Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Frihetsanka]

snip

Yeah, the community tier list is not without its problems. I personally think it's the most accurate one out there right now, although I could see why some people disagree with that. Still, in general it does a pretty good job at dealing with low tiers, mid tiers, and high tiers.

As for specific characters: The Miis are supposed to be Guest XXXX. A lot of people probably voted for Guest 1111 though, so good characters like Mii Brawler ended up lower than they should've. Miis are tricky to rate.

Greninja: I'm personally on the fence. Either don't buff it at all or just buff it slightly.

Samus and Kirby: Both are tier 5 (like low-mid tier-ish) so they could use some buffs.

Luigi: I personally think Luigi is pretty good and that he'd get much more respect if it weren't for Mario. I don't think he really needs any buffs to be viable for casual play though, it'd have to be really small then.

Anyway, yeah. It'll be interesting to see if this probject can help some characters be more fun to play without breaking them.

 

[Bombchu Link]

• Dr. Tornado deals more damage: 8% -> 18%
• Dr. Tornado travels higher and takes less button presses to gain height
• Neutral attack deals more damage: 8.96% -> 13%
• Neutral aerial does more damage: 5.6% clean/8.96% late -> 7% clean/10% late
• Pummel does more damage: 3.64% -> 4%
• Back aerial does more damage: 13.44% clean/7.84% late -> 15% clean/8.5% late

I kind of stole most of these from the Unofficial Balance Committee... but they have some very nice ideas for how to make Doc a little better. I changed a few things and added some things of my own to give him a larger buff...

tornado is almost impossible to beat out and making it deal 20% would certainly make me afraid of him. this along with it going higher makes it to powerful for him to be more than a one trick pony. that throws pills.

Also a frame 2 Jab doing 13%? that's way to powerful.

And Bair does AC so you know; he's not suppose to be ryu.

These buffs would make Doc (more) annoying at best and only lose to fast characters like fox and falcon at worst that would trump his inability to keep players out.

Gannon, Bowser, Peach, DK, and Villager would be free with these buffs.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Also a frame 2 Jab doing 13%? that's way to powerful..

The problem with a lot of the Doc changes, are they are literally "give him what he had in Melee" buffs. While these are indeed buffs, damage output is universally lower than what it was in Melee, so a lot of Doc's buffs are indeed quite overpowering. I agree that his Jab doing 13% is a bit too much. 10% I would say would suit better.

4% on Doc's pummel seems a bit strong too. Any reasoning for this? His pummel damage is already one of the best, so this seems more like an "I want this" buff, rather than an "I need this" buff.

---

Speaking of which, I also want to touch on some Roy data:

Forward Air:

• Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 7
• Sweetspot Damage: 11 -> 11.5
• Autocancel: Frame >36 -> Frame >28

For a start, some of the data is wrong; His Fair comes out on Frame 10, not 8. Secondly, what is suggested would be insanely obnoxious and strong. Roy's Fair doing that damage, coming out on that frame, and AC'ing that early would give Roy not only a ridiculous combo move, akin if not better than Marth's old double Fair, but also an almost unparalleled approach option. I am going to leave my suggestion here.

• Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 9 or 8
• Sweetspot Damage: 11 -> 11.5
• Autocancel: Frame >36 -> Frame >30

Secondly, a lot of Roy's changes are very unneeded. Roy suffers from a lot of the same problems as Marth. Remember the Marth suggestions I posted? They were rather limited. I could have gone on and added a bunch of extra damages, or extra frames, or endlag reductions, and while they would help, they are not vital. Examples include:

• Jab changes: Roy's Jab is totally fine as it is. Marth's jab comes out on frame 5, Roy's does not need to come out 1 frame sooner.
• Side Tilt changes: 20° for a sourspot would be a bit ridiculous.
• Dtilt changes: For a start, the move is 7-8, not 7-9. Secondly, Dtilt functions perfectly with it's active frames, as does Marth's, so buffing it even 7-9, let alone 6-9 would be very uneeded. 7-9 at a minimum, but considering Marth does not need it, it seems pointless.
• Back Air damage: As an average, Roy's sweetspots deal very slightly less damage than Marth's, because his sweetspots are bigger and much easier to land. Marth's Back Air deals 12.5%, so why is Roy's dealing 13.5%? If anything, 12.5% would make more sense.
• Back Throw: Why are we gifting Roy another powerful throw? The data suggested looks a lot nicer when looking a the BKB, KBG and angle changes, but that's all it needs. Marth and Roy's throws all deal low damage. The other changes are all it needs.
• Dancing Blade 2, 3 and 4 damage: Roy's Double Edge Dance already deals more damage than Marth's, due to Roy getting far more sweetspots during the move due to the nature of the sweetspot placement. While I am not against the first hit's increased damage, as this would help stun opponents and link into the rest of the move better. However, Marth and Roy's Side B's are already some of the best dodge and general punishers in the game. Roy's does not need any extra damage in the slightest.

Everything else, I agree with. Put it this way; Roy struggles in a lot of areas similar to Marth. However, some of the changes suggested are not needed. I suggest either a re-think of Roy's changes, or at least add some extra changes to Marth (however, I am against this, as the characters only really need the vital things to make them good).

 

[Eugene Wang]

Roy has difficulty with shields, a problem Marth doesn't have. Spacing with sourspots, getting in and trying to read a shield drop, and grabbing for a bit of damage and a reset are all suboptional options against shields, but Roy has to choose between them.

A back throw buff makes sense in this light.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Roy has difficulty with shields, a problem Marth doesn't have. Spacing with sourspots, getting in and trying to read a shield drop, and grabbing for a bit of damage and a reset are all suboptional options against shields, but Roy has to choose between them.

A back throw buff makes sense in this light.

Marth also has a problem with shields. Marth has a sub par time against shields because his sweetspot is tough to space, unlike Roy's. Contrary to belief, Shield Breaker isn't good against a straight up shielding opponent, because it's too slow to start up, and uncharged, doesn't deal enough shield damage to be a threat. While risky, at the very least, Roy can Fsmash the opponent's shield, and if sweetspotted, does almost as much shield damage as a no charge Shield Breaker, while also being harder to punish due to hitlag modifiers and shield pushback. Roy also has better grab follow ups, where Marth has no real follow ups outside of below 10%.

However, I did suggest some Marth throw changes, so that should fix Marth's core problem with shields. Out of all the things you can do with their throws, damage should not be a priority though. Their throws are universally weak. I'm not against the BKB/KBG and Angle buffs to Roy's Bthrow, but the damage buff should be removed. It's like making Mewtwo's Fthrow deal 5% as opposed to it's 13%; it just doesn't fit with the design, because Mewtwo's throws are all meant to be powerful and damaging. Marth and Roy's have always been very weak in damage, likely because they have a fast pummel.

What you also have to realise is that the buffs suggested to Roy's Fair and Bair (notably, the AC buffs) would give Roy some ways to safely pressure shields, or safely approach/fade out from a shield. With Fair, Bair, the angle/BKB/KBG Back throw changes on Roy's side, and the Fair and F/Dthrow changes on Marth's side, both these characters would have a much easier time against shields. I'm only stating that Roy's Back Throw doesn't need the extra damage; it's angle and BKB/KBG changes would be enough and help a lot.

However, I'm also unsure why Back Throw needs a change anyway. It works like ZSS's Back Throw, in the fact that it can be used as a mix up and mindgames near the ledge. ZSS can do Bthrow into Flip Kick Spike due to wrong DI, and Roy's in the same fashon can lead into a Dair Spike or Bair for a KO. Considering Roy already has 2 throws he can mix up for combos anyway, this makes it incredibly hard for the opponent to DI the correct way in this situation. Personally, I'd keep Roy's Back Throw as it is, but whatever...

 

[Gigan X3]

OK, so after the changes, doing down tilt with Charizard and following up with up tilt makes him float back pretty much the distance that he usually covers when he backrolls which makes him extremely safe and good at poking haha! It's an interesting side effect that you guys might want to look into.

 

[kmpyj]

If I were to reasonably change I would:

• Keep Jab as it is in patch 1.1.6
• Decrease endlag in Side Tilt, and Slightly for Up Tilt.
• Decrease endlag in Dash attack
• Decrease endlag in FSmash, and DSmash.
• Up Smash's endlag was always reasonable to me, so I would keep it the same in regards to the endlag. I would however, slightly increase the active frames of USmash, and also fix where if Palutena uses up smash and gets hit as soon a the pillar comes out, the opponent would go right past it.
• Keep DThrow as it is in 1.1.6. (I'm indifferent to the other throws, so I'll let you be the judge.)
• Slightly decrease the endlag in Reflect. Not as fast as you did in your patch 1.1.7, but not as slow as 1.1.6. Same goes for Auto Reticle.
  
• As for Warp, I heard other Pallys want it to have invisible start-up. So I guess that's a start. I'm personally indifferent. Just as long as I can still Warp cancel, I'm fine.
• Bair, Fair, Uair, and Dair should stay the same. And the reason why I even say leave Uair alone is for the same reasons as USmash, it was reasonable, considering it's kill potential. Besides, a Palutena player really shouldn't be using Uair as a combo move anyway. It's always best as a combo finisher. (Like DThrow > Nair > Uair)
• Which brings me to Nair, just slightly decrease endlag, making it a slightly better combo move.

These are just changes I could see making her more competitively viable, while at the same time not making her ridiculous. Despite it being a mod, I wouldn't mind discussing these things.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I did some more testing with my attribute modifications, and I can definitely say that making a fighter have high air mobility and low falling speed can make him or her more difficult to hit in the air, or even make a quick KO on. This is especially true for my Jigglypuff modifications, where even with a weight value of 70, it can end up surviving for quite a while if your fighter lacks a powerful aerial attack to whack it with.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I suggested some changes for Marth, which I will list below in this post again anyway, but I also want to touch on Samus too. I'll list a few things Samus needs too.

Spoiler: Marth Changes

• Up Tilt deals 1% more across all hitboxes (from 5%/6%/9% to 6%/7%/10%), but it's overall knockback is compensated so the move functions no different to before in terms of knockback and KO power (I wouldn't really know values for this one, it would require testing to be correct). The frame 6 hitboxs are also increased in size a little (increased in the area between Marth's body and his arm), to prevent the move from whiffing on certain characters at close range.
• Down Smash improved in some capacity. It's currently extremely hard to space, and the untipped hitboxes are very weak, unsafe, and unrewarding. It doesn't even need to be noticeably improved. Simply like so would make it a bit better move that might be considered useful in a few situartions: Front hit damage increased by 1% (8%/12% to 9%/13%), and just the sour back hit increased by 1% (12% to 13%). These changes would at least make Down Smash a little more rewarding on hit.
• Fair: AC Frames changed to match Bair (36> to 32>), and landing lag decreased by 2 frames.
• Nair and Uair have changed AC frames (Nair: 47> to 40>, which allows it to just autocancel in a short hop. Uair: 38> to 36>). They both also have 1 frame less landing lag (Nair: 12 to 11, and Uair: 14 to 13).
• Up Air's sourspot and tipper hitboxes edited so that there is less overlap between them, making it slightly easier to hit the tipper. This is arguably the hardest move for Marth to tip. I'm not suggesting give the move more range, no. Merely, make the sourspot hitbox very slightly smaller, causing less overlap, meaning more room to tipper the move.
  
• Forward Throw has changed knockback, to make it a more reliable combo throw at lower percents, but not a KO confrim throw (from 100 BKB/50 KBG to 70 BKB, which was BKB of Melee, and KBG to something like 70, which should stop it being a combo throw at around high percents. Again, for referemce, Melee's KBG was 45).
• Down Throw has changed knockback, to make it slightly better at lower percents, but stops any follow ups at high percents that aren't already possible now (from 95 BKB/50 KBG, to something like 85 BKB, 65 KBG).
• Dolphin Slash's sweetspot deals 1% more damage, making it in line with Crescent Slash's sweetspot, while also making it more rewarding. The sweetspot hitbox is also increased in size to match the animation better (from 4.5u to at least 5.5u; for reference, Brawl's was 6u, but 5.5u would work fine). The KBG should be slightly compensated, so that while it is still more powerful, it's not noticeably more powerful (KBG 74 to KBG 72).
• Marth now says his Counter quotes upon activation. Biggest buff right here.

I could go on and list a few more Marth changes, but they would be extras; these are what Marth needs. If you like these, feel free to add them. I've used Marth across all games he's been in, so I know my fair share about him as a character.[/QUOTE]

Spoiler: Samus Changes

• Jab changed slightly, to allow it to reliably link. Achieved by setting the BKB of all of Jab 1's hitboxes to 35, with a KBG of 60, and an angle of 50°. Links up to around 100%.
  • As compensation, Jab 2 deals 2% less damage (8% to 6%).
• Down Tilt improved slightly. It's damage is increased by 0.5% (12% to 12.5%), and it's KBG is minimally increased (48 to 60), giving is slightly more KO power, gifting Samus with a better/more reliable grounded vertical launcher (which she currently lacks). It's endlag is also decreased slightly (FAF 40 to FAF 38).
• The BKB on Forward Smash's sourspot is minimally increased, making it safer at low percents (16 BKB to 20 BKB). The sweetspot hitbox is also increased in size slightly to fully match the explosion (which it currently does not; from 4.5u to 5u).
• Down Smash improved, to make it usable, as opposed to being far and away the worst Down Smash in the game. Both hits damages increased by 2% (Hit 1: 10% to 12%, Hit 2: 12% to 14%) with slightly increased KBG (Hit 1: 46 to 49, Hit 2: 48 to 52).
• Forward Air AC's earlier, to allow it to just AC in a short hop (47> to 42>, which is the same as Back Air). It also has slightly decreased landing lag (24 frames to 20 frames).
  • As compensation, it has less KBG (140 to 135).
• Back Air has slightly less KBG (98 to 95) (this one is slight compensation for other buffs).
• Z-Air deals more damage (1.5%/3% to 2%/4%).
• Both kinds of missile improved:
  • Homing Missile deals 1% more damage (5% to 6%).
  • Super Missile launches opponents at a better angle (from 65° to 48°), has slightly increased knockback (from 50 BKB/65 KBG to 52 BKB and 70 KBG).
• Samus's throws are changed slightly:
  • Forward Throw has more KBG (55 to 62).
  • Back Throw deals 1% more damage (8% to 9%). It also has more KBG (55 to 65).
  • Up Throw has slightly more KBG (70 to 78).
  • Down Throw has an altered angle (80° to 82º). This makes away DI slightly less effective, making a Forward Air follow up a bit easier, but the change also makes inward DI a bit better mixup for attempting to avoid Up Air follow ups. The endlag is also decreased by 1 frame.

Like with Marth, there are a few other changes I could suggest, but they wouldn't be justified enough as these changes, which clearly address some of Samus's core problems.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just a spitball for Lucina I'd be curious to see a discussion on.

I've heard/read that Lucina should be played in a more trapping style of play compared to Marth. What about improving her (and just hers not Marth's) walk and aerial acceleration? She's not nearly as worried about spacing, so let her develop further into that trapping style of play by being able to get to top speed faster than Marth can (who in exchange gets the stronger hits). Would also improve her edgeguarding (Marth has stronger hits offstage, Lucina can go a bit deeper safely due to acceleration difference).

Beyond that, continue to give her the same buffs Marth gets.

 

[Gigan X3]

Just a spitball for Lucina I'd be curious to see a discussion on.

I've heard/read that Lucina should be played in a more trapping style of play compared to Marth. What about improving her (and just hers not Marth's) walk and aerial acceleration? She's not nearly as worried about spacing, so let her develop further into that trapping style of play by being able to get to top speed faster than Marth can (who in exchange gets the stronger hits). Would also improve her edgeguarding (Marth has stronger hits offstage, Lucina can go a bit deeper safely due to acceleration difference).

Beyond that, continue to give her the same buffs Marth gets.

I support this. Lucina's individual appeal would be stronger with this and since we are touching up on Dr. Mario, she should get something as well.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just a spitball for Lucina I'd be curious to see a discussion on.

I've heard/read that Lucina should be played in a more trapping style of play compared to Marth. What about improving her (and just hers not Marth's) walk and aerial acceleration? She's not nearly as worried about spacing, so let her develop further into that trapping style of play by being able to get to top speed faster than Marth can (who in exchange gets the stronger hits). Would also improve her edgeguarding (Marth has stronger hits offstage, Lucina can go a bit deeper safely due to acceleration difference).

Beyond that, continue to give her the same buffs Marth gets.

The problem with this scenario is that, Lucina cannot be played in a more "trapping style". She cannot play more trapping, rushdown, or offensive, because that's not how she was created. While Lucina does not have to space to get the damage, so to speak, she must still space in an almost identical manner to Marth to be safe. Opponents can still shield Lucina's attacks and punish her unless she spaces it near the tip, akin to Marth. Why is this? Because she's supposed to be, quite simply "beginner Marth", where the damage is consistent. She was created to play identical to Marth, but failing on your spacing during combos and attempting to KO the opponent wouldn't be vital. Changing her up would go against Sakurai's view on the character, which I think we should respect and leave as is. Sure, it would be cool to see her changed to be a little different, but the point stand that it wouldn't make sense considering we know how she is intended to play.

However, this brings me to another point...

• Dr Mario was stated by Sakurai himself to be a slower, yet stronger Mario, which is what he is.
• Lucina was stated by Sakurai himself to be an easy play Marth, which is what she is.
• Dark Pit wasn't stated to be anything by Sakurai. His reasoning was that it was because he wanted to give Dark Pit a different side special.

Dark Pit is different from the other clone characters, in that he doesn't have a solid difference or stated reason as to why he exists. Why did Sakurai stop at just stop at a couple moves being different? Who knows. But because he hasn't stated that Dark Pit was created to cater for a specific playstyle, we could potentially make him different.

 

[L9999]

The point is that Lucina should have something unique to her, so elitists stop saying she sucks or she is "invalidated" by Marth. And Sakurai's vision gave us wonderful masterpieces of game design like...Jigglypuff, DDD, Zelda, Mii Swordfighter, and broken top tiers.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If Lucina is supposed to be an easier to use Marth, wouldn't a Marth that also got up to top speed faster be easier to use and thus still how she was intended to be used? It also also let her extend a handful of combo ranges most likely (able to get up to top speed faster = greater range where follow ups work) which would get her closer to on par with Marth who tends to have the same combos work longer.

I also disagree that she has to be played identically to Marth. I think it was Shaya that brought up the trapping thing. I don't remember the exact way it was described because it was uh, a few months back I think, but there was a way that Lucina could be played that would work better for her than it would for Marth.

 

[Gigan X3]

I'm not saying we should go completely against Sakurai's vision but he tends to make a lot of really questionable decisions. He intended Fire Fox to be a combo finisher but it doesn't really work like that, it's impractical.

 

[Respect38]

Would it be possible to improve the stage list as well?

If you could force some stages to run their 8-player version always, then PS2 and Pyrosphere would immediately become viable.

If you could outright freeze stages, then that would make a ton of stages viable, as well. [including the ones where you would be forcing it toward a particular version, in the case of Super Mario Maker and Gamer.]

 

[Eugene Wang]

I suggest Lucina's differentiating factor to be that she controls space by filling it with hitboxes and covering multiple options, rather than threatening with tippers. Give her more generous hitboxes. Like maybe change the non-meteor hits of dair to weak diagonal spikes. Or make shieldbreaker always break shields. You get the idea.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Some of these ideas, while cool, are totally missing the point.

This is meant to be a "balance" patch, not a give x character lots of broken options that make no sense.

 

[Gigan X3]

Improving her meteor would be interesting, just doing that change and leaving everything else as is is already a big enough change.

 

[Funbot28]

Will we also be changing not high and mid tier characters? I feel some of them deserve certain buffs (will not post my ideas until I get confirmation though). I mean you already slightly buffed Cloud and Diddy, so I feel this opens the door to more than bottom/low tier characters.

 

[Minik]

Honestly the change I want the most is to just give Pac-man's down air a meteor ability, even if its very weak. (That and a grab buff but I think everyone wants that.)

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Huh, I wasn't notified of more replies.

I'm just checking in to let everyone know this project is still going on. We've just been going through characters one at a time and editing until the changes are content and not overchanged.

 

[Frihetsanka]

When you do update, it'd be really nice if you (or someone else) also made it work for European Smash 4.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

When you do update, it'd be really nice if you (or someone else) also made it work for European Smash 4.

It turns out that making a EU version should be easy to do, as the fighter edits are universal, but the param edits are not, so all I would need to do is rip the European fighter_param.bin, and apply the same edits to that.

 

[Deleted member]

I won't be able to do the Floating Point related edits (Din's Fire, Phantom Slash, Farore's Wind, etc), but I can do everything else. I'll talk with the others about these changes because these changes sound really solid. Do you have any explanations as of why these moves should be changed?

Yes I do.

- Regarding her character attributes, we all know that Zelda is one of the slowest characters and has low survivability (being light, tall, and floaty.) Peach is the character with the most similar physique to Zelda, so I think buffing Zelda's Weight and Run Speed to that of Peach would be useful yet subtle enough to not change the overall feeling of the character. She'd still be slow and have below average survivability, but it would be less severe. The Walk Speed, Run Speed, and Air Speed buffs would allow her to chase down faster opponents and follow up slightly more effectively, which she currently has a lot of trouble doing.

- Fall Speed and Fast Fall Speed are also relatively subtle buffs, but they would help her return to the ground more quickly. Right now, her floatiness and lack of safe aerials makes her very vulnerable in the air.

- The faster Jump Squat would make transitioning from ground to air a bit more fluid, another way to speed up her otherwise slow gameplay. Many other characters have 4 frame Jump Squats, so I feel this is another reasonable buff.

- Side Tilt's blind spot should be eliminated just to make the move more consistent. Missing characters at point-blank range is annoying. This is more of a "fix" than a buff.

- Down Tilt is one of her quickest and safest moves to throw out, and a 1% damage buff would make it slightly more rewarding on hit. Zelda needs to be able to rack up damage more quickly due to her low speed and general lack of combos.
- The lowered KBG is meant to compensate for the damage increase (although I'm not sure whether the specific value is correct or not). Actually, I might prefer it if the KBG was even lower so that the move could continue to lead into follow ups at higher percents.

- Up Tilt's hitbox does not match the animation well. The hitbox ends much earlier than it looks like it should, which causes small/crouching characters to avoid the move even though it looks like they should've been hit. This would make the move more consistent as a combo starter.

- Dash Attack's active frames were increased to match Brawl. This buff is pretty much reversing an unnecessary nerf to a move that didn't deserve it.
- Lowering the sweetspot's angle and increasing its damage by 1% will allow the move to KO earlier. Hitting with the sweetspot is difficult enough as it is, plus the move has noticeable end lag, so I think letting it to KO better is reasonable.
- The sour spot's angle was raised to send the opponent above Zelda and allow for possible follow-ups, increasing Zelda's otherwise shallow pool of combo moves. Previously, the sour spot wasn't very rewarding since it dealt little damage and couldn't KO or combo.

- Side Smash's end lag was reduced to match Brawl. Reversing yet another unnecessary nerf, this would make the move safer on shield.

- Up Smash and Down Smash buffs are, again, intended to make them closer to their Brawl counterparts. Considering she wasn't even good in Brawl, it made absolutely no sense to nerf two of her best moves in that game. Zelda has average range overall, so she would really appreciate the range buffs as well as Down Smash's increased KO potential.

- Neutral Air's damage was increased on the back hits to match the front hits. This makes the move more consistent and improves her damage racking ability.
- The hitbox on her hands on the final hit is currently smaller than the hitboxes on her hands during the looping hits for some reason. Increasing its size to match simply makes sense from a design standpoint.
- The final hit has two hitboxes covering her head and body that the looping hits lack. Adding these two hitboxes to the looping hits would increase the move's otherwise mediocre vertical range and make it easier for Zelda to fastfall and hit grounded opponents with the move, which is one of her primary combo starters.
- I also slightly reduced the end lag and landing lag to make it a bit easier to follow up both on the ground and in the air.

- Up Air coming out 2 frames earlier would make it more difficult for the opponent to escape her "finger bang" combo, which is pretty much her only semi-reliable KO combo (she has trouble KOing otherwise.)
- The hitbox still lasts until frame 16 like before, thereby increasing the move's overall active frames and making it harder to air dodge through move. This makes sense visually since the plume of fire lingers for a while.

- Lightning Kicks are so painfully punishable that it feels as if she is fighting without a Fair and Bair most of the time. Lowering their high landing lag is needed (in addition to the aerial end lag reduction and sourspot damage increase you already have listed.) This is also another attempt to revert an unnecessary nerf she received in the transition from Brawl, where the two moves weren't nearly as laggy and punishable.
- Very slightly increasing the size of the sweetspots would also be preferable. They're so small currently that they're nearly impossible to land on a moving target in the middle of a fight, so I don't think this change would make them overpowered.

- Forward Throw's angle was lowered to put opponents into a better position for edgeguarding when thrown off the stage (which is something Zelda is actually decent at.)

- Back Throw deals 1% more damage and had its BKB/KBG growth values reversed to allow the move to KO earlier. I think this is reasonable considering how it easy it is to DI the move, and as I mentioned before Zelda has a tough time KOing as it is.

- Down throw deals 2% more damage as another way to improve her damage racking ability. I just don't think the move feels right dealing as little damage as it currently does, especially since it's her go-to throw most of the time. The damage increase would be applied as a 0.5% increase to each looping hit so that the final hit deals the same amount of damage and wouldn't need its KB altered to retain the move's combo potential.

- Nayru's Love currently has an issue where the diamond appears around her, but she still gets grabbed/hit out of the move because the invincibility/hitbox aren't active yet. This looks silly and detracts from the move's defensive worth. Moving the invincibity/hitbox up 2 frames would help prevent this.
- Increasing the size of the looping hits to match the final hit would allow the move to function better as a reliable defensive option. Improving the range makes hit harder for other characters to rush her down and overwhelm her with quick moves. They would need to respect her space more.
- The end lag reduction is because she really needs this move to be safer since it is her primary way of protecting herself from all of the faster characters she otherwise has trouble defending herself against.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

-snip

Thank you so much for this. This is the type of content I look forward to when people suggest changes for characters.

 

[Gigan X3]

OK lemme try for Robin, no big changes, just stuff to tighten the way he plays, make it more consistent or efficient.

Jab combo finisher could use some adjusting, maybe a vertical extension of the final hitbox as it tends to miss more often than other combo finishers.

His Aerials are pretty good with Down Air being the only not so good one, maybe we can make the main hitbox for bronze sword last 3 extra frames to make it a more viable option as it currently only hits for the duration of frames 13-15(Levin DAir has active hitboxes from frame 13 to 22, still kinda so-so but oh well) which is horrible considering it has 26 frames of landing lag, which should also be reduced by 3 frames

His grab range is horrendous but his throws are decent to balance it out so maybe we should keep the bad range but make the grab slightly faster, it currently grabs people from frames 7-8 and the grab in general lasts 40 frames, most characters grab on frame 6 so we can change Robin so that he grabs from frames 6 to 7 like most of the cast and maybe shave off 3-5 frames out of the ending lag.

 

[Halcy0n]

http://smashboards.com/threads/99-9-shulks-frame-analysis.431540/ check this for shulk changes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

OK lemme try for Robin, no big changes, just stuff to tighten the way he plays, make it more consistent or efficient.

Jab combo finisher could use some adjusting, maybe a vertical extension of the final hitbox as it tends to miss more often than other combo finishers.

His Aerials are pretty good with Down Air being the only not so good one, maybe we can make the main hitbox for bronze sword last 3 extra frames to make it a more viable option as it currently only hits for the duration of frames 13-15(Levin DAir has active hitboxes from frame 13 to 22, still kinda so-so but oh well) which is horrible considering it has 26 frames of landing lag, which should also be reduced by 3 frames

His grab range is horrendous but his throws are decent to balance it out so maybe we should keep the bad range but make the grab slightly faster, it currently grabs people from frames 7-8 and the grab in general lasts 40 frames, most characters grab on frame 6 so we can change Robin so that he grabs from frames 6 to 7 like most of the cast and maybe shave off 3-5 frames out of the ending lag.

You mentioned his grab range. That's not even the biggest problem with his grab game. His pummel is borderline worst pummel in the game. The endlag on the pummel is horrendous. This is one of the first things that needs changing about his grab game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I recently noticed something in regards to Dr. Mario. When I had Dr. Mario's run speed set to 1.6976, and I had Link's run speed set to 1.4, Dr. Mario apparently ran a bit faster than Link. That makes me think that Dr. Mario's run speed multiplier is "not" 0.82.

I looked at it further by having Dr. Mario and Bowser Jr. run at the same time. At 1.424, Bowser Jr. still ran a bit faster than the run speed buff that I gave to Dr. Mario.

It seems that the run speed multiplier is somewhere between 0.825 and 0.838; it's probably 0.83, but I'm not completely certain.

I also did some air speed tests with Dr. Mario with his air speed set to 1.22015. He moved slower in the air than PAC-MAN, whose air speed was set to 1.04. Similarly, at 1.02 air speed, Marth and Lucina seemed to move a bit faster in the air than Dr. Mario as well.

I did notice, however, that when I compared my Dr. Mario air speed changes with Robin's air speed of 1, Robin apparently moved a bit faster in the air than Dr. Mario. The same thing happened when I used Bowser's air speed of 1 as a test source. But when I used Wii Fit Trainer's 0.97 air speed as a comparison, Dr. Mario moved faster in the air than her.

It seems that the air speed multiplier for Dr. Mario is weaker than 0.82; maybe it's somewhere between 0.795 and 0.819.

As for walk speed, the walk speed value of 1.1671 that I set on Dr. Mario enabled him to walk faster than Captain Falcon, while Dedede walked slightly faster.

 

[HiNiTe]

KingJigglypuff Hello. This is an interesting thread. As soon as I figured out how to edit Smash movesets, I started making my own balance changes just for curiosity's sake. If you'd like, you could probably interpret my changes into yours for characters. In fact, I can help if you need an extra hand!

Here are my changes thus far, I will not include characters that you have already done.

Spoiler

Peach
Peach is my secondary, and she is relatively okay. However, I felt she needed a bit more "oomph" in certain areas. Her aerials have better autocancel windows to help with her float game, which were severely nerfed from Brawl.

[DOWN SMASH]
+ Looping hitboxes +1%, total damage 19%
- Knockback growth reduced to compensate

[FORWARD THROW]
+ Knockback growth: 83 → 95
/ Graphic effects altered (heart effect from up tilt on slap)

Rosalina & Luma
Disclaimer: I am a Rosalina main, and I know many people are salty about this character, so I was very conservative. But she does have several issues with her own hitboxes (Luma is fine). In any case, I made one slight change.

[ROSALINA UP SMASH]
+ Hitbox sizes: radii 4.0 → 5.0

Link
+ Run speed: 1.3944 → 1.53
+ Air speed: 0.88 → 0.945
+ Gravity: 0.096 → 0.098

[FORWARD AIR]
+ Final hitbox Knockback growth: 100 → 110
- Landing lag: 12 frames → 15 frames

[Spin Attack - Ground]
+ First hitbox wave Knockback growth: 86 → 96
+ First hitbox wave Size: radii 4/3/3 → 4.2/3.6/3.6
+ All hitboxes: Shield damage 0 → 2.5

GANONDORF
[Attributes]
+ Walk speed: 0.73 → 0.748
+ Run speed initial velocity: 1.3 → 1.32
+ Run speed: 1.218 → 1.3
+ Jump squat: 7 → 6
+ Double jump power: 26 → 28
+ Air speed: 0.79 → 0.85 (Brawl)
+ Fast fall: 2.64 → 2.65
+ Weight: 113 → 114

[UP TILT]
+ Super Armor (intangible) added from frames 20 ~ 60

[NEUTRAL AIR]
+ Landing lag: 17 frames → 15 frames
+ Autocancel window: 42 frames → 36 frames

[UP AIR]
+ Landing lag: 19 frames → 17 frames
+ Autocancel window: 25 frames → 22 frames

[DOWN AIR]
+ Damage: 19% → 20% (+1)
+ Knockback growth: 100 → 105
+ Autocancel window: 32 frames → 24 frames

[GRAB]
+ All grabs catch hitboxes: X offset 4 → 5

[DOWN THROW]
+ Angle: 65° → 60°
- Knockback growth: 50 → 42
- Base knockback: 70 → 53

JIGGLYPUFF
[Attributes]
+ Weight: 68 → 70
+ Air speed: 1.269 → 1.35 (Melee)
+ Air acceleration: 0.08 → 0.1

[UP TILT]
+ Hitbox, heel: Y offset position -3 → -6
+ Hitbox, foot: Y offset position 0 → -3
(The graphic effect now matches the hitboxes)

[DOWN TILT]
/ Angle: 20° → 32°

[UP SMASH]
+ Angle: 88° → 90°
+ Damage: 14% → 15%
+ Hitbox startup: 16 frames → 15 frames
+ Interuption lag: 61 frames → 51 frames
- Knockback growth: 105 → 100

[DOWN SMASH]
+ Damage: 11% → 12% (reverted to Brawl)
+ Knockback growth: 52 → 72
+ Trip chance: 20% → 30%

[NEUTRAL AIR]
+ Landing lag: 15 frames → 12 frames

[BACK AIR]
+ Landing lag: 20 frames → 18 frames

[UP AIR]
+ All hitbox sizes: radii 3.2 → 4 (reverted to Brawl)

[DOWN AIR]
+ Landing lag: 30 frames → 25 frames
+ Autocancel window: 42 frames → 40 frames
+ Final hitbox angle: 91° → 290° (spike)
- Final hitbox base knockback: 30 → 25
- Final hitbox knockback growth: 150 → 115

[FORWARD THROW]
+ Damage: 10% → 10.5% (+0.5)

[UP THROW]
- Knockback growth: 30 → 20
+ Base knockback: 120 → 145
+ Damage: 10% → 11%

[DOWN THROW]
- Damage: 10% → 5%
- Knockback reduced
/ Angle: readjusted
(slight combo throw)

[Rollout]
+ Hitbox size: radii 2.5 → 3.5

[Rest] (reverted back to Melee)
+ Damage: 20% → 28%
+ Angle: 88° → 361°
+ Attribute: Flower → Fire

SAMUS
Parameters
Run speed: 1.504 → 1.63
Weight: 108 → 110

[JAB1]
Hitbox X pos: 12.2/6.2/0.2 → 14 / 7 / 0.2
Hitbox #2 size: radii 3 → 4
Transition: 13 frames → 9 frames

[JAB2]
Hitbox #1 Z pos: 0 → -3

[DASH ATTACK]
(2nd) hitbox #0 kbg: 60 → 70

[FORWARD TILT]
Sourspot damage consistent

[DOWN TILT]
damage 12 → 14
kbg 48 → 60
radi 4.2 / 4.5 → 4.5 / 5

[FORWARD SMASH]
Damage sweetspot +1%
Arm and cannon bones are now intangible frames 10 - 15
Hitbox #0 size 3.2 → 3.5
Hitbox #0 Z pos 0 → -1.25
Hitbox #1 size 2.2 → 3
Hitbox #1 Z pos -4 → 5
Hitbox #2 Z pos 7.5 → 9
Hitbox #2 clangability True → False
(Fixes the hitbox whiff on small characters and makes this move more safe)

[UP SMASH]
New hitbox @ frame 9 for 2 frames
Bone 0, Part 0, Damage 3%, Angle 110, KBG 0, FKB 110, BKB 55, Size 6, Z 0 Y 7.5 X 9, Effect 1, Trip 0, Hitlag 0, SDI 0.8, Clang 0
(creates a hitbox in front of Samus' leg that connects characters into her up smash perfectly, fixing small characters being able to avoid this move and generally making this move functional)

[NEUTRAL AIR]
Second wave of hitboxes removed, third wave compensated

[FORWARD THROW]
Damage +1%
KBG 55 → 60

[BACK THROW]
Damage +2%
KBG 55 → 72

[UP THROW]
BKB 80 → 72

Kirby
[UP TILT]
Knockback growth: 116/110 → 109/109
Base knockback: 40 → 37

[UP SMASH]
First hitbox wave Damage: 15/15/14 → 15/15/15
First hitbox wave Knockback growth: 104 → 110
First hitbox wave Size: 5.2/5.2/5.2 → 5.5/5.5/5.5

[DOWN SMASH]
Hitbox size: 4/4 → 5/5

[NEUTRAL AIR]
Autocancel window: 5 frames → 6 frames / 56 frames → 50 frames

[FORWARD AIR]
Damage: 4/4, 3 → 4.5/4.5, 3.5
Final hitbox Size: 4.9 → 5.5
Autocancel window: 51 frames → 49 frames

[BACK AIR]
Knockback growth 104 → 108

[UP AIR]
Allow interupt on frame 41

Duck Hunt
[JAB FINISHER]
Knockback growth: 140 → 170

[DASH ATTACK]
Late hitbox Damage: 7% → 8%

[UP TILT]
Knockback growth: 130 → 103
Base knockback: 35 → 30
Hitbox size: 7 → 8

[DOWN TILT]
Damage: 8% → 10%
Hitbox size 3.5 → 4
Knockback growth: 60 → 54

(These changes to his smash attacks fix the annoying issue that characters fall out of it, not connecting properly)

[FORWARD SMASH]
Hitbox radii Sizes: 3.8/5.2/7 → 4.8/6.2/8
SDI ratio: 1.0x → 0.8x
Final hitbox Clangability: True → False

[UP SMASH]
First hitbox wave Sizes: 5.3 → 6
First hibox wave X Offsets: 7/7 → 6.5/7.5
Second hitbox wave Size: 6.3 → 7
Final hitbox wave Size: 7.8 → 8.2
SDI ratio: 1.0x → 0.8x
Final hitbox Clangability: True → False

[DOWN SMASH]
First hitbox wave Size: 4.5 → 5
Second hitbox wave Size: 6.1 → 6.5
Final hitbox wave Size: 7.8 → 8.2
SDI ratio: 1.0x → 0.8x

[UP THROW]
Damage: 6% → 8%
Knockback growth: 80 → 75

For fun, I also made my own unique changes to the two "direct clones" Dark Pit and Lucina to make them more unique than their counterparts. You can see what I did here.

Spoiler

Dark Pit
The design for Dark Pit, compared to Pit, is to make him a "stronger but much slower" counterpart.

Walk speed: 1.199 → 0.98
Run speed: 1.66215 → 1.362963
Air acceleration: 0.065 → 0.053
Air speed: 0.89 → 0.72
Gravity: 0.081 → 0.092
Max fall speed: 1.48 → 1.62
Fast fall: 2.368 → 2.595
Ful hop power: 31.1 → 29.9
Double jump power: 31 → 28.8
Weight: 96 → 100

[JAB]
Jab3 hitbox damage: 5% → 6%
Finisher hitbox damage: 2% → 3.2%
Finisher knockback growth: 170 → 180

[DASH ATTACK]
Damage: 11% → 12.5%
Frame duration end 20% longer

[FORWARD TILT]
Frame duration start 20% longer
Hitbox 1 damage: 7% → 4%
Hitbox 1 radii: 3.5 → 3.2
Hitbox 2 damage: 10% → 12%
Hitbox 2 radii: 3.5 → 4
Hitbox 2 knockback growth: 100 → 108
Hitbox 2 base knockback: 15 -> 25
Frame duration end 30% longer
(This is now a two-hit move)

[DOWN TILT]
FSM -35%
Damage: 6% → 7%
Angle: 55 → 270

[FORWARD SMASH]
Final hitbox Frame speed modifier -20% @ frames 20 & 22
Final hitbox Damage: 10% → 15%

[UP SMASH]
Now two hits compared to Pit's three

First hitbox wave Frame speed modifier +20%
Damage 3% -> 3.5%
Final hitbox wave FSM -10%
Damage 10% -> 12%
Final hitbox radii sizes altered

[NEUTRAL AIR]
Iterations: 7 -> 10
Iteration hitbox damages: 0.7% -> 1%

[FORWARD AIR]
Iterations: 2 -> 4
Final hitbox Damage: 4% -> 8%
Autocancel window: 28 frames -> 34 frames

[BACK AIR]
FSM: -40%
Damage: 11/8 -> 15/11
Sync timer: 3 -> 2
Autocancel window: 28 frames -> 34 frames

[UP AIR]
Now a single hit
FSM +20%
Damage 6%

[UP SPECIAL]
His Up Special, by default, is now his second custom move: Striking Flight.

Lucina
For Lucina's design compared to Marth, she is much speedier; akin to Marth in Melee. However, she is much weaker overall to compensate.

Walk initial velocity: 0.18 → 0.19
Walk max velocity: 1.5 → 1.6
Dash initial velocity: 1.5 → 1.6
Run speed: 1.785 → 2.30
Air acceleration: 0.07 → 0.085
Air deceleration: 0.01 → 0.03
Name 23: 0.0375 -> 0.01
Air speed: 1.02 → 1.22
Weight: 90 → 85

[JAB]
FSM: 10% faster
Damage: 3.325% → 2% / 4.75% → 4%

[DASH ATTACK]
FSM: 12% faster (.88)
Damage: 9.75% → 8%

[FORWARD TILT]
FSM: 15% faster
Damage: 10.75% → 10%

[UP TILT]
FSM: 20% faster
Damage: 8% -> 5%

[DOWN TILT]
Damage: 8.5% -> 8%
Angle: 30 -> 20

[FORWARD SMASH]
FSM 20% faster
Damage: 15% -> 12.5%

[UP SMASH]
FSM 20% faster
Damage: 14.25% -> 11.5%

[FORWARD AIR]
Landing lag: 16 frames → 12 frames

[BACK AIR]
Landing lag: 17 frames → 15 frames

[DOWN AIR]
Landing lag: 24 frames → 18 frames

[Neutral Special]
Her default Neutral Special is changed to Dashing Assault.

If anyone is interested in downloads for these changes let me know!

 

[Deleted member]

I think a great starting point for a lot of the returning Brawl veterans (who aren't Top Tier) is to simply revert some of their attributes to how they were in Brawl. I've compiled a general list of possible buffs many characters could get based on the nerfs they received in the transition between games (I'm not saying all of these need to be implemented. It's just a reference.)

Spoiler: Bowser

- Air Speed increased.
- Up Tilt has less startup.
- Dash Attack has 1 less frame of startup and more BKB.
- Forward Smash has slightly less end lag.
- Down Smash deals more damage and has more KBG.
- Forward Air has less startup.
- Back Air has more active frames.
- Up Air deals more damage.
- Down Air has less startup and deals more damage.
- Up Throw deals more damage.
- Fire Breath flinches opponents at its furthest range.

Spoiler: Captain Falcon

- Neutral Air has less landing lag.
- Forward Air has less end lag and landing lag. Can autocancel from a short hop again.
- Down Air can autocancel from a short hop again.
- Falcon Punch has increased BKB, decreased end lag, and a larger hitbox.
- Raptor Boost has slightly less end lag. Aerial version is always a guaranteed meteor smash and gives him more height after a successful hit.
- Falcon Dive has less end lag after a successful grab. Armor restored.

Spoiler: Charizard

- Air Speed and Traction increased.
- Jumpsquat 1 frame shorter.
- Forward Tilt sourspot deals more damage.
- Down Tilt deals more damage and is quicker.
- Forward Smash deals more damage.
- Up Smash has transcendent priority again.
- Back Air has decreased landing lag. Can autocancel form a short hop again.
- Up Air has less startup and more active frames.
- Rock Smash deals more damage.

Spoiler: DeDeDe

- Air Speed increased.
- Jab has slightly larger hitboxes and deals slightly more damage.
- Forward Tilt has less end lag.
- Down Tilt has slightly less end lag, slightly more active frames, and doesn't miss at point-blank range.
- Dash Attack doesn't miss at point-blank range.
- Down Smash deals more damage.
- Forward Air has decreased end lag and deals more damage.
- Back Air has decreased startup and end lag and more active frames.
- Down air has decreased startup, more active frames, and the sourspot deals more damage.
- Grab comes out 1 frame sooner and has slightly more range.
- All throws deal more damage
- Back Throw sends at a lower angle
- Gordos cannot be reflected by any normal attacking hitbox.
- Inhale's armor restored.

Spoiler: Donkey Kong

- Down Tilt deals more damage and has more BKB.
- Dash Attack deals 1% more damage.
- Forward Tilt has less end lag and more KBG.
- Up Smash and Down Smash have more BKB and KBG.
- Neutral, Back, and Up aerials have less landing lag.
- Forward Air's early hit has more KBG, and the sourspot deals more damage.
- Down Air's has more active frames. Sweetspot has more BKB.
- Pummel deals more damage.
- Giant Punch deals more shield damage.
- Headbutt has slightly less end lag and deals more damage in the air.
- Spinning Kong has less end lag. Grounded version deals more damage.
- Hand Slap has less end lag.

Spoiler: Falco

- Jab's first and second hits have set KB again.
- Dash Attack has less start up.
- Forward Smash comes out 1 frame sooner and the late hit has more range.
- Up Smash has less end lag.
- Neutral Air has less landing lag.
- Forward Air has less startup and deals more damage. The final hit has a larger hitbox.
- Back Air has more range and more active frames.
- Down Air has much less startup and end lag, higher KBG, and larger hitboxes.
- Standing grab has slightly less startup.
- Down Throw stats reverted to allow for better follow-ups.
- Blaster fires more quickly, accelerates slightly faster, and can autocancel again.
- Falco Phantasm has slightly less startup.
- Reflector has a longer reflection window and deals more damage.

Spoiler: Ganon

- Air Speed increased.
- Forward Smash has more range (to make up for the removal of the lunge he used to take when pivoting.)
- Dash Attack sweetspot deals more KB.
- Down Air autocancels in a shorthop again.
- Flame Choke and Dark Dive have their armor restored.

Spoiler: Ike

- Walk Speed increased
- Jump Squat decreased by 1 frame.
- Jab first two hits have less end lag, restoring his jab cancel. The third hit has increased KB and damage.
- Forward Tilt deals more damage.
- Up Tilt as more active frames and increased BKB.
- Down Tilt deals more damage and can meteor smash opponents on the ledge again.
- Forward Smash has less end lag and increased KB.
- Down Smash and Up Smash have transcendent priority again.
- Down Smash's second hit has more active frames.
- Neutral Air has less landing lag.
- Up Air deals more damage.
- Down Air deals more damage, has increased BKB, and has more active frames.
- All grabs have slightly decreased end lag.
- Back Throw has decreased KB, allowing Ike to follow-up at higher percents again.
- Uncharged Eruption has its armor restored. Later charges deal more damage.
- Quickdraw deals more damage, and the end lag Ike suffers if he doesn't hit an opponent is decreased.
- Aether deals more damage, has more super armor frames, and can meteor smash throughout the descent instead of just at the start. Ike can grab ledges from behind again.

Spoiler: Jigglypuff

- Higher short hop so she an perform 2 aerials in one short hop.
- Jab's ability to jab reset restored. Second Jab has less end lag.
- All Smash attack deal more damage.
- Forwad Air deals more damage.
- Back Air has less startup, 2 more active frames, less end lag and landing lag, and an earlier autocancel.
- Up Air comes out 1 frame sooner and has decreased end lag.
- Down Air comes out 2 frames sooner, deals more damage, and autocancels from a short hop.
- Rollout deals more damage and KB. Jigglypuff can move left/right after hitting an opponent in midair.
- Pound has more momentum for recovery purposes.
- Rest has less end lag (to make up for the fact that upper blast line blast KO's exist now.)

Spoiler: Kirby

- Air Speed and Walking Speed increased.
- Jab's first and second hits have larger hitboxes. Second hit has less BKB so it can connect better.
- Forward, Up, Down tilt have more range.
- Forward Smash comes out 1 frame sooner and has more range.
- Dash Attack deals more damage and the last hit has a larger hitbox.
- All aerials have less landing lag (especially Back Air.)
- Neutral, Up, Down aerials deal more damage.
- Forward, Back, Up aerials have more range.
- Grab range increased.
- Down Throw's stats reverted (more damage, less KB, lower angle) to allow for follow-ups again.
- Hammer Flip has transcendent priority again. Grounded, uncharged version deals more damage and KB. Aerial Hammer has decreased startup and is more useful for recovery again, slowing Kirby's falling speed.
- Final Cutter's shockwave has more range.
- Kirby takes no damage when hit after using Stone.

Spoiler: Link

- Jab deals 2% more damage.
- Dash Attack has much less startup.
- Forward Smash deals more damage on each individual hit and has less end lag.
- Back Air, Down Air, and Zair deal more damage.
- Spin Attack's back hit has increased KB.

Spoiler: Lucario

- Neutral Air has a larger hitbox and has more active frames.
- Forward Smash regains its lingering hitbox.
- All smash attack have less startup and end lag.
- Forward Air deals less KB for better follow-up potential.

Spoiler: Lucas

- Dash Attack sourspot deals more damage and KB.
- Up Tilt deals more damage.
- Down Tilt has slightly more range and less end lag.
- Forward Tilt has less startup and end lag.
- Forward Smash has more BKB.
- Down Smash has more range and regains its transcendent priority.
- Neutral Air has less startup and end lag. SDI multiplier decreased to 1x. Autocancels from a short hop again.
- Forward Air has a larger hitbox. Sweetspot deals slightly more damage. Late hit has increased active frames. Autocancels from a short hop again.
- Up Air has less startup, more active frames, and a larger hitbox. Autocancels from a short hop again.
- Down Air has less startup, deals more damage, and autocancels earlier.
- Pivot Grab has less end lag.
- PK Freeze moves and charges slightly faster.
- PK Thunder 2 deals more damage.
- PSI Magnet deals more damage.

Spoiler: Marth

- Air Speed increased.
- Jab's hits each have 1 less frame of startup.
- Forward Tilt has 1 fless frame of startup.
- Down Tilt has less end lag, is active for 1 extra frame, and moves Marth forward a short distance.
- Forward Smash has more range and less end lag.
- Up Smash has 1 less frame of startup, is active for 1 extra frame, and has less end lag.
- Down Smash deals more damage on both hits (especially the front) and each hit lasts 1 extra frame.
- Forward Air has less startup and end lag and autocancels quicker.
- Back Air deals more damage.
- Up Air autocancels quicker.
- Down Air has less startup and autocancels quicker. Sweetspot is active for longer and has more BKB.
- Grab comes out 1 frame sooner and has 1 less frame of end lag.
- Forward Throw has less BKB and KBG to restore follow-ups.
- Back Throw has less BKB to allow for follow-ups.
- Shield Breaker has more range (to make up for the fact that Marth no longer takes an extra step forward.} The hitbox lasts 2 extra frames and the sourspot has more KBG.
- Dolphin Slash has more intangibility frames. Sweetspot is larger and deals more damage
- Dancing Blade's first hit has slightly less startup and is active for 1 extra frame. Aerial first hit has a better hovering effect. Each subsequent strike has slightly less BKB to allow for easier connecting. The 3rd downward hit regains its ability to meteor smash.

Spoiler: Mr. Game and Watch

- Dash Speed increased.
- Up Tilt has less end lag and larger hitboxese. The move is now a single hit once again.
- Forward Tilt has less end lag.
- Down Tilt has less end lag.
- Dash Attack deals more damage and has less end lag.
- Forward Smash's sweetspot takes priority over the sourspot. Its hitbox has more active frames.
- Up Smash deals more damage, has less end lag, and more active frames.
- Down Smash has less end lag and the sweetspot takes up more of the move. The sourspot is also stronger.
- Neutral Air has decreased landing lag and can autocancel in a short hop again.
- Forward air deals more damage and KB and can autocancel in a short hop again. Its hitbox has more active frames.
- Back Air deals more damage, has less landing lag, and can autocancel in a short hop again.
- Up Air has larger hitboxes. The second hit has less startup.
- Down Air deals more damage and has less landing lag.
- Down Throw deals more damage.
- Oil Panic has less end lag and can be used to stall in the air again.

Spoiler: Olimar

- Forward Tilt has less startup.
- Up Tilt deals more damage.
- Forward Smash has slightly more KB.
- Up Smash has increased vertical range and deals more damage (for all non-Yellow Pikmin.)
- Down Smash deals more damage (Blue Pikmin only.)
- Neutral Air deals more damage.
- Forward Air deals more damage (for all non-white Pikmin.)
- Down Air's sweetspot is easier to land.
- Forward Throw deals more damage (Red and Blue Pikmin only.)
- Up Throw deals more damage (Red, Yellow, and Purple only.)
- Down Throw deals more damage (Red Pikmin only.)
- Back Throw deals more KB
- Pikmin Order's armor lasts longer.

Spoiler: Peach

- Jab deals 1% more damage.
- Up Tilt's sweetspot is moved upward and the sourspot is stronger.
- Forward Tilt deals more damage.
- Down Tilt can meteor smash opponents on the ledge.
- Down Smash has less end lag and deals more damage.
- All aerials have decreased landing lag.
- All aerials autocancel sooner.
- Peach Bomber deals more damage and has less end lag.
- Peach Parasol's final hit has slightly more KB.
- Vegetable has less startup.

Spoiler: Pit

- Air Speed increased.
- Midair jumps go higher.
- Forward Tilt deals more damage and has less end lag.
- Up Tilt has less end lag.
- Down Tilt has less end lag, 1 more active frame, and can meteor smash opponents on the ledge.
- Forward Smash has less startup and end lag. Each hit has 2 more active frames.
- Up Smash has less end lag and more range behind him.
- Neutral Air deals more damage.
- Forward Air deals more damage and KB.
- Up Air deals more damage and has less startup.
- Down Air deals more damage.
- Up Throw deals less KB for better follow-ups.
- Arrows deal more damage, travel further, and have less end lag.
- Upperdash Arm has less end lag (Angle Ring previously had much less end lag.)
- Power of Flight can sweetspot the ledge at the start of the move.
- Guardian Orbitars have less startup and also have super armor on startup (like Mirror Shield previously.)

Spoiler: ROB

- Forward Tilt has more range.
- Up Tilt's side hitboxes are larger and lead into the main upper hitbox again.
- Forward Smash's sourspot deals more damage.
- Neutral Air deals more damage.
- Forward Air deals more damage, more KB, has increased range, and more active frames.
- Back Air has slightly less startup.
- Gyro deals more damage.
- Robo Beam travels faster.

Spoiler: Samus

- Jab connects properly.
- Down Tilt deals more damage and has more KBG.
- Forward Tilt's sourspot deals more consistent (higher) damage.
- Forward Smash has less end lag and the sourspot deals more damage.
- Down Smash deals more damage and KB. Each hit has 1 more active frame.
- Up Smash deals more damage.
- All aerials have decreased landing lag.
- Neutral Air has a larger hitbox (her old Neutral Air had better coverage.)
- Forward Air, Down Air, and Zair deal more damage.
- Forward Air autocancels in a short hop again.
- Down Air no longer has a sour spot.
- Missile Cancel restored. Homing Missiles home in more accurately and travel a further distance.

Spoiler: Toon Link

- Jab deals 1% more damage.
- Forward Tilt no longer has a sourspot.
- Up Tilt, Down Tilt, Dash Attack deal more damage
- All Smash attacks deal more damage.
- Neutral Air deals more damage.
- Back Air has decreased end lag and landing lag, restoring its ability to combo.
- Up Air and Down Air late hits deal 1% more damage.
- Down Air bounces off opponents again, allowing him to use the move offstage without SDing.
- Down Throw has less KBG for better follow-up potential.

Spoiler: Wario

- Jab and Down Tilt deal more damage.
- Forward Smash has less startup and regains its launch resistance.
- Neutral Air has higher KB and less landing lag.
- Up Air deals more damage and has less landing lag.
- Down Air deals more damage and has less end lag.
- Corkscrew and Wario Waft deal more damage.

Spoiler: Yoshi

- Jab deals more damage.
- All Tilts deal more damage.
- All Smashes deal more damage.
- Up Smash has increased range behind Yoshi.
- All aerials deal more damage.
- Neutral, Forward, and Back aerials have less landing lag.
- Down Air weakly meteor smashes airborne opponents again instead of launching them upward.
- Pivot Grab has less end lag.
- Egg Throw deals more damage and the eggs can be thrown further.

Spoiler: Zelda

- Dash Attack has more active frames.
- Forward Tilt deals more damage and has 1 more active frame. It also no longer misses at point-blank range.
- Down Tilt deals more damage and can meteor smash opponents on the ledge again.
- Forward Smash has less end lag.
- Up Smash has more range and less end lag.
- Down Smash has more range and 1 less frame of startup. Front hit has more KBG.
- Lightning Kicks have 1 less frame of start up, more KB, and much less end lag and landing lag.
- Down Air sweetspot has increased BKB and KBG
- Down Throw deals more damage.
- Nayru's Love deals more damage.
- Din's Fire deals more damage. Increased maneuverability, travel distance, and explosion range.

 

[Gigan X3]

You mentioned his grab range. That's not even the biggest problem with his grab game. His pummel is borderline worst pummel in the game. The endlag on the pummel is horrendous. This is one of the first things that needs changing about his grab game.

Thanks, dunno how I missed that. He's definitely got the worst pummel in the game.

 

[EXPBoost]

It would be cool to see some Falco buffs.

Falco:

• Running Speed increased to 1.5
• Dash attack has less startup lag
• D-Air has less startup lag
• Blaster has less endlag
• N-Air has slightly less landing lag

 

[Bowserboy3]

Thanks, dunno how I missed that. He's definitely got the worst pummel in the game.

Actually, Mii Swordfighter's pummel is slightly slower than Robin's. These are the two worst pummels in the game. The endlag on them can make them borderline unusable, because opponents can sometimes mash out after one pummel due to the endlag, leaving Robin and Mii Sword punishable.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I looked at Dr. Mario even further by increasing his speed attributes to 1.08x Mario's speed, and here's what I got...

When I set Dr. Mario's run speed to 1.728, he began to run faster than Bowser Jr.'s 1.424 run speed. But when compared to the run speed buff of 1.45 that I gave to Peach, Dr. Mario did run slower then her.

As for air speed, after I set Dr. Mario's air speed to 1.242, he started to move faster in that air than Bowser and Robin, but his air speed was still slower than that of Marth and Lucina.

So it seems that for Dr. Mario, his run speed multiplier is 0.83, while the air speed multiplier is 0.81.

As for walk speed, I did buff Captain Falcon's walk speed to 0.96, but when compared to the walk speed value of 1.188 that I gave to Dr. Mario, Dr. Mario walked faster. Maybe Dr. Mario's walk speed multiplier is 0.82, but I also increased Dedede's walk speed to 1.

I can't say much about the multiplier for Dr. Mario's air acceleration attribute though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why would you make Zard Bair safer and rock smash do more damage?

One does 16% and is safe on block while outranging almost every aerial in the game and killing sub 100% easily.

The other can already potentially do 30% and super armor a ton of things.

 

[Gigan X3]

Actually, Mii Swordfighter's pummel is slightly slower than Robin's. These are the two worst pummels in the game. The endlag on them can make them borderline unusable, because opponents can sometimes mash out after one pummel due to the endlag, leaving Robin and Mii Sword punishable.

Oh. I don't play Miis so I didn't know but it is a good idea to fix them while we're at it.

 

[ElectroLightning]

How about these Ganon buffs?


Ground Attacks
Down Smash: Removal of thigh hitbox
Reason: Most of the Ganon mains know about Ganon's jank thigh hitbox (the one that doesn't chain into the second hit). This allows Down Smash to link properly all of the time.

Aerial Attacks
Neutral Air: Landing lag decreased from 17 to 14
Reason: This allows Neutral Air to be a better approach option, and makes Ganon safe when landing with the 1st hit of Neutral Air (but not safe enough to grant followups).

Forward Air: Auto-cancel window changed from <55 to <42
Reason: This allows Forward Air to auto-cancel in a full hop, so Ganon can finally use this move without suffering 22 frames of landing lag.

Special Attacks
Dark Dive (Up Special): Angle changed from 361° to 20°
Reason: Even though Dark Dive was buffed in terms of damage in 1.1.3, it is still one of Ganon's more useless moves. This changes Dark Dive to be a powerful semi-spike, giving it some utility against people trying to edge-guard Ganon (or for disrespect).

Grabs / Throws
Standing Grab: Hitbox size changed from 2.75 to 3.10
Reason: This increases Ganon's terrible grab range (the worst in the game) to a poor but usable one. This makes it whiff less during shield grab attempts. Ganon's dash and pivot grab I chose to keep unchanged, as their range is somewhat manageable.

Dash Grab: Grab hitbox duration changed from 11-12 to 10-11, FAF decreased from 45 to 41
Reason: This makes Ganon's dash grab come out a little quicker and end a little sooner, so that Ganondorf has a bit of an easier time against campers or spammers that like to hold shield.

Pummel: Damage increased from 3% to 4%
Reason: Considering that Ganon can usually get at maximum two pummels in, this makes getting grabbed by him a bit more threatening.

Back Throw: BKB increased from 30 to 60
Reason: This makes Back Throw a solid kill option at about 130%, giving him an actual kill throw. This, again, is a buff to makes his grabs more threatening.

Up Throw: Second hit damage increased from 3% to 5%
Reason: This gives Up Throw some utility as an alternate kill throw on platforms. The damage also amounts to 12%, which makes it a decent damage dealer similar to Forward Throw.

Other
Run Speed: Increase from 1.218 to 1.312
Reason: This makes Ganon run at the same speed as Dr. Mario, which allows him to punish and follow-up better for combos.

Air Speed: Increase from .79 to .88
Reason: This slightly improves horizontal recovery and neutral game. It allows Ganon to fully capitalize on his powerful aerials, which when combined with better aerial approach buffs would give him a better time against campers.

 

[Entropy X]

Are there any plans of bringing back wavedashing and L-canceling?