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SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

Zucco

Smash Master
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Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii Zuccooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo mmwwhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :chuckle::chuckle:
this guy...................THIS GUUUUUY!!!!!!
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
 

HyperEnergy

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I'm gonna go with Fox on this one. He really is one annoying character and has a lousy up smash. =/

And actually, I'm surprised you didn't win that set Zucco. You dealt with his camping pretty **** well.
 

Zucco

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Rookie is mad legit. With better stage picking and I full night of sleep I MIGHT have won but honestly he's really good and I'm not ashamed of losing to him at all.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Reminds me of when our social thread was shot down by Gimpyfish. I made an AiB group about it lol, but they were debating of either just continuing on the boards, or letting it die by coming onto the AiB boards or the SWF Mewtwo boards lol.
btw, I have a link on my sig to one of the funniest flame wars made by Aurashade, who iirc was one of the "link defenders".
LOL, Aurashade. Nice Link defender we have there.

He shut it down coz you guys were talking about a flaming bus lol. The flame war Aurashade gave in that thread was also one of his last though.
gee, would Lucario save a flaming school bus full of kindergardeners? God I miss that thread.

~

If your cool, you'll vote for Link.
 

Rayku

Smash Lord
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I can give some decent advice on Sheik or Fox. I've never fought a Link before.

When you guys decide, someone IM/PM me and I'll contribute.
 

Browny

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I play against a pretty good fox main here at tourneys/friendlies :)

the original discussion vs fox was not very good imo. although I dont even remember there being a sheik one >_>
 

Aurasmash14

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we should do Fox next. or we can do multi chars again, that was a good experiment.

although we really owe the discussion to rockettrainer :D .

On the other hand, for total randomness when should we discuss Lucario?
 

RT

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Fox and Sheik at the same time would be fine. My experience with both are quite limited, but I have some general ideas about what to do. I think the last time I played a good Fox in tourney was Samboner during one of his rare in-person tourney appearances but that was a looooooooooooooooong time ago, lol.
 

RT

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Pit: 55:45 or something around there.
TL: 55:45-45:55 depending how the TL plays.
 

Alus

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I dunno... It just seems like if the TL knows what he is doing, he has a bit of a advantage...

I don't know, maybe i suck.
 

phi1ny3

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imo it's
Pit: 55:45 lucario's advantage
TL: 45:55 TL's advantage, arguably 50:50 (I really hate having only a true edge on the ground game, and some of his kill moves really suck if you get nailed correctly too.)
 

RT

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TL boards have it listed as in their favor in their outdated matchup thread. But, the matchup seems evenish overall, so put whatever numbers. Move on to something else. :)
 

tedward2000

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Tea time = go time!
Fox and Sheik are good to go![/QUOTE]

That pic, wth, my life is just one coincidence after another. I was just talking to a friend about the odd tea time in SSE with a friend, but we couldnt remember who was having the tea.
and yea theres peach over there too.
-t2
 

day-day

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Can't say much about Sheik as I haven't played many of them.
The Fox's I've played though love to spam that laser of their's. Ed agrees with the new topic title though cause Fox's usmash is full of kanker..
 

RT

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My experience is very limited...I haven't played a good tourney Fox in forever. But, I can help with some very GENERAL info. Someone else has to fill in the gaps, lol...

Fox:

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Dsmash and Fsmash: You probably won't see these moves too often, because usmash is the preferred kill move of choice. But know that they can still kill if you don't expect it. If anything, the Fox might use these for damage building to keep his usmash fresh.

-Usmash: Fox was well known for this move in Melee. While it's not the strongest usmash in the game, it certainly is probably one of the best because it comes out INSANELY fast. Lucario has not-so-good vertical recovery, so you can imagine this is bad news for him. And the fact that he can do it OoS...yeah. Most Foxes will try to leave this move fresh in order to get low percent kills. If the move does not sweetspot (you are hit with the back part of it), you will be knocked away at a horizontal trajectory. WATCH OUT FOR THOSE RUNNING USMASHES. Just keep an eye on your damage meter...if it approaches around 90% or so, expect a usmash in the very near future. If not, then you might get hit with a...

-Uair: Once again, if you ever played Melee, then you should not be a stranger to this move. Fortunately, it's slightly less powerful than it was in Melee (I think). Still, it can kill at pretty low percent if a Fox tries to chase you in the air with it. You can SDI the first hit and avoid the second, but it's not easy. Think of it Lucario's dair...but upside down. Or right side up? Whatever...you can challenge it with dair, but be warned that if you don't stop his attack, you may regret it.

-Dair: The driller...you can SDI it and shield/PS whatever attack he tries to use after it at low percents. Higher percents though, you're probably going to die because it has a lot of hitstun...uair should stop this move in my experience.

-Bair: A pretty decent horizontal aerial kill move. It's kind of like Lucario's bair, but it doesn't linger.

-Reflector: AKA, the SHINE! You should know what this does...it reflects stuff. If you played Melee, you should know what a shinespike is...fortunately, it's not nearly as godly in Brawl, but it's still pretty good edgeguard move against some characters. Also, DON'T HANG AROUND CORNERS. Shine+wall=danger. Has some invincibility frames.

-Blaster: It's a gun that shoots lasers REALLY FAST. Must be made with low quality materials, because it causes no knockback and very little damage. Also, it must have malfunctioned because it has terrible range. Still, it's main purpose is to build up damage and to annoy. It also refreshes Fox's kill moves quickly. Hmm, maybe it's not a bad move after all...

-Fox Illusion: Fox's main recovery move. He pauses and then activates the move, making him travel as fast as a...fox. It can be canceled by the user for mindgames. Has some invincibility, but most moves can stop it.

-FireFox: Fox's vertical recovery move. It's not that good, but Fox is pretty well protected during the move. But most Foxes are afraid to use this move from fear of getting gimped.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-This match is mostly about getting the kill first, because Fox doesn't really have trouble killing. He's light, so you should be able to kill him easily if he doesn't kill you first. Otherwise, you could end up playing a dangerous game of keeping up with him. Once you're down a stock, be prepared to work extra hard to catch up...
-A Fox will watch his spacing and zoning, so keep this in mind while planning your move.
-Fox is a fastfaller, so low percent combos will work on him for a bit. Don't get greedy though.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Lucario definitely has more range overall, but Fox has several moves that come out very quick. Fox also has plenty of kill moves, so Lucario might die kind of early if you aren't careful.
-Fox has very limited recovery options when offstage overall. He can either Illusion onto the stage, onto the edge, or use FireFox. Yeah, he can shinestall, use rising fair, cancel his Illusion, blah blah blah, but FireFox and Illusion are the main ways. Pay special attention to see if the Fox has used his second jump. If so, it REALLY limits his options.
-Lots of moves can go through Illusion. AS, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Jab...heck, you can even GRAB him out of it. The trick is to learn the timing. Illusion comes out pretty fast, so you just have to predict it.
-PLEASE NOTE: while it is THEORETICALLY easy to gimp a Fox, you probably won't do it that much unless the Fox doesn't know what they are doing. It's theoretically easy to gimp a Lucario because his recovery has no hitboxes, and yet, it's hard to do in practice...

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Since Fox has a reflector, learn to use Aura Sphere wisely. Spamming AS in this match is a bad idea, unless it's to edgeguard a Fox that is offscreen.
-Watch out for shinespike attempts. Since Lucario's recovery does not protect him, a Fox could shinespike you, grab the edge, and force you to recover back onto the the stage. And that could mean a free punish...
-Be careful about using slower moves at higher percents, because a missed attack could mean a usmash to the face...

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Since Fox will be killing with mostly vertical moves, avoid any stage with a low ceiling. For neutrals, avoid PS1.
-Since Fox will rely mainly on his Fox Illusion for recovery, pick stages that have passable floors. Delfino is an okay choice. If you're not comfortable with this, pick a stage with a LARGE ceiling, like Pictochat or Japes. Most spacies hate Lylat because of the tilting stage, so you could try there.

Overall
-You won't see too many Foxes in tournament, but a good Fox could surprise you. Just be prepared if you've never played one. Matchup is evenish IMO.

There's probably a couple things wrong here and there, so correct me if I'm wrong. I know some people have more Fox experience than me, because my area has like zero good Foxes that are active. I'll might add stuff later as I see fit.

Sheik, I'll work on later. Fortunately, I have some decent Sheik experience...
 

day-day

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My experience is very limited...I haven't played a good tourney Fox in forever. But, I can help with some very GENERAL info. Someone else has to fill in the gaps, lol...

Fox:

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Dsmash and Fsmash: You probably won't see these moves too often, because usmash is the preferred kill move of choice. But know that they can still kill if you don't expect it. If anything, the Fox might use these for damage building to keep his usmash fresh.

-Usmash: Fox was well known for this move in Melee. While it's not the strongest usmash in the game, it certainly is probably one of the best because it comes out INSANELY fast. Lucario has not-so-good vertical recovery, so you can imagine this is bad news for him. And the fact that he can do it OoS...yeah. Most Foxes will try to leave this move fresh in order to get low percent kills. WATCH OUT FOR THOSE RUNNING USMASHES. Just keep an eye on your damage meter...if it approaches around 90% or so, expect a usmash in the very near future. If not, then you might get hit with a...

-Uair: Once again, if you ever played Melee, then you should not be a stranger to this move. Fortunately, it's slightly less powerful than it was in Melee (I think). Still, it can kill at pretty low percent if a Fox tries to chase you in the air with it. You can SDI the first hit and avoid the second, but it's not easy. Think of it Lucario's dair...but upside down. Or right side up? Whatever...

-Dair: The driller...you can SDI it and shield/PS whatever attack he tries to use after it at low percents. Higher percents though, you're probably going to die because it has a lot of hitstun...

-Bair: A pretty decent horizontal aerial kill move. It's kind of like Lucario's bair, but it doesn't linger.

-Reflector: AKA, the SHINE! You should know what this does...it reflects stuff. If you played Melee, you should know what a shinespike is...fortunately, it's not nearly as godly in Brawl, but it's still pretty good edgeguard move against some characters.

-Blaster: It's a gun that shoots lasers REALLY FAST. Must be made with low quality materials, because it causes no knockback and very little damage. Also, it must have malfunctioned because it has terrible range. Still, it's main purpose is to build up damage and to annoy. It also refreshes Fox's kill moves quickly. Hmm, maybe it's not a bad move after all...

-Fox Illusion: Fox's main recovery move. He pauses and then activates the move, making him travel as fast as a...fox. It can be canceled by the user for mindgames. Has some invincibility, but most moves can stop it.

-FireFox: Fox's vertical recovery move. It's not that good, but Fox is pretty well protected during the move. But most Foxes are afraid to use this move from fear of getting gimped.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-This match is mostly about getting the kill first, because Fox doesn't really have trouble killing. He's light, so you should be able to kill him easily if he doesn't kill you first. Otherwise, you could end up playing a dangerous game of keeping up with him. Once you're down a stock, be prepared to work extra hard to catch up...
-A Fox will watch his spacing and zoning, so keep this in mind while planning your move.
-Fox is a fastfaller, so low percent combos will work on him for a bit. Don't get greedy though.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Lucario definitely has more range overall, but Fox has several moves that come out very quick. Fox also has plenty of kill moves, so Lucario might do kind of early if you aren't careful.
-Fox has very limited recovery options when offstage overall. He can either Illusion onto the stage, onto the edge, or use FireFox. Yeah, he can shinestall, use rising fair, cancel his Illusion, blah blah blah, but FireFox and Illusion are the main ways. Pay special attention to see if the Fox has used his second jump. If so, it REALLY limits his options.
-Lots of moves can go through Illusion. AS, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Jab...heck, you can even GRAB him out of it. The trick is to learn the timing. Illusion comes out pretty fast, so you just have to predict it.
-PLEASE NOTE: while it is THEORETICALLY easy to gimp a Fox, you probably won't do it that much unless the Fox doesn't know what they are doing. It's theoretically easy to gimp a Lucario because his recovery has no hitboxes, and yet, it's hard to do in practice...

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Since Fox has a reflector, learn to use Aura Sphere wisely. Spamming AS in this match is a bad idea, unless it's to edgeguard a Fox that is offscreen.
-Watch out for shinespike attempts. Since Lucario's recovery does not protect him, a Fox could shinespike you, grab the edge, and force you to recover back onto the the stage. And that could mean a free punish...
-Be careful about using slower moves at higher percents, because a missed attack could mean a usmash to the face...

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Since Fox will be killing with mostly vertical moves, avoid any stage with a low ceiling. For neutrals, avoid PS1.
-Since Fox will rely mainly on his Fox Illusion for recovery, pick stages that have passable floors. Delfino is an okay choice. If you're not comfortable with this, pick a stage with a LARGE ceiling, like Pictochat or Japes. Most spacies hate Lylat because of the tilting stage, so you could try there.

Overall
-You won't see too many Foxes in tournament, but a good Fox could surprise you. Just be prepared if you've never played one. Matchup is evenish IMO.

There's probably a couple things wrong here and there, so correct me if I'm wrong. I know some people have more Fox experience than me, because my area has like zero good Foxes that are active. I'll might add stuff later as I see fit.

Sheik, I'll work on later. Fortunately, I have some decent Sheik experience...
^ This, Ed wishes he knew this much about fox :laugh:
Usmash is definitely the biggest thing Lucario has to worry about imo. That and the other smashes cause their remarkably quick with fsmash being the slowest of the 3.
Hm so maybe 50-50?..
 

HyperEnergy

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A few more things to worry about when facing fox are his dair combos.

At lower percents he can use dair to utilt and then continue utilting until you DI up and away (fortunately Lucario is floaty, so Fox can't really get more than two utilts on us with proper DI).

At higher percents his dair can combo into usmash. Not sure if this works on Lucario or not, but it's nevertheless something to watch out for.
 

RT

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Dair->anything works at higher percents because of increased hitstun. You should be able to powershield at lower percents in my experience. Just hold shield during the dair, and you should be able to buffer a shield at the earliest time possible.

Updated my post with some random additions and corrections; expect Sheik sometime today. If I play later this week, I might toy with Fox and Sheik personally to see if I missed anything. :)
 

Alus

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(fortunately Lucario is floaty, so Fox can't really get more than two utilts on us with proper DI).
With proper "DI" you can get out immediately after the first hit...

Dair->anything works at higher percents because of increased hitstun. You should be able to powershield at lower percents in my experience. Just hold shield during the dair, and you should be able to buffer a shield at the earliest time possible.
That just means that fox will try to grab :)


I don't give a flying **** about shiek...
 

Vionce

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rockettrainer covered fox pretty well. I just have a few things to add.
don't aeiral his shield (it's pretty much a guaranteed usmash) and ground dodge running upsmashes. Usually you'll have enough time to ground dodge again or u-tilt if he's going for a pivot grab.
You'll never outcamp fox thanks to lasers and his reflector.
Don't try to brick wall too much either, that's just asking for an usmash.
I'm pretty sure ftilt out ranges the usmash.
Play on the ground defensively, jab, tilt and shield grab everything. don't go to the air unless the fox is in the air.
AS when he's recovering to avoid reflected AS.
If the dair connects and you can't DI out, you'll either be grabbed or usmashed. Of course you can try to jab first, buffer a shield, or buffer a ground dodge.

For stages I recommend fd, YI, or japes. I don't like frigate cuz it is smaller and gives fox more opportunities for an usmash. FD gives plenty of space to manouver, YI with the single platform helps evade lasers and helps us set up aeiral atks. Japes just has a freaking high ceiling. I don't like BF too much due to the stationary platforms helping fox set up usmashes.
 

RT

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With proper "DI" you can get out immediately after the first hit...



That just means that fox will try to grab :)


I don't give a flying **** about shiek...
Yeah, but most Foxes will try to do something out of it instead of grab. But if the Fox does start grabbing, you can try rolling away. However, the Fox could try to predict your roll. It just becomes a guessing game.
 

RT

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Double post, I know. Lol, please don't infract me. :(

Read what the Sheik boards think about the matchup (search Lucario).


SHEIK:

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Ftilt: It's one of her most used moves and for good reason. It's a combo starter...heck, it combos into itself! Most characters can get ftilt locked into a very high percent and the finished off with a different move. Fortunately, it doesn't work very well on Lucario, even at low percents. Still, a Sheik might use this for some quick damage.

-Uair: The move is an okay juggler and a Sheik can try to chase you in the air with it. You shouldn't die from it unless you are at a VERY high percent. Lucario's dair should stop it.

-Fair: A possible kill move at higher percents because of the trajectory it prodcues without DI. A decent edgeguard move and can be done multiple times and comes out fast. It has to be sweetspotted for maximum effect.

Bair: A sex kick, like her nair, but probably better. An okay edgeguard move.

-Usmash: This is one of her main killing moves. However, it has to be sweetspotted in order to kill early. Otherwise, it won't do much. Sheik has a pretty good DACUS, so if you see a Sheik far away from you and you're at high percents, be wary of a possible DACUS attempt. Fortunately, you can usually S/DI the first hit of her DACUS and avoid the second hit. Also be aware of OoS attempts if you above her.

-Needles: Ah, these were mega annoying in Melee. While they are still annoying in Brawl, they are slightly less versatile. However, they can still be used to annoy and to edgeguard. I believe they can cancel out AS, but I could be wrong.

-Chain: Hey, this move actually has a use now! Most Sheiks will use this as their main recovery move, as opposed to Vanish. It functions as a tether recovery, so treat it as such and keep in mind possible edgeguard mindgames with it. Also, know what the Chain Jacket glitch comes from this move. But if you see a Sheik doing the glitch, just throw a fully charged Aura Sphere. It should go through IIRC.

-Vanish: It's supposed to be a recovery move, but very few Sheiks use it unless they have no other choice. It has some landing lag, can be hard to aim/sweetspot, and doesn't cover much distance. However, Sheiks will also use this move as a kill move. So if you see this move while onstage, don't go near her. Note that there is a secondary "wind" hitbox when she reappears that slightly pushes people away.

-Transform: Changes her to Zelda. But it's very rare to see someone main both...

-Wallcling and Crawl: Keep this in mind.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Sheik lacks range for the most part, so you can outspace her with a majority of Lucario's moves.
-Since she has very little range, some Sheiks might have trouble approaching. Keep this in mind.
-She is light and somewhat fast faller.
-She is kind of fast, and her moves come out kind of fast.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Lucario wins in the range department. Use this to your advantage.
-Since Sheik has trouble killing, you should be living super long for the most part. I've lived to over 200%, but normal average is probably 150-160%. And since Sheik can't kill early reliably, Lucario will probably get close to max Aura very frequently. Use this to your advantage!
-Sheik is overall light. Don't be surprised to see her die from a fsmash around 100%, maybe less!
-If you see a Sheik trying to recover, grab the edge. Most Sheiks will try to use the Chain, and if it misses they will either plummet to their death because of the lag or be forced to use Vanish (which has terrible range). Either way, the Sheik is usually at a terrible disadvantage.

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Sheiks can use Needles to interrupt AS charges and just to annoy. Don't get pressured by them.
-Don't pressure yourself in the matchup. You should almost always outlast the Sheik.

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Ideally, you want to pick anything with a huge ceiling or without edges that can be tethered.
-Neutrals: I'm actually at a loss here. I guess BF would be a not so good choice if you aren't comfortable with platform games. PS1 would be a bad choice because of low ceiling. Honestly, I don't think she has an exceptionally good neutral.
-Counterpick: Most Sheiks will try to pick a stage that has a low ceiling and no walls for Lucario to wallcling recovery. Halberd fits this profile, but your experience may vary. Once again, I can't really think of a good Sheik stage...
-You should try counterpicking a stage that has no edge to tether onto. Frigate seems like a good choice. I guess avoid Norfair because it gives Sheik plenty of options for recovery and avoid Pirate Ship because it protects her recovery weakness.

Overall:
-Matchup is most certainly in Lucario's favor. Most Sheiks dislike this matchup, and I have to agree with the Sheik boards and say it is around 60-40.

I might add some stuff later, probably missed some stuff, feel free to correct me, blah blah blah. Also added a small addition to Fox one. :)
 

Vionce

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Yeah, but most Foxes will try to do something out of it instead of grab. But if the Fox does start grabbing, you can try rolling away. However, the Fox could try to predict your roll. It just becomes a guessing game.
probably safer just to shield. The worst case is another grab (it's not going to kill until like 200%). If fox guesses the roll correctly and usmashes u die.
 

RT

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Lucario shouldn't camp in general. He isn't that good at camping.

How are you finding Lucario, CO18? He's...pretty average, lol.
 
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