Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Radical Larry]

Fine...Link's air speed.

 

[OwntheLoner]

I feel that Lucario needs faster startup and cool down on all of his smashes. Also, mabye his up throw and Dthrow could be changed so he can follow up later.
On top of that, he needs to have higher starting damage but the ceiling on his aura should remain the same.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf needs to be slow to balance out his raw power. Giving him flinch resistance against weaker attacks could probably help him against the faster fighters who are lacking in power.

Of course, we've seen how Bowser can be unusually fast once he starts dashing around.

 

[Radical Larry]

I still say Ganondorf's F-Smash Max Charge and Wizard's Foot Aerial should break shields.

 

[Deleted member]

And assuming this patch isn't setting out to completely change character weaknesses... Ganondorf is supposed to not be able to keep up with faster characters. Speed boosts would have to be very minor if any and again, not combined with any type of worthwhile armour. What he does in his game series is 100% irrelevant.

I'm not saying he needs to literally keep up with them. I'm talking about a walk speed of about 0.85, a run speed of 1.35 (still slower than current DDD), and an air speed of 0.85. I would also shave a frame or two off his jumpsquat.

He's still going to be one of the slowest characters in the game (I also want to give minor speed buffs to a few of the other slowest characters such as Zelda), he'll just feel more fluid and have less trouble following up. Right now, trying to control him feels like moving through molasses.

I do agree that giving parts of his limbs intangibility during a few of his attacks would probably be a better solution than armor (except on Dark Dive, which I think could use its Brawl armor.)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not the jump squat. That's a much larger change than the movement speed ones even. Those should be handed out really sparingly. Unless there's like a universal change that lowers the range of jump squat timings.

If you up his speed AND give him armour of some kind, I think you'd have to down his strength a bit. As is while he's painfully slow, he can legitimately kill you in 2-3 reads. Adding more speed increases this ability, even small adjustments. Hence why I'm really reluctant to agree to that idea. I don't want to see what he could do if he could string things along farther or punish smaller mistakes. I'd rather give him intangibility so he can more safely go for the punish and not get stuffed out of it as often. So less punish opportunities on his end, but more constancy within those punish opportunities.

What was Dark Dive's armour in Brawl again?

Also another attack I think would be good to have intangibility on part of his limb: Usmash. Makes it a pretty amazing anti-air, but still beatable and all. This brings the list to Uair, Nair, Dtilt, and Usmash. Also known as a juggling/approaching tool, a spacing tool (and combo tool I thiiiink if he cancels after the first hit?), his best ground poke, and an anti-air/heavy punish. Seems like a good set to me. Make the intangibility from the knee down on the attacking legs.

 

[Eugene Wang]

While we're talking Ganondorf, I'll deliver my own suggestions. Give up tilt stronger vacuum properties and lower startup, extend his grab range (preferrably to almost absurd distances), and make wizkick and flame choke go farther. The idea here is to make Ganondorf more threatening from range.

 

[Deleted member]

Not the jump squat. That's a much larger change than the movement speed ones even. Those should be handed out really sparingly. Unless there's like a universal change that lowers the range of jump squat timings.

Why do you think it would be such a bad thing to give him a jumpsquat on par with many other characters? Even reducing it by one frame to frame 6 (the same as DK and DDD) could help make him feel slightly more fluid when transitioning into the air.

I think you're forgetting just how sloooow Ganondorf is and how detrimental that is to his viability. If our goal is to make him viable rather than just slightly less awful, he is going to need some extra mobility.

What was Dark Dive's armour in Brawl again?

It had grab armor, so he could still grab the opponent even if he traded with their attack.

Also regarding Dark Dive, I would also like to see it deal a bit more damage on the grab (15%), as well as the uppercut (12%) since it's hard to hit with and therefore should offer more reward for doing so. If the uppercut becomes too powerful, lower the KB since I would rather it deal more damage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Grab armour would probably be fine during the actual grabbing portion of the attack.

Changing frame squats does more than change ground to air transition. It also lowers the number of things safe on a character's shield. And while Ganondorf doesn't have something like a frame 3 Nair to make lowering his jump squat AS scary... we are also talking about improving his Uair there. And of course also changes ground to air combos and throw to air combos.

idk might be one of those things you have to physically test to see if its still balanced or not. One frame on Ganondorf might not be bad, but just in general its a thing you should tread lightly with I feel. Though shorting the range from 4-7 to 4-6 for jump squats might not be bad as a universal change.

 

[RedMarf78]

I don't really see how improving ganon's mobility (to a sensible degree of course) could possibly be a problem. Bowser is faster much faster than him on the ground and can kill off of 3 grabs and he's still not top tier. The worst that could really happen is that he gets better/more consistent down throw followups. Which wouldn't really be bad; this is Ganon were talking about, he needs the help. In terms of raw power Ganon is pretty much the strongest heavy weight but this ends up not being enough to outweigh the fact that he's the slowest of them all, the lightest of them all and has the worst recovery (at least bowser's has an active hitbox).

 

[Radical Larry]

Yeah, that's the thing, Donkey Kong and Bowser both have almost the same damage output as Ganondorf, and they are still very fast. And then you have Charizard, who's also very fast and deals a substantial degree of damage. So what's wrong with Ganondorf being respectful to his in-game series and making him substantially faster? It's apparent that speed doesn't make a Super Heavyweight broken, it just makes them able to keep up.

Ganondorf still has his laggy attacks, Ganondorf still has his large body that is easy to hit and still, his gravity and aerial speed is basically untouched, and he would still have a tougher time to get back down to the stage.

Donkey Kong has a running speed of 1.7031 and an aerial speed of 1.15. He's not even considered high tier.
Bowser has a running speed of 1.792 and an aerial speed of 1. He's also not considered high tier.
Charizard has a running speed of 2 and an aerial speed of 0.92. He's considered a low tier or bottom tier.

So let me ask, is it even remotely bad to make Ganondorf about as fast as them when it's not going to make him overpowering?
So how about we give Ganondorf:

A running speed of 1.692 and an aerial speed of 0.98. We can certainly see how this would necessarily affect Ganondorf's placement in this fan patch. It could be a drastic change, but considering that the other super heavyweights are not high tier...

You can kind of see how Ganondorf having a drastically faster speed will make him balanced if anything else is untouched.

 

[Frihetsanka]

With a running speed of 1.692 Ganondorf would go from the 56th fastest to the 24th fastest. His dash would be slightly slower than Wii Fit Trainer's and slightly faster than Pit's. I wonder if that's a bit much for him? Then again, he is currently bottom tier, so he deserves some pretty big buffs, and buffing his speed is probably not going to make him stronger than, say, Cloud or Diddy Kong (or Meta Knight or Ness, though he'd run faster than Ness).

I, personally, would like to see his grab buffed. Maybe an extra frame of range (the current range is so low), and maybe reduce some of the startup-lag and/or ending lag. Though I'm no Ganondorf main so take my advice on him with a grain of salt (although I do like to play him in casuals).

 

[Radical Larry]

But remember Frihetsanka that Bowser, Donkey Kong and Charizard are still faster than Ganondorf, and they aren't like high tiers or top tiers due to other things that hold them back. Ganondorf getting a speed buff would help him become a middle tier to an upper middle, probably nothing more.

 

[Minik]

There's also the fact Ganondorf has no projectiles, Robin is super slow but doesn't need to approach to attack. Ganondorf being slow means he slowly has to run up to attack.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It should be easy enough to make the changes and try them if you know how to edit the files and how to check who is who. I unfortunately don't know how to do that, but maybe someone else here does? Anyone feeling like uploading the proposed changes for Ganondorf for testing (dash-buffs and airspeed buffs)? It would be useful anyway to see if the extra speed opens up new combos that make him broken.

 

[Derpnaster]

Late as usual but I would like to ask for a few frames (Like 5 or so) of intangibility on Greninja's SS, however if that isn't possible could you make it come out faster? The reasoning is that right now SS is really only a tool for hard reads, recovery and occasionally SSHC. Having it come out faster would make it a more viable dodge option or counter attack in light of Greninja's actual counter being just bad. Though I don't think it needs changes because it has a freaking spike that reminds most of us of old melee spikes (falco killing himself included).

Secondly I feel like Link doesn't need more mobility, as that breaks the concept of Link being a more punish heavy character who exploits weak points, but shaving a general two or three frames off his tilts and specials startup would I feel facilitate both the concept of the character and improve his combat viability because Link already hits like a semi truck.
Also his grab, please give Link a longer grab, the idea is to make Link more of a threat to spacing, in that just throwing out moves at a range you think is safe is not, however because it still keeps the same frame data grab is itself not safe making it a more potent reading tool.

 

[RedMarf78]

SUGGESTED GANON BUFFS

Spoiler: General

Dash Speed 1.218 ---> 1.35
Air Speed 0.79---> 0.84
Double Jump height slightly increased

Spoiler: Jab

Frame 7-8 ---> Frame 4-5
hand and arm hitboxes standardized to ---> 9% damage / 30 BKB / KBG 90
IASA frame 29 ---> 23
This gives Ganon that singular fast burst option that he needs and improves his pressure game a bit (he currently has no ground moves faster than frame 10)

Spoiler: Dair

Autocancel Frames >32 ---> >31
damage 19% ---> 22%
BKB 10 ---> 30
Autocancel dair would greatly improve Ganon's punish game and give him access to new low percent combos (as dair can't be teched). The knockback buffs are actually kind of unnecessary, but Ganon needs all he can get right now so...

Spoiler: Bair

All hitboxes moved downwards a few units
Late Hitbox Added (frames 12-15) =
damage 10%
BKB 20
KBG 89
These changes would improve Ganon's neutral by essentially making short hop back air a lot easier to hit with. Right now its hard to hit with a clean autocancel back unless you're facing a VERY tall opponent. lover hitboxes would make the move easier to hit on characters of average height and the late hitboxes would cover the extremely short character like kirby)

Spoiler: Nair

Landing Lag 17 frames ---> 13 frames
Hitboxes of 2nd kick moved downwards a few units
Again, to improve Ganon's neutral by making spaced SHFF nair relatively safe on shield and by making nair not whiff on shorter character.

Spoiler: Grab

slightly larger grab boxes (I don't know how to get hitbox sizes etc.)
standing grab FAF 36 frames ---> 34 frames
dash grab FAF 45 ---> 42
pivot grab FAF 42 ---> 40
Ganon's grab frame data now matches charizard's. The character still would'net have a very good grab but it would certainly be better.

Spoiler: Down Throw

endlag decreased by like 3 frames
KBG 50 ---> 65
Ganon's movement buffs along with this endlag decrease would let Ganon have better downthrow combos regardless of DI. Higher KBG to prevent any ridiculous kill combos at higher percents.

Spoiler: Back Throw

KBG 130 ---> 150
A good kill throw would really benefit Ganon and he deserves it considering his lackluster grab. If his backthrow has about 150 KBG it should kill a few percent earlier than bowser's back throw

(I can't actually test this though; I test when in game moves that hit at the same angle of whatever move I want to change kill. Then I put that move into a a knockback calculator and see how much knockback the move does at the kill percent. Finally I choose what persent I want the move I'm changing to kill at, put the move and the choosen percent into the knockback calculator and then fine the the damage/ KBG/ BKB until the move I'm changing deals the same knockback as the kill move I used as a base.)

Spoiler: Flame Choke (Side B)

Grab armor added to grabboxes
　 Flame Choke is now untechable
These changes would make Flame Choke a much more reliable way of techchasing and dealing damage. I'm not worried about the grab armor being to powerful as the move already has awful endlag but I do want feedback on if the untechable bit would make flame choke to down tilt too strong an option on some characters.

Spoiler: Wizard's Foot (Down B)

-Can now restore double jump three times when used mid-air
To buff Ganon's recovery while not making it so that moves that hit at a more vertical angle are incapable of edgeguarding him. (cause he'd just keep on using wizard's foot to recover and the opponent would have to edge guard till like 150% when Ganon would die off the side or top since he's fat and all)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I can tell you Flame Choke being untechable is most likely a no go because in that case, any MU where the enemy can spawn an item turns into a potential 0-Death after one Flame Choke.

 

[Xinc]

tbh I have a lot of ideas for Ganon and I'd be happy to playtest stuff for you too.

(I'll post stuff later, since I posted it before and have to find it)

 

[Derpnaster]

I do have to say, I'm not sure how I feel about Ganon's jab being faster than Link's for almost as much total damage in one hit. I'd say a startup of 6 frames is good, most jobs are around that or slightly faster, and honestly Gannon already has a pretty good jab default.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[RedMarf78]

meh, to be fair Link's jab can lead into smashes at higher percents and he has projectiles so if anything Ganon is deserving of the better jab. That said, I don't think Link has that great of a jab anyway so its not saying much if a character has a better jab than him (to me at least).

I can tell you Flame Choke being untechable is most likely a no go because in that case, any MU where the enemy can spawn an item turns into a potential 0-Death after one Flame Choke.

Can you expand on this? I honestly can't figure out why a character having an item instantly gives a Ganon a zero to death.

 

[Derpnaster]

It's all a matter of application I guess, with Link his jab is one of his few moves that can't kill. But it can be a great spacing tool.

With gannon I see his jab as less of a combo tool and more of a "get off me" move, so Now that I think about it a faster jab could work. Though I still stand by six frames over four or five, you're looking at fox speeds with that kind of jab.

 

[Radical Larry]

As I said on the Ganondorf discord chat as a joke:

Let's make his jab essentially a machine gun.

 

[Frihetsanka]

snip

Most of those changes look pretty good to me (though I could be overlooking something). I'm not sure about the Flame Choke and Wizard's Foot changes, however. The Flame Choke changes might be annoying to adapt to (then again, people eventually learn). More importantly, I don't think it's even possible to change that with mods right now, is it? Same with Wizard's Foot, is it even doable?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Can you expand on this? I honestly can't figure out why a character having an item instantly gives a Ganon a zero to death.

Back in Brawl where Flame Choke was that way, Ganondorf could Z-Drop an item onto somebody after a Flame Choke, force a get up while catching the item, and then Flame Choke them again. Repeat until you kill them.

 

[Eugene Wang]

I don't see the problem. That situation will appear in competitve play only if someone is careless enough to hand Ganondorf a damaging item. Or doubles, but we already know of lots of ways 2v1 is janky.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't see the problem. That situation will appear in competitve play only if someone is careless enough to hand Ganondorf a damaging item. Or doubles, but we already know of lots of ways 2v1 is janky.

I doubt this mod is going to see much use in competitive play anyway. Having a pretty much (right?) guaranteed side-B to down-tilt might be a bit too strong though, and it might feel strange to play against if you're used to being able to tech it.

 

[Game&Watcher]

#GiveGanonToughGuy

 

[WinterShorts]

Needed buffs for a fanmade next patch? I could see Falco dair speed increases and finally buffing the Puff.

I might sound a tad bit biased but should Yoshi get any buffs? Like, very slight buffs?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't see the problem. That situation will appear in competitve play only if someone is careless enough to hand Ganondorf a damaging item. Or doubles, but we already know of lots of ways 2v1 is janky.

It pretty much shuts down huge portions of MegaMan and ROB's gameplans. And not in a good way, but in a cheesy way. Cheese isn't good.

 

[Derpnaster]

It also makes it bad for Link and TLink though to a lesser extent.But gannon Bomb Combos are already pretty nuts, once more, doubles are jank.

 

[Deleted member]

I was told by a Moderator I should post this here, so here goes...

I've been reading around the Sm4sh Forums here, and people want to create their own balance patch, and I'm here with the skills to implement most of these changes!

Ever since I've started playing Sm4sh and seeing the tier list, I've been wanting to make a balance overhaul to the majority of the cast. I would also like to eventually fix/remove/adjust various things that are jank about Sm4sh (Ex: Rage, Footstooling, Glitches, etc) when the tools are available.

My goal is to make every character viable in at least one way or another with no character being too bad to even bother with (Ex: Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc) or too broken to even bother with (i.e. Bayonetta) (Bayonetta's been heavily nerfed in Patch 1.1.6, so this part is redundant). Lower tier characters will be subject to various buffs, while higher tier characters will be left alone for the most part (unless an official patch overnerfed something and/or if something about them is broken).

The best I can do right now if Frame data, Attribute, and Hitbox edits, so Floating Point-related things (Ex: Witch Time, Counter damage multipliers, etc) cannot be changed at this current time until they're properly identified.

Download (New): https://www.dropbox.com/s/mdo57fc8qlhuwkr/Patch 1.1.7 - The Fan Patch.zip?dl=0

Feel free to give your own thoughts and suggestions. Suggestions from dedicated character mains are highly encouraged. What I need the most right now is a sense of direction and criticism for my current edits.

Credits:
-SilentDo0m. Suggested edits for Charizard, Roy, Shulk, Little Mac, and Mewtwo.
-Marioking64DS. Suggested edits for Wario.
-DarkLordRS. Suggested edits for Mii Gunner.
-Palutena and Dedede Boards (SmashBoards). Ideas taken from discussion threads.
-Zikkh Suggested edits for King Dedede.
-Kienamaru. Suggested edits for Zelda.
-Yoshister. Suggested edits for Dr. Mario.

You can see the current changes in the spoiler below.

Update (May 20th, 2016): Zelda changes have been added!

Update (May 21st, 2016): Minor edits to Little Mac's Rapid Jab.

Update (May 23rd, 2016): Dr. Mario changes have been added!

Spoiler

Diddy Kong

Spoiler

• Up Air:
  • Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Angle: 76 -> 75
  • BKB: 64 -> 54
  • KBG: 89 -> 99
• Down Throw:
  • Angle: 106 -> 105
  • KBG: 59 -> 40

Roy

Spoiler

• Walk Max Velocity: 1.1.5 -> 1.2
• Initial Dash Velocity: 1.4 -> 1.5
• Air Acceleration: 0.03 -> 0.05
• Jump V Initial Velocity: 30.97 -> 33.97
• Hop V Initial Velocity: 13 -> 15
• Jab:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 5 - 8 -> Frame 4 - 8
  • Sourspot Angle: 38 -> 70
• Dash Attack:
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 140
  • Sourspot BKB: 60 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 50 -> Frame 42
• Side Tilt:
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 20
  • Middle Hit Damage: 9 -> 10
• Up Tilt:
  • FAF: Frame 39 -> Frame 36
• Down Tilt:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 7 - 9 -> Frame 6 - 9
  • Sourspot Angle: 30 -> 80
  • Sourspot BKB: 40 -> 80
  • Sourspot KBG: 40 -> 60
• Side Smash:
  • Sourspot KBG: 70 -> 100
• Forward Air:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 7
  • Sweetspot Damage: 11 -> 11.5
  • Autocancel: Frame >36 -> Frame >28
• Back Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 12 -> 13.5
  • Autocancel: Frame >32 -> Frame >30
• Up Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 9 -> 11
  • Sourspot Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Sourspot BKB: 10 -> 50
  • Sourspot KBG: 70 -> 55
• Down Air:
  • Sourspot Angle: 80 -> 361
  • Autocancel: Frame >55 -> Frame >44
  • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 48
• Back Throw:
  • Damage: 5 -> 7
  • Angle: 117 -> 150
  • BKB: 70 -> 60
  • KBG: 45 -> 75
• Dancing Blade 1
  • Angle, BKB, and KBG values edited to match Marth's.
  • Sweetspot Damage: 3 -> 4
  • Sourspot Damage: 2 -> 3
• Dancing Blade 2 and Dancing Blade 3:
  • Damage of all hits increased by 1.
  • BKB of all hits changed to 50
  • KBG of all hits changed to 30
• Dancing Blade 4 (Angled up and side)
  • Damage of all hits increased by 1
• Dancing Blade 4 (Angled down):
  • Multihit BKB: 2 -> 10
  • Damage of ending hit increased by 1
• Blazer:
  • Aerial Damage, BKB, WKB, and KBG values edited to match the ground variant.

Mewtwo

Spoiler

• Jab:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 9
• Rapid Jab:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • Damage: 1 -> 1.2
  • BKB: 14 -> 20
  • KBG: 30 -> 35
• Rapid Jab Finisher:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 9
  • Damage: 2 -> 4
  • KBG: 100 -> 120
• Side Tilt:
  • Damage: 10/9/8 -> 11/10/9
  • BKB: 20 -> 32
  • FAF: Frame 36 -> Frame 32
• Side Smash:
  • Sweetspot BKB: 21 -> 30
  • Sweetspot KBG: 85 -> 95
  • Sourspot KBG: 90 -> 100
• Standing Grab/Running Grab/Pivot Grab
  • Grab Collisions increased by 0.5 units.
• Teleport:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7

Charizard

Spoiler

• Initial Dash Velocity: 1 -> 1.5
• Ground Traction: 0.04 -> 0.05
• JumpSquat: 6 Frames -> 5 Frames
• Jump V Initial Velocity: 32 -> 35
• Hop V Initial Velocity: 15.43 -> 16.5
• Air Speed: 0.92 -> 1
• Air Acceleration: 0.05 -> 0.065
• Side Tilt
  • Sweetspot Damage: 11 -> 12
  • Sourspot Damage: 7 -> 9
  • Sourspot KBG: 100 -> 95
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 8
  • Lingering Hitbox added to Frames 14 - 21. Damage: 6, Angle: 96, BKB: 40, KBG: 130, Effect: Slash
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7
  • FAF: Frame 31 -> Frame 27
• Side Smash:
  • Sourspot reworked into a Sweetspot.
  • Sourspot Damage: 14 -> 20
  • Sourspot BKB: 60 -> 50
  • Sourspot KBG: 94 -> 84
  • Sourspor Effect: Normal -> Fire
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox on Frame 6 edited to hit both grounded and aerial foes.
  • Second Hitbox added on Frame around Charizard's torso with similar hitbox values as the first hitbox.
  • Second Hit hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units
• Neutral Air:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 9 - 26 -> Frame 5 - 29
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 16 Frames
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • FAF: Frame 60 -> Frame 50
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 37
• Back Air:
  • Sourspot Damage: 11 -> 14
• Up Air:
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 9
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 16 -> Frame 10 - 16
  • Autocancel: Frame >38 -> Frame >34
  • FAF: Frame 46 -> Frame 40
• Down Air
  • Landing Lag: 33 Frames -> 28 Frames
• Up Throw
  • FAF added to Frame 74
• Down Throw
  • Multihit Hitlag: 1 -> 0.2
  • FAF added to Frame 70
• Flare Blitz:
  • Detection Hitbox no longer clanks.
  • Detection Hitbox Damage: 4 -> 5
  • Explosion Damage: 15 -> 16
  • Explosion BKB: 70 -> 65
  • Explosion KBG: 84 -> 90
• Fly
  • All hitbox sizes (except final hit) increased by 0.5 units.
  • Final hit hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
  • All hitboxes moved backward by 3 units
  • Multihit Angle: 72/90/90 -> 366/90/90

Wario

Spoiler

• Side Smash:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 18 - 20 -> Frame 18 -> 21
  • BKB: 20 -> 30
  • Endlag reduced by 20%

Bowser

Spoiler

• Up Throw:
  • Throw KBG: 180 -> 155

Shulk

Spoiler

• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 4
  • Hitboxes lowered and increased in size by 0.5 units.
  • Damage: 3 -> 3.5
  • FAF: Frame 26 -> Frame 23
• Jab 2:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 4
  • WKB: 52 -> 42
  • FAF: Frame 34 -> Frame 28
• Jab 3:
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 8
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 15 -> Frame 11 - 15. (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • Sweetspot Damage: 5.3 -> 4.3
  • Sourspot edited to match sweetspot.
• Dash Attack:
  • Startup: Frame 15 -> Frame 10
  • Angle: 60 -> 40
  • FAF: 53 -> 48
• Side Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 9
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 14 -> Frame 10 -> 14 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • FAF: 44 -> 40
• Up Tilt:
  • FAF: Frame 40 -> Frame 38
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 7
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 10 - 12 -> Frame 9 - 12 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • FAF: Frame 34 -> Frame 31
• Side Smash:
  • Hit 1 no longer clanks.
  • Hit 1 hitboxes extended by 2 units and increased in size by 0.25 units.
  • Hit 1 (Angled Down) Angle: 78/10/40 -> 68/10/30
  • Hit 2 hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 23 - 24 -> Frame 23 -> 26
  • Hit 2 (No Angle and Angled Down) KBG: 115 -> 125
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox 0 of Hit 1 KBG: 40 -> 100
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 60
• Neutral Air
  • Startup: Frame 13 -> Frame 10
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 13 - 31 -> Frame 13 -> Frame 34
  • Autocancel: Frame >80 -> Frame >57
  • FAF: Frame 71 -> Frame 66
• Forward Air:
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 11
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 18 -> Frame 14 - 20
  • Damage: 8/6.5 -> 9.5/8
  • KBG: 100 -> 90
  • Autocancel: Frame >57 -> Frame >45
• Back Air:
  • Startup: Frame 18 -> Frame 16
  • Tipper hitbox size increased by 0.5 units
  • Autocancel: Frame >79 -> Frame >48
• Up Air:
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 11
  • Hit 1 Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 -15 -> Frame 14 - 17
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 24 - 25 -> Frame 19 - 20
  • Hit 2 Sourspot Damage: 8 -> 9
  • Hit 2 Sourspot KBG: 100 -> 86
  • Lingering Hitbox added to Frames 21 - 30. Damage: 6, Angle: 88, BKB: 35, KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Autocancel: Frame >79 -> Frame >48
• Down Air
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 12
  • Hit 1 edited to hit both grounded and aerial foes.
  • Hit 1 Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 15 -> Frame 14 - 17
  • Hit 1 Damage: 7.5 -> 6
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 23 - 24 -> Frame 19 - 20
  • Hit 2 Hitbox 0: BKB: 10 -> 20
  • Hit 2 Hitbox 1: BKB: 10 -> 40
  • Lingering Hitbox Added to Frames 21 - 32. Damage: 6, Angle: 85, BKB: 20, KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Autocancel: Frame >78 -> Frame >52
• Back Slash:
  • Damage: 10/9/16/14 -> 12/12/20/20
  • KBG: 100 -> 96
• Back Slash Landing:
  • Damage: 10/9/15/14 -> 12/12/20/20
  • KBG: 100 -> 96
• Air Slash:
  • Hit 1 Ledge Grab: Frame >40 -> Frame >37
  • Hit 1 (Frames 10 - 12) WKB: 140/135/100 -> 135/130/125
  • Hit 1 (Frame 12 - 14) WKB: 78/80 -> 80/70
  • Hit 1 additional hitboxes added to Frames 14 - 16: Damage: 5, Angle: 86/52, WKB: 62/58. KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Hit 2 Damage: 5.5 -> 7
  • Hit 2 BKB: 35 -> 45
  • Hit 2 KBG: 170 -> 145
• Vision:
  • Forward Counter Attack KBG: 94 -> 80
  • Standard Counter Attack KBG: 84 -> 70
  • Aerial Counter Attack Intangibility: Frames 9 - 44 -> Frames 1 - 45

Mii Gunner

Spoiler

• Run Initial Velocity: 1.3 -> 1.4
• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3
• Jab 2:
  • Jab 3 Window: Frame 13 -> Frame 11
• Jab 3:
  • Startup: Frame 7 -> Frame 5
  • Hit 1 hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
• Dash Attack:
  • BKB: 80 -> 70
  • KBG: 70 -> 80
• Side Tilt:
  • Damage: 9/7.5/6 -> 10/8.5/7
  • Hitbox added to Frames 16 - 18: Damage: 5.5, Angle: 361, BKB: 30, KBG: 100, Effect: Normal
• Up Tilt:
  • Hitbox 0 BKB: 50 -> 40
  • Hitbox 0 KBG: 100 -> 110
  • Hitbox 1 BKB: 50 -> 40
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 38 -> Frame 30
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 6
  • BKB: 80 -> 60
  • KB: 60 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 41 -> Frame 38
• Side Smash:
  • Startup: Frame 17 -> Frame 15
  • Multhit hitbox 0 extended by 2 units.
  • Multihit edited to hit downed foes.
  • Multihit Damage: 0.8 -> 1
  • Multihit Rehit Rate: 4 Frames -> 3 Frames
  • Ending Hit KBG: 193 -> 200
• Up Smash:
  • Hit 5 KBG: 150 -> 165
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 6
  • Autocancel: Frame >35 -> Frame >30
• Forward Air:
  • Horizontal Momentum: -1 -> -0.5
  • Autocancel: Frame 47 -> Frame 27
  • FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 46
• Back Air:
  • Landing Lag: 18 Frames -> 15 Frames
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
  • Hitbox 0: BKB: 30 -> 42
• Up Air
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • End Hit KBG: 170 -> 180
  • Hitbox added to the first 2 Frames of Landing: Damage: 4, Angle: 72 , BKB: 40, KBG: 180, Effect: Normal
  • Autocancel: Frame >60 -> Frame >50
  • FAF: Frame 62 -> Frame 52
• Down Air:
  • Landing Lag: 28 Frames -> 22 Frames
  • Vertical Momentum added to Frame 20: +1
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 20 - 21 -> Frame 20 - 22
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 270
  • Sourspot BKB: 30 -> 20
  • Sourspot: KBG: 90 -> 80
  • Sweetspot Ground only hitbox removed and sweetspot air only hitbox edited to hit grounded foes.
  • Sweetspot increased in size and moved down by 0.5 units.
  • Sweetspot BKB: 2 -> 30
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 42 -> 32
  • Throw KBG: 130 -> 140
• Down Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 95 -> 65
  • Throw KBG: 50 -> 60
• Charge Blast:
  • Full Charge Damage: 22 -> 23
  • Full Charge BKB: 20 -> 30
  • Full Charge KBG: 64 -> 74
• Laser Blaze:
  • Initial hit edited to cause flinching. The later hit is still flinchless.
• Cannon Uppercut:
  • Hit 2 Damage: 8 -> 9
  • Hit 2 Stage Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Hit 2 KBG: 134 -> 140
• Echo Reflector:
  • Air only hitbox removed and ground only hitbox edited to hit aerial foes.
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Absorbing Vortex:
  • Endlag reduced by 20%.

Cloud

Spoiler

• Jab 1:
  • Hitboxes 1 and 2 extended by 3 units.
• Jab 2:
  • Hitbox 2 extended by 1 unit.
  • Damage: 2 -> 3
• Jab 3:
  • Damage: 3.5 -> 4.5
• Up Tilt:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 10 -> Frame 4 - 10
  • Startup: Frame 6 -> Frame 6 (1.5* FSM until Frame 4 keep the original startup)
  • FAF: Frame 33 -> Frame 32
• Down Tilt:
  • Leg Intangibility removed. (It was redundant, as it was on the wrong leg)
• Up Smash:
  • Stale Hit Damage: 8 -> 10
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 8
  • Hitbox 0 extended by 3 units.
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 18 Frames -> 19 Frames
  • Damage: 14/14/13/13 -> 16/16/14.5/14.5
  • KBG: 90/100/83/83 -> 90/100/88/88
• Down Air:
  • Hitbox 0 Damage: 15 -> 14
  • Hitbox 0 KBG: 100 -> 95
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 105 -> 95
  • Lingering Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 43 -> Frame 14 - 39
• Blade Beam:
  • Projectile hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit and extended upward by 2 units
• Cross Slash:
  • Hit 1 and Hit 2 Angles, BKB, WKB, and KBG edited to match Limit Break version.
  • Hit 2 Damage: 3 -> 2
  • Hits 3 and 4 Damage reduced by 1 ( 3 -> 2)
• Climhazard:
  • Hitbox 1 BKB: 130 -> 80
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 25 -> 50
• Cross Slash (Limit Break):
  • Hit 5 Damage: 10 -> 9
  • Hit 5 Angle: 50 -> 60
  • Hit 5 KBG: 163 -> 140
• Finishing Touch:
  • Intangibility added on Frames 5 - 10.
  • Back Hit KGB: 390 -> 417

Palutena

Spoiler

• Air Speed: 0.91 -> 0.975
• Jab:
  • Startup: Frame 7 -> Frame 6
  • FAF: Frame 26 -> Frame 23
• Dash Attack
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 17 -> Frame 6 - 19
  • Damage: 9 -> 10
  • KBG: 90 -> 100
  • Lingering Hit Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Lingering Hit KBG: 70 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 42
• Side Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 17 -> Frame 11
  • Attack duration sped up by 30%
  • Hit 1 Damage: 6/4 -> 5
  • Hit 1 BKB: 43 -> 0
  • Hit 1 WKB: 0 -> 75
  • Hit 1 KBG: 65 -> 100
  • Hit 2 Damage: 6/4 -> 7/5
  • Hit 2 BKB: 43 -> 53
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 55
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 8
  • Multihit Rehit Rate: 5 Frames -> 4 Frames
  • Endlag reduced by 10%.
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> 58
• Down Tilt:
  • Air only hitbox removed.
  • Ground only hitbox edited to hit aerial foes.
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 10
  • Hitbox size increased by 1 unit and lowered by 0.5 units.
  • Angle: 361 -> 60
  • BKB: 38 -> 40
• Side Smash:
  • Damage: 16/13/0 -> 17/14/0
  • All hitbox sizes increased and moved forward by 2 units.
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 58
• Up Smash:
  • Startup: Frame 18 -> Frame 13
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 58
• Down Smash:
  • Damage: 15/13/0 -> 16/14/0
  • Angle: 60/28 -> 28
  • Windbox WKB: 32 -> 40
  • Windbox sizes increased by 4 units
  • FAF: Frame 72 -> Frame 62
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3.
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 15 Frames
  • Final Hit BKB: 30 -> 40
  • Final Hit KBG: 180 -> 190
• Back Air:
  • Damage: 12/9 -> 13/10
• Up Air:
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 12 Frames
• Down Air:
  • FAF: Frame 59 -> Frame 49
• Back Throw:
  • Angle: 361 -> 51
  • KBG: 70 -> 100
• Up Throw:
  • Damage: 8 -> 10
  • KBG: 60 -> 80
• Down Throw:
  • Damage: 5 -> 6
• Autoreticle:
  • Searching hitbox increased by 25 units.
  • Projectile BKB: 20 -> 40
  • Projectile KBG: 42 -> 50
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 54
• Reflect Barrier:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 7
  • BKB: 10 -> 30
  • Barrier WKB: 35 -> 50
  • FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 40
• Warp:
  • Intangibility Frames: Frame 16 - 31 -> Frame 11 - 36
• Counter:
  • Counter Duration: Frame 10 - 32 -> Frame 7 - 32
  • Counter FAF: Frame 75 -> Frame 55
  • Counter Attack Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3
  • Counter Attack Sourspot edited to match sweetspot
  • Counter Attack Sweetspot BKB: 40 -> 45
  • Counter Attack Sweetspot KBG: 75 -> 80
  • Counter Attack FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 36

Little Mac *Updated*

Spoiler

• Jump V Initial Velocity: 26 -> 30
• Jab 1:
  • BKB: 10 -> 0
  • WKB: 0 -> 20
  • KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 22 -> Frame 17
• Jab 2:
  • Jab 3 and Rapid Jab Windows swapped.
  • BKB: 10 -> 0
  • WKB: 0 -> 20
  • KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 22 -> Frame 18
• Rapid Jab:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.8 units
  • BKB: 0 -> 10
  • BKG: 50 -> 40
• Side Tilt
  • Counter Duration: Frame 10 - 32 -> Frame 7 - 32
  • Hit 1 (Hitbox 0) Angle: 60 -> 35
  • Hit 1 (Hitbox 0) KBG: 50 -> 30
  • Hit 2 hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
• Side Smash (All Angles):
  • Windbox WKB: 24 -> 50
  • Windbox KBG: 100 -> 80
• Neutral Air:
  • Landing Lag: 16 Frames -> 10 Frames
  • Autocancel: Frame >25 -> Frame >15
• Back Air:
  • Damage: 6/4/4 -> 7/5/5
  • BKB: 25 -> 35
• Up Air
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 14 Frames
  • Autocancel: Frame >40 -> Frame >30
  • FAF: Frame 42 -> Frame 28
• Grab/Dash Grab/Pivot Grab:
  • Startup: Frame 9/10/11 -> Frame 7/9/10
  • Grabbox sizes increased by 1 and extended forward by 1.5 units.
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw Angle: 45 -> 25
  • Throw BKB: 45 -> 35
  • Throw KBG: 104 -> 90
• Up Throw:
  • Throw Damage: 3 -> 6
  • Throw KBG: 104 -> 98
• Rising Uppercut:
  • Multihit Damage: 1 -> 2.5
• Slip Counter:
  • Counter Attack KBG: 50 -> 60

King Dedede

Spoiler

• Air Mobility: 0.63 -> 0.72
• Walk Max Velocity: 0.98 -> 1.08
• Initial Run Velocity: 1.36 -> 1.46
• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 5
  • Active Frames: Frame 10 - 12 -> Frame 8 - 12 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup).
  • Hitboxes moved from root bone onto the hammer itself
  • Angle: 70/105/361 -> 361/361/80
  • WKB: 50/48 - > 20/25/35
  • BKB: 25 -> 0
  • KBG: 10/10/100 -> 100
  • Jab 2 Window: Frame 19 -> Frame 16
  • Endlag reduced by 15%.
  • FAF: Frame 38 -> Frame 34
• Jab 2:
  • Startup: Frame 11 -> Frame 6
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 11 - 12 -> Frame 10 - 12
  • Hitboxes moved from root bone onto the hammer itself
  • Angle: 115/105/100 -> 90
  • BKB: 50/50/30 -> 55
  • KBG: 10/10/45 -> 0
  • Rapid Jab Window: Frame >24 -> Frame >18
  • Endlag reduced by 15%
• Rapid Jab Finisher:
  • Startup: Frame 6 -> Frame 3
• Dash Attack:
  • Knockback-Based Heavy Armor (Threshold of 140) added on Frame 7 - 28
  • Added Horizontal Momentum on Frame 28: +2.
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7
  • Sourspot Damage: 10 -> 12
• Down Tilt:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units and brought backward by 0.5 units.
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 17 - 25 -> Frame 16 - 21
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Neutral Air:
  • Landing Lag: 15 Frames -> 12 Frames
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 30 Frames -> 25 Frames
  • Damage: 12 -> 13
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Back Air:
  • Landing Lag: 21 Frames -> 19 Frames
• Up Air:
  • Final Hit KBG: 150 -> 165
• Down Air:
  • Landing Lag: 30 Frames -> 26 Frames
  • Sweetspot hitbox sizes increased by 2 units
  • Sourspot hitbox sizes reduced by 2 units and moved upward by 10 units.
• Grab/Dash Grab/Pivot Grab:
  • Grabbox sizes increased by 0.5 units and extended by 1 unit.
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw KBG: 80 -> 90
• Back Throw:
  • Hit 1 Damage: 4 -> 5
  • Throw Damage: 9 -> 10
  • Throw KBG: 79 -> 89
• Up Throw:
  • Throw Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
  • Throw KBG: 72 -> 75
• Down Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
  • Throw KBG: 82 -> 65
• Inhale:
  • FAF: Frame 78 -> Frame 63
• Gordo Toss:
  • Startup: Frame 29 -> Frame 25
  • Endlag reduced by 15%
• Jet Hammer:
  • Startup reduced by 25%
  • Full Charge Shield Damage: 0 -> 15

Zelda

Spoiler

• Jab:
  • Startup: Frame 11 -> Frame 8
• Side Tilt (All Angles):
  • Damage: 12/10/10 -> 13/11/11
• Side Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 50 -> Frame 44
• Up Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 64 -> Frame 60
• Forward Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 9 - 10 -> Frame 9 - 11
  • Sourspot: Damge: 4 -> 7
  • Autocancel: Frame >50 -> Frame >44
  • FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
• Back Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 8
  • Sourspot Damage: 4 -> 7
  • Autocancel: Frame 52 -> 46
  • FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
• Down Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 14 - 15 -> Frame 14 - 16
  • Sourspot Duration: Frame 15 - 25 -> Frame 16 - 25
  • Sourspot: Damage: 5/4 -> 6
  • Sweetspot: KBG: 65 -> 105
• Dash Grab:
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 44
• Pivot Grab:
  • FAF: Frame 44 -> Frame 43
• Din's Fire:
  • Sourspot Damage, Angle, BKB, and KBG edited to match sweetspot.
  • Sweetspot: BKB: 50 -> 60

Dr. Mario *New!*

Spoiler

• Weight: 98 -> 102
• Run Initial Velocity: 1.5 -> 1.825
• Walk Max Velocity: 1.1 -> 1.3
• Air Speed: 1.1 -> 1.26
• Dash Attack:
  • Main Hit BKB: 90 -> 80
  • Main Hit KBG: 42 -> 40
• Side Tilt:
  • Hitbox 0 Damage: 7 -> 9
  • Hitbox 1/2 Damage: 7 -> 10
  • Hitboxes 1 and 2 increased by 0.25 units.
  • BKB: 8 -> 10
• Up Tilt:
  • Damage: 6.3 -> 8
• Neutral Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 8 -> 9.2
  • Sourspot Damage: 5 -> 5.9
• Forward Air:
  • Sweetspot Effect: Normal -> Electric
• Up Air:
  • Damage: 7 -> 8
  • BKB: 9 -> 10
  • KBG: 100 -> 90
• Down Air:
  • Autocancel: Frame >37 -> Frame >30
• Pummel:
  • Damage: 3.25 -> 3.5
• Back Throw:
  • Throw Angle: 45 -> 40
  • Throw BKB: 60 -> 70
• Megavitamin:
  • 1.2* FSM removed
  • Main Pill Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Stale Pill Damage: 4 -> 5
• Super Jump Punch:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 12 -> 13
  • Sweetspot BKB: 30 -> 35
  • Sweetspot KBG: 100 -> 95
  • Sweetspot Effect: Normal -> Electric
• Dr. Tornado:
  • Multihit Damage: 1.2 -> 1.3
  • Final Hit Damage: 3 -> 4.8
  • Final Hit BKB: 80 -> 50
  • Final Hit KBG: 130 -> 110
  • FAF: 75 -> 65

You were doing so good too... Until I saw the changelog.


Please, no more "conservative" buffs. Actually change something. 1.2 -> 1.3 isn't a buff, it's just a change.

 

[Eugene Wang]

You were doing so good too... Until I saw the changelog.



Please, no more "conservative" buffs. Actually change something. 1.2 -> 1.3 isn't a buff, it's just a change.

You'd be surprised how big small changes from be.

2 frames can easily be the difference between a sucky jab and a good one. 3 frames can turn a kill confirm into a frame trap, and 3 more frames can turn a frame trap into a gimmick that doesn't ever work against experienced players. Removing a single frame from jumpsquat is a surprisingly good way of buffing an air game. An airspeed buff increases combo ability, approach, and recovery. And increasing the damage of a move also makes it do more knockback and makes it safer on shield.

There are more examples, but these should serve to show that you can't just dump number changes onto a character and call it a day.

 

[SageX3]

Here are my suggestions for Robin. I suggest improving his movement speed to 1.7, this will allow Robin to have an easier time following up if he lands an Arc Fire or Arc Thunder. Also to help with follow ups shave off some frames of his specials. With these changes Robin will have access to a much more agro zoning/trapping style of play. And last change the angle of forward throw from 45 to 30 degrees.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You were doing so good too... Until I saw the changelog.


Please, no more "conservative" buffs. Actually change something. 1.2 -> 1.3 isn't a buff, it's just a change.

It depends on which attributes you're editing. Falling speed modifications are NOT buffs or nerfs, as there are good AND bad things about being floaty or a fast-faller. Low falling speed helps with recovery, but makes you more vulnerable to getting Star KO'd, while high falling speed makes you more vulnerable to combos, despite offering better vertical endurance. And of course, high falling speed can be bad for anyone who doesn't have a long-ranged recovery.

Also, a difference between 1.2 and 1.3 is VERY noticeable if you compare the speed differences more closely. For instance, Diddy Kong (whose walk speed is 1.25) can walk faster than Mewtwo and Charizard, but he does walk slower than Donkey Kong.

 

[Minik]

Is it possible to remove the weird random free fall animations off off some moves with modding yet? (Ness and Lucas neutral B, Zelda side B and Wii fit trainer's canceled side B)

 

[Radical Larry]

Those...aren't random.

They're meant to do that, just like how Flame Choke and Jolt Haymaker are meant to do the same. However, I really think Fox Illusion [not Falco Phantasm, leave him something] should send him into Free Fall.

 

[Minik]

I mean Random as in why even there because they don't provide any height like other moves that would put you into freefall.

 

[Radical Larry]

They give you a bit of floating and some horizontal movement.

 

[Minik]

No where near enough to warrant something as laggy as freefall.