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Smash 4 Speculation Chart [WE UPDATE NOW]

[Corn]

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Im basically hoping that Ganon (or his reincarnated self...) and Ice Climbers will return.

But that new mewtwo thing will be Zoarark or whatever its called. I dont want that to be in but it looks like the #1 canidate to fill the spot.
 

Swamp Sensei

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This thread has become the place I go when I wanna see people fight.

Popcorn anyone?
 

Neanderthal

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So... by ignoring my post I assume you admit that there's no consistent logical criteria for choosing the characters? That you just go with what you feel like?
 
D

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Not seeing post =/= Ignoring post

You wanted my reply, here's my reply:

Not at all. The difference is Goku and Master Chief are not Nintendo Icons with a very realistic chance of getting in, all things considered.
"Very realistic chance". I wasn't aware near zero is "realistic". I swear, you are reminding me SO much of Ove.


Am I wrong is assuming that the main criteria that you are using is estimated chance of inclusion in SSB4?
(ALL things considered to estimate this chance)
First off, why in the bloody Hell would you make your font this big? Do you honestly think you make a better point if you use larger font?
Also, I have given reasoning for every character on the list. The fact you dare ask this question irritates me.
Iconic status is a valid consideration that can make up for chance reduction made by the Brawl quote.
No it isn't. If being iconic was the main thing, more than half of the chart would be Mario and Pokemon characters regardless of how likely they are.

If so, you need to honestly believe that Mii has a smaller chance of inclusion than virtually every other character on your list.
No I don't. You see, characters are generally judged within their series on the chart. They are NOT judged between characters outside their series.
You must believe that Mii has less chance than Heihachi Mishma, Waddle Dee and Slippy for example. Is that so?[/quote]
Very few people actually GIVE a **** about the Mii in Smash speculation, whereas Waddle Dee is pretty much the go-to guy for a Kirby Newcomer (especially in Japan, being one of their Top 10 characters in general), Slippy gets as much discussion within Japan as Krystal, and Heihachi is the FACE of Tekken. So yeah, a generic avatar deemed too casual for Smash Bros. does have less chance than them.

I agree that the Brawl Sakurai quote makes his chances smaller. But it is a long way from ruling out his inclusion and it certainly doesn't make him less likely than everyone on the chart.
I suppose you're going to say I should add Sukapon, Excitebiker, Bubbles, and Urban Champion to the chart as well, because Sakurai said negative things about them in Melee, and this is far from Melee's time?
That'd be no different than adding a bunch of random anime characters continuously requested or Microsoft/Sony characters because what Sakurai said about those kinds of characters "only applying to Brawl". They sure as Hell get more requests than Miis, ironically enough.
You have to be mad to consider Mii still at a lower chance than characters like the aforementioned or other more obscure characters you included.
So I have to be "mad" because you don't know what the **** you are talking about because characters you personally find unlikely are on the chart while something you personally find likely is not?
Now you REALLY remind me of Ove. I'm actually considering just setting you to Ignore like I did to him.

If I'm wrong in assuming that chance of inclusion in SSB4 is the main criteria for appearance on your chart, then you need to make that clear in order to protect the credibility of this chart.
I don't have to do jack **** to "protect my credibility" to someone who is rather ignorant.
 

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When you're fishing for trolls, you *know* something needs to happen. I'll just go sit on the beach and wait for the Gangplank Galleon to pull up, then...
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

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Just 2 months and 1 1/2 week left until we see Golden do his marking job. It will be worth it when it happens.
 

Neanderthal

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I thought I was participating in a civilised discussion about a game we're all looking forward to and helping to critique this speculative chart. But it appears you have some emotional growing up to do.

I get the feeling you're a bit of an unhappy emotionally tense kind of kid, so if continuing this discussion brings you too much stress or "irritates" you too much then don't worry about it and just skip reading this post.





First off, why in the bloody Hell would you make your font this big? Do you honestly think you make a better point if you use larger font?
No. I was signalling to you that those were the main points so that you knew they were the things I most valued being addressed. This thread uses a very small font compared to most forums to begin with so I didn't think that it would be so intrusive to you.




Also, I have given reasoning for every character on the list. The fact you dare ask this question irritates me.

No it isn't. If being iconic was the main thing, more than half of the chart would be Mario and Pokemon characters regardless of how likely they are.


I didn't say that being iconic was the main thing. I said that being iconic is a "valid consideration", just like the Brawl quote is.

Half the Pokemon and Mario characters are not iconic.
An iconic character would be the first characters that come to mind when you think of a popular series/platform, often used in marketing and are recognisable by the series they represent.
i.e. "Pikachu is an icon of the pokemon series, Snorlax is not"

Mii's are one of the first things that come to mind when you think of the Wii/Wii U as well as a few extremely popular Wii game series.

Sakurai may no longer see Mii as a generic avatar due to this status and synonymity with the Wii platforms.


I suppose you're going to say I should add Sukapon, Excitebiker, Bubbles, and Urban Champion to the chart as well, because Sakurai said negative things about them in Melee, and this is far from Melee's time?
That'd be no different than adding a bunch of random anime characters continuously requested or Microsoft/Sony characters because what Sakurai said about those kinds of characters "only applying to Brawl". They sure as Hell get more requests than Miis, ironically enough .
I believe I've already distinguished the difference here. Mii has had a change in status with the huge success of it's games and becoming a symbol of Nintendo's Wii era.

"Very realistic chance". I wasn't aware near zero is "realistic". I swear, you are reminding me SO much of Ove.
Mii's chance of getting into a smash game is almost 0%?
Certainly not an opinion shared by many other people and seems influenced by your emotional feelings towards the subject. I would personally rate Mii's chances at closer to 25%. A relatively high figure compared to most on the chart.



No I don't. You see, characters are generally judged within their series on the chart. They are NOT judged between characters outside their series.

Very few people actually GIVE a **** about the Mii in Smash speculation, whereas Waddle Dee is pretty much the go-to guy for a Kirby Newcomer (especially in Japan, being one of their Top 10 characters in general), Slippy gets as much discussion within Japan as Krystal, and Heihachi is the FACE of Tekken(edit: Really? Yes to most prominent (but not most popular) villain. Not the face of Tekken. Mii is the face of the Wii generation of Nintendo gaming.) So yeah, a generic avatar deemed too casual for Smash Bros. does have less chance than them.
You make some valid points here and I agree that relatively few people care about Mii. But still more than people cared about Mr Game and Watch or R.O.B of whom are inclusions of similar like (Representations of Nintendo periods or ideas. Mii is a representation of the Mii period and the revolutionary idea of Wii motion that changed console gaming history).
 

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I agree you have some valid points about Mii's, but their inclusion is typically separate from the main games. (For instance, see their inclusion in Super Mario Bros. U) I forsee an appearance, but it might not be what you'd expect. I will however grant that Mii's *did* appear in a Mario sports game in Mario Kart Wii, and in Tennis Open on the 3DS, but their translation in Smash might not work the same way, considering they would need both a moveset and a customization feature. However, I disagree that half of the Pokemon characters are not iconic.

Pikachu? Red (and *all* of his Pokemon), Jiggs and Lucario (Also Mewtwo) are pretty heavy players to anyone that kept up or is still keeping up with the series. (Unless this is about Pokeball Pokemon and not playables, but I don't see how that'd matter, really. If so, disregard this bit.)
 

Swamp Sensei

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Well we got another debate. Careful what you wish for.

I think this one could go either way. Both sides are intelligent and have good points.
 

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Swamp, your avatar makes me laugh every single time I see it. It's just too good.
 

Neanderthal

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I agree you have some valid points about Mii's, but their inclusion is typically separate from the main games. (For instance, see their inclusion in Super Mario Bros. U) I forsee an appearance, but it might not be what you'd expect. I will however grant that Mii's *did* appear in a Mario sports game in Mario Kart Wii, and in Tennis Open on the 3DS, but their translation in Smash might not work the same way, considering they would need both a moveset and a customization feature.
I agree and very good points.

However, I disagree that half of the Pokemon characters are not iconic.

Pikachu? Red (and *all* of his Pokemon), Jiggs and Lucario (Also Mewtwo) are pretty heavy players to anyone that kept up or is still keeping up with the series. (Unless this is about Pokeball Pokemon and not playables, but I don't see how that'd matter, really. If so, disregard this bit.)
It all really depends on your definition of the word and what context you're using it in.
i.e. Mew Two is not an icon of the greater gaming community, but he IS an icon of the pokemon gaming community.




It also doesn't necessarily have to be so black and white, there can be varying degrees of iconic status'.


To me, a truly iconic gaming character is generally one who is recognised by gamers largely unfamiliar with a given series (often as a result as being used as one of the focus points in its marketing).

For example if you mentioned the Pokemon games to someone who has never played them they might say... "Oh that game where you catch and train monsters like pikachu" :laugh:
Pikachu and the pokemon trainer are both recognised, showing their iconic status and synonymity with the series outside of the Pokemon gaming community.

Or if you mentioned Halo to me which I know little of, the thing that comes to my mind is Master Chief and his suite. That guy with the cool suite who fights aliens....



But yes a character like MewTwo or Lucario could be regarded as iconic in a more subcultural kind of way.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I think ManBearPig is trying to say that there is a hierarchy of iconic status.

Donald Duck and Goofy are both iconic cartoon characters, yet they are not as iconic as Mickey Mouse.
 

fogbadge

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I suppose you're going to say I should add Sukapon, Excitebiker, Bubbles, and Urban Champion to the chart as well, because Sakurai said negative things about them in Melee, and this is far from Melee's time?
didnt he also say negative things about the balloon fighter as well

i'd also like to make it clear im not taking sides
 

Banjodorf

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It all really depends on your definition of the word and what context you're using it in.
i.e. Mew Two is not an icon of the greater gaming community, but he IS an icon of the pokemon gaming community.


It also doesn't necessarily have to be so black and white, there can be varying degrees of iconic status'.
Heh, it's true, there are definitely different levels of iconic status. For Pokemon it might be a little more broad, at least in my generation (people in their early-mid 20s) as a number of people who are no longer "gamers" still technically grew up with Pokemon and would view First generation as iconic, and if someone brought up Pokemon, I'd say there's a good chance Pikachu, the starters and even Mewtwo or Jiggs would come to mind. Lucario is *definitely* subculture, though.

In a general sense though, the only true "iconic" Pokemon is Pikachu here, like you said. It literally *is* the series icon.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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See the problem with being "iconic" with this chart is that most of the characters left for Smash are hardly iconic to people who either haven't played the game or don't play games anymore. So iconic is a very strong word when using it for this chart.
 

Banjodorf

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It's true, I was going to mention the very same thing. For instance, let's take the characters in my signature, which may or may not show up.

K. Rool
Ridley
Little Mac
Takamaru
Dixie

Of those, I'd say only Little Mac could qualify as iconic, but that's as part of a subculture. Dixie as well, in a sense. Takamaru *might* be iconic in Japan, but otherwise he's going to be a left-field choice. K. Rool will be "Isn't that the guy from Donkey Kong?" and Ridley will get the same treatment. This has already happened tons of times with playable characters in Smash. Iconic status only really applies to some. (Lucas, Ice Climbers, Wolf are some characters who just don't get that.)

Edit: One thing worth mentioning, is that of those, Little Mac is one of the only characters I hear about nowadays from casual players. Him, or Mega Man, or some character that isn't going to make the cut. Like Master Chief.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the newcomers for Sm4sh are going to primarily appeal to subcultures and decently-big Nintendo fans, because our pool is small and full of niches.
 

FlareHabanero

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Super Smash Bros. always leaned towards more of the hardcore Nintendo fans ever since the beginning. Iconic status is kind of a sketchy subject considering we've had unexpected choices in the past with characters like Ness, Mr. Game & Watch, the Ice Climbers, and R.O.B. If you want to push it further to the average Joe crowd, throw in stuff like Captain Falcon, Marth, Fox, Pit, and Snake too.

Let's just clarify that what is and isn't iconic is a subjective matter, and shouldn't really be hard pressed. If the average person doesn't even know 80% of the characters anyway, then why should we complain as to what would be considered an iconic figure?
 
D

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didnt he also say negative things about the balloon fighter as well

i'd also like to make it clear im not taking sides
He did; which is why I meant to cut Balloon Fighter instead of Muddy Mole in the chart, and somehow I messed up with that.
They will be swapped out in the next update.
For TW101:
At the end of this video from the official Platinum Games account (1:28) we see Nintendo/PlatinumGamesInc. I also have this showing Nintendo holds the trademark.

and for the hell of it, Sakurai gave Kamiya a copy of Kid Icarus Uprising :p
Thanks. I will add Wonderful 101 Guy back to the chart in the next update.

I thought I was participating in a civilised discussion about a game we're all looking forward to and helping to critique this speculative chart. But it appears you have some emotional growing up to do.

I get the feeling you're a bit of an unhappy emotionally tense kind of kid, so if continuing this discussion brings you too much stress or "irritates" you too much then don't worry about it and just skip reading this post.
You show me nothing but pure arrogance, and you have the nerve to say something like this when I retaliate?
After this post:
So... by ignoring my post I assume you admit that there's no consistent logical criteria for choosing the characters? That you just go with what you feel like?
What did you think was going to happen? That I was going to be sweet and nice-like as I respond to your previous post with the upmost kindness?
Here's a tip: If you want to reinstate that someone has yet to reply to your points, just remind the person they haven't responded to them.
If you had done that instead of acting as though I admitted to anything, I wouldn't have been infuriated and lashed out at you. (And quite frankly, you are lucky I held off before I responded, otherwise, you would have been hit with much worse than what you got.)





No. I was signalling to you that those were the main points so that you knew they were the things I most valued being addressed. This thread uses a very small font compared to most forums to begin with so I didn't think that it would be so intrusive to you.
Being in many forums in my day, I have learned to associate large font with ignorant newbs that thing large font makes their arguments more sound.
Seeing as that was not your intention, I apologize. But let me give you advice: You want to make your main points more noticeable without being annoying, bold them instead of increasing the font size and/or change the color.








I didn't say that being iconic was the main thing. I said that being iconic is a "valid consideration", just like the Brawl quote is.
It really isn't. They were iconic prior to Brawl, and were deemed "too casual" to be included as characters. Still being iconic now isn't going to make much difference. At most, it will probably give them cameos somewhere like in a Nintendo Land stage or a Wuhu Island stage.

Half the Pokemon and Mario characters are not iconic.
An iconic character would be the first characters that come to mind when you think of a popular series/platform, often used in marketing and are recognisable by the series they represent.
i.e. "Pikachu is an icon of the pokemon series, Snorlax is not"
This is where you are wrong. Even common enemies like the GOOMBA are memorable, recogniseable, and iconic to the Mario series. And even used in marketing.
Same with the Pokemon, including the human characters such as Pokemon Trainer Red.

Mii's are one of the first things that come to mind when you think of the Wii/Wii U as well as a few extremely popular Wii game series.

Sakurai may no longer see Mii as a generic avatar due to this status and synonymity with the Wii platforms.
Again, it was the same way during Brawl's time (the only difference is that the Wii U did not exist). They were still "too casual".
And in both cases, Miis are not popular requests for inclusion. Giving Sakurai less of a reason to include them.


I believe I've already distinguished the difference here. Mii has had a change in status with the huge success of it's games and becoming a symbol of Nintendo's Wii era.
It was already a symbol.


Mii's chance of getting into a smash game is almost 0%?
Certainly not an opinion shared by many other people and seems influenced by your emotional feelings towards the subject. I would personally rate Mii's chances at closer to 25%. A relatively high figure compared to most on the chart.
The only thing you have going for them is that "Sakurai could change his mind because they are iconic". I personally am indifferent about the Miis in general; neither positive nor negative about them in emotion. However, I will not deny that things are not looking good for them.
And compared to most on the chart? Lol, I'd LOVE to see your reasoning behind that. I'm good for a laugh. :laugh:



You make some valid points here and I agree that relatively few people care about Mii. But still more than people cared about Mr Game and Watch or R.O.B of whom are inclusions of similar like (Representations of Nintendo periods or ideas. Mii is a representation of the Mii period and the revolutionary idea of Wii motion that changed console gaming history).
Unless you have valid proof that more people care about Miis than they did R.O.B. or G&W, don't use it as fact.
 

Banjodorf

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Wait a minute, why cut Balloon Fighter off the chart now? Drop in popularity? Sakurai? I mean, I'd much rather see Takamaru, but I'm still curious. The game hasn't been announced yet, we can't say anything for sure.
 
D

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Balloon Fighter was never really a strong request, and was stated to be "useless without his balloons" by Sakurai in why he was denied in Melee.
Whereas we have Takamaru, who Sakurai has expressed interest in (as well as being currently the only "retro" fans seem to care about within both America and Japan), Muddy Mole, who he claimed was interesting and joked about him possibly being in Brawl's roster, Mach Rider, who Sakurai claimed as a hopeful he had for "Smash 2", and Lip, who Sakurai said was from a masterpiece of a game that people should try (though he did question on how many people would know her).

With Sakurai's statement about how if there was another character/series he wanted to revive, it would be through Smash 4, and his (apparent) statement that he will try his best to include older characters (I have yet to see a source on this), these four characters are prime suspects.
 

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Well alright then, that clears that up for me. It'd be very nice to see more than one "retro", honestly. Takamaru + Mach Rider go! (I honestly know nothing about Muddy Mole, but I'm sure he'd be interesting too. The more the merrier.)
 

Opossum

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D

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Well alright then, that clears that up for me. It'd be very nice to see more than one "retro", honestly. Takamaru + Mach Rider go! (I honestly know nothing about Muddy Mole, but I'm sure he'd be interesting too. The more the merrier.)
Well alright then, that clears that up for me. It'd be very nice to see more than one "retro", honestly. Takamaru + Mach Rider go! (I honestly know nothing about Muddy Mole, but I'm sure he'd be interesting too. The more the merrier.)
The more the merrier.
The more the merrier.
 

Banjodorf

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The link didn't work, but I found the thread, thanks!

Well, simply put, you've sold me on that one. He seems fun, likely, and very interesting as an addition. I still put more support towards Takamaru, who I infact think is at a three way tie for #1 wanted newcomer with K. Rool and Mac right now, but if there are two Retros, I honestly hope both of them make it. Yay!

@Golden

I don't even know what I've done!!!
 

Banjodorf

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I'm honestly confused as to where he even says that. Was it in Generations? It sounds like that VA.
 

Swamp Sensei

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You know what they say, THE MORE THE MERRIER!
You know what they say, THE MORE THE MERRIER!
You know what they say, THE MORE THE MERRIER!
You know what they say, THE MORE THE MERRIER!
You know what they say, THE MORE THE MERRIER!
Oh cool! You watched the video too!
 
D

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I'm honestly confused as to where he even says that. Was it in Generations? It sounds like that VA.
It's from Shadow the Hedgehog in the Egg Breaker boss fights. Every time you are away from him, he spawns these balls covered in energy all around him, and sends them flying out in all horizontal directions while saying that line.
It gets so common that the line became memetic.
 

Banjodorf

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That'd be it then. I never played Shadow the Hedgehog, so I guess I missed that. At least now I know...that the more...the merrier.
 
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