Sliq's Back and Wants to Talk About Stuff

[Sliq]

I'm "back" everybody, bang a gong. And by back, I mean I'm interning so I have "free time" again! I just got off of a 3 month school project tantamount to being imprisoned and forced to sing show tunes for the inmates.

As it turns out I'm bad with every character that isn't Bowser, so I'll be playing a ****load more Bowser.

Anyways, I'm here to find out what I missed, and also to comment on some stuff I figured out at a tournament I went to recently.

Using klaw as a mindgame is *****ing, and by that I mean SH empty klaw to f-tilt, dash grab, fair, jab, etc. It work really well because people expect lag, and then you punch them in the face. There are some matches that just got put up recently where I show this off. Basically, just klaw a **** load, it's a great move and nigh unpunishable if done as you land.

Bowser's f smash is a pretty safe move if you hit their shield under a few conditions. The f smash will push a lot of people too far away to retaliate with with shield dropped smash attacks or tilts, forcing your opponent to dash up smash, dash grab, or dash attack to adequately punish it. This could be something worth testing, because if the f smash is only punishable by dash techniques, then f smash can be more "liberally" applied to Bowser's game.

Fortress is amazing and also should be spammed, especially if you ledge cancel it. It's just like Ike's jabs in the sense that after a while you just go so pissed off that all they do is the same **** over and over that you want to smash their face into the TV. Frustrate the **** out of your opponent by just hitting him with it over and over again.

People should really abuse the Bomb more. It is a ridiculously good KO move. You only need to recognize when it can be used, and wait for an opportunity to use it. Instead of grabbing someone on landing from an air dodge, down B. Hit them with both hits and make them look silly. It's also amazing for people that like to play ledge games. It is risky, to some extent, but if you plan ahead and no how the ledge works for your opponents character, you can end up ledge bombing the **** out of them. Just make sure that they are under 100%, otherwise if they roll from the ledge, you might not grab it as you fly by.

I've been spamming up throw a lot more recently, as it leads nicely into up air and bair, 2 strong KO moves. Most people will air dodge out of it, meaning a free hit, and others will double jump out of it, meaning free hit, and some will double jump the air dodge, which means free hit and no recovery. If your opponent tends to try to attack out of it, out space him with a bair or fair and leave him hurt. Bowser's up throw is like Melee Fox's up throw, but not guaranteed.

If I had homework to give to the Bowser boards, it would be to check the extent Bowser gets punished when an opponent shields an f-smash, because I doubt GW's can do anything better than dash grab or dash fair, which means GW's gonna die at 100%.

UPDATE: Mr. Eh will buy you for a dolla.

 

[thexsunrosered]

you're ganon stuff is still so pro though

 

[Kirk]

Looove Fsmash...

From what I remember, I get punished on block about half the time. More so if I'm fighting Snake. :o

 

[Sliq]

Looove Fsmash...

From what I remember, I get punished on block about half the time. More so if I'm fighting Snake. :o

Snake can punish anything on his shield just because his tilts are so stupid. Against Snake, you should be spamming over b and up b anyways, not to mention firebreath (stops nades, Snake has no aerial game). I would only recommend using it in bursts unless they are off the stage, or they will DI into you and bair you.

Up throw to up air is your best KO option, as Snake doesn't get grab released into anything worthwhile IIRC.

Ike seems to had problems punishing f smash, and I would imagine GW's would too.

 

[Flayl]

Ike can Dash attack Bowser. Not that I think Using FSmash frequently is a good idea, it's much more useful as a mindgame kill, thanks ot the drawback animation.

 

[Cassius.]

Against GW's BAir you should just use FTilt, it trades hits with it...I'm not really that fond of FSmash anymore anyway lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

I should point out, F-smash is powershieldable on reaction regardless of how long it is charged. I've tested it a fair bit, and the charge release of this attack kinda sucks especially since Bowser telegraphs it with that grunt as he swings forward.

Against someone who knows how to react against it, it's really not that good on shields.

 

[Sliq]

Ike can Dash attack Bowser. Not that I think Using FSmash frequently is a good idea, it's much more useful as a mindgame kill, thanks ot the drawback animation.

Right, dash attack does land, as it does with most punishments of the f smash, but few dash attacks are strong enough to kill. Basically, if the risk of being punished is less than the reward of dealing 34% and potentially KO'ing your opponent at low percent, I don't see why taking a few dash attacks or throws isn't worth KO'ing Ike at 100% (before the hit).

That's basically what I'm getting at with this. I'm starting to believe that the f smash is less risky than people think, as long as you don't telegraph it. It's already telegraphed enough. Plus the reward is outstanding in both KO potential and damage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-smashing while people approach with various randomly thrown attacks is obviously good.

You can beat Marth's Dancing Blade with F-smash. That move lasts a long time, and if he poorly spaces it, free hit. Ninjalink does that quite a bit in one of his Bowser matches vs NEO I think. Only actually, he doesn't land both hits, so he does more like 20% rather than 34%.

If you're spacing it such that you're dealing 34%, your opponent is probably going to be closer to you in general just because the first hit happens kinda close to Bowser.

 

[Sliq]

F-smashing while people approach with various randomly thrown attacks is obviously good.

You can beat Marth's Dancing Blade with F-smash. That move lasts a long time, and if he poorly spaces it, free hit. Ninjalink does that quite a bit in one of his Bowser matches vs NEO I think. Only actually, he doesn't land both hits, so he does more like 20% rather than 34%.

If you're spacing it such that you're dealing 34%, your opponent is probably going to be closer to you in general just because the first hit happens kinda close to Bowser.

They don't have to be "close", they just have to be closer. Regardless, the damage is good and so is the knockback. Plus they might get discouraged when they keep getting hit by "moves no one should land." I know anytime I get hit with an Ike f smash I'm always like, mother ****er.

 

[EnragedMathlete]

welcome back ^_^

You should check the bowser chat. A good amount of the bowser board seems to be on there every night.

We all should start klawing more... It's so good. Aerial klaw to ground klaw/ftilt is legit. I'm not sure about grabbing right afterwards b00zer might be too slow for that...

Fortress is great but I feel like it shouldn't be spammed. If you can land a grab/klaw then do that instead of fortress since you will probably rack up more damage. Fortess should be a last resort kind of punish.

Bombing is so good near the ledge. Even if you don't ledge cancel it (i.e because they are over 100%) if you read a jump from the ledge onto the stage you can get a kill very easily. If you read wrong, you'll probably eat a get up attack off the ledge but that's not too bad.

Fmash is legit. It's incredible for punishing if you know they're going to spot dodge. I think the safest place to use it would be near the ledge (i.e. for hitting people who are on the ledge too long or are trying to stall, forcing them off the ledge if they shield it, etc).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fmash is legit. It's incredible for punishing if you know they're going to spot dodge. I think the safest place to use it would be near the ledge (i.e. for hitting people who are on the ledge too long or are trying to stall, forcing them off the ledge if they shield it, etc).

I'm just going to point out, there isn't much point for anyone to be spotdodging against Bowser anyway in high level play.

If there is anything Bowser just happens to be naturally good at, it's punishing spotdodges. F-smash isn't his best option for punishing those anyhow. Klawhopping in general is **** against anyone who spotdodges, not to mention D-smash, firebreath, Fortress, etc....

 

[Sliq]

I figured out how to DI out of the tornado.

SamuraiPanda told me what Ally told him, and it works! It's actually pretty silly. What you do when you are getting tornado's is mash everything. That's it. Seriously.

You don't need to try to smash DI out of it. I would hold up and away on the control stick, and then wail on the face of the controller, hitting all of the face buttons as well as wiggling the hell out of the c stick.

I managed to continuously pop out of the tornado before the last hit, even when the MK was mashing b as fast as they could.

So, look into this. See how mashing random buttons helps you get out of the tornado. It helped me where smash DI has failed me in the past. I had assumed the tornado was inescapable as Bowser, and then I find this out. TEST THIS TO CONFIRM IT.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can semi-confirm it though I don't think it happened by "randomly mashing buttons". I DIed out of the Tornado so many times I don't even care about that move anymore. The thing with the Tornado is that it has basically 2 phases: the starting phase and the rest of the animation.

Starting phase is what makes Tornado an overrated move (imo) because you can beat it with almost any move you like...jab, fire breath, grab. What's more important though is the STARTUP ANIMATION of the Tornado. MK makes a very unique and significant movement that's basically screaming "hey guys imma use the nado now". If you get a feel for its timing and can react fast enough you can escape grounded tornado's 100% of the time. The tornado has so little hitstun in its starting phase that you only need to flick your control stick up ONCE to get out of it. Then you can do whatever to punish it because you're EXACTLY above the weak spot of the tornado (idk which of Bowsers moves work in that situation...with Snake I use ffbair, with Wolf Shine/Nair and with Lucario dair...just try it out).

I will try to do that "button mash" thing though. Could be useful if it works because aerial tornados are somewhat difficult and you can't SDI upwards in its beginning phase ...

Claw -> fsmash is legit to **** grabwhores. Just claw to bait a grab and then fsmash them.
Dtilt on the edge beats Drill Rush....use it to surprise MKs.
Aerial Claw -> jab1 -> Claw is also legit (1st claw misses, jab1 hits shield, 2nd claw connects)

 

[MrEh]

What you do when you are getting tornado's is mash everything. That's it. Seriously.

Best advice ever.

I'm gonna be doing this now, even if it looks hilarious. lol

 

[EnragedMathlete]

I'm just going to point out, there isn't much point for anyone to be spotdodging against Bowser anyway in high level play.

If there is anything Bowser just happens to be naturally good at, it's punishing spotdodges. F-smash isn't his best option for punishing those anyhow. Klawhopping in general is **** against anyone who spotdodges, not to mention D-smash, firebreath, Fortress, etc....

You can punish spot dodges with all of those methods, but klawhopping will not kill for a long time because it will probably be stale (same with fortress). I'm sure there are some matchups at a high level of play where spot dodging against a bowser is not a bad option (vs falco/ness/lucas or anyone else who can be cg'd maybe).

How is the smash scene at ucsc? You should come visit us at UCB =D I know that UCB and UC davis have melee crew battles once in awhile but idk about the other UCs.

 

[B!squick]

Ugh, I'm playing too many games right now as it is, don't get me excited about Smash again, Sliq. x_x Really hope this works though.

 

[shinyspoon42]

If you try to F-smash someones shield, they can see the long *** head pullback, grunt, and then finally the attack itself. At what point would they think "oh hey, I should just shield this attack"? It wrecks their shield, and has high push back. But it is so easy to see the startup animation that they can spot dodge on reaction to it.

If you are going to abuse a move, make it fortress OOS. Anytime they even touch your shield, fortress. Dash at them and then fortress back. Drop through a platform then immediately fortress and catch them in the gazillion and one hits it has in the air.

Oh and Bowser boards need to learn to use Dair. It has a sick nasty landing hitbox, anyone want to try it?

 

[Sliq]

The idea is to f smash when you know they will have to shield it. Plus a spot dodge spammer gets wrecked anyways.

 

[Cassius.]

Most of the cast has a fast enough move to stop Bowser's FSmash as soon as they hear the "ROAR"...Assuming good people have decent reflexes, they could just press A or something and stop the FSmash. Then what? I mean it's a good idea but idk if you can really rely on someone "not expecting it" <.<

And DAir is pretty good but it's reward isn't really...that great.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Bowser's dair is not useful save for avoiding projectiles and taking over campers (only cancellable projectiles even). The reward for hitting a dair is not worth it at al.

Also, down b is not useful due to the fact a simple direction held on the control stick (left or right) will get them out of the second hit.

Fsmash..? Why? Ftilt.. It's much more safer, useful, and less punishable.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Even if it doesn't do a ton of damage, that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. It cancels projectiles, cancels momentum, and has a large landing hitbox that is invisible and most people aren't expecting it.

Down-b is very useful, but mostly over the ledge, because it is unsafe elsewhere.

Fsmash wrecks shields if they try to shield it, while having enough push on it for it to only be punished by DA or dash grab. Of course, people with good grab games lol at you if you do this. Also if they whiff an attack F smash is such a deadly form of punishment. Ftilt is faster, safer, and overall more useful. However if a situation arises where you can Fsmash, go for it because it will pay off if you succeed. Fsmash is high risk high reward, Ftilt is lower risk lower reward.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Even if it doesn't do a ton of damage, that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. It cancels projectiles, cancels momentum, and has a large landing hitbox that is invisible and most people aren't expecting it.

Down-b is very useful, but mostly over the ledge, because it is unsafe elsewhere.

Fsmash wrecks shields if they try to shield it, while having enough push on it for it to only be punished by DA or dash grab. Of course, people with good grab games lol at you if you do this. Also if they whiff an attack F smash is such a deadly form of punishment. Ftilt is faster, safer, and overall more useful. However if a situation arises where you can Fsmash, go for it because it will pay off if you succeed. Fsmash is high risk high reward, Ftilt is lower risk lower reward.

First of all, I said dair should be used vs. projectiles so that's null. It also sucks for momentum canceling, fair is better both vertically and horizontally. The landing hitbox is not very hard to see coming after one shielded dair.

If you have the opportunity to use dair, why not not just grab or klaw...? Dair does so much less than other options.

Down b is ONLY useful at the ledge due to the fact of DI. Otherwise on stage its terrible.

Also, who shields vs Bowser anyway? Shielding is bad enough since we have TWO grabs. The fsmash is extremely telegraphed anyway, so anyone can just IDA it to interrupt it. Also, obviously its good for punishing... That's just about all its good for.

 

[B!squick]

If FSmash had Super Armor like some other FSmashes, it would be so much more useful.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

First of all, I said dair should be used vs. projectiles so that's null. It also sucks for momentum canceling, fair is better both vertically and horizontally. The landing hitbox is not very hard to see coming after one shielded dair.

If you have the opportunity to use dair, why not not just grab or klaw...? Dair does so much less than other options.

Down b is ONLY useful at the ledge due to the fact of DI. Otherwise on stage its terrible.

Also, who shields vs Bowser anyway? Shielding is bad enough since we have TWO grabs. The fsmash is extremely telegraphed anyway, so anyone can just IDA it to interrupt it. Also, obviously its good for punishing... That's just about all its good for.

I disagree with your Dair statement. If you can land a Dair, the enemy is at low %, and you've already used k-claw, it is better to do so. The more inane moves you can actually land with, the faster you can recharge respectable moves (plus grab pummeling for maximum frustration). This isn't to say that the Dair isn't respectable, though. You mention that the landing hitbox is not very hard to see coming after one shielded dair, but you should never underestimate the power of habit. Many many many players will try to shield grab upon landing the Dair only to be knocked back by a wind effect. Other than that, though, I think everyone knows what's what with the Dair.
*Also, try using it against characters where you "feel" you'll be put at a favorable distance against if the wind effect knocks them back. Someone like Zelda. I've used this against a semi-competent Zelda, and I've gotten decent results most of the time...
*Did anyone here besides me read that "Optimal Boxing Range" thread? That thread should be the Bible for Bowser players, honestly.

Down B is also liable to catch players off guard unless you tend to use it after a jab or something (though I don't deny that it's easy to get out of). Also, I mentioned this before in another time and another thread, but Down B is "lol" on precision guarding Marths.

 

[B!squick]

I ledge cancel my DAirs 'cause it's cool. Other that I don't really use it. FSmash is epic if you read your opponent. I remember when I did some research on Wolf and found out about this "scar" thing where it seems like they teleport through the ledge. All I had to do was stand in the right spot and mash that C-Stick when they let go of the ledge. It was awesome. XD

I don't know why, but I land more FSmashes early in a game than I do later on, what's up with that? O.o

 

[Sliq]

I ledge cancel my DAirs 'cause it's cool. Other that I don't really use it. FSmash is epic if you read your opponent. I remember when I did some research on Wolf and found out about this "scar" thing where it seems like they teleport through the ledge. All I had to do was stand in the right spot and mash that C-Stick when they let go of the ledge. It was awesome. XD

I don't know why, but I land more FSmashes early in a game than I do later on, what's up with that? O.o

You play less risky as you have less stock, and therefor more potential to be saucy.

 

[B!squick]

XD I had to laugh when I finished reading that. Your use of the word saucy has brought me great joy. And being more saucy sounds like a good thing to me. I like sauce.

 

[Sliq]

So I figured I'd ask you guys, are there any "gay" stages Bowser can CP to and is good at? As far as I've come across, there aren't, really, albeit that just might be my inability to play ******** stages with a low tier.

 

[Flayl]

Brinstar is pretty good, IMO. Jungle Japes is awesome against people without projectiles.

And there's always the stages with temporary walk-offs and walls to abuse your chaingrab on.

 

[Lotopius]

Wasn't battlefield a huge rapefield for Bowser?

Has anyone tried a raising dair at the ledge on upbing opponent, followed by a fortress?
I don't have a wii so I can't test it out, but if it doesn't stagespike, it's like 27+ damage on any recovering opponent.

 

[Hobobloke]

Dair has 0 priority their upb will beat it.

 

[Flayl]

Wasn't battlefield a huge rapefield for Bowser?

He asked for "gay" stages.

 

[Sliq]

He asked for "gay" stages.

Well, they do say that "love is a battlefield," and that's pretty gay, so I might allow it.

 

[Kirk]

Don't know about being "gay," but I'm somewhat fond of Castle Siege.

1st part has a very small area with platforms...both a plus in my book. Just have to be careful of the edge lips.

2nd part has walk offs for grab shenanigans, statues for elongating hitboxes(<3 lingering Fsmash) and can avoid projectile spam somewhat, and plenty of platforms to abuse.

3rd is...neutralish lol. Klaw hop or something, idk. :o

 

[B!squick]

MrEh beats MKs on Luigi's Mansion. Something to think about. *nod nod*

 

[Beren Zaiga]

I feel like trying to mindgame my opponent into thinking I am a bad Bowser, then suddenly changing my strategy and kicking *** all over the place.

Me VS. Jo is a good example of getting lucky. My Bowser VS. His Marth. Tap B, SideStep ot Shield, then Jab or D-Smash out of Shield.

Thats not what I really did but it is useful.

 

[B!squick]

Yeah, sandbagging is awesome.

 

[MrEh]

MrEh beats MKs on Luigi's Mansion. Something to think about. *nod nod*

Well, maybe if the MK is terrible. lol

But seriously, I just like Mansion. It's like a troll city.

 

[MrEh]

I'll BUY YOU FOR A DOLLA!!!