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Data "Smash Ain't no Joke" - Little Mac Matchup Discussion Thread

Venks

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"This guy" = Little Mac.

I want to know counters against Little Mac.
Personally I hate Little Mac dittos. My go to character against Little Mac is Donkey Kong. You out range all of Little Mac's grounded options with DK's tilts and down special. DK also can beat out LM's super armor with his own super armor from up special. And obviously DK has massive grab range, good throws, and an amazing back air for gimping LM.
 

PHYTO-1

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Personally I hate Little Mac dittos.
oh my god.

battle of the super armor

kill me plz

You out range all of Little Mac's grounded options with DK's tilts and down special. DK also can beat out LM's super armor with his own super armor from up special. And obviously DK has massive grab range, good throws, and an amazing back air for gimping LM.
not to mention fair, dair, sideb, down b to crush little mac's little sac.
 

Renegade TX2000

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Screw Mewtwo I hate peach... That's one character that i can't fsmash, ftilt on shield. She can grab punish or dash attack punish me everytime no matter how well spaced I am with those 2 moves.
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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Screw Mewtwo I hate peach... That's one character that i can't fsmash, ftilt on shield. She can grab punish or dash attack punish me everytime no matter how well spaced I am with those 2 moves.
Didn't know you were still playing LM Renegade.

I have similar issues with peach. Got wrecked by Rowans peach a few tournaments back. I typically have issues with her floating though :x. I realize that upsmash covers that, but I still have difficulties with it. It's a matchup I definitely need more practice in.
 
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Renegade TX2000

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Didn't know you were still playing LM Renegade.

I have similar issues with peach. Got wrecked by Rowans peach a few tournaments back. I typically have issues with her floating though :x. I realize that upsmash covers that, but I still have difficulties with it. It's a matchup I definitely need more practice in.
yeah if you see me using a different character it's just for my lil mac to understand that characters flaws better so I know where to be to exploit those flaws as lil mac.

Didn't know you were still playing LM Renegade.

I have similar issues with peach. Got wrecked by Rowans peach a few tournaments back. I typically have issues with her floating though :x. I realize that upsmash covers that, but I still have difficulties with it. It's a matchup I definitely need more practice in.

Also lil macs f smash uppercut beats all of peach's air game. It's her ground game that gets me.
 
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LCC Son-in-Law

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yeah if you see me using a different character it's just for my lil mac to understand that characters flaws better so I know where to be to exploit those flaws as lil mac.




Also lil macs f smash uppercut beats all of peach's air game. It's her ground game that gets me.
That makes sense, cool cool! I'll remember that about fsmash!
 

inconspikuous

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can we talk about how mac can deal with jank like that other thread in the competitive forum? been bodied by sheik's fair combos one too many times. how do you DI to avoid the fair combo gimp?
 

TheReflexWonder

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can we talk about how mac can deal with jank like that other thread in the competitive forum? been bodied by sheik's fair combos one too many times. how do you DI to avoid the fair combo gimp?
Pretty sure the only really effective way to avoid that is to not get hit by F-Air in the first place. :/

That said, it hits at a 50-degree angle, so the most efficient method of getting out would be holding Down and Away.
 

inconspikuous

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Pretty sure the only really effective way to avoid that is to not get hit by F-Air in the first place. :/

That said, it hits at a 50-degree angle, so the most efficient method of getting out would be holding Down and Away.
oh man... is it that bad? does the up b work (which will kill you offstage anyway, but at least you get the damage in, and if you're high enough perhaps KO off the top)? neutral b? i don't have a sheik friend to lab it with. if not, i'd say the matchup is almost unwinnable. sheik's fthrow to bouncing fish works against mac from 0% up to 50% unless you DI it up and towards sheik, but that puts you into range for the sheik fair combo. =/ i've won against sheiks by playing smart, but the reward sheik can get off of one fair or fthrow or anything offstage vs mac is ridiculous.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Yeah, Sheik ****s on Mac off of any little thing. The matchup seems pretty TERRIBLE.
 

inconspikuous

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Yeah, Sheik ****s on Mac off of any little thing. The matchup seems pretty TERRIBLE.
so what's the answer to sheik? switch characters? when you're being walled in neutral by autocanceled fairs and ftilts until something connects or sheik gets a grab, it's really frustrating.
 

TheReflexWonder

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so what's the answer to sheik? switch characters? when you're being walled in neutral by autocanceled fairs and ftilts until something connects or sheik gets a grab, it's really frustrating.
I mean, I've been doing pretty well against Phuzix's Sheik in the times I've played him (probably going slightly worse than even). Armor and Dash Attack help; she gets combo'd fairly hard. The only way to know for sure is to push against it.
 

inconspikuous

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I mean, I've been doing pretty well against Phuzix's Sheik in the times I've played him (probably going slightly worse than even). Armor and Dash Attack help; she gets combo'd fairly hard. The only way to know for sure is to push against it.
do you have vids of these matches, or have you seen any good vids of a mac doing what he should be doing against a good sheik?

EDIT: i found this on @sirchadakiss18's youtube channel but it's a team match until the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf9BuJ_roiQ
 
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PHYTO-1

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PHYTO-1

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PHYTO-1

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the only good thing about that matchup is that sheik is a fast faller and gets easily juggled by dtilts and utilts. you can easily get her to 50% and that also means guaranteed 0 - KO
 

PHYTO-1

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Final Verdict on the Sheik Matchup



the only way to win is to stall her out with this inescapable grab glitch in which she is constantly switching back and forth between grounded and mid-air states.
 

PHYTO-1

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Just got Mewtwo and so here are some basic infos

Move | % no killspark | % w/ killspark | % no killspark 100% rage | % w/ killspark 100% rage
KOP | 14% | 15% | 6% | 7%
UpB | 91% | 95% | 73% | 77%
Power Smash | 40% | 43% | 27% | 30%
USmash | 73% | 75% | 61% | 63%
FSmash | 72% | 79% | 61% | 67%
UFSmash | 81% | 83% | 68% | 70%
DSmash at ledge | 75% | 83% | 63% | 70%
FTilt at ledge | 73% | 82% | 60% | 68%

*killspark is that red lightning bolt shock thingy

True Combos @ 0%
DTilt >
  • dtilt
  • utilt
  • ftilt
  • jab
  • upb
Utilt >
  • ftilt
  • jab
  • upb
Dash Atk >
  • sideb
  • upb
  • dash atk
0 - KOP
  • dtilt > dtilt > KOP
Clanking his Shadow Ball to build meter

It takes about 4 seconds for mewtwo shadow ball to charge, so i'll just treat each second of charge as a stage

1 second
  • anything even auto jab and nair will beat it
2 seconds
  • ftilt, dtilt
3 seconds
  • usmash, dsmash, side b ( you can jump over it even when fully charged )
Full Charge
  • fsmash
moves from a higher stage will work on lower ones
 

NimbusSpark

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"This guy" = Little Mac.

I want to know counters against Little Mac.
I think it's safe to say that Pac-Man is probably one of the match-ups, alongside Rosa and Shiek, that screws Mac over pretty hard.
Whilst it's obvious that Mac has the upper hand against Pac-Man when he gets up close, with that super armour and whatnot, a smart Pac would most likely distance Little Mac using something like a grounded trampoline - which as a spacing tool, forces Mac either jump on the trampoline and get punished by Pac-Man's fairly good air-game, or let Pac-Man set up with his Bonus Fruit, Hydrant, etc. Basically, it's a stronger, ungrabbable, immobile version of Diddy's bananas that affects Pac-Man as well.
And this is without mention Pac-Man has that ridiculous gimping ability, even with his lack of a meteor (outside of Customs, that is) - soon as he gets you out of the stage, you're not coming back easily.

Pac-Man at his best will overall attempt to do one thing in this MU - exploiting his poor long-range options, air game and recovery. This is definitely not a near impossible matchup just like Donkey Kong versus King Dedede in Brawl, but it certainly is not in Mac's favour.
Perhaps I could sum this up according to the immortal words of Doc Louis - "That fight was so one sided, I'm going to eat my chocolate bar sideways!"
 

inconspikuous

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I think it's safe to say that Pac-Man is probably one of the match-ups, alongside Rosa and Shiek, that screws Mac over pretty hard.
Whilst it's obvious that Mac has the upper hand against Pac-Man when he gets up close, with that super armour and whatnot, a smart Pac would most likely distance Little Mac using something like a grounded trampoline - which as a spacing tool, forces Mac either jump on the trampoline and get punished by Pac-Man's fairly good air-game, or let Pac-Man set up with his Bonus Fruit, Hydrant, etc. Basically, it's a stronger, ungrabbable, immobile version of Diddy's bananas that affects Pac-Man as well.
And this is without mention Pac-Man has that ridiculous gimping ability, even with his lack of a meteor (outside of Customs, that is) - soon as he gets you out of the stage, you're not coming back easily.

Pac-Man at his best will overall attempt to do one thing in this MU - exploiting his poor long-range options, air game and recovery. This is definitely not a near impossible matchup just like Donkey Kong versus King Dedede in Brawl, but it certainly is not in Mac's favour.
Perhaps I could sum this up according to the immortal words of Doc Louis - "That fight was so one sided, I'm going to eat my chocolate bar sideways!"
yeah i've faced good pacs on the ladder. afaik there really isn't much of an answer to the ground trampoline thing except 'wait for it to disappear'.
 

Ffamran

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He ain't no air fighter, but that don't mean he can't learn to fly (a plane). How's your training going, Little Macs? The Falco boards started their Little Mac matchup discussion and would like some of Doc Louis's coaching too (and some dirty tips on how to expose his protégé). :p

It's ongoing like any training, so jog over whenever: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...sion-29-little-mac-underdog-underbird.401357/.

And it you want to have some friendly sparring with some Falco players, head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.
 

YurtZoire

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I am a Mac main and I have went up against several ZSS and I can't seem to get around to a good position to get some hits in. They always do the stun blaster into grab. Please help if you have any tips or ideas. I really need it.
Counter it or Nair at her to ground her down and follow up from there with a grab or tilt is what comes to my mind. You'll be surprised.. Mac is surprisingly gimmicky in the air once you get the feel for him. I honestly feel comfortable hopping with the guy as long as I can position myself in a good vintage point to either get in there or bring up my shield quickly and be ready for a punish. People are so quick to say his air game is useless.. Its ****, yes, but it is there for a few reasons..
 

inconspikuous

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a couple thoughts i've been having about various matchups:

vs :4zss:: i usually hold A to jab away the stun blaster. a lot of zss's will dash in right after and it's often a 50/50 whether they'll go for the dash grab which you can easily spotdodge and punish, (or continue to hold A to get them with the jab combo if they space it incorrectly) or go for the dash attack, which is a little harder to spotdodge because of the timing but you can sometimes catch them out of this by continuing to jab. good zss's will mix it up by either down B'ing or using aerials, in which case, you don't want to be caught holding A at all. also, zss's down B is incredibly telegraphed -- if you're expecting it, you can easily upsmash/upB them (jc OoS works) and KO early. zss likes to recover using down B esp when they're just out of reach of the ledge, so look out for it, and if you read it you can punish easy.

vs :4sheik:: you can nair out of ftilt combos at low percents. won't necessarily give you a frame advantage, but may screw the opponent up and reset the neutral. you can also upB out of it, but it's obv more risky. just like zss's flip, you can/should punish bouncing fish with upsmash or upB (jc OoS works) -- you should feel for when the opponent likes to use it (often recovering by the ledge, do not try to dsmash her recovery). also note that at low percents, if you hold up+in when you're being f-thrown, the bouncing fish combo should not connect. also, bouncing fish is not as fast as it feels -- if you spotdodge it, it's a free punish (but sheik recovers quickly so decide fast). otherwise, don't get faired. if you do, don't waste your double jump or you're dead.

vs :4rob:: if you can superarmor his nair, go for it. the main problem is the gyro+laser combo because it forces you to approach, applies shield pressure, and zones you out. try not to shield the gyro, as the ROB can just make another one right after it disappears. what i like to try to do is grab the gyro and throw it up (jc glide toss for movement or whatever). this keeps the gyro in play and makes it 'mac's item' (i.e. it will hit ROB instead of mac). also gives misdirection and you may be able to get a hit or two in before the gyro lands, where you can try to pick it up again and reset by throwing up. as long as the item is 'yours' ROB can't throw another gyro, so you can just read the laser attacks, which can't be done continuously. i think the space between lasers is 4 seconds -- any sooner and nothing will come out. also, don't roll around ROB predictably, because ROB's dsmash lasts long and covers a large area so you will likely get hit by it and perhaps get uaired after. ROB likes uair as a kill move because it lasts long and has good kb at higher percents (beep boop combo or whatever it's called), so try to watch out for getting grabbed.

vs :4mario:: i find that mario and sometimes luigi is weak to 'wavedash-like pivot fsmashes'. usually mario's regular approaches are nair, bair, dash attack, spin tornado, and fireball. if they're approaching by any of the first four options, right before the attack connects you can run back like _one_ step and pivot fsmash punish every one of those approaches with your superarmour. (side note: sometimes this works against sheik's nair/fair approaches, but it's a little more unsafe because sheik). for the fireball approach you can't do that, and usually mario will come in for the grab because your instinct is to shield it. read the fireball. if they fullhop/short-hop the fireball you can often run underneath and upsmash as there's a surprising amount of lag on mario's neutralB if you get past the fireball. if they throw the fireball and start running right after, you could jab the fireball away and continue to jab to catch their grab attempt. sometimes, they will mix it up by rolling behind you to grab you, so look out for that and spotdodge. also watch out for when mario lands with an aerial nair/bair, because it autocancels and he will almost always follow with his jab combo which is deceptively fast. don't get caught by that. EDIT: i forgot to mention, if mac's counter frames are active before he gets hit by the FLUDD, he won't get pushed back. situational, because if you get read you're screwed, but good to know if you get the read.

vs :rosalina:: luma can't shield (spotdodge?), so you can usually get rid of it with a DA, ftilt, fsmash -- anything the opponent would usually shield. also, when rosa has to recover from far with her upB, there's no hitbox, so if she's going for the ledge feel free to run off and jolt haymaker back towards the stage to stuff her recovery and add damage, possibly stage spike. i forgot you could probably do this to ROB too, but it's a little more risky as ROB can read that and sometimes act out of his upB to mess you up.

generally, i've actually been trying to implement this run-off-sideB-to-ledge ever since i saw that combo vid in the video thread. when it's not expected, at worst you get a ledge trump which you can punish on regrab with a dsmash or read. at best you get an unteched stage spike. anyway, anyone have any other thoughts about these MUs? if i'm wrong about anything lmk, but i thought this kind of discussion might be useful.
 
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shinhed-echi

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Counter it or Nair at her to ground her down and follow up from there with a grab or tilt is what comes to my mind. You'll be surprised.. Mac is surprisingly gimmicky in the air once you get the feel for him. I honestly feel comfortable hopping with the guy as long as I can position myself in a good vintage point to either get in there or bring up my shield quickly and be ready for a punish. People are so quick to say his air game is useless.. Its ****, yes, but it is there for a few reasons..
This! I've surprisingly started to implement his air game a lot.
One example is against :4link:, when I play them, they usually stick to the edge of the stage spamming. With Mac I gracefully short hop, duck, shield, and dodge my way to them, and await their last resort, the bomb, to jump over it, land with nair, and start my first jab combo.

I've also been implementing Dair for more than just locks and gimps. It sets a few people off because they feel every Little Mac main will disregard his aerials. But a little fast falling Dair has worked for me because it throws them off for just the right time to land safely.

That video also changed my view as a :4littlemac: mainer.
BTW, my coolest achievement was KO punching while :4link: grabbed me. I don't remember if I punched after or before I got "hooked" by Link, but the fact that he keeps dragging Mac in, made sure that the wind of the punch didn't blow him away.
I hope I saved the replay. :3
 

PHYTO-1

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dont be afraid to use aerials. if it is opportune then by all means go for it. just dont rely on them.

i tend to throw in fairs and uairs after a string to continue the rushdown and pressure. or just try to fair/bair them as they return to stage and maybe get a sideb stage spike; much more proactive then just waiting by the ledge trying to get a dsmash
 

inconspikuous

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This! I've surprisingly started to implement his air game a lot.
One example is against :4link:, when I play them, they usually stick to the edge of the stage spamming. With Mac I gracefully short hop, duck, shield, and dodge my way to them, and await their last resort, the bomb, to jump over it, land with nair, and start my first jab combo.
most :4link: i face don't just zone with their projectiles though... if you jump in, you're going to eat a sword jab, uptilt or upsmash. nair won't cover those options unless i'm missing something.
 

PHYTO-1

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most :4link: i face don't just zone with their projectiles though... if you jump in, you're going to eat a sword jab, uptilt or upsmash. nair won't cover those options unless i'm missing something.
for glory campers.

what does this :GCA: button do?
 

Little Nemo

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Yo I don't have time to read the thread because I'm tech skill grinding in Melee for a tournament later today. I had a question though... How's the Mac vs Ness MU? I played it once and I could not get in, got comboed for free... I swear that is 100 - 0 in Ness's favor lol
 

TheReflexWonder

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It's pretty terrible. You have to give the utmost respect to Ness F-Air and the grab. Stutter step -> F-Smash is good for cutting through his offense, but a smart Ness will likely camp you to death.

Space D-Tilt well; it's one of your only safe pokes here. I haven't played the matchup much, but small things cost you, big-time.

Fun fact: Using Slip Counter on Ness's PKT2 -will- hit him and KO at, like, 20%. When Ness hits it, he slows down enough to get caught by the hitbox instead of blowing past it. You're not recovering afterward, but since he's dying first, I'd call that a winning trade. Even if he decided to change the trajectory and sacrifice himself to gimp you, you can continue spamming Counter to stall while he falls to his death before you.
 
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Virum

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No matchup in this game is 100-0. To say otherwise is ignorant hyperbole honestly. Brawl Ganon, for how much of a travesty that character was, had barely any fully unwinnable match-ups if any (I'm pretty sure had some 5-95 matchups though). This character is not only leagues better than Brawl Ganon, but the game was trimmed of Brawl's "bs" such as infinite chain grabs and grab releases that made certain match-ups incredibly difficult (e.g. DDD vs DK, Pikachu vs Fox, Marth vs Mother Boys etc).

Granted characters like Sheik, Mario and Ness definitely give Mac a very hard time but to say they are unwinnable is just silly considering Mac's speed, power and raw frame data.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Brawl Ganondorf vs. Brawl ICs was effectively 100-0, actually; not even in the hyperbole sense. Ganondorf had literally no answer to desynced Blizzard that didn't involve a laggy aerial or landing well within grab range (and Popo could D-Throw chaingrab him until Nana had time to walk back to you if she got hit).

Totally agree that a character with Mac's great and extreme pokes can't have anything close to an unwinnable matchup, though.
 
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