Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Lorde]

https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/741868216067051521

boi, looks like somebody is trash talking us

then maybe you should stop with these awful fan-made balancing efforts

 

[MarioMeteor]

Nah I'll stick around actually because I'm sure I can help the OP in some way.

And you can't think of a more pleasant way to do that? Cause as is you're causing him or her more harm than good.

 

[RedMarf78]

A lot of people complained about the Diddy buffs before you, the modder had already stated that it wasn't final and that he'd probably take it out. With this in mind its understandable why some of the people here are upset. You kinda just came in, made a few jokes about a matter that had already been addressed and then there was the "do you even know who I am"... Anyway, I think we've confirmed that basically no one in this thread thinks that Diddy buffs are a great idea so it'd be better if we just moved past the matter entirely.

 

[ZeusLink]

then maybe you should stop with these awful fan-made balancing efforts

The door is that way.

 

[Deleted member]

then maybe you should stop with these awful fan-made balancing efforts

wow r00d

 

[Slayonettaz]

With Zelda and Palutena being touched on, I'm totally content with all the low-tiered characters that I play, but I figured I'd touch on a few things for Game + Watch since he hasn't been mentioned at all. I know that he's someone that's low-tier mostly due to lack of representation but I feel like a few things could be touched on. Note that this is my first time trying to suggest technical changes like this so I don't know how many lines I might be crossing as far as possibly breaking a character goes (especially as far as frame data is concerned) but I still wanted to give it a shot.

Spoiler: G+W Changes

Attributes:

• Dash increased from 1.5264 to 1.553 (Brawl's value) With the Walk and Air Speed buffs, I figure he might as well still have the faster dash. I don't really mind his current dash as he is fast, but it seemed like an arbitrary change to make between games.

Ground Attacks:

• Reduce endlag on Up-Tilt. Right now, there's a pretty big punish window in regards to other tilts when whiffed. I don't think dropping it from 14 frames to 8 frames like Brawl is really necessary since the move is a lot stronger than Brawl, but maybe knock off 3-4 frames.
• Revert Up-Tilt's knockback angle to 100 degrees instead of 115. This was changed in 1.0.6 and I feel like increasing its combo potential might be pretty cool. As it stands it can combo into itself and nair at low percents but that's all that I can think of at the top of my head.
• Reduce endlag on Down-Tilt drastically. It went from 10 frames to 29 frames between games. I think at the highest it should only be between 12 and 15 frames, definitely not 29. Down Tilt can get punished so easily and tbh isn't a move I like to use as it stands because it just isn't worth it.
• Reduce endlag on dash attack from 19 frames to around 12 or 15. It got nerfed damage-wize between games and went from 8 frames of lag to 19. Again, don't revert to Brawl since the nerf was probably imposed for a reason, but at least make it faster.
• Increase sweetspot on F-Smash to make it easier to land? (Don't know how strong this could make the move as while the damage values don't change, increased sweetspot means more consistent damage output) As it stands the sourspot is huge and out-prioritizes the sweetspot (according to SmashWiki though I'm not quite sure what this means by a gameplay standpoint.)
• Reduce endlag on D-Smash. I don't know the exact amount it has but it also got a bigger sourspot and a smaller, weaker sweetspot compared to Brawl. I feel like the sweetspot is still well placed though since it's at the edge of the hammers, so the hitboxes don't need to be changed, but I still feel like the move is too slow.

Aerials:

• Reduce endlag on Nair and Fair from 12 frames back to 9.
• Allow Nair to autocancel? (IDK if this is possible for you at the moment and it's also in a similar situation with F-Smash where I'm afraid doing this will make it too good of a move, in this case as a combo tool. )
• Buff Fair's damage output to be between Brawl and Smash 4's (which seems to be the common theme here in this list.) That means don't make it a ridiculously strong attack that deals 16% and kills early, but don't leave it as weak as it is. I'd say round the damage up to an even 12% compared to 11.5 and increase its kill potential on stage that way it can viably kill before 150%. My only concern is how early will doing that make it kill off stage? It's already a useful edgeguarding tool and I can imagine that increasing its knockback could make its potential really scary and annoying.
• Buff Bair's damage output between Brawl and Smash 4's. I think that with it connecting a lot better here, 15% is too much, however making it do 10 or 11% compared to the 9 that it does now would be great. Also possibly cut off the endlag from 19 frames to about 14 or 15.
• Buff Dair's weak hitbox back up to 6% instead of 3.5. The strong hitbox is just fine where it is, but the weak one feels too weak. Also cut off some endlag but not too much since there still has to be risk to using the move just like the other Stall-then-Falls. (15 frames is way to lenient but 29 is too harsh I feel like 22-24 would be a good middleground.)

Specials:

• If possible maybe give Oil Panic the ability to stall again? Obviously not to Bucket Braking extremes, but still let it stall you. It does do it a little bit but I'm thinking make it Reflector/PSI Magnet level of stall, especially since Oil Panic comes out much slower than both of those moves anyways so it isn't nearly as spammable (and stall-spamming gets really easy to punish anyways so it doesn't feel like a big issue.)

Resharing since there was no feedback on these ideas and I've seen some other people mentioning that G+W should be buffed in this thread without suggesting any actual changes. I'd love to know what you guys think.

 

[RedMarf78]

If you want to give nair 9 frame of landing lag does it really need to autocancel as well? Also fair never had 9 frames of landing lag. I think it'd be better to lower nair's landing lag and just make fair autocancel. I feel that fair should do 14% of damage and that all hits of Bair should do 3 damage totaling to 12%. 14% on fair makes it deal knockback between that of of roy's fair and ike's fair. Bair doesn't need an endlag reduction, 19 frames of endlag is already amazing. My only other concern with your changes is downsmash,; the move does have a small sweespot but it already had VERY little lag for a smash attack. Making the sweetspot a bit bigger would probably be more useful than reducing the endlag on an attack that's already virtually unpunishable. Finally Game and watch could use some better air acceleration.

PS: the thing with f-smashes sourspot outprioritizing the sweetspot means that if a sourspot and sweetspot hitbox hits the opponent at the same time the game will make the opponent get hit by the sourspot.

 

[Slayonettaz]

If you want to give nair 9 frame of landing lag does it really need to autocancel as well? Also fair never had 9 frames of landing lag. I think it'd be better to lower nair's landing lag and just make fair autocancel. I feel that fair should do 14% of damage and that all hits of Bair should do 3 damage totaling to 12%. 14% on fair makes it deal knockback between that of of roy's fair and ike's fair. Bair doesn't need an endlag reduction, 19 frames of endlag is already amazing. My only other concern with your changes is downsmash,; the move does have a small sweespot but it already had VERY little lag for a smash attack. Making the sweetspot a bit bigger would probably be more useful than reducing the endlag on an attack that's already virtually unpunishable. Finally Game and watch could use some better air acceleration.

PS: the thing with f-smashes sourspot outprioritizing the sweetspot means that if a sourspot and sweetspot hitbox hits the opponent at the same time the game will make the opponent get hit by the sourspot.

Thank you for your input! It's actually really helpful. I don't know framedata stuff super in depth so I wasn't exactly sure how drastic my changes were. Thank you for explaining your concerns. They all do make a lot of sense and I like the idea of reducing nair's landing lag and autocanceling fair instead. I also like the proposed damage changes on fair and bair that you made. As for Dsmash, I can see keeping it's endlag the same and increasing sweetspot size since you are right about it probably being more useful. Thanks again!

 

[Radical Larry]

MarioMeteor Ganondorf having a frame 3 jab isn't overkill when he had it in Super Smash Bros. Melee. His FAF is only 1 frame above Melee's, and is only slightly stronger since there's no suggested changes to damage. Even if the damage was nerfed, it's still have to be a powerful jab at around 7% to 8% damage, like Melee. Now there may be a little worry on it being overpowering to shields; however, Ganondorf's electric properties on his attacks will stall him enough for an opponent to get away.

Having a Jab at Frame 3, FAF 20 is certainly fast, but it is now even more viable as a jab as it can compete with others.

 

[ZeusLink]

I never knew Ganon has a jab that fast. But, apparently, 85% of his moves have the same frame data as Falcon's.

 

[Radical Larry]

His jab was that ridiculously fast before Brawl came, where it was...well, it's unusable like Ganondorf.
And in Melee, Ganondorf's Jab dealt 8% damage on the body and 7% at the tip, so having him deal 8/8/10% from arm to tip in the 1.1.7 mod wouldn't be unreasonable.

Now if one looks at the frame data, they'll notice that Ganondorf's Jab that I suggested is as almost fast as Diddy's D-Tilt, but due to electric properties, it's not going to have the same exact speed obviously on hit. But due to its much lower FAF, Ganondorf can now link into attacks far better than he once would.

Spoiler: If his Jab was his Neutral Aerial

This isn't overpowered at all.

 

[Derpnaster]

I'm not sure giving Ganondorf a combo game is a good idea. He already can kill anyone in the roster in three hits minimum on a good read. If anything his only real flaw is his recovery which just needs to refresh his double jump on a wiz kick to make it work from a distance.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm not sure giving Ganondorf a combo game is a good idea. He already can kill anyone in the roster in three hits minimum on a good read. If anything his only real flaw is his recovery which just needs to refresh his double jump on a wiz kick to make it work from a distance.

And his garbage frame data and mobility. But yeah, if Ganondorf is going to combo people, it has to come at the expense of some of his power.

 

[Derpnaster]

And his garbage frame data and mobility. But yeah, if Ganondorf is going to combo people, it has to come at the expense of some of his power.

Not just some, quite a bit actually. We should be treating Ganon link Falcon if we're going to give him combo game. Much of Falcon's stuff does low damage (Relatively) with a very good combo game and strong finishes.

Ganon if we're going to go the route of giving him combos, should have similar traits, low individual damage, but combo game that hurts.

 

[ZeusLink]

Falcon = Ganondorf with Falcon's attributes and a knee Forward Aerial.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf was made to be a slowpoke to balance out his powerful attack strength, but in the speed oriented world of Smash Bros., this isn't exactly a favorable playstyle for a fighter to be having.

 

[Derpnaster]

And even then his burst speed isn't that bad. Yes you have to play a very patient game, but he really rewards you for it.

Ganondorf was made to be a slowpoke to balance out his powerful attack strength, but in the speed oriented world of Smash Bros., this isn't exactly a favorable playstyle for a fighter to be having.

Every Link main feels you there, amazing character, just a little too slow for the meta

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ganondorf was made to be a slowpoke to balance out his powerful attack strength, but in the speed oriented world of Smash Bros., this isn't exactly a favorable playstyle for a fighter to be having.

Well said. It's the reason why most heavyweights are garbage. If you ask me, they should take a page out of Ike's book when it comes to balancing heavyweights. He's just the right combination of speed and strength.

Not just some, quite a bit actually. We should be treating Ganon link Falcon if we're going to give him combo game. Much of Falcon's stuff does low damage (Relatively) with a very good combo game and strong finishes.

Ganon if we're going to go the route of giving him combos, should have similar traits, low individual damage, but combo game that hurts.

Falcon's attacks do really high damage, actually. His forward smash does 19% uncharged to give you an idea.

 

[Derpnaster]

High damage for his finishers, but his primary combo moves, Nair, Uair,Jab, etc do far less damage than his clone. Which if you think about it makes sense. Lower damage and lower knockback means you can rack up damage and better position your opponent to finish them off with his powerful moves earlier because you dragged them to the edge.

 

[ZeusLink]

Link's a combination of heavyweight, projectiles, and disjointed range, which is pretty cool in my opinion. Still, I'm the least bit confused why he's lighter than Ike.

 

[Derpnaster]

Link's a combination of heavyweight, projectiles, and disjointed range, which is pretty cool in my opinion. Still, I'm the least bit confused why he's lighter than Ike.

I honestly think it's a tradition, Link has literally not changed how much he weighs since 64, he's been 104 units, ironically enough the same as Falcon, those two actually work really well in doubles together, and I just don't think anyone wanted to change it

 

[MarioMeteor]

High damage for his finishers, but his primary combo moves, Nair, Uair,Jab, etc do far less damage than his clone. Which if you think about it makes sense. Lower damage and lower knockback means you can rack up damage and better position your opponent to finish them off with his powerful moves earlier because you dragged them to the edge.

Falcon's up air and down throw do 11% and 6%, respectively. To compare that to another combo-oriented character, Mario's up air and down throw do 7% and 5%, respectively. Zero Suit Samus' up air and down throw do 8% and 7%. Do you see where I'm going with this? For a character focused around combos, Falcon's moves do a lot of damage. Obviously not as much as Ganondorf, who was meant to be stronger, but still a hell of a lot.

 

[Derpnaster]

Falcon's up air and down throw do 11% and 6%, respectively. To compare that to another combo-oriented character, Mario's up air and down throw do 7% and 5%, respectively. Zero Suit Samus' up air and down throw do 8% and 7%. Do you see where I'm going with this? For a character focused around combos, Falcon's moves do a lot of damage. Obviously not as much as Ganondorf, who was meant to be stronger, but still a hell of a lot.

Oh I'm not going to deny that, I fight a Falcon main regularly. I've come to respect the character. But in the context of Ganondorf which I now realize I failed to clarify he was the context, Falcon has a fairly low damage output. Being honest I compart Falcon's output to Link's, it's strange but they both can get you to kill percents just as fast it's just different how they go about it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well said. It's the reason why most heavyweights are garbage. If you ask me, they should take a page out of Ike's book when it comes to balancing heavyweights. He's just the right combination of speed and strength.

At least Bowser is a fast runner, though this doesn't change the fact that he's a huge target. The same thing apples to Donkey Kong as well, but unlike Bowser, Donkey Kong has good mobility for his walk speed and air speed, along with an above average run speed value.

 

[MarioMeteor]

At least Bowser is a fast runner, though this doesn't change the fact that he's a huge target. The same thing apples to Donkey Kong as well, but unlike Bowser, Donkey Kong has good mobility for his walk speed and air speed, along with an above average run speed value.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Donkey Kong, he's decent as well. I used Ike as an example because he's most likely the best heavyweight, with the exception of Falcon. That's what I think, anyway.

 

[ZeusLink]

At least Bowser is a fast runner, though this doesn't change the fact that he's a huge target. The same thing apples to Donkey Kong as well, but unlike Bowser, Donkey Kong has good mobility for his walk speed and air speed, along with an above average run speed value.

Don't forget DK's frame data in that equation.

 

[Derpnaster]

Technically if you use 99 units as the minimum for being a heavyweight Cloud is the best heavy. However I just call him a chunky midweight.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In terms of the best super heavy fighter, Donkey Kong is pretty much up there for his speed and attack power, though his recovery is lacking in terms of vertical mobility.

 

[Derpnaster]

Yeah DK has it there. I'd say Bowswer is a distant second with Ganon being third, if only because he doesn't have to worry about mechanics as much, DDD and Zard are about even in my book

 

[MarioMeteor]

Actually, I retract my former statement about Ike being the best heavyweight because I just remembered Ryu.

 

[Radical Larry]

So people say Ganondorf can't have a mobility buff in this mod?
So why not have him at a 1.4 running speed and a 0.85 aerial speed?

He'll be 9th worst in running speed [or 8th if Link isn't buffed for the mod] and 5th worst in aerial speed.
That mobility buff would make his combo game better without breaking it and would improve his recovery.

Hell, let me just tell you that his aerial speed in Brawl was 0.84...
Please tell me how Ganondorf having THOSE speeds is a bad idea?

And hell, I even suggested Ganondorf have a walk speed of 1.
That does nothing, either.

Spoiler: Link

Running Speed Increased: 1.3944 => 1.55
Air Speed Increased: 0.88 => 0.92
Gravity Decreased: 0.096 => 0.093
Link Gains the Wall Jumping Ability
Jumpsquat Frames Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames

Jab Attack 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 5
Jab Attack 1 FAF Decreased: 28 Frames => 21 Frames
Jab Attack 2 FAF Decreased: 21 Frames => 12 Frames
Jab Attack 3 Damage Increased: 5% => 6%

Dash Attack Start-Up Decreased: Frame 20 => Frame 16
Dash Attack FAF Decreased: 57 Frames => 45 Frames
Dash Attack Damage Decreased: 14/13/12% => 12/11/10%

Forward Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 15 => Frame 13
Forward Tilt FAF Decreased: 38 Frames => 31 Frames
Forward Tilt Damage Decreased: 13% => 10%
Up Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 8 => Frame 7
Up Tilt FAF Decreased: 36 Frames => 32 Frames
Up Tilt Damage Decreased: 9% => 7%
Down Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 11 => Frame 9
Down Tilt FAF Decreased: 29 Frames => 25 Frames
Down Tilt Damage Decreased: 11% => 9%
Down Tilt Meteor Hitbox Changes:

Hitbox Position Extended to the Entire Sword so that Link can be capable of efficiently meteoring opponents.
Hitbox Y Position Moved Down by 2 Units so 2 Frame Punishes can also be an efficient thing, as well as hitting opponents who hand on the ledge.​

Forward Smash Hit 1 Tipper Hitbox Extended to Entire Sword.
Forward Smash Hit 2 FAF Heavily Decreased: 68 Frames => 49 Frames
Forward Smash Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 89 KBG => 100 KBG
Forward Smash Hit 2 Damage Decreased: 13/13/12/12% => 11/11/10/10%
Up Smash Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 9
Up Smash Hits 1, 2 and 3 link up faster:

Up Smash Hit 1 is Frame 9-14, second hit comes out to 18-21, third hit comes out 25-30​

Up Smash FAF Decreased: 78 Frames => 61 Frames
Up Smash Hit 3 Damage Decreased: 11/11/10/9% => 9/9/8/7%
Down Smash Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 9 => Frame 7
Down Smash Hit 2 Knockback Increased: 80 Knockback => 90 Knockback
Down Smash Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 63 KBG => 70 KBG

Back Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 4% => 6%
Back Throw Knockback Increased: 50 Knockback => 60 Knockback
Back Throw Knockback Growth Increased: 110 KBG => 130 KBG
Down Throw Angle Changed: 83 Degrees => 90 Degrees
Down Throw Knockback Growth Decreased: 85 KBG => 75 KBG

Neutral Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 5
Neutral Aerial Clean Hit, Front Damage Increased: 11% => 13%
Neutral Aerial Auto-Cancel Frame Window Decreased: Frame 36 => Frame 32
Forward Aerial Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 14 => Frame 12
Forward Aerial Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 100 KBG => 150 KBG
Back Aerial Hit 1 Damage Increased: 3% => 5%
Back Aerial Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 6%
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Damage Increased: 15% => 22%
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Hitbox Length Extended: Frames 14-17 => Frames 14-20
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Angle Changed: 270 Degrees => 83 Degrees
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Knockback Growth Increased: 80 KBG => 100 KBG
Grab Aerial Landing Lag Decreased: 8 Frames => 1 Frame

Gale Boomerang Start-Up Decreased: Frame 27 => Frame 19
Gale Boomerang Early Damage Decreased: 7% => 6%
Spin Attack Grounded Hitbox Changes:

Spin Attack remains a multi-hit on shields, and does not disappear after 1 hit.
Early Hitbox [Front] Damage Increase: 14/14/11.2% => 16/16/13.8%
Early Hitbox [Front] Shield Damage Added: +20%
Early Hitbox [Back] Damage Increase: 12/12/9.6% => 14/14/10.4%
Late Hitbox [Front] Damage Increase: 9/9/7.2% => 11/11/9.1%​

Spin Attack Grounded Back Hit, Late Hit and Latest Hit Angle Change: 43/43/361 Degrees => 10/20/20 Degrees
Spin Attack Grounded FAF Decreased: 82 Frames => 72 Frames
Spin Attack Aerial Hits 2-8 Damage Increased: 2% => 3%

Explanations:
Mobility Buff: Now at an easily justifiable and modest setting, Link having a higher mobility would allow him to efficiently hit opponents and even chase them down. However, his mobility is not ridiculous [like I last made it], and he is still among the slower characters.

Gravity Change: Lower gravity, more height, better AC capabilities. Link would benefit from reaching falling speed a little later since he would be able to have higher jump, double jump and better recovery. While it is no drastic change, it certainly is indeed a transition to make Link a better aerial fighter.

Wall Jumping: Now call me crazy, but I'm kind of sick of seeing Link without a wall jump ability. Having Wall Jump in his arsenal would better his recovery going low, especially when he misses an attack and is sent much lower. As well, it'd aid Link's edge-guarding prowess by allowing him to hit opponents like never before.

Forward Smash 1 Always Tipper: Well, people who really hated the change made to F-Smash Hit 1 worry no more, as it can be a more viable kill move at any angle. Of course, this is only due to balancing purposes with the decreased FAF of the second hit, as well as the ridiculous new KBG of the same second hit.

Back Throw Change: Oh yes, a new kill move that's a Back Throw, as if we need more right...? Well...Link needs a viable kill throw option anyways. It's not like U-Throw's just going to do the trick for him. No, Back Throw dealing more damage, KB and KBG altogether could make it a viable kill move and would undoubtedly give Link a good chance at KO'ing the opponent with a throw, while also keeping his other throws [except D-Throw] unchanged.

Forward Aerial Hit 2 KBG Rise: Yeah, just putting it out there, since it's already harder to hit with the second hit of F-Air, and since it lacked the power of the first hit, giving it more power than the first hit like it should would make Link players want to hit that second hit for even earlier KOs. But then again, the first one's still so viable so...

Down Aerial Meteor Hitbox Redone: Probably the biggest change in this is Down Aerial's earliest hits no longer...well...being a meteor smash, but instead, the ultra-powerful hit it was back in Melee and Brawl. Dealing 22% damage, high knockback growth and more, who wouldn't want to enjoy hitting their opponent with D-Air now? Of course, the later hits still exist, but the 18% hitbox is indefinitely replaced with the 22% hitbox.

Spin Attack Shield Buster: Frustratingly enough, whenever a Spin Attack is blocked by a shield, it's that one hit and it's over. But now that cannot happen, for Link's Spin Attack hitbox doesn't disappear until the last hitbox finishes, thus making it hazard to shields and allowing Link to join the shield busting heavyweights. Of course, Link's rehit rate stays the same and once the opponent's hit, the knockback won't allow them to get hit. As a side note, yes, after the first hitbox comes out, the rest of Spin Attack is like Melee's Semi-Spike all over again.

Overall: Link would receive innumerable buffs to not only mobility, but also frame data, but of course, some damage has to be knocked down for him too while some damage was boosted. Overall, Link is a more versatile character with these changes and would definitely be an alarm clock to shield users, since his Spin Attack would not be fun to mess with. His other attacks are otherwise still very versatile, and he could even have a better combo game and a significantly better time KO'ing opponents if these changes were added. His attacks, too, would be safer overall. Who wouldn't want a better Link?

Spoiler: Dark Lord Ganondorf

Special Attribute: Resonating Darkness

Weight Heavily Increased: 113 => 125
Run Speed Increased: 1.218 => 1.4
Walk Speed Heavily Increased: 0.73 => 1
Air Speed Increased: 0.79 => 0.85
Gravity Decreased: 1.0784 => 0.9877
Jumpsquat Frames Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames

Jab Attack Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 3
Jab Attack FAF Decreased: 29 => 20

Dash Attack FAF Decreased: 38 => 32

Forward Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 7
Forward Tilt FAF Decreased: 40 => 33
Forward Tilt Damage Decreased: 13/12/12% => 11/10/10%
Up Tilt Windbox Reach Increased by 10 Units Behind Ganondorf
Up Tilt Sweetspot Hitbox Reach Increased by 7 Units Behind Ganondorf
Up Tilt Heavy Armor Added: Starts at Frame 6 and ends at Frame 93
Up Tilt Super Armor Added: Starts at Frame 6 and ends at Frame 93
Up Tilt Hitbox Startup Increased: Frame 81 => Frame 90
Up Tilt FAF Decreased: 115 => 105
Up Tilt Sweetspot Knockback Growth Heavily Increased: 80 KBG => 180 KBG
Down Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 8
Down Tilt FAF Decreased: 36 => 28
Down Tilt Damage Decreased: 13% => 11%

Forward Smash Start-Up Decreased: Frame 21 => Frame 19
Forward Smash FAF Decreased: 60 => 56
Up Smash New Hitbox Added:

Frames: 15-19
Damage: 15%
Knockback: 30 KB
Knockback Growth: 30 KBG
Angle: 90 Degrees​

All Grab Ranges [Except Dash Grab] Increased by 2 Units in front of Ganondorf [Includes Flame Choke and Dark Dive].
Dash Grab Range Increased by 3 Units in front of Ganondorf.

Forward Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 8% => 12%
Back Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 9%
Down Throw Angle Changed: 65 Degrees => 85 Degrees
Down Throw Knockback Growth Decreased: 50 => 30

Forward Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frame 14 => Frame 12
Forward Aerial Damage Decreased: 17/18% => 15/16%
Forward Aerial Auto-Cancel Window Shortened: Frame 55 => Frame 28

Grounded Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 30% => 35%
Grounded B-Reverse Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 38% => 40%
Aerial Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 38% => 42%
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 40% => 50%
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Knockback Heavily Increased: 40 Knockback => 300 Knockback
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Knockback Growth Heavily Increased: 100 KBG => 500 KBG
Grounded Flame Choke Damage Increased: 12% => 15%
Aerial Flame Choke Damage Increased: 15% => 17%
Dark Dive [Attack] Knockback Growth Increased: 90 KBG => 110 KBG

Explanations:
Resonating Darkness: Ganondorf's got three spots that deal different damage. Damage multipliers are akin to Bowser Jr's Clown Kart and Upper Hitbox. Ganondorf is dealt 0.2x damage if he's hit on his armor hitboxes, while it's normal anywhere else. This bumps up his survivability tenfold.

Up Tilt - Volcanic Cyclone: Somewhat slower to hit, but now it can suck opponents in on both sides, and the thing is, Ganondorf's attack hits on both sides now and has both Super and Heavy Armor on it, almost making him invincible right? Well...he can still get grabbed and his attack can be halted for a bit if he is attacked by an opponent. However, the attack is able to make the opponent's day somewhat of a living hell since it can KO at a very, very low damage now.

Up Smash Added Hitbox: His Up Smash is...well...slow. So why not speed it up while giving it more power too? Well, Ganondorf's Up Smash is almost like his Melee Up Smash [keyword: ALMOST], and has a new hitbox that links up to the second hit quite well. No repercussions here, actually. Just a newer, better attack.

Throw Attack Increase: Yes, Forward Throw is getting that kind of treatment, where it's getting a heavy damage increase. Dealing a total of 17%, it's not a throw to be messed with. Neither is Back Throw, which follows in Forward Throw's Footsteps, but is kind of potent if it becomes a kill throw.

Your Doom: The hardest attack to hit can be the most satisfying, right? Look, need I say more when I say that B-Reversed and if hit in mid-air, Warlock Punch becomes the most dangerous attack known to Smash? Of course...it's still going to be that hard to hit it anyways. It's not like Ganondorf's gained a huge jumping height boost or anything.

Overall: Ganondorf would have quite the hefty increase in some of his arsenal, and yes, some of his more...useless moves will gain some use, maybe. I mean, Up Tilt and Aerial B-Reversed WP might sound broken, but remember how hard it is to hit with them in the first place? It's actually very hard. There's some mobility buffs, frame data buffs and even some grab and throw buffs, but there are also damage nerfs to some attacks, and it comes with some attacks just having better frame data and less changes to their KB and KBG. If they had the same damage, they would be quite overpowering of course.

Overall, the two KO moves Ganondorf has are simply there for the fun of it, and are sort of like cosmetic effects, since the chances of hitting them aren't that high in the first place.

Please, read the Ganondorf mobility change suggestions again.

 

[Derpnaster]

That's the thing, Ganon DOESN'T HAVE A COMBO GAME (Pardon the use of caps I mean no disrespect)
His character is not one of Combos, setups and pressure, the Dorf play's a game of baiting, reads, and overall patience.
So why try to make a character something they aren't? If anything try to improve what makes them insane and only fix what would truly help them without breaking the concept. I don't think this mod was meant to be Project M the Smash 4 Edition, which honestly failed in regards to keeping characters true to their playstyle.

 

[RedMarf78]

Two things. First off I feel that it'd be kind of weird for characters like marth and Ganon to have the same jumpsquat length (I'm OK with him having a frane 6 jumpsquat though). Secondly, you might want to rethink the gravity change. Gravity effect the rate in which character reach their max fallspeed and thus the jump and shorthop height. Basically, by editing Ganon's gravity you're also changing his neutral game. If you already took that into account than you can ignore this part.

PS: Today I realized that Bowser has a really low fallspeed but really high gravity. He ends up dying earlier than fox vertically and scenarios like that are the entire reason that gravity was made to start effecting vertical knockback. What was nintendo thinking?

Ganon's downthrow can combo and so does dash attack. His combo game doesn't consistent of long strings but his raw damage output makes quite threatening. You're right, Ganon certainly isn't a combo oriented character but his playstyle does kind of need slight changes cause it's by default flawes. Ganon can't really be an effective bain and punish character the way he is now because against 2/3 of the cast (who have projectiles) he can't force them do anything unsafe most of the time. How is Ganon going to bait a Samus player into doing something if they're just shooting missiles from across the screen?

 

[MarioMeteor]

Two things. First off I feel that it'd be kind of weird for characters like marth and Ganon to have the same jumpsquat length (I'm OK with him having a frane 6 jumpsquat though). Secondly, you might want to rethink the gravity change. Gravity effect the rate in which character reach their max fallspeed and thus the jump and shorthop height. Basically, by editing Ganon's gravity you're also changing his neutral game. If you already took that into account than you can ignore this part.

PS: Today I realized that Bowser has a really low fallspeed but really high gravity. He ends up dying earlier than fox vertically and scenarios like that are the entire reason that gravity was made to start effecting vertical knockback. What was nintendo thinking?

Ganon's downthrow can combo and so does dash attack. His combo game doesn't consistent of long strings but his raw damage output makes quite threatening. But you're right Ganon certainly isn't a combo oriented character.

I imagine they were trying to make him feel as agile as he is in Mario, but while still keeping him bound to the rules of a heavyweight.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Actually, I retract my former statement about Ike being the best heavyweight because I just remembered Ryu.

Ryu is more difficult to use properly than Ike though, and from what I can recall, Ryu is the 3rd slowest walker in the game, and is slightly lighter than Link and Captain Falcon.

 

[Derpnaster]

Ryu is more difficult to use properly than Ike though, and from what I can recall, Ryu is the 3rd slowest walker in the game, and is slightly lighter than Link and Captain Falcon.

Correct, Link is actually more mobile than Ryu when everything is said and done(At least he is if you apply ATs and burst movement which Link is really good at). Which I find surprising, Ryu just has insane combo game akin to Greninja's in that it's nonlinear and downright strange to pull off. But very rewarding when it is, honestly I don't ever want to face the player that first masters Ryu, like ever.

Also speaking of Link and Ryu, they are apparently odballls when it comes to Fast Falls. Link gains + 90% of his fallspeed for a fast fall, Ryu however gains around + 40%, so there's that. Just a fun fact

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ryu is more difficult to use properly than Ike though, and from what I can recall, Ryu is the 3rd slowest walker in the game, and is slightly lighter than Link and Captain Falcon.

I wasn't talking about mobility or weight, I meant who the best heavyweight is. I still stand by that future heavyweights should be modeled after Ike, though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Another small suggestion for Ike that I kinda forgot about/have better information about now.

Ike's standing grab is kinda balls. For a character supposed to reply on it so much its tied for 6th worst in the game at 72 pixels. How about increasing its range to 78, bringing it in line with Marth/Lucina/Corrin? Maybe bump up Robin's from 74 to 78 as well, or maybe even put Robin's beyond the rest of the FE crew at 80. He is using magic after all to assist his grab. Roy should probably go up from 74 to 78, complements his playstyle in general.

Also guys just... keep in mind with all of this: you shouldn't be aiming to change a character's playing style no matter how well intended it is. That's how you annoy fans of those characters. Meaning Ganondorf should not be a combo machine. Should also avoid completely changing things from what the devs clearly seem to want for general archetypes. Meaning Roy should not be getting a bunch of auto-cancels: the faster more agile FE characters don't get them due to the wide range on aerials + speed combo they have. Roy is no exception to this. Ike, Corrin, and Robin are the slower ones, thus are the ones looked at more for that sort of thing. I don't think Roy should be getting an increased sword length either.

As a general example for Roy, who appears to be more aggressively designed (even if it doesn't work the greatest atm and should probably focus on using his fast speed options to set up traps), I'd look at improving his grabs. Not his throws necessarily (I believe the Marth/Lucina/Roy trio are supposed to have overall meh throws outside of okay Uthrows as stock caps which makes a fair amount of sense for their designs), but make all of his grabs have another active frame at the start. So instead of standing grab being active on 7-8 make it 6-8. On top of that, shave off the recovery of his grabs a tad. Not a lot, but say make his standing grab have a FAF of 28 instead of 30. Those kind of changes would compliment both playing him more aggressively (can punish shielding his moves a bit easier, doesn't have as large of window to punish him for attempting to grab) and trapping.

From there I would improve his pummel damage a tad (Kurogane doesn't have that info sadly so I can't get exact detail) to give the grab more purpose. He has small ranges for combos or at least traps, but outside of those ranges he can still at least chip in some good pummel damage and throw the opponent into a bad spot.

Beyond that: the mobility buffs are good and compliment both aggro and trapping. Fixing Dancing Blade and buffing Aerial Blazer is all good. Minor buffs to sweetspots to make the more safe is fine. I'm not entirely sold on the FAF/Auto-Cancel increases on his other moves or the Bthrow buff. Nor am I sold on the angle changes or BKB/KBG changes. I'd need somebody who uses Roy competitively to really say if those are good changes or not.

Instead what I'd look at is buffing Roy's Dash to Shield time (also known as Dash Length). He's in the FE group that has 17 frames as that time (Ike and Corrin are the only FE characters without that). I'd move both Roy and Robin out of that range. Roy still has a lot of speed and probably shouldn't have it improved too much, but buffing it to say 14 frames puts him in company with Ness and Pikachu. Robin I'd probably move to 13, where Toon Link, Link, Pit, and Dark Pit are.

Truthfully I'd also nerf Corrin's Dash to Shield time. No real reason why he should be tied for best in the game with Sheik at 8, doesn't really make sense for the character. Probably move it to the large chunk of characters at 11. Maybe 13, depends on how Dragon Lunge gets nerfed because that thing absolutely needs a tap from the nerf hammer.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Also speaking of Link and Ryu, they are apparently odballls when it comes to Fast Falls. Link gains + 90% of his fallspeed for a fast fall, Ryu however gains around + 40%, so there's that. Just a fun fact

Another oddball is Roy, where his his fast-falling speed is approximately 1.6111111x his falling speed, instead of the usual 1.6x.

 

[Derpnaster]

Another oddball is Roy, where his his fast-falling speed is approximately 1.6111111x his falling speed, instead of the usual 1.6x.

Huh, never knew that. It's not much but it's a difference. Would be funny if we changed fast fall speed on human characters to put them up with Link's speed of 3.02 or something like that seriously does that man keep the Iron Boots on standby just for fast falling?!