Derpnaster
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2015
- Messages
- 323
If Sulk even had Link's god awful frame data he'd be a high tier with how stupid his range is.
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Lol, that's actually actual to Roy's abilities in Fire Emblem 6.Shaving 20% off the FAF would allow Roy to act out of the move before the opponent is thrown. :V
Mewtwo is definitely a good character already, I totally agree with that. I saw buffs to Cloud (who has buffs and nerfs) and Diddy Kong (who just has buffs) in the OP, so I assumed it was anything goes and thought it was ok to suggest some minor buffs.What's the point of these. These characters are already in great condition especially Mewtwo.
It's poor for a swordsman who's entire gameplan is to be as aggro as possible. A gunman is going to look awfully stupid trying to win a shootout with a Nerf blaster.It does when it punishes some of their defensive options.
First of all, his range isn't poor at all. Its not Marth or Ike range but its still better than say Toon Link. Its in the upper 25% of the cast's range. That ain't something you buff.
It's not as if Roy's damage-racking is lacking, pardon the rhyme. A range increase is going to help him a lot more, once more, in the grand scheme of things.Second: you do know how the shieldstun formula works right? More damage = more shield stun and I believe pushback as well. And a number of his sweetspots got damage buffs as did a few of his sourspots. Which in turn means they are safer on shield and keeps them in shieldstun longer. Which in turn gives you a longer time to either grab them (hence the small grab related buffs suggested to complement this + movement speed change) or use another move to apply even more pressure.
And in return, he gets juggled to kingdom come, he can only do one aerial in a short hop at a time, he has to commit too hard for attacks that don't do enough in return, he's forced to stay onstage most of the time for fear of rocketing down to the Abyss, and has to deal with a suckish recovery. Do you know what would help him use his aerials better? Better autocancel windows.The speed also increases the number of combos he can do, as does the damage increases as it also increases hitstun. Those aren't attributes working against him, they're making it so it he has to get past his weaknesses less frequently to seal a stock (and slightly expand his recovery range from off stage). Particularly when you also decrease the dash to shield time, which lets him use his speed to close the gap while being able to react to projectiles or walling moves better. The speed itself means he has to do that less times to close the gap. The gravity/fall speed he has lets him go from air to ground quickly, taking advantage of the sweetspot of his aerials better like say with Nair.
Seriously, I've been trying to say this for a couple of pages.One aerial out of a short hop is very much a consistent weakness across the entire FE cast. Same with staying onstage and sucky recoveries and getting juggled like mad. All very much intended. Patch should be built around that for the whole "not making characters too different between versions and alienating people who don't want to mess up their SSB4 Vanilla abilities" issue, which means while some weaknesses can be slightly tweaked they can't be obliterated. Gotta stick close to their general gameplan.
Roy's gameplan isn't entirely aggro (though it is a part that needs help). Its how people gravitate towards him, but the work I've seen put into him is about using his speed to set up traps which would be a good way to go with him and his build. His range isn't bad for either aggro or trapping situations, and end of the day his range is already pretty good. Not something you buff. Increasing his sweetspot coverage % within that range would be more in order than just... more range period. Its the Sword of Seals not Ragnell or Buster Sword.
This is something else I feel that needs to be pointed out: a fan made patch doesn't magically make everyone great. Look at Project M, despite all of the effort and talent that went into it they never reached that level. And never would. A fan patch can narrow the gaps and range, but there's still going to be a range. And when you need to keep character designs closish to their vanilla counterparts (which you do for a patch to be used much at all), some characters who are at the top are going to stay at the top. Some characters that are at the bottom are going to stay at the bottom. The important thing is if the gap between the top and bottom are smaller.
Side note: Sheik's fair range in general is still fairly dumb regardless of the nerf it got due to her leaning forwards through it and all of that. Not really a good comparison point.
You're right. Marth and roy don't lean in very much for a lot of their attacks. That said a range increase is not the same as a disjoint increase (although it would look similar in the mod since there are no custom animation.) I wan't roy's attacks to reach farther, I don't necessarily want his sword to be longer.Seriously, I've been trying to say this for a couple of pages.
Though being honest Sheik's range is entirely due to the fact that she leans into her attacks. It's like how Link and Marth have the same sword length but different reach because Marth leans into his attacks while Link keeps the sword close liek a shield fighter should. That sadi Roy's actual sword is as long as the average for the swordsmen he just keeps his sword close when swinging which makes for overall shorter reach.
Idealy Ike should only use Aether when recovering very low, it has amazing vertical capability and you'd be surprised with how well you can use Smash 4's new ledge mechanics. It's a very good recovery if you do it right and honestly Ike is probably the one character who will get left alone because he's so well doneI would like to suggest a small change to Ike. In my opinion his character design is really good but I'd like to address his recovery. If he already used his double-jump and has to rely on his up-B, it is pretty much a death-sentence against any character with a good projectile (like Sheiks needles or Pikachus Thunderjolt). It's simply to easy to hit Ike with the projectile over and over again and prevent him from grabbing the ledge.
I think this problem could be solved, if Ike gets back his double-jump if he uses his up-B. This way, he would still be very vulnerable to any spike but not to weak projectiles anymore since he can simply jump onstage after the hit.
But why, One of Ike's weaknesses should be his recovery. In Smash 4 the recovery of characters are already strong enough, we don't need to make off stage play any safer.I would like to suggest a small change to Ike. In my opinion his character design is really good but I'd like to address his recovery. If he already used his double-jump and has to rely on his up-B, it is pretty much a death-sentence against any character with a good projectile (like Sheiks needles or Pikachus Thunderjolt). It's simply to easy to hit Ike with the projectile over and over again and prevent him from grabbing the ledge.
I think this problem could be solved, if Ike gets back his double-jump if he uses his up-B. This way, he would still be very vulnerable to any spike but not to weak projectiles anymore since he can simply jump onstage after the hit.
Given that in Smash 4 offstage play is significantly more low risk than it ever has been. On both sides, the only real risk for one one recovering is taking a strong hit, but that strong hit usually has to come from an aerial which means the other player is taking a risk to go and gimp since they too can be gimped or stage spiked.But why, One of Ike's weaknesses should be his recovery. In Smash 4 the recovery of characters are already strong enough, we don't need to make off stage play any safer.
Let me put this into perspective; he already deals less damage and knockback in the vanilla game, and I'm furthering a huge nerf of his speed by making it only 20% of his original speed, thus making his own running speed less than half of Ganondorf's walking speed. Thus as a result, it's justifiable for opponents to deal only 0.1x the damage on Shulk [10% attacks now deal 1%], and the only way to really give Shulk knockback is a throw.I'm going to say this, if Shulk is to get Super and Heavy armor on everything, ie he will not care about any attacks you do to stop him and the only real way to fight him to to grab and pray you can throw him offstage, he NEEDS a damage or KB nerf with shield, having both armor types and normal damage and KB would make him broken as hell
Shield Shulk is already the heaviest in the game, I think. Such a change sounds unnecessary.Let me put this into perspective; he already deals less damage and knockback in the vanilla game, and I'm furthering a huge nerf of his speed by making it only 20% of his original speed, thus making his own running speed less than half of Ganondorf's walking speed. Thus as a result, it's justifiable for opponents to deal only 0.1x the damage on Shulk [10% attacks now deal 1%], and the only way to really give Shulk knockback is a throw.
Shulk, in the new Monado Shield, is going to have such an extremely tough time to even catch up to the opponent, so it's safe to say that my suggestion of Monado Shield is quite air-tight in terms of balance. Have an even slower Shulk with better defense, but as a result, even less chances to hit opponents since he'd need to be a tank. Hell, I think Shulk would need a damage BUFF just to make it very balanced.
Shield Shulk weighs the same as Shulk afaik. He just takes knockback and damage differently. Same goes for all the other arts.Shield Shulk is already the heaviest in the game, I think. Such a change sounds unnecessary.
Oh really? That sounds needlessly complicated to program.Shield Shulk weighs the same as Shulk afaik. He just takes knockback and damage differently. Same goes for all the other arts.
It's not much different from Doc having speed and damage values read differently from most characters.Oh really? That sounds needlessly complicated to program.
It bothers me deeply that they were too lazy to give Doc his own damage values.It's not much different from Doc having speed and damage values read differently from most characters.
That's not laziness. That's making sure its absolutely consistent. Instead of trying to program in each %, decide "okay how stronger do we want Doc to be" and throwing in that multiplier.It bothers me deeply that they were too lazy to give Doc his own damage values.
"Instead of doing something that takes effort, let's do this thing because it's easier."That's not laziness. That's making sure its absolutely consistent. Instead of trying to program in each %, decide "okay how stronger do we want Doc to be" and throwing in that multiplier.
I really hope this change isn't removed. I honestly preferred the extra combo ability at lower percents with the bigger kill confirm window than the earlier but strict kill confirm window.Color coding:
New.
Updated.
May be revised.
May be removed.
Bowser
- Up Throw:
- Throw KBG: 180 -> 155
You know what they said, but hell, Shulk having the changes is reasonable if his damage output and KB output are poor, and...well...Shield Shulk is already the heaviest in the game, I think. Such a change sounds unnecessary.
It's as I was saying about Roy, if Shield Shulk is already slow and sturdy, why make him slower and sturdier? I mean, the only things that are really going to move Shulk are like, fully charged smash attacks, and he's plenty slow as is. And what about his custom moves? What you're describing is basically what Hyper Shield already is.You know what they said, but hell, Shulk having the changes is reasonable if his damage output and KB output are poor, and...well...
Again, Ganondorf would walk faster than Shield Shulk can run. If that's not much of an incentive to have SA and HA for the mod, I don't know what is. I'm just wanting Shulk to stay somewhat true to Xenoblade Chronicles.
It ends up with exactly the same result. Why go the long route when both end up at the same place... particularly when you have limited time to make a game?"Instead of doing something that takes effort, let's do this thing because it's easier."
You cannot tell me it would take that long to give Doc unique damage values when they've done so for every other clone in the series, including Dr. Mario in Melee. Clones, characters who were thrown haphazardly into the game because the developers had resources to spare. Why would Doc be the exception for any reason other than laziness? Lucina, who's in the game for exact same reason as Doc has her own damage values, and she's twice the clone Doc is.It ends up with exactly the same result. Why go the long route when both end up at the same place... particularly when you have limited time to make a game?
Again, not lazy. Efficient. Kinda have to be when making games, otherwise things get delayed forever.
I thought that was every video game dev's tagline. Hence Soon (TM).And this is Nintendo we're talking about. Their middle name is "delay things forever."
Your point? It's as I said, two clones added to the game for the same reason, one with unique damage values and one without, because laziness. It's really that simple.Lucina is literally in to be easy mode Marth because Marth is "technical" with his tippers. Originally a costume yes, then they realized they could do that and went for it.
Dr.Mario is in to appease the fans of the character from Melee. Again originally a costume yes but they decided that would anger people and decided to change that.
No one told you to take up arms over it, either.Those are two different reasons, and you're getting overly bitter over an irrelevant detail and deciding its
something to call Nintendo "lazy" over.
Did I ever say that their inclusion is lazy? No, I said what they did with Doc was. And Nintendo doesn't delay things? Where have you been? Star Fox Zero? Brawl? Ring a bell?You do realize with the cloneish characters its "this way or not at all because we don't have the time" right? When devs are trying to squeeze in characters that is the opposite if laziness. That is going the extra mile without further delaying the game. Nintendo ain't "delay things forever" outside of "Wii U is failing, time to move games to the NX".
Oh, thank God, I thought you were serious.MarioMeteor Yeah, about that...
If Monado Shield was going to have the changes in the mod, Hyper Monado Shield would be pure intangibility for the mod. Just that Shulk would only run at a 0.001 running speed. [That's a joke too]
What if we gave Pit and DPit some changes, I'm not sure it follows the philosophy of keeping them true to character and smash but what if we gave Dark Pit better air game while keeping his ground game the same, and gave Pit a better ground game while keeping his air game the same.I thought that was every video game dev's tagline. Hence Soon (TM).
I'd also push the thread back on topic, but I can't come up with anything.
He does.It bothers me deeply that they were too lazy to give Doc his own damage values.
The same thing also applies to Dr. Mario's walk speed, run speed, air speed, and air acceleration, where they're either multiplied by 0.81, 0.82, or 0.83. As such, even though Dr. Mario has the exact same speed values as Mario, he moves slower, because of the multipliers that are applied onto him. Of course, fall speed and fast-fall speed are not affected by the multipliers.He does.
It's just that they're also multiplied by 1.2x.
I'm pretty sure all the speed multipliers are 0.82.The same thing also applies to Dr. Mario's walk speed, run speed, air speed, and air acceleration, where they're either multiplied by 0.81, 0.82, or 0.83.
Nope, I've done experiments in regards to the multiplier, and it is NOT 0.82 for the run speed and air speed attributes. It is actually 0.83 for run speed, and 0.81 for air speed.I'm pretty sure all the speed multipliers are 0.82.