Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Luig]

I'm going to take 30 minutes out of my day making these changes. Then I will test them. I want to see how ridiculous these kill percents are in game.

 

[Eugene Wang]

If you have no idea what knockback values to give, specify the effects you want to result (kills at x, combos into y, etc.). We have more productive things to do than point out than that you just created the next Home Run Bat as some fighter's forward smash.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Yeah that would absolutely turn Link and Ganon into killing machines. Link only needs a few tweaks to be pretty good; don't make him Jesus. For example, just slightly buff his run and air speed. Tink needs to be better than Link in this since that's their designs. Maybe frame data fixes on Nair, jab, and dtilt. Otherwise it'd be silly

 

[Deleted member]

Question about Palutena's Autoreticle:

Would it be possible to have Palutena simply shoot the projectiles forward in a straight line if the opponent is outside the targeting range?

If not, would it be possible to completely prevent Palutena from going into the firing animation if the opponent is outside the targeting range?

Frankly, it's really annoying and looks stupid for her to go through that laggy animation only to have no projectiles fire out of her staff.

 

[JosePollo]

Question about Palutena's Autoreticle:

Would it be possible to have Palutena simply shoot the projectiles forward in a straight line when the opponent is outside the targeting range?

If not, would it be possible to completely prevent Palutena from going into the firing animation if the opponent is outside the targeting range?

Frankly, it's really annoying and looks stupid for her to go through that laggy animation only to have no projectiles fire out of her staff.

Honestly the problem with distance is not as big as the problem with the lack of detection through platforms and intangibility, and the inability to follow moving targets. If someone's far enough away that auto-reticle doesn't detect them they're probably not close enough to punish the cooldown on the animation unless their name is Sonic. If they could expand the detection range a bit (say some 10-15 or so units), make it detect through platforms (the threat of getting hit is still there even if the bullets would just hit said platform after firing) and spot dodges, and make it so it tracks movement until the last bullet is fired then it would make it a pretty good--almost spammable, really--projectile. The best of these would be the ability to track movement, though I'm not sure whether it can be programmed into the move. As of right now it's really only good to prevent camping rather than actually hitting with it due to the fact that an opponent can literally just short hop or take three steps back after being detected for the bullets to completely miss.

 

[Radical Larry]

Radical Larry

With those attribute changes to Link, who needs Toon Link? Anyway, Toon Link was designed to be a faster and lighter version of Link, so while Link could afford to have some speed buffs, he should still move slower than Toon Link. The only exception is falling speed, where Toon Link already falls slower than Link.

Umm, you realize that you made Ganon's up smash have more shieldstun than it does endlag. Also, you made Ganon's f-smash deal as much knockback at zero as roy's sweetspotted f-smash at 60%. Characters would literally always be at death percent. You made his back throw able to consistently take stocks at 60 percent no rage. You also gave his grabs the best frame data in the game. The buffs you listed for Ganon are unrealistic to say the least.

P.S. You also made Link's up-throw as strong as finishing touch

Alright, alright, I tuned up my suggestions for this. Maybe some of these would actually work and others, eh, they can be thrown in the pile of wishlists.

However, I would like to note at 15 BKB and 130 KBG, Ness's kill throw is still more powerful than a 30 BKB and 130 KBG Ganondorf B-Throw. I guess it has something to do with the 2 hits Ganondorf has with his B-Throw.

 

[RDR7]

Buff puff pls.
-Jab reset Jab
-SH autocancel dair.
-Increase pound's momentum back to brawl
-Rest kill 5-10 percent earlier.
Mwa. There it is great jiggs byutiful, riveting, classy af. 10/10
But if you want more of how I would buff Jiggly, check out my frame analysis thread.

 

[Luig]

the bthrow you suggested for Ganon kills at 60% center stage and link's uthrow kills at 41%....

 

[Radical Larry]

the bthrow you suggested for Ganon kills at 60% center stage and link's uthrow kills at 41%....

I see then. Well, I did decrease the values, so here they are:

Link's Back Throw still has a KBG of 210 (mind testing that for me? See how that kills?)
Link's Up Throw has decreased BKB to 18 (lower than the game value) and instead of around 400, the KBG is at 320.
Ganondorf's Back Throw has a BKB of 36 now.
Ganondorf's Back Throw is now at a KBG of 170, too.

This should result in Ganondorf killing at around 100% to 110% and Link killing around Ness's Back Throw.

Also, I'm redoing my suggestions for things.

But I actually want to see footage of the previous kill throws! I want to see footage because I want to see how silly my suggestions were and understand more about KB values.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Spoiler: Waahahahahahaha!

• Jab 1: Hitbox Active 8-9 < 5-6 (Or Base Dmg: 4 < 6.45) (This is so he gets more use from his jab since it's overall not safe of shield or in neutral)

• Ftilt (All Angles): Hitbox Active 12-15 < 10-15 AND Base Dmg: 14 on all active frames and angles
• Usmash: FAF 58 < 53
  
• Dsmash: Hitbox Active: 18-27 (Sour Spot/Late: 28-36) < 13-22 (23-31) (Or replace sour spot hitboxes with new sweet spot hitboxes)
  
• Nair: Hitbox Active: 4 < 3-4 AND KGB: 100 < 135
  
• Corkscrew (Final Hit): Base Knockback 60 < 85

(These gives Wario a bit more kill potential while still fairly limiting it)

• Utilt: Hitbox Active: 12-14 < 7-10 (Or FAF: 36 < 30) (Utilit is one of Wario's most unused move,this to get it to work as a better anti-air while still limiting it)

• Fair (Sour Spot/Late): Hitbox Active 7-17 < 7-20
• Uair: FAF 47 < 39

(These changes give Wario more time to act out of them and protection, giving him a slightly better defense)

I forgot to mention Wario's Back Throw.
As of now it's his weakest throw since, being heavily overshadow by his forward throw as a kill move.
Since it doesn't have many uses outside of that, how bout a damage buff?

Bthrow: Base Dmg: 7 < 11.5

 

[Luig]

I see then. Well, I did decrease the values, so here they are:

Link's Back Throw still has a KBG of 210 (mind testing that for me? See how that kills?)
Link's Up Throw has decreased BKB to 18 (lower than the game value) and instead of around 400, the KBG is at 320.
Ganondorf's Back Throw has a BKB of 36 now.
Ganondorf's Back Throw is now at a KBG of 170, too.

This should result in Ganondorf killing at around 100% to 110% and Link killing around Ness's Back Throw.

Also, I'm redoing my suggestions for things.

But I actually want to see footage of the previous kill throws! I want to see footage because I want to see how silly my suggestions were and understand more about KB values.

I can tell you that Link's back throw killed at around 135 center stage. However, I have no means to record mods. I won't get a capture card for another 4 days.

 

[Radical Larry]

I can tell you that Link's back throw killed at around 135 center stage. However, I have no means to record mods. I won't get a capture card for another 4 days.

The YouTube function doesn't work I assume? Ah well, that kind of sucks.

But hey, Link's Back Throw should have that kill damage center stage for the mod (if he decides to take some suggestions). It's not unreasonable for him to have that kind of kill throw considering Link's back throw does nothing for him in the vanilla game. At least it is more balanced than his U-Throw seemed to be (41% kill, jeez, I'm too radical).

 

[Eugene Wang]

I think a better buff would be for Link to not stare at his wrist for a full third of a second before reeling the hookshoot back in.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think a better buff would be for Link to not stare at his wrist for a full third of a second before reeling the hookshoot back in.

Or how about my suggestion of having him not flashing his giant wing for almost half a second before throwing that F1 tornado?

 

[ElectroLightning]

How about these Ganon buffs?


Ground Attacks
Down Smash: Removal of thigh hitbox
Reason: Most of the Ganon mains know about Ganon's jank thigh hitbox (the one that doesn't chain into the second hit). This allows Down Smash to link properly all of the time.

Aerial Attacks
Neutral Air: Landing lag decreased from 17 to 14
Reason: This allows Neutral Air to be a better approach option, and makes Ganon safe when landing with the 1st hit of Neutral Air (but not safe enough to grant followups).

Forward Air: Auto-cancel window changed from <55 to <42
Reason: This allows Forward Air to auto-cancel in a full hop, so Ganon can finally use this move without suffering 22 frames of landing lag.

Special Attacks
Dark Dive (Up Special): Angle changed from 361° to 20°
Reason: Even though Dark Dive was buffed in terms of damage in 1.1.3, it is still one of Ganon's more useless moves. This changes Dark Dive to be a powerful semi-spike, giving it some utility against people trying to edge-guard Ganon (or for disrespect ).

Grabs / Throws
Standing Grab: Hitbox size changed from 2.75 to 3.10
Reason: This increases Ganon's terrible grab range (the worst in the game) to a poor but usable one. This makes it whiff less during shield grab attempts. Ganon's dash and pivot grab I chose to keep unchanged, as their range is somewhat manageable.

Dash Grab: Grab hitbox duration changed from 11-12 to 10-11, FAF decreased from 45 to 41
Reason: This makes Ganon's dash grab come out a little quicker and end a little sooner, so that Ganondorf has a bit of an easier time against campers or spammers that like to hold shield.

Pummel: Damage increased from 3% to 4%
Reason: Considering that Ganon can usually get at maximum two pummels in, this makes getting grabbed by him a bit more threatening.

Back Throw: BKB increased from 30 to 60
Reason: This makes Back Throw a solid kill option at about 130%, giving him an actual kill throw. This, again, is a buff to makes his grabs more threatening.

Up Throw: Second hit damage increased from 3% to 5%
Reason: This gives Up Throw some utility as an alternate kill throw on platforms. The damage also amounts to 12%, which makes it a decent damage dealer similar to Forward Throw.

Other
Run Speed: Increase from 1.218 to 1.312
Reason: This makes Ganon run at the same speed as Dr. Mario, which allows him to punish and follow-up better for combos.

Air Speed: Increase from .79 to .88
Reason: This slightly improves horizontal recovery and neutral game. It allows Ganon to fully capitalize on his powerful aerials, which when combined with better aerial approach buffs would give him a better time against campers.

I'm not sure if anyone read this, but I think they should be considered...

 

[Deleted member]

I think the biggest buff Ganon deserves is to have Darkness effects added to his Forward Air and Back Air

 

[ElectroLightning]

I think the biggest buff Ganon deserves is to have Darkness effects added to his Forward Air and Back Air

I'd rather have electric effects, but whatever...

 

[Slayonettaz]

With Zelda and Palutena being touched on, I'm totally content with all the low-tiered characters that I play, but I figured I'd touch on a few things for Game + Watch since he hasn't been mentioned at all. I know that he's someone that's low-tier mostly due to lack of representation but I feel like a few things could be touched on. Note that this is my first time trying to suggest technical changes like this so I don't know how many lines I might be crossing as far as possibly breaking a character goes (especially as far as frame data is concerned) but I still wanted to give it a shot.

Spoiler: G+W Changes

Attributes:

• Dash increased from 1.5264 to 1.553 (Brawl's value) With the Walk and Air Speed buffs, I figure he might as well still have the faster dash. I don't really mind his current dash as he is fast, but it seemed like an arbitrary change to make between games.

Ground Attacks:

• Reduce endlag on Up-Tilt. Right now, there's a pretty big punish window in regards to other tilts when whiffed. I don't think dropping it from 14 frames to 8 frames like Brawl is really necessary since the move is a lot stronger than Brawl, but maybe knock off 3-4 frames.
• Revert Up-Tilt's knockback angle to 100 degrees instead of 115. This was changed in 1.0.6 and I feel like increasing its combo potential might be pretty cool. As it stands it can combo into itself and nair at low percents but that's all that I can think of at the top of my head.
• Reduce endlag on Down-Tilt drastically. It went from 10 frames to 29 frames between games. I think at the highest it should only be between 12 and 15 frames, definitely not 29. Down Tilt can get punished so easily and tbh isn't a move I like to use as it stands because it just isn't worth it.
• Reduce endlag on dash attack from 19 frames to around 12 or 15. It got nerfed damage-wize between games and went from 8 frames of lag to 19. Again, don't revert to Brawl since the nerf was probably imposed for a reason, but at least make it faster.
• Increase sweetspot on F-Smash to make it easier to land? (Don't know how strong this could make the move as while the damage values don't change, increased sweetspot means more consistent damage output) As it stands the sourspot is huge and out-prioritizes the sweetspot (according to SmashWiki though I'm not quite sure what this means by a gameplay standpoint.)
• Reduce endlag on D-Smash. I don't know the exact amount it has but it also got a bigger sourspot and a smaller, weaker sweetspot compared to Brawl. I feel like the sweetspot is still well placed though since it's at the edge of the hammers, so the hitboxes don't need to be changed, but I still feel like the move is too slow.

Aerials:

• Reduce endlag on Nair and Fair from 12 frames back to 9.
• Allow Nair to autocancel? (IDK if this is possible for you at the moment and it's also in a similar situation with F-Smash where I'm afraid doing this will make it too good of a move, in this case as a combo tool. )
• Buff Fair's damage output to be between Brawl and Smash 4's (which seems to be the common theme here in this list.) That means don't make it a ridiculously strong attack that deals 16% and kills early, but don't leave it as weak as it is. I'd say round the damage up to an even 12% compared to 11.5 and increase its kill potential on stage that way it can viably kill before 150%. My only concern is how early will doing that make it kill off stage? It's already a useful edgeguarding tool and I can imagine that increasing its knockback could make its potential really scary and annoying.
• Buff Bair's damage output between Brawl and Smash 4's. I think that with it connecting a lot better here, 15% is too much, however making it do 10 or 11% compared to the 9 that it does now would be great. Also possibly cut off the endlag from 19 frames to about 14 or 15.
• Buff Dair's weak hitbox back up to 6% instead of 3.5. The strong hitbox is just fine where it is, but the weak one feels too weak. Also cut off some endlag but not too much since there still has to be risk to using the move just like the other Stall-then-Falls. (15 frames is way to lenient but 29 is too harsh I feel like 22-24 would be a good middleground.)

Specials:

• If possible maybe give Oil Panic the ability to stall again? Obviously not to Bucket Braking extremes, but still let it stall you. It does do it a little bit but I'm thinking make it Reflector/PSI Magnet level of stall, especially since Oil Panic comes out much slower than both of those moves anyways so it isn't nearly as spammable (and stall-spamming gets really easy to punish anyways so it doesn't feel like a big issue.)

 

[Deleted member]

I'd rather have electric effects, but whatever...

Darkness on Fair, Electric on Bair (like in Project M.) Best of both worlds.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf's B-Reversed Aerial Warlock Punch should just be a one-hit KO for how hard it is to hit (even if it can be one).

 

[JosePollo]

I'd very much appreciate it if someone took the time to apply these changes to Lucas and gave me feedback on how well they worked compared to my intended vision for each change.

Spoiler: A/S-tier Lucas

Spoiler: Attributes

Weight: 94 (tied with Ness and Sonic)
Run speed: 1.5 (tied with Ike, Luigi, and Wario)
Walk speed: 0.85 (between Bowser–0.858–and Wario–0.847)
Air speed: 1.1 (tied with Captain Falcon, Cloud, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, and Sheik)
Fall speed: 1.37 (between Bowser–1.39–and Zelda–1.35)
Air acceleration: 0.085 → 0.9 (tied with Falco, Ness, and Pikachu)

• Gives Lucas more ambiguous aerial mobility by letting him change direction more quickly mid-air. Helps him land more easily.

Gravity: 0.09 (tied with R.O.B, Sonic, and Wii Fit Trainer)
Jumpsquat: 5 frames
Soft/hard landing lag: 2/5 frames

Spoiler: Jab 1

Changes:

• IASA: frame 20 → 18
  • Makes for more lenient jab cancels to help in CQC.
• Transition to jab 2: frame 7 (jab 2 starts frame 8)
• Jab 1 loop: frame 19 → 11 (jab 1 starts frame 12)
  • Increases the number of Jab 1's that Lucas can produce per second to a more reasonable number.

Spoiler: Jab 2

Changes:

• IASA: frame 20 → 18
• Transition to jab 3: frame 7 (jab 3 starts frame 8)
• Jab 1 loop: 19 → 11 (jab 1 starts frame 12)
• 2.0% → 2.5% damage
  • Produces slightly more hitstun, boosting Lucas's CQC by giving him more lenient jab cancels.

Spoiler: Jab 3

Changes:

• IASA: frame 30
• 4.0% → 3.0% damage
  • Slightly reduces the damage of the full jab combo from 8.5% to 8.0%.
• Launch angle 48° → 45°
  • A slightly more horizontal angle can give better stage control.
• 60 BKB/80 KBG → 42 BKB/90 KBG
  • For less overall reward off of committing to a full jab combo.

Spoiler: Dash attack

Changes:

• IASA: frame 39 → 34
  • Cooldown reduction should help a sourspotted hit combo a bit better at low percents.
• Sourspot active 15-16 → 14-15; sweetspot active 14-17 (split into a clean and late hit: 14-15, 16-17)
  • This is mainly to match the PSI animation during the attack. The PSI hexagons start on frame 14, then fade out on frame 18. Coincidentally, this also helps Lucas's dash attack punish rolls more easily due to having more active frames
• Sourspot: launch angle 75° → 80°
  • A more vertical angle helps keep opponents nearby.
• Sourspot: 60 BKB/76 KBG → 50 BKB/69 KBG
  • For increased comboability.
• Sourspot: electric effect (0x3) → normal “hit” effect (0x0)
  • This is mostly a flavor change. Lucas is hitting with his hand, not with the PSI energy, so it's kind of weird that it still zaps the opponent.
• Sweetspot: clean launch angle 46° → 40°
  • Helps boost the killing power of Lucas's dash attack (which is basically a running smash attack when sweetspotted) by lowering the launch trajectory of a struck opponent and therefore reducing the distance they have to travel to reach the blast zone.
• Sweetspot: 60 BKB/70 KBG → 50 BKB/81 KBG.
  • More growth = more kill potential. With the new values a sweet spotted dash attack produces 160 units of knockback at 100% vs. Cloud as opposed to the former 155.
• Sweetspot: hitbox size 5.8 → 6.0 clean
• Sweetspot: clang=0x1 → 0x0
  • Almost all of his electric PSI hitboxes are unclankable.

Hitbox: ID|Active|Bone|Damage|Angle|Knockback|Size|Location|Effect|Hitlag|SDI|Clank|Rebound
Late hitbox: ID=0x1|16-17|0x0|10.5%|361°|50.0 BKB 81.0 KBG|5.7|x=0.0 y=5.5 z=14.5|0x3|1.0|1.0|No|No

Spoiler: Forward tilt

Spoiler: Angled upwards

Changes:

• IASA: frame 26 → 24
  • Reduces the overall cooldown by 1 when combined with reduced start-up.
• Active: 7-10 → 6-9
  • Sourspot: 6-7
    • Now only active at the furthest extension of Lucas's arm.
  • Sweetspot: 6-7 clean, 8-9 late
    • The PSI hexagons oscillate twice (hence 6-7, 8-9) before dissipating.
• Sweetspot (clean & late): 30 BKB/75 KBG → 34 BKB/80 KBG
  • Slightly better kill potential while being a bit safer on-hit at low percents.
• Sweetspot:
  • Clean: hitbox size 4.4 → 4.5
  • Late: hitbox size 4.2
• Sweetspot:
  • Y=9.0 early, shifts to 9.7 late; an upward movement of 0.7 units
  • Z=8.5 early, shifts to 9.2 late; a forward movement of 0.7 units
    • The PSI hitbox moves diagonally upward, following the movement of the PSI particles.

Spoiler: Regular

Changes:

• IASA: frame 26 → 24
  • Reduces the overall cooldown by 1 when combined with reduced start-up.
• Active: 7-10 → 6-9
  • Sourspot: 6-7
    • Now only active at the furthest extension of Lucas's arm.
  • Sweetspot: 6-7 clean, 8-9 late
    • The PSI hexagons oscillate twice (hence 6-7, 8-9) before dissipating.
• Sweetspot (clean & late): 30 BKB/75 KBG → 34 BKB/80 KBG
  • Slightly better kill potential while being a bit safer on-hit at low percents.
• Sweetspot:
  • Clean: hitbox size 4.4 → 4.5
  • Late: hitbox size 4.2
• Sweetspot:
  • Z=9.5 early, shifts to 10.2 late; a forward movement of 0.7 units
    • The PSI hitbox moves forward, following the movement of the PSI particles.

Spoiler: Angled downwards

Changes:

• IASA: 26 → 24
  • Reduces the overall cooldown by 1 when combined with reduced start-up.
• Active 7-10 → 6-9
  • Sourspot: 6-7
    • Now only active at the furthest extension of Lucas's arm.
  • Sweetspot: 6-7 clean, 8-9 late
    • The PSI hexagons oscillate twice (hence 6-7, 8-9) before dissipating.
• Sweetspot: 30 BKB/75 KBG → 34 BKB/80 KBG
  • Slightly better kill potential while being a bit safer on-hit at low percents.
• Sweetspot
  • Clean: hitbox size 4.4 → 4.5 early
  • Late: hitbox size 4.2
• Sweetspot:
  • Y=1.0 early, shifts to 0.3 late; a downward movement of 0.7 units.
  • Z=8.5 early, shifts to 9.2 late; a forward movement of 0.7 untis.
    • The PSI hitbox moves forward, following the movement of the PSI particles.

Spoiler: Up tilt

Changes:

• IASA: frame 37 → 34
  • Reduced cooldown help up tilt's ability to combo into other things at very low percents.
• 1st hit: hitboxes active 4 → 3-4
• 1st hit: 1.5% → 2.0% damage
• 1st hit: clang=0x0 → 0x1 (transcendent → clankable; rebound stays 0x0)
  • These three changes cause the side hitboxes to "trample" hitboxes of 11.0% damage or less when they clank. Useful in a situation where you clank jabs with someone due to most jabs being frame 3 or 4.
• 2nd hit: 50 BKB/100 KBG → 38 BKB/115 KBG
  • More combo potential early while killing at a slightly lower percent (not remotely close to Diddy Kong's up tilt, though).
• 2nd hit, hitbox 0x1: normal “hit” effect (0x0) → electric (0x3)
  • More of an aesthetic change than anything.
• 2nd hit, late: 50 BKB/100 KBG → 38 BKB/115 KBG
  • Again, more aesthetic than mechanical. Basically to maintain equal knockback values between the clean and late hits.

Spoiler: Down tilt

Changes:

• IASA: frame 16
• Hitbox 0x0: launch angle 76° → 80°
• Hitbox 0x0: 18 BKB → 20 BKB
• Hitbox 0x1: launch angle 40° → 45°
• Hitbox 0x1: 10 BKB → 15 BKB
• Hitbox 0x2: 8 BKB → 10 BKB
  • All of these are basically just to pop the opponent slightly farther up into the air when hit; a rather minute change that should help Lucas's CQC mix-ups.

Spoiler: Forward smash

Changes:

• IASA: 47 → 55
  • Cooldown increased due to a sizable buff in kill power when tippered.
• Charge: frame 8
• Reflective: 10-19 → 9-21
  • Now reflective immediately after the charge frame, and up until the action trail of the swing disappears completely.
• Sweetspot: 15.0% → 16.0% damage
• Sourspot: 50 BKB/88 KBG → 36 BKB/90 KBG
• Sweetspot: 50 BKB/88 KBG → 36 BKB/100 KBG
  • Damage and knockback changes to buff the kill power of a tippered hit while nerfing a sourspotted hit.

Spoiler: Up smash

Oh boy, changes:

• IASA: 99 → 95
  • To accomodate reduced start-up.
• Invincible: 1-4 → 1-6
  • Provides a more lenient window to successfully perform up smash parries.
• Charge: frame 5 → 7
  • To keep the charge frame outside of the extended invincibility window.
• Intangibility (head): 15-29 → 8-25
  • Reduces Lucas's effective hurtbox to just his trunk and stubby limbs. The intangibility window starts immediately after the charge frame and up to the frame before the first strong blast of PSI energy.
• Shockwave hitbox: active 28 → 24
  • Start-up decreased by four frames.
• Shockwave hitbox: 110 FKB/90 KBG → 155 FKB/100 KBG
  • Stronger pulling effect when hit by the attack's shockwave.
• Shockwave hitbox: Y=5.0 → Y=2.5, Z=-8.0, Z stretch=8.0
  • Instead of two large hitboxes, the shockwave is now one long hitbox that reaches pretty deep under the stage, which allows up smash to much more easily hit a ledge-hanging opponent.
• New hitbox added: 0x0 (all subsequent hitboxes would have to shift ID upward by 1)

Hitbox: ID|Active|Bone|Damage|Angle|Knockback|Size|Location|Effect|Hitlag|SDI|Clank|Rebound
PK Love: ID=0x0|26-27|0x0|21.0%|95°|50.0 BKB 80.0 KBG|5.0|x=0.0 y=14.0 z=0.0|0x3|1.3|1.0|No|No

In the same location as the size 12.0 PSI hitbox, meaning it's going to be completely overlapped. Opponents pulled in by the shockwave hitboxes probably won't be hit by this very powerful hitbox unless they're already standing in position to get hit by it. This is mostly for when a Lucas player is able to get some kind of aerial read on the their opponent. Landing this hitbox is going to most likely lead to an early stock.

• Hitbox active frame changes:
  • 1st stage: 30-32 → 26-30
  • 2nd stage: 33-37 → 31-35
  • 3rd stage: 38-42 → 36-40
  • 4th stage: 43-47 → 41-45
  • 5th stage: 48-52 → 46-50
    • An increase of 2 frames to the overall window of active frames during the attack (the very last flicker of PSI particles way up at the top).
• All hitboxes: 77 KBG → 80 KBG; BKB changes:
  • 1st stage: 48 → 50
  • 2nd stage: 42 → 45
  • 3rd stage: 37 → 40
  • 4th stage: 32 → 35
  • 5th stage: 27 → 30
    • Knockback changes to better reward connecting with such a slow, unsafe, and committal attack.
• All hitboxes: Clang=0x1 → 0x0; Rebound=0x1 → 0x0
  • Set to transcendent, as with all his other electric PSI hitboxes.

Spoiler: Down smash

Changes:

• IASA: frame 60
• Charge: frame 6
• Data bit “unk_7698BB42(0x0, 0x2a)” removed
  • This is presumably the code in the data the prevents down smash from being able to hit the same target more than once.
• 2nd hit: hitbox size 9.8 → 10.0

Spoiler: Neutral aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 45 → 38
  • Less aerial cooldown for increased combo potential.
• Landing lag: 13 → 12 frames
• Auto-cancel: starting frame 37 → frames 1-4, then starting frame 37
  • I'm refraining for suggesting that n-air should auto-cancel due to just how good an attack it would become if it did. It'd become downright spammable.
• 1st hitbox: active 7-23 → 5-21
  • Thanks to an early auto-cancel that lasts until the first hitbox becomes active, however, n-air becomes a viable mash-out during faux-combos since landing before frame 5 while mashing would buffer a frame-2 jab instead of incurring landing lag. Connecting with the hitbox would possibly reverse the combo situation against the opponent.
• 1st hitbox: 2.0% → 1.2% damage
• 1st hitbox: 20 BKB/70 KBG → 38 BKB/60 KBG
• 1st hitbox: hitbox size 5.3 → 5.5
  • These three changes help n-air more reliably connect the multi-hits together, though it's still very much possible to escape if the Lucas player doesn't actively follow the oppnent's SDI thoughout. A 2.0 SDI modifier will do that.
• 1st hitbox: 1.0 → 0.7 hitlag
  • Safe enough on-shield to stop Lucas from being shield-grabbed while in the middle of his attack.
• 1st hitbox: Re-hit=0x5 → 0x4 (hits the target again every 5 → 4 frames)
  • Can now hit a maximum of 5 times: on frames 5, 9, 13, 17, and 21. That's one more hit of shield pressure and SDI'ability. With the damage decrease, the total damage goes from 12.0% max to 10.0%.
• Final hit: active 26 → 24
• Final hit: 140 → 115 KBG
  • Significantly widens the percentage window where n-air can combo into other attacks at the cost of any killing potential.
• Final hit: 2.0 → 1.5 hitlag
  • For an overall faster n-air experience.

Spoiler: Forward aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 42 → 40
• Landing lag: 12 → 15 frames
  • Increased due to a significantly more useful auto-cancel window.
• Auto-cancel: frame 1, then starting frame 38 → starting frame 27
  • Auto-cancels off of a short hop, the first time Lucas's legs come together during the animation.
• Sourspot active 9-10 → 7-8 clean, 9-10 late; sweetspot active 9-12 → 7-10
  • A start-up decrease of 2 frames.
• Sourspot damage and knockback changes:
  • Clean: 9.0% damage; 10 BKB/100 KBG → 20 BKB/80 KBG
  • Late: 6.0% damage; 7 BKB/100 KBG → 10 BKB/80 KBG
• Late sourspot: hitbox size 3.3 → 3.0
• Late sourspot: Y=1.0 → 3.0
  • All these sourspot changes incorporate the "phantom" sourspot in the data while maintaining the current f-air mechanically intact, though slightly buffed; it's now actually possible for a late f-air to yield a sourspotted hit.
• Sweetspot: launch angle 46° → 361°
  • Lowers the aerial trajectory of the PSI hitbox by 1° while giving it the ability to jab-lock opponents under 42% damage.
• Sweetspot: 97 KBG → 100 KBG

Spoiler: Back aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 40 → 36
• Landing lag: 15 frames → 20 frames
  • Increased to compensate for the faster aerial cooldown.
• Auto-cancel: frames 1-2, then starting frame 39 → starting frame 35
• Inner sourspot: 9.0% → 9.5%
• Inner sourspot: 30 BKB → 20 BKB
  • The combination of decreased cooldown, slightly higher damage and lower base knockback slightly widen the rather small combo window of sourspotted back air.
• Inner sourspot: X=0.0 → X=-1.5
• Meteor/over-lapped hitbox: X=4.5 → X=3.5
  • Hitboxes moved closer to Lucas's body in order to give hitbox 0x3 more room to connect.
• Outer sourspot: 361° → 0° angle
  • Makes back air a deadly edge-guarding tool where missing a clean meteor still results in hitting with a semi-spiking hitbox.

Spoiler: Up aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 46 → 31
  • Actionable in the air before Lucas lands from his short hop.
• Landing lag: 12 → 10 frames
• Auto-cancel: frame 1, then starting frame 38 → 1-5, then starting frame 24
  • These changes make up air Lucas's fastest aerial, overall. Also gives him a decent A-landing tool (if you don't know what "A-landing" is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbC_nNAMYsU)
• Bone=0x0 → 0x13 (head)
  • Instead of happening in one specific spot above Lucas, the hitbox now follows the arcing motion of his head. This clashes visually with the current animation, so the puff of dust that happens roughly where the hitbox is would have to be changed for an action trail somehow.
• Active 7-9 → 6-9
  • The hitbox is active on the frame Lucas thrusts his head forward and disappears once his head loses its forward momentum.
• 13.0% → 11.0% damage
  • Nerfed damage to compensate for the massive boost in utility.
• Size 5.2 → 5.0, X=5.0
  • Diameter-wise, starts from about Lucas's chin all the way up to the tip of his spiky pompadour.
• Hitlag: 1.1 → 1.0
  • Due to the decrease in damage.

Spoiler: Down aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 57 → 50
  • Lucas can now act out of down air four frames before landing.
• Landing lag: 25 frames
• Auto-cancel: starting frame 47 → starting frame 40
  • Cooldown decrease to match the faster hitbox loops.
• Hitbox loop: starts on frame 10 → 8 and loops every 8 → 6 frames
  • Active frame changes: 10-12, 18-20, 26-28 → 8-10, 14-16, 20-22
• Hitbox loop:
  • Lower hitbox (0x0): 42 BKB/10 KBG → 50 BKB/5 KBG
  • Upper hitbox (0x1): 20 FKB/100 KBG → 30 FKB/100 KBG
  • Upper hitbox (0x1): Y=1.0 → 2.0
    • These changes, combined with faster hitbox loops, should hopefully allow dair to more reliably link all four hits together no matter the percent. A 366° angle would be stupidly good on this attack, so I don't want to go that route in order to fix d-air.
• Final hit: active 34-35 → 26-28
• Final hit, hitbox 0x0: hitbox size 6.9 → 7.0

Spoiler: Z aerial

Changes:

• Clean hitbox: size 2.3 → 2.5
• Late hitbox: size 2.0 → 2.5
  • Z-air's already got a pretty small hitbox, but it gets smaller as it goes along, too?
• Both hitboxes: 1.0 → 0.8 hitlag

Spoiler: Grabs

• All grabs: Add a grab box right in front of Lucas to cover the dead zone at point blank between his body and where the rope snake's grab box becomes active. 12-13 for standing and pivot grab, 14-15 for dash grab.

Spoiler: Throws

Forward throw:

• IASA: frame 53 → 55
• 10.0% → 8.0% damage
• Launch angle 48° → 50°
• 80 BKB/71 KBG → 52 BKB/100 KBG
  • Damage lowered and base knockback lowered, launch trajectory raised by 2°, but knockback growth increased to counteract all the nerfs. Despite 100 KBG, it still kills only slightly earlier than previously.

Back throw:

• IASA: frame 53 → 55
• 10.0% → 8.0% damage
• Launch angle 41° → 40°
• 80 BKB/71 KBG → 52 BKB/100 KBG
  • Same as with forward throw.

Up throw (ebola back throw re-incarnate):

• IASA: frame 56 → 60
• 10.0% → 12.0% damage
• Launch angle 90° → 80°
• 78 BKB/69 KBG → 10 BKB/102 KBG
  • Made a more legitimate kill throw. Should start to kill at around like 120%, down from the 140% average it's at now. The angle change is so that up throw and forward throw can serve as DI mix-ups for each other at kill percentage.

Down throw:

• IASA: frame 50
• Target thrown on frame 41 → 40
• 6.5% → 5.5% damage
• Launch angle 80° → 105°
• 78 BKB/51 KBG → 90 BKB/40 KBG
  • Much better for comboing, as it keeps opponents in around the same airspace for longer periods of time. Another reason for the big kill power nerf to up air, but you don't want to be caught by Lucas's down throw if he's facing away from the ledge as it can probably lead to a down throw back air if you DI incorrectly.

Spoiler: PK Freeze

Changes:

• Article: 80 BKB/21 KBG → 60 BKB/38 KBG
  • Lower BKB for more combo ability early, with higher KBG allow it to kill under 200% fully charged. Still PK Freeze, though.

Spoiler: PK Fire

Changes:

• IASA: frame 53 → 50
• Projectile generated: frame 21 → 18
  • Not much to explain. 3 less frames can make all the difference.

Spoiler: PK Thunder

Changes:

• None.

Spoiler: PSI Magnet

Start-up:

• 9 frames; absorb begins frame 10 → 7 frames; absorb begins frame 8

Hold:

Hitbox: ID|Bone|Damage|Angle|Knockback|Size|Location|Effect|Hitlag|SDI|Clank|Rebound|Other properties
Windbox: ID=0x0|0x0|0.0%|180°|5.0 FKB 100.0 KBG|10.5|x=0.0 y=6.3 z=12.0|0x0|0.0|0.0|No|No|Unblockable

This is basically going to slowly pull opponents into where the release hitbox happens.

Release:

• IASA: frame 20 → 12

Reduced start-up and cooldown to make this an overall better move to actually combat things that it's supposed to combat. The windbox addition is rather inconsequential (just something I thought would be pretty cool--Lucas just sucking things into a vortex) but can have niche use if, say, you get a jab lock vs. a character with poor recovery. The windbox guarantees they're in the right position to get hit once you release the magnet and now they're off-stage in a very unfavorable position (under Lucas, where he can edge guard with a well-placed back air or an escape read into a down air.)

I realize it's a lot, though. I'm specifically looking for feedback on the kill percents of the altered up tilt, f-smash (both hitboxes), the new hitbox on up smash (although the coding for that might be a little complicated), all of his throws except down throw, and PK Freeze. Preferably on a weight 100 character. If you can get the windbox on PSI Magnet working that'd be amazing, too.

 

[Tobb99]

Speaking of Ganon, he definitely needs a better recovery. He got one of the worst in the game. Makes his recovery moves have longer range.

 

[Radical Larry]

Speaking of Ganon, he definitely needs a better recovery. He got one of the worst in the game. Makes his recovery moves have longer range.

If I had the power, I'd make his Flame Choke not send him into helpless, have a 25% range increase, then make his Dark Dive have a 75% vertical increase. Or, you know, give him air speed.

 

[Deleted member]

The only things I would do are remove the free fall from Flame Choke and give him back his Dark Dive armor from Brawl. The range of each move alone is fine. Having a poor recovery would be okay if he wasn't lacking in so many other areas. Make him better on stage and his poor recovery would be a fine tradeoff.

 

[Radical Larry]

But I'm serious, I think that the game should have reflected on Ganondorf's appearance from Twilight Princess...
Where if he runs at you, he RUNS AT YOU.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, I too am in the camp that is not fond of Ganon's design in Smash, but I think changing his moveset is beyond the scope of this mod. We should simply focus on making his current moveset better, i.e. character attributes/frame date/hitboxes.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think you misunderstood. I kind of want to see how a change in his speed will work...and maybe even mapping Captain Falcon's dashing animations to Ganondorf could work. Again, Ganondorf RUNS at you in Twilight Princess. And he's a tank.

Which I should iterate this: He needs resistance to attacks that deal less than 14% damage. You know, Medium Armor as to make hits like tilts and certain F-Smashes just give him hits, whilst also not making him flinch as he takes damage. He's got his own set of armor that isn't utilized properly, so...eh.

Or maybe a special boon like Bowser Jr., except if Ganondorf's armor is hit, the damage from the opponent's attacks is nullified by 50%.

 

[Furret24]

I think you misunderstood. I kind of want to see how a change in his speed will work...and maybe even mapping Captain Falcon's dashing animations to Ganondorf could work. Again, Ganondorf RUNS at you in Twilight Princess. And he's a tank.

Which I should iterate this: He needs resistance to attacks that deal less than 14% damage. You know, Medium Armor as to make hits like tilts and certain F-Smashes just give him hits, whilst also not making him flinch as he takes damage. He's got his own set of armor that isn't utilized properly, so...eh.

Or maybe a special boon like Bowser Jr., except if Ganondorf's armor is hit, the damage from the opponent's attacks is nullified by 50%.

Do you not realize how broken having universal heavy armor that powerful is? For characters with low damage outputs, it would be borderline impossible to launch him at all. Sheik only has one attack that does 14% or more at all iirc (sweetspotted up smash).

It would also make him effectively immune to any kind of combos, as virtually every combo move in the game does less than 14%. There's only one or two throws that do 14% or more in this game, so he'd be basically immune to throws as well.

 

[Deleted member]

I definitely think Ganon could use Dash Speed and Air Speed buffs just so that he can somewhat keep up with the faster characters.

Universal 14% armor would be way too overpowered, but I do think giving a few of his attacks some limited armor would be good.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Speaking of Ganon, he definitely needs a better recovery. He got one of the worst in the game. Makes his recovery moves have longer range.

There is Wizard's Dropkick, though you can't rely on it in default only conditions, and it's not exactly helpful if you're not above a stage ledge.

Anyway, one way to help Ganondorf would be to give him flinch resistance against weaker attacks, much like with Bowser, though that would make Charizard, Dedede, and Donkey Kong quite jealous.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Adding armour should be like... the last option looked at for buffing characters/moves. Extremely easy to make overboard, and even if balanced well its... not fun and extremely frustrating to fight against.

Realistically, armour should only be looked at for moves/actions that already have them, in which case we can discuss if a move has too much/not enough and subtract/add frames of armour accordingly.

The most I'd give Ganondorf armour wise would be Tough Guy like what Bowser has. Same values on it as well. Nice little bonus, not something you rely on. But in return he couldn't get any movement speed buffs what so ever. Its not a horrible trade off for the super heavies in terms of this patch: either they get small speed buffs or they also get Tough Guy. Don't think DK needs either though, he's already pretty darn fast for his weight. Charizard probably just needs an air speed buff. D3... probably give him Tough Guy over a speed buff.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganon needs movement speed buffs. Nothing crazy, but enough of a boost that it's noticeable. He simply cannot keep up with the faster characters otherwise. They just run circles around him and combo him to hell.

I don't see why we couldn't give at least a couple of his attacks limited armor against weaker attacks in addition to movement speed buffs. Bowser is proof enough that this wouldn't make a character overpowered. It's at least worth testing out imo.

 

[Radical Larry]

Alright, I admit my thing was flawed. Quite flawed.
But anyone want Ganondorf to run at 1.5 speed and move in the air at 0.85?

...and anyone want to imagine what it'd be like if Ganondorf got a running speed and aerial speed of 50.0? (This is a joke and wouldn't happen, but I'd like to see it recorded.)

 

[Eugene Wang]

...and anyone want to imagine what it'd be like if Ganondorf got a running speed and aerial speed of 50.0? (This is a joke and wouldn't happen, but I'd like to see it recorded.)

STRAIGHT OUTTA PLAY

 

[Deleted member]

1.5 is still too high for Ganon.

I suggested raising Zelda's run speed to 1.42 to match Peach's run speed. Ganon should still be slower than both of them.

 

[Radical Larry]

1.5 is still probably too high.

I suggested raising Zelda's run speed to 1.42 to match Peach's run speed. Ganon should still be slower than both of them.

Ganondorf having a 1.4 to 1.5 dashing speed would more reflect his normal running speed in TP, and would give Ganondorf a better benefit to his mobility. It's not too much considering I'm suggesting Link's running speed be around 1.6 to 1.7.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ganon needs movement speed buffs. Nothing crazy, but enough of a boost that it's noticeable. He simply cannot keep up with the faster characters otherwise. They just run circles around him and combo him to hell.

I don't see why we couldn't give at least a couple of his attacks limited armor against weaker attacks in addition to movement speed buffs. Bowser is proof enough that this wouldn't make a character overpowered. It's at least worth testing out imo.

Unless I'm missing something: Bowser only has his Tough Guy armour. That barely qualifies as armour, which is good because his dash speed isn't exactly horrible. He has intangible tilts but that's still not armour, you can still stop him if you hit his body past his limbs during those moves.

And assuming this patch isn't setting out to completely change character weaknesses... Ganondorf is supposed to not be able to keep up with faster characters. Speed boosts would have to be very minor if any and again, not combined with any type of worthwhile armour. What he does in his game series is 100% irrelevant.

Go the Bowser route instead: make parts of his limbs intangible on some of his moves. Like say, the lower half of his legs during Uair, Nair, and Dtilt.

 

[Deleted member]

ElectroLightning suggested a run speed of 1.312 for Ganon, which is Dr. Mario's dash speed. I think that'd keep his slow, hard hitting archetype while allowing him to catch up to other characters better.

 

[Radical Larry]

ElectroLightning suggested a run speed of 1.312 for Ganon, which is Dr. Mario's dash speed. I think that'd keep his slow, hard hitting archetype while allowing him to catch up to other characters better.

Then he certainly would need Doctor Mario's aerial speed then.

 

[ElectroLightning]

Then he certainly would need Doctor Mario's aerial speed then.

No, just no...