Data "Smash Ain't no Joke" - Little Mac Matchup Discussion Thread

[TheReflexWonder]

I think that Luigi will have a very difficult time. F-Tilt will probably do wonders for walling him out (seriously, this move is nuts), and you can always just...walk away when he goes into the air. Probably not very difficult to punish his landings, and he doesn't really have the horizontal aerial mobility to easily avoid the KO Punch.

 

[Illuvial]

Little Mac's toughest match-ups so far (in my limited experience) are Peach and Rosalina. Little Mac loses to most characters thanks to his awful recovery, but on the stage he can fair and go toe to toe with pretty much anyone, even the Peach and Ros. He's hellishly fun, an't wait to play with him again

If any Little Mac Mains wanna play some rounds and talk about some things, my FC is in my sig and my Skype is Illuvial FGC (make sure you tell me you're from Smashboards)

 

[UltiMario]

^Man I was gunna post that exact same thing.

I've fought a LOT of people that switch to a campy character, and just sit at the edge trying to screw up Little Mac, but ultimately that's a strategy that just doesn't work. Out of the characters I've played where the match-ups felt incredibly difficult were the mentioned Peach and Rosalina, but additionally Pikachu is hell on earth. Pikachu ducks under Ftilt (one of your best options in soooo many situations) USmash, and FSmash during most his animations, is impossible to gimp, has a projectile, and can punish you for trying to go high while recovering with Thunder, Ftilt you if you try to Side-B onto the stage, or just chase you into the pit if you go low and go for Up-B. If you get far enough off the stage to need to use a recovery move, your stock is over if the Pikachu knows how to edgeguard. You can't out-camp Pika, approaching is very difficult, and you're going to die early every stock. It's not unwinnable, but it's an extremely easy counterpick against Mac.

 

[Mienaikage]

How do people feel about Little Mac vs. Greninja? The water shooting from Up B seems very unfriendly to Little Mac D:

 

[SevenYearItch]

How do people feel about Little Mac vs. Greninja? The water shooting from Up B seems very unfriendly to Little Mac D:

Greninja's UpB is a bit of a fit, but otherwise I have no issues with Greninja. Him and Sheik I can dispatch of pretty easily by punishing the needle camping and then making smart reads.

My big issue? Peach, Rosalina, and Palutena. All three seem to be able to tear me up pretty easily. I also got worked over by a Fox pretty easily with lasers. Plus their "rolling" is OP as hell and gives them a very good movement option against my hyper offensive Mac.

 

[Nat Goméz]

How do people feel about Little Mac vs. Greninja? The water shooting from Up B seems very unfriendly to Little Mac D:

Mmm... the match isn't that hard if you have him close to you, if he is far and start spaming the quick shuriken you can shield one of them and exactly after that you just roll toward him, in the first roll you'll be exactly behind his next shuriken and in the other roll you'll be behind him (punish him hard)

If you just want to show him you don't care about his quick quick shuriken just jab to the air, yeah, Little Mac's jab can cancel most of the weak projectiles like his quick shuriken, Link's arrows, Mario's fireballs, Samus uncharged blaster and his rockets, Zero suit zamus's stun gun, even destroy Villager's Lloyd Rocket just by jabbing or ftilt'ing to the air. Of course, it won't work with all of the projectiles (it did't work with Pit's charged arrows, and i dont have all the characters unblocked so i need to test it more).

If he charges his shuriken shiled it or dodge it, be aware that he have a counter too, shield if you see his shadow coming to you, be really careful with his grabs cause if he sends you offstage and do that up b thing you're almost doomed, always try to stay center stage (this is more general for all the matches), ftilt is your best friend if he comes runing towards you, if he jumps over you and dair punish it with your umash, time it right and counter when he try to juggle you or gimp you.

Do this things and i think you'll be fine. I haven't loose a game againts him in For Glory, sometimes he gave me a hard time with things i couldn't react though, so be careful.

 

[NOSTK]

Palutena is a great match-up for Little Mac. None of her moves can keep Mac out for long, and she doesn't have the speed to run away. Not only that, once Mac gets in, her throws are too weak to toss him back out. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a 7-2 in Mac's favour.

However, I find Sonic to beat Little Mac. Sonic has a great air game and great mobility. Sonic can easily keep Mac in the air, and the only way to get out from what I find is to do a well timed counter and hope for the best.

 

[New_Dumal]

I played vs. L.Mac with characters that I know play at least "okay" (in terms of spacing, follow-up's ...).
They are : Mario, Sheik, Villager, Dark Pit/Pit, Ike.
I played with MK too , but MK is very different this time around and I don't want to say useless impressions.

That's my early opnion (and you know the truth about early opnions) :

Vs : A hard-game for both parts. I will say that I feel that's something like 60/40, but I be it can be the opposite. Mario has a very strong grab game, with powerfull follow-ups for throws. At very low %, UpThrow leads to more options than DThrow, since the Utilt string is not guaranteed too far.
But Mario can still Utilt to Up+B very easily , and Mario's UpB is a serious threat to L.Mac because give much damage, is linked from a lot of attacks, and put him more time in air than L.Mac should like. DTilt leads to Up+B and more too. If L.Mac hits Mario's shield, Mario can build damage easily with Throws->Aerials or punish hard with USmash/DSmash (I think it's not guaranteed, but happens a lot). Mario FThrow and BThrow puts L.Mac in very bad spots, that look worse when you remember the great tools Mario has to edge-guard (F.L.U.D.D , Bair...)
Now... My problems with Mario against L.Mac : L.Mac does much more damage than Mario with his attacks, and is much faster in the ground. L.Mac movement is so superb that if both are in the ground, this MU is not even close from even. L.Mac usually punish hard every Mario stupid decision in approach or error in spacing. L.Mac should be the one to play agressively while they are in the groud, without doubt. L.Mac dash grab is great, and Mario players will try hard to get some shield-grab, being grabbed themselves a lot (this MU is a grab-festival). Super-armor moves destroy half of Mario's possibilities in the ground, and the correct spacing should destroy the other half.Sometimes I don't even know how I was hitted by L.Mac, because of how his super-armor moves work and their speed. When you're out of the ground, use counter. I get so countered in this MU... I say L.Mac should counter in that situations when Mario spacing will not allow him from do a fast second atack in L.Mac or a frame-trap would kill L.mac (what happens a lot). L.Mac should EVER VI up or diagonally-up against 70% of the Mario's moves.L.Mac eats Fireballs in breakfast with his Side-B.
Special tips for : Play patient. Grab all the hard ending-lag moves that L.Mac uses against you and build damage.Your Up+B is your best friend.
Special tips for : Play just in the ground, play agressive. Grab/Dash Grab > Shield+Grab. Vector up in almost everything ,K.O move from any atack in your shield.


vs : I win more with Mario than with Sheik against L.Mac. But it's completely my fault, this MU is 70 /30 or more for Sheik. Sheik is a very strong character in Smash 4 because he is fast, combo-ish, and has a pretty solid kill move.
The problem is that L.Mac don't has tools to break Sheik's combos, suffers against one of the best edge-guards of the game, suffers against projectile game, suffers against almost anything Sheik does. My problem in this MU is that I play too agressively with Sheik. Sheik is light, and L.Mac is very dangerous for light and agressive enemies. But at high distance combat, there's nothing L.Mac can do against Sheik projectiles. Sheik has pretty good follow-ups in L.Mac, like his FTilt string to Down+B/Fair, Nair->Jab (at low %) , DThrow->UAir,FThrow->Fair, UTilt to Fair, DTilt->Anything ... Just know that there will be combos.
The good things in this MU is that L.Mac has the counter to deal with not guaranteed follow-up, and superarmor to deal with the projectiles at medium-distance. L.Mac MUST stay close from sheik, but with caution. Here Sheiks wins at range (Mario not). You has no option if Sheik goes next to the ledge than be medium/close distance from him, try to recover fast as possible if back throwed. Don't counter-suicide... I attacked counter 2 times exactly to kill L.Mac. I don't know much more to say, honestly. If Sheik is too confident, abuse your power, punish him in any possible way. Try early kills,reads... because you will need this.
Special tips for : Play safe and you will be okay.You can build damage easily, edge guard easily, and follow up many moves to Bouncing fish, what will end L.Mac stock.
Special tips for : Avoid this MU if you can. Medium distance is the best option to punish wrong projectiles uses.Try to land early kills eating some Sheik options with super-armor, don't make anything too dangerous at low %.


I'm just a decent Brawl and P:M player who gets Smash 4 and play against L.Mac a lot of times.

This is what I can say for now, I hope it helps someone. I will make my Dark Pit/Pit, Villager and Ike, if you like this.
(In my early opnion, they are all positive to L.Mac , except maybe Pit/Dark Pit)
If someone discover a worse MU than Sheik to L.Mac , please tell me.
I want to play against L.Mac with more advantage as I can.

 

[Venks]

I wrote a guide on fighting Little Mac after being asked for tips so many times. In it I definitely point out Sheik and Ness as being pretty strong contenders against Little Mac. Essentially any character that can throw Little Mac and follow up with more than one hit and easily force the boxer off of the stage.

Against Sheik I really suggest making yourself as hard to grab as possible. Stick to forward tilt for pressure and play safe. As for Ness avoid that PK Fire like the plague. The move doesn't have too much range in front of Ness, but if you're dashing in it is pretty easy to get hit by it and then combo'd off the stage.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

My brother is a Marth main and I've played a bunch of games against him. We used to go back and forth a lot but I've figured it out and now I win every time

Marth Matchup:
If you are unfamiliar with this match up then you're gonna have a tough time at first. But it gets fairly easy once you get it. Marth is going to try to space and poke often to get tippers. Marth's think their disjointed hitboxes reign supreme in this match up and they do...in the air but we're not gonna do that lol. Marth has no projectile so he must approach you. That's the first win in any match up vs Little Mac. The match up is all about spacing. Marth has a great grab range. His throws almost always put you off the stage. If you space correctly there's nothing Marth can do. Pressure him with Ftilts. Ftilt is very fast with little lag so he doesn't get an opportunity to produce offense and will be rolling around to escape the pressure. Ftilt also clanks with Marth's Fsmash!! If that happens throw another Ftilt because you just frame trapped them.

If they start to roll around to avoid you Dsmash will catch em almost every time. If you whiff they usually can't punish in time. Because of super armor you can throw out Fsmashes when you want and Usmashes against aerials. Edgeguarding Marth is tough. If one recovers low you can't Dsmash because of the sword and speed of Up B. They should always recover low if they value their life. If not a good Fsmash should finish them or K.O. punch if you have it. If they grab ledge, you don't have many options. You can bait a getup attack and either Fsmash or roll back and dash attack. NEVER COUNTER. If you counter the getup attack you'll shoot off the stage and die. I usually let them return to stage and continue Ftilt pressure near the ledge.

Counter is a mother... If you're overly aggressive counter can quickly put you at an extreme disadvantage. It has a lot of knockback and can put you offstage for a gimp. If you're offstage recover high with side b if possible. If not try to side JUST below the ledge. You can avoid Dtilt and grab. Slip counter is not a good option unless they continuously try to gimp. If they hit you, you fly back to the stage. If not, you're dead.

Hopefully this helps anyone who may be interested or having trouble with the Marth match up. The game is still fresh so some of the details could change later but this works for me. Keep up the hard work Mac mains!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mac beats marth imo. Mac can abuse safe moves. Marth cannot.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Exactly! Once I learned that, Marth became pretty easy to beat

 

[Jacob29]

I feel like Shulk beats Mac so easily.

He manages to counter 1 of your moves and its a lost game.

 

[Nat Goméz]

I feel like Shulk beats Mac so easily.

He manages to counter 1 of your moves and its a lost game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knhe...op&persist_app=1&hl=es&gl=US&client=mv-google

This video does not agree with you. I also think that the characters with more lag in their moves are the ones in more danger against Mac because of his easy way to punish on the ground and because Mac's punishes are hard.

Oh my god i had the greatest time!

Ok now i'll try to bring my experience from some MUs here.

I fought a Toon Link today and he did that strategy of being in the edge and wait for you to go while throwing lots of projectiles. Well, i was able to cancel them all with my jab! So Little Mac's jab can cancel TL's arrows and TL's boomerang, the only thing you can't cancel is he's bombs... that you can shield them, and when he knew that he's projectiles didn't work against him he got close enough and i ftilt and smash him to death.

Then he picked up Luigi and at first he rushed me down and i was like "What?" Free Ftilt, then he did the same strategy but just with Luigi Fireballs and i was canceling them all with Mac's jab and pressuring him to his death with ftilts, but when i take out his first stock the most random and funniest thing happend... he returned to the stage, slowly walked to the edge, walked off the stage and suicide himself! XD Oh God i know is a bad thing to do but i just can't help Laughing! X'D

Againts a Mario you Just CAN'T let him grab you, his combo game is insane and he can take you from 0 to 40-50% with a dthrow if he knows what his doind, also Cape and FLUUD = Your Death.

Other than that is really easy because you can cancel all his camp abilities with your jab and without that his better way to approach is over.

Runs towards you trying to grab you / attack you = ftilt is the answer.
Jumps over you trying to aerial approach you = usmash / dsmash / up b are the perfect answers. You will be using the three of them depending of the situation.

Other than that Mario doesn't have to many more options. Sometimes he will try to FLUUD you offstage if you're on the edge so, as always, try to stay center stage as much as you can. With that i think we have this MU.

Tonight i also fought three other REALLY good players, and with that they were exactly Duck Hunt, Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, and yeah, it was a nightmare.

In a scale of dificulty for Mac (one highest, three easiest) i would say...:

1- Duck Hunt.
2- Sheik.
3- ZSS.

Zero Suit Samus wasn't that hard actually, he was a really good player though because he knew how combo well and knew how to take me offstage and gimp me to death. But i still won 2 out 3 matches.

First is his Combo of stun gun > grab > dthrow > fair > fair. Is a really good combo and is also really safe so most of the times she'll try to do this to you from the beginning.

But well i can confirm that Little Mac's jab can cancel her Stun Gun no matter how charged it is, so she can take that out of her inventory. Another of she's safest moves is the laser whip thing cause it has kill power, racks up damage at distance and if she do it from max distance she's safe... well the thing is that you can cancel the hitbox from his laser whip with your jab too! :D (my god i never would of though this move only would be so useful) but this works if she does it from max distance (need to test it more from other distances) but if you see her doing it closer to you then you can dodge to her and punish with dsmash or directly fsmash and punch through it, the move is no longer safe if she do it close to you.

Other than that she's other ways to approach to you is dash and dash attack that is easily punishable with ftilts, dash to grab that is easily punishable with dodge to dmash, SH to laser whip that's easily punishable with shield to fsmash and other aerials from above that not so easy but punishable with Mac's usmash.

Other than that you should never leave her get you in the air, she's aerials are to good and other thing, she would benefit A LOT for stages with platforms, so maybe it was easy because of this FD only and Little Mac's dominance in the ground.

I was going to talk about Sheik and Duck Hunt but i don't have enough time now, maybe later but one thing i can surely say, they were leaving nightmares.

 

[papagenos]

my most difficult mac opponent has been king dedede and bowser (though that may just be because the kid who plays bowser in my group is very good and bowser is already really strong in this game). sheik is also somewhat difficult but the kid who plays sheik is only average where i am so 9 times out of 10 i come out on top, though every once in a while i find it difficult.

 

[Jacob29]

well that Shulk's idea of an edgeguard appeared to be

- Charged Dsmash
- Charged Fsmash

Shulk is strong against mac where he can go offstage and dair him fairly easily.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Well... is true that he has a crazy range but.... almost all of his attacks have start-up and lag, if he does that to you you could simply get close to him, slowly of course, and when you are on his range of attack you should just shield his smash, and then fmash him, as simpleas that. And even if the attack pushes your shield you're still on time to run towards him and usmash him because of his lag.

About the dair i cannot disagree with you, but firstly you shouldn't be there. And even more if shulk's way to rack up damage to you is this, because this strategy is punishable quite a lot.

 

[Jacob29]

I don't really think you can argue that Shulk doesn't beat Mac because "you shouldn't be offstage".

It is never my plan to go offstage, but a good spotdodge from him here, a good counter there and we go flying off.

Ofc all my thoughts are just beginner thoughts and I will try to incorporate what you have said.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Yeah i know man, i do think that Shulk beats Mac offstage (and almost anyone with that bair) and i know that to be offstage is as easy as a grab (didn't say it in the bad way, if you took it bad i'm sorry .-.) but you should be out-ranging this grabs with your ftilt, in the video shows how an aerial approach can be countered with an usmash, doing the other things about the strategy and i know if you say counter probably is for a dash atack or a smash attack because he can see this ones coming, for characters with counters you should be sticking to your quickest attacks and tilts and doing smashes just when you're sure they will connect safely (for punishes most of the times)

For him to counter a ftilt or a jab he should be doing counter from after you even do the attack because this moves doesn't have almost any start-up, putting himself in a even more dangerous position, receiving the attack, or getting pressure on his shield.

I don't mean Shulk doesn't beat Mac because you shouldn't be offstage, i mean that if you play Little Mac right and use you're tools it should be really difficult for Shulk to get you offstage.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I don't really think you can argue that Shulk doesn't beat Mac because "you shouldn't be offstage".

It is never my plan to go offstage, but a good spotdodge from him there, a good counter there and we go flying off.

Ofc all my thoughts are just beginner thoughts and I will try to incorporate what you have said.

I have to admit... Characters that can counter are tough for Mac. Counter moves have great knockback and sometimes are kill moves at high percent. If someone catches you with a counter, you're pretty much offstage even from the middle. Then they can gimp. Counter moves kill momentum and I hate being caught by them. You just have to be patient and bait the counter and punish. Counter moves usually have an up angled trajectory. Use that to your advantage and recover high with side b

 

[C_I_N]

Very Hard for me to say which matchups I feel Little Mac is strong in as I think he is just more easily able to brute force opponents down with less finesse. So it feels like right now I'm winning my games against opponents that aren't necessarily the best, and somebody more skilled in disadvantageous matchups would be able to punish me more.

 

[C_I_N]

Also, I'd say Little Mac v Donkey Kong is about 60/40. I lost against one in a recent tourney that had a lot of experience coming into the match from playing with his brother, vs my complete inexperience against Smash 4 Donkey Kong.

The weight and good horizontal recovery of DK gives him a strong staying power as your ground moves stale out later in the stock and make executing a kill potentially frustrating. That said, what I failed to take advantage of and what I believe to be Little Mac's hidden weapon in this MU is his counter. Most of DK's kill moves are fairly telegraphed and as long as you keep the rolling to a minimum to avoid Ground Pound punish, DK ends up being pretty 2 dimensional.

Final note, like it even needs to be said, DK's off stage camp is really strong with back air and is probably his strongest tool to shut down Little Mac in this MU.

 

[Venks]

Also, I'd say Little Mac v Donkey Kong is about 60/40. I lost against one in a recent tourney that had a lot of experience coming into the match from playing with his brother, vs my complete inexperience against Smash 4 Donkey Kong.

The weight and good horizontal recovery of DK gives him a strong staying power as your ground moves stale out later in the stock and make executing a kill potentially frustrating. That said, what I failed to take advantage of and what I believe to be Little Mac's hidden weapon in this MU is his counter. Most of DK's kill moves are fairly telegraphed and as long as you keep the rolling to a minimum to avoid Ground Pound punish, DK ends up being pretty 2 dimensional.

Final note, like it even needs to be said, DK's off stage camp is really strong with back air and is probably his strongest tool to shut down Little Mac in this MU.

I don't know about this. I haven't explored the match up enough to really call it one way or the other, but it's worth noting that DK's down special shuts down a lot of Little Mac's options. Also DK doesn't need his smash attacks to KO Little Mac. DK's tilts build up damage quick and have pretty decent knock back. It really doesn't take much for DK to send light-weight Little Mac too far from the stage to recover.
Another thing you have to remember is DK also has super armor on his up special. DK has some good tools for fighting our favorite boxer. I think we need to see more matches pairing the two before we start talking numbers.

 

[C_I_N]

I don't know about this. I haven't explored the match up enough to really call it one way or the other, but it's worth noting that DK's down special shuts down a lot of Little Mac's options. Also DK doesn't need his smash attacks to KO Little Mac. DK's tilts build up damage quick and have pretty decent knock back. It really doesn't take much for DK to send light-weight Little Mac too far from the stage to recover.
Another thing you have to remember is DK also has super armor on his up special. DK has some good tools for fighting our favorite boxer. I think we need to see more matches pairing the two before we start talking numbers.

Sorry, I actually was just trying to post a bunch of stuff so I could post links and rushed to make this assessment. I posted some videos from a recent tourney I was in and the winners finals as well as the grand finals were both DK v Lil Mac. I did experience trouble with both the down special and super armor on the up special as you mentioned, but as the matches progressed I improved against both of these. Even with minimal(literally zero I believe lol) use of counter as long as I maintained spacing I was able to outtrade DK consistently on the ground. My biggest shortcomings in this match are pretty obvious, I side B recover onto stage and get punished a whole lot where counter recovery would have been a lot safer. Add in the fact that the winners finals was my first time playing a DK in smash 4 and the DK player's brother was a Lil Mac main(Played in the losers finals) so he had a lot of experience in the match up.

That said, my end assessment is basically what I put in my original post, I felt I did pretty well in the matchup on the ground and my lack of recovery diversity is where I was punished the most. It was clear to me that I wasn't making use of all my options, and not a lack of them.

 

[Venks]

Sorry, I actually was just trying to post a bunch of stuff so I could post links and rushed to make this assessment. I posted some videos from a recent tourney I was in and the winners finals as well as the grand finals were both DK v Lil Mac. I did experience trouble with both the down special and super armor on the up special as you mentioned, but as the matches progressed I improved against both of these. Even with minimal(literally zero I believe lol) use of counter as long as I maintained spacing I was able to outtrade DK consistently on the ground. My biggest shortcomings in this match are pretty obvious, I side B recover onto stage and get punished a whole lot where counter recovery would have been a lot safer. Add in the fact that the winners finals was my first time playing a DK in smash 4 and the DK player's brother was a Lil Mac main(Played in the losers finals) so he had a lot of experience in the match up.

That said, my end assessment is basically what I put in my original post, I felt I did pretty well in the matchup on the ground and my lack of recovery diversity is where I was punished the most. It was clear to me that I wasn't making use of all my options, and not a lack of them.

I enjoyed watching your matches! But yeah DK didn't do too bad against you on the ground. In your 2nd match(you played Pac-Man at first) in the Grand Finals you lose your first stock and DK is only at 14%. He did a good job out ranging you with side and down tilts. He also stuffed a lot of your dash approaches with his own dash attack, Spinning Kong, and Hand Slap. Hand Slap has a lot of range and was stopping you in the middle of a lot of actions. You try to use Jolt Haymaker to get in, but due to poor spacing you still get hit a lot.

DK tried hitting you in the air after up throws, but your aerial dodges kept you safe. You definitely improved as you progressed throughout the tournament, but the ground via tilts and Hand Slap is how DK racked up so much damage on you.

Most of the time you're piling damage onto DK it's either because he threw out a fAir or bAir with really poor spacing or because you punished a get up attack as he pulled up from the ledge. His lack of mixing up his ledge recoveries played right into your habits as you usually go for side smashes at the ledge in all of your matches against everyone.

I'm not saying DK wins this match up. I'm just saying we need more quality footage like the stuff you provided.

 

[Venks]

Edit: Oops. Double posted by accident. Could a moderator delete this post?

 

[C_I_N]

I enjoyed watching your matches! But yeah DK didn't do too bad against you on the ground. In your 2nd match(you played Pac-Man at first) in the Grand Finals you lose your first stock and DK is only at 14%. He did a good job out ranging you with side and down tilts. He also stuffed a lot of your dash approaches with his own dash attack, Spinning Kong, and Hand Slap. Hand Slap has a lot of range and was stopping you in the middle of a lot of actions. You try to use Jolt Haymaker to get in, but due to poor spacing you still get hit a lot.

DK tried hitting you in the air after up throws, but your aerial dodges kept you safe. You definitely improved as you progressed throughout the tournament, but the ground via tilts and Hand Slap is how DK racked up so much damage on you.

Most of the time you're piling damage onto DK it's either because he threw out a fAir or bAir with really poor spacing or because you punished a get up attack as he pulled up from the ledge. His lack of mixing up his ledge recoveries played right into your habits as you usually go for side smashes at the ledge in all of your matches against everyone.

I'm not saying DK wins this match up. I'm just saying we need more quality footage like the stuff you provided.

Once again I agree with everything you mention, and we can look back to our other discussion about my poor spacing on approaches and lack of counter which I think would have gone a long way to getting a handle on DK's range/approach. Him knowing I wasn't countering made me way too easy to read so the match was an uphill battle from the start.

 

[nintyplayer]

The ONLY characters I've had trouble with as Mac are DHD, ZSS, Samus, and Ness.
I literally have not won a match against ZSS. There is nothing that Mac can do against stun -> grab -> uthrow -> any air attack. If I'm wrong, someone tell me. This usually results in me being 2-0'd.

 

[Venks]

The ONLY characters I've had trouble with as Mac are DHD, ZSS, Samus, and Ness.
I literally have not won a match against ZSS. There is nothing that Mac can do against stun -> grab -> uthrow -> any air attack. If I'm wrong, someone tell me. This usually results in me being 2-0'd.

I've yet to lose against Zero Suit Samus. ZSS's stun projectile is really slow. If you're playing cautiously it's not really hard to avoid. She definitely has the potential to be quite a problem as she has a lot of aerial mobility and her side B out ranges our attacks. That said she has limited options when ever you get in. A decent number of her attacks only hit the direction she's facing and not all of them are the fastest. Her grab is too slow to be a reliable shield-grab while shielding your jabs.

Getting close is definitely what works out for me the most, but do be careful in case she likes to down smash a lot. I just try to pay attention to how often she throws out her side Bs and stuns and work my way in by dashing in with shield. This is very vulnerable to her long reach grab, but you gotta get a feel for how often she throws that grab out as it is punishable if she whiffs.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I've finally came across a ZSS in For Glory. Very annoying but definitely winnable once you figure it out. I don't know the general strategy of ZSS vs Mac but there was a lot of stun gun -> dash attack going on. I lost a close first match just because it was unfamiliar. Game 2 I owned her. She relied on Stun Gun waaay too much. It got to the point where she thought I was always gonna get hit by it and ran in with a dash attack even when I blocked it. Then I would just grab. Getting in her face is the best option. She can't start using the stun gun on you. If she does do this: Dash attack in between her shots. If you are within range or just out of range, you can dash in and attack between shots. Worked just about every time for me. She's not that hard to beat actually

 

[Nat Goméz]

Her stun gun is another one that you can just jab and it'll disappear mid-air so she can't actually rely on that, or any of the combos that start with that thing.

But i also think she's "easy battle" mostly because of FD or omega stages, she's one of the ones that would take more advantage from platforms because of her aerials and air mobility.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

You know... I actually tried to jab and Ftilt through the shots. Maybe it's because I'm not used to doing it but I couldn't get it very consistently. I would stop one then the next two would hit. I guess I just need more practice with the timing. Idk. But it was to the point where I was better off just dodging or shielding them. Running in with a side b surprisingly worked almost every time.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Don't time it, you don't need to jab exactly when the shot is in front of you, you just need to let the jab button pressed ('A' button by default) and Mac will do fast hits to the air. You just need to wait for the shot to connect with your jabs.

Yeah i just tested it again and it worked ten out of ten times this way, and this is how i always do it ^.^ Sorry if i didn't explained that too well... but that's why i like jab more sometimes because is kinda "automatic".

And while doing this i also was able to confirm that his jab can also clash with her side b (the laser whip) and cancel it, wasn't sure because when you are too close to her (close for the laser whip to hit you but far enough for the jab to don't be able connect with her) it doesn't works in this exact distance but she'll never do it in this distance because is just too close for her and this close you can easily ftilt her or fsmash her anyways.

You can go training mode and try it

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Yeah I should probably use jab more than Ftilt since I can just hold the button and continually jab

 

[Oilpath99]

What do you guys think about vs

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bodies them.

 

[Vinylic.]

There was a gif that shows how problematic playing against is in one go.

Honestly, I'd prefer using lower movesets over moderate at most. I like using Dtilt a lot as it can mostly follow up with more concise readability for me. I'm gonna play some more against him, maybe find more juice to squeeze.

 

[Venks]

There was a gif that shows how problematic playing against is in one go.

Honestly, I'd prefer using lower movesets over moderate at most. I like using Dtilt a lot as it can mostly follow up with more concise readability for me. I'm gonna play some more against him, maybe find more juice to squeeze.

This player was really bad. He used KO Punch before Ness hit the ground after losing the shield.
Up smash has really solid range in front of and above Little Mac. But not all the way behind.
Forward tilt (and forward smash) have a "blind spot" of sorts. If you're standing next to your opponent then you will miss the attack because Little Mac steps forward before he throws out a fist.

These attacks would have missed regardless of who Little Mac's opponents were. Well the up smash might of still hit bigger characters, but the point still stands that all of these attacks were spaced exceptionally poorly.

 

[AvoiD]

A few matchups I feel the need to be discussed more.

Mii Gunner - Fire Pillar is an insane edgeguarding technique, as it's lasts about the same length as Ness' PK Fire. Space yourself correctly and use it against a recovering Mac, it's nearly impossible to grab the edge or recover without being punished.

Sheik - Though they can easily string combo's against us, I do think it's in our favor due to how early we can KO them. An 1/4 (Not KO) neutral B killed a fairly decent player at around 60%. I laughed lol. He was off stage coming back and since no airdodging into the ground anymore.. wrecked.

Rosalina - Having to face 2 chars at the same time is tricky. I'd say F-tilt the hell out of Luma, and then play accordingly to Rosa until another reappears. Her nair (or Fair, not sure which) is a crazy good gimp move. Easy for her to rack up damage, and her dair has an extended range to it. This is a tough matchup, not impossible though, but I'd say 50-50 at the least.

Greninja - I don't think there's a need to explain why it's a mu that needs debating. And I understand it's been talked about, but more indepth talk would be good.

Bowser Jr., D3, and Pac Man, and Palutena will also give us problems. I'll write more about why later, but just ideas for people who have had some experience to give their input about. Any is appreciated.

Need to talk more about different playstyles and what to expect when you go against others, not just things a specific person does. Make it more generalized. We all have our own style which makes us somewhat unique (besides those who assume LM has no skill and is literally smash - f-tilt - dash attack all day lel), but stop basing it off of own perspectives and how to approach/not approach a char, different baits or set ups, etc. Find a video detailing how to exactly play a certain char? Post it!

 

[CharZane]

Unless a character can remain permanently airborne and attack at-range, I don't think a 'good air game' is even relevant to a matchup against LM-- airdodge mechanics and slip counter make juggles a minimal problem for him regardless, and he certainly doesn't need aerials given his anti-air game. So, unless you're playing as Master Hand, 'good in the air' is about as irrelevant as a reflector against LM, unless you're specifically talking about gimping.

vs Robin feels like a particularly 'free win' matchup for LM, in any case. Charging a projectile isn't often feasible given LM's speed, Robin lacks a shield grab, Robin's dsmash barely even hits behind to punish that quick roll, and Robin's usual options are massively vulnerable to counter... which is remarkably safe given that there's no grabbing to worry about bar a dash grab or Nosferatu... but, given that Robin runs slower than Ganon, imagining a dash grab attempt just had Brawl-Sonic's voice echoing out... ('...too slow... ...too slow...').

I've played a few hundred games with Robin now, and I rather think the LM matchup feels like an unsolvable problem-- the tools to counteplay just don't seem to be there. Barring the absolute newbies to smash in general (who side B off the stage or whatnot), he can simply stick to safe moves (which, in this matchup, is almost all of them). Only Bair is much viable due to slip counter, in the air, and the jab combo is unusable due to the counter. That leaves tilts that can't interrupt Mac's hyper-armor, and a grab that won't reach from shield-- Robin's smashes are too slow to ever be a real option in the matchup. Edgeguarding, even, isn't that great, given Robin's slow follow-up speed and slip-counter vulnerability making the process far too variable.

Games I've won as Robin vs LM always feel to have been a result of facing someone who'd struggle with low level bots, rather than from any reads or tactics on my part. Now, granted, in For Glory the sheer quantity of LMs and their wildly varying skill levels is apt to color my perspective-- who knows, maybe there is some advantage I'm not noticing in my winning games... but, from my bit of testing, even switching to a character I've a tenth of the smash 4 practice with feels like I have 'more of a chance'.

I don't play very much LM, myself, but just thought I'd offer a bit about the main matchup I'm familiar with (if from the opposite side). I can second that the Marth matchup feels pretty even, if anything, rather than in the swordie's favor, though, the lack of a safe Fair given the missing c-stick could be the deciding factor there, as it denies Marth a safe option compared to LM. Might be a more difficult matchup for LM on the Wii U game.