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Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

KingJigglypuff

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This isn't directed towards anyone directly, but this is more so directed towards the more hostile comments.

I can certainly understand people not liking changes, but acting needlessly hostile when I clearly stated I need criticism isn't going to help. It's fine to disagree and get upset at some changes, but it would help to say why you disagree with the said changes without getting overly aggressive. These changes are not final, so there can and will be changes as time goes by.

I feel I should add a disclaimer in the OP saying these changes are not final and are subject to change to help minimize this hostility.

SDo0m was certainly right when he said I revealed this project way too early, but it's too late for me to go back now.
 

RedMarf78

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So I have a couple of questions.

1:Why expand Up Smash in such a way as to let it hit not just below Lucas, but below and out of him? Currently no up smash that I know of, keep in mind I have not done uber research on the entire game, hits below ledge, they generally hit above and slightly out to the sides of a character, in that regard Lucas is fine, his Up Smash is pretty freaking big.

If you want to make it better against faster characters, which is what you seem to think would be best, why not just move the FAF to an earlier point while still keeping the massive sweetspots and damage the same? Honestly if anything that move just needs less cooldown and it's golden.

2: Why not just alter Lucas' tether grab? it's already pretty fast for a tether and , well it's a freaking tether, maybe a couple of frames off but not much really, Lucas feels about where he should be without jacking up all his knockback and damage.
1.First off, ironically, Ness' up smash can hit ledges (along with pikachu's on most of the cast). The reason I want to up smash to hit ledges is to give a move that is ridiculously slow a bit more utility. Also because nostalgia from brawl. Brawl Lucas' up smash was stronger, hit ledges and had bigger hitboxes. I didn't make the move faster because I recognize Lucas' up smash as a high risk high reward high reward move. It's just that currently, the risks outweigh the rewards. Making up smash faster is a potential option for buffs but I don't really see the point; unless you're shaving off 30+ frames of lag the move is still going to be ridiculously punishable. Finally, I do want Lucas to better against faster characters since they currently give him so much trouble but I don't see buffing up smash (or his smashes in general) as the answer to this. To help fight against fast characters, you need a good way to either halt their speed (rob gyro or bowser jr. mechakoopa) of keep them out of your space (think marth fair or cloud nair). Up smash fulfills neither of these roles so we probably shouldn't buff the move around the idea of it being good against fast characters cause long story short, it realistically never will be.

2. Lucas already has the fasterst (and shortest) tetcher grab in the game. It's even faster that yoshi's grab. Lucas also has better combo's out of his grab than any other tether character (except like ZSS). Lucas already has a pretty great grab so I saw no reason to make it even better.
 
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KingJigglypuff

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KingJigglypuff KingJigglypuff
May you heed some of my suggestions for Link and Ganondorf, if at all possible? I could stay within the range of reason, even.
Everyone is free to suggest changes, but adding reasons why things should be changed would add some validity to your suggestions.

While I won't reply to every suggestion users make (since there's so many), I at least will see them and talk the reasonable changes over with those in my group.
 

ZeusLink

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I wish I can suggest something for Link, but slow moves, good projectile game, range, endurance and power make him close to balanced. I just wish he can auto-cancel his Forward Aerial from a short or full hop.

His Forward Aerial does 24%. Nothing wrong with that, right?
 

Derpnaster

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I wish I can suggest something for Link, but slow moves, good projectile game, range, endurance and power make him close to balanced. I just wish he can auto-cancel his Forward Aerial from a short or full hop.

His Forward Aerial does 24%. Nothing wrong with that, right?
Not at all, it requires you to get both hits which is really only possible at low percents. These days FAir acts more like a getup option with massive KO potential.

Honestly if Link needs a buff it's not in his damage or speed of movement, it's in his bad frame data, right now he has a very hard time with faster characters and characters with mobility. His projectile game helps with that to an extent but since that only gets Link so far he needs to be safer on attacks.

That's why I suggested taking two frames off all of Link's tilts endlag, it's not much but it means Link has a better chance of not dying outright because he threw out an ftilt that hit the edge of someone's shield.


PS:
I play a lot of grab happy players so the whole ftil to get bodied thing is quite likely me being bad, I do tend to throw out jabs a lot though in place of ftilt.
PPS:
RedMarf78 RedMarf78 , Thank you I like your reasoning, I also did not know about those other Up Smashes, I'll keep that in mind. Thank you for answering a question with insightful and thoughtful opinion and idea.
 
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MarioMeteor

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I never did post those Roy changes, so here I go.
Weight increased - 95 -> 104
Falling speed decreased - 1.8 -> 1.68
Gravity decreased - 0.114 -> 0.1

General range increase on all sword attacks.
Down tilt damage decreased - 11%/6.5% -> 8%/4.5%. Angle raised from 30 to 65 and FAF decreased slightly - frame 22 -> 20.
Down smash (hilt) KBG increased - 85 -> 90. FAF decreased - 63 -> 60.

Neutral, forward, and up air autocancel frames improved - frame 47 -> frame 32 (neutral), frame 33 -> frame 30 (forward), frame 38 -> 30 (up).
Down air active frames - 16-17 -> 12-13. FAF decreased - frame 52 -> frame 47.
Up air KBG decreased - 80 -> 75.

Down throw damage increased - 5% -> 7%. Hitstun increased as well.
Back throw ending lag decreased.
Up throw KBG increased - 100 -> 120.
I don't know as much about Roy as I do Jigglypuff, so if some of these seem crazy or off, they probably are.
 
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Derpnaster

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I never did post those Roy changes, so here I go.
Weight increased - 95 -> 104
Falling speed decreased - 1.8 -> 1.68
Gravity decreased - 0.114 -> 0.1

General range increase on all sword attacks.
Down tilt damage decreased - 11%/6.5% -> 8%/4.5%. Angle raised from 30 to 65 and FAF decreased slightly - frame 22 -> 20.
Down smash (hilt) KBG increased - 85 -> 90. FAF decreased - 63 -> 60.

Neutral, forward, and up air autocancel frames improved - frame 47 -> frame 32 (neutral), frame 33 -> frame 30 (forward), frame 38 -> 30 (up).
Down air active frames - 16-17 -> 12-13. FAF decreased - frame 52 -> frame 47.
Up air KBG decreased - 80 -> 75.

Down throw damage increased - 5% -> 7%. Hitstun increased as well.
Back throw ending lag decreased.
Up throw KBG increased - 100 -> 120.
I don't know as much about Roy as I do Jigglypuff, so if some of these seem crazy or off, they probably are.
So why make Roy Weigh as much as Link and Falcon? Isn't his character a light and fast fighter?
 

MrGameguycolor

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Funny how mewtwo didn't have a weight buff :^)
Quiet frankly, he/she/it doesn't need it.

I never did post those Roy changes, so here I go.
Weight increased - 95 -> 104
Falling speed decreased - 1.8 -> 1.68
Gravity decreased - 0.114 -> 0.1

General range increase on all sword attacks.
Down tilt damage decreased - 11%/6.5% -> 8%/4.5%. Angle raised from 30 to 65 and FAF decreased slightly - frame 22 -> 20.
Down smash (hilt) KBG increased - 85 -> 90. FAF decreased - 63 -> 60.

Neutral, forward, and up air autocancel frames improved - frame 47 -> frame 32 (neutral), frame 33 -> frame 30 (forward), frame 38 -> 30 (up).
Down air active frames - 16-17 -> 12-13. FAF decreased - frame 52 -> frame 47.
Up air KBG decreased - 80 -> 75.

Down throw damage increased - 5% -> 7%. Hitstun increased as well.
Back throw ending lag decreased.
Up throw KBG increased - 100 -> 120.
I don't know as much about Roy as I do Jigglypuff, so if some of these seem crazy or off, they probably are.
I disagree with the weight value.
104 would make Roy even more combo food then he already is, while though it could help with his limited recovery.
Personally, I just think it's too big of a change to risk IMO. I'd probably change his weight to 99 at most.

I also disagree with the down throw change, buffing it up by 2% would restrict the amount of combos he can do at higher percents. I would recommend just shaving off 20% of his FAF.

Like I said, it's just my viewpoint...
 
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Furret24

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I never did post those Roy changes, so here I go.
Weight increased - 95 -> 104
Falling speed decreased - 1.8 -> 1.68
Gravity decreased - 0.114 -> 0.1

General range increase on all sword attacks.
Down tilt damage decreased - 11%/6.5% -> 8%/4.5%. Angle raised from 30 to 65 and FAF decreased slightly - frame 22 -> 20.
Down smash (hilt) KBG increased - 85 -> 90. FAF decreased - 63 -> 60.

Neutral, forward, and up air autocancel frames improved - frame 47 -> frame 32 (neutral), frame 33 -> frame 30 (forward), frame 38 -> 30 (up).
Down air active frames - 16-17 -> 12-13. FAF decreased - frame 52 -> frame 47.
Up air KBG decreased - 80 -> 75.

Down throw damage increased - 5% -> 7%. Hitstun increased as well.
Back throw ending lag decreased.
Up throw KBG increased - 100 -> 120.
I don't know as much about Roy as I do Jigglypuff, so if some of these seem crazy or off, they probably are.
What's funny is that the changes are considerably more reasonable than your Puff changes on that "Create 1.1.6!" thread you made a while back. You might wanna tone down that up throw buff though, as it would make the move kill nearly as early as Mewtwo's up throw. :V
I also disagree with the down throw change, buffing it up by 2% would restrict the amount of combos he can do at higher percents. I would recommend just shaving off 20% of his FAF.
Shaving 20% off the FAF would allow Roy to act out of the move before the opponent is thrown. :V
:162:
 

Gigan X3

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Lucas' up smash is slower than Wii Fits up smash but weaker than it at the same time.
Speaking of her Up Smash. Is there something we can do about it? It's pretty good but it's a little strict to say the least. Maybe make the hitbox last 1-2 extra frames, I dunno. I know it has a little invincibility but I don't know the exact frames.
 

MarioMeteor

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What's funny is that the changes are considerably more reasonable than your Puff changes on that "Create 1.1.6!" thread you made a while back.

Yeah, as you can no doubt tell by my revised Jigglypuff changes, I've learned. Also, keep in mind that Roy needs FAR less changes than Jigglypuff does.
You might wanna tone down that up throw buff though, as it would make the move kill nearly as early as Mewtwo's up throw. :V
Would it? The intention was to make it around Marth'd up throw's strength. They must have different BKB values.

So why make Roy Weigh as much as Link and Falcon? Isn't his character a light and fast fighter?
Fast, yes, light, no. I mean, logically, he wears what looks to be metal armor and carries that heavy-looking sword, so you'd think he'd be a heavyweight, but he isn't. It just doesn't make sense to me that Lucario weighs more than Roy.
I disagree with the weight value.
104 would make Roy even more combo food then he already is, while though it could help with his limited recovery.
Which is why I made him floatier, so he doesn't fall in combos and stay in them, like Fox does. Combined with his already godly air speed and lower gravity, he'd have an easier time dealing with juggles altogether.
I also disagree with the down throw change, buffing it up by 2% would restrict the amount of combos he can do at higher percents. I would recommend just shaving off 20% of his FAF.

Like I said, it's just my viewpoint...
I'll give you that, but Roy's down throw isn't that slow, so 20% would probably break it. I wanted to make it better at comboing and damage-racking overall, but I wasn't quite sure how to do that without either ruining it or breaking it.

 

Furret24

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Yeah, as you can no doubt tell by my revised Jigglypuff changes, I've learned. Also, keep in mind that Roy needs FAR less changes than Jigglypuff does.
I'm mixed on that, as Roy isn't much better than Jigglypuff imo and needs to be buffed about as much, but Roy doesn't need that many changes compared to Puff, who could use a universal slight buff to her moveset. :V
Would it? The intention was to make it around Marth'd up throw's strength. They must have different BKB values.
They're already about even in power though. While Roy's may have less knockback than Marth's, it also does 2% more, causing them to kill about as early as Marth's. It's like how Doc's back throw has 6 less kbg than Mario's, but kills around the same percent due to it also doing 1.32% more than Mario's.

I think it is worth mentioning that Roy's up throw sends at a more horizontal angle than Marth's (97 degrees, as opposed to Marth's 93 degrees), which means your opponent could survive longer against Roy's up throw compared to Marth's up throw, despite both throws doing about the same knockback. Maybe changing Roy's up throw angle to match Marth's would be better.
:162:
 

MarioMeteor

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given his character I think being more like Marth's weight would be fair.
That would make him lighter, thus rather defeating the purpose of this conversation.
I'm mixed on that, as Roy isn't much better than Jigglypuff imo and needs to be buffed about as much, but Roy doesn't need that many changes compared to Puff, who could use a universal slight buff to her moveset. :V
Slight buff?

Roy is definitely a hell of a lot better than Jigglypuff, though when you get down to it, they're both flawed characters. I feel like if Roy were to just get a range increase and better autocancels and nothing else, he'd still be a completely viable character. Jigglypuff, on the other hand, could receive three patches worth of buffs and still need some more.


They're already about even in power though. While Roy's may have less knockback than Marth's, it also does 2% more, causing them to kill about as early as Marth's. It's like how Doc's back throw has 6 less kbg than Mario's, but kills around the same percent due to it also doing 1.32% more than Mario's.

I think it is worth mentioning that Roy's up throw sends at a more horizontal angle than Marth's (97 degrees, as opposed to Marth's 93 degrees), which means your opponent could survive longer against Roy's up throw compared to Marth's up throw, despite both throws doing about the same knockback. Maybe changing Roy's up throw angle to match Marth's would be better.
:162:
I tested it, and I found that Marth's kills 6% earlier without Rage. Even with DI accounted for on only Marth's, that doesn't change, so the angle isn't the problem. Maybe an increase in damage would even them out? Keep in mind that Marth's has about 20 more KBG (give or take) than Roy's.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Funny how mewtwo didn't have a weight buff :^)
I never really understood why Mewtwo is treated as the second lightest fighter in Smash 3DS / Wii U. It was never THAT light in Melee, and yet it was still pretty easy to send packing in that game.
 

Derpnaster

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eh, some people can take it some can't. Ignore it and keep on suggesting balances.

I'd be OK with a Hoo Ha if it was more situational. Like ROB's, you have to read it right to get the kill.
 

ZeusLink

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Derpnaster

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he's pretty buff, but he lacks AT forcing a reliance on fundamental play. In that regard I feel he's the most balanced swordsman right now
 

MarioMeteor

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I think he just wants attention. I've never seen anybody so uptight...
This ain't the first I've seen from his salt on Twitter. And apparently the people who agree with him there are sheep.


All salt aside, I feel like Ike is on some kind of steroids when it comes to Sm4sh. His appearance and Moveset are close to that as well. Well, mostly appearance.
Do you see that sword? You'd get buff lugging that thing around too.
 
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ZeusLink

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Dang, and when l thought Cloud had the heaviest blade(odd that he has fast frame data). Must be the Mako energy doing it's thing.
 

MarioMeteor

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I just realized, Ike has slow frame data because Ragnell is a two-handed sword. The Master Sword isn't, so what's Link's excuse?
 

KingJigglypuff

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It doesn't seem like he read through the first few pages. The revival of Hoo Hah wasn't a serious change (even if I did edit it to kill at 150%+), and was more meme-oriented, so it's likely going to be reverted.

If someone can get upset over something like this, I can't imagine what's going to happen if I edit anyone in the mid+ tier.

Edit: Maybe I should talk to him. I don't want to see needless drama over something so mundane.
 
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ZeusLink

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I just realized, Ike has slow frame data because Ragnell is a two-handed sword. The Master Sword isn't, so what's Link's excuse?
It would either be that he carries so much items in his pack(even though most of them are probably light items), or he winds up the attacks for maximum power.

I don't even KNOW what Sakurai was thinking about Shulk. Other than the fact he holds the Monado on his back and has to unsheath it, I can't comprehend why he's so slow in frame data.
 

Radical Larry

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KingJigglypuff KingJigglypuff Alright, you'll enjoy these balance changes I'm going to suggest for both Link and Ganondorf. Some are minor, some are very major, and the major ones will have explanations, whereas minor ones will possibly not. The major changes are going to be in bold and explained later in the changes lists.

Running Speed Increased: 1.3944 => 1.55
Air Speed Increased: 0.88 => 0.92
Gravity Decreased: 0.096 => 0.093
Link Gains the Wall Jumping Ability

Jumpsquat Frames Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames

Jab Attack 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 5
Jab Attack 1 FAF Decreased: 28 Frames => 21 Frames
Jab Attack 2 FAF Decreased: 21 Frames => 12 Frames
Jab Attack 3 Damage Increased: 5% => 6%

Dash Attack Start-Up Decreased: Frame 20 => Frame 16
Dash Attack FAF Decreased: 57 Frames => 45 Frames
Dash Attack Damage Decreased: 14/13/12% => 12/11/10%

Forward Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 15 => Frame 13
Forward Tilt FAF Decreased: 38 Frames => 31 Frames
Forward Tilt Damage Decreased: 13% => 10%
Up Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 8 => Frame 7
Up Tilt FAF Decreased: 36 Frames => 32 Frames
Up Tilt Damage Decreased: 9% => 7%
Down Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 11 => Frame 9
Down Tilt FAF Decreased: 29 Frames => 25 Frames
Down Tilt Damage Decreased: 11% => 9%
Down Tilt Meteor Hitbox Changes:
Hitbox Position Extended to the Entire Sword so that Link can be capable of efficiently meteoring opponents.
Hitbox Y Position Moved Down by 2 Units so 2 Frame Punishes can also be an efficient thing, as well as hitting opponents who hand on the ledge.​

Forward Smash Hit 1 Tipper Hitbox Extended to Entire Sword.
Forward Smash Hit 2 FAF Heavily Decreased: 68 Frames => 49 Frames
Forward Smash Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 89 KBG => 100 KBG
Forward Smash Hit 2 Damage Decreased: 13/13/12/12% => 11/11/10/10%
Up Smash Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 9
Up Smash Hits 1, 2 and 3 link up faster:
Up Smash Hit 1 is Frame 9-14, second hit comes out to 18-21, third hit comes out 25-30​
Up Smash FAF Decreased: 78 Frames => 61 Frames
Up Smash Hit 3 Damage Decreased: 11/11/10/9% => 9/9/8/7%
Down Smash Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 9 => Frame 7
Down Smash Hit 2 Knockback Increased: 80 Knockback => 90 Knockback
Down Smash Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 63 KBG => 70 KBG

Back Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 4% => 6%
Back Throw Knockback Increased: 50 Knockback => 60 Knockback
Back Throw Knockback Growth Increased: 110 KBG => 130 KBG

Down Throw Angle Changed: 83 Degrees => 90 Degrees
Down Throw Knockback Growth Decreased: 85 KBG => 75 KBG

Neutral Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 5
Neutral Aerial Clean Hit, Front Damage Increased: 11% => 13%
Neutral Aerial Auto-Cancel Frame Window Decreased: Frame 36 => Frame 32
Forward Aerial Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 14 => Frame 12
Forward Aerial Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 100 KBG => 150 KBG
Back Aerial Hit 1 Damage Increased: 3% => 5%
Back Aerial Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 6%
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Damage Increased: 15% => 22%
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Hitbox Length Extended: Frames 14-17 => Frames 14-20
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Angle Changed: 270 Degrees => 83 Degrees
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Knockback Growth Increased: 80 KBG => 100 KBG

Grab Aerial Landing Lag Decreased: 8 Frames => 1 Frame

Gale Boomerang Start-Up Decreased: Frame 27 => Frame 19
Gale Boomerang Early Damage Decreased: 7% => 6%
Spin Attack Grounded Hitbox Changes:
Spin Attack remains a multi-hit on shields, and does not disappear after 1 hit.
Early Hitbox [Front] Damage Increase: 14/14/11.2% => 16/16/13.8%
Early Hitbox [Front] Shield Damage Added: +20%
Early Hitbox [Back] Damage Increase: 12/12/9.6% => 14/14/10.4%
Late Hitbox [Front] Damage Increase: 9/9/7.2% => 11/11/9.1%
Spin Attack Grounded Back Hit, Late Hit and Latest Hit Angle Change: 43/43/361 Degrees => 10/20/20 Degrees
Spin Attack Grounded FAF Decreased: 82 Frames => 72 Frames
Spin Attack Aerial Hits 2-8 Damage Increased: 2% => 3%

Explanations:
Mobility Buff: Now at an easily justifiable and modest setting, Link having a higher mobility would allow him to efficiently hit opponents and even chase them down. However, his mobility is not ridiculous [like I last made it], and he is still among the slower characters.

Gravity Change: Lower gravity, more height, better AC capabilities. Link would benefit from reaching falling speed a little later since he would be able to have higher jump, double jump and better recovery. While it is no drastic change, it certainly is indeed a transition to make Link a better aerial fighter.

Wall Jumping: Now call me crazy, but I'm kind of sick of seeing Link without a wall jump ability. Having Wall Jump in his arsenal would better his recovery going low, especially when he misses an attack and is sent much lower. As well, it'd aid Link's edge-guarding prowess by allowing him to hit opponents like never before.

Forward Smash 1 Always Tipper: Well, people who really hated the change made to F-Smash Hit 1 worry no more, as it can be a more viable kill move at any angle. Of course, this is only due to balancing purposes with the decreased FAF of the second hit, as well as the ridiculous new KBG of the same second hit.

Back Throw Change: Oh yes, a new kill move that's a Back Throw, as if we need more right...? Well...Link needs a viable kill throw option anyways. It's not like U-Throw's just going to do the trick for him. No, Back Throw dealing more damage, KB and KBG altogether could make it a viable kill move and would undoubtedly give Link a good chance at KO'ing the opponent with a throw, while also keeping his other throws [except D-Throw] unchanged.

Forward Aerial Hit 2 KBG Rise: Yeah, just putting it out there, since it's already harder to hit with the second hit of F-Air, and since it lacked the power of the first hit, giving it more power than the first hit like it should would make Link players want to hit that second hit for even earlier KOs. But then again, the first one's still so viable so...

Down Aerial Meteor Hitbox Redone: Probably the biggest change in this is Down Aerial's earliest hits no longer...well...being a meteor smash, but instead, the ultra-powerful hit it was back in Melee and Brawl. Dealing 22% damage, high knockback growth and more, who wouldn't want to enjoy hitting their opponent with D-Air now? Of course, the later hits still exist, but the 18% hitbox is indefinitely replaced with the 22% hitbox.

Spin Attack Shield Buster: Frustratingly enough, whenever a Spin Attack is blocked by a shield, it's that one hit and it's over. But now that cannot happen, for Link's Spin Attack hitbox doesn't disappear until the last hitbox finishes, thus making it hazard to shields and allowing Link to join the shield busting heavyweights. Of course, Link's rehit rate stays the same and once the opponent's hit, the knockback won't allow them to get hit. As a side note, yes, after the first hitbox comes out, the rest of Spin Attack is like Melee's Semi-Spike all over again.

Overall: Link would receive innumerable buffs to not only mobility, but also frame data, but of course, some damage has to be knocked down for him too while some damage was boosted. Overall, Link is a more versatile character with these changes and would definitely be an alarm clock to shield users, since his Spin Attack would not be fun to mess with. His other attacks are otherwise still very versatile, and he could even have a better combo game and a significantly better time KO'ing opponents if these changes were added. His attacks, too, would be safer overall. Who wouldn't want a better Link?

Special Attribute: Resonating Darkness

Weight Heavily Increased: 113 => 125
Run Speed Increased: 1.218 => 1.4
Walk Speed Heavily Increased: 0.73 => 1
Air Speed Increased: 0.79 => 0.85
Gravity Decreased: 1.0784 => 0.9877
Jumpsquat Frames Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames

Jab Attack Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 3
Jab Attack FAF Decreased: 29 => 20

Dash Attack FAF Decreased: 38 => 32

Forward Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 7
Forward Tilt FAF Decreased: 40 => 33
Forward Tilt Damage Decreased: 13/12/12% => 11/10/10%
Up Tilt Windbox Reach Increased by 10 Units Behind Ganondorf
Up Tilt Sweetspot Hitbox Reach Increased by 7 Units Behind Ganondorf
Up Tilt Heavy Armor Added: Starts at Frame 6 and ends at Frame 93
Up Tilt Super Armor Added: Starts at Frame 6 and ends at Frame 93
Up Tilt Hitbox Startup Increased: Frame 81 => Frame 90
Up Tilt FAF Decreased: 115 => 105
Up Tilt Sweetspot Knockback Growth Heavily Increased: 80 KBG => 180 KBG

Down Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 8
Down Tilt FAF Decreased: 36 => 28
Down Tilt Damage Decreased: 13% => 11%

Forward Smash Start-Up Decreased: Frame 21 => Frame 19
Forward Smash FAF Decreased: 60 => 56
Up Smash New Hitbox Added:
Frames: 15-19
Damage: 15%
Knockback: 30 KB
Knockback Growth: 30 KBG
Angle: 90 Degrees

All Grab Ranges [Except Dash Grab] Increased by 2 Units in front of Ganondorf [Includes Flame Choke and Dark Dive].
Dash Grab Range Increased by 3 Units in front of Ganondorf.

Forward Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 8% => 12%
Back Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 9%

Down Throw Angle Changed: 65 Degrees => 85 Degrees
Down Throw Knockback Growth Decreased: 50 => 30

Forward Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frame 14 => Frame 12
Forward Aerial Damage Decreased: 17/18% => 15/16%
Forward Aerial Auto-Cancel Window Shortened: Frame 55 => Frame 28

Grounded Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 30% => 35%
Grounded B-Reverse Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 38% => 40%
Aerial Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 38% => 42%
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 40% => 50%
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Knockback Heavily Increased: 40 Knockback => 300 Knockback
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Knockback Growth Heavily Increased: 100 KBG => 500 KBG

Grounded Flame Choke Damage Increased: 12% => 15%
Aerial Flame Choke Damage Increased: 15% => 17%
Dark Dive [Attack] Knockback Growth Increased: 90 KBG => 110 KBG

Explanations:
Resonating Darkness: Ganondorf's got three spots that deal different damage. Damage multipliers are akin to Bowser Jr's Clown Kart and Upper Hitbox. Ganondorf is dealt 0.2x damage if he's hit on his armor hitboxes, while it's normal anywhere else. This bumps up his survivability tenfold.

Up Tilt - Volcanic Cyclone: Somewhat slower to hit, but now it can suck opponents in on both sides, and the thing is, Ganondorf's attack hits on both sides now and has both Super and Heavy Armor on it, almost making him invincible right? Well...he can still get grabbed and his attack can be halted for a bit if he is attacked by an opponent. However, the attack is able to make the opponent's day somewhat of a living hell since it can KO at a very, very low damage now.

Up Smash Added Hitbox: His Up Smash is...well...slow. So why not speed it up while giving it more power too? Well, Ganondorf's Up Smash is almost like his Melee Up Smash [keyword: ALMOST], and has a new hitbox that links up to the second hit quite well. No repercussions here, actually. Just a newer, better attack.

Throw Attack Increase: Yes, Forward Throw is getting that kind of treatment, where it's getting a heavy damage increase. Dealing a total of 17%, it's not a throw to be messed with. Neither is Back Throw, which follows in Forward Throw's Footsteps, but is kind of potent if it becomes a kill throw.

Your Doom: The hardest attack to hit can be the most satisfying, right? Look, need I say more when I say that B-Reversed and if hit in mid-air, Warlock Punch becomes the most dangerous attack known to Smash? Of course...it's still going to be that hard to hit it anyways. It's not like Ganondorf's gained a huge jumping height boost or anything.

Overall: Ganondorf would have quite the hefty increase in some of his arsenal, and yes, some of his more...useless moves will gain some use, maybe. I mean, Up Tilt and Aerial B-Reversed WP might sound broken, but remember how hard it is to hit with them in the first place? It's actually very hard. There's some mobility buffs, frame data buffs and even some grab and throw buffs, but there are also damage nerfs to some attacks, and it comes with some attacks just having better frame data and less changes to their KB and KBG. If they had the same damage, they would be quite overpowering of course.

Overall, the two KO moves Ganondorf has are simply there for the fun of it, and are sort of like cosmetic effects, since the chances of hitting them aren't that high in the first place.
 

ZeusLink

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Even though some are a bit much to ask, I agree with the fact Link needs a wall jump.

...although, his tech wall jump is already crazy as hell, so it may need a little toning down on the horizontal distance, like Toon Link.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I just realized, Ike has slow frame data because Ragnell is a two-handed sword. The Master Sword isn't, so what's Link's excuse?
Link carries a lot of tools with him, which can be a burden for his mobility. All that Ike has to carry around is his sword.

Of course, Link does walk faster than Ike.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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This ain't the first I've seen from his salt on Twitter. And apparently the people who agree with him there are sheep.
Sheep? More like they're not silly enough to think Diddy Kong buffs are a good idea.

Nonetheless the Diddy buffs are gone because it was an elaborate troll which means in the end I was right.

It's a good day.
 

Derpnaster

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So aa a link player I cam say, your buffs are overkill. Link doesn't really need more mobility or more combo game. Honestly he just needs less lag on both sides. He's really powerful in the right hands and can win seemingly impossible matchups because he can adapt to many situations.

though a wall jump would be fun.
 

ZeusLink

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Sheep? More like they're not silly enough to think Diddy Kong buffs are a good idea.

Nonetheless the Diddy buffs are gone because it was an elaborate troll which means in the end I was right.

It's a good day.
I'm hearing "Diddy can't get buffs! Waah! Waaah! I was right about everything!" Sure it was near broken, but we had Bayonetta to whine about, and we're still obsessed with Hoo-hah. Sm4sh mods are a different story. We're here to give ideas about characters buffs/nerfs, not to whine about old combos that were broken. Even then, the changes KJP made to Diddy's Hoo-Hah are weaker than the old one in patch 1.0.0, or whatever.

In other words, let the modders do their job.
 
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MarioMeteor

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We aren't actually reinstating the Hoo-Ha, are we?
It would either be that he carries so much items in his pack(even though most of them are probably light items), or he winds up the attacks for maximum power.

I don't even KNOW what Sakurai was thinking about Shulk. Other than the fact he holds the Monado on his back and has to unsheath it, I can't comprehend why he's so slow in frame data.
How exactly does he hold the Monado? It just kind of floats there. It's especially jarring on the naked Shulk costume. Is Shulk's back magnetic or something?
KingJigglypuff KingJigglypuff Alright, you'll enjoy these balance changes I'm going to suggest for both Link and Ganondorf. Some are minor, some are very major, and the major ones will have explanations, whereas minor ones will possibly not. The major changes are going to be in bold and explained later in the changes lists.

Running Speed Increased: 1.3944 => 1.55
Air Speed Increased: 0.88 => 0.92
Gravity Decreased: 0.096 => 0.093
Link Gains the Wall Jumping Ability

Jumpsquat Frames Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames

Jab Attack 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 5
Jab Attack 1 FAF Decreased: 28 Frames => 21 Frames
Jab Attack 2 FAF Decreased: 21 Frames => 12 Frames
Jab Attack 3 Damage Increased: 5% => 6%

Dash Attack Start-Up Decreased: Frame 20 => Frame 16
Dash Attack FAF Decreased: 57 Frames => 45 Frames
Dash Attack Damage Decreased: 14/13/12% => 12/11/10%

Forward Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 15 => Frame 13
Forward Tilt FAF Decreased: 38 Frames => 31 Frames
Forward Tilt Damage Decreased: 13% => 10%
Up Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 8 => Frame 7
Up Tilt FAF Decreased: 36 Frames => 32 Frames
Up Tilt Damage Decreased: 9% => 7%
Down Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 11 => Frame 9
Down Tilt FAF Decreased: 29 Frames => 25 Frames
Down Tilt Damage Decreased: 11% => 9%
Down Tilt Meteor Hitbox Changes:
Hitbox Position Extended to the Entire Sword so that Link can be capable of efficiently meteoring opponents.
Hitbox Y Position Moved Down by 2 Units so 2 Frame Punishes can also be an efficient thing, as well as hitting opponents who hand on the ledge.​

Forward Smash Hit 1 Tipper Hitbox Extended to Entire Sword.
Forward Smash Hit 2 FAF Heavily Decreased: 68 Frames => 49 Frames
Forward Smash Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 89 KBG => 100 KBG
Forward Smash Hit 2 Damage Decreased: 13/13/12/12% => 11/11/10/10%
Up Smash Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 9
Up Smash Hits 1, 2 and 3 link up faster:
Up Smash Hit 1 is Frame 9-14, second hit comes out to 18-21, third hit comes out 25-30​
Up Smash FAF Decreased: 78 Frames => 61 Frames
Up Smash Hit 3 Damage Decreased: 11/11/10/9% => 9/9/8/7%
Down Smash Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 9 => Frame 7
Down Smash Hit 2 Knockback Increased: 80 Knockback => 90 Knockback
Down Smash Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 63 KBG => 70 KBG

Back Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 4% => 6%
Back Throw Knockback Increased: 50 Knockback => 60 Knockback
Back Throw Knockback Growth Increased: 110 KBG => 130 KBG

Down Throw Angle Changed: 83 Degrees => 90 Degrees
Down Throw Knockback Growth Decreased: 85 KBG => 75 KBG

Neutral Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 5
Neutral Aerial Clean Hit, Front Damage Increased: 11% => 13%
Neutral Aerial Auto-Cancel Frame Window Decreased: Frame 36 => Frame 32
Forward Aerial Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frame 14 => Frame 12
Forward Aerial Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 100 KBG => 150 KBG
Back Aerial Hit 1 Damage Increased: 3% => 5%
Back Aerial Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 6%
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Damage Increased: 15% => 22%
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Hitbox Length Extended: Frames 14-17 => Frames 14-20
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Angle Changed: 270 Degrees => 83 Degrees
Down Aerial Earliest Hit Knockback Growth Increased: 80 KBG => 100 KBG

Grab Aerial Landing Lag Decreased: 8 Frames => 1 Frame

Gale Boomerang Start-Up Decreased: Frame 27 => Frame 19
Gale Boomerang Early Damage Decreased: 7% => 6%
Spin Attack Grounded Hitbox Changes:
Spin Attack remains a multi-hit on shields, and does not disappear after 1 hit.
Early Hitbox [Front] Damage Increase: 14/14/11.2% => 16/16/13.8%
Early Hitbox [Front] Shield Damage Added: +20%
Early Hitbox [Back] Damage Increase: 12/12/9.6% => 14/14/10.4%
Late Hitbox [Front] Damage Increase: 9/9/7.2% => 11/11/9.1%
Spin Attack Grounded Back Hit, Late Hit and Latest Hit Angle Change: 43/43/361 Degrees => 10/20/20 Degrees
Spin Attack Grounded FAF Decreased: 82 Frames => 72 Frames
Spin Attack Aerial Hits 2-8 Damage Increased: 2% => 3%

Explanations:
Mobility Buff: Now at an easily justifiable and modest setting, Link having a higher mobility would allow him to efficiently hit opponents and even chase them down. However, his mobility is not ridiculous [like I last made it], and he is still among the slower characters.

Gravity Change: Lower gravity, more height, better AC capabilities. Link would benefit from reaching falling speed a little later since he would be able to have higher jump, double jump and better recovery. While it is no drastic change, it certainly is indeed a transition to make Link a better aerial fighter.

Wall Jumping: Now call me crazy, but I'm kind of sick of seeing Link without a wall jump ability. Having Wall Jump in his arsenal would better his recovery going low, especially when he misses an attack and is sent much lower. As well, it'd aid Link's edge-guarding prowess by allowing him to hit opponents like never before.

Forward Smash 1 Always Tipper: Well, people who really hated the change made to F-Smash Hit 1 worry no more, as it can be a more viable kill move at any angle. Of course, this is only due to balancing purposes with the decreased FAF of the second hit, as well as the ridiculous new KBG of the same second hit.

Back Throw Change: Oh yes, a new kill move that's a Back Throw, as if we need more right...? Well...Link needs a viable kill throw option anyways. It's not like U-Throw's just going to do the trick for him. No, Back Throw dealing more damage, KB and KBG altogether could make it a viable kill move and would undoubtedly give Link a good chance at KO'ing the opponent with a throw, while also keeping his other throws [except D-Throw] unchanged.

Forward Aerial Hit 2 KBG Rise: Yeah, just putting it out there, since it's already harder to hit with the second hit of F-Air, and since it lacked the power of the first hit, giving it more power than the first hit like it should would make Link players want to hit that second hit for even earlier KOs. But then again, the first one's still so viable so...

Down Aerial Meteor Hitbox Redone: Probably the biggest change in this is Down Aerial's earliest hits no longer...well...being a meteor smash, but instead, the ultra-powerful hit it was back in Melee and Brawl. Dealing 22% damage, high knockback growth and more, who wouldn't want to enjoy hitting their opponent with D-Air now? Of course, the later hits still exist, but the 18% hitbox is indefinitely replaced with the 22% hitbox.

Spin Attack Shield Buster: Frustratingly enough, whenever a Spin Attack is blocked by a shield, it's that one hit and it's over. But now that cannot happen, for Link's Spin Attack hitbox doesn't disappear until the last hitbox finishes, thus making it hazard to shields and allowing Link to join the shield busting heavyweights. Of course, Link's rehit rate stays the same and once the opponent's hit, the knockback won't allow them to get hit. As a side note, yes, after the first hitbox comes out, the rest of Spin Attack is like Melee's Semi-Spike all over again.

Overall: Link would receive innumerable buffs to not only mobility, but also frame data, but of course, some damage has to be knocked down for him too while some damage was boosted. Overall, Link is a more versatile character with these changes and would definitely be an alarm clock to shield users, since his Spin Attack would not be fun to mess with. His other attacks are otherwise still very versatile, and he could even have a better combo game and a significantly better time KO'ing opponents if these changes were added. His attacks, too, would be safer overall. Who wouldn't want a better Link?

Special Attribute: Resonating Darkness

Weight Heavily Increased: 113 => 125
Run Speed Increased: 1.218 => 1.4
Walk Speed Heavily Increased: 0.73 => 1
Air Speed Increased: 0.79 => 0.85
Gravity Decreased: 1.0784 => 0.9877
Jumpsquat Frames Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames

Jab Attack Start-Up Decreased: Frame 7 => Frame 3
Jab Attack FAF Decreased: 29 => 20

Dash Attack FAF Decreased: 38 => 32

Forward Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 7
Forward Tilt FAF Decreased: 40 => 33
Forward Tilt Damage Decreased: 13/12/12% => 11/10/10%
Up Tilt Windbox Reach Increased by 10 Units Behind Ganondorf
Up Tilt Sweetspot Hitbox Reach Increased by 7 Units Behind Ganondorf
Up Tilt Heavy Armor Added: Starts at Frame 6 and ends at Frame 93
Up Tilt Super Armor Added: Starts at Frame 6 and ends at Frame 93
Up Tilt Hitbox Startup Increased: Frame 81 => Frame 90
Up Tilt FAF Decreased: 115 => 105
Up Tilt Sweetspot Knockback Growth Heavily Increased: 80 KBG => 180 KBG

Down Tilt Start-Up Decreased: Frame 10 => Frame 8
Down Tilt FAF Decreased: 36 => 28
Down Tilt Damage Decreased: 13% => 11%

Forward Smash Start-Up Decreased: Frame 21 => Frame 19
Forward Smash FAF Decreased: 60 => 56
Up Smash New Hitbox Added:
Frames: 15-19
Damage: 15%
Knockback: 30 KB
Knockback Growth: 30 KBG
Angle: 90 Degrees

All Grab Ranges [Except Dash Grab] Increased by 2 Units in front of Ganondorf [Includes Flame Choke and Dark Dive].
Dash Grab Range Increased by 3 Units in front of Ganondorf.

Forward Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 8% => 12%
Back Throw Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 9%

Down Throw Angle Changed: 65 Degrees => 85 Degrees
Down Throw Knockback Growth Decreased: 50 => 30

Forward Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frame 14 => Frame 12
Forward Aerial Damage Decreased: 17/18% => 15/16%
Forward Aerial Auto-Cancel Window Shortened: Frame 55 => Frame 28

Grounded Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 30% => 35%
Grounded B-Reverse Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 38% => 40%
Aerial Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 38% => 42%
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Damage Increased: 40% => 50%
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Knockback Heavily Increased: 40 Knockback => 300 Knockback
Aerial B-Reverse Warlock Punch Knockback Growth Heavily Increased: 100 KBG => 500 KBG

Grounded Flame Choke Damage Increased: 12% => 15%
Aerial Flame Choke Damage Increased: 15% => 17%
Dark Dive [Attack] Knockback Growth Increased: 90 KBG => 110 KBG

Explanations:
Resonating Darkness: Ganondorf's got three spots that deal different damage. Damage multipliers are akin to Bowser Jr's Clown Kart and Upper Hitbox. Ganondorf is dealt 0.2x damage if he's hit on his armor hitboxes, while it's normal anywhere else. This bumps up his survivability tenfold.

Up Tilt - Volcanic Cyclone: Somewhat slower to hit, but now it can suck opponents in on both sides, and the thing is, Ganondorf's attack hits on both sides now and has both Super and Heavy Armor on it, almost making him invincible right? Well...he can still get grabbed and his attack can be halted for a bit if he is attacked by an opponent. However, the attack is able to make the opponent's day somewhat of a living hell since it can KO at a very, very low damage now.

Up Smash Added Hitbox: His Up Smash is...well...slow. So why not speed it up while giving it more power too? Well, Ganondorf's Up Smash is almost like his Melee Up Smash [keyword: ALMOST], and has a new hitbox that links up to the second hit quite well. No repercussions here, actually. Just a newer, better attack.

Throw Attack Increase: Yes, Forward Throw is getting that kind of treatment, where it's getting a heavy damage increase. Dealing a total of 17%, it's not a throw to be messed with. Neither is Back Throw, which follows in Forward Throw's Footsteps, but is kind of potent if it becomes a kill throw.

Your Doom: The hardest attack to hit can be the most satisfying, right? Look, need I say more when I say that B-Reversed and if hit in mid-air, Warlock Punch becomes the most dangerous attack known to Smash? Of course...it's still going to be that hard to hit it anyways. It's not like Ganondorf's gained a huge jumping height boost or anything.

Overall: Ganondorf would have quite the hefty increase in some of his arsenal, and yes, some of his more...useless moves will gain some use, maybe. I mean, Up Tilt and Aerial B-Reversed WP might sound broken, but remember how hard it is to hit with them in the first place? It's actually very hard. There's some mobility buffs, frame data buffs and even some grab and throw buffs, but there are also damage nerfs to some attacks, and it comes with some attacks just having better frame data and less changes to their KB and KBG. If they had the same damage, they would be quite overpowering of course.

Overall, the two KO moves Ganondorf has are simply there for the fun of it, and are sort of like cosmetic effects, since the chances of hitting them aren't that high in the first place.
I think the frame 3 jab is a little overkill.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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I'm hearing "Diddy can't get buffs! Waah! Waaah! I was right about everything!" Sure it was near broken, but we had Bayonetta to whine about, and we're still obsessed with Hoo-hah. Sm4sh mods are a different story. We're here to give ideas about characters buffs/nerfs, not to whine about old combos that were broken. Even then, the changes KJP made to Diddy's Hoo-Hah are weaker than the old one in patch 1.0.0, or whatever.

In other words, let the modders do their job.
How is the modder himself saying it was a joke not proof enough or like every relevant player in the world saying Diddy is top 5, ****?

How do you tie your shoe laces in the morning fam
 

Derpnaster

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only if everyone got it. Oh god that would mean Sheik would get hers back as well
 

MarioMeteor

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How is the modder himself saying it was a joke not proof enough or like every relevant player in the world saying Diddy is top 5, ****?

How do you tie your shoe laces in the morning fam
Why are you still here? Don't you know when your presence is unwanted?
only if everyone got it. Oh god that would mean Sheik would get hers back as well
Well, we can X that plan out.
 
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