Data "Smash Ain't no Joke" - Little Mac Matchup Discussion Thread

[Opossum]

This is where general matchup discussion for Little Mac should take place. We are currently trying to get specific character discussions going strong, and those will take place in their respective threads. When each specific matchup discussion has been covered pretty well, we will summarize it and list the links to the threads on this opening post.

Currently Discussing: Mario

Discussed Matchups
Shiek - Discussed June 30th - July 20th Not Summarized
Captain Falcon - Discussed July 27th - August 5th Not Summarized
Luigi - Discussed August 12 - August 26th Not Summarized
Link - Discussed September 2 - September 16 Not Summarized

• August 6th - A note from Son-in-Law: Any discussions that are not yet summarized will be in the near future. I'm going through a lot of lifestyle changes currently. Sorry and I appreciate your patience.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'll repeat what I said about Rosalina in her thread. It seems to me that Rosalina has an excellent grab -> throw -> follow up games, able to toss people into the Luma for powerful Smash attacks. (That is how I would design her, it remains to be seen what her moveset is actually like. Good throws with little knockback growth are an obvious choice for her, though, so I'm willing to bet that will be how she plays come SSB4 release.) Shield grabbing is Mac's bane, since it beats out super armor approaches and counters and so the match-up would essentially have to revolve around good spacing, avoiding grabs while maintaining pressure on Rosalina. It'll be tricky but fun.

I keep yakking about how Marth is Mac's counter, but I'm certain it's true. Marth's grab range has ranged from godlike to above average, his Melee range with his sword is back and his grab game looks to be making a comeback too. Large disjoint, grabs > super armor, a kit designed to gimp while Mac's recovery is awful ... I'm shivering just thinking about it. Expect an uphill battle when you fight Marth. DK's huge grab range is problematic for similar reasons.

Wii Fit Trainer v/s Little Mac is probably even-ish, she has better range and a better recovery, as well as a strong meteor. It'll revolve around Mac wanting to keep his feet firmly on the ground with Wii Fit trying to knock him off-stage, but having a tougher time doing it than Marth (who can probably FThrow -> FThrow -> FSmash you with ease ... *shudder*).

I'll put money on this statement: Mac beats Mega Man.

Disclaimer: We have very little info on the game, but speculation is fun.

 

[extremechiton]

rosalina seems reliant on luma at keeping people at bay, continuing combos, and blocking attacks.
since little mac has tons of super armor moves, he can easily get past luma. then on from there little macs quick movements, and attacks could easily over whelm rosalina, but if rosalina gets first hit after lil mac bypasses luma, she could juggle him with ease.

id say depending on who gets first hit, its 50/50
but lil mac is a fast faller, and rosalina is floaty.
its a hard mu to decide. gotta wait for the game to come out to do official testing.

 

[Morbi]

Traditionally, rush-down characters are superior if they can approach successfully. Zoners are more ideal if they can properly space themselves. It is really up to the player, typically the zoner doesn't have the burden to approach as they are content with keeping away. Their normals are much weaker and slower, so once the rush-down character is actually in, they tend to dominant. It really depends on player skill.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Little Mac can just run past the Luma. That will probably affect the matchup a lot.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Little Mac's biggest flaw will probably be his weakness to grab games. Because his attacks apparently have invincibility frames, opponents will likely resort to grabbing Little Mac to stop his attacks from being executed. This could put Little Mac at a serious disadvantage against grab abusers like King Dedede and the Ice Climbers.

Likewise, Rosalina could easily do a shield-grab, and punish Little Mac even further by having the Luma attack after she throws him.

Powerful perhaps, but Little Mac's best chances of winning will probably be against those who don't have the best grab games, which means that characters like Samus and Yoshi will probably be in trouble against him. On the other hand, Yoshi could easily counter Little Mac's invincibility frames with his Egg Lay move, which is usually Yoshi's better option for grabbing his opponents.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I think Little Mac on Rosalina is going to be annoying for her. And I mean it in a Melee Fox in your face annoying way.

I guess Rosalina could resort to grabbing since she MAY have twice the shots at it with her Luma and all. Then throw him off stage, where she has a few more tools at her disposal.

But it's almost safe to say that any Little Mac player will anticipate grab-games. It seems to be the only 100% way to successfully deal "damage" and at the same time get Mac into an uncomfortable position (offstage).

But overall, it seems to tip greatly into LM's favor, just because I can't picture Rosalina doing any good against a pressuring LM.

 

[Ividboy]

Yup marth seems to have this match up in the bag, when you are at a decent percent, say 50% or so, marth can f smash you once, send you a decent amount of distance of the stage( since little mac is most likely a lightweight character) and gimp your terrible air game and recovery easily.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yup marth seems to have this match up in the bag, when you are at a decent percent, say 50% or so, marth can f smash you once, send you a decent amount of distance of the stage( since little mac is most likely a lightweight character) and gimp your terrible air game and recovery easily.

Im not to sure in the little mac trailer i don't think marth's range will be to much of an issue since mac walts into links ground spin attack like nothing but i dont know where people are getting the who mac attack's then people grab him out. Its not like all his attack are that slow that you can do something like that.

 

[Platsy]

Mac vs Falcon would be an interesting match-up. Given the amount of super armor Mac has, I feel like he would have an advantage, but if Falcon has a good grab game, it would be around even.

 

[lami]

To go back to Marth, while he can definitely outspace him, Mac's super armor may help him get in. This leaves the Mac player only really having to keep an eye out for getting grabbed.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

To go back to Marth, while he can definitely outspace him, Mac's super armor may help him get in. This leaves the Mac player only really having to keep an eye out for getting grabbed.

You're forgetting how good an edge-guarder Marth is. I feel confident in asserting even this early that Mac-Marth is terrible for Mac.

 

[lami]

You're forgetting how good an edge-guarder Marth is. I feel confident in asserting even this early that Mac-Marth is terrible for Mac.

Marth's edge-guarding doesn't really matter. Mac's gonna have issues getting back to the ledge no matter what.

 

[Ragna22]

To me Little Mac's match ups are the most exciting thing about his inclusion because of how his games work, the way you fight opponents is by exploiting their weaknesses and if you're not afraid to take risks you'll be rewarded, that's exactly how Smash Bros and fighting games in general work so playing Smash 4 as Little Mac is identical to playing Punch Out, only you're not locked in one position.

As for me own match up predictions, honestly it's hard for me to come up with something cause Little Mac seems very balanced to me, the most I can think of is that he'll be very vulnerable against characters who are really good at juggling but even then, skilled Little Mac players will find a way to make use of his supposed garbage air game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Bad match ups:

All have either range advantage over Little Mac. Marth especially with his long ass Falchion. Donkey Kong also has significant range advantage over Little Mac. And both Marth and DK also have great aerial game. Am expecting Marth to be 7-3 advantagous over Little Mac, and DK 6-4.

Diddy and Toon Link are faster than Little Mac, and can really put pressure on him with their multiple projectiles. They are fast enough to get around Little Mac. Bananas and Boomerangs will create enough openings for Diddy and Toon Link to break Little Mac's defenses. Both also have far better aerial game than Little Mac, plus they can control him on the ground. To me that seems like obvious advantages.

Other potential treaths could be:

Their projectile game isn't as effective as Diddy or Toon Link's, but they are all just as fast, and could get a combo game going against Little Mac. These characters I could see as 55-45 or 6-4 match ups against Little Mac.

 

[Ragna22]

Bad match ups:

All have either range advantage over Little Mac. Marth especially with his long *** Falchion. Donkey Kong also has significant range advantage over Little Mac. And both Marth and DK also have great aerial game. Am expecting Marth to be 7-3 advantagous over Little Mac, and DK 6-4.

Diddy and Toon Link are faster than Little Mac, and can really put pressure on him with their multiple projectiles. They are fast enough to get around Little Mac. Bananas and Boomerangs will create enough openings for Diddy and Toon Link to break Little Mac's defenses. Both also have far better aerial game than Little Mac, plus they can control him on the ground. To me that seems like obvious advantages.

Other potential treaths could be:

Their projectile game isn't as effective as Diddy or Toon Link's, but they are all just as fast, and could get a combo game going against Little Mac. These characters I could see as 55-45 or 6-4 match ups against Little Mac.

I'd imagine Little Mac's parry would be very useful against Marth and DK at least if you're good at making reads.

 

[SpiderJerusalem]

What about Mac vs. the Spacies (well, currently, only Fox but likely Falco)? If Fox can get grabs on Mac, he can just u-throw > u-air for the kill

 

[Ragna22]

I'd imagine Little Mac's parry would be very useful against Marth and DK at least if you're good at making reads.

What about Mac vs. the Spacies (well, currently, only Fox but likely Falco)? If Fox can get grabs on Mac, he can just u-throw > u-air for the kill

Fox vs. Little Mac could go either way probably because they'll both be able to keep combos going for a while and I think Little Mac runs low enough to the ground that Fox's lasers won't be able to get him and if that is the case it'll be hard for fox players to play their zoning game against Mac.

 

[SpiderJerusalem]

Fox vs. Little Mac could go either way probably because they'll both be able to keep combos going for a while and I think Little Mac runs low enough to the ground that Fox's lasers won't be able to get him and if that is the case it'll be hard for fox players to play their zoning game against Mac.

yeah I recall Little Mac avoiding a projectile in the Direct while he was running

 

[extremechiton]

and macs running speed looks a little faster than diddy kongs.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Isn't it just a little bit early to predict matchups? I mean, we don't even have techniques for anyone yet.

Regardless of my skepticism...I'll just go in and say what I think will happen.

Good against:

Bad against:

So maybe mid-high tier?

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Isn't it just a little bit early to predict matchups? I mean, we don't even have techniques for anyone yet.

Regardless of my skepticism...I'll just go in and say what I think will happen.

Good against:

Bad against:

So maybe mid-high tier?

How in the world will little Mac do good against Olimar and Toon. Link? Olimar has his pikmin throw as well as a great long grab range. Lil Mac can be fast but if grabbed he's just gonna get combed for days so it could go even. Toon link I don't understand how lil Mac will beat him easily. Link I can see cause link is slow and bad in the air but toon link does most work from the air. Great projectiles, quick and great air capabilities. He can just camp lil Mac and force him to approach recklessly. Unlike megaman toon link still has many tools to use close range and quickly too. Reason why tink did bad against meta knight was because meta knight dominated both land and air. Lil Mac is just land and seems to be terrible in the air. So tink vs lil Mac could go even on who's the better player.

I can't really see Fox, Luigi, Mario, Shiek, Zelda and Yoshi having the advantage vs lil Mac. Not only are they all slower then him. All of them don't really have a good air game. The characters air game and campy ness seems very necessary vs lil Mac. Those I just listed seem like lil Mac will be in thier face and they wouldn't really have that many options to respond back with. I could see Mac having an advantage against those I just listed on this paragraph.

Diddy Kong, Marth and maybe Peach might give Mac some serious trouble. But overall if Mac stays on the floor then he's has a huge upper hand.

 

[Oatmeal.]

How in the world will little Mac do good against Olimar and Toon. Link? Olimar has his pikmin throw as well as a great long grab range. Lil Mac can be fast but if grabbed he's just gonna get combed for days so it could go even. Toon link I don't understand how lil Mac will beat him easily. Link I can see cause link is slow and bad in the air but toon link does most work from the air. Great projectiles, quick and great air capabilities. He can just camp lil Mac and force him to approach recklessly. Unlike megaman toon link still has many tools to use close range and quickly too. Reason why tink did bad against meta knight was because meta knight dominated both land and air. Lil Mac is just land and seems to be terrible in the air. So tink vs lil Mac could go even on who's the better player.
I can't really see Fox, Luigi, Mario, Shiek, Zelda and Yoshi having the advantage vs lil Mac. Not only are they all slower then him. All of them don't really have a good air game. The characters air game and campy ness seems very necessary vs lil Mac. Those I just listed seem like lil Mac will be in thier face and they wouldn't really have that many options to respond back with. I could see Mac having an advantage against those I just listed on this paragraph.
Diddy Kong, Marth and maybe Peach might give Mac some serious trouble. But overall if Mac stays on the floor then he's has a huge upper hand.

Oh Toon Link....you have no idea....I've been on a "who would win? Mac or Toon Link?" fight with my brother for a while. I say just call it even......

Fox, Luigi, Mario and Sheik with bad air game? That'd be the day. They have great air game.

As for the other two, I can see Mac having trouble with a good Yoshi. His air multi-hit moves with short hops oughta really rack up damage. It wouldn't be hard for a Yoshi to pressure Mac. Only reason I listed Zelda was because of Din's Fire not allowing Mac to approach safely.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Not really. In brawl fox, Mario, Luigi and sheiks air game wasn't anything to be wow's about. I mean average at best. If they buffed them in smash 4 I could see it being more likely

 

[Oatmeal.]

In Melee they were fantastic, and this is supposed to be like a balance of the two. Yeah, It's like I said before. There's no good way to tell how they actually play yet. But as for Sheik, I can see her new Bouncing Fish move giving Mac lots of trouble.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

In Melee they were fantastic, and this is supposed to be like a balance of the two. Yeah, It's like I said before. There's no good way to tell how they actually play yet. But as for Sheik, I can see her new Bouncing Fish move giving Mac lots of trouble.

Her bouncing fish and her needles will keep Mac frustrated. Bit she must be careful when landing. :o

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

We'll have to wait until E3 2014 to know how well Little Mac can cope with the new moves. Remember, some of his attacks offer super armor frames, so we can't neglect that when taking into account Little Mac counters.

 

[Takehiko]

With Mac's Recovery: I think people are forgeting that certain moves become powered up (like his upb vs link) when his K.O. Meter is up, so that means in most matches he'll have to work with maintaining a certain meter, so to insure his recovery.

Futher, concerning the shield grab dangers, with the Mac Player putting on pressure, I'm sure that he/she is going to mix in their own grab game too. Especially since Lil Mac is supposed to be a ground game character and grabs are part of ground games. Personally, I feel that his biggest weakness will be being air juggled and not having a answer for it and projectile games like what was mentioned above.

 

[Ragna22]

With Mac's Recovery: I think people are forgeting that certain moves become powered up (like his upb vs link) when his K.O. Meter is up, so that means in most matches he'll have to work with maintaining a certain meter, so to insure his recovery.

Futher, concerning the shield grab dangers, with the Mac Player putting on pressure, I'm sure that he/she is going to mix in their own grab game too. Especially since Lil Mac is supposed to be a ground game character and grabs are part of ground games. Personally, I feel that his biggest weakness will be being air juggled and not having a answer for it and projectile games like what was mentioned above.

I'm pretty sure that meter only affects his standard special, I don't remember Sakurai saying anything about it affecting all of his specials.

 

[Takehiko]

I'm pretty sure that meter only affects his standard special, I don't remember Sakurai saying anything about it affecting all of his specials.

I'll have to find the video, but it showed his upb doing 5 hits on link, but then it showed his upb doing 1 swing on recovery, sot he only thing that would make sense to me would be if his meter served as a point to makings ure the player stayed aggressive to make sure that it would be useful to his recovery, but all in all, I could see his side b being used more for recovery since it's chargable an has length.

Btw, so no one feels that megaman could zone out mac?

 

[Ragna22]

I'll have to find the video, but it showed his upb doing 5 hits on link, but then it showed his upb doing 1 swing on recovery, sot he only thing that would make sense to me would be if his meter served as a point to makings ure the player stayed aggressive to make sure that it would be useful to his recovery, but all in all, I could see his side b being used more for recovery since it's chargable an has length.

Btw, so no one feels that megaman could zone out mac?

That's probably because it's a multi hit attack, the spin is hitting the opponent a few times and that one punch at the end is the finisher, kind of like Wolf's upB in that sense.

As for Megaman, he might have the same problem that fox could in that Little Mac could probably run under most of Megaman's projectiles, granted you'd probably still be able to hit him with Megaman's forward smash or the leaf shield but if you plan on zoning him out with Megaman's pellots that he shoots you might have a bit of trouble, though I'd imagine it'd be a much better idea to meet Mac with Megaman's slide kick and follow up from there.

 

[extremechiton]

Lil macs side b is not chargeable. Thats his non ko charged neutral special

 

[Takehiko]

That's probably because it's a multi hit attack, the spin is hitting the opponent a few times and that one punch at the end is the finisher, kind of like Wolf's upB in that sense.
As for Megaman, he might have the same problem that fox could in that Little Mac could probably run under most of Megaman's projectiles, granted you'd probably still be able to hit him with Megaman's forward smash or the leaf shield but if you plan on zoning him out with Megaman's pellots that he shoots you might have a bit of trouble, though I'd imagine it'd be a much better idea to meet Mac with Megaman's slide kick and follow up from there.

Oh ok.

Lil macs side b is not chargeable. Thats his non ko charged neutral special

Thanks for that information. I retract my previous claim.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

This matchup is probably one that needs some speculation. While many post stuff other than this, these 2 have many things in common, such as not having a projectile, domination of the ground, and others.
Brawler seems to dominate better, as from what we have seen, he has better air game.

 

[weegee2407]

Brawler mii actually has a projectile. It's a shotput.

 

[Nat Goméz]

So the previos king of the air (and well, king of the tier) is already confirmed, how do you think Little mac will do against him? Of course he will be nerfed, but i think he still will be a good air fighter

So you think he's anti-air options and armour will be enough, or mac will have no chance against him?

 

[shinhed-echi]

A bit early to say, but if the landing lag rule applies to MK, he's in for a rough time against Mac.

And before people say I'm naive because we haven't seen how MK plays, we have to consider that the ledge game is different (not that it's going to help Mac all that much) but his glide has also been taken away.

I can see Mac landing a lot of hits, but sadly I can also see the potential shield-grab punish being quite effective on him.
If we thought Brawl had it bad with campyness, I have a hunch we haven't seen half of it with SSB4's MK now that his wings have been clipped.

Can't wait to Fsmash or B neutral those tornadoes. :D

 

[Nat Goméz]

So mac has even more priority and the armour right :D if he had the Tornado of big priority we still will be able to tank it and fsmash it

But we don't know if he keeps it, we do know that he still has he's drill side B (that i think it can be done a similar aproach)

www.smashbros.com/images/character/metaknight/screen-3.jpg

This one is discussed to be his new down B

And he's cape is back to, shinhed-echi, can i Pm you to talk about tactics? (and some things i maybe don't know about the game cause im new in the competitive world?)

 

[shinhed-echi]

I haven't really played SSB4 yet, but some people have described Little Mac to the tiniest detail. That and watching videos help, so this is how I get a general idea of how he'll play. I'm obviously imagining MK's playstyle as it was in Brawl plus the new limitations, and man have I played against a lot of those..

So this is how I could theorize tactics, if you'd like to share some with me, then sure! People that have actually played this character are bound to have much better input on the matter though.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Hehe, i know, but i don't know any of the people that had played with him and you look like know about Mac's details quite a bit i have some thougs but im a little new on these, i'll pm you ok?

Edit: Another thing, i just saw that you are from Argentina so i'll pm you in spanish my english is just not that good >_<