (Action being Attacking or Airdodging). Since Yoshi's UpB is an attack, it can't be interrupted in the first place!

And what the hell is this crap? First you said that you were going to Physically Edgeguard me by Footstooling me, and all of the sudden he's on the Ledge going to Fsmash me? So he suddenly warped when I breezed past him to intercept him again? Either he's doing one, or the other. He can only do one, and Yoshi is not going to pick the wrong situation when it's clearly visible what he's doing in the first place!

MMac, you are the epitome of a smart Yoshi, lololololol.

 

[Big Red]

OK I knew I suck at explaining thing lol.

First the position I'm talking is anywhere in here.

.......................0_____
X..................................
..X................................
......X............................
...........X.......................
..................X................

Where Yoshi is any of the X's, so you can't do a rising air dodge or else, you will blow past the edge, and get fsmashed in the face after the air dodge or fall to your doom. Granted the whole part about canceling the dj with an egg throw in the middle is the best bet, I mentioned that already, but this leaves you vulnerable because you can't do a rising aerial/airdodge.

The other situation I was talking about is this.


......X......................
...............................
...................0____

Yoshi has already used is dj, here, he is screwed, read my previous post second paragraph to see why.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Agrees completely with everything Mmac says.



OMG hint still not up

 

[Mmac]

Only problem is that Yoshi has the Highest Airspeed in the game, and moves at roughly 25* downwards if not fastfalling.

it will be more like this:


.........................O_______
X........................\.............
..........X................\...........
.....................X..................

Very much possible to get back unharmed

 

[Big Red]

Just curious what is the unit for the 25. (not a hole in your argument because I know Yoshi falls slow, just wondering)

I just think if you are in range of getting back with your eggs you are screwed, and even sometime while recovering with eggs because after each toss they have a decent amount of time to hit you.

IDK, you are probably right, I should really work on my recovery because I find myself in these bad spots a lot lol.

 

[kupo15]

im pretty sure that if you are charging a Fsmash, yoshi could up b to interrupt the second jump momentum to sweet spot the ledge or air dodge later. or he could toss an egg to interrupt your charging, stay in the air because of it and then do the double jump with an air dodge or an attack.

I agree with Mmac

 

[Mmac]

Just curious what is the unit for the 25. (not a hole in your argument because I know Yoshi falls slow, just wondering)

Degree's. I not really sure how much it is, but I know that Yoshi moves horizontal way faster than he drops vertical (if not fastfalling)

 

[ducky285]

And egg recovery really can't recover from very far.

It's better than you might think. You can use it up to 4 times to get a height boost and it goes with your horizontal momentum (at times aiding it as well). This coupled with Yoshi's high aerial mobility makes it a decent recovery.

His Egg Toss is almost like multiple midair jumps, though not as flexible since you really can't turn around while using it. The key is you need to have forward momentum and toss the egg by hitting up-forward and B to avoid simply hopping straight up.

 

[Big Red]

and then do the double jump with an air dodge or an attack.

No they simply wait for the air dodge to end and hit or outrange/proritize yoshi which isn't that hard to do.

 

[kupo15]

way to take that out of context. you forgot that the egg hit your face first!

This is the sentence "or he could toss an egg to interrupt your charging, stay in the air because of it and then do the double jump with an air dodge or an attack."

 

[Big Red]

sorry, I figured I didn't need to explain the part where egg toss has little knockback/hitstun.

 

[Mmac]

No they simply wait for the air dodge to end and hit or outrange/proritize yoshi which isn't that hard to do.

But I still see a flaw in this. How would he know if he was going to airdodge through? How would you know if he would Uair/Nair his way through? And what if he was looking like he was doing an attack, but then Airdodges when he gets close to dodge your counter-attack? or what if he goes for the Ledge instead with an egg?

His recovery isn't that simple, straightforward, or predictable as people make it out to be... as long as he has Double Jump that is.

sorry, I figured I didn't need to explain the part where egg toss has little knockback/hitstun.

Little Knockback or stun yeah, but he's on the ledge anyways and basically done it's job

 

[kupo15]

i think Big red needs to play a good yoshi to understand