Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[MarioMeteor]

Another small suggestion for Ike that I kinda forgot about/have better information about now.

Ike's standing grab is kinda balls. For a character supposed to reply on it so much its tied for 6th worst in the game at 72 pixels. How about increasing its range to 78, bringing it in line with Marth/Lucina/Corrin? Maybe bump up Robin's from 74 to 78 as well, or maybe even put Robin's beyond the rest of the FE crew at 80. He is using magic after all to assist his grab. Roy should probably go up from 74 to 78, complements his playstyle in general.

Also guys just... keep in mind with all of this: you shouldn't be aiming to change a character's playing style no matter how well intended it is. That's how you annoy fans of those characters. Meaning Ganondorf should not be a combo machine. Should also avoid completely changing things from what the devs clearly seem to want for general archetypes. Meaning Roy should not be getting a bunch of auto-cancels: the faster more agile FE characters don't get them due to the wide range on aerials + speed combo they have. Roy is no exception to this. Ike, Corrin, and Robin are the slower ones, thus are the ones looked at more for that sort of thing. I don't think Roy should be getting an increased sword length either.

As a general example for Roy, who appears to be more aggressively designed (even if it doesn't work the greatest atm and should probably focus on using his fast speed options to set up traps), I'd look at improving his grabs. Not his throws necessarily (I believe the Marth/Lucina/Roy trio are supposed to have overall meh throws outside of okay Uthrows as stock caps which makes a fair amount of sense for their designs), but make all of his grabs have another active frame at the start. So instead of standing grab being active on 7-8 make it 6-8. On top of that, shave off the recovery of his grabs a tad. Not a lot, but say make his standing grab have a FAF of 28 instead of 30. Those kind of changes would compliment both playing him more aggressively (can punish shielding his moves a bit easier, doesn't have as large of window to punish him for attempting to grab) and trapping.

From there I would improve his pummel damage a tad (Kurogane doesn't have that info sadly so I can't get exact detail) to give the grab more purpose. He has small ranges for combos or at least traps, but outside of those ranges he can still at least chip in some good pummel damage and throw the opponent into a bad spot.

Beyond that: the mobility buffs are good and compliment both aggro and trapping. Fixing Dancing Blade and buffing Aerial Blazer is all good. Minor buffs to sweetspots to make the more safe is fine. I'm not entirely sold on the FAF/Auto-Cancel increases on his other moves or the Bthrow buff. Nor am I sold on the angle changes or BKB/KBG changes. I'd need somebody who uses Roy competitively to really say if those are good changes or not.

Instead what I'd look at is buffing Roy's Dash to Shield time (also known as Dash Length). He's in the FE group that has 17 frames as that time (Ike and Corrin are the only FE characters without that). I'd move both Roy and Robin out of that range. Roy still has a lot of speed and probably shouldn't have it improved too much, but buffing it to say 14 frames puts him in company with Ness and Pikachu. Robin I'd probably move to 13, where Toon Link, Link, Pit, and Dark Pit are.

Truthfully I'd also nerf Corrin's Dash to Shield time. No real reason why he should be tied for best in the game with Sheik at 8, doesn't really make sense for the character. Probably move it to the large chunk of characters at 11. Maybe 13, depends on how Dragon Lunge gets nerfed because that thing absolutely needs a tap from the nerf hammer.

So in short, you don't want to address any of Roy's flaws and you want him to remain subpar.

 

[Radical Larry]

For fun, I kind of want to know what would happen if Link's Fast Falling speed was 4.8 or 6.4. I'm betting that Link would fall so fast that he'd be nigh impossible to keep in the air.

 

[ZeusLink]

If anything, his jumpsquat would be pretty long. Although, a character like Link holds so many things, it feels kinda rational.

 

[Derpnaster]

For fun, I kind of want to know what would happen if Link's Fast Falling speed was 4.8 or 6.4. I'm betting that Link would fall so fast that he'd be nigh impossible to keep in the air.

Not really, It'd mean he'd have a 100 to 200% increase in his normal fall speed whenever someone taps down.
It'd be melee all over again for us Link players. Not something I want to see.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For fun, I kind of want to know what would happen if Link's Fast Falling speed was 4.8 or 6.4. I'm betting that Link would fall so fast that he'd be nigh impossible to keep in the air.

The Metal Box can potentially pull this off though, since it does increase your fighter's falling speed. Give Fox the Anchor Jump bonus effect and the Metal Box, and he'd most likely fall down at a ridiculously fast rate, especially with the additional increased gravity bonus.

 

[ZeusLink]

Link's Up Special will be Smash 64 all over again for us Link players. Good luck attempting short hop auto-cancels.

 

[Derpnaster]

Oh lord no, not the 64 spin attack. There was a reason I stayed in the center of the stage at all costs in that game, wasn't worth never being able to recover.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So in short, you don't want to address any of Roy's flaws and you want him to remain subpar.

You quite clearly didn't read a single thing I said.

Keeping the damage buffs to his sweet spots like I said to do? Improves his shield safety, improves his abilities.

Improving his mobility, dash to shield? Improves his ability to be aggressive (which is how he was designed), improves his abilities.

Fixing Dancing Blade and Aerial Blazer? Do I really need to mention this one?

Improving his grab and pummel lets him punish you easier for shielding his stuff and lets him tack on more raw damage. These are all changes that complement his design particularly since his sweetspots have more shieldstun due to increased damage.

Notice how the Ike and Mewtwo changes went down: they didn't overhaul their designs. They fixed what was already there and improved it within that design. And two bottom 5 characters went to mid tier and high tier because of it.

Fan patches that completely change character designs do not take off. I'm sorry but that's just the blunt reality. You alienate the previous fans of the character, and most people are just going to stick with the characters they already use. Significantly changing how moves flow together does not make people happy, which is what some of those angle changes and knockback changes are doing. Nobody wants to have to awkwardly relearn characters between the base version and a fan patch and going back and forth between the two, and this patch ain't aiming to be the next Project M.

All changes have to keep that critical fact in mind. Different launch angles for moves and different spacing for a character's entire moveset is a whole lot different from tweaking mobility and safety of moves.

 

[Eugene Wang]

A design that falls apart as soon as the opponent applies something common across much of the cast is not one that can be balanced on unmodified. The best you'll end up with down that road is some polarized abombination. *Gif of Brawl Dedede chaingrab*

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's Up Special will be Smash 64 all over again for us Link players. Good luck attempting short hop auto-cancels.

Oh lord no, not the 64 spin attack. There was a reason I stayed in the center of the stage at all costs in that game, wasn't worth never being able to recover.

Gravity is a hell of a *****.

The Metal Box can potentially pull this off though, since it does increase your fighter's falling speed. Give Fox the Anchor Jump bonus effect and the Metal Box, and he'd most likely fall down at a ridiculously fast rate, especially with the additional increased gravity bonus.

Of course, now I wonder what'd happen if Link got a 45 fast fall.

 

[Derpnaster]

A design that falls apart as soon as the opponent applies something common across much of the cast is not one that can be balanced on unmodified. The best you'll end up with down that road is some polarized abombination. *Gif of Brawl Dedede chaingrab*

I think what we're all missing is a universal philosophy for this balance patch.

A base mindset to look at this with would help clear a lot of misunderstanding and arguments.

I think a good one would be not to look to rework characters, rather make character concepts work. Keep the changes true to the character as they are in the vanilla game, but improve them so they are more viable or safer, not necessarily easier

 

[SageX3]

Here are my changes for Falco. Please check them out. I would really like for Falco Fall to become a good character again.

• I suggest increasing his dash speed to 1.6. That way he is is as fast as Mario, Ryu , and Bayonetta. Characters that are also focused around combos.
• Increase his air speed to 1 to allow better follow ups.
• For his up throw decrease the KBG by 20. To allow for more consistent follow up.
• For Fair decrease landing lag to 12 frames and increase the auto cancel window. This will make Fair more useful as an approach tool, while still being punishable.
• And now for the big elephant in the room, his dair. It is God awful. It is teribble as a spike because of how slow it is. And it doesn't have the utility of being and approach tool and defense opinion as it used too. I need some help on fixing this. Because it is soo easy to make it too strong. So I suggest increasing the active hit box to 16 frames. Deacresing the start up by 20 frames, I'm not sure on this value though. And make it auto cancel from a short hop. Hopefully these changes allow for him to use it as a more effective approach tool and combo move, while allowing it to still be punished on startup,but not as easily as before, and be an ok defense opinion.
• For his last change I want to touch up on another staple move of his, his blaster. I say just decrease the end lag by 40. This would make it an effective mid range tool, but still allow it to be punished up close and not allow Falco to win in any projectile fight against any zoning character.
• Really the entire point of this was to give Falco an actual playstyle. In Smash4 Falco has no specific style, which would make him a Jack of all trades. Until you realize that he sucks at nearly everything. His projectile is garbage, so is his speed ,recovery, aproach, and defence. And then you realize there are characters that do everything he does but much much better. Such as Ryu, Mario, and even Bayonetta. In Falco's current state he has absolutely no reason to be in this game, other than to give Star Fox another representative, other than Wolf. So please consider these changes hopefully they help him out. Because right now he is awful.
• P.S. very sorry for going on a rant. It's just that I love this character sooooo much. So yea. Bye

 

[ZeusLink]

Yeah, I'll admit, playing as Falco is hell, even fighting against Ganondorf. If he was able to short hop laser in Sm4sh, he'd be high tier in no time.

 

[SageX3]

Yeah, I'll admit, playing as Falco is hell, even fighting against Ganondorf. If he was able to short hop laser in Sm4sh, he'd be high tier in no time.

You think playing as him is hell, try maiming him it's a living nightmare.

 

[ZeusLink]

If you mean "mained", then yes, I used to have him as one of my pocket mains. It's sad, really to see the change from being super scary at offense to whatever the hell he is (mix-up, probably?) in Sm4sh.

 

[SageX3]

If you mean "mained", then yes, I used to have him as one of my pocket mains. It's sad, really to see the change from being super scary at offense to whatever the hell he is (mix-up, probably?) in Sm4sh.

Yea it sucks bad. I played him in every game but 64 for obvious reasons. I heard that your supposed to use jab and grab as mix ups, but I don't get It.

 

[Derpnaster]

One way I see it as a Link main is jab is not really a bread and butter tool for Link, it's a get off me tool or a quick setup tool since his frame canceled jab can be used to set up a read situation.

In think Falco is designed at least with his jab in the same way. Try frame canceling his jab with tilts or even a grab and running form there.

That said I really don't want 20 frames taken off his blaster's endlag, we'd be back to the melee blaster which was speaking honestly, broken. The current blaster seems to operate as more of a poking tool than a bread and butter neutral tool, which is what your changes suggest you want. Personally, I don't think Falco needs that. Give him a more Falcon Like neutral with a good grab and painful punish moves and we can probably work within the game itself.

In short, please don't bring back melee Falco no one wants to deal with that.

Edit, to be constructive with this.
What if we added a slight stun effect to the blaster. or sped up the projectile speed, right now I agree, it's pretty bad. I mean I use Link so Blasters aren't exactly a problem (Praise the most broken passive effect in smash) but I can see why having it be so slow is bad.

So a good change might be.
Blaster end lag 10 frames removed
Damage increased to 6.5%
Stun effect added for 15 frames

 

[SageX3]

One way I see it as a Link main is jab is not really a bread and butter tool for Link, it's a get off me tool or a quick setup tool since his frame canceled jab can be used to set up a read situation.

In think Falco is designed at least with his jab in the same way. Try frame canceling his jab with tilts or even a grab and running form there.

That said I really don't want 20 frames taken off his blaster's endlag, we'd be back to the melee blaster which was speaking honestly, broken. The current blaster seems to operate as more of a poking tool than a bread and butter neutral tool, which is what your changes suggest you want. Personally, I don't think Falco needs that. Give him a more Falcon Like neutral with a good grab and painful punish moves and we can probably work within the game itself.

In short, please don't bring back melee Falco no one wants to deal with that.

20 frames won't put him anywhere near Melee status plus in Melee he could shoot 2 at a time. If it's not supposed to be apart of his neutral then where does it fit. It's an awful poking tool, it shoots extremely slow, is easy to avoid, and takes way too long to holster making it very punishable. It's really only good against slow characters and against fast characters you get punished easily from mid to full stage. And it's soo easy to power shield it's unbelievable.

One way I see it as a Link main is jab is not really a bread and butter tool for Link, it's a get off me tool or a quick setup tool since his frame canceled jab can be used to set up a read situation.

In think Falco is designed at least with his jab in the same way. Try frame canceling his jab with tilts or even a grab and running form there.

That said I really don't want 20 frames taken off his blaster's endlag, we'd be back to the melee blaster which was speaking honestly, broken. The current blaster seems to operate as more of a poking tool than a bread and butter neutral tool, which is what your changes suggest you want. Personally, I don't think Falco needs that. Give him a more Falcon Like neutral with a good grab and painful punish moves and we can probably work within the game itself.

In short, please don't bring back melee Falco no one wants to deal with that.

Edit, to be constructive with this.
What if we added a slight stun effect to the blaster. or sped up the projectile speed, right now I agree, it's pretty bad. I mean I use Link so Blasters aren't exactly a problem (Praise the most broken passive effect in smash) but I can see why having it be so slow is bad.

So a good change might be.
Blaster end lag 10 frames removed
Damage increased to 6.5%
Stun effect added for 15 frames

I could see those changes being good maybe some more frames off the end lag but right now I don't know how much that would help.

 

[Derpnaster]

The idea is give him the ZSS combo starter.

 

[SageX3]

The idea is give him the ZSS combo starter.

I could see that but in his current state he dosnt have the mobility required to convert off of it mid stage and it would be too punishable close range. I say just reduce the endlag and maybe increase the damage and add a slight stun increase to fix his blaster.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You quite clearly didn't read a single thing I said.

Keeping the damage buffs to his sweet spots like I said to do? Improves his shield safety, improves his abilities.

Improving his mobility, dash to shield? Improves his ability to be aggressive (which is how he was designed), improves his abilities.

Fixing Dancing Blade and Aerial Blazer? Do I really need to mention this one?

Improving his grab and pummel lets him punish you easier for shielding his stuff and lets him tack on more raw damage. These are all changes that complement his design particularly since his sweetspots have more shieldstun due to increased damage.

Notice how the Ike and Mewtwo changes went down: they didn't overhaul their designs. They fixed what was already there and improved it within that design. And two bottom 5 characters went to mid tier and high tier because of it.

Fan patches that completely change character designs do not take off. I'm sorry but that's just the blunt reality. You alienate the previous fans of the character, and most people are just going to stick with the characters they already use. Significantly changing how moves flow together does not make people happy, which is what some of those angle changes and knockback changes are doing. Nobody wants to have to awkwardly relearn characters between the base version and a fan patch and going back and forth between the two, and this patch ain't aiming to be the next Project M.

All changes have to keep that critical fact in mind. Different launch angles for moves and different spacing for a character's entire moveset is a whole lot different from tweaking mobility and safety of moves.

Roy does not need to be more aggressive, because Roy is aggressive already. What Roy needs is something that will actually fix some of his massive weaknesses, like say his poor range and how unsafe he is on shield, or how his attributes work against him more often than not. Making a fast and aggressive character faster and more aggressive is not going to help much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Derpnaster]

I could see that but in his current state he dosnt have the mobility required to convert off of it mid stage and it would be too punishable close range. I say just reduce the endlag and maybe increase the damage and add a slight stun increase to fix his blaster.

From my experience on the receiving end a stun would be very powerful and cutting end lag would make Flaco have a decent approach game since I don't really see Falco (Just from his personality and go at it attitude) having a god tier neutral but use his powerful smashes and tilts to just body his opponet into submission

 

[Demonic Steak]

Spoiler: Bowser

Slightly decreased landing lag on Forward Air
Significantly decreased landing lag on Back Air (Bring it down by 10-12 frames at the least)
Increase mobility of Whirling Fortress on the ground and height gained in the air
Down Air has intangibility on the spikes
Fire Breath has less endlag
Increased knockback for Down Throw and sends opponents at the same angle as Sonic's Down Throw

Spoiler: R.O.B.

Increased knockback on Up Throw
Decreased knockback on Up Air
Slightly reduced startup on Neutral Air and Back Air
Slightly increased knockback on Forward Smash and Down Smash
Reduced distance that uncharged Gyro travels (don't know if this is possible to change, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyways)

Spoiler: Yoshi

All grabs have reduced startup
Drastically increased knockback on up throw (becomes a kill throw)
Increased damage on Neutral Air and final hit of Back Air

Spoiler: Mewtwo

Slightly reduced startup and endlag on Confusion
Slightly bigger hitbox for the lower part of Down Smash
Slightly more weight

 

[SageX3]

From my experience on the receiving end a stun would be very powerful and cutting end lag would make Flaco have a decent approach game since I don't really see Falco (Just from his personality and go at it attitude) having a god tier neutral but use his powerful smashes and tilts to just body his opponet into submission

But it could be too powerful. I mean having a stun is one thing but being able to spam them out at a decent speed could be op or/and be downright annoying to all hell. I'm still not on board with a stun, although it would improve him greatly.

 

[SageX3]

Spoiler: Bowser

Slightly decreased landing lag on Forward Air
Significantly decreased landing lag on Back Air (Bring it down by 10-12 frames at the least)
Increase mobility of Whirling Fortress on the ground and height gained in the air
Down Air has intangibility on the spikes
Fire Breath has less endlag
Increased knockback for Down Throw and sends opponents at the same angle as Sonic's Down Throw

Spoiler: R.O.B.

Increased knockback on Up Throw
Decreased knockback on Up Air
Slightly reduced startup on Neutral Air and Back Air
Slightly increased knockback on Forward Smash and Down Smash
Reduced distance that uncharged Gyro travels (don't know if this is possible to change, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyways)

Spoiler: Yoshi

All grabs have reduced startup
Drastically increased knockback on up throw (becomes a kill throw)
Increased damage on Neutral Air and final hit of Back Air

Spoiler: Mewtwo

Slightly reduced startup and endlag on Confusion
Slightly bigger hitbox for the lower part of Down Smash
Slightly more weight

What's the point of these. These characters are already in great condition especially Mewtwo.

 

[Derpnaster]

But it could be too powerful. I mean having a stun is one thing but being able to spam them out at a decent speed could be op or/and be downright annoying to all hell. I'm still not on board with a stun, although it would improve him greatly.

If you keep the same speed it wouldn't be too bad. Keep in mind characters with Reflectors can destroy that and good shielding/ aerial approaches can overcome a minor stun. Also characters like Link and TLink can just walk through that projectile or wait Falco out and punish an approach

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Roy does not need to be more aggressive, because Roy is aggressive already. What Roy needs is something that will actually fix some of his massive weaknesses, like say his poor range and how unsafe he is on shield, or how his attributes work against him more often than not. Making a fast and aggressive character faster and more aggressive is not going to help much in the grand scheme of things.

It does when it punishes some of their defensive options.

First of all, his range isn't poor at all. Its not Marth or Ike range but its still better than say Toon Link. Its in the upper 25% of the cast's range. That ain't something you buff.

Second: you do know how the shieldstun formula works right? More damage = more shield stun and I believe pushback as well. And a number of his sweetspots got damage buffs as did a few of his sourspots. Which in turn means they are safer on shield and keeps them in shieldstun longer. Which in turn gives you a longer time to either grab them (hence the small grab related buffs suggested to complement this + movement speed change) or use another move to apply even more pressure.

The speed also increases the number of combos he can do, as does the damage increases as it also increases hitstun. Those aren't attributes working against him, they're making it so it he has to get past his weaknesses less frequently to seal a stock (and slightly expand his recovery range from off stage). Particularly when you also decrease the dash to shield time, which lets him use his speed to close the gap while being able to react to projectiles or walling moves better. The speed itself means he has to do that less times to close the gap. The gravity/fall speed he has lets him go from air to ground quickly, taking advantage of the sweetspot of his aerials better like say with Nair.

Upon reflection, Roy might be a candidate for having his jump squat lowered actually. Would allow him get to said air position faster. Its already in the second fastest category at 5, move it to 4. I would suggest maybe expanding the size of his sweetspots in term of what % of his sword they make up but I don't have a good feel for what % its currently at already.

 

[SageX3]

If you keep the same speed it wouldn't be too bad. Keep in mind characters with Reflectors can destroy that and good shielding/ aerial approaches can overcome a minor stun. Also characters like Link and TLink can just walk through that projectile or wait Falco out and punish an approach

But those things you listed are basically what beat his regular lasers. So they would basically be glorified zss mini stuns. I just feel that the stun can help but not to the same degree that a speed or end lag decrease could do.

 

[Ultinarok]

Speed Mode damage multiplier= 0.8 -> 0.85
Shield Mode damage multiplier = 0.6 -> 0.75
Smash Mode damage multiplier = 0.5 -> 0.55
Buster Mode damage multipler = 1.4 -> 1.5

Forward tilt
Endlag reduction of 3 frames

Forward Smash
Hit 1 -hitstun increase. Given transcendent priority

Up Smash
Hit 1-hitstun increase. Transcendent priority

Down Smash
KBG +4 on all hits

Dash Attack
Start up minus 3 frames.
Damage up 1.5% on all hits
-9/11 -> 10.5/12.5 (I believe that's the damage, I never use it vanilla)

Forward Aerial
-Start up frames 14 -> 11
Damage 8.5/9.5 -> 10/11

Back Aerial
-Start up frames minus 3
Damage 9/11/13 -> 10.5/12.5/14.5

 

[Derpnaster]

But those things you listed are basically what beat his regular lasers. So they would basically be glorified zss mini stuns. I just feel that the stun can help but not to the same degree that a speed or end lag decrease could do.

That's the idea, not to make Falco beat out what already beats both his, Fox's, ZSS', And pretty much every straight flying projectile. But make it more rewarding on hit than it already is. And like I said, take some endlag off it, however not an insane amount.

 

[SageX3]

Speed Mode damage multiplier= 0.8 -> 0.85
Shield Mode damage multiplier = 0.6 -> 0.75
Smash Mode damage multiplier = 0.5 -> 0.55
Buster Mode damage multipler = 1.4 -> 1.5

Forward tilt
Endlag reduction of 3 frames

Forward Smash
Hit 1 -hitstun increase. Given transcendent priority

Up Smash
Hit 1-hitstun increase. Transcendent priority

Down Smash
KBG +4 on all hits

Dash Attack
Start up minus 3 frames.
Damage up 1.5% on all hits
-9/11 -> 10.5/12.5 (I believe that's the damage, I never use it vanilla)

Forward Aerial
-Start up frames 14 -> 11
Damage 8.5/9.5 -> 10/11

Back Aerial
-Start up frames minus 3
Damage 9/11/13 -> 10.5/12.5/14.5

All Shulk needs is just better frame data on his arials. His Monado Arts are perfectly fine.

 

[Derpnaster]

All Shulk needs is just better frame data on his arials. His Monado Arts are perfectly fine.

He also does not need trancendant priority because his hits are already disjointed, ie they have no hurtbox and thus cannot be disrupted only clashed with, even then Zelda who has such priority can still clash with disjointed hitboxes.

 

[SageX3]

That's the idea, not to make Falco beat out what already beats both his, Fox's, ZSS', And pretty much every straight flying projectile. But make it more rewarding on hit than it already is. And like I said, take some endlag off it, however not an insane amount.

Ok I can see where you're coming from now. There's no doubt that it would help him but my main concern is how much Falco would benefit off of a hit from it. I can see maybe a combo and some more stage control and at worst charged smash attacks.

 

[Ultinarok]

He also does not need trancendant priority because his hits are already disjointed, ie they have no hurtbox and thus cannot be disrupted only clashed with, even then Zelda who has such priority can still clash with disjointed hitboxes.

Hit one of Shulks fsmash and upsmash clank with many jabs. Disjointed or not, the opponent can block his finishers with their fastest moves, they don't even need to shield or evade.

The damage modifiers are boosted because Shulk is not terribly rewarded when he hits as it is. Even on a good read, he doesn't inflict enough damage. His modifiers are meant to balance him out, but he struggles hard for a kill without a really hard read when using speed or shield because of the penalties, and he's in these modes often. My improvements were designed to make shulk scarier when on the attack, because he already has a poor disadvantage state. His neutral and advantage states are much improved with these fee sinple tweaks.

His dash attack becomes more like Ikes and is a legitimate kill.option even in speed mode. Shulk can approach, poke, short hop bair and get in the opponents space more efficiently, while his ftilt and shield mode damage buffs help him alleviate pressure and his smashes no longer clank with jabs, or get interrupted by things like dolphin slash.

I tried to buff Shulk in the areas he needs it most; finishing stocks and having options with subpar, rather than awful, lag.

 

[SageX3]

He also does not need trancendant priority because his hits are already disjointed, ie they have no hurtbox and thus cannot be disrupted only clashed with, even then Zelda who has such priority can still clash with disjointed hitboxes.

Not to mention their amazing range already.

 

[Derpnaster]

Hit one of Shulks fsmash and upsmash clank with many jabs. Disjointed or not, the opponent can block his finishers with their fastest moves, they don't even need to shield or evade.

Look at Corin bro, and jabs are not the fastest option for many characters. In Link's case that would be Nair.

Furthermore Shulk is at an advantage on clash because recovering from clashing is dependent on the move clashed with, anyone who clashes an fsamsh with a jab better have god tier defense game because they're not recovering fast enough to avoid a punish.

 

[SageX3]

Hit one of Shulks fsmash and upsmash clank with many jabs. Disjointed or not, the opponent can block his finishers with their fastest moves, they don't even need to shield or evade.

They would have to be really close to clash and if they're that close they're jab should be fast enough to beat of the start-up of Shulk' s f smash.

 

[Ultinarok]

They would have to be really close to clash and if they're that close they're jab should be fast enough to beat of the start-up of Shulk' s f smash.

Its easy to get in Shulks space by punishing him on a whiff, he doesn't need to be blocked before he even attacks. All the monado has to do is make contact with the jab for them to clank. His smashes are too slow to be that vulnerable, most other disjointed smashes are strong enough to simply ignore the opponent's attacks and trump them...they don't have weak first hits designed to pin the foe like Shulks do.

 

[Derpnaster]

Its easy to get in Shulks space by punishing him on a whiff, he doesn't need to be blocked before he even attacks. All the monado has to do is make contact with the jab for them to clank. His smashes are too slow to be that vulnerable, most other disjointed smashes are strong enough to simply ignore the opponent's attacks and trump them...they don't have weak first hits designed to pin the foe like Shulks do.

Not true at all. Most disjoint smashes are easy to clash with, it just requires timing. Honestly Shulk doesn't need his hit altered just the startup perhaps.

 

[ZeusLink]

I'll agree with that, since Shulk's greatest weakness is his frame data. At least having his frame data similar to Ike's would do.