Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[MarioMeteor]

He does.
It's just that they're also multiplied by 1.2x.

1.12x. Anyway, that's still not unique, and as @Mario & Sonic Guy pointed out, he doesn't have his own unique attributes. I bet you he'd be a hell of a lot better if he actually had thought put into his design.

 

[Derpnaster]

Eh, it is what it is and now we have to work with it. Bunch of devs took a shortcut and now we have a strange variable in the code that messes with any changes made.

That said, I've been playing around with Roy to get a better feel for him.

Firstly Hold off the salt/flames, it's just an observation and the result of my natural tendency to adapt to what I have in strange ways.

Roy to me feels like the Punish game swordsman, He's got a lot of ground speed and good airspeed, which feel just right for him, so no changes really needed there so far. His sword is just weird. Because it's basically a reverse Falchion in that it has a sweetspot on the hilt it requires Roy to be very close, which to a swordsman is counterintuitive. I also noticed that his sword can't do jack if you practice normal sword spacing. Which is where my first ideal change would be. Add about 10 points of knockback to the BKB, and keep the growth the same. This way Roy's tippers get some use, more as combo tools, and if he has to play neutral it won't kill him.

The second thing I noticed it Dancing Blade has trouble Linking up.

It reminds me more of Marth's Melee Dancing Blade which was almost never used. Adjustments to make it link more consistently would be appreciated by players.

Beyond that I really don't think Roy needs any real changes. He's very good it's just some of his tools that are not really useful.

 

[Deleted member]

Eh, it is what it is and now we have to work with it. Bunch of devs took a shortcut and now we have a strange variable in the code that messes with any changes made.

That said, I've been playing around with Roy to get a better feel for him.

Firstly Hold off the salt/flames, it's just an observation and the result of my natural tendency to adapt to what I have in strange ways.

Roy to me feels like the Punish game swordsman, He's got a lot of ground speed and good airspeed, which feel just right for him, so no changes really needed there so far. His sword is just weird. Because it's basically a reverse Falchion in that it has a sweetspot on the hilt it requires Roy to be very close, which to a swordsman is counterintuitive. I also noticed that his sword can't do jack if you practice normal sword spacing. Which is where my first ideal change would be. Add about 10 points of knockback to the BKB, and keep the growth the same. This way Roy's tippers get some use, more as combo tools, and if he has to play neutral it won't kill him.

The second thing I noticed it Dancing Blade has trouble Linking up.

It reminds me more of Marth's Melee Dancing Blade which was almost never used. Adjustments to make it link more consistently would be appreciated by players.

Beyond that I really don't think Roy needs any real changes. He's very good it's just some of his tools that are not really useful.

Why does everybody care about Dancing Blade so much?

 

[Yoshister]

Why does everybody care about Dancing Blade so much?

Because Roy's is garbage.

Also Roy's main issue imo is being walled out easily, poor range, and below average frame data.

Also if he had moves that killed before 100% besides side smash that'd be nice.

 

[Derpnaster]

Being walled out is pretty much every swordsman's primary weakness.
His reach, (I use range to define a projectile) is pretty good if you include his entire sword. It's just that his entire sword is bad except for the part people care about. Even Marth can do things without his tippers, he wouldn't kill until very late, but he could use his hilt in combination with his tippers for nasty combos, Roy as it is doesn't have that.

Killing before 100% is honestly not a problem because Roy can rack up damage on solid hits, and do so very quickly.

As to Dancing Blade.
I care because I can see many uses for it, if it could just link into it's own hits. It has pretty good power and utility, it's just the worst at actually getting to the end without the opponet getting out.

For example, Dancing Blade Down (Green from here on out) can be a Shield Poking tool while Dancing Blade UP (Blue) would be awesome if it could Link from hit 3 Green to Hit 4 Blue as a stock cap against heavy shield users.

Again, that suggestion was JUST AN OPINION and only based off of what I noticed for felt while using Roy,

Which I honestly can boil down to a few simple points.

Make his entire sword useful, not just the hilt

Make his moves overall link better, not in a way that makes him an unstoppable combo machine, but give him options when he goes on offense.

Make Dancing blade link with all of it's hits and alterations to said hits,

 

[JWai]

Some ideas I have:

• FIX ROBIN'S GRAB! It should be similar to the other FE characters in terms of range and endlag.
• Increase the durability points of Robin's weapons:
  • Levin Sword: 8 -> 12
  • Thunder: 20 -> 20
  • Arcfire: 6 -> 8
  • Elwind: 18 -> 24
  • Nosferatu: 4 -> 4
• Universal increase on hitbox sizes to give Robin a more effective disjoint. Doesn't need to be drastic, preferably increases similar to what Marcina got in patch 1.1.4 (increases ranging from 0.25u - 2u)
• Slight buff to ground mobility
  • Dash speed: 1.15 -> 1.27 (tied with Villager)

• Attributes:
  • Air speed: 1.02 -> 1.1
• Throws
  • Fthrow:
    • Base knockback: 100 -> 70
    • Knockback growth: 50 -> 45
  • Uthrow:
    • Damage: 4% -> 5%
  • Dthrow:
    • Base knockback: 95 -> 65
    • Angle: 100 -> 135
• Aerials:
  • Nair:
    • Autocancel: 47 -> 25
    • Landing lag: 12 -> 9
  • Fair:
    • Hitbox active: 6-8 -> 4-7
    • FAF: 38 -> 30
    • Autocancel: 36 -> 27
    • Landing lag: 16 -> 9
  • Uair:
    • Autocancel: 38 -> 27
    • Landing lag: 14 -> 9
  • Dair:
    • Tipper hitboxes meteor smash
    • Autocancel: 55 -> 48
• Specials
  • Shieldbreaker (Lucina):
    • Base knockback: 45 -> 55
  • Shieldbreaker (both):
    • Uncharged shield damage: 25 -> 30

• Attributes:
  • Dash speed: 1.45 -> 1.5
  • Air speed: 0.97 -> 1
  • Just restoring prepatch mobility for the reason below
• Dragon Fang Shot: Modify the FAF in a way to make it easier to follow up on the DFS.

 

[Derpnaster]

Just saying, Marth and Lucina both have a meteor on the tip of their Dair, it's just not out for the entirety of the attack like it used to be, probably a balance thing because hitting the tip is a bit easier in a floaty environment.

That said A lot of this looks good.
Though I'm not certain Corin needs much in the way of more mobility, she is pretty good there.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Why does everybody care about Dancing Blade so much?

Because it's one of the Hero-Kings (and Roy's) most important tools.

Eh, it is what it is and now we have to work with it. Bunch of devs took a shortcut and now we have a strange variable in the code that messes with any changes made.

That said, I've been playing around with Roy to get a better feel for him.

Firstly Hold off the salt/flames, it's just an observation and the result of my natural tendency to adapt to what I have in strange ways.

Roy to me feels like the Punish game swordsman, He's got a lot of ground speed and good airspeed, which feel just right for him, so no changes really needed there so far. His sword is just weird. Because it's basically a reverse Falchion in that it has a sweetspot on the hilt it requires Roy to be very close, which to a swordsman is counterintuitive. I also noticed that his sword can't do jack if you practice normal sword spacing. Which is where my first ideal change would be. Add about 10 points of knockback to the BKB, and keep the growth the same. This way Roy's tippers get some use, more as combo tools, and if he has to play neutral it won't kill him.

The second thing I noticed it Dancing Blade has trouble Linking up.

It reminds me more of Marth's Melee Dancing Blade which was almost never used. Adjustments to make it link more consistently would be appreciated by players.

Beyond that I really don't think Roy needs any real changes. He's very good it's just some of his tools that are not really useful.

It's not that he's a bad character per say, it's that there's a lot of things keeping him from being better, which results in a lot of characters being better than him in turn. Like I keep saying, give him an actual sword instead of a tree branch and let him actually have autocancels and he'll be up there with the best of them.

 

[Eugene Wang]

You say Roy's a punish character, but Roy's bad acceleration and lack of poking tools (Sour nair is his main poke) makes it hard for him to bait the opponent into creating an opening.

The consensus is that Roy is best on the offensive. Except he kinda struggles with shields, especially at the percents where he's trying to kill. He has to read to get kills, and if he makes a bad read, he gets juggled, thrown offstage, comboed, or whatever disadvantage state the opponent wants him in. Hence my conclusion that Roy needs autocancels, more damage, better throws, or a combination of these to be as effective as his damage output would suggest.

 

[Derpnaster]

You say Roy's a punish character, but Roy's bad acceleration and lack of poking tools (Sour nair is his main poke) makes it hard for him to bait the opponent into creating an opening.

The consensus is that Roy is best on the offensive. Except he kinda struggles with shields. Hence my conclusion that Roy needs autocancels, more damage, better throws, or a combination of these to be as effective as his damage output would suggest.

I didn't feel hindered at all by Roy's movement, Honestly I don't see where his movement is at all bad it's a lot better than Link's who has to use projectiles to compensate as it is, and it feels about on part with, Ike overall, which makes sense given his burst output.

Punishing isn't all about moving better, it's about slipping in between gaps and making your opponet pay. I think Roy can do that, it's not traditional punish game of keep dancing at the edge of their range until they make a mistake, but it feels more like get in their face and capitalize on any mistakes you force. Giving him the tools to force such mistakes can make that better.

(Also seriously people I said that everything I suggest is based off of personal experience we're all allowed to have our own playstyles aren't we?)

 

[MarioMeteor]

I didn't feel hindered at all by Roy's movement, Honestly I don't see where his movement is at all bad it's a lot better than Link's who has to use projectiles to compensate as it is, and it feels about on part with, Ike overall, which makes sense given his burst output.

Punishing isn't all about moving better, it's about slipping in between gaps and making your opponet pay. I think Roy can do that, it's not traditional punish game of keep dancing at the edge of their range until they make a mistake, but it feels more like get in their face and capitalize on any mistakes you force. Giving him the tools to force such mistakes can make that better.

(Also seriously people I said that everything I suggest is based off of personal experience we're all allowed to have our own playstyles aren't we?)

I think what he's saying is that between his low air acceleration, high gravity, and absurd falling speed, Roy is essentially forced to commit to everything he does, meaning that HE'LL be the one getting punished more often than not.

 

[Derpnaster]

I think what he's saying is that between his low air acceleration, high gravity, and absurd falling speed, Roy is essentially forced to commit to everything he does, meaning that HE'LL be the one getting punished more often than not.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[JWai]

Some ideas I have:

• FIX ROBIN'S GRAB! It should be similar to the other FE characters in terms of range and endlag.
• Increase the durability points of Robin's weapons:
  • Levin Sword: 8 -> 12
  • Thunder: 20 -> 20
  • Arcfire: 6 -> 8
  • Elwind: 18 -> 24
  • Nosferatu: 4 -> 4
• Universal increase on hitbox sizes to give Robin a more effective disjoint. Doesn't need to be drastic, preferably increases similar to what Marcina got in patch 1.1.4 (increases ranging from 0.25u - 2u)
• Slight buff to ground mobility
  • Dash speed: 1.15 -> 1.27 (tied with Villager)

• Attributes:
  • Air speed: 1.02 -> 1.1
• Throws
  • Fthrow:
    • Base knockback: 100 -> 70
    • Knockback growth: 50 -> 45
  • Uthrow:
    • Damage: 4% -> 5%
  • Dthrow:
    • Base knockback: 95 -> 65
    • Angle: 100 -> 135
• Aerials:
  • Nair:
    • Autocancel: 47 -> 25
    • Landing lag: 12 -> 9
  • Fair:
    • Hitbox active: 6-8 -> 4-7
    • FAF: 38 -> 30
    • Autocancel: 36 -> 27
    • Landing lag: 16 -> 9
  • Uair:
    • Autocancel: 38 -> 27
    • Landing lag: 14 -> 9
  • Dair:
    • Tipper hitboxes meteor smash
    • Autocancel: 55 -> 48
• Specials
  • Shieldbreaker (Lucina):
    • Base knockback: 45 -> 55
  • Shieldbreaker (both):
    • Uncharged shield damage: 25 -> 30

• Attributes:
  • Dash speed: 1.45 -> 1.5
  • Air speed: 0.97 -> 1
  • Just restoring prepatch mobility for the reason below
• Dragon Fang Shot: Modify the FAF in a way to make it easier to follow up on the DFS.

Just to be clear, the changes to Marth and Lucina are to give them much stronger combo game, spacing game, edgeguarding, and grab followups. Most of those changes are actually reverting Marth and Lucina to Melee/Brawl!Marth. The dair changes makes it far less situational and more useful for edgeguarding. These changes may also restore the Ken combo. Not sure though.

The Robin changes are mainly to improve her weaker areas, but not drastic improvements that ruin her playstyle. The increase in some weapon durability makes it so that Robin doesn't run out of tomes or Levin Sword too early. The grab changes and increase to dash speed make it much easier for her to land grabs, which is important for her game plan due to her dthrow combos and Checkmate.

The Corrin buffs are only to make DFS followups easier, that's it. Otherwise, the mobility changes are not really needed if the reduction on the FAF of DFS is effective enough.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Just to be clear, the changes to Marth and Lucina are to give them much stronger combo game, spacing game, edgeguarding, and grab followups. Most of those changes are actually reverting Marth and Lucina to Melee/Brawl!Marth. The dair changes makes it far less situational and more useful for edgeguarding. These changes may also restore the Ken combo. Not sure though.

The Robin changes are mainly to improve her weaker areas, but not drastic improvements that ruin her playstyle. The increase in some weapon durability makes it so that Robin doesn't run out of tomes or Levin Sword too early. The grab changes and increase to dash speed make it much easier for her to land grabs, which is important for her game plan due to her dthrow combos and Checkmate.

The Corrin buffs are only to make DFS followups easier, that's it. Otherwise, the mobility changes are not really needed if the reduction on the FAF of DFS is effective enough.

Two things: one, the frame 4 forward air for the Hero-Kings seems a bit much. Two, I think in return for her restored mobility, Corrin should get Dragon Lunge's power toned down.

 

[JWai]

Two things: one, the frame 4 forward air for the Hero-Kings seems a bit much. Two, I think in return for her restored mobility, Corrin should get Dragon Lunge's power toned down.

Ok, I can agree with the frame 4 fair being a bad idea. I just wanted to make sure Marcina's fair was a reliable all-purpose move (spacing, combos, approaching, etc), but it's current frame 6 startup in Sm4sh might be good enough. Maybe frame 5 instead?

As for Corrin, I only wanted to make DFS a more reliable paralyzer, hence the restored mobility and DFS changes. I don't think Dragon Lunge needs any nerfs since the sourspot hit is extremely weak and has no KO potential at all, so it needs that strong tipper hit to make up for its weakness.

 

[Radical Larry]

So I was going to say something about adding 5 more Monado Arts, but JWai here are some additional [or different] changes that need to be kind of put in for Ken Combos to properly work.

• Attributes:
  • Weight Decreased: 90 => 84
    
  • Falling Speed Increased: 1.58 => 1.8
  • Fast-Falling Speed Increased: 2.528 => 2.8
  • Gravity: 0.085 => 0.075
• Aerials:
  • Forward Aerial [Marth Only]:
    • Start-Up Decreased: 6-8 => 5-7
    • Base Knockback Changed: 40 => 20/24/30 [From Base to Tip]
    • Knockback Growth Changed: 80/80/90 => 70
  • Forward Aerial [Both]:
    • Angle Changed: 361 => 80
  • Down Aerial:
    • Start-Up Decreased: 9-13 => 8-12
    • FAF Increased: 60 Frames => 70 Frames
    • [Lucina Specific] Meteor Hitboxes extend half-way to the blade.
    • [Marth Specific] Meteor Hitbox Size Increase by 2 Units.

Lowering the gravity to their Melee counterparts would give them somewhat of a better chance to Ken Combo. It also brings them back to Marth's Melee incarnation. F-Air has 1 more start-up frame than Melee for balance sake of course, and FAF is unchanged at 38 to keep it from being overpowering. However, the BKB and KBG have been changed to resemble Marth's knockback from Melee. Both Lucina and Marth have hitbox angles of 80 degrees, making it to where the opponent is sent somewhat upward to be combo'd, but the opponent still has the chance to DI out of their attack.

Now for Lucina's D-Air, it's been extended to half of the blade since Lucina should have differences to Marth. However, Marth's meteor hitboxes would grow by 2 units, making them a bit bigger as a result and easier to hit the opponent.

In the end, Ken Combos would be easier to hit and Marcina's combo game would be even better since F-Air could link into U-Air and U-Spec, and even another F-Air properly. Your other changes were, however, quite nice.

But there are nerfs, too. While Falling Speed and Fast-Falling speed itself isn't all that bad, combine it with Down Aerial's 70 frame FAF and you'll know how you need to keep it safe when using down aerial. As well, their weight is nerfed to being 84 so that their survivability is weakened, and since gravity is weaker on them, survivability is even worse for them. In order to keep their huge buffs in check, nerfs have to be made, too.

I'll talk about Link, Ryu and Dededestruction later today.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ok, I can agree with the frame 4 fair being a bad idea. I just wanted to make sure Marcina's fair was a reliable all-purpose move (spacing, combos, approaching, etc), but it's current frame 6 startup in Sm4sh might be good enough. Maybe frame 5 instead?

Yeah, frame 5 is good, I suppose. With the decreased lag, plus how differently hitstun works in this game, having it be frame 4 would be disgusting.

As for Corrin, I only wanted to make DFS a more reliable paralyzer, hence the restored mobility and DFS changes. I don't think Dragon Lunge needs any nerfs since the sourspot hit is extremely weak and has no KO potential at all, so it needs that strong tipper hit to make up for its weakness.

If you don't tipper it though, you get to pin them, and the kick has good KO power, too.

 

[Eugene Wang]

I'd leave the Marth ken combos for Smash minus. But of course, that's my opinion, and if you can make sure Marth play doesn't devolve into fishing for spike setups, then I can accept a Marth that can Ken combo.

 

[Derpnaster]

I honestly would not use anything from melee, it is probably one of the worst balanced games in the smash series (Bar 64) and honestly it's style of play is outdated. Smash has moved on from all aggro super combo brothers and has become a much more diverse game where you have more than just four characters to worry about.

If anything we should be using Brawl as an example and in limited situations even Project M serves as a better example of balance the Melee

 

[Eugene Wang]

Meta knight was banned from competitive play for being broken, Ice Climbers won over most of the cast and made for boring matches, King Dedede shut down a third of the cast, and ledge stalling was a universal winning strategy, so much that almost every tournament had a rule specifically to deal with it. I don't think many people would take Brawl to be well-balanced.

 

[Derpnaster]

Meta knight was banned from competitive play for being broken, Ice Climbers won over most of the cast and made for boring matches, King Dedede shut down a third of the cast, and ledge stalling was a universal winning strategy, so much that almost every tournament had a rule specifically to deal with it. I don't think many people would take Brawl to be well-balanced.

Didn't say it was perfect, but it still had better balance that melee, at least in Brawl you had a chance with most of the cast. I think only a few were considered hopeless (RIP Ganon, Zelda, and Link. You all gave it your best)

Also new monthly Tier List out of Reddit, Might prove useful for helping us until 4BR gives us a stable list to work with.

http://imgur.com/gallery/DeiY361

 

[SageX3]

Didn't say it was perfect, but it still had better balance that melee, at least in Brawl you had a chance with most of the cast. I think only a few were considered hopeless (RIP Ganon, Zelda, and Link. You all gave it your best)

Also new monthly Tier List out of Reddit, Might prove useful for helping us until 4BR gives us a stable list to work with.

http://imgur.com/gallery/DeiY361

I just checked out that tier list. Never use a tier list from Reddit. Use Esam's or ZeRo's tier list. They are easily accessible and much better.

 

[Radical Larry]

People must be using the tallest Mii Sword Fighter. I used to think he was bad, but of course...
I was horribly wrong. If you play a Medium or Small Sword Fighter, you might as well give up Cloud.

 

[Derpnaster]

All miis, from what I understand, use Guest A, which is pretty tall now that I think about it. It's a bit taller than Link.

On the Tier list, the only time I've ever really used it was for a Low Tier event, We considered using others but we all agreed ESAM tends to overstate some characters and write off others, and we just didn't look up Zero's, Also Reddit gave us more low tiers which meant more fun and character selection.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm sorry, but no. No, no, no, no, no! Some of these Marth suggestions are very, VERY poor. I get that these are ambitious ideas, but some of these changes are incredibly drastic, not what Marth specifically needs, or are pointless. Take it from a Marth main; most things he needs are incredibly minor. Some of these things are quite simply, ridiculous. Let me point each of you out and explain why Marth doesn't need these things, and explain what he does actually need.

• Attributes:
  • Air speed: 1.02 -> 1.1
• Throws
  • Fthrow:
    • Base knockback: 100 -> 70
    • Knockback growth: 50 -> 45
  • Uthrow:
    • Damage: 4% -> 5%
  • Dthrow:
    • Base knockback: 95 -> 65
    • Angle: 100 -> 135
• Aerials:
  • Nair:
    • Autocancel: 47 -> 25
    • Landing lag: 12 -> 9
  • Fair:
    • Hitbox active: 6-8 -> 4-7
    • FAF: 38 -> 30
    • Autocancel: 36 -> 27
    • Landing lag: 16 -> 9
  • Uair:
    • Autocancel: 38 -> 27
    • Landing lag: 14 -> 9
  • Dair:
    • Tipper hitboxes meteor smash
    • Autocancel: 55 -> 48

I can tell from years of Marth experience, that what is suggested for the aerials, is literally just combination of all the strong points of Marth's Melee and Brawl attributes. I'll start with Fthrow. For one, 70 BKB 45 KBG is INCREDIBLY broken in Smash 4. I know, as I have modded Marth myself and tested this. Marth can get Fthrow into tipper Fair near the ledge and KO at around 100%. This should not be allowed. Marth DOES need better throws, or better reward from them. 70 BKB with 70-75 KBG gives him follow ups up to around 65-70%. In terms of balance, this is a very fair option for both sides; Marth gets throw combos, but they are not overpowering.

Secondly, his other throws are absolutely fine. Up Throw's increased damage will make it KO earlier, which is un-needed. If anything, reverting his B/Dthrows to their Melee counterparts, would be more a nerf than anything, and nerfs are exactly what Marth DOESN'T need. Back Throw is better at positioning and getting opponents off stage, and Down Throw can combo better now. Reverting them to Melee throws will make them worse in these two areas. If anything, decreasing the BKB and increasing the KBG of Down Throw, both by 5 points each, would make the sub par Down Throw a little better at low percents, while still making it poor past there.

Now on to aerials. The landing lag suggested is ridiculous, and so are the AC frames. In comparison to the rest of the cast, these would give Marth unparalleled aerial prowess. People really need to get out of the mindset that for Marth to be good, he needs Double Fair. He does not. What Marth needs is to be able to just approach with Fair. Giving it OP AC Frames, FAF, and Landing Lag is not what it needs. If anything, it does need better AC frames, but not drastic ones, something fair (no pun intended). The rest of the aerial stuff is mostly unneeded. I will tap into this in my final explanation.

• Attributes:
  • Weight Decreased: 90 => 84
    
  • Falling Speed Increased: 1.58 => 1.8
  • Fast-Falling Speed Increased: 2.528 => 2.8
  • Gravity: 0.085 => 0.075
• Aerials:
  • Forward Aerial [Marth Only]:
    • Start-Up Decreased: 6-8 => 5-7
    • Base Knockback Changed: 40 => 20/24/30 [From Base to Tip]
    • Knockback Growth Changed: 80/80/90 => 70
  • Forward Aerial [Both]:
    • Angle Changed: 361 => 80
  • Down Aerial:
    • Start-Up Decreased: 9-13 => 8-12
    • FAF Increased: 60 Frames => 70 Frames
    • [Lucina Specific] Meteor Hitboxes extend half-way to the blade.
    • [Marth Specific] Meteor Hitbox Size Increase by 2 Units

Things here become even more drastic and unneeded. I will re-iterate a point: WE DO NOT NEED MELEE MARTH. Marth is already fine as he is in terms of weights and aerial movement. The only real thing Marth could benefit from is an increased run speed to allow him to surpass Bowser. You might think this is contradictory to what I said earlier, but I know Marth mains (go to the Marth boards if you don't believe me) all want him to at least outpace Bowser. It's not needed drastically, but it's the only change to attributes that should be considered changing. Fair's start up is a lot more balanced this time around. If anything, it could do with an extra active frame at the end, that's all. It's start up is fine, and does not need decreasing. I can see the other changes gear it to become a combo oriented move. This is also generally uneeded. The weakened power of the sourspots allow it to combo into itself even in this angle. What's more, the angle it has now allows the tip to KO. It's one of Marth's most threatening aerials. Changing it's angle would be more a detriment that a help.

The only real change down air needs is for the spike window to be a bit larger, but even that is an incredibly minor change, and it wouldn't hurt if Marth never got it. Basically, frame 11 is the spike hitbox, and the problem with this is that the frame 10 hitbox can sometimes hit the opponent before the frame 11 hitbox, screwing up the spike. This could be remedied by making frame 10 spike as well, albeit with weaker power. This would still make landing the frame 11 hitbox more rewarding, but make it less punishing when missed. Speaking of punishing, it's already very risky to use off stage anyway, and can be punished easily, so it does not need more endlag...

---

Once again, I appreciate you both bringing Marth up, for discussion points. However, I want to remind you that this is a balance patch, not a give this character the most overpowering things I can think of, or give them drastic changes.


To finish, let me give you an example of what Smash 4 Marth actually needs, along with fair explanations for them.

• Forward Air:
  • Extra frame added (6-8 -> 6-9). This matches past games and allows the hitboxes to match most of the sword trail.
  • AC Frames changed to be able to AC easier (>36 to >32). This change makes Forward Air a bit better approach option, combo option, and safety option. The AC frames I suggested are the same as what Back Air has, which is currently fine.
  • Landing Lag decreased slightly (16 frames -> 14 frames). 16 frames is quite a bit much. While it's workable, it's still very poor. This change makes a whiffed Forward Air slightly less open for punishment, while still leaving a window for punishment, and as such, plays into Marth's playstyle of correct spacing = reward.
• Up Air:
  • Extra frame added (5-9 -> 5-10 at least). The back half of Up Air has a huge blind spot due to the reduced active frames, meaning that while it should be able to hit grounded opponents, it is incredibly hard to. Roy's has the appropriate active frames (if not a few too many), Marth's does not.
  • AC Frames changed to be able to AC easier (>38 to >36). This allows you more leniency in using it rising, while still keeping it's options very strict and limited. I will mention that reducing it's landing lag by 1 frame to 13 frames would also be nice, but it's not as needed as the others.
• Neutral Air:
  • AC Frames changed to be able to AC in a short hop (>47 -> >40). This move not being able to AC in a short hop is a sin. It was not broken before, so why was it changed? It shouldn't AC in a SHFF like it used to, as that was a little oppressive. However, it should get...
  • Decreased Landing Lag (12 frames -> 11 frames). This makes it the same as Roy's landing lag, and would make Neutral air a tad bit more useful and safer, while still not being oppressive or OP as it would be if it AC'd in a SHFF.
• Forward Throw:
  • Knockback changed (From 100 BKB/50 KBG -> 70 BKB/ 75 KBG). I mentioned this above, but this gives it combos at low to mid percents, but keeps it from being too strong like it was in Brawl (where it had just 45 KBG).
• Pummel:
  • Damage increased slightly (2% to 2.5%). Marth's throws are incredibly weak in damage, so compensating this with a couple of pummels dealing 1% more damage would mitigate the throws poor damage.
• Shield Breaker:
  • Shield damage increased slightly (25 -> 27). The decrease in 1.1.0 (?) was too much, and even partially charged Shield Breaker doesn't do enough now. 2 more shield damage is minor enough to not make it as strong as vanilla Smash 4, but make it noticeable enough uncharged to be actually worth using once more.
• Counter:
  • COUNTER QUOTES PLEASE! BIGGEST BALANCE CHANGE!

So this it is; this is all Marth NEEDS to become balanced. He would benefit further from minor things such as increased run speed, perhaps a better Down Air spike timing, or 1% more on Dolphin Slash for example, but they don't address his biggest problems. These, do, and they are all he needs.

Naturally, Lucina should also get these changes, apart from the Shield Breaker one (her's is already much better than Marth's), and the Counter quotes one (she already uses hers. rip...).

 

[JWai]

I'm sorry, but no. No, no, no, no, no! Some of these Marth suggestions are very, VERY poor. I get that these are ambitious ideas, but some of these changes are incredibly drastic, not what Marth specifically needs, or are pointless. Take it from a Marth main; most things he needs are incredibly minor. Some of these things are quite simply, ridiculous. Let me point each of you out and explain why Marth doesn't need these things, and explain what he does actually need.


I can tell from years of Marth experience, that what is suggested for the aerials, is literally just combination of all the strong points of Marth's Melee and Brawl attributes. I'll start with Fthrow. For one, 70 BKB 45 KBG is INCREDIBLY broken in Smash 4. I know, as I have modded Marth myself and tested this. Marth can get Fthrow into tipper Fair near the ledge and KO at around 100%. This should not be allowed. Marth DOES need better throws, or better reward from them. 70 BKB with 70-75 KBG gives him follow ups up to around 65-70%. In terms of balance, this is a very fair option for both sides; Marth gets throw combos, but they are not overpowering.

Secondly, his other throws are absolutely fine. Up Throw's increased damage will make it KO earlier, which is un-needed. If anything, reverting his B/Dthrows to their Melee counterparts, would be more a nerf than anything, and nerfs are exactly what Marth DOESN'T need. Back Throw is better at positioning and getting opponents off stage, and Down Throw can combo better now. Reverting them to Melee throws will make them worse in these two areas. If anything, decreasing the BKB and increasing the KBG of Down Throw, both by 5 points each, would make the sub par Down Throw a little better at low percents, while still making it poor past there.

Now on to aerials. The landing lag suggested is ridiculous, and so are the AC frames. In comparison to the rest of the cast, these would give Marth unparalleled aerial prowess. People really need to get out of the mindset that for Marth to be good, he needs Double Fair. He does not. What Marth needs is to be able to just approach with Fair. Giving it OP AC Frames, FAF, and Landing Lag is not what it needs. If anything, it does need better AC frames, but not drastic ones, something fair (no pun intended). The rest of the aerial stuff is mostly unneeded. I will tap into this in my final explanation.



Things here become even more drastic and unneeded. I will re-iterate a point: WE DO NOT NEED MELEE MARTH. Marth is already fine as he is in terms of weights and aerial movement. The only real thing Marth could benefit from is an increased run speed to allow him to surpass Bowser. You might think this is contradictory to what I said earlier, but I know Marth mains (go to the Marth boards if you don't believe me) all want him to at least outpace Bowser. It's not needed drastically, but it's the only change to attributes that should be considered changing. Fair's start up is a lot more balanced this time around. If anything, it could do with an extra active frame at the end, that's all. It's start up is fine, and does not need decreasing. I can see the other changes gear it to become a combo oriented move. This is also generally uneeded. The weakened power of the sourspots allow it to combo into itself even in this angle. What's more, the angle it has now allows the tip to KO. It's one of Marth's most threatening aerials. Changing it's angle would be more a detriment that a help.

The only real change down air needs is for the spike window to be a bit larger, but even that is an incredibly minor change, and it wouldn't hurt if Marth never got it. Basically, frame 11 is the spike hitbox, and the problem with this is that the frame 10 hitbox can sometimes hit the opponent before the frame 11 hitbox, screwing up the spike. This could be remedied by making frame 10 spike as well, albeit with weaker power. This would still make landing the frame 11 hitbox more rewarding, but make it less punishing when missed. Speaking of punishing, it's already very risky to use off stage anyway, and can be punished easily, so it does not need more endlag...

---

Once again, I appreciate you both bringing Marth up, for discussion points. However, I want to remind you that this is a balance patch, not a give this character the most overpowering things I can think of, or give them drastic changes.


To finish, let me give you an example of what Smash 4 Marth actually needs, along with fair explanations for them.

• Forward Air:
  • Extra frame added (6-8 -> 6-9). This matches past games and allows the hitboxes to match most of the sword trail.
  • AC Frames changed to be able to AC easier (>36 to >32). This change makes Forward Air a bit better approach option, combo option, and safety option. The AC frames I suggested are the same as what Back Air has, which is currently fine.
  • Landing Lag decreased slightly (16 frames -> 14 frames). 16 frames is quite a bit much. While it's workable, it's still very poor. This change makes a whiffed Forward Air slightly less open for punishment, while still leaving a window for punishment, and as such, plays into Marth's playstyle of correct spacing = reward.
• Up Air:
  • Extra frame added (5-9 -> 5-10 at least). The back half of Up Air has a huge blind spot due to the reduced active frames, meaning that while it should be able to hit grounded opponents, it is incredibly hard to. Roy's has the appropriate active frames (if not a few too many), Marth's does not.
  • AC Frames changed to be able to AC easier (>38 to >36). This allows you more leniency in using it rising, while still keeping it's options very strict and limited. I will mention that reducing it's landing lag by 1 frame to 13 frames would also be nice, but it's not as needed as the others.
• Neutral Air:
  • AC Frames changed to be able to AC in a short hop (>47 -> >40). This move not being able to AC in a short hop is a sin. It was not broken before, so why was it changed? It shouldn't AC in a SHFF like it used to, as that was a little oppressive. However, it should get...
  • Decreased Landing Lag (12 frames -> 11 frames). This makes it the same as Roy's landing lag, and would make Neutral air a tad bit more useful and safer, while still not being oppressive or OP as it would be if it AC'd in a SHFF.
• Forward Throw:
  • Knockback changed (From 100 BKB/50 KBG -> 70 BKB/ 75 KBG). I mentioned this above, but this gives it combos at low to mid percents, but keeps it from being too strong like it was in Brawl (where it had just 45 KBG).
• Pummel:
  • Damage increased slightly (2% to 2.5%). Marth's throws are incredibly weak in damage, so compensating this with a couple of pummels dealing 1% more damage would mitigate the throws poor damage.
• Shield Breaker:
  • Shield damage increased slightly (25 -> 27). The decrease in 1.1.0 (?) was too much, and even partially charged Shield Breaker doesn't do enough now. 2 more shield damage is minor enough to not make it as strong as vanilla Smash 4, but make it noticeable enough uncharged to be actually worth using once more.
• Counter:
  • COUNTER QUOTES PLEASE! BIGGEST BALANCE CHANGE!

So this it is; this is all Marth NEEDS to become balanced. He would benefit further from minor things such as increased run speed, perhaps a better Down Air spike timing, or 1% more on Dolphin Slash for example, but they don't address his biggest problems. These, do, and they are all he needs.

Naturally, Lucina should also get these changes, apart from the Shield Breaker one (her's is already much better than Marth's), and the Counter quotes one (she already uses hers. rip...).

The changes were made to Marth because I'm also a Marth/Lucina main (former Marth/Lucina main), and my experiences with the character in previous games is that he's a character that thrives in the air. Sm4sh Marth/Lucina don't have that feeling. Their aerials feel laggy, their throws are terrible, and they're too centralized on spacing, which messes them up compared to the top and high tiered cast. My idea for the Marth/Lucina changes was to give them a better, stronger aerial game, a real grab game, and make Shieldbreaker better at it's job (as well as give Lucina a way to actually take stocks as early as Marth, Ike, and Roy).

The fair buffs were done because being a fast, quick, long range attack makes it a great all purpose move. Two fairs in a short hop were not my goal. 14 frames of LL is still too much. A better amount would be 10-12 frames if 9 is too much. The AC frames are from Brawl were chosen because of the air game focused aspect I think Marth should have. Also, Sm4sh's AC frames suck ass in general, so there's that.

Uair was changed to make it better for starting combos when SHFF'd, as the reduced landing lag lets Marth/Lucina act faster and get the followup. Again, AC frames changed because Sm4sh's suck.

Marth/Lucina's current dair is terrible. It's uses are situational at best. The changes are made so it's a more consistent move, and also has the benefit of strengthening Marth/Lucina's edgeguarding by giving them a reliable meteor smash. To make it less OP though, only the first few frames of tippered dair meteor smashes. The back hit simply deals moderate knockback.

Fthrow was reverted to Brawl fthrow so Marth would have a real combo throw. While I can understand changing it so Marth can't combo with it past 65%-70%, I say it should become a 50/50 at high percents rather than neutering any KO confirms it has.

Uthrow has a 1% increase so it KO's a bit earlier and so it can KO super-heavyweights much better (DDD doesn't die until past 200%, that's not right). The pummel damage increase though is a good idea that can substitute that. Or instead uthrow can have a damage increase but compensated knockback?

Dthrow is pretty ass right now actually. The Brawl dthrow allowed Marth to tech chase, which is the only reason I'm changing it. The dthrow>uair/bair isn't that big a deal imo, since it doesn't kill at all with Lucina and it isn't a guaranteed KO setup, so instead of having an awkward dthrow with virtual no followup, instead give it a tech chase use.

Don't know what you meant about bthrow, never mentioned it in my initial post. The current one is fine.

Shieldbreaker just needs to be more potent uncharged. 27 shield damage is fine. Lucina's increased base KB on her Shieldbreaker is so that it kills roughly around 40% rather than 60% from the center of the stage.

As for Radical Larry's changes, those are way too radical.

 

[Derpnaster]

So this is the point where someone who Doesn't main/care about the character can throw in their opinion right?

OK.

As I said before, We shouldn't be using/glorifying Melee for this patch. they are two totally different game with two totally different playstyles. Enough said about that.

What comes up here is where my experience as a Link/Graninja main only applies because of fighting against Marth/Lucina.

Firstly, yes, both could afford to be just a little faster on thr ground, Lucina more than marth but that's more personal opinion. Yes they do need a little more reward off of throws, but just reverting them back to the ones Marth had in his "Glory Days" will not work, it's too dramatic of a change and it could force a change in playstyle from "I need to keep my spacig correct at all times or I get punished hard" to , 'I need to rush in and strat throw combing that other guy to hell and back', which is in turn not really healthy for the character. Right now I firght a lot of defensive/patient Marth's. They like to keep up the neutral for as long as possible but when an opening present's iitself they can get in and make it hurt.

On Individual moves, I am not a fan of General Purpose moves, I think it focues the meta of that charcter too much around one thing and in the long run hurts that character, it's just better for a character to have more use in different moves, and Honestly neutral grouned and aerial moves should be the closest we ever come to general moves because they serve as foundational moves for everything else.

TL,DR. We don't need to revert Marth to any previus state in any game, and we really shound't force reliance on one or two moves or combos because it will hurt character development in the long run.

 

[ZeusLink]

I'll agree, since all Marth was getting this whole time during patches was buffs. If anything, I don't remember a single, solitary FE character(besides Corrin) getting overall nerfs throughout patches. Sympathy was a thing that time.

And as Derp said(or close to it), Melee/Brawl Marth isn't what we should change him into. That would be like making Falco having a frame 5 Dair, or Fox with an interrupting, frame 2 shine.

 

[PavakaSword]

My thoughts on the Marth buff discussed would have him see no changes to landing lag but keep the better auto cancel frames, everything else is fine to keep the same as smash 4 intended. If anything Roy should have the low landing lag of 9 frames while Marth has the auto cancel frames. Reward a good Marth player for doing correct auto cancels while punishing them for getting overly reliant on the option of forward air as 16 frames of ending lag is punishable unless spaced, but if you're dropping down and attempting to hit your opponent whilst the landing lag happens you probably didn't intend for only the tip to hit. There's no reason why Roy should feel any less safe attempting to attack the opponent close up as that's his job, make him better at it with less landing lag. Maybe a few FAF for other things and down tilt that goes up only if he hits the base of the move.
Speaking of down tilts 20 FAF please for both emblem lords

I'd keep the 25, 27, 27 and 48 for the nair, fair, up air and down air respectively as it helps Marth but doesn't make him op as he used to as he still has the landing lag to worry about and whether or not if it's safe to throw out an aerial with landing lag waiting to happen and rewarding those who auto cancel just right
I'd also keep spike box for down air at the tip, it's very much more consistent and air dodging exists anyway so it's not the best option to begin with. Make it more reliable though

Spacing is already an endeavor for Marth, make it slightly more appealing by rewarding perfection that has a nice window of tolerance for the auto cancel

Although no one wants to see the double fair too much I'd like to see it back with 34 FAF but Marth doesn't truly need it and if everything else I mentioned gets changed I can live without it
16 frames landing lag though just in case anyone wants to argue that it would completely shut down any approach

 

[Bowserboy3]

The changes were made to Marth because I'm also a Marth/Lucina main (former Marth/Lucina main), and my experiences with the character in previous games is that he's a character that thrives in the air. Sm4sh Marth/Lucina don't have that feeling. Their aerials feel laggy, their throws are terrible, and they're too centralized on spacing, which messes them up compared to the top and high tiered cast. My idea for the Marth/Lucina changes was to give them a better, stronger aerial game, a real grab game, and make Shieldbreaker better at it's job (as well as give Lucina a way to actually take stocks as early as Marth, Ike, and Roy).

The fair buffs were done because being a fast, quick, long range attack makes it a great all purpose move. Two fairs in a short hop were not my goal. 14 frames of LL is still too much. A better amount would be 10-12 frames if 9 is too much. The AC frames are from Brawl were chosen because of the air game focused aspect I think Marth should have. Also, Sm4sh's AC frames suck *** in general, so there's that.

Uair was changed to make it better for starting combos when SHFF'd, as the reduced landing lag lets Marth/Lucina act faster and get the followup. Again, AC frames changed because Sm4sh's suck.

Marth/Lucina's current dair is terrible. It's uses are situational at best. The changes are made so it's a more consistent move, and also has the benefit of strengthening Marth/Lucina's edgeguarding by giving them a reliable meteor smash. To make it less OP though, only the first few frames of tippered dair meteor smashes. The back hit simply deals moderate knockback.

Fthrow was reverted to Brawl fthrow so Marth would have a real combo throw. While I can understand changing it so Marth can't combo with it past 65%-70%, I say it should become a 50/50 at high percents rather than neutering any KO confirms it has.

Uthrow has a 1% increase so it KO's a bit earlier and so it can KO super-heavyweights much better (DDD doesn't die until past 200%, that's not right). The pummel damage increase though is a good idea that can substitute that. Or instead uthrow can have a damage increase but compensated knockback?

Dthrow is pretty *** right now actually. The Brawl dthrow allowed Marth to tech chase, which is the only reason I'm changing it. The dthrow>uair/bair isn't that big a deal imo, since it doesn't kill at all with Lucina and it isn't a guaranteed KO setup, so instead of having an awkward dthrow with virtual no followup, instead give it a tech chase use.

Don't know what you meant about bthrow, never mentioned it in my initial post. The current one is fine.

Shieldbreaker just needs to be more potent uncharged. 27 shield damage is fine. Lucina's increased base KB on her Shieldbreaker is so that it kills roughly around 40% rather than 60% from the center of the stage.

My main point was, that while you were spot on with what moves need changes, they are far too good changes, or too drastic changes that will change the way Marth is played.

As many others (and myself) have mentioned, we can't just glorify characters into their Melee or Brawl states. Sure, it's good to take inspiration from those good points, but make them fairer. This is something I did in my own post (such as giving Marth a combo throw, but not one that works up until well into the 100% range).

I am very passionate about Marth, and any of my friends on here will tell you that. However, while I want to see Marth become a better character, I am strongly against giving him all these mad overpowering buffs/traits from past games. I honestly feel what I suggested are fair and meaningful buffs that will help Marth, but at the same time are not oppressive and what made him the top tier threat in both past games.

If you feel I am wrong, tell me.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well Bowserboy3 you are not truly wrong, yet you are misunderstanding it. The only thing I suggested were two aerial changes and a couple attribute changes overall. There were no other changes to make Marth fully like Melee Marth, just a change to give Marth an aerial combo game, something he somewhat is lacking in.

If Marth and Lucina have the changes I suggested, it still wouldn't make them like Melee Marth in the slightest, all due to the fact that there are other things holding them back, including the lower gravity/weight, which would reduce survivability now, as well as some frame data that is not on-par with Marth from Melee. And do understand that my suggestion for tipper changes on Marth only come to D-Air, no other attack, which further means Marth won't exactly be Melee again, just that he would have a better aerial combo game at lower to medium damages.

Do you understand my version now?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well Bowserboy3 you are not truly wrong, yet you are misunderstanding it. The only thing I suggested were two aerial changes and a couple attribute changes overall. There were no other changes to make Marth fully like Melee Marth, just a change to give Marth an aerial combo game, something he somewhat is lacking in.

If Marth and Lucina have the changes I suggested, it still wouldn't make them like Melee Marth in the slightest, all due to the fact that there are other things holding them back, including the lower gravity/weight, which would reduce survivability now, as well as some frame data that is not on-par with Marth from Melee. And do understand that my suggestion for tipper changes on Marth only come to D-Air, no other attack, which further means Marth won't exactly be Melee again, just that he would have a better aerial combo game at lower to medium damages.

Do you understand my version now?

I do understand it. However, what you said about Fair is almost essentially Melee Fair (Melee angle was 70°, you suggested 80°), which is why I took interest in that. He doesn't really need a super combo game, because that's not how Marth should be played. He has combos now, and even just making his throws better like I suggested will help remedy this anyway. Fair is fine as it is right now anyway.

As regards to Dair, like I mentioned in my own post, while Dair could do with a change, it's not a vital change that holds Marth back. It would be beneficial, but it's not important, like, you know, getting safety through better AC frames for example. That's why I think we should not be focusing on these minor things, but more on what he needs.

---

This it to anyone; There is a fine line between buffing your favourite characters to be actually viable and strong, and unneedingly adding buffs because you want them to be good. You've got to realise that what you think might be good, is not, because bias will probably be pushing you. I am trying to stay fair with my suggestions to Marth, and I think if anybody here is considering adding things for their mains too, they should take a leaf out of my book.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'll agree, since all Marth was getting this whole time during patches was buffs. If anything, I don't remember a single, solitary FE character(besides Corrin) getting overall nerfs throughout patches. Sympathy was a thing that time.

And as Derp said(or close to it), Melee/Brawl Marth isn't what we should change him into. That would be like making Falco having a frame 5 Dair, or Fox with an interrupting, frame 2 shine.

Actually, that frame 5 down air sounds kinda nice now...

 

[JWai]

Sheesh, I get it already, nobody wants Marth to be Brawl Marth, don't need everyone jumping on me about it. I just wanted to share what I felt would make Marth able to compete better with the high and top tiers as well as keep him enjoyable to play, but whatever, I can just play fun Marth in PM and Brawl.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sheesh, I get it already, nobody wants Marth to be Brawl Marth, don't need everyone jumping on me about it. I just wanted to share what I felt would make Marth able to compete better with the high and top tiers as well as keep him enjoyable to play, but whatever, I can just play fun Marth in PM and Brawl.

I don't think everybody is jumping on you, so to speak. As I said in my first post, I love Marth discussion. But there are indeed ways of making a character strong without "overbuffing" for example. Heck, look at Mewtwo.

And trust me, Marth with the buffs I suggested, is fun to play, while still true to his base design of spacing = reward.

 

[JWai]

I don't think everybody is jumping on you, so to speak. As I said in my first post, I love Marth discussion. But there are indeed ways of making a character strong without "overbuffing" for example. Heck, look at Mewtwo.

And trust me, Marth with the buffs I suggested, is fun to play, while still true to his base design of spacing = reward.

I just think Marth and Lucina need to be less reliant on spacing though. Their design in Sm4sh is too centralized on Marth getting tippers, and I was thinking that buffing their grab game and giving them an all purpose move would help, but unfortunately the majority of posts that came after mine basically said in the nicest way possible that my ideas suck. Marth and Lucina are fun to play in Sm4sh (otherwise I wouldn't have mained them at one point) but that spacing over-reliance with a poor CQC game was part of my decision to main Corrin instead. Oh well, I'll just leave the Marcina stuff to you guys. I'll just focus on Robin instead.

 

[MarioMeteor]

While we're on the subject of former high tiers that Smash 4 destroyed: Falco!

Running speed increased - 1.472 -> 1.52.

Down air active frames - 16-19 (clean), 20-30 (late) -> 12-15 (clean), 16-26 (late). KBG increased - 80 (clean) -> 100 (clean).
Down throw KBG decreased - 110 -> 90.

Blaster FAF - frame 59 (grounded), frame 50 (aerial) -> frame 50 (grounded), frame 41 (aerial).

I just think Marth and Lucina need to be less reliant on spacing though. Their design in Sm4sh is too centralized on Marth getting tippers, and I was thinking that buffing their grab game and giving them an all purpose move would help, but unfortunately the majority of posts that came after mine basically said in the nicest way possible that my ideas suck. Marth and Lucina are fun to play in Sm4sh (otherwise I wouldn't have mained them at one point) but that spacing over-reliance with a poor CQC game was part of my decision to main Corrin instead. Oh well, I'll just leave the Marcina stuff to you guys. I'll just focus on Robin instead.

I thought your ideas for what to change were good, it was how to change them that was a bit ridic.

 

[ZeusLink]

Revive the eagle!

 

[Derpnaster]

I agree that the Chicken needs some buffs. maybe add some autocancel frames to his Dair, since he really can't pull a pillar I don't see why having a drill that can pressure shields is a bad thing.

I think the challange with Falco, and any former High/Top Tier character is going to be the desire to make them nuts again like they were when they were 'good', truth is no one in Smash 4 is truly 'bad', it's just that some require a little more work and dedication than others to win. It's our job to reward those players for their hard work without them having to put even more work in to relearn a character they love.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Actually, Falco is a pheasant...