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Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

Derpnaster

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If Sulk even had Link's god awful frame data he'd be a high tier with how stupid his range is.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Shaving 20% off the FAF would allow Roy to act out of the move before the opponent is thrown. :V
:162:
Lol, that's actually actual to Roy's abilities in Fire Emblem 6.
Making it into the best command that can connect into a fully charge Usmash.
:laugh:

My bad, howbout shaving off 4 to 7 frames instead...
 

Demonic Steak

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What's the point of these. These characters are already in great condition especially Mewtwo.
Mewtwo is definitely a good character already, I totally agree with that. I saw buffs to Cloud (who has buffs and nerfs) and Diddy Kong (who just has buffs) in the OP, so I assumed it was anything goes and thought it was ok to suggest some minor buffs.

As for the rest of the characters I buffed, Yoshi gets a good mixup with empty hops by punishing shield holders with faster grabs and a kill throw. I can see a drop in power for Down Air so it doesn't eat through shields as much to balance that out.

R.O.B.'s Beep Boop is pretty borked so I wanted to tone Up Air down a bit. Up Throw becomes a better kill move once Beep Boop stops working, a faster Neutral Air could help with combos by not staling Up Air, and Back Air could become a good trumping move. The improved smash attacks might have been more than needed, but opinions. The reduced Gyro distance would make it easier for R.O.B. to pick it up without having to move as much.

Bowser's Down Throw is completely useless as it is now, so making it send opponents at a lower angle would help set up an edgeguard situation near the ledge. The rest of Bowser's buffs are meant to make him safer on shield. Forward Air would be slightly safer on shield if spaced properly and fast falling a back air would be safer in the sense that you're less likely to get nailed by a charged smash attack. Fire Breath getting less endlag also makes it safer on shield and you can react to what your opponent does faster once you've hit them when they tried recovering low. Whirling Fortress being faster means your opponent likely has more distance to close once the animation is done, so unless they're Corrin or have a projectile, they likely won't hit you from where they were standing; the height gained is simply to improve Bowser's recovery. The Down Air buff is mainly because he has it for Up Smash yet didn't get it for Down Air, which didn't make sense to me.

I might not have the right grasp on how this mod is meant to be made, so sorry if I did something wrong.
 

MarioMeteor

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It does when it punishes some of their defensive options.

First of all, his range isn't poor at all. Its not Marth or Ike range but its still better than say Toon Link. Its in the upper 25% of the cast's range. That ain't something you buff.
It's poor for a swordsman who's entire gameplan is to be as aggro as possible. A gunman is going to look awfully stupid trying to win a shootout with a Nerf blaster.
Second: you do know how the shieldstun formula works right? More damage = more shield stun and I believe pushback as well. And a number of his sweetspots got damage buffs as did a few of his sourspots. Which in turn means they are safer on shield and keeps them in shieldstun longer. Which in turn gives you a longer time to either grab them (hence the small grab related buffs suggested to complement this + movement speed change) or use another move to apply even more pressure.
It's not as if Roy's damage-racking is lacking, pardon the rhyme. A range increase is going to help him a lot more, once more, in the grand scheme of things.
The speed also increases the number of combos he can do, as does the damage increases as it also increases hitstun. Those aren't attributes working against him, they're making it so it he has to get past his weaknesses less frequently to seal a stock (and slightly expand his recovery range from off stage). Particularly when you also decrease the dash to shield time, which lets him use his speed to close the gap while being able to react to projectiles or walling moves better. The speed itself means he has to do that less times to close the gap. The gravity/fall speed he has lets him go from air to ground quickly, taking advantage of the sweetspot of his aerials better like say with Nair.
And in return, he gets juggled to kingdom come, he can only do one aerial in a short hop at a time, he has to commit too hard for attacks that don't do enough in return, he's forced to stay onstage most of the time for fear of rocketing down to the Abyss, and has to deal with a suckish recovery. Do you know what would help him use his aerials better? Better autocancel windows.
 

Derpnaster

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Roy has a sword range comparable to Link with the addition of a sweetspot on the hilt. What would be a better option would be to give it the Marth treatment and make the rest of the blade serviceable so that while you may kill later without the sweetspot you can still space out to the tip of his fairly long sword and have some semblance of safety
 

RedMarf78

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Roy's range is not comparable to link's (except in the case of f-smash in whick case link's still has more range). The range of sheik's fair is basically the same as roy's and no matter how you look at things, that's dumb. Making the tips of roy's attacks better would be nice but its far from a priority. If you wanted to space with and rely on using the tip of the sword you'd just play marth.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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One aerial out of a short hop is very much a consistent weakness across the entire FE cast. Same with staying onstage and sucky recoveries and getting juggled like mad. All very much intended. Patch should be built around that for the whole "not making characters too different between versions and alienating people who don't want to mess up their SSB4 Vanilla abilities" issue, which means while some weaknesses can be slightly tweaked they can't be obliterated. Gotta stick close to their general gameplan.

Roy's gameplan isn't entirely aggro (though it is a part that needs help). Its how people gravitate towards him, but the work I've seen put into him is about using his speed to set up traps which would be a good way to go with him and his build. His range isn't bad for either aggro or trapping situations, and end of the day his range is already pretty good. Not something you buff. Increasing his sweetspot coverage % within that range would be more in order than just... more range period. Its the Sword of Seals not Ragnell or Buster Sword.

This is something else I feel that needs to be pointed out: a fan made patch doesn't magically make everyone great. Look at Project M, despite all of the effort and talent that went into it they never reached that level. And never would. A fan patch can narrow the gaps and range, but there's still going to be a range. And when you need to keep character designs closish to their vanilla counterparts (which you do for a patch to be used much at all), some characters who are at the top are going to stay at the top. Some characters that are at the bottom are going to stay at the bottom. The important thing is if the gap between the top and bottom are smaller.

Side note: Sheik's fair range in general is still fairly dumb regardless of the nerf it got due to her leaning forwards through it and all of that. Not really a good comparison point.
 

Derpnaster

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One aerial out of a short hop is very much a consistent weakness across the entire FE cast. Same with staying onstage and sucky recoveries and getting juggled like mad. All very much intended. Patch should be built around that for the whole "not making characters too different between versions and alienating people who don't want to mess up their SSB4 Vanilla abilities" issue, which means while some weaknesses can be slightly tweaked they can't be obliterated. Gotta stick close to their general gameplan.

Roy's gameplan isn't entirely aggro (though it is a part that needs help). Its how people gravitate towards him, but the work I've seen put into him is about using his speed to set up traps which would be a good way to go with him and his build. His range isn't bad for either aggro or trapping situations, and end of the day his range is already pretty good. Not something you buff. Increasing his sweetspot coverage % within that range would be more in order than just... more range period. Its the Sword of Seals not Ragnell or Buster Sword.

This is something else I feel that needs to be pointed out: a fan made patch doesn't magically make everyone great. Look at Project M, despite all of the effort and talent that went into it they never reached that level. And never would. A fan patch can narrow the gaps and range, but there's still going to be a range. And when you need to keep character designs closish to their vanilla counterparts (which you do for a patch to be used much at all), some characters who are at the top are going to stay at the top. Some characters that are at the bottom are going to stay at the bottom. The important thing is if the gap between the top and bottom are smaller.

Side note: Sheik's fair range in general is still fairly dumb regardless of the nerf it got due to her leaning forwards through it and all of that. Not really a good comparison point.
Seriously, I've been trying to say this for a couple of pages.

Though being honest Sheik's range is entirely due to the fact that she leans into her attacks. It's like how Link and Marth have the same sword length but different reach because Marth leans into his attacks while Link keeps the sword close liek a shield fighter should. That sadi Roy's actual sword is as long as the average for the swordsmen he just keeps his sword close when swinging which makes for overall shorter reach.
 

RedMarf78

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Seriously, I've been trying to say this for a couple of pages.

Though being honest Sheik's range is entirely due to the fact that she leans into her attacks. It's like how Link and Marth have the same sword length but different reach because Marth leans into his attacks while Link keeps the sword close liek a shield fighter should. That sadi Roy's actual sword is as long as the average for the swordsmen he just keeps his sword close when swinging which makes for overall shorter reach.
You're right. Marth and roy don't lean in very much for a lot of their attacks. That said a range increase is not the same as a disjoint increase (although it would look similar in the mod since there are no custom animation.) I wan't roy's attacks to reach farther, I don't necessarily want his sword to be longer.

For Nidtendofreak: I know that sheik's fair has really good range. That doesn't at all change the fact that it shouldn't reach as far as roy's fair. If I was using sheik's fair to justify doubling roy's range or something then the compariosn would be invalid; but
I'm not vouching for anything that ridiculous.
 

Radical Larry

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You know, I think Shulk's Monado Arts could have some additions/changes that could work. What I propose is very simple [Buffs and Nerfs, as well as the substantial nature of them, depend on color and shade]:

Monado Jump:
-1.11x damage taken. [From the previous 1.22x]
-0.9x damage dealt.
-1.7x aerial speed. [From the previous 1.5x]

Monado Speed:
-Decreased Rolling FAF: 31 Frames => 21 Frames
-Increased Spot-Dodge Intangibility: 3-18 => 1-28
-0.9x damage dealt. [From the previous 0.8x]
-2.1x Ground Speed. [From the previous 1.7x]


Monado Shield:
-0.1x Damage Taken.
-0.2x Ground and Aerial Speed. [From the previous 0.4x]
-Super Armor Added for all 960 frames active.
-Heavy Armor Added for all 960 frames active.


Monado Buster:
-Decreased Spot-Dodge Intangibility: 3-18 => 3-8
-Decreased Roll Intangibility: 4-17 => 5-12

-2.1x damage dealt. [From the previous 1.4x]
-Back Slash Back Damage Dealt: 24.9% [due to damage change] => 42%

Monado Smash:
-1.25x knockback dealt. [From the previous 1.18x]

Reasons:
Monado Jump having an increase in aerial speed and some buffs to damage taken and dealt will aid Shulk's survivability, while also ramping up recovery and aerial combo game. The Monado Speed buff would aid evasiveness like it does within Xenoblade Chronicles. As well, Monado Shield has a buff that it has in Xenoblade Chronicles, reducing many attacks of the opponent to nothing as Shulk gains Super and Heavy Armor and can take one hell of a hit. However, there is a nerf in that Monado Shield's current speed is halved from 40% speed to 20% speed.

As for Monado Buster, I was unsure if it was even possible to have Buster harm the more mechanical enemies further [if it did, it would do 3x damage, not 2.1x], but since that was not possible, a 2.1x damage counter is used in the stead. With Back Slash, it seems silly at first, but know that it would act like Monado Buster, except that it has the potential to hit more than once. However, since Monado Buster would deal more damage, a nerf is that his dodges are very...dodgy.

Smash is just Smash, meant to be KB heavy.

The changes would reflect Shulk's overall Xenoblade style, where Speed was meant to help his evasion, Shield was meant to keep him from taking much damage or even get knocked down, and Buster dealing absurd damage to the opponent. Too bad Monado Cyclone and God aren't in this game, or else we'd have opponents being dazed and Palutena herself receiving 5x damage and knockback.
 

Derpnaster

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I'm going to say this, if Shulk is to get Super and Heavy armor on everything, ie he will not care about any attacks you do to stop him and the only real way to fight him to to grab and pray you can throw him offstage, he NEEDS a damage or KB nerf with shield, having both armor types and normal damage and KB would make him broken as hell
 

KingJigglypuff

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Again, this post isn't directed towards anyone specifically, but something I'd like to address are some/most of the suggestions in this thread not having much explanation to them. There are some well written posts in this thread, so they have my kudos on that.

While it's nice of me to say that everyone's free to suggest changes, it would be best if I set a restriction to that. If you want to suggest something, please explain in the best possible way you can why X, Y, and/or Z, etc should be changed. You're also free to elaborate on your experiences with the character as well.

Don't think you need to write massive essays though. Just explain in the best way you're able to.

Hopefully, this will quell some of the criticisms about me just letting anyone suggest something.
 

The Pi(e) Man

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I would like to suggest a small change to Ike. In my opinion his character design is really good but I'd like to address his recovery. If he already used his double-jump and has to rely on his up-B, it is pretty much a death-sentence against any character with a good projectile (like Sheiks needles or Pikachus Thunderjolt). It's simply to easy to hit Ike with the projectile over and over again and prevent him from grabbing the ledge.
I think this problem could be solved, if Ike gets back his double-jump if he uses his up-B. This way, he would still be very vulnerable to any spike but not to weak projectiles anymore since he can simply jump onstage after the hit.
 

Derpnaster

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I would like to suggest a small change to Ike. In my opinion his character design is really good but I'd like to address his recovery. If he already used his double-jump and has to rely on his up-B, it is pretty much a death-sentence against any character with a good projectile (like Sheiks needles or Pikachus Thunderjolt). It's simply to easy to hit Ike with the projectile over and over again and prevent him from grabbing the ledge.
I think this problem could be solved, if Ike gets back his double-jump if he uses his up-B. This way, he would still be very vulnerable to any spike but not to weak projectiles anymore since he can simply jump onstage after the hit.
Idealy Ike should only use Aether when recovering very low, it has amazing vertical capability and you'd be surprised with how well you can use Smash 4's new ledge mechanics. It's a very good recovery if you do it right and honestly Ike is probably the one character who will get left alone because he's so well done

If you're recovering high just use side special.
 
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SageX3

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I would like to suggest a small change to Ike. In my opinion his character design is really good but I'd like to address his recovery. If he already used his double-jump and has to rely on his up-B, it is pretty much a death-sentence against any character with a good projectile (like Sheiks needles or Pikachus Thunderjolt). It's simply to easy to hit Ike with the projectile over and over again and prevent him from grabbing the ledge.
I think this problem could be solved, if Ike gets back his double-jump if he uses his up-B. This way, he would still be very vulnerable to any spike but not to weak projectiles anymore since he can simply jump onstage after the hit.
But why, One of Ike's weaknesses should be his recovery. In Smash 4 the recovery of characters are already strong enough, we don't need to make off stage play any safer.
 

Derpnaster

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But why, One of Ike's weaknesses should be his recovery. In Smash 4 the recovery of characters are already strong enough, we don't need to make off stage play any safer.
Given that in Smash 4 offstage play is significantly more low risk than it ever has been. On both sides, the only real risk for one one recovering is taking a strong hit, but that strong hit usually has to come from an aerial which means the other player is taking a risk to go and gimp since they too can be gimped or stage spiked.

Only projectile characters have a chance at long range gimps but that's just the way projectiles work. Saying that a certain recovery should be better because it can be gimped by projectiles is like saying that Jigglypuff should get super armor because she can be killed by strong hits. It just doesn't work
 

Radical Larry

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I'm going to say this, if Shulk is to get Super and Heavy armor on everything, ie he will not care about any attacks you do to stop him and the only real way to fight him to to grab and pray you can throw him offstage, he NEEDS a damage or KB nerf with shield, having both armor types and normal damage and KB would make him broken as hell
Let me put this into perspective; he already deals less damage and knockback in the vanilla game, and I'm furthering a huge nerf of his speed by making it only 20% of his original speed, thus making his own running speed less than half of Ganondorf's walking speed. Thus as a result, it's justifiable for opponents to deal only 0.1x the damage on Shulk [10% attacks now deal 1%], and the only way to really give Shulk knockback is a throw.

Shulk, in the new Monado Shield, is going to have such an extremely tough time to even catch up to the opponent, so it's safe to say that my suggestion of Monado Shield is quite air-tight in terms of balance. Have an even slower Shulk with better defense, but as a result, even less chances to hit opponents since he'd need to be a tank. Hell, I think Shulk would need a damage BUFF just to make it very balanced.
 

MarioMeteor

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Let me put this into perspective; he already deals less damage and knockback in the vanilla game, and I'm furthering a huge nerf of his speed by making it only 20% of his original speed, thus making his own running speed less than half of Ganondorf's walking speed. Thus as a result, it's justifiable for opponents to deal only 0.1x the damage on Shulk [10% attacks now deal 1%], and the only way to really give Shulk knockback is a throw.

Shulk, in the new Monado Shield, is going to have such an extremely tough time to even catch up to the opponent, so it's safe to say that my suggestion of Monado Shield is quite air-tight in terms of balance. Have an even slower Shulk with better defense, but as a result, even less chances to hit opponents since he'd need to be a tank. Hell, I think Shulk would need a damage BUFF just to make it very balanced.
Shield Shulk is already the heaviest in the game, I think. Such a change sounds unnecessary.
 

Furret24

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Shield Shulk is already the heaviest in the game, I think. Such a change sounds unnecessary.
Shield Shulk weighs the same as Shulk afaik. He just takes knockback and damage differently. Same goes for all the other arts.
:162:
 

MarioMeteor

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It's not much different from Doc having speed and damage values read differently from most characters. :p
:162:
It bothers me deeply that they were too lazy to give Doc his own damage values.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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It bothers me deeply that they were too lazy to give Doc his own damage values.
That's not laziness. That's making sure its absolutely consistent. Instead of trying to program in each %, decide "okay how stronger do we want Doc to be" and throwing in that multiplier.
 

MarioMeteor

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That's not laziness. That's making sure its absolutely consistent. Instead of trying to program in each %, decide "okay how stronger do we want Doc to be" and throwing in that multiplier.
"Instead of doing something that takes effort, let's do this thing because it's easier."
 

MrGameguycolor

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About the update to the changes on Bowser's from the 1st post:

Color coding:
New.
Updated.
May be revised.
May be removed.



:4bowser: Bowser
  • Up Throw:
    • Throw KBG: 180 -> 155
I really hope this change isn't removed. I honestly preferred the extra combo ability at lower percents with the bigger kill confirm window than the earlier but strict kill confirm window.
 

Radical Larry

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Shield Shulk is already the heaviest in the game, I think. Such a change sounds unnecessary.
You know what they said, but hell, Shulk having the changes is reasonable if his damage output and KB output are poor, and...well...

Again, Ganondorf would walk faster than Shield Shulk can run. If that's not much of an incentive to have SA and HA for the mod, I don't know what is. I'm just wanting Shulk to stay somewhat true to Xenoblade Chronicles.
 

MarioMeteor

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You know what they said, but hell, Shulk having the changes is reasonable if his damage output and KB output are poor, and...well...

Again, Ganondorf would walk faster than Shield Shulk can run. If that's not much of an incentive to have SA and HA for the mod, I don't know what is. I'm just wanting Shulk to stay somewhat true to Xenoblade Chronicles.
It's as I was saying about Roy, if Shield Shulk is already slow and sturdy, why make him slower and sturdier? I mean, the only things that are really going to move Shulk are like, fully charged smash attacks, and he's plenty slow as is. And what about his custom moves? What you're describing is basically what Hyper Shield already is.
 

Nidtendofreak

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"Instead of doing something that takes effort, let's do this thing because it's easier."
It ends up with exactly the same result. Why go the long route when both end up at the same place... particularly when you have limited time to make a game?

Again, not lazy. Efficient. Kinda have to be when making games, otherwise things get delayed forever.
 

MarioMeteor

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It ends up with exactly the same result. Why go the long route when both end up at the same place... particularly when you have limited time to make a game?

Again, not lazy. Efficient. Kinda have to be when making games, otherwise things get delayed forever.
You cannot tell me it would take that long to give Doc unique damage values when they've done so for every other clone in the series, including Dr. Mario in Melee. Clones, characters who were thrown haphazardly into the game because the developers had resources to spare. Why would Doc be the exception for any reason other than laziness? Lucina, who's in the game for exact same reason as Doc has her own damage values, and she's twice the clone Doc is.

And this is Nintendo we're talking about. Their middle name is "delay things forever."
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Lucina is literally in to be easy mode Marth because Marth is "technical" with his tippers. Originally a costume yes, then they realized they could do that and went for it.

Dr.Mario is in to appease the fans of the character from Melee. Again originally a costume yes but they decided that would anger people and decided to change that.

Those are two different reasons, and you're getting overly bitter over an irrelevant detail and deciding its something to call Nintendo "lazy" over.

You do realize with the cloneish characters its "this way or not at all because we don't have the time" right? When devs are trying to squeeze in characters that is the opposite if laziness. That is going the extra mile without further delaying the game. Nintendo ain't "delay things forever" outside of "Wii U is failing, time to move games to the NX".
 

Derpnaster

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So I have experience with many Game Devs. As a whole they look for almost as many shortcuts as any decent IT admin will do.

Not going to lie, many people aren't lazy, but almost all of them will look for shortcuts that they can reuse later.
 
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Eugene Wang

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And this is Nintendo we're talking about. Their middle name is "delay things forever."
I thought that was every video game dev's tagline. Hence Soon (TM).

I'd also push the thread back on topic, but I can't come up with anything. :(
 
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Radical Larry

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MarioMeteor MarioMeteor Yeah, about that...

If Monado Shield was going to have the changes in the mod, Hyper Monado Shield would be pure intangibility for the mod. Just that Shulk would only run at a 0.001 running speed. [That's a joke too]
 
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MarioMeteor

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Lucina is literally in to be easy mode Marth because Marth is "technical" with his tippers. Originally a costume yes, then they realized they could do that and went for it.

Dr.Mario is in to appease the fans of the character from Melee. Again originally a costume yes but they decided that would anger people and decided to change that.
Your point? It's as I said, two clones added to the game for the same reason, one with unique damage values and one without, because laziness. It's really that simple.
Those are two different reasons, and you're getting overly bitter over an irrelevant detail and deciding its
something to call Nintendo "lazy" over.
No one told you to take up arms over it, either.
You do realize with the cloneish characters its "this way or not at all because we don't have the time" right? When devs are trying to squeeze in characters that is the opposite if laziness. That is going the extra mile without further delaying the game. Nintendo ain't "delay things forever" outside of "Wii U is failing, time to move games to the NX".
Did I ever say that their inclusion is lazy? No, I said what they did with Doc was. And Nintendo doesn't delay things? Where have you been? Star Fox Zero? Brawl? Ring a bell?
MarioMeteor MarioMeteor Yeah, about that...

If Monado Shield was going to have the changes in the mod, Hyper Monado Shield would be pure intangibility for the mod. Just that Shulk would only run at a 0.001 running speed. [That's a joke too]
Oh, thank God, I thought you were serious.
 

Derpnaster

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I thought that was every video game dev's tagline. Hence Soon (TM).

I'd also push the thread back on topic, but I can't come up with anything. :(
What if we gave Pit and DPit some changes, I'm not sure it follows the philosophy of keeping them true to character and smash but what if we gave Dark Pit better air game while keeping his ground game the same, and gave Pit a better ground game while keeping his air game the same.

Because Dark Pit can Fly, Pit can't
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Frankly, I wouldn't change any of Shulk's attributes, but at least make his attacks not have so much start-up lag. And of course, even though Smash increases the knockback of Shulk's attacks, he still can't make quick KOs with it, forcing him to have to build up damage until his foe's current damage hits 100% or higher.

He does.
It's just that they're also multiplied by 1.2x.
The same thing also applies to Dr. Mario's walk speed, run speed, air speed, and air acceleration, where they're either multiplied by 0.81, 0.82, or 0.83. As such, even though Dr. Mario has the exact same speed values as Mario, he moves slower, because of the multipliers that are applied onto him. Of course, fall speed and fast-fall speed are not affected by the multipliers.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I'm pretty sure all the speed multipliers are 0.82.
Nope, I've done experiments in regards to the multiplier, and it is NOT 0.82 for the run speed and air speed attributes. It is actually 0.83 for run speed, and 0.81 for air speed.

For my evidence...

Run Speed
1.6 * 1.061 = 1.6976

With his run speed set at 1.6976, Dr. Mario runs slightly faster than Link, whose run speed is set at 1.3944. If Dr. Mario's run speed multipler was 0.82, he would've ended up running a bit "slower" than Link.

1.6976 * 0.83 = 1.409008

Air Speed
1.15 * 1.061 = 1.22015

With his air speed set at 1.22015, Dr. Mario still moves slower in the air than Bowser and Robin, whose air speed values are set at 1. If Dr. Mario's air speed multipler was 0.82, he would've moved a bit "faster" in the air than them.

1.22015 * 0.81 = 0.9883215
 
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