"SMASH ATTACK" - April 03.-05. '09, Bremen

[Hara]

Just jumping in to laugh at the Stage Striking System... It's the worst idea I have seen in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

 

[Marc]

Someone (Faab) already went ahead and called me biased before I even got to discussing counterpicks. Ad hominem attacks like that only make your point weaker and make me want to disregard whatever else you have to say. I will respond to it just this once though. As some of you may know, I’ve entered Melee tournaments as early as 2002.I’ve seen and experienced every stage in the game in competitive play.[/b] The same is true for players like Remen. We KNOW what to do on every stage, so that really isn’t the issue here. The issue is doing what’s best for a fair and competitive environment.

For starters, I’d suggest two stage bans if we’re going to have a stage list this large. Secondly, simply looking at MLG rulesets doesn’t cut it for two reasons:
1. They dropped smash ages ago.
2. As a company out to make profit, they paid a lot of attention to their audience and what looks good. Nothing wrong with that, but it does take away some of their credibility.

On to the stages I deemed unfair by not mentioning them before (AKA stages we don’t use anymore):

Princess Peach´s Castle, Onett & Green Greens:
I’m lumping the three of them together for several reasons. All three of them have interferences (Bullet Bill, cars, bombs and apples, respectively). All three of them turn matches into a game of wallcamping. All three of them heavily favour Fox. I could maybe live with one of them, but not all three. We don’t have enough stage bans for that.

Someone (Faab) also compared them to Mute City, which I disagree with. Mute City is mostly good for Peach and Jigglypuff, but is a viable counterpick against space animals for characters like Marth as well. It’s true it has a stage hazard (cars), which is why it’s optional in our country. It doesn’t have walls however and isn’t dominated by one single character.

Corneria:
Wallcamping, Arwings shooting you in the back. For Melee, I could see it allowed. Not for Brawl, because of all the wall infinites (the SBR will have it banned in their next ruleset).

Poke Floats:
This stage is really different and good for characters with high mobility. Banning this stage is mostly based on philosophy. There’s nothing overly broken about it, but at the same time there’s nothing like it in the entire game (Rainbow Ride is the closest).

Jungle Japes:
An extremely campy stage with Klaptraps that can kill you. Basically no other way to play this stage than camping.

I already covered stages that are only allowed in 2 vs 2 before. To recap: 2 vs 2 can end up in 1 vs 1 and those stages are considered broken in that situation.

Please get back to me.

Just jumping in to laugh at the Stage Striking System... It's the worst idea I have seen in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

Who the **** are you?

 

[Nizro]

So.. what's up with the 128limit.. that's like a sucker punch to the crotch for us that has paid alot of money to be able go to germany.. should we just travel there and don't do ****?.. should have notified about this earlier imo.. I'm hella poor and don't really feel like wasting money for something I won't be able to attend to.. (Sure the trip to Germany will be nice either way, but)

But really, foreign'ers should be first serve then germans, we are going to spend alot of money for this, compared to you guys living there..

-
About stages.. Pokefloats does give the upper hand to the creative mind.. so characters like Capt. Falcon will have a much easier time on this stage.. but really, it's a funny stage no matter the character you're using.. this one shouldn't be banned

 

[Vegard]

I like the stage strike solution, sounds fair to me at least.

So.. what's up with the 128limit.. that's like a sucker punch to the crotch for us that has paid alot of money to be able go to germany.. should we just travel there and don't do ****?.. should have notified about this earlier imo.. I'm hella poor and don't really feel like wasting money for something I won't be able to attend to.. (Sure the trip to Germany will be nice either way, but)

I agree :/ this was announced a little bit late, and how will you deny people on the list?

 

[Marc]

The procedure (taken from the SBR ruleset):

Set format (In Order of Procedure):
1. Opponents choose their characters for the first match
2. Opponents start the stage striking procedure
3. Each player may announce one stage to be banned for counterpicks of the set
4. The first game is played, using the stage chosen during step 2
5. The loser of the previous match announces the next match's stage from either the Starter Stage List or the Counter Stage List
6. The winner of the previous match chooses their character
7. The loser of the previous match chooses their character
8. Repeat steps 5-7 for all proceeding matches
*Double blind character selection may be called for the first match

 

[turtlecake]

This is ********

I'd rather stick with uck's current ruleset than use any of the ******** ideas I'm reading now.

On to the stages I deemed unfair by not mentioning them before (AKA stages we don’t use anymore):

Princess Peach´s Castle, Onett & Green Greens:
I’m lumping the three of them together for several reasons. All three of them have interferences (Bullet Bill, cars, bombs and apples, respectively). All three of them turn matches into a game of wallcamping. All three of them heavily favour Fox. I could maybe live with one of them, but not all three. We don’t have enough stage bans for that.


Corneria:
Wallcamping, Arwings shooting you in the back. For Melee, I could see it allowed. Not for Brawl, because of all the wall infinites (the SBR will have it banned in their next ruleset).

Poke Floats:
This stage is really different and good for characters with high mobility. Banning this stage is mostly based on philosophy. There’s nothing overly broken about it, but at the same time there’s nothing like it in the entire game (Rainbow Ride is the closest).

Jungle Japes:
An extremely campy stage with Klaptraps that can kill you. Basically no other way to play this stage than camping.

I already covered stages that are only allowed in 2 vs 2 before. To recap: 2 vs 2 can end up in 1 vs 1 and those stages are considered broken in that situation.

How were you EVER in the back room.

 

[Zephynazo]

Even tho im not going to this tourny, i agree with marc's ruleset. It's actually way more fair, than having a bunch of gay stages that favours fox ALOOOOT!

Hara, if u drop in a topic like this and speak bs, atleast tell us why that solution is so bad >_> (geez)

I support M@RC!

Poke floats shouldn't be banned tho...

 

[turtlecake]

Princess Peach´s Castle, Onett & Green Greens are bad stages.


Poke Floats, Corneria, and Jungle Japes are completely fine.

The Klap Traps will not always kill you. SDI up if you're not a scrub.

 

[Zgetto]

All the counterpicks should be banned(except for battlefield) i really dont see why you would wanna play any of them stages on a high competitive level.
Plus mixed brawl and melee is serieus bull****, why would i wanna go 3 days if only one day is melee?
All this does is taking time, energie, money, people etc.. from each other so you get both events thats less good if it would be split.
And forced to pay for brawl? why should i pay for something im not gonna enter? hell no..
I quess im not going to this..

 

[turtlecake]

I quess im not going to this..

Why don't we just have a 3 day smashfest at Faabs or something lol

 

[°UÇK]

[...]
More stages means more fun for people like you, but this is a competitive tournament we're talking about.
[...]

I totally dig this one, especially the >people like you< part. anyway...


Stage Strike System

This is a way to pick the first stage. [...] Both players take turns striking from preferably 5 or 9 stages to end up with a stage for the first match. The order is 1221, which is why it's important to have either 5 or 9. 9 would allow for stages that would be banned all the time and takes more time, so we came up with these 5:

-Dream Land 64
-Final Destination
-Pokémon Stadium
-Battlefield
-Fountain of Dreams (Yoshi's Story in teams)

After the first match, you can choose to ban any of these stages and counterpicking will have more stages available. We're going to switch to this system in the Netherlands as well. This solves all problems anyone can have with the random select! No one likes to get screwed over by something they have 0 influence on after all...

Counterpicks

Since you want this to be liberal, I'd at least go with the following stages:

-Yoshi's Story
-Brinstar
-Kongo Jungle N64
-Mute City (banned in teams)
-Rainbow Cruise

Let's have a friendly discussion about whatever else you want added.

Thank you for the detailed explaination marc, this helped me a lot to understand Striking. I did not know about the 1221 systems which makes the number of 5 or 9 random stages plausible and the hole procedure more fair in general.

Coming from a liberal point of view at first sight I rather tended to go for the 9 stages instead of the 5. But since this is only applicable for the first random stage to be chosen and having a timeframe in mind 5 stages seems to be the better option.
Still there are 2 things bugging me:

Stages - as for the first 5 random stages, I would exchnage FoD with Yoshis Story. Both stages being in favor of Fox I see YS more balanced regarding other characters.
As for the counterpicks, I dislike having this little amount of counterpicks available. tell you what, I'll have Pokefloats, Kongo Jungle, Corneria and f*cked up Greens Greens in the list of counterpicks but i'll give you players the option to ban 2 stages. Stagebanning 2 stages in the 1221 fashion would make "double blind stage ban" unnecessary as well.

Striking being mandatory - I think players still should have a choise on wether to go for striking or the stage ban. If both players agree on stage banning they can go for it otherwise striking would be automatically enforced.
Having 5 random stages for the stage ban system would be to much imo, having FD, PS and DL64 are the most apropraite ones in this case. But i would like to have the rest of the counterpicks in place alongside with the option of banning 2 stages per player. (out of the 14 available)
[/COLOR]

The Attendants Limit:
The limit of 38 is not in place to dismiss the foreigners who already expressed their interest in this event and of course people already booked are not affected by this at all (i was adressed regarding this matter so i thought i should mention). This is supposed to be a HYPE-BLOCKER!
there are still 2 months to go and still more interested coming which I'm not so happy about. the interested adresses have exceeded the amount the potential attendants places by far. Expecting about 1/3 not to show up I gave in some time ago by allowing more people to come which was a mistake in the first place.

This "enforcement" is not here to stay. I'm happy about the internationals coming here and normally people who booked flights tend to show up instead of the locals who call themselves confirmed. Therefore I will allow more foreigners (probably +15). But not at this moment in time and please, dont tell anybody I told you so (lol).
I hope this makes sense for you.



I'm a trainee and work/school alongside with girlfirend and life in general is keeping me busy. i planned to use the whole sunday for doing organisation stuff. so expet some changes on that day.

 

[Slhoka]

How were you EVER in the back room.

Maybe he showed he could explain his point of view about what matters for smash tournaments with an open mind and logic. He backed up his point of view with arguments and doesn't just say that the others' point of view is ********. And he'll accept the fact you have a different point of view, even if he disagrees.
In short, he can express his views in a debate, and I believe that is one of the the most important things in order to be a member of the Smash BR (besides the smash knowledge, of course).

As for the stages discussion, I don't really care. I'd like to add more stages, but I can't find any other than FD/DL64/BF/YS/FoD/PS that could really fit my vision of Melee as a competitive game. So I'm obviously in favor of the most conservative possibility of Marc's list.
However, I don't care what ruleset will be enforced at this tournament. I'm not a good player, and I'll end up too far in the bracket or in the pools to care. Loosing on a stage which isn't made for competition wouldn't please me of course, but if it happens, I'll just john and nothing more. It won't change anything about me having fun or not.
If the host and many players think we should have more stages, that's OK, the results will tell whether it is a good choice or not. If too many people place higher/lower than they should, then it may be explained by an unfair stage ruleset. This ruleset isn't total bullcrap (well, according to me, it is, but according to many others, it isn't), so it may be a good choice to go with it. In this case, it would be necessary to have an important feedback about it and use it to determine if it was a good idea to use it (and whether it should be applied or not for the following tournaments).

****, I'm not going anywhere with this post.

In short : do what you want, I really don't care personally. However, whatever you do, make sure you analyse how good it was, and use this analysis to learn how you can make your tournaments better.


The attendants limit is pretty bad news, especially for foreigners, but I can understand you don't want this to get out of hands for your first tournament.
On a side note, may I have the right to be included in the "german" category thanks to my stay in the marvellously awesome city of Berlin and my ****ty german skills ?

Edit : Showers = awesome, good job for finding them.

 

[Nihonjin]

Hope the whole 128 limit thing goes well...~___~

 

[turtlecake]

Hope the whole 128 limit thing goes well...~___~

You're still coming to this?

 

[peyudosmith]

All the counterpicks should be banned(except for battlefield) i really dont see why you would wanna play any of them stages on a high competitive level.
Plus mixed brawl and melee is serieus bull****, why would i wanna go 3 days if only one day is melee?
All this does is taking time, energie, money, people etc.. from each other so you get both events thats less good if it would be split.
And forced to pay for brawl? why should i pay for something im not gonna enter? hell no..
I quess im not going to this..

yesz! thumbs up for miguel!

I hope we see you at epita man

 

[Fuzzyness]

Amsah you're going right?

 

[Faab]

Wow just melee on saturday ...
Skip brawl singles or teams if you want to have enough time to finish everything on time. And start the melee pools on friday. Or skip brawl entirely whatever floats youre boat.

Seeing as uck is quite a stubborn guy, at least get rid of

Counterpick:
• Princess Peach´s Castle <------------
• Corneria
• Rainbow Ride
• Green Greens <--------------
• Brinstar
• Onett <--------------------
• Mute City <--------------------
• Poke Floats
• Battlefield
• Kongo Jungle 64
• Jungle Japes <-------------------------

 

[turtlecake]

Keep mute city

for more lolz

 

[Requiem]

Wow just melee on saturday ...
Skip brawl singles or teams if you want to have enough time to finish everything on time. And start the melee pools on friday. Or skip brawl entirely whatever floats youre boat.

Seeing as uck is quite a stubborn guy, at least get rid of

Counterpick:
• Princess Peach´s Castle <------------
• Corneria
• Rainbow Ride
• Green Greens <--------------
• Brinstar
• Onett <--------------------
• Mute City <--------------------
• Poke Floats
• Battlefield
• Kongo Jungle 64
• Jungle Japes <-------------------------

Haha saying "atleast get rid of" and than pointing to half of the list xD

The only ones I see that would really need to go (but this is comming from pure reading, watching video's and just thinking about it, since I'm a tourny nub) are Jungle Japes, Onett, Peach' castle and corneria..

If I would really do it my way I'd agree with Faab, except for Mute City, but let's not forget we're gonna be guests in another country.

I'm all for Marcs ruleset, though I would like to include mute city, and brinstar in the list...

 

[Luma]

faabs list + keeping mute city (you ****er, dont be scared =P)

 

[Lawrencelot]

Uck is not stubborn, people who call ideas ******** without explaining why are stubborn. I agree with the stage striking with 5 stages, but also with what Uck mentioned: "stage strike with 5 stages, but with more counterpicks". Those counterpicks should then definately not include Onett and Peach castle and Green greens, and also not Jungle Japes and Corneria, and preferably not Poke Floats, that's my opinion on the counterpicks.

 

[Vegard]

Completely agreed with Faab. Start Melee singles pools on friday and cut down on the Brawl events.

 

[(Prince) Shadow]

i think i won't go t this tourney..
i hear to much about weird rules and random shouts about cutting brawl down for melee's sake.

but i'll make up my mind when the hosts do that too.

 

[Samochan]

Tourneys are run in shorter time spans, it would be very unfair for the brawl players to cut down the brawl tourneys. Just organize the tournament well and it's good to go, really. If people don't slouch, 3 days is enough for all these events. Melee low tiers is the one that is the least important out of the bunch, so it should be left till sunday.

 

[Vegard]

Samo: what are you talking about? "tourneys are run in shorter time spans" bla bla, where is this taken from - a 15 man Finnish tournament? "Just organize the tournament well and it's good to go, really" - that **** is crap. First time hosting a tournament, not only local but an international one too. "Just organize it well"? What the ****, it's a looot better to do it safe and run a couple less tourneys to make sure time will be no issue.

 

[Marc]

She's right in saying stuff like Melee low tier has to go before Brawl. If it becomes a choice between Brawl singles and teams, I'd go with teams. It takes much less time to host (very important) and is more fun IMO (also for people who don't really like Brawl).

 

[Askeflink]

Yeah I agree, Brawl teams before Brawl singles, and though I like LT more we can't just quit on the Brawlers.

I don't like you guys taking away all the cool stages. Keep some of them please. ó_ò

Meh, I like Onett.

 

[Nihonjin]

You're still coming to this?

Yeah, unless the people I'm traveling with decide not to go anymore. =]

 

[.tea©]

I think it will be hard to stick to the schedule. Furthermore it sucks that Brawl Singles are on Sunday because many people need to get their train or w/e ealier than this will be finished. Just think of the ~100+ participants.

Melee Low Tier on Friday night and Melee Teams at 9 pm? I have heard there are people in existence who need to sleep.

 

[Samochan]

Oh god, 8:30 brawl singles? Have mercy please, no earlier than 9 am. We smashers need our sleep after a night full of casual matches ;<

 

[Askeflink]

How will the lockable room be accessed? I'll have to ask you whenever I need it opened?

 

[Fuzzyness]

awesome, can't wait to see you again amsah..and we can finally sit and play >_> unlike every other tourney..even when i was in holland xD

 

[VilNess]

I heard that Samo and neutroni have a place to stay for thursday-friday.
If I came with them could I enjoy the same benefits?
I hope this isn´t asked too much or somthing. I´d like to meet faab, ryuker and rest of the backstreet boys again

 

[Lawrencelot]

I've already asked this, and it was answered but I don't think it was confirmed. I am in need of housing for the night after the tournament, it is for 2 people. I'm not booking tickets or something so I'm not in a rush, but I'd like to see it confirmed that this is possible so I know whether I can come or not.

 

[milkieee]

omg amsah is comin' ??!
this is goin' 2b really niceeeee !! =D

btw. does any1 from ger want a money match ?? =)

 

[VA]

I'm super excited about this. I want to play RaynEx is fox dittos so hard.

 

[Zephynazo]

For some reason, i don't think Amsah will win this tournement.... Mmmm.... Don't ask me why

 

[Smasher89]

Onett> Green greens (other name fox only, camping destination lol)when it comes to balance, peach castle could be like 50/50 for/against a ban, due to "something" in the stage that might lead to some camping XD

Just keep all three or get rid of GG IMO XD

 

[Luma]

onett is as bad as green greens, perfect fox stage at everything

 

[Askeflink]

I love falcoing that stage. = / buu for stritch rules, gotta keep some variety and fun IMO.