Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[ZeusLink]

Limit Break is Cloud's saving grace. Without it, he'd be a 1/2 trick pony, and have a 2% chance of getting back onstage.

 

[RedMarf78]

Marth already has a hoo-hah, it only woks at like zero to ten percent though (and with bad DI)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Oh, believe me, as I Roy player I know exactly what gravity is and how it affects people. As nice as lower gravity for Jigglypuff would be, I wouldn't take it if it comes at the cost of higher falling speed.

Yeah I think that Jigglypuff needs to have the weakest falling speed of any fighter, since it "is" known as the Balloon Pokemon. This goes double for its fast-falling speed.

 

[Derpnaster]

Without a doubt, Honestly I'd give Jiggs LESS falling speed so she can stay in the air longer and tush body peeps over the edge longer.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Questions to the person suggesting Doc buffs.

1. Are you suggesting adjusting the damage before the 1.12 (or is it 1.2) multiplier is applied? Do you plan on even keeping the multiplier?
2. Why did you suggest reducing the knock of up air instead of changing the angle? I would rather have less horizontal knockback on Up Air.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yeah I think that Jigglypuff needs to have the weakest falling speed of any fighter, since it "is" known as the Balloon Pokemon. This goes double for its fast-falling speed.

Even beyond that, the way Jigglypuff plays revolves around her slow falling speed. She'd actually be worse if she were to fall faster, crazy as that sounds.

Now speaking of which, do you know who actually needs their attributes changed? Roy. It's like his air game wants to be good, but it can't be because Roy falls faster than a metal brick.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Even beyond that, the way Jigglypuff plays revolves around her slow falling speed. She'd actually be worse if she were to fall faster, crazy as that sounds.

Now speaking of which, do you know who actually needs their attributes changed? Roy. It's like his air game wants to be good, but it can't be because Roy falls faster than a metal brick.

Another way to solve that problem would be to give him some better autocancels. Nothing he has autocancels out of a short hop. Hell, just one aerial autocancelling out of a short hop would give him a very strong pressure tool.

I still prefer giving Roy a working grab game, but whatever works.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Another way to solve that problem would be to give him some better autocancels. Nothing he has autocancels out of a short hop. Hell, just one aerial autocancelling out of a short hop would give him a very strong pressure tool.

Definitely. Roy's autocancel windows are horrible. I don't understand why either, because if memory serves they were decent in Melee. At any rate, neutral and forward airs definitely need better autocancel windows.

 

[ZeusLink]

I think Roy's grab game is already great, to be honest. I recall him having one of the best in the game. One character in need of a grab game at all would be Toon Link.

 

[Deleted member]

BOWSER NERFS

Bowser wasn't nerfed. The change listed in the OP lowers the KBG of his Up Throw back to what it was in 1.1.3 when it could combo at higher percents. Whether or not this was the best decision is another story, but it still wasn't a nerf.

(those were the only ones I looked at, I couldn't bear to see what other balancing decisions were made)

Well then you should probably take a look so that you can make a more informed post in the future. Saying "these changes suck!" doesn't really contribute anything, especially when you didn't even look at most of them.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think Roy's grab game is already great, to be honest. I recall him having one of the best in the game. One character in need of a grab game at all would be Toon Link.

Only Roy's forward throw is worth a damn. The rest are situational at best. His down throw doesn't have enough hitstun to really do its job, his back throw has too much ending lag to be of use, and his up throw kills too late.

 

[;~;]

Cloud

Spoiler

• Jab 1:
  • Hitboxes 1 and 2 extended by 3 units.
• Jab 2:
  • Hitbox 2 extended by 1 unit.
  • Damage: 2 -> 3
• Jab 3:
  • Damage: 3.5 -> 4.5
• Up Tilt:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 10 -> Frame 4 - 10
  • Startup: Frame 6 -> Frame 6 (1.5* FSM until Frame 4 keep the original startup)
  • FAF: Frame 33 -> Frame 32
• Down Tilt:
  • Leg Intangibility removed. (It was redundant, as it was on the wrong leg)
• Up Smash:
  • Stale Hit Damage: 8 -> 10
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 8
  • Hitbox 0 extended by 3 units.
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 18 Frames -> 19 Frames
  • Damage: 14/14/13/13 -> 16/16/14.5/14.5
  • KBG: 90/100/83/83 -> 90/100/88/88
• Down Air:
  • Hitbox 0 Damage: 15 -> 14
  • Hitbox 0 KBG: 100 -> 95
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 105 -> 95
  • Lingering Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 43 -> Frame 14 - 39
• Blade Beam:
  • Projectile hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit and extended upward by 2 units
• Cross Slash:
  • Hit 1 and Hit 2 Angles, BKB, WKB, and KBG edited to match Limit Break version.
  • Hit 2 Damage: 3 -> 2
  • Hits 3 and 4 Damage reduced by 1 ( 3 -> 2)
• Climhazard:
  • Hitbox 1 BKB: 130 -> 80
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 25 -> 50
• Cross Slash (Limit Break):
  • Hit 5 Damage: 10 -> 9
  • Hit 5 Angle: 50 -> 60
  • Hit 5 KBG: 163 -> 140
• Finishing Touch:
  • Intangibility added on Frames 5 - 10.
  • Back Hit KGB: 390 -> 417

If only....

;~;

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bowser wasn't nerfed. The change listed in the OP lowers the KBG of his Up Throw back to what it was in 1.1.3 when it could combo at higher percents. Whether or not this was the best decision is another story, but it still wasn't a nerf.

It's a nerf, new up throw is better.

Well then you should probably take a look so that you can make a more informed post in the future. Saying "these changes suck!" doesn't really contribute anything, especially when you didn't even look at most of them.

well it's not my fault they do suck

Why should I look further when I glanced at like 3 characters and felt like vomiting

Do you even know who I am, fam?

 

[ZeusLink]

Do you even know who I am, fam?

A

 

[MarioMeteor]

Do you even know who I am, fam?

Full of yourself, I'm thinking.

 

[Dyl8220]

Why pre-patch Diddy tho? I've been playing around with him and he feels just as braindead and unfair as he felt back in the day...

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I just finished around a hundred online matches with Bowser and man oh man do his weakness stand out.
Aside from being combo food, Bowser has a lot of difficultly approaching due to his quick moves having little range and his long range attacks having high start up and cool down. His other weakness comes in the form of landing, since King Koopa suffers from being a large target with no safe landing options to challenge the opponent, he's better off just Bowser Bombing to the edge.


So here's a list of buffs I'd like to see for Rooki- eh Bowser:

Spoiler: List

Attributes

• Jumpsquat: 8 frames < 5 frames
• Speed up Initial Dash 14 frames < 11 frames

Ground Attacks

• Jab 1: WBKB 45/30/18 < 39/24/12. (That way it will always link into Jab 2)
• Jab 1, 2 & Ftilt: Add new Hitboxes and Windboxes on the front of Bowser to remove the blind spot and character going behind Bowser. (Example)
• Utilt: 11-16 (Arm Intangible: 12-16) < 8-13 (Arm Intangible: 8-13)
• Dtilt 2nd Hit: Dmg-11 & BKB-12 < Dmg-14 & BKB-20 (Basically matching the 1st Hit's data)
• Fsmash: Replace the late sour spot hitboxes with new sweet spots hitboxes. Legs Intangible: 20-25 < Legs Intangible: 20-27
• Dsmash Hits 2-6: Dmg 1 < 1.3. On frames 10-31 receive windboxes pulling the opponent in like a vacuum effect similar to Ganondorf's utilt or Sheik's side b.
• Dthrow: Angle 50 < 12, BKB 90 < 55, KBG 50 < 40 and reduce the FAF by 8 frames (Hopefully this turns it into a tech chase throw similar to Ganon's Side B.)

Aerial Attacks

• Nair: Auto Cancel window 1-3, 45> < 1-3, 25> OR Landing lag 20 frames < 14 frames
• Fair: Landing Lag 24 frames < 16 frames
• Biar: Landing Lag 40 frames < 22 frames
• Uair: Auto Cancel window 1-2, 40> < 1-3, 31> & Landing lag 28 frames < 18 frames
• Dair (Meteor): Active Hitbox 17-24 < 9-16
• Dair: Active Hitbox 25-49 < 17-41

Special Moves

• Fire Breath: Active Hitbox 23, 30, 37... < 18, 25, 32... (Flinchless 28, 35, 42... < 23, 30, 37...) & FAF 78 < 64. Base Dmg on all hits 1.2 < 1.7
• Flying Slam/Koopa Klaw (Command Grab, All Versions): Hitbox Active 8/17 < 7-9 & add new hitboxes through Bowsers Arm to remove the blind spot. (Example)
• Flying Slam/Koopa Klaw Hitbox/Landing: 25% less cool down. (So it can potentially combo into Fair at low percents)
• Whirling Fortress (Ground): Hits 1-5 Untechable. (If possible, allow Bowser to fall off stage with it similar to Ganon like in Melee.)
• Whirling Fortress (Aerial) Hit 1: BKB 80 < 65, KGB 60 < 115
• Whirling Fortress (Aerial) Hit 7-11: KGB 20 < 125 (Potentially letting this kill)
• Bowser Bomb Hit 1: Active Hitbox 11 < 9 OR increase the hitbox vertically all the way to the ground.
• Bowser Bomb (Landing): Increase the boxes horizontally by 5 units, Active Hitboxes 1-2 < 1-10 Dmg 11 < 6.5 Angle 76 < 26, add electric stun effect. (This basically gives Bowser Bomb a shock-wave sort of like DK's Down B. The electric stun effect is based on the shock-waves from the Bowser boss fights in Super Mario 64.)

I know some of these are a bit much to ask, so I understand if they never happen.

 

[Deleted member]

It's a nerf, new up throw is better.

I disagree. The reason they raised the KBG in 1.1.4 is because of how easily it led into Up Air at kill percents before.

well it's not my fault they do suck

It is your fault for not offering constructive criticism, the key word being constructive. Why are you even here if you have no in interest in actually helping these guys make a decent mod?

Why should I look further when I glanced at like 3 characters and felt like vomiting

Because the changes to the other characters could be perfectly reasonable. And if they aren't, then you should be able to explain why instead of just complaining. You can't make an informed post if you refuse to even look at all of the information.

felt like vomiting

Reel it in drama club.

Do you even know who I am, fam?

Yeah, you compiled a lot of frame data for the game, which is great, but it is irrelevant to the fact that your post didn't offer anything constructive. FYI, asking if people know who you are rarely ever results in them respecting you or your opinions more.

 

[Deleted member]

GameWatch really needs buffs. On a [semi] side note, I should be able to start a Sm4sh mod soon, I just have to repair my Wii U.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I disagree. The reason they raised the KBG in 1.1.4 is because of how easily it led into Up Air at kill percents before

Hello, who is the Bowser player here, is it me or is it you

The new one is better because it kills way earlier

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because I really don't think you "get" it.

Edit: I am horrified that I have to explain why buffs to Diddy Kong and Cloud are a bad idea, please don't respond to me

 

[MarioMeteor]

Hello, who is the Bowser player here, is it me or is it you

The new one is better because it kills way earlier

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because I really don't think you "get" it.

Edit: I am horrified that I have to explain why buffs to Diddy Kong and Cloud are a bad idea, please don't respond to me

I'm horrified that you were a moderator at one point.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The Diddy Kong and Cloud buffs are horrible ideas though. No matter how you try to justify it... they're both top 3 characters already. They should be getting zero buffs and quite a noticeable number of nerfs without compensation for them.

Like Diddy for example, should have the buffs undone, his Dtilt nerfed (that thing is busted, could use both a damage reduction and more ending lag), and his Fair nerfed (shave off a percent, tack on a few more bits of landing lag) as starters. Beyond that, a few light taps to his Usmash and Fsmash making them kill 5-10% later wouldn't be out of order either.

Those changes don't destroy him at all. He would still be very much playable and probably still in the top 5 depending on how the dust settled once everyone was looked at. But it tackles some of his biggest tools (Dtilt and Fair) while making sure his weakness of "on average subpar KOing times" is also enforced (smash tweaks). He'd still be a damage wracking machine with crazy mobility options out of his specials and kill set ups with his banana.

Cloud is pretty straight forwards: undo the buffs (except maybe the Blade Beam one), nerf Cross Slash Limit Break, further nerf Uair and Dair, slightly nerf his speed related attributes across the board to make holding onto Limit Break for the passive buffs something to consider more.

Realistically, if a character can be considered top 10 they shouldn't be getting any buffs at all. At most bug fixes because well, a bug is a bug and might as well squash it.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Almost everyone around here agrees that Bowser's KBG change in 1.1.4 was a nerf. Most people would rather have a solid stock cap that works fairly early than a option that kills around a narrow band of percentages.

And if you read the cloud changes carefully, you'll see it's a net nerf. Yes, he got some small buffs, but they're to undertuned options no one bothers to use in competitive play. Limit Cross Slash, which is the option that is usually thrown out for kills, got a sizable reduction to its knockback growth.

I disagree with a lot of opinions around here, but that doesn't diminish my respect for what this mod is doing.

Also I'm a co-developer of an open-source platform fighter but don't flaunt this around like this matters to anyone.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't care if you/other non-Bowser players think the Bowser KBG change in 1.1.4 was a nerf, the good Bowser players prefer the new one BECAUSE IT IS BETTER omg

Cloud got some nerfs and some buffs, but he shouldn't be getting buffs at all, at least not to moves that are already good like utilt and usmash. By nerfing his good options you are making his other options better!

 

[Derpnaster]

honestly Cloud needs kill options that aren't Limit Break. He really sucks without them since he can die to Gale at 0% much like Mac.

and before anyone gets salty lets go through and see how many kill moves Cloud actually has.

I know of five and three of them are smashes. Pretty much everything else requires really high percents before it becomes viable.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

honestly Cloud needs kill options that aren't Limit Break. He really sucks without them since he can die to Gale at 0% much like Mac.

and before anyone gets salty lets go through and see how many kill moves Cloud actually has.

I know of five and three of them are smashes. Pretty much everything else requires really high percents before it becomes viable.

Besides the LBs?

Usmash, Fsmash, Uair, Dair, Fair. Situationally Dsmash and I believe Bair. Probably Ftilt on the ledge.

There's also nothing particularly wrong with a character having limited kill options. Particularly when they have that kinda of range and frame data. And he still has limit break. Nerfing those options =/= making them non-kill options. Just not making them so insane. They can still kill before his smashes do and all of that, they just don't need to be killing at like 70%. Not with their frame data + invincibility in Side B''s case.

 

[Radical Larry]

Hello, who is the Bowser player here, is it me or is it you

The new one is better because it kills way earlier

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because I really don't think you "get" it.

I don't care if you/other non-Bowser players think the Bowser KBG change in 1.1.4 was a nerf, the good Bowser players prefer the new one BECAUSE IT IS BETTER omg

Ahem, you're now going against the word of another Bowser player.
The U-Throw change was a nerf. No more, no less.

And besides, I would take the second version of U-Throw instead of the third. At least the second variation [the one that dealt less knockback] could kill at death damages.

 

[ZeusLink]

I agree with the fact Cloud shouldn't get any stronger moves. I also think Limit is a bit over-the-top, in terms of kill percent(and speed, maybe?(well, except Finishing Touch)).

 

[Derpnaster]

Guys keep in mind that Link a character considered worse by a wide margin, can kill at those same early percents as Cloud with just his normals, and honestly if you include situational kill moves and spikes Link has only three moves that CAN'T kill. Jab, Zair, Gale

Given that information I feel like Cloud should at the least get an up smash that is a viable kill move before 120%, the same avrage percent when Link's up tilt will kill most Lightweights and even a few midweights.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

At least the second variation [the one that dealt less knockback] could kill at death damages.

Fam the new uthrow has like a 30% kill window

Guys keep in mind that Link a character considered worse by a wide margin, can kill at those same early percents as Cloud with just his normals, and honestly if you include situational kill moves and spikes Link has only three moves that CAN'T kill. Jab, Zair, Gale

Given that information I feel like Cloud should at the least get an up smash that is a viable kill move before 120%, the same avrage percent when Link's up tilt will kill most Lightweights and even a few midweights.

Fam cloud has mobility and Link doesn't

Also usmash kills bowser at 120%, get outta here

 

[Eugene Wang]

Now can we suggest some changes, for a change?

Imported straight from another thread:

Spoiler

* Rapid Jab finisher FAF reduced to frame 36.
* Ftilt damage increased to 10/9.
* Utilt damage increased to 8.
* Dtilt damage increased to 10.
* Dash attack damage increased to 12/8. (Quality of life buffs on an undertuned character are always nice.)
* Fsmash gets a late hit from frames 18-25. It deals 14 damage, has a BKB of 30, a KGB of 90, and a sakurai knockback angle. Clean knockback growth increased to 105. FAF reduced to 60.
* Usmash KBG increased to 96.
* Dsmash KBG increased to 85/88. (This should alleviate the problem of not being able to kill without Helicopter Kick.)
* Nair FAF reduced to 45. Late hit damage increased to 6.
* Pummel sped up.
* Fthrow and Bthrow both buffed so they work as kill throws around 150%. (Stock caps.)
* Shot-put knockback angle reduced to 35, with knockback growth reduced to compensate. (Make it a better ledge trapping projectile. It's the natural go-to for edgeguarding, but its vertical knockback kind of defeats that purpose.)
* Exploding Side Kick grants more horizontal distance.
* Burning Dropkick grants more horizontal distance. (Mii brawler also struggles with recovery.)
* Headache maker loses its helpless properties. Its FAF becomes 59. Landing lag reduced to 30. (Yes, I share that pet peeve of moves that don't grant recovery yet give helplessness.)
* Soaring Axe Kick sped up by a factor of 1.4. Improved vertical distance.
* Piston punch grants more vertical distance. (*Cough* Recovery *Cough*)
* Head-on assault FAF reduced to 50. Hitbox size increased.
* Feint Jump FAF reduced to 80.
* Foot Flurry FAF reduced to 75. The first 3 hits have funneling properties. (All three down special moves are undertuned.)


* Fsmash FAF reduced to frame 52.
* Usmash FAF reduced to frame 52.
* Dsmash FAF reduced to frame 48. (Mii swordfighter needs help killing, and this should help.)
* Dair autocancel frame pushed to frame 40.
* Pummel sped up.
* Fthrow angle reduced to 30. KBG decreased to compensate. (Set up edgeguards.)
* Bthrow KBG increased to make it a kill throw around 160%. (Stock cap.)
* Dthrow KBG reduced so Dthrow -> Uair works at kill percentages. (As much as we like to joke about this mod being Smash 4: hoo-hah edition, we keep doing it for the simple reason that it's a simple way to buff characters.)
* Gale Strike FAF reduced to 70. (It's currently far too laggy to allow for follow-ups.)
* Shuriken of Light damage increased to 4/5.5/7.5/10.5. (Who doesn't want a bit more damage?)
* Blurring Blade last hit KBG increased to 115, deals an extra 10 shield damage. All hits get funneling properties. (Decrease risk, increase reward.)
* Airborne assault doesn't cause helplessness if started from the ground, and leaves swordfighter in tumble 30 frames after hitting the stage or the opponent. (#$!&@%^ moves that cause helplessness, and *$%%$@ moves that are unsafe on hit.)
* Slash Launcher grants more horizontal distance.
* Stone Scabbard can sweetspot the ledge form either direction. (Recovery. Simple as that.)
* Skyward Sword Dash's funnel hitbox is more generous, making it far harder to avoid the later hits.
* Hero's spin grounded FAF reduced to frame 70.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm horrified that you were a moderator at one point.

Hence, he's not anymore

 

[ZeusLink]

Now can we suggest some changes, for a change?

Imported straight from another thread:

Spoiler

* Rapid Jab finisher FAF reduced to frame 36.
* Ftilt damage increased to 10/9.
* Utilt damage increased to 8.
* Dtilt damage increased to 10.
* Dash attack damage increased to 12/8. (Quality of life buffs on an undertuned character are always nice.)
* Fsmash gets a late hit from frames 18-25. It deals 14 damage, has a BKB of 30, a KGB of 90, and a sakurai knockback angle. Clean knockback growth increased to 105. FAF reduced to 60.
* Usmash KBG increased to 96.
* Dsmash KBG increased to 85/88. (This should alleviate the problem of not being able to kill without Helicopter Kick.)
* Nair FAF reduced to 45. Late hit damage increased to 6.
* Pummel sped up.
* Fthrow and Bthrow both buffed so they work as kill throws around 150%. (Stock caps.)
* Shot-put knockback angle reduced to 35, with knockback growth reduced to compensate. (Make it a better ledge trapping projectile. It's the natural go-to for edgeguarding, but its vertical knockback kind of defeats that purpose.)
* Exploding Side Kick grants more horizontal distance.
* Burning Dropkick grants more horizontal distance. (Mii brawler also struggles with recovery.)
* Headache maker loses its helpless properties. Its FAF becomes 59. Landing lag reduced to 30. (Yes, I share that pet peeve of moves that don't grant recovery yet give helplessness.)
* Soaring Axe Kick sped up by a factor of 1.4. Improved vertical distance.
* Piston punch grants more vertical distance. (*Cough* Recovery *Cough*)
* Head-on assault FAF reduced to 50. Hitbox size increased.
* Feint Jump FAF reduced to 80.
* Foot Flurry FAF reduced to 75. The first 3 hits have funneling properties. (All three down special moves are undertuned.)


* Fsmash FAF reduced to frame 52.
* Usmash FAF reduced to frame 52.
* Dsmash FAF reduced to frame 48. (Mii swordfighter needs help killing, and this should help.)
* Dair autocancel frame pushed to frame 40.
* Pummel sped up.
* Fthrow angle reduced to 30. KBG decreased to compensate. (Set up edgeguards.)
* Bthrow KBG increased to make it a kill throw around 160%. (Stock cap.)
* Dthrow KBG reduced so Dthrow -> Uair works at kill percentages. (As much as we like to joke about this mod being Smash 4: hoo-hah edition, we keep doing it for the simple reason that it's a simple way to buff characters.)
* Gale Strike FAF reduced to 70. (It's currently far too laggy to allow for follow-ups.)
* Shuriken of Light damage increased to 4/5.5/7.5/10.5. (Who doesn't want a bit more damage?)
* Blurring Blade last hit KBG increased to 115, deals an extra 10 shield damage. All hits get funneling properties. (Decrease risk, increase reward.)
* Airborne assault doesn't cause helplessness if started from the ground, and leaves swordfighter in tumble 30 frames after hitting the stage or the opponent. (#$!&@%^ moves that cause helplessness, and *$%%$@ moves that are unsafe on hit.)
* Slash Launcher grants more horizontal distance.
* Stone Scabbard can sweetspot the ledge form either direction. (Recovery. Simple as that.)
* Skyward Sword Dash's funnel hitbox is more generous, making it far harder to avoid the later hits.
* Hero's spin grounded FAF reduced to frame 70.

I'm loving the Swordfighter suggestions.

 

[ElectroLightning]

I don't care if you/other non-Bowser players think the Bowser KBG change in 1.1.4 was a nerf, the good Bowser players prefer the new one BECAUSE IT IS BETTER omg

Cloud got some nerfs and some buffs, but he shouldn't be getting buffs at all, at least not to moves that are already good like utilt and usmash. By nerfing his good options you are making his other options better!

Just stop. You aren't being very helpful here...

 

[ZeusLink]

I don't care if you/other non-Bowser players think the Bowser KBG change in 1.1.4 was a nerf, the good Bowser players prefer the new one BECAUSE IT IS BETTER omg

Cloud got some nerfs and some buffs, but he shouldn't be getting buffs at all, at least not to moves that are already good like utilt and usmash. By nerfing his good options you are making his other options better!

Git gud plz.

 

[Deleted member]

They should be getting zero buffs and quite a noticeable number of nerfs without compensation for them.

We should focus on giving lower tier characters buffs while leaving the top characters alone. Diddy, as he currently is, is not overpowering. Just because he's annoying doesn't mean he needs to be nerfed.

Hello, who is the Bowser player here, is it me or is it you

The new one is better because it kills way earlier

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because I really don't think you "get" it.

This will be the last time I respond to your nonsense.

I don't care who you are (or rather, who you think you are.) Your posts are not only not helpful, they are also incredibly immature and condescending. You clearly have no interest in improving this mod, so why don't you find something better to do with your time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If the goal is to get everyone as close to being on an even playing field as possible, you're going to have to nerf the ones at the top. Getting everyone up to Diddy or Cloud level isn't feasible. Aim for small nerfs to be sure, but they should still have them. Otherwise at best you're going to have the same top 3-5 be the top 3-5 and be the characters everyone focuses on despite the work done on the patch. MUs will be closer and all of that yes but they'll still stand out on top unless you overshot with another character's changes. Because the gap between the top 3-5 and OP is pretty darn small.

I am talking about things like knocking off 1% or 0.5% off of a few moves, lowering the KBB and KBG by a few points, lowering speed attributes by fractional amounts or the weight by 2 points. Just tiny little adjustments to 1) shave off a bit of difference between the gaps of the current best of the best and the rest even before looking at other characters' buffs 2) maybe encourage the use of some other moves a little bit more. More variety, not only in character selection but in move use within individual characters, is healthy. And because these characters are already so good giving them buffs isn't feasible. Thus, light taps of the nerf hammer. I mean really, Rosalina isn't going to fall off of the charts if her Uair is killing 5% later and she's dying 2% sooner.

It uh.. also still doesn't explain the buffs I'm afraid. Particularly the Diddy one, at least with Cloud you can argue he has a few nerfs thrown in there. You gave Diddy another kill confirm, which he was far from lacking in, in a way that everyone had PTSD about. Even if its weaker than before its just... not a good idea and gives people a very bad first impression of the fan patch. I mean its literally the first thing they see: Diddy Kong getting his Hoo Haa back, no nerfs right at the top of the list. Even if you didn't like how Kurogane went about voicing his opinion, its an opinion a lot of people are going to have.

 

[RedMarf78]

Why were we even talking about Cloud? He's already a top tier and should be left as is (unless you're adding a bit of lag to limit cross slash). Anyway...

Spoiler: LUCAS BUFFS

• Down Tilt:
  • Damage: 4 -> 5
  • Ground Only Hitbox Angle: 0 -> 42
  • Ground Only Hitbox BKB: 8 -> 10
    
  • Ground Only Hitbox KBK: 40 -> 45
• Up Smash
  • Launcher Hitboxes edited to hit ledge hanging opponents
  • All Hitboxes KBG: 77 -> 80
  • Earliest Hitbox Damage: 19 -> 20
  • Earliest Hitbox BKB: 48 -> 50
    
  • Early Hitbox BKB: 42 -> 44
  • On Time Hitbox? BKB: 37 -> 39
  • Late Hitbox BKB: 32 -> 34
  • Latest Hitbox BKB: 27 -> 29

This is one of (probably THE) slowest smash attack in the game with 99 FAF and 27 frames of start up. If the move whiffs the opponent literally has like 70 frames to punish and even with all that lag it's not currently the strongest up-smash in the game. The earliest hitbox of Lucas' up smash is on par with the sourpot of Ganon's up smash and the sweetspot completely outclasses it. not to mention that Ganon's up smash is unpunishable. That's just not OK.

PS: Why does Lucas' up smash have to have so many hitboxes? I don't know what I'm supposed to call them all.

• Fair
  • Autocancel: Frame >38 -> Frame >30
  • Sweetspot Hitbox enlargened: (5u -> 5.5u?)
    • not sure if smash wiki counts as a reliable source for hitbox sizes
  • Sweetspot Damage: 11.5 -> 12
• Nair
  • Autocancel: Frame >37 -> >35
  • SDI Mulitplier: 2x -> 1x

Explanation here is simple; Lucas needs a neutral that's better than some subpar zoning that any fast character can break through. Fair hitbox buff is mainly because for some reason Ness gets to hitve moves with better hitboxes and power. Having one move with range comparable to Ness' would be nice.

• Up Air:
  • FIX THE HTIBOX TO MATCH THE ANIMATION, PLEASE
• PK Fire:
  • Hitbox Active: 21-37 -> 17-33
  • FAF: 53 -> 49
• PSI Magnet:
  • Hitbox Active: 17 -> 12
  • FAF: 36 -> 31

To make PSI magnet more useful offensively and to make PK Fire just a little bit better. Like I said before, fast characters currently give Lucas a lot of trouble. They're hard to grab and Lucas' grab combo's are one of his greatest strengths. Even more importantly thought is that they're speed lets them punish PK Fire: Lucas' most important zoning tool. Mitigating this fact would help Lucas a lot. (This is true for most other projectile characters as well; )

 

[Derpnaster]

So I have a couple of questions.

1:Why expand Up Smash in such a way as to let it hit not just below Lucas, but below and out of him? Currently no up smash that I know of, keep in mind I have not done uber research on the entire game, hits below ledge, they generally hit above and slightly out to the sides of a character, in that regard Lucas is fine, his Up Smash is pretty freaking big.

If you want to make it better against faster characters, which is what you seem to think would be best, why not just move the FAF to an earlier point while still keeping the massive sweetspots and damage the same? Honestly if anything that move just needs less cooldown and it's golden.

2: Why not just alter Lucas' tether grab? it's already pretty fast for a tether and , well it's a freaking tether, maybe a couple of frames off but not much really, Lucas feels about where he should be without jacking up all his knockback and damage.

 

[ZeusLink]

Lucas' up smash is slower than Wii Fits up smash but weaker than it at the same time. I don't think Lucas' up smash is THE slowest in the game, to be honest, but in FAF, yes, it could. It would probably be Dedede's side smash in start-up or something incredibly strong.