Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Are there any plans of bringing back wavedashing and L-canceling?

No.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I feel that Wario is overall a pretty solid fighter, but I personally think he's lacking in a few of his moves that keep him from moving to the top.
So personally, this is what I would like to see for "Bad-Mario":

Spoiler: Waahahahahahaha!

• Jab 1: Hitbox Active 8-9 < 5-6 (Or Base Dmg: 4 < 6.45) (This is so he gets more use from his jab since it's overall not safe of shield or in neutral)

• Ftilt (All Angles): Hitbox Active 12-15 < 10-15 AND Base Dmg: 14 on all active frames and angles
• Usmash: FAF 58 < 53
  
• Dsmash: Hitbox Active: 18-27 (Sour Spot/Late: 28-36) < 13-22 (23-31) (Or replace sour spot hitboxes with new sweet spot hitboxes)
  
• Nair: Hitbox Active: 4 < 3-4 AND KGB: 100 < 135
  
• Corkscrew (Final Hit): Base Knockback 60 < 85

(These gives Wario a bit more kill potential while still fairly limiting it)

• Utilt: Hitbox Active: 12-14 < 7-10 (Or FAF: 36 < 30) (Utilit is one of Wario's most unused move,this to get it to work as a better anti-air while still limiting it)

• Fair (Sour Spot/Late): Hitbox Active 7-17 < 7-20
• Uair: FAF 47 < 39

(These changes give Wario more time to act out of them and protection, giving him a slightly better defense)

 

[Deleted member]

Why would you make Zard Bair safer and rock smash do more damage?

One does 16% and is safe on block while outranging almost every aerial in the game and killing sub 100% easily.

The other can already potentially do 30% and super armor a ton of things.

I assume this was in response to me, in which case I ask that you read the very top part of my post again. I was not suggesting that each character should be getting every buff I listed. I was merely compiling a list of all the ways characters have been nerfed in the transition between Brawl and Smash 4. Getting the info together in one place makes it easier to see what each character could potentially benefit from just by regaining what they lost.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I assume this was in response to me, in which case I ask that you read the very top part of my post again. I was not suggesting that each character should be getting every buff I listed. I was merely compiling a list of all the ways characters have been nerfed in the transition between Brawl and Smash 4. Getting the info together in one place makes it easier to see what each character could potentially benefit from just by regaining what they lost.

Regardless I would think it would be better to just look in context of this fake rather than comparing to past ones.

 

[Deleted member]

If that's what you think, then feel free to ignore the info I posted. I, however, disagree. There are quite a few nerfs that I feel were unnecessary, especially to characters who were already mediocre.

Kirby is a perfect example of a character who would benefit from being made closer to his Brawl counterpart, where he had more range, slightly better air mobility, and a Down Throw that could combo. I hardly think those changes would break the character.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

My main problem with Kirby is how slow his air mobility is. Final Cutter does not offer him much horizontal movement, so you'd think that you want to conserve those mid-air jumps as much as possible, which is hard when Kirby's air speed is a weak 0.8.

While doing my attribute tests, I raised Kirby's air speed to 1.04, which definitely helps him conserve his mid-air jumps.

Of course, I also nerfed Meta Knight's air speed to 0.8, but I also decreased his falling speed to 1.56 so that he would fall at a slower pace. The air speed nerf reason is obviously because of Meta Knight's diverse recovery move options, which can counter the weak air speed.

Anyway, while I know that fighters with multiple mid-air jumps tend to have weak air speed attributes to balance them out, some of those characters have recovery moves that do not offer much if any horizontal distance, which is a problem that Kirby really suffers from.

 

[Eugene Wang]

This is a daily reminder that mobility plays a large factor in a character's ability to combo, and thus to rack up damage and kill. Double check what combos you open up and close down whenever you modify mobility.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree that Kirby definitely needs an increase to his Air Speed, but increasing it to 1.04 might be too much. I probably wouldn't go above 0.95 at the most.

I also don't think Meta Knight needs any nerfs. He's not overpowering at all. In fact I would highly discourage nerfing any aspect of any character at this point. The focus should be on improving those who are worse off.

 

[JosePollo]

If I may...

A few of these are more QoL (hitboxes matching animations, especially) than significant buffs, but when I did decide to buff something I made sure to also slightly weaken another aspect of the attack so it wouldn't be all JUST buffs.

Spoiler: A/S-tier Lucas

Spoiler: Attributes

Weight: 94 (tied with Ness and Sonic)
Run speed: 1.5 (tied with Ike, Luigi, and Wario)
Walk speed: 0.85 (between Bowser–0.858–and Wario–0.847)
Air speed: 1.1 (tied with Captain Falcon, Cloud, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, and Sheik)
Fall speed: 1.37 (between Bowser–1.39–and Zelda–1.35)
Air acceleration: 0.085 → 0.9 (tied with Falco, Ness, and Pikachu)

• Gives greater burst movement when wavebouncing or B-reversing a PK Fire or Magnet. Also helps Lucas by making it easier for him to switch direction mid-air to mix up his landing when above an opponent.

Gravity: 0.09 (tied with R.O.B, Sonic, and Wii Fit Trainer)
Jumpsquat: 5 frames
Soft/hard landing lag: 2/5 frames

Spoiler: Jab 1

Changes:

• IASA: frame 20 → 18
  • Makes for more lenient jab cancels to help in CQC.
• Transition to jab 2: frame 7 (jab 2 starts frame 8)
• Jab 1 loop: frame 19 → 11 (jab 1 starts frame 12)
  • Greatly increases the amount of Jab 1's that Lucas can produce per second to a more reasonable number.

Spoiler: Jab 2

Changes:

• IASA: frame 20 → 18
• Transition to jab 3: frame 7 (jab 3 starts frame 8)
• Jab 1 loop: 19 → 11 (jab 1 starts frame 12)
• 2.0% → 2.5% damage
  • Produces slightly more hitstun, boosting Lucas's CQC by giving him more lenient jab cancels.

Spoiler: Jab 3

Changes:

• IASA: frame 30
• 4.0% → 3.0% damage
  • Slightly reduces the damage of the full jab combo from 8.5% to 8.0%.
• Launch angle 48° → 45°
  • A slightly more horizontal angle can give better stage control.
• 60 BKB/80 KBG → 42 BKB/90 KBG
  • For less overall reward off of committing to a full jab combo.

Spoiler: Dash attack

Changes:

• IASA: frame 39 → 34
  • Cooldown reduction should help a sourspotted hit combo a bit better at low percents.
• Sourspot active 15-16 → 14-15; sweetspot active 14-17 (split into a clean and late hit: 14-15, 16-17)
  • This is mainly to match the PSI animation during the attack. The PSI hexagons start on frame 14, then fade out on frame 18. Coincidentally, this also helps Lucas's dash attack punish rolls more easily due to having more active frames
• Sourspot: launch angle 75° → 80°
  • A more vertical angle helps keep opponents nearby.
• Sourspot: 60 BKB/76 KBG → 50 BKB/69 KBG
  • For increased comboability.
• Sourspot: electric effect (0x3) → normal “hit” effect (0x0)
  • This is mostly a flavor change. Lucas is hitting with his hand, not with the PSI energy, so it's kind of weird that it still zaps the opponent.
• Sweetspot: clean launch angle 46° → 40°
  • Helps boost the killing power of Lucas's dash attack (which is basically a running smash attack when sweetspotted) by lowering the launch trajectory of a struck opponent and therefore reducing the distance they have to travel to reach the blast zone.
• Sweetspot: 60 BKB/70 KBG → 50 BKB/81 KBG.
  • More growth = more kill potential. With the new values a sweet spotted dash attack produces 160 units of knockback at 100% vs. Cloud as opposed to the former 155.
• Sweetspot: hitbox size 5.8 → 6.0 clean
• Sweetspot: clang=0x1 → 0x0
  • Almost all of his electric PSI hitboxes are unclankable.

Hitbox: ID|Active|Bone|Damage|Angle|Knockback|Size|Location|Effect|Hitlag|SDI|Clank|Rebound
Late hitbox: ID=0x1|16-17|0x0|10.5%|361°|50.0 BKB 81.0 KBG|5.7|x=0.0 y=5.5 z=14.5|0x3|1.0|1.0|No|No

Spoiler: Forward tilt

Spoiler: Angled upwards

Changes:

• IASA: frame 26 → 24
• Active: 7-10 → 6-9
  • Sourspot: 6-7
    • Now only active at the furthest extension of Lucas's arm.
  • Sweetspot: 6-7 clean, 8-9 late
    • The PSI hexagons oscillate twice (hence 6-7, 8-9) before dissipating.
• Sweetspot (clean & late): 30 BKB/75 KBG → 34 BKB/80 KBG
  • Slightly better kill potential while being a bit safer on-hit at low percents.
• Sweetspot:
  • Clean: hitbox size 4.4 → 4.5
  • Late: hitbox size 4.2
• Sweetspot:
  • Y=9.0 early, shifts to 9.7 late; an upward movement of 0.7 units
  • Z=8.5 early, shifts to 9.2 late; a forward movement of 0.7 units
    • The PSI hitbox moves diagonally upward, following the movement of the PSI particles.

Spoiler: Regular

Changes:

• IASA: frame 26 → 24
• Active: 7-10 → 6-9
  • Sourspot: 6-7
    • Now only active at the furthest extension of Lucas's arm.
  • Sweetspot: 6-7 clean, 8-9 late
    • The PSI hexagons oscillate twice (hence 6-7, 8-9) before dissipating.
• Sweetspot (clean & late): 30 BKB/75 KBG → 34 BKB/80 KBG
  • Slightly better kill potential while being a bit safer on-hit at low percents.
• Sweetspot:
  • Clean: hitbox size 4.4 → 4.5
  • Late: hitbox size 4.2
• Sweetspot:
  • Z=9.5 early, shifts to 10.2 late; a forward movement of 0.7 units
    • The PSI hitbox moves forward, following the movement of the PSI particles.

Spoiler: Angled downwards

Changes:

• IASA: 26 → 24
• Active 7-10 → 6-9
  • Sourspot: 6-7
    • Now only active at the furthest extension of Lucas's arm.
  • Sweetspot: 6-7 clean, 8-9 late
    • The PSI hexagons oscillate twice (hence 6-7, 8-9) before dissipating.
• Sweetspot: 30 BKB/75 KBG → 34 BKB/80 KBG
  • Slightly better kill potential while being a bit safer on-hit at low percents.
• Sweetspot
  • Clean: hitbox size 4.4 → 4.5 early
  • Late: hitbox size 4.2
• Sweetspot:
  • Y=1.0 early, shifts to 0.3 late; a downward movement of 0.7 units.
  • Z=8.5 early, shifts to 9.2 late; a forward movement of 0.7 untis.
    • The PSI hitbox moves forward, following the movement of the PSI particles.

Spoiler: Up tilt

Changes:

• IASA: frame 37 → 34
  • Reduced cooldown help up tilt's ability to combo into other things at very low percents.
• 1st hit: hitboxes active 4 → 3-4
• 1st hit: 1.5% → 2.0% damage
• 1st hit: clang=0x0 → 0x1 (transcendent → clankable; rebound stays 0x0)
  • These three changes cause the side hitboxes to "trample" hitboxes of 11.0% damage or less when they clank. Useful in a situation where you clank jabs with someone due to most jabs being frame 3 or 4.
• 2nd hit: 50 BKB/100 KBG → 38 BKB/115 KBG
  • More combo potential early while killing at a slightly lower percent (not remotely close to Diddy Kong up tilt-tier, though).
• 2nd hit, hitbox 0x1: normal “hit” effect (0x0) → electric (0x3)
  • More of an aesthetic change than anything.
• 2nd hit, late: 50 BKB/100 KBG → 38 BKB/115 KBG
  • Again, more aesthetic than mechanical. Basically to maintain equal knockback values between the clean and late hits.

Spoiler: Down tilt

Changes:

• IASA: frame 16
• Hitbox 0x0: launch angle 76° → 80°
• Hitbox 0x0: 18 BKB → 20 BKB
• Hitbox 0x1: launch angle 40° → 45°
• Hitbox 0x1: 10 BKB → 15 BKB
• Hitbox 0x2: 8 BKB → 10 BKB
  • All of these are basically just to pop the opponent slightly farther up into the air when hit; a rather minute change that should help Lucas's CQC mix-ups.

Spoiler: Forward smash

Changes:

• IASA: 47 → 55
  • Cooldown increased due to a sizable buff in kill power when tippered.
• Charge: frame 8
• Reflective: 10-19 → 9-21
  • Now reflective immediately after the charge frame, and up until the action trail of the swing disappears completely.
• Sweetspot: 15.0% → 16.0% damage
• Sourspot: 50 BKB/88 KBG → 36 BKB/90 KBG
• Sweetspot: 50 BKB/88 KBG → 36 BKB/98 KBG
  • Damage and knockback changes to buff the kill power of a tippered hit while nerfing a sourspotted hit.

Spoiler: Up smash

Oh boy, changes:

• IASA: 99 → 95
  • To accomodate reduced start-up.
• Invincible: 1-4 → 1-6
  • Provides a more lenient window to successfully perform up smash parries.
• Charge: frame 5 → 7
  • To keep the charge frame outside of the extended invincibility window.
• Intangibility (head): 15-29 → 8-25
  • Reduces Lucas's effective hurtbox to just his trunk and stubby limbs. The intangibility window starts immediately after the charge frame and up to the frame before the first strong blast of PSI energy.
• Shockwave hitboxes: active 28 → 24
  • Start-up decreased by four frames.
• Shockwave hitboxes: launch angle 110° → 130°
• Shockwave hitboxes: 110 FKB/90 KBG → 155 FKB/100 KBG
  • Both these changes add up to a stronger pulling effect when hit by the attack's shockwave.
• Shockwave hitboxes: Y=5.0 → Y=2.5
  • And this allows the shockwave hitboxes to hit ledge-hanging opponents the way the in-game tip suggest, but which doesn't actually happen in practice.
• New hitbox added: 0x0 (all subsequent hitboxes would have to shift ID upward by 1)

Hitbox: ID|Active|Bone|Damage|Angle|Knockback|Size|Location|Effect|Hitlag|SDI|Clank|Rebound
PK Love: ID=0x1|frame 26|0x0|21.0%|95°|50.0 BKB 80.0 KBG|5.0|x=0.0 y=14.0 z=0.0|0x3|1.3|1.0|No|No

In the same location as the size 12.0 PSI hitbox, meaning it's going to be completely overlapped. Opponents pulled in by the shockwave hitboxes probably won't be hit by this very powerful hitbox unless they're already standing in position to get hit by it. This is mostly for when a Lucas player is able to get some kind of aerial read on the their opponent. Landing this 1-frame hitbox is going to most likely lead to an early stock.

• Hitbox active frame changes:
  • 1st stage: 30-32 → 26-30
  • 2nd stage: 33-37 → 31-35
  • 3rd stage: 38-42 → 36-40
  • 4th stage: 43-47 → 41-45
  • 5th stage: 48-52 → 46-50
    • An increase of 2 frames to the overall window of active frames during the attack (the very last flicker of PSI particles way up at the top).
• All hitboxes: 77 KBG → 80 KBG; BKB changes:
  • 1st stage: 48 → 50
  • 2nd stage: 42 → 45
  • 3rd stage: 37 → 40
  • 4th stage: 32 → 35
  • 5th stage: 27 → 30
    • Knockback changes to better reward connecting with such a slow, unsafe, and committal attack.
• All hitboxes: Clang=0x1 → 0x0; Rebound=0x1 → 0x0
  • Set to transcendent, as with all his other electric PSI hitboxes.

Spoiler: Down smash

Changes:

• IASA: frame 60
• Charge: frame 6
• Data bit “unk_7698BB42(0x0, 0x2a)” removed
  • This is presumably the code in the data the prevents down smash from being able to hit the same target more than once.
• 2nd hit: hitbox size 9.8 → 10.0

Spoiler: Neutral aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 45 → 38
  • Less aerial cooldown for increased combo potential.
• Landing lag: 13 → 12 frames
• Auto-cancel: starting frame 37 → frames 1-4, then starting frame 37
  • I'm refraining for suggesting that n-air should auto-cancel due to just how good an attack it would become if it did. It'd become downright spammable.
• 1st hitbox: active 7-23 → 5-21
  • Thanks to an early auto-cancel that lasts until the first hitbox becomes active, however, n-air becomes a viable mash-out during faux-combos since landing before frame 5 while mashing would buffer a frame-2 jab instead of incurring landing lag. Connecting with the hitbox would possibly reverse the combo situation against the opponent.
• 1st hitbox: 2.0% → 1.2% damage
• 1st hitbox: 20 BKB/70 KBG → 38 BKB/60 KBG
• 1st hitbox: hitbox size 5.3 → 5.5
  • These three changes help n-air more reliably connect the multi-hits together, though it's still very much possible to escape if the Lucas player doesn't actively follow the oppnent's SDI thoughout. A 2.0 SDI modifier will do that.
• 1st hitbox: 1.0 → 0.8 hitlag
  • Safe enough on-shield to stop Lucas from being shield-grabbed while in the middle of his attack.
• 1st hitbox: Re-hit=0x5 → 0x4 (hits the target again every 5 → 4 frames)
  • Can now hit a maximum of 5 times: on frames 5, 9, 13, 17, and 21. That's one more hit of shield pressure and, with the damage decrease, brings the damage from 12.0% max to 10.0%.
• Final hit: active 26 → 24
• Final hit: 140 → 115 KBG
  • Significantly widens the percentage window where n-air can combo into other attacks.
• Final hit: 2.0 → 1.5 hitlag
  • For an overall faster n-air experience.

Spoiler: Forward aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 42 → 40
• Landing lag: 12 → 15 frames
  • Increased due to a significantly more useful auto-cancel window.
• Auto-cancel: frame 1, then starting frame 38 → starting frame 27
  • Auto-cancels off of a short hop, the first time Lucas's legs come together during the animation.
• Sourspot active 9-10 → 7-8 clean, 9-10 late; sweetspot active 9-12 → 7-10
  • A start-up decrease of 2 frames.
• Sourspot damage and knockback changes:
  • Clean: 9.0% damage; 10 BKB/100 KBG → 20 BKB/80 KBG
  • Late: 6.0% damage; 7 BKB/100 KBG → 10 BKB/80 KBG
• Late sourspot: hitbox size 6.6 → 6.3
• Late sourspot: Y=1.0 → 3.0
  • All these sourspot changes incorporate the "phantom" sourspot in the data while maintaining the current f-air mechanically intact, though slightly buffed; it's now actually possible for a late f-air to yield a sourspotted hit.
• Sweetspot: launch angle 46° → 361°
  • Lowers the aerial trajectory of the PSI hitbox by 1° while giving it the ability to jab-lock opponents under 42% damage.
• Sweetspot: 97 KBG → 100 KBG

Spoiler: Back aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 40 → 36
• Landing lag: 15 frames → 20 frames
  • Increased to compensate for the faster aerial cooldown.
• Auto-cancel: frames 1-2, then starting frame 39 → starting frame 35
• Inner sourspot: 9.0% → 9.5%
• Inner sourspot: 30 BKB → 20 BKB
  • The combination of decreased cooldown, slightly higher damage and lower base knockback slightly widen the rather small combo window of sourspotted back air.
• Inner sourspot: X=0.0 → X=-1.5
• Meteor/over-lapped hitbox: X=4.5 → X=3.5
  • • Hitboxes moved closer to Lucas's body in order to give hitbox 0x3 more room to connect.
• Outer sourspot: 361° → 0° angle
  • Makes back air a deadly edge-guarding tool where missing a clean meteor still results in hitting with a semi-spiking hitbox.

Spoiler: Up aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 46 → 32
  • Actionable in the air before Lucas lands from his short hop.
• Landing lag: 12 → 10 frames
• Auto-cancel: frame 1, then starting frame 38 → 1-5, then starting frame 24
  • These changes make up air Lucas's fastest aerial, overall. Also gives him a decent A-landing tool (if you don't know what "A-landing" is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbC_nNAMYsU)
• Bone=0x0 → 0x13 (head)
  • Instead of happening in one specific spot above Lucas, the hitbox now follows the arcing motion of his head. This clashes visually with the current animation, so the puff of dust that happens roughly where the hitbox is would have to be changed for an action trail somehow.
• Active 7-9 → 6-9
  • The hitbox is active on the frame Lucas thrusts his head forward and disappears once his head loses its forward momentum.
• 13.0% → 11.0% damage
  • Nerfed damage to compensate for the massive boost in utility.
• Size 5.2 → 5.0, X=5.0
  • Diameter-wise, starts from about Lucas's chin all the way up to the tip of his spiky pompadour.
• Hitlag: 1.1 → 1.0
  • Due to the decrease in damage.

Spoiler: Down aerial

Changes:

• IASA: frame 57 → 50
• Landing lag: 25 frames
• Auto-cancel: starting frame 47 → starting frame 40
  • Cooldown decrease to match the faster hitbox loops.
• Hitbox loop: starts on frame 10 → 8 and loops every 8 → 6 frames
  • Active frame changes: 10-12, 18-20, 26-28 → 8-10, 14-16, 20-22
• Hitbox loop:
  • Lower hitbox (0x0): 42 BKB/10 KBG → 50 BKB/5 KBG
  • Upper hitbox (0x1): 20 FKB/100 KBG → 30 FKB/100 KBG
  • Upper hitbox (0x1): Y=1.0 → 2.0
    • These changes, combined with faster hitbox loops, should hopefully allow dair to more reliably link all four hits together no matter the percent. A 366° angle would be stupidly good on this attack, so I don't want to go that route in order to fix d-air.
• Final hit: active 34-35 → 26-28
• Final hit, hitbox 0x0: hitbox size 6.9 → 7.0

Spoiler: Z aerial

Changes:

• Clean hitbox: size 2.3 → 2.5
• Late hitbox: size 2.0 → 2.5
  • Z-air's already got a pretty small hitbox, but it gets smaller as it goes along, too?
• Both hitboxes: 1.0 → 0.8 hitlag

Spoiler: Grabs

• All grabs: Add a grab box right in front of Lucas to cover the dead zone at point blank before the between his body and where the rope snake's grab box becomes active. 12-13 for standing and pivot grab, 14-15 for dash grab.

Spoiler: Throws

Forward throw:

• IASA: frame 53 → 55
• 10.0% → 8.0% damage
• Launch angle 48° → 50°
• 80 BKB/71 KBG → 52 BKB/100 KBG
  • Damage lowered and base knockback lowered, launch trajectory raised by 2°, but knockback growth increased to counteract all the nerfs. Despite 100 KBG, it still kills only slightly earlier than previously.

Back throw:

• IASA: frame 53 → 55
• 10.0% → 8.0% damage
• Launch angle 41° → 40°
• 80 BKB/71 KBG → 52 BKB/100 KBG
  • Same as with forward throw.

Up throw (ebola back throw re-incarnate):

• IASA: frame 56 → 60
• 10.0% → 12.0% damage
• Launch angle 90° → 80°
• 78 BKB/69 KBG → 10 BKB/102 KBG
  • Made a more legitimate kill throw. Should start to kill at around 120%, down from the 140% average it's at now. The angle change is so that up throw and forward throw can serve as DI mix-ups for each other at kill percentage.

Down throw:

• IASA: frame 50
• Target thrown on frame 41 → 40
• 6.5% → 5.5% damage
• Launch angle 80° → 105°
• 78 BKB/51 KBG → 90 BKB/40 KBG
  • Much better for comboing, as it keeps opponents in around the same airspace for longer periods of time. Another reason for the big kill power nerf to up air, but you don't want to be caught by Lucas's down throw if he's facing away from the ledge as it can probably lead to a down throw back air if you DI incorrectly.

Spoiler: PK Freeze

Changes:

• Article: 80 BKB/21 KBG → 60 BKB/38 KBG
  • Lower BKB for more combo ability early, with higher KBG allow it to kill under 200% fully charged. Still PK Freeze, though.

Spoiler: PK Fire

Changes:

• IASA: frame 53 → 50
• Projectile generated: frame 21 → 18
  • Not much to explain. 3 less frames can make all the difference.

Spoiler: PK Thunder

Changes:

• Grounded PK Thunder IASA: frame 70 → 40
  • Drastically reduced cooldown when using Lucas's slow as molasses PK Thunder on-stage. I don't understand what about his PK Thunder warrants that much end lag. Ness's PK Thunder is faster, deadlier, and much better at juggling, yet he can just rapid fire them like it's no-one's business.

Spoiler: PSI Magnet

Start-up:

• 9 frames; absorb begins frame 10 → 7 frames; absorb begins frame 8

Hold:

Hitbox: ID|Bone|Damage|Angle|Knockback|Size|Location|Effect|Hitlag|SDI|Clank|Rebound|Other properties
Windbox: ID=0x0|0x0|0.0%|180°|5.0 FKB 100.0 KBG|10.5|x=0.0 y=6.3 z=12.0|0x0|0.0|0.0|No|No|Unblockable

This is basically going to slowly pull opponents into where the release hitbox happens.

Release:

• IASA: frame 20 → 12

Reduced start-up and cooldown to make this an overall better move to actually combat things that it's supposed to combat. The windbox addition is rather inconsequential (just something I thought would be pretty cool--Lucas just sucking things into a vortex) but can have niche use if, say, you get a jab lock vs. a character with poor recovery. The windbox guarantees they're in the right position to get hit once you release the magnet and now they're off-stage in a very unfavorable position (under Lucas, where he can edge guard with a well-placed back air or an escape read into a down air.)

If I were to reasonably change I would:

• Keep Jab as it is in patch 1.1.6
• Decrease endlag in Side Tilt, and Slightly for Up Tilt.
• Decrease endlag in Dash attack
• Decrease endlag in FSmash, and DSmash.
• Up Smash's endlag was always reasonable to me, so I would keep it the same in regards to the endlag. I would however, slightly increase the active frames of USmash, and also fix where if Palutena uses up smash and gets hit as soon a the pillar comes out, the opponent would go right past it.
• Keep DThrow as it is in 1.1.6. (I'm indifferent to the other throws, so I'll let you be the judge.)
• Slightly decrease the endlag in Reflect. Not as fast as you did in your patch 1.1.7, but not as slow as 1.1.6. Same goes for Auto Reticle.
  
• As for Warp, I heard other Pallys want it to have invisible start-up. So I guess that's a start. I'm personally indifferent. Just as long as I can still Warp cancel, I'm fine.
• Bair, Fair, Uair, and Dair should stay the same. And the reason why I even say leave Uair alone is for the same reasons as USmash, it was reasonable, considering it's kill potential. Besides, a Palutena player really shouldn't be using Uair as a combo move anyway. It's always best as a combo finisher. (Like DThrow > Nair > Uair)
• Which brings me to Nair, just slightly decrease endlag, making it a slightly better combo move.

These are just changes I could see making her more competitively viable, while at the same time not making her ridiculous. Despite it being a mod, I wouldn't mind discussing these things.

Best change for good ol' Pally would be for Super Speed and Lightweight to become her standard side and down specials, tbh. As for up smash, instead of having the pillar of light and its hitbox attached to her animation you could turn it into its own transcendent kind of projectile that she generates on whatever frame you want up smash to happen (kinda like how Villager's f-smash works). It would require some tricky programming, but it would fix the annoying problem of the pillar's hitbox simply vanishing after she gets hit out of the animation.

Also, kinda random, but I'd give the windboxes on f-smash and down smash a couple more active frames to better simulate rushing wind. Maybe something like:

• F-smash windboxes active: 20-25, 26-31 → 20-26, 27-34
• Down smash windboxes active: 20-27 → 20-30

Something small like that. Also, reducing the landing lag on nair from 20 to like 12 or 13 frames opens up some interesting mix-up potential in falling nair, especially with a faster jab.

 

[Ax^2]

Give sonic's aerials reduced lag tbh. Espesially bair and nair. I know what you're thinking but hear me out ok?

This will prevent cancer camping and give birth to aggro sonic, like, truly aggro sonic. He would be able to approach more instead of running away from you. As it is now sonic has very limited approach options and almost all of them are unsafe. He relies on properly baiting out a reaction and punishing. Thats why a "true, good" sonic will never approach and will instead wait for you to come in. Which sucks for 80% of the cast.

So...

-brawl bair (basically quicker with less end lag)
-fair with less landing lag (aka auto cancel)
-slightly quicker tilts

As a trade off, you could nerf damage output slightly or give smashes a bit more lag to compensate. Or nerf homing attack to the ground. I dunno, i know that rushdowns have attacks with less damage as a trade off for speed of attacks (except fox...), but at this point just reducing landing lag and increasing the speed of sonic's tilts by a few frames would completely change his core playstyle. He would now have safe approaches and not need to camp. Just think a faster fox.

......
Wait. Thats equally or even more cancerous than b4...

***.


Well i dont know tell me what you think about this. I always felt that sonic should be a true rushdown character than a bait/camp character. They put all that speed to waste. AND sonic is impatient by nature in his games, his current playstyle doesnt reflect that. You need patience to play sonic optimally right now (alot of it if your opponent camps to because sonic struggles HARD approaching in that situation). If he does get these buffs, then his aggro playstyle can still be beat by a camper/zoner like samus, link, marth etc. Cause unlike other rushdowns, he doesnt have a projectile that can force an approach or a reflector.


Also on a side note to the modder. Please please dont get rid of footstooling. That made this game unique and is actually a good mechanic as you can pull off incredible combos with the right characters and tbh any off stage footstool was recoverable so long as you were smart about recovery (not wasting your jump... very character specific btw lol). I do agree about rage, dumbest thing since dairy free cheese.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I also don't think Meta Knight needs any nerfs. He's not overpowering at all. In fact I would highly discourage nerfing any aspect of any character at this point. The focus should be on improving those who are worse off.

I fully agree with this. Don't nerf anyone, and don't buff characters that are already high tier (Meta Knight, Ness, Villager, etc).

Give sonic's aerials reduced lag tbh. Espesially bair and nair. I know what you're thinking but hear me out ok?

Sonic is already top tier and doesn't need any buffs. Rebalancing him with buffs and nerfs could ruin him for many Sonic players who like him the way he is now.

Also on a side note to the modder. Please please dont get rid of footstooling. [---] I do agree about rage, dumbest thing since dairy free cheese.

I don't think there's been any discussion about removing either, has there? I don't think this mod should change game mechanics in general, since that could mess up for people who want to play both tournaments and casuals (like me). If I play, say, Ness against buffed mid-tier characters in practice, I probably won't be (much) worse off in tournaments. If I play without rage or footstooling I will be worse off, though. This is also one of the reasons why I don't want nerfs in general. If I play vs a nerfed Sheik in practice I might be in a bad spot if I'm facing an unnerfed Sheik in a tournament, not to mention that Sheik players might dislike the mod if it nerfs one of their favorite characters.

I feel that Wario is overall a pretty solid fighter, but I personally think he's lacking in a few of his moves that keep him from moving to the top.

I don't think the purpose of this is to make every character top tier. In fact, I'd argue that high tier and high-mid tiers are more balanced overall than top tiers. Perhaps this is what you meant and I'm nitpicking, but, well, better safe that sorry, eh?

 

[Ax^2]

He said he wanted to remove footstooling and rage in his first post.

In theory the added sonic buffs wouldnt destroy his previous playstyle, it just wouldnt be the only optimal way to use him and you wont get as much out of it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I would also like to eventually fix/remove/adjust various things that are jank about Sm4sh (Ex: Rage, Footstooling, Glitches, etc) when the tools are available.

I think this is a mistake and here's my reasoning: This patch is highly unlikely to reach widespread use for tournaments (or even amongst casual Smash 4 players, chances are only a small subset will play it). Let's say I get this mod and play it at home for fun, and I later want to participate in a tournament. Well, I'd be worse off since I'm not used to dealing with rage or footstooling, and even the removal of glitches could prove problematic since I'd be less likely to adapt to them if they show up in a tournament.

I suppose you could upload multiple versions of the patch and let people decide for themselves if they want to keep rage, footstooling, and/or glitches in.

 

[Ax^2]

This is true. Its too early to make a conclusion, but i can see this happening if 1.1.6 is the last patch and this turning into the next PM if the balancing is done very very well in the future.

I personally just thought i should voice my opinion, but other than that im really just going to play the regular smash since I also go to tourneys regularly. The only mod im going to use is texture mods.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

I'll repeat what I said last time about suggestions, Don't worry. I've seen all of your suggestions. I just having been replying to suggestions, since that would cause more clutter, as it would just be the same message over and over (either looking into it when the character becomes relevant or asking why you think the changes are needed).

He said he wanted to remove footstooling and rage in his first post.

I never directly said I wanted to remove Rage and Footstooling. If possible, I'd like to reduce the effect of Rage or re-work it and make Footstooling able to be teched.

-snip

I get your point, and I'll be sure to put these into consideration if such things are possible.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I agree that Kirby definitely needs an increase to his Air Speed, but increasing it to 1.04 might be too much. I probably wouldn't go above 0.95 at the most.

I also don't think Meta Knight needs any nerfs. He's not overpowering at all. In fact I would highly discourage nerfing any aspect of any character at this point. The focus should be on improving those who are worse off.

Truthfully, a good portion of the air speed buffs that I inputted do focus on improving the recovery of certain fighters. The problem is, there's always a yin-yang dilemma when it comes to air speed buffs, as while you're helping to make a fighter's recovery better, you could also end up making the fighter's air game better as well; this is a rather large dilemma that Luigi is in, as he would appreciate the air speed buff to be less reliant on Green Missile for horizontal recoveries, but this would also make his air game better.

And from what I've seen myself, while buffing Rosalina's air speed to 1.25 does make her more mobile in the air, this can also increase her longevity, and make her a bigger air threat as well. And my reason for the buff was to compensate for how Launch Star can't deal any damage. It's once again, one of those yin-yang moments.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If that's what you think, then feel free to ignore the info I posted. I, however, disagree. There are quite a few nerfs that I feel were unnecessary, especially to characters who were already mediocre.

Kirby is a perfect example of a character who would benefit from being made closer to his Brawl counterpart, where he had more range, slightly better air mobility, and a Down Throw that could combo. I hardly think those changes would break the character.

The difference is context.

What worked in brawl may not work here. Kirby might be perfectly fine with those changes. Others though like readding gliding, upping damage on things, giving Diddy a second banana won't work with how smash 4 is set up.

For example giving Marth is melee range is a bad idea, there is a reason his sword has gotten shorter and shorter, because it was overbearing in past games with most of the cast.

I'n of the opinion to look at this game alone and figure out what should be changed here rather than using past games as a baseline.

 

[Furret24]

Are there any plans of bringing back wavedashing and L-canceling?

As far as I know, no. This is a balance mod of Smash 4, not Smash 4: Melee Edition. The game isn't balanced with these mechanics in mind, meaning we would have to go back and make a ton of changes to each character to make sure they aren't overtuned with these new mechinics.

And from what I've seen myself, while buffing Rosalina's air speed to 1.25 does make her more mobile in the air, this can also increase her longevity, and make her a bigger air threat as well. And my reason for the buff was to compensate for how Launch Star can't deal any damage. It's once again, one of those yin-yang moments.

The issue here would be that Launch Star is rarely used as an offensive attack anyway, so you would be comepensating a small nerf with significantly better aerial game, survivability, and making an already Top 5 character a much bigger threat overall. This would be like slightly increasing the ending lag on Cloud's up smash, but then increasing his air speed to 1.25 and making Climbhazzard always snap to the ledge.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The issue here would be that Launch Star is rarely used as an offensive attack anyway, so you would be comepensating a small nerf with significantly better aerial game, survivability, and making an already Top 5 character a much bigger threat overall. This would be like slightly increasing the ending lag on Cloud's up smash, but then increasing his air speed to 1.25 and making Climbhazzard always snap to the ledge.

The funny thing is, the only buff I gave to Cloud was to his weight. Limit Break already covers the speed boosts, so I saw no reason to touch Cloud's speed attributes at all.

 

[Deleted member]

The difference is context.

What worked in brawl may not work here. Kirby might be perfectly fine with those changes. Others though like readding gliding, upping damage on things, giving Diddy a second banana won't work with how smash 4 is set up.

For example giving Marth is melee range is a bad idea, there is a reason his sword has gotten shorter and shorter, because it was overbearing in past games with most of the cast.

I'n of the opinion to look at this game alone and figure out what should be changed here rather than using past games as a baseline.

First of all, I never mentioned adding gliding back in. All of the changes I listed dealt solely with character attributes, range, active frames, damage, and lag. I know that gliding would be A) too controversial and B) probably not even possible at this point, so I left it out. I'm not interested in adding or changing any gameplay mechanics.

Second of all, I never mentioned giving Diddy back his second banana. In fact, I never mentioned Diddy at all since he is already very good. All of the characters I listed are mid-tier and below on the current tier list.

Third of all, I never mentioned using Melee as a baseline for anything. The difference in gameplay between Melee and Smash 4 is much more significant than Brawl and Smash 4.

If you want to talk about context, then you should probably try to stick to the context of my actual post rather than bringing up a bunch of things I never even mentioned.

The fact remains that quite a few average/mediocre characters in Smash 4 could benefit from some of their previous Brawl data. Zelda, Kirby, Mr. Game and Watch, Marth, Falco are good examples. Again, I am not saying they should gain back everything, but I made the list to make it easier to pick and choose.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

I've got an update courtesy of @PHP and @Smoutebollen. This update is strictly for Palutena right now. Note, like the changes to Dr. Mario, these changes will not be public for some time.

Here's a changelist (provided by @Smoutebollen) of what's to come:

Spoiler

Attributes

Air Speed 0.91 -> 0.94

Jab, Dash, Tilts

Jab Startup 8 -> 6
Jab Hitbox duration 7-10 -> 6-9
Jab First Hit KBG 60 -> 50
Jab Final Hit BKB 55 -> 60

Dash FAF 52 -> 48
Dash H1 Damage 9/5 -> 10/5
Dash H1 BKB 70/60 -> 70/60
Dash H1 KBG 90/70 -> 85/70

Ftilt Start 17 -> 15
Ftilt H1 Hitbox duration 15-22 -> 14-22
Ftilt FAF 68 -> 58
Ftilt H1 Rehit - -> 4
Ftilt H1 Damage 6/4 -> 2
Ftilt H1 BKB 43 -> 40
Ftilt H1 KBG 65 -> 20
Ftilt H1 Angle 48 -> 366
Ftilt H1 SDI 1 -> 0.3
Ftilt H1 Hitlag 1 -> 1.1
Ftilt H2 Damage 6/4 -> 6
Ftilt H2 BKB 43 -> 50
Ftilt H2 KBG 100 -> 93
Ftilt Hitbox size 4.1/2.8 -> 4.3/3
Ftilt Hitbox location 5.5/-5.5 -> 5.4/-5.4

Utilt FAF 68 -> 60
Utilt First Hit Hitbox size 3/2 -> 3.2/2.2
Utilt Final Hit BKB 60 -> 40
Utilt Final Hit KBG 195 -> 220
Utilt Final Hit Upper Hitbox location 19 -> 19.2
Utilt Final Hit Hitbox size 3 -> 3.2

Dtilt Start 14 -> 10 (FAF: 40)
Dtilt Hitbox duration 10-20 -> 10-24
Dtilt Hitbox size 2.7/2.1 -> 2.8/2.2

Smashes

FSmash FAF 67 -> 64
FSmash Hitbox size 5.1/12 -> 5.6/12.5

USmash Startup 18 -> 16/17/18
USmash FAF 68 -> 66
USmash Hitbox Y location 20/48/65 -> 20/52/73

DSmash FAF 72 -> 68
DSmash Hitbox size 2.5/4/8 -> 3/4.5/8.5

Aerials

NAir Damage 1.7/5 -> 1.8/5
NAir Startup 5 -> 4
NAir FAF 52 -> 50
NAir Final Hit BKB 30 -> 25
NAir Final Hit KBG 180 -> 190
NAir Hitbox size 3.4/11 -> 3.6/11
NAir Hitbox location 6/-6 -> 5.8/-5.8

FAir Startup 9 -> 8
FAir FAF 45 -> 42
FAir Damage 9 -> 8
FAir BKB 31 -> 30
FAir KBG 92 -> 100

BAir ACancel 35 -> 34

UAir Damage 1/5 -> 1.25/5
UAir ACancel 64 -> 60

DAir FAF 59 -> 58.1
DAir Hitbox size 4/6.3 -> 4.1/6.3

Throws

BThrow BKB 65/60 -> 60/60
BThrow KBG 70/100 -> 80/100

UThrow FAF -4F

Default Specials

Neutral-B FAF 68 -> 64
Neutral-B Projectile damage 2.9 -> 3
Neutral-B Projectile KBG 42 -> 45

Side-B FAF 56 -> 52
Side-B Partial Body Invincibility - -> 7-10
Side-B Hit Hitbox size 6 -> 6.5
Side-B BKB 10 -> 45
Side-B KBG 70 -> 55
Side-B Reflect Barrier FKB 35 -> 40

Up-B Ground Startup/Invisible 16-31 -> 12-27
Up-B Air Startup/Invisible 16-31 -> 14-29

Down-B Counter Start 10-31 -> 8-29
Down-B Counter Hit BKB 40/20 -> 95 (sourspot removed)
Down-B Counter Hit KBG 75/65 -> 15 (sourspot removed)
Down-B Counter Hit Hitbox X location 9~20 -> 8~20
Down-B Counter Hit Hitbox size 7/9 -> 12
Down-B FAF 75 -> 72
Down-B Hit FAF 56 -> 46

Custom Specials

Neutral-B2 Frame multiplier before casting 1.2 -> 1.1
Neutral B2 Frame multiplier after projectile cast 1 -> 0.7 -> 0.6

Neutral-B3 Damage 1 -> 1.2
Neutral-B3 Frame multiplier at end 1 -> 0.7

Side-B2 Startup 30 -> 26

Side-B3 Startup 11 -> 10

Up-B2 Startup/Glide 16 -> 12

Up-B3 Ground Startup 11 -> 10
Up-B3 Air Startup 11? -> 8

Down-B3 Frame multiplier before casting 1.2 -> 1.4
Down-B3 Frame multiplier after casting 1.2 -> 0.8

 

[Zmac122]

Is there any instructions on how to set this up?

 

[KingJigglypuff]

-snip

No, as it's against the rules to tell others how to mod their systems. You'll have to search for it yourself.

 

[ElectroLightning]

No, as it's against the rules to tell others how to mod their systems. You'll have to search for it yourself.

How would other people know how to do YOUR thingy?

 

[Zerp]

How would other people know how to do YOUR thingy?

Not sure if I'm allowed to say where, so I'll avoid saying it since it's against the rules to directly tell you how, but there are a couple of dedicated modding sites that go over how to do this kind of stuff, you should be able to find everything you need to know by googling something like "how to mod a wii u".

 

[ElectroLightning]

Not sure if I'm allowed to say where, so I'll avoid saying it since it's against the rules to directly tell you how, but there are a couple of dedicated modding sites that go over how to do this kind of stuff, you should be able to find everything you need to know by googling something like "how to mod a wii u".

So I can't just download stuffs to a SD Card like Project M and be on my merry way?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So I can't just download stuffs to a SD Card like Project M and be on my merry way?

No, there are extra steps that need to be made, which can't be brought up here.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

About Wario
I don't think the purpose of this is to make every character top tier. In fact, I'd argue that high tier and high-mid tiers are more balanced overall than top tiers. Perhaps this is what you meant and I'm nitpicking, but, well, better safe that sorry, eh?

Yes my post was meant to as better way to balance Wario.
However my wording was definitely off, so I understand how you could of taken it that way.

My bad.

 

[Tofer Dallah]

I personaly think that Mii Swordfighter should get some buff too !

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

A few suggestions for Dedede:


- Revert DThrow knockback so it doesn't combo as well. Although I would love a kill confirm from a grab, I just don't think that's Dedede's style.
Down Throw:

• Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
• Throw KBG: 82 -> 65

- Reduce mobility:

• Air Mobility: 0.72 -> 0.69
• Walk Max Velocity: 1.08 -> 1.01
• Initial Run Velocity: 1.46 -> 1.36

- Increase the gordo reflect from 1% to 3%. You can check out the Dedede discussion boards for more justification on this, but essentially it boils down to the opponent should have to commit to a reflect, shield or dodge just like any projectile instead of just spamming a jab and getting the reflect. I honestly think it should be 6%, but non Dedede player's might complain that it's broken (It's not, you'll just have to shield or dodge the gordo instead of reflecting it, just like every other projectile, but also if you get the reflect, the gordo locks onto Dedede). Maybe try out 6% and then either tone it back or increase something like the reflect speed to keep it balanced.

- Increase shield damage to the crash down sweet spot of Super Dedede jump. This move can currently just be shielded and punished.

- Decrease the ending lag when Dedede swallows a projectile or give him health back for eating it.

- Remove the hit stun when someone is mashing after being swallowed by inhale. If you mash fast enough, not only do you get out, but Dedede cannot do the spit or move. Make this more like a grab, if the opponent mashes when grabbed, it doesn't prevent you from throwing or pummeling, it just reduces the amount of time you have to follow up with those actions.

My wish list that that isn't as realistic as the above, but I would love to see:
1. Up-B should break shields on the sweet spot crash down like bowser's Down-B (There is a hitbox that buries, make it break shields as well).
2. F-Air should spike on the tip of the hammer like Cloud's FAir.
3. Cut down the D-Air start up and ending lag and make the entire hammer spike, similar to Gannon's DAir.
4. Give jet hammer the ability to short hop.
5. Give jet hammer heavy armor when fully charged.
6. Decrease the end lag on a canceled UpB.

Here's something to keep in mind with future changes to Dedede:
Don't make him rely on grabs. He has tons of different, unique, and fun tools, let his play style revolve around those tools and using them properly. Also, his main kill strategy is reads, punishes and edge guarding so try to stay in the realm of that.

Here's a quote from the great @Soul Train on Dedede's play style and the gordo reflect:

You're right on about potential outcry against Gordo [buffs]. Lots of people would cry BROKEN/CHEESE/IMBA etc

And not without cause. But you have to ask two questions with buffs:

1. Is it balanced? Absolutely. A harder to reflect Gordo would immediately force all lighter characters (ie 80% of our bad matchups) to actually shield or play around the thing, like I don't know all other projectiles in the game. This would force Sheiks/Diddys etc to approach and prevent us from having the bloody 60+ frames necessary to get Gordo out. Now they're approaching, now D3's decent punish game would instantly start working better. I like. But even if we just dream: take away the whole Gordo reflecting mechanic, D3 would still be bottom tier. He just wouldn't lose AS HARD to the keepaway. But that's would honestly not fit the character as well, which is the next question.
2. The better question is: would this fit D3's character design? Not sure. To me, the Gordo reflect mechanic fits the King perfectly. Yes, framewise, it would be really easy to buff the frame data on our normals and call it a day - except that really wouldn't fit the character. D3 isn't meant to be stupid mobile. To me, D3 is more of a gimmicky character, one meant to take damage, trick opponents, and hit hard. It's just that all of our tricks (Gordo traps, fastfall Bair, Inhale, etc) are all beaten by really, really simple tools, and all require a ridiculous commitment. Buff our gimmicks - Gordo, Inhale, UpB, heck even Jet Hammer - and we have an even more hilarious D3. That's what I want.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

First of all, I never mentioned adding gliding back in. All of the changes I listed dealt solely with character attributes, range, active frames, damage, and lag. I know that gliding would be A) too controversial and B) probably not even possible at this point, so I left it out. I'm not interested in adding or changing any gameplay mechanics.

Second of all, I never mentioned giving Diddy back his second banana. In fact, I never mentioned Diddy at all since he is already very good. All of the characters I listed are mid-tier and below on the current tier list.

Third of all, I never mentioned using Melee as a baseline for anything. The difference in gameplay between Melee and Smash 4 is much more significant than Brawl and Smash 4.

If you want to talk about context, then you should probably try to stick to the context of my actual post rather than bringing up a bunch of things I never even mentioned.

The fact remains that quite a few average/mediocre characters in Smash 4 could benefit from some of their previous Brawl data. Zelda, Kirby, Mr. Game and Watch, Marth, Falco are good examples. Again, I am not saying they should gain back everything, but I made the list to make it easier to pick and choose.

Many of those were examples, not speaking for you.

I was saying why some of your ideas may not work.

 

[ElectroLightning]

A few suggestions for Dedede:


- Revert DThrow knockback so it doesn't combo as well. Although I would love a kill confirm from a grab, I just don't think that's Dedede's style.
Down Throw:

• Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
• Throw KBG: 82 -> 65

- Reduce mobility:

• Air Mobility: 0.72 -> 0.69
• Walk Max Velocity: 1.08 -> 1.01
• Initial Run Velocity: 1.46 -> 1.36

- Increase the gordo reflect from 1% to 3%. You can check out the Dedede discussion boards for more justification on this, but essentially it boils down to the opponent should have to commit to a reflect, shield or dodge just like any projectile instead of just spamming a jab and getting the reflect. I honestly think it should be 6%, but non Dedede player's might complain that it's broken (It's not, you'll just have to shield or dodge the gordo instead of reflecting it, just like every other projectile, but also if you get the reflect, the gordo locks onto Dedede). Maybe try out 6% and then either tone it back or increase something like the reflect speed to keep it balanced.

- Increase shield damage to the crash down sweet spot of Super Dedede jump. This move can currently just be shielded and punished.

- Decrease the ending lag when Dedede swallows a projectile or give him health back for eating it.

- Remove the hit stun when someone is mashing after being swallowed by inhale. If you mash fast enough, not only do you get out, but Dedede cannot do the spit or move. Make this more like a grab, if the opponent mashes when grabbed, it doesn't prevent you from throwing or pummeling, it just reduces the amount of time you have to follow up with those actions.

My wish list that that isn't as realistic as the above, but I would love to see:
1. Up-B should break shields on the sweet spot crash down like bowser's Down-B (There is a hitbox that buries, make it break shields as well).
2. F-Air should spike on the tip of the hammer like Cloud's FAir.
3. Cut down the D-Air start up and ending lag and make the entire hammer spike, similar to Gannon's DAir.
4. Give jet hammer the ability to short hop.
5. Give jet hammer heavy armor when fully charged.
6. Decrease the end lag on a canceled UpB.

Here's something to keep in mind with future changes to Dedede:
Don't make him rely on grabs. He has tons of different, unique, and fun tools, let his play style revolve around those tools and using them properly. Also, his main kill strategy is reads, punishes and edge guarding so try to stay in the realm of that.

Here's a quote from the great @Soul Train on Dedede's play style and the gordo reflect:

You want to nerf your main? Alright then, all the DDD mains will rage in 3.. 2..

 

[BJN39]

I'm gonna mention that the changes listed for Zelda's grabs are a little messy. Why would you remove just 1F of endlag from pivot grab? Aside being pointless, it deserves more endlag cut off than that. All of her grabs average 3-5F more endlag than other grabs and have far worse startup. The range is hardly compensation. Standing grab is also unlisted, despite needing endlag buffs just as badly as the other two.

all grab FAFs 38/47/45 -> 35/44/42 would make a lot more sense.

I also want to mention that increasing Zelda's DAir sweet-spot kbg from 65 to 105 is absolutely insane if you know how kb stat changes work. Her DAir already has almost comparable KB to Ganon's own DAir, and is among the stronger DAirs. It will already get the job done by ~45%.

Finally, reducing the endlag/autocancel of lightning kicks an arbitrary and small amount is nearly pointless. More important issues lie in the size of her LK sweet-spots and the KB of the sourspots.

    landing lag 23F/25F -> 20F/22F
    sweet-spot hitbox size 1.9 -> 2.4
    outermost sour-spot size 5.0 -> 6.0
sour-spots
    damage 4 -> 6
    bkb 5/5/5 -> 20/20/30
    kbg 80/80/96 -> 70/70/90

This set of changes would be equally if not more helpful versus a slight FAF improvement. the sour-spot sze improvement listed is an additional improvement I think would be nice for the LKs to have.

An immediately more effective way to de-lag LKs is to knock down the endlag. The auto-cancel is so late that it cannot be rationally improved for anything like a short-hop-auto-cancel. It also can't have its endlag lowered rationally in amount without being ineffective. (Melee and brawl's design would be hilariously out of place in SSB4, and an irrational design option) Her LKs are far better used on the way down as pokes than in air combat. Landing lag should be looked at first.

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

You want to nerf your main? Alright then, all the DDD mains will rage in 3.. 2..

No, I want to balance him and keep his play style what makes him fun. I'm guessing you didn't expand the quote or read the buffs that I suggested in conjunction with the removal of the mobility changes.

Here's the important part of the quote in case you don't want to scroll up to read it:
"Yes, framewise, it would be really easy to buff the frame data on our normals and call it a day - except that really wouldn't fit the character. D3 isn't meant to be stupid mobile. To me, D3 is more of a gimmicky character, one meant to take damage, trick opponents, and hit hard. It's just that all of our tricks (Gordo traps, fastfall Bair, Inhale, etc) are all beaten by really, really simple tools, and all require a ridiculous commitment. Buff our gimmicks - Gordo, Inhale, UpB, heck even Jet Hammer - and we have an even more hilarious D3. That's what I want."

I 100% want buffs, but I want the right buffs that preserve the unique identity of the character and allow for a diverse play style.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

-snip

Thanks for giving me your thoughts on the Zelda changes.

I believe when he suggested the said changes, he wanted the endlag to be near Brawl level, hence why a single Frame was taken off. I'll let him know about your criticisms and suggestions.

 

[Aaron1997]

Uptilt

• Hitbox size increased (cant tell how much because I'm not great at this lol)
• FAF 34 > 30

Down tilt

• Hitbox active 7-9 > 5-7

N-air

• Early hit BKB 20 > 40
• Early hit KBG 100 > 87
• Landing lag 12 > 10

F-air

• Damage 5.3 > 6.3
• BKB 7 > 10
• Landing lag 16 > 10

D-air

• Landing lag 20 > 15

Pac-jump

• BKB on all hits 40 > 50

Power Pellet

• KBG increased 108/66 > 120/78

Grab

• NEW Hitbox Active 10-45 / 20-39 / 25-33
• FAF 76 > 66

F-throw

• Damage 6 > 8
• Angle 58 > 62

B-throw

• KBG 61 > 70

Up-throw

• Damage 5 > 8
• KBG 100 > 94

D-throw

• Angle 45 > 50

I'm probably going over board but some of these need to happen. Like his grab of course. I think his F-air is awful for what its suppost to be. Its suppost to be somewhat like Sheiks F-air but its much much worse. These change are at not only fixing is grab but also improving his safety on shield.

 

[Doomis]

I tested both Zelda and Palutena. They feel much more viable now, but I agree with BJN39, Zelda's dair is way too powerful like this. It killed at around 30%. BJN39's suggestions would be really good in my oppinion!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You want to nerf your main? Alright then, all the DDD mains will rage in 3.. 2..

I'd like to say that no fighter should ever have to deal with an air speed value that's below 0.7. That's pretty much why I raised Dedede's air speed to 0.7.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You want to nerf your main? Alright then, all the DDD mains will rage in 3.. 2..

I wouldn't call toning down buffs (that are arguably still WIP) a nerf. He's still faster than on live.

 

[Tobb99]

I looked at the OP and there are changes I'd like to purpose:

Little Mac Side B: Make him not go into free-fall. I really feel bad for Mac not being able to use this move near the ledge. Make it more like Pit's Side-B but with less lag so he can recover from it.

Dark Pit Arrow: Make his arrows useful in some way. As of now, Pit's arrows are just purely superior to Dark Pit's. The damage doesn't matter much as they are so easy to dodge/shield. Maybe make them go faster, have less endlag, go farther or something.

Pit/Dark Pit: Kind of controversial, but it would be nice with some more differences between the two. They're practically the same. Just some slight differences, not any big at all.

Btw I really appreciate this project! It would be even better if we'd got some pro players here to give better opinions. I would also be useful for Nintendo if they're going to release more patches.