Since the Matchup Thread is Taking Forever...

[Samuelson]

This is a matchup thread that I made for Lucario. It is based on my opinion, observations, personal experience and a little bit of theory/thinking. Right now I only have numbers but I will eventually support my claims later. I can't do this all in one day lol

Feel free to disagree with me but make sure you can back your **** up. If you have not been to a tourney and all your matchup experience is from your scrubby friends or online play then please do not post in this thread. I am not biased and if you make a good point then I will have no problem changing some things around.




Meta Knight - 45:55

Snake - 40:60

Falco - 55:45

King Dedede - 45:55

G&W - 45:55

- Lots of Lucario mains consider G&W to be Lucario's worst matchup which is something I disagree with. This matchup on paper is pretty bad for Lucario but in actuality it's not that bad at all. G&W shouldn't be killing a good Lucario until about 150 and usually that is with Fair. Offstage gimps do happen but it honestly shouldn't be happening that much. You're probably thinking "Sam, you're dumb, G&W has 3 smashes that can kill under 100%." Yes, G&W can kill at under 100% but if you get hit by Usmash or Fsmash then you should just go die in a fire. Those moves are extremely easy to avoid and no good Lucario main should be getting hit by those. Dsmash kills do happen, I used to get killed by that move all the time and it was mainly because I would try to punish one of his Smashes. Don't try to punish his smashes with grabs, G&W is stupid and his smashes are pretty hard to punish. Don't get roll happy either, Dsmash can and will punish roll happy Lucario's.
- G&W has an EXTREMELY hard time tech chasing Lucario with his Dthrow. He can't get a free Dsmash from Dthrow which is obviously a plus and he can't predict your roll and land a Usmash as long as you roll right away.
- You should be aware that G&W's aerials beat yours completely so DO NOT try to challenge him in the air. Try to stay on the ground for the most part of this match. G&W's key is beat out by our Usmash, I will try to do things to bait him into using the key so i can get a free Usmash, it actually works really well. His turtle can be escaped by using SDI which results in a free Dair from us.
- His bucket isn't really a huge deal in this matchup as long as you're not an idiot and shoot an AS from the entire distance of FD. If he somehow buckets 2 aura sphere's then DON'T use aura sphere anymore.
- In my opinion, the only thing that would make this a bad matchup is the stages he can gay us on. If you ban Corneria then he will most likely take you to Rainbow Cruise and if you ban Rainbrow Cruise then he will most likely take you to Corneria lol. Lucky for me, I live in an area that doesn't allow Corneria in singles so I always ban Rainbow Cruise. I usually then get taken to Halberd, Lylat, PS1 or Delfino.

Marth - 40:60

- This is my least favorite matchup. Marth beats Lucario in air and on the ground. This match basically consists of playing really gay with AS and spacing with Fsmash a lot. Marth can powershield Fsmash and Side B OoS though. He also has a lot of moves that out prioritize AS. Be very careful when going up into the air against Marth, his fair destroys our fair. He has a blindspot which is right below him so try your hardest to juggle him with uairs.
- The biggest problem Marth will have is killing you. If you can avoid tippers then you should live until pretty high percents. Watch out for Up B OoS, that kills lol. Don't Dair his shield or you will get *****!

Diddy - 60:40

---------------

Wario - 45:55

ROB - 55:45

Lucario - 50:50 (Stupid Ditto imo)

Olimar - 45:55

---------------

Pikachu - 55:45

Kirby - 55:45

Donkey Kong - 45:55

Ice Climbers - 60:40

---------------

ZSS - 60:40

Toon Link - 50:50

Pit - 55:45

Peach - 60:40

Wolf - 45:55

---------------

Luigi - 55:45

Zelda - 60:40

Bowser - 55:45

Fox - 60:40

Sheik - 60:40

Ike - 65:35

---------------

Mario - 60:40

Lucas - 60:40

Ness - 60:40

Samus - 60:40

Sonic - 60:40

Pokemon Trainer - 60:40 (Squirtle - 65:35, Ivysaur - 65:35, Charizard - 55:45)

Yoshi - 60:40

---------------

Link - 60:40

Jigglypuff - 65:35

Ganon - 70:30

Captain Falcon - 70:30

 

[jog]

i'm still learning a lot so i'm just going to sit and listen and not be stupid and say something i don't know. but i would like why you think wolf has a 60-40 advantage. i haven't played a good wolf before so i can't say i disagree but in my head i just thought we had the advantage. and also i thought lucario was closer to snake and marth then 60-40. its not like those are horrible disadvantages. i'm just curious

 

[iRJi]

Lol, the matchup list is taking so long because no one is supervising it at the moment. Idk where the person is. I admire the rush for the matchups but with out proper disscussion on each one some info might be inaccurate, and also there will be no disscussion on how to play teh matchup. Just give it time to come together. Maybe we can contact Kitamerby and let him know hes falling asleep on it xD. That, or jus get someone else to run the matchup list. Timbers is a good person to do it since hes always active and everything, Phil is also good for it.

But for this thread, Wolf isnt a 60:40 at all. GW is actually a 60:40 in his favor, and i can back that up pretty good. Snake is a flat out 50:50, matchup isn't hard at all, Falco is a 50:50, so is pit. And I always wanted to battle out the fact that fox might be (Just Might Be) an even matchup, that or its a 45:55. Diddy is a 45:55. D3 is also a 60:40 in his favor. Ike is a 60:40 in our favor, 100% just that. Honestly there is a lot of information that could be inaccuate on this thread, which is why I encourage that we discuss every character they way we have been. Rushing into a quick-pick witout clear and rational reason will just make things a bit harder in the long run.

 

[Omnath]

I think the Lucario matchup thread is reallllly bad. It seems to me that it's just a compilation of random posts about something. Solid stategies should be formed, seriously. Maybe you could add your own commentaries on each character? Look through other character's threads and see their strategies against Lucario, that could be a basis for a counter-strat.

Edit: Though, I would have to say that if Lucario had as many good matchups as this thread suggests, he would be higher up on the tier list.

Also, for the record, Game & Watch is a terrible matchup for Lucario, I'll back it up here in a sec.

Edit (again): Game & Watch has a good game against Lucario, turtle out-prioritizes any air attack Lucario can throw at him. Though Lucario is good at punishing Game and Watch, but those are generally the sloppier types. F-Smash with Lucario is a good punishing move against him though. Even then though, B-air and F-air both out prioritize Lucario's air, causing a lot of problems when off the edge.

 

[DarkISDA]

I certainly don't approve our advantage over Peach here. Even though she'll take forever to kill us, she is just a demon in the air. You gotta play differently versus here or you'll get ***** before you can use Aura efficiently. But of course, because of Aura, we can kill her faster, but at same level of play, Lucario should die at way more damage than a Peach, thus making it more even than in our favor for us.

 

[phi1ny3]

Imo, Peach and TL should be harder (peach 50:50, TL 55:45 disadvantage), as well as D3 (at least 60:40), G&W (55:45), Ness ( advantage), and Mario (55:45 advantage). Easier imo should be: Snake (55:45 disadvantage), wolf (55:45 disadvantage), and mabye Bowser (actually, he should stay that way, nevermind).
Edit: I thought since this list was rather opinionated, I didn't feel the need to bring up statements until later.

 

[Samuelson]

I'll have reasons up later lol

If you read my post i said i would do that. None of you guys brought up any valid points btw. All you said was GaW is a terrible matchup or Snake isn't hard at all.

 

[G-Beast]

finally someone who shares my views(mostly) on the cast.

i salute you, Sammeh

 

[Milln]

finally someone who shares my views(mostly) on the cast.

i salute you, Sammeh

Woof.

10arfarfs

 

[Omnath]

I'll have reasons up later lol

If you read my post i said i would do that. None of you guys brought up any valid points btw. All you said was GaW is a terrible matchup or Snake isn't hard at all.

*Coughs* I brought my points up, maybe you weren't paying attention?

Game & Watch has a good game against Lucario, turtle out-prioritizes any air attack Lucario can throw at him. Though Lucario is good at punishing Game and Watch, but those are generally the sloppier types. F-Smash with Lucario is a good punishing move against him though. Even then though, B-air and F-air both out prioritize Lucario's air, causing a lot of problems when off the edge.

Check my initial post *Coughs*

 

[Samuelson]

G&W having 2 moves that are good vs Lucario isn't enough to make it in his favor imo.

 

[Ilucamy]

I think this list was quite hastily put together with only 1 opinion and is therefore too biased to be of any use.

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just saying that you may have a certain preference for matchups and have harder times with others. This'll probably skew your idea of the matchup in comparison with the common Lucario.

You can't have a matchup based off of 1 person's opinion, after all, the number is just an opinion in itself >_>
Oh, but I'd like to see what you put up for your impressions of the matchup, information like that is always useful.

 

[Samuelson]

I said this is based off my opinion. Nowhere did i say that this should be the new matchup thread. Ilucamy...why don't you go to Chula Vista weeklies if you live in San Diego??? I havn't seen you at ANY tournaments around here.

 

[Ilucamy]

Well sorry if I said something wrong, but I just don't think this is really.... necessary. I mean, I can't really say I can do a better job, but I think that we should base matchups off of the community as a whole. You can never say you're not biased. It's humanly impossible, everyone is biased.

Oh and I don't go to Chula Vista weeklies just because I either have something to do or I keep forgetting >_> (I have a life outside of brawl you know....... yeah, I wouldn't have guessed either)
Soooo yea, the only noteworthy tournament I've been to is WGF. Other than that it's just small stuff.

I'll get to a Chula Vista weekly eventually.... I hope.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Chula Vista weeklies are too good. You should go and say hi for me.

 

[|RK|]

You can never say you're not biased. It's humanly impossible, everyone is biased.

That's what annoys me, your pessimistic attitude.

"Hard, a day. Impossible, a little longer."
-?????

You're being biased, y'know. What you're using as a basis is only what YOU understand. ^_^

 

[Sorgens]

Care to explain Diddy's ratings a little? I have a lot of trouble against him so any explanation to help me against him would be appreciated.

 

[Samuelson]

Care to explain Diddy's ratings a little? I have a lot of trouble against him so any explanation to help me against him would be appreciated.

Diddy can't kill for **** which means that you're gonna be owning him with aura. Your aura sphere kind of owns Diddy's ground game which is where he thrives. You beat him in the air and you can actually gimp his recovery.

 

[G-Beast]

Woof.

10arfarfs

what is that supposed to mean?

 

[Fogo]

I dont get 60:40 IC's

how so?

 

[Samuelson]

Lucario can avoid getting grabbed extremely well. Dair separates IC's and Lucario's Fthrow is fast enough to separate them also.

 

[Fogo]

Hmm, i gotta go try that.

 

[DMG]

I think Diddy is not in Lucario's favor. Aside from the fact that his ground game is more solid that yours, he also can block auraspheres with Bananas. This makes camping him a lot harder when you add in how well he can punish rolls with Glide Tossing and his great running speed. Lucario beats him a bit in range in the air, but he's gonna have trouble getting down safely if he chooses to go that route. Diddy will also be extremely hard to kill if he plays campy.

I think you have the advantage, or at the very possible worst, even vs DK. I also think your advantage over Luigi is more than 55:45.

This list looks pretty good, I might come back and discuss some of it sometime later today.

 

[Timbers]

Luc really shouldn't be over 55:45 on Diddy. I don't know where this "well he doesnt kill until late" stuff comes in. It's not the percent you die at that gives Luc trouble, it's his inability to control a matchup that is difficult for him. Toon, Marth, MK, DDD; for example, all kill relatively late, but is completely irrelevant in the matchup, as their dominance of stage control really evens it out. With that said, Diddy can wreck you on the ground, and Luc's spacing game tends to get pestered with as nanas break your walls very easily. Your saving grace is here is that a lot of Diddy's setups leave him open should all not go according to plan. In a situation like this, it's always nice to bait the approach and put it to an immediate halt with aurasphere. It's a relatively difficult matchup to put in words, but Diddy is very easy to get a momentum going.

DDD needs to be 60:40 DDD favor.

DK is 50:50. There's really not much to say about this matchup that hasn't been said over and over.

Luigi at 55:45 is fine. You can get a reasonable camp game going on Luigi but he also shuts down a lot of your options and aerial game. You're very limited in this matchup, despite still having said few powerful options.

 

[phi1ny3]

Luc really shouldn't be over 55:45 on Diddy. I don't know where this "well he doesnt kill until late" stuff comes in. It's not the percent you die at that gives Luc trouble, it's his inability to control a matchup that is difficult for him. Toon, Marth, MK, DDD; for example, all kill relatively late, but is completely irrelevant in the matchup, as their dominance of stage control really evens it out. With that said, Diddy can wreck you on the ground, and Luc's spacing game tends to get pestered with as nanas break your walls very easily. Your saving grace is here is that a lot of Diddy's setups leave him open should all not go according to plan. In a situation like this, it's always nice to bait the approach and put it to an immediate halt with aurasphere. It's a relatively difficult matchup to put in words, but Diddy is very easy to get a momentum going.

DDD needs to be 60:40 DDD favor.

DK is 50:50. There's really not much to say about this matchup that hasn't been said over and over.

Luigi at 55:45 is fine. You can get a reasonable camp game going on Luigi but he also shuts down a lot of your options and aerial game. You're very limited in this matchup, despite still having said few powerful options.

I totally agree. Looking at only kill rate would neglect a boatload of character's metagames in terms of control. And all three of these matchup numbers I agree with. Especially DDD's.

 

[manhunter098]

I think Diddy is not in Lucario's favor. Aside from the fact that his ground game is more solid that yours, he also can block auraspheres with Bananas. This makes camping him a lot harder when you add in how well he can punish rolls with Glide Tossing and his great running speed. Lucario beats him a bit in range in the air, but he's gonna have trouble getting down safely if he chooses to go that route. Diddy will also be extremely hard to kill if he plays campy.

I think you have the advantage, or at the very possible worst, even vs DK. I also think your advantage over Luigi is more than 55:45.

This list looks pretty good, I might come back and discuss some of it sometime later today.

Its not that difficult to catch Diddy's bananas, I think this matchup has a lot more to do with the stage than anything else though.

 

[G-Beast]

now that i look i dont see how wario has an advantage on Lucario...

 

[Samuelson]

Diddy's banana's don't block aura sphere...lol? The reason that matchup is hard for Diddy is because our AS makes it hard for Diddy to control the ground and kind of forces him in the air where we **** him him hard. We can glide toss the nanerz really well, we out class him in spacing, we beat him in the air, we can edge guard his recovery pretty easily. As long as Lucario's learn to control the banana's and refrain from using Fsmash if Diddy has a banana then this matchup is pretty much a nightmare for Diddy Kong. Easier said then done but still....bad matchup for Diddy. O yeah...on top of all that...Diddy can't kill for ****, which isn't a HUGE factor but it's still something that is worth being mentioned.

Maybe DDD is 60:40. Ive never lost to DDD in tourney so maybe I'm just biased or I'm just playing the matchup right.

I think DK has the advantage because he can outspace us on the ground and his Bair beats our Fair. He can also kill stupidly early, it's not horrible for Lucario or anything but one slip up or trip (SAKURAIII) and you can die at like 80% which is no fun for Lucario.