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Data "Smash Ain't no Joke" - Little Mac Matchup Discussion Thread

Opossum

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Oh, Diddy Kong...



Honestly, I see myself using jab the most to deal with him. I don't have my Wii U with me right now, but now I'm curious, since I don't think I ever thought about it...can you get rid of Monkey Flip with forward tilt?
 

Venks

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Other than using Jabs to beat most of his moves, what else do you do to deal with Diddy's approaches? I'm sure you don't sit there and Jab all day. Are you saying that you should play Little Mac in a defensive playstyle against Diddy, throwing out attacks when able and keeping him out? What if Diddy short hop fairs you at close distance? How do you condition for the fast fall air dodge?
It ideal to move around. Walk forward or back, or dodge roll away now and then. You don't ever want to stay static because that makes you easier to predict. But seriously you do want to jab in place a lot. If Diddy shoots peanuts? Your jab beats them out. Did he throw the banana? Your jab beats it out. Is Diddy dashing in for a grab? Your jab beats it out. Is Diddy trying to Monkey Flip in? You jab beats it out most of them time.

So ideally you want Diddy to approach you and to only chase after him when you're trying to punish a landing or a roll.

It's also important to remember that side smash can go through the banana when thrown at you OR when it's on the ground. You don't trip during super armor. Diddy tends to dash in after his banana because it's safe to do in most matchups. But that's a free side smash for Little Mac.
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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It ideal to move around. Walk forward or back, or dodge roll away now and then. You don't ever want to stay static because that makes you easier to predict. But seriously you do want to jab in place a lot. If Diddy shoots peanuts? Your jab beats them out. Did he throw the banana? Your jab beats it out. Is Diddy dashing in for a grab? Your jab beats it out. Is Diddy trying to Monkey Flip in? You jab beats it out most of them time.

So ideally you want Diddy to approach you and to only chase after him when you're trying to punish a landing or a roll.

It's also important to remember that side smash can go through the banana when thrown at you OR when it's on the ground. You don't trip during super armor. Diddy tends to dash in after his banana because it's safe to do in most matchups. But that's a free side smash for Little Mac.
What if the Diddy manages to get ahead of you and is camping you out with banana's and/or peanuts? Anything you would recommend for this? Also, still looking for suggestions on what stage to counterpick against him. From what I can tell, the simplest choice that's pretty safe is FD/an Omega. Would yall agree?
 

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FD is a solid call, but I would also contend Lylat as a plausible stage. While Mac can't smash through the platforms, I feel they're low enough that opponents will not want to stay on them. They're also for Mac to get off of. His recovery game is terrible on this stage, but Diddy also can get clipped by Battlefield Jr.

A third stage, if bans have happened, would probably be Town and City. Platforms are too high for Diddy to easily combo you, imo.
 

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What if the Diddy manages to get ahead of you and is camping you out with banana's and/or peanuts? Anything you would recommend for this? Also, still looking for suggestions on what stage to counterpick against him. From what I can tell, the simplest choice that's pretty safe is FD/an Omega. Would yall agree?
If he gets ahead of you then it's definitely much more difficult. At close range Diddy has a solid poke with his own forward tilt that keeps him reasonably safe from dash approaches. I've got the most mileage out of shielding or jumping my way past the projectiles and poking Diddy's shield with down tilt. I'll generally go straight in side smash after that. I catch Diddy dropping his shield a lot. Alternatively if you know Diddy's going to shield you can always grab. I'll only throw him if it'll take him offstage, otherwise I'll down-tilt after grab release and go for another smash. Works pretty well for me, but every player has different reactions so you'll have to figure out how they react to close range pressure.

FD is a solid call, but I would also contend Lylat as a plausible stage. While Mac can't smash through the platforms, I feel they're low enough that opponents will not want to stay on them. They're also for Mac to get off of. His recovery game is terrible on this stage, but Diddy also can get clipped by Battlefield Jr.

A third stage, if bans have happened, would probably be Town and City. Platforms are too high for Diddy to easily combo you, imo.
Oh goodness Town and City is literally Diddy's best stage. It allows him to juggle a lot easier for one and goodness forbid he grabs you on top of one of those platforms because he can hoo-hah you for the KO around 50%. I will always ban Town and City against a good Diddy.

My favorite stage to take Diddy is Castle Siege. The transitions occasionally save my life and the small size of the first phase makes it easy to stay on top of Diddy. The second phase makes it so Diddy can't use his bananas effectively though he can platform camp, but that's a small price to pay for the overall better stage advantage for Little Mac.

Personally I don't like taking Diddy to stages with platforms. My most success is on Battlefield, but that's honestly just because it's my most practiced stage. Second would be Castle Siege, and third would be Duck Hunt. I have a lot of practice against platform camping and tend to do pretty well on Duck Hunt against Diddy. I only go to Duck Hunt because Delfino and Halberd's lower blast zones are scary against hoo-hah. Lylat is probably a decent stage for us because we can reach the left and right platforms with up smash at certain positions, but recovering on this stage is a nightmare. Especially against players who are gimp happy already.
 

Dooms

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A lot of Diddy's ground options beat out Little Mac's jab. Ftilt, Dtilt, Jab, and Fsmash (maybe Dsmash don't remember) all just go through Little Mac's jab (although some of those options require good spacing). I highly recommend only throwing out Jab when punishing something or getting a read on a dash grab/banana toss (if you can time jab that consistently, because if you time it poorly, the banana will go through your jab).

Grab Diddy Kong's banana and be unpredictable with your throw. Learn the jump cancel toss for fighting any character with a projectile you can grab. Little Mac's distance from the toss is really good, and you can get a lot of mix-ups from it. Be wary that you lose a LOT of options when you have that banana in your hand though, so you need to be constantly mobile. Against Diddy Kong, a great time to throw it would be when he tries to run in for a grab or go for an aerial when you have the banana in your hand.

Ftilt is very unsafe against Diddy from what I've seen. Ftilt on shield = free jump cancelled banana toss for Diddy (and there is no reason for Diddy to not have a banana in his hand against Little Mac on any stage with a platform). You don't want to get hit by a banana against Diddy. Dthrow -> Fair = awful position for Little Mac, and he can also banana -> fsmash you, too.

Dtilt is a good option against Diddy if you don't commit to the follow up without it connecting. If you go in for a dash attack/fsmash/ftilt/usmash without the dtilt actually connecting, then you will either get hit by a Banana or grabbed. Grab may work though depending on what the Diddy does. Don't go for anything stupid just because you play against Diddy's that drop their shield against a Little Mac. Getting grabbed is way better than getting hit by anything else Little Mac has in my opinion.

Diddy doesn't need to play center stage against Little Mac if there is any platform. Diddy has the options to punish things that are considered safe for Little Mac against most characters thanks to his trusted Banana, his ground speed, his good grab range, and his very strong OoS SH Fair range. Little Mac can play this matchup successfully by punishing both landings and moves Diddy throws out, but I don't see Little Mac getting too much more out of the match than that.

Recovering against Diddy could potentially be very tough for Little Mac because zdrop/tossed banana -> fair/bair can prooobably shut down your recovery options. I'm not 100% certain of this as I need to incorporate gimping into my play more, but I'm afraid this may work against you guys.

In the end, the matchup isn't unwinnable, but all it takes is for Diddy to wait for you to poorly space or over commit to something, grab you, down throw -> guaranteed follow up you, and then either bait a counter or wait for you to land and grab you again.

These are all just my opinions on the matchup from the Diddy side. Sorry if any of this is incorrect or poorly worded.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Diddy presents a problem for Mac. Diddy's achilles heel is how vulnerable he is with UpB and SideB while recovering, and Mac has no offstage aerial game besides footstool, which is unreliable for both. Without a means of gimping him, you have to challenge Diddy where he shines the most, and that's neutral game. Diddy players won't use his laggier moves, so there's nothing for you to focus on punishing besides him spawning a banana and monkey flipping. Mac also can't deal with strong grab game and command grabs, of which Diddy has access to both. Diddy's punish game is very effective, so you don't want to use jolt jaymaker as an approach. Our super armor smashes are great, but will you really rely on your sense of timing for that?

I think Diddy has the exact tools for dealing with Mac. A fight with that monkey is a steeper uphill battle than with just about any other character I can think of. And no Mac main will be caught without a secondary. Switch.

Edit: I'm glad you all brought up using Jab to cut Diddy's options. The truth is, it'll only stop a dash grab, a banana, and non fully charged peanuts. That's pretty substantial, but Diddy players will be more than happy to resort to their short hop Fair and Bair which cuts clean through it. As for whether jab stops monkey flip, it's tough to say. It will stop a short range, grounded flip, but mid range from the ground will result in either the command grab getting through, or a 2% trade, since the moves connect on the same frame, and command grabs don't have grab armor. Aerial monkey flip kick can get past Mac's jab if Diddy lands on him.

Customs may change up the matchup in Mac's favor, but I'm not optimistic. Tornado uppercut could potentially gimp Diddy's UpB, and flaming lunge recovery is difficult to challenge, but you're still at a loss with options once Diddy realizes he just needs to stay airborne.

All in all, I call this a 7:3 in Diddy's favor. The advantage is clear as day to see, and the only way to win here is to be the absolute better player.
 
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Venks

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A lot of Diddy's ground options beat out Little Mac's jab. Ftilt, Dtilt, Jab, and Fsmash (maybe Dsmash don't remember) all just go through Little Mac's jab (although some of those options require good spacing). I highly recommend only throwing out Jab when punishing something or getting a read on a dash grab/banana toss (if you can time jab that consistently, because if you time it poorly, the banana will go through your jab).

Grab Diddy Kong's banana and be unpredictable with your throw. Learn the jump cancel toss for fighting any character with a projectile you can grab. Little Mac's distance from the toss is really good, and you can get a lot of mix-ups from it. Be wary that you lose a LOT of options when you have that banana in your hand though, so you need to be constantly mobile. Against Diddy Kong, a great time to throw it would be when he tries to run in for a grab or go for an aerial when you have the banana in your hand.

Ftilt is very unsafe against Diddy from what I've seen. Ftilt on shield = free jump cancelled banana toss for Diddy (and there is no reason for Diddy to not have a banana in his hand against Little Mac on any stage with a platform). You don't want to get hit by a banana against Diddy. Dthrow -> Fair = awful position for Little Mac, and he can also banana -> fsmash you, too.

Dtilt is a good option against Diddy if you don't commit to the follow up without it connecting. If you go in for a dash attack/fsmash/ftilt/usmash without the dtilt actually connecting, then you will either get hit by a Banana or grabbed. Grab may work though depending on what the Diddy does. Don't go for anything stupid just because you play against Diddy's that drop their shield against a Little Mac. Getting grabbed is way better than getting hit by anything else Little Mac has in my opinion.

Diddy doesn't need to play center stage against Little Mac if there is any platform. Diddy has the options to punish things that are considered safe for Little Mac against most characters thanks to his trusted Banana, his ground speed, his good grab range, and his very strong OoS SH Fair range. Little Mac can play this matchup successfully by punishing both landings and moves Diddy throws out, but I don't see Little Mac getting too much more out of the match than that.

Recovering against Diddy could potentially be very tough for Little Mac because zdrop/tossed banana -> fair/bair can prooobably shut down your recovery options. I'm not 100% certain of this as I need to incorporate gimping into my play more, but I'm afraid this may work against you guys.

In the end, the matchup isn't unwinnable, but all it takes is for Diddy to wait for you to poorly space or over commit to something, grab you, down throw -> guaranteed follow up you, and then either bait a counter or wait for you to land and grab you again.

These are all just my opinions on the matchup from the Diddy side. Sorry if any of this is incorrect or poorly worded.
I completely agree with most of what you're saying. It is definitely a match up where the more patient player wins and Diddy has more safe pressure options than Little Mac has. But it is a matchup that Diddy has to play more carefully in neutral than normal because jab beats out his normal go to options. Little Mac should never be hit by a banana in neutral. All Little Mac has to do is hold down the A button and he will spam the first hit of his jab combo. That beats out banana 100% of the time.

Diddy presents a problem for Mac. Diddy's achilles heel is how vulnerable he is with UpB and SideB while recovering, and Mac has no offstage aerial game besides footstool, which is unreliable for both. Without a means of gimping him, you have to challenge Diddy where he shines the most, and that's neutral game. Diddy players won't use his laggier moves, so there's nothing for you to focus on punishing besides him spawning a banana and monkey flipping. Mac also can't deal with strong grab game and command grabs, of which Diddy has access to both. Diddy's punish game is very effective, so you don't want to use jolt jaymaker as an approach. Our super armor smashes are great, but will you really rely on your sense of timing for that?

I think Diddy has the exact tools for dealing with Mac. A fight with that monkey is a steeper uphill battle than with just about any other character I can think of. And no Mac main will be caught without a secondary. Switch.

Edit: I'm glad you all brought up using Jab to cut Diddy's options. The truth is, it'll only stop a dash grab, a banana, and non fully charged peanuts. That's pretty substantial, but Diddy players will be more than happy to resort to their short hop Fair and Bair which cuts clean through it. As for whether jab stops monkey flip, it's tough to say. It will stop a short range, grounded flip, but mid range from the ground will result in either the command grab getting through, or a 2% trade, since the moves connect on the same frame, and command grabs don't have grab armor. Aerial monkey flip kick can get past Mac's jab if Diddy lands on him.

Customs may change up the matchup in Mac's favor, but I'm not optimistic. Tornado uppercut could potentially gimp Diddy's UpB, and flaming lunge recovery is difficult to challenge, but you're still at a loss with options once Diddy realizes he just needs to stay airborne.

All in all, I call this a 7:3 in Diddy's favor. The advantage is clear as day to see, and the only way to win here is to be the absolute better player.
I would rely on my timing and ability to read the opponent to beat out attacks with super armor. That's why I play Little Mac. If I wanted a low-risk, less read dependent character I would play someone else. I think you really downplay how amazing our jab is in this matchup. We limit Diddy's options that he can consistently use in many other match ups. Diddy has to adapt and use his other tools. Once Diddy is using tilts and aerials instead of his normal approaches these can be beat out with super armor.

I still feel Diddy has a slight advantage in this matchup because forward tilt isn't as useful as it is in other matchups so Little Mac needs to be more careful when poking. But aside from that Little Mac isn't hurt by Diddy more than he is any other character on the roster. I'd say the matchup is 4.5:5.5 in Diddy's favor.
 
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Dooms

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I tested what does and doesn't beat Diddy's jab with a Little Mac main (Son-in-Law). Jab (rapid or first-hit) does not consistently beat banana. Son-in-Law can confirm this. There were also a few times (couldn't do it consistently) where banana would clash with jab and I could dash in and grab before Little Mac could react because he was in lag from the clash. If banana goes through your jab, I can dash grab you on reaction, and if it doesn't, that's that. It's something you don't gain anything from and I don't lose anything from.

Diddy's fsmash, dtilt, jab, ftilt, fair, bair, uair, peanuts, and banana can all beat Little Mac's jab depending on timing and spacing. Most of these aren't consistent. The only ones that were consistent were well spaced ftilt, fsmash, fair, uair, and bair. This basically means that Diddy can easily beat your jab with jump cancel banana toss -> any of these options with decent spacing since banana and jab clash most of the time (meaning that jump cancelled toss -> fsmash is pretty much a free hit). This puts you in an awful position.

I don't underestimate Mac's jab in the slightest. I know what it does/doesn't beat when it comes to Diddy Kong. I know that if you're going to spam A when I dash in, I can stop before I get to you and get a free fair. I know that if I have a banana in my hand, I can throw it at you and fair safely if you're jabbing.

Jab beats dash grab and clashes with banana, but that's pretty much it. Most jabs beat dash grab, and anyone that dash grabs either is attempting to read you or is just bad. Jab doesn't scare Diddy as much as you think it does, because he still has options to push you towards the edge of the stage or off-stage depending on how much percent you have, all of which is good for Diddy.

Diddy's gameplan doesn't change when he's fighting Little Mac unless he has a KO punch (in which case he'd run away and sit on platforms until he can get a hit with banana) because of the fact that your jab doesn't consistently beat banana (or any of my options that aren't dash grab, something I wouldn't be throwing out against a Little Mac unless I was hard reading anyways).

I agee that superarmor can screw with Diddy, but if you throw out a smash against Diddy and it doesn't connect, that's a hard punish by Diddy via banana -> throw -> aerial or banana -> f/d smash.

This matchup is not as good as you're making it out to be. Possibly 55:45, but probably 60:40. I wouldn't put it as 65:35 or 50:50.
 
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Venks

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I tested what does and doesn't beat Diddy's jab with a Little Mac main (Son-in-Law). Jab (rapid or first-hit) does not consistently beat banana. Son-in-Law can confirm this. There were also a few times (couldn't do it consistently) where banana would clash with jab and I could dash in and grab before Little Mac could react because he was in lag from the clash. If banana goes through your jab, I can dash grab you on reaction, and if it doesn't, that's that. It's something you don't gain anything from and I don't lose anything from.
You're right. I went back and tested it more closely and found that banana can get through if you dash throw it at about max throw distance. If you position it just right the banana will go just under Little Mac's jab. But this isn't very realistic as if you're off by the slightest then the banana goes too short or gets beaten out by Little Mac's jab. I don't know how'd punish anything when LM hits the banana as LM instantly transitions into the 2nd hit of jab combo. I don't doubt what you're saying I just haven't been able to replicate it myself.

Diddy's fsmash, dtilt, jab, ftilt, fair, bair, uair, peanuts, and banana can all beat Little Mac's jab depending on timing and spacing. Most of these aren't consistent. The only ones that were consistent were well spaced ftilt, fsmash, fair, uair, and bair. This basically means that Diddy can easily beat your jab with jump cancel banana toss -> any of these options with decent spacing since banana and jab clash most of the time (meaning that jump cancelled toss -> fsmash is pretty much a free hit). This puts you in an awful position.

I don't underestimate Mac's jab in the slightest. I know what it does/doesn't beat when it comes to Diddy Kong. I know that if you're going to spam A when I dash in, I can stop before I get to you and get a free fair. I know that if I have a banana in my hand, I can throw it at you and fair safely if you're jabbing.
In my experience Diddy players have the usual go to set up of tossing banana at the opponent and then going for a grab regardless of if the opponent trips or blocks. I've mostly been stressing LM's jab for being useful against that situation.
And yes peanuts CAN get past LM's jab, but it's obviously more likely LM's jab will win given how slow Diddy's peanut popgun move is. It's far easier for LM to space and jab out the peanuts then it is for Diddy to space and hit with the peanuts.

I don't really suggest LM to use his jab against Diddy's better poking normals. LM would lose if he's the first to extend a limb out. As with all matchups in the game it's all about getting proper spacing and timing your attacks. LM can beat all of Diddy's good pokes if he uses good spacing and timing. Though Little Mac does have to respect Diddy's options more than Diddy has to respect LM's tilts. LM still has to space carefully with down tilt or he'll get shield grabbed, though up tilt has enough push back on block to keep LM safe from being grabbed.

It's all about spacing. But when Diddy has the banana in his hand Diddy's options are limited. Diddy can not use any of his pokes while holding an item. Diddy can dash-throw, stand throw, throw from the air, or z-drop the banana. Diddy can, however, use the Monkey Flip as a mixup, but unlike most matchups LM isn't as likely to be intimidated by the banana and go into shield. LM can jab Diddy out of the Monkey Flip grab. This is again spacing dependent as if Diddy is too far away or too high up it won't work.

It's really important that LM is never idle and doesn't allow his opponent to space exactly how they want. That way he can beat out bananas, but doesn't set himself up for spaced aerials. If Diddy is taking the time to think about his approach rather then just dash-throwing into dash-grab then the game becomes much more interesting and read dependent.

Jab beats dash grab and clashes with banana, but that's pretty much it. Most jabs beat dash grab, and anyone that dash grabs either is attempting to read you or is just bad. Jab doesn't scare Diddy as much as you think it does, because he still has options to push you towards the edge of the stage or off-stage depending on how much percent you have, all of which is good for Diddy.

Diddy's gameplan doesn't change when he's fighting Little Mac unless he has a KO punch (in which case he'd run away and sit on platforms until he can get a hit with banana) because of the fact that your jab doesn't consistently beat banana (or any of my options that aren't dash grab, something I wouldn't be throwing out against a Little Mac unless I was hard reading anyways).

I agee that superarmor can screw with Diddy, but if you throw out a smash against Diddy and it doesn't connect, that's a hard punish by Diddy via banana -> throw -> aerial or banana -> f/d smash.

This matchup is not as good as you're making it out to be. Possibly 55:45, but probably 60:40. I wouldn't put it as 65:35 or 50:50.
I definitely agree that Little Mac has to try harder than Diddy does in this matchup. If Diddy spaces something incorrectly he can still be in a neutral position due to his forgiving frame data. If LM spaces incorrectly then that should without a doubt be a big punish for Diddy.
When I'm talking numbers I'm thinking about LM and Diddy being played at the top of their game. So while I feel the matchup is only slightly in Diddy's favor ideally, I think it is significantly in Diddy's favor realistically for most players. Diddy is easier to play, more players understand how to utilize Diddy, and Diddy has more high level players playing him.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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May I propose :4link: as the next topic? On a quick scan of the thread's pages, he doesn't seem to have been brought up as the primary focus at any time, and the character is definitely seeing a resurgence of player base and technical discussion. You may have seen this guide posted the other day. It contains a lot of information that is not heavily known unless you yourself play as Link in Smash 4. I also propose we take a gander through this thread, as it is a wealth of information that we can use as a source.

So, what are Link's strengths?

- To start with, his repertoire of projectiles are viable at close, mid, and long ranges. To protect yourself, remember that you can cancel a run into shield, but not a dash. Mac's running speed is almost unparalleled in Smash 4, so our approaches need to be careful and practical, as well as relentless and cunning. Going airborne puts us in bad situations.

- Link's bombs are a clear and present threat in the hands of a practiced player. Definitely get some practice catching items coming at you, as well as jump cancel tossing, and even z dropping. I'd add z-dropped aerial to that list for the Macs that just want to be thorough, but our aerials are so bad that we can skip that lesson.

- Link's aerials have absurdly low landing lag. We're talking 10 on nair and bair, and 12 on fair. This is unfortunate news, since he can reasonably land with an aerial if he's feeling threatened. So shield grab it, right? Well, Mac has one of the worst standing grabs in the game as far as range. Which also means he has one of the worst shield grabs. The Link player would have to have a garbage sense of spacing for it to work. Perfect shielding will give you a great window for jabs, or even tilts, but I'm not so sure what our chances are with normal OoS options. Remember that our Up B is frame 1 invincible to deal with pressure scenarios.

- Link's F smash has been buffed to connect at high percents. Since we're lightweights, I strongly encourage attempting to double jump if you're caught in the first strike out of the air.

Link's sword attacks are extremely powerful. Many of them have KO potential at reasonable to high percentage. Thankfully, most of the kill moves have a high enough angle for us to attempt a recovery. But remember that we're lightweights, and when our damage is past 60 or 70, we need our super armor options in order to keep the rage mode coming and getting early kills of our own.

Link is a heavy weight character. This is neither a strength nor a weakness, just a note. He'll stay alive longer than most opponents, but we'll have longer strings of jabs and dtilts to get him to high percent range.

As for Link's weaknesses

- Link's recovery is not the best, but it does get better if he utilizes bombs. Link hovers like a doofus if he opts to go over a ledge, and most of his recovery is vertical to begin with. Even with his tether recovery, it's reasonable to assume he will be opting to snap to the ledge. This gives us an opportunity to use our one, reasonable means of edgeguarding, ledge trumping. Edgeguarding will still be difficult, but with practice, it's safe and more worthwhile than simply watching Link recover and doing nothing.

- Link's grab is less than stellar. I don't know how much slower it is compared to the average grab, but it's obviously got a good window to punish if you spot dodge, or even dash/dance trot out of range.

- Link's throws are possibly some of the worst in the game. Granted, most of the cast of this game have average throws, so the difference is not very big, but Link has little to gain with a grabbed opponent. The throws cannot kill, and don't seem to have combo potential. They also deal little damage.

That's everything at the top of my head. I can't come up with a difficulty rating for this matchup without more testing and research. Like, will Mac's jab beat the boomerang, arrows, or bombs? Will the boomerang angle affect whether it can be clanked? Should we jolt haymaker to go over these projectiles to punish Link? Will our crouch or even dash put us low enough to the ground for us to be safe from projectiles? How effective is Link's Up special for OoS? Will the angle of that attack pretty much kill us because of the low angle we get launched? How will our customs effect the matchup? What are Link's ideal customs, and how can they effect the match?
 

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Here are my notes on the testing I did on Little Macs Jab vs Diddy. Thank you @ Dooms Dooms for testing with me!

Diddy's Fsmash beats out LMs basic Jab, but only on the second hit.
Rapid Jab beats Diddy's Fsmash, but it can hit depending on the timing.

Dsmash beats both of LMs jabs when spaced

Usmash beats Jab but not rapid jab

Well spaced ftilt beats both of LMs jabs

Diddy's dash attack beats out jab, and can beat rapid jab if timed correctly

Diddy's dtilt beats both of LM jabs, but the spacing against the first jab is very precise

LMs jab beats ftilt

Diddy's jab can beat LMs jab sometimes? It was weird. Sometimes it would beat little macs jab, and sometimes it was vice versa. I honestly don't know what determined it.

Diddy's fair, bair, and uair beat both of LMs jabs

LMs jab usually beats peanuts. I believe the peanuts can go between jabs, and if used from above it can hit LMs head.

LMs jab beats bananas, unless diddy short hops them or aims at his feet

Monkey Kick can hit through both jabs if timed to come out exactly when he would hit you.

Little Macs jump canceled throw is incredible! Used with banana, it can lead to landing various attacks for free. Ftilt and Fsmash out of jump canceled throw is awesome. Note though, the distance you go changes on your timing when throwing. Basically, the timing between when you press jump and over-A. If timed really late, you slide the distance of your roll.

I know it's not much info, but I wanted to input it anyway. I'm going to go ahead and close the Diddy discussion here. I'll sort through and compile the information on the Diddy matchup soon. It's a matchup that will probably need to be covered again in the future, but I think we covered a good bit of it for now.

@ Zapp Branniglenn Zapp Branniglenn While discussion Link as the next topic isn't a bad idea, I feel it that right now it would be more productive and apply to more people to discuss the characters that are the largest threats in the competitive scene atm. I am going to wait a little before starting the next major discussion though, so you are welcome to open discussion until then. We will eventually cover link though, and I would love your input on it then, as well as include what you just posted.
 
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Actilide

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So pretty recently I was practicing Captain Falcon :4falcon: on For Glory and came across a pretty good Kirby:4kirby: player, she beat me twice as Falcon so naturally I switched to my main, Little Mac :4littlemac:. The first few matches I 2 stocked her but then she started camping the edge and spamming inhale, every time I tried to approach I would get swallowed and I could escape off stage but never quite recover. So I was wondering if anyone else is having this problem or if they could give me some options on how to stop players from doing this. Thanks in advance! :dr^_^:
 

meleebrawler

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So pretty recently I was practicing Captain Falcon :4falcon: on For Glory and came across a pretty good Kirby:4kirby: player, she beat me twice as Falcon so naturally I switched to my main, Little Mac :4littlemac:. The first few matches I 2 stocked her but then she started camping the edge and spamming inhale, every time I tried to approach I would get swallowed and I could escape off stage but never quite recover. So I was wondering if anyone else is having this problem or if they could give me some options on how to stop players from doing this. Thanks in advance! :dr^_^:
You jump or roll behind him. Actually Kirby's inhale has terrible range so you could probably just Ftilt.
It's Dedede's inhale you have to worry about.
 

CyberHyperPhoenix

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So pretty recently I was practicing Captain Falcon :4falcon: on For Glory and came across a pretty good Kirby:4kirby: player, she beat me twice as Falcon so naturally I switched to my main, Little Mac :4littlemac:. The first few matches I 2 stocked her but then she started camping the edge and spamming inhale, every time I tried to approach I would get swallowed and I could escape off stage but never quite recover. So I was wondering if anyone else is having this problem or if they could give me some options on how to stop players from doing this. Thanks in advance! :dr^_^:
Its a simple case of bait and punish.

Simply foxtrot towards her and wait until she starts the inhale. Stay back and punish with a dash attack or ftilt when Kirby is in his recovering animations.
 

SwordsRbroken

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So how do you guys deal with campy Sonic players as Mac, especially if they like hanging near the ledge? (Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm just trying to improve my Mac)
 
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TheReflexWonder

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So how do you guys deal with campy Sonic players as Mac, especially if they like hanging near the ledge? (Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm just trying to improve my Mac)
It's really hard. Sonic likely wrecks Little Mac due to superior speed and a great grab game. It's the kind of matchup where you have to spotdodge a fair amount between your standard pokes in order to take advantage of his grab attempts. If you get a decent lead, you have to force him to come to you; anything less than that is taking huge risks for little payoff.
 

BudokaiGamer

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I really don't have too much of a problem when fighting a lot of characters, but one of my friends in particular is one person that always gives me a real hard time. I'm not saying that I beat everyone I play, it's just that I learn what I do wrong and either change it or learn ways around things.

But I have a friend that mains Little Mac and Greninja. I'm not good with faster characters at all, never really have been. I really have a hard time countering his Little Mac the most though. I'm not good with Marth but he used to be someone I could get somewhere with on him, but for some reason I just can't get it down now.

I've tried all my mains and some favorite characters but I just can't seem to figure it out! He has a pretty common formula of dash attacks, grabs, and his crazy jab combo. I've tried all of my favorite techniques with my favorite characters too and just can't seem to figure it out.​

I wish I just had a replay that I could share for more help haha​
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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Ness Discussion

While not as many people play This Kid as they play Diddy Kong, Ness is still a relatively common foe in tournament play. He may not be the largest threat Little Mac has, but from his juggles to his gimp potential he can still be a terror if you don't know how to deal with him.

How do you typically deal with this matchup?
Once a Ness has you in the air or a Dthrow>Fair combo, what do you do?
What stages do you like to counterpick Ness to and why?
What problems do you find yourself facing in this matchup?


I've noticed that LM can sometimes counter through PK Fire, and that he can also Rising uppercut out of it.


Also, I apologize for the delay on starting this Matchup discussion and compiling the information on the Diddy Discussion. I'll have the information up as soon as possible.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Ness is a strong character, but I think LM has all the tools to deal with him. Ness' throws can mean certain death for Mac, but there have been many times where the Ness I was fighting went for one Fair too many offstage, and lost their gimp opportunity when I countered through it to return to the stage. Ness' grabs themselves are short range and his approach options are lacking if the enemy isn't enveloped in a PK fire. This is a matchup where I primarily run (not dash) for my approach, and keep my finger over the shield button in case PK fire is coming. If Ness reacts to your run with a shield, then you can dash grab, or run past and pivot grab if there is room behind him. Dash attack is not a useful approach in this fight, since you want to avoid a shield grab at all costs. But you can still use it to cover Ness' landings.

Jolt Haymaker from the ground is valuable. You can use it to leap clean over PK Fire as well and punish him before he can raise his shield. Ness' aerials are strong and outclass his punier, slower ground attacks. If you are launched above him, take care to mix up your air dodges, counters, and fast falls in order to evade those aerials and PK Thunder. Ness is light and has many risky options that Mac can punish from the stage, so take every bit of rage you can as you keep yourself alive with super armor. If Ness refuses to approach, you need to get that grab and F/Bthrow him to the center of the stage where you can fight on your terms.

If Ness isn't sitting at the edges of the stage, he'll spend most of neutral airborne. Remember, his tilts and smashes are garbage at catching approaches due to their long windup and low damage. He'll rely on rising Fairs and falling Nairs to keep you out. Smash through them with Fsmash, upward F smash, and Usmash. Be mindful that he will occasionally empty hop to bait these attacks, and Usmash affords him much more time to punish. If you in danger of being grabbed after a whiffed move, your frame 1 jab is your friend.

In addition, you can counter his PK Thunder 2 as he tries to recover for a sure kill. Getting back to the stage can be difficult without the tornado uppercut and grounding blow customs, but it is definitely possible with default specials, and very satisfying. Just be sure to mash that double jump button to return to the stage whether you connect or whiff. Mac's standard counter is definitely the best among his counters for this application. Dash counter probably won't secure a kill offstage every time, but that one comes out a frame earlier and will better help you escape Fair strings offstage. Just remember that you should be attempting to Di away the entire time, not just counter.

As for the stages, I'd say that platforms and small spaces are a general obstacle against a punish character like Ness. Battlefield features both of these, so I'd spend a strike on that. Halberd and most other counterpick stages can also prove difficult if Ness decides to platform camp and force you to jump. Final Destination and Smashville can work well. The longer a stage is, the more space your opponent needs to take you in order to gimp for an early kill. Lylat will be risky for both of you when recovering/edgeguarding. If the tournament allows for omega stages along with FD, Consider choosing an omega where wall jumping is a possibility.

I'd say the matchup is even, possibly even in Mac's favor. And I think Mac will take any even matchup he can get in Smash 4. Practice up so you win this fight in tourneys.
 

Venks

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Ness Discussion

While not as many people play This Kid as they play Diddy Kong, Ness is still a relatively common foe in tournament play. He may not be the largest threat Little Mac has, but from his juggles to his gimp potential he can still be a terror if you don't know how to deal with him.

How do you typically deal with this matchup?
Once a Ness has you in the air or a Dthrow>Fair combo, what do you do?
What stages do you like to counterpick Ness to and why?
What problems do you find yourself facing in this matchup?


I've noticed that LM can sometimes counter through PK Fire, and that he can also Rising uppercut out of it.


Also, I apologize for the delay on starting this Matchup discussion and compiling the information on the Diddy Discussion. I'll have the information up as soon as possible.
I deal with this matchup by switching characters. I personally find this a 10-0 matchup. Like I think the Ness player has to be completely unaware of the matchup in order to lose.

Essentially everytime Ness gets a grab in this matchup that's a potential stock loss. Ness can take us further off-stage than any other character. A semi-decent Ness is not going to hit our counter and will just let us fall to our own demise.

This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so easy for Ness to get grabs. Most of our attacks are unsafe on block. We really only have up tilt and down tilt. These options are also unsafe unless spaced carefully. This leads to more cautious play, but a Mac who hesitates is free to grab. Also careful spacing is beat pretty handily by retreating PK Fires.

Little Mac just doesn't have any good approach in this matchup. And a smart Ness will play patient and wait for his chance to grab. That one grab in the hands of a good Ness is a lost stock.

Australia's highest ranking player is a Villager/Ness main. I've played her many times and have found winning against her with LM to be impossible. Another of Australia's top players is a LM player and he loses to her for free just as easily.
His advice for the matchup was: "Try to always stay with the rest of the stage to your back. That way Ness can't take you too far offstage off of a down throw."

That said he usually always get 2-stocked by Ness. Ness can just back throw around 70~80 percent to throw us far away enough from the stage that we can't recover. Diddy Kong's throws wrack up percent, but Ness just takes stocks.

Don't get me wrong I beat Ness players fairly often, but their skill level is generally pretty low at my local tournaments. Any Ness I've played in regional tournaments has made it clear how the matchup stands.
 
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PHYTO-1

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I agree, Ness is pretty much an auto-win.

Its hard to get in on a Ness because staying within close range is already too dangerous. His grab game destroys us. The whole matchup depends on whether Ness gets a grab or not. His PK fire also keeps us at bay (though it should be noted that you can Jolt Haymaker out of it) and if hit by it, sets up for a grab. His aerial game also wrecks us, and whats worse is that his down-throw sets up for aerial combos. Did I mention how easy it is for us to get gimped by PK Thunder?

Little Mac doesnt stand a chance.
 

SpaceJell0

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Little Mac's main enemies vs. Ness are:
1) Grab-DThrow-FAir-FAir (I believe this is DI-able at the start if you hold left or up after DThrow, I can't remember which it is)
2) Back Throw which is pretty obvious due to it's power. This is a big factor in all Ness MUs though so it's the same problem most characters have with avoiding being grabbed made more difficult with Mac's recovery.
3) PK Thunder is the main concern thanks to that tail hitbox. Gimps are a Mac main's greatest fear.
 
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PHYTO-1

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3) PK Thunder is the main concern thanks to that tail hitbox. Gimps are a Mac main's greatest fear.
not to mention Ness has a huge doublejump + his recovery covers a good distance, so Ness is not afraid to go deep for the gimp.
 

BJN39

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Hello Little Macs! The Zeldas have started discussing the Little Mac MU, and we'd love input from the Macs on it.

:4zelda: Click Zelda to be teleported directly to the Zelda MU thread!
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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Due to the upcoming balance changes, I'm going to close the ness matchup discussion for now. We will continue on specific character matchup discussions after we assess balance changes in the mewtwo update.
 
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Due to the upcoming balance changes, I'm going to close the ness matchup discussion for now. We will continue on specific character matchup discussions after we assess balance changes in the mewtwo update.
After Ness, should we focus on Mewtwo, so as to learn his metagame early and know what we're dealing with?
 
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PHYTO-1

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currently, i feel that the mewtwo/mac matchup is 100:0 in our favor.

he doesnt yet exist and therefore we automatically win.
 

Actilide

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Zapp Branniglenn

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Looks like Mewtwo's Side B confusion is back for Smash 4. And that means he's got a command grab to use on us. His Back and Upward throws in Melee were no joke, and will probably be good kill moves for this game as well. Other than that, he should be a lightweight, which means early percent KOs. I think the MU won't look good, but there's hope. I don't see Mac having trouble getting past long range tail attacks like other characters will. Mewtwo's Usmash can be armored if we fall through with neutral B, and his Nair is also multihit, letting us Smash through it from the ground with ease.
 

PHYTO-1

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can i just ask that we hold off on any mewtwo discussion until next month, or at least until he is available for purchase?
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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can i just ask that we hold off on any mewtwo discussion until next month, or at least until he is available for purchase?
I agree with this. I feel we also need to give time for everyone to figure him out thoroughly before we try to go indepth in his discussion, as well as time for us and everyone to locate every possible change with characters/smash 4 itself. Baby steps guys, just like before...
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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I would still like to know if there are any counters against this guy.
I'd still like to know what this guy does. We need that info first :X It's hard to completely know a characters limits in one day. Plus, not everyone has access to him to test it out.
 
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