Simple facts that you may not know...

[B Link]

Yeah the momentum staying is not caused by somebody using an attack or something. So of course the momentum will stay with Luigi up-B, Yoshi down-B, whatever. Unless there's an attack that cancels all momentum, which is possible (Game and Watch bucket in Brawl)

And you know Ness's PK Thunder2 has "parry" frames right? Not really related to that quote.

Yeah I just remembered the term: momentum sliding. It's obvious that it works with all A moves but I doubt people here have seen the stranger ones like a sliding yoshi down B.

And you know Ness's PK Thunder2 has "parry" frames right? Not really related to that quote.

Related because it's about ness and DK's punch. Oh I didn't know it was parry frames I thought it was invincibility (doesn't parrying only refer to yoshi in ssb?). I've never looked at the hitboxes for ness's upb recovery.

 

[The Star King]

Related because it's about ness and DK's punch. Oh I didn't know it was parry frames I thought it was invincibility (doesn't parrying only refer to yoshi in ssb?). I've never looked at the hitboxes for ness's upb recovery.

Well, with normal invincibility you just miss the character, like the beginning of Puff's rest or Pikachu's up-b. This is a different kind where you hear the hit sound effect and get hitlag, but they don't take damage - like with Yoshi's parry. People usually only use "parry" to refer to the beginning of Yoshi's shield but the same type of hitbox appears in other attacks - off the top of my head, Ness's recovery, Samus's recovery, and the arms of DK's recovery (the hitbox is green in the "hitbox mode" used in Fireblaster's hitbox thread).

 

[clubbadubba]

Well, with normal invincibility you just miss the character, like the beginning of Puff's rest or Pikachu's up-b. This is a different kind where you hear the hit sound effect and get hitlag, but they don't take damage - like with Yoshi's parry. People usually only use "parry" to refer to the beginning of Yoshi's shield but the same type of hitbox appears in other attacks - off the top of my head, Ness's recovery, Samus's recovery, and the arms of DK's recovery (the hitbox is green in the "hitbox mode" used in Fireblaster's hitbox thread).

Well we call it start up invincibility when u come off the cloud. A better term for pika and jiggle dodgin would be invisibility

 

[Sangoku]

I like to say "blue frame invincibility" and "green frame invincibility".

I found something today, but I'm not going to reveal it right away, I'll let you guess. What is this (objective) tier list about?

1- Ness
2- Yoshi
3- Kirby
4- Jiggly
5- Pika
6- Samus
7- Mario
8- Luigi
9- Donkey Kong
10- Captain Falcon
11- Fox
12- Link

I doubt anyone will find out, but maybe if something else comes up it could explain what I found.

 

[SSBPete]

fox has recovery parry frames in j

i think some (all?) grabs have invincibility frames after they connect

 

[clubbadubba]

I like to say "blue frame invincibility" and "green frame invincibility".

I found something today, but I'm not going to reveal it right away, I'll let you guess. What is this (objective) tier list about?

1- Ness
2- Yoshi
3- Kirby
4- Jiggly
5- Pika
6- Samus
7- Mario
8- Luigi
9- Donkey Kong
10- Captain Falcon
11- Fox
12- Link

I doubt anyone will find out, but maybe if something else comes up it could explain what I found.

hmm my initial guess was fastest to get their second jump out, but that can't be right. Maybe max jump height without up-b? Maybe fastest to get an attack out after a jump, or highest priority out of jump if same time. Something with jumping for sure, because the combo of ness/yoshi, kirby/jiggly, and mario/luigi back to back can't be a coincidence when those pairs have similar jumping mechanisms.

 

[Sangoku]

Interesting ideas, but unfortunately it is much more useless than what you proposed.

In fact it is a which character can go through another one against a wall tier list. Imagine you have a Captain Falcon as close as possible to a wall. Now if Donkey Kong dashes against the wall and stops, Donkey Kong will have taken Captain Falcon's place by "pushing" him away from the wall. On the contrary, if DK tries to do the same with Ness, Ness won't move and DK will slide away from the wall.

That must be the most useless tier list lol.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Interesting ideas, but unfortunately it is much more useless than what you proposed.

In fact it is a which character can go through another one against a wall tier list. Imagine you have a Captain Falcon as close as possible to a wall. Now if Donkey Kong dashes against the wall and stops, Donkey Kong will have taken Captain Falcon's place by "pushing" him away from the wall. On the contrary, if DK tries to do the same with Ness, Ness won't move and DK will slide away from the wall.

That must be the most useless tier list lol.

This is obviously why i put ness 6th in my tier list opinion.

No one pushes ness around!!

Spoiler

Except half the cast, and everyone when he's off stage...(I feel like im stealing for some reason...)

 

[Han Solo]

I can't count the number of times I've tried as Fox to "go through" DK by the tent to no avail.

 

[clubbadubba]

does that walking through priority have anything to do with pushing characters off of edges? Because that is actually.... I don't wanna say useful, because its rarely on purpose, but it is significant as I have been pushed to my frustrating death many a time lol

 

[WOTG]

I'm sure I seen it like twice already, but not 100% sure on it, Jigglypuff can duck through Samus' dash attack.

 

[asianaussie]

poor link

always last

 

[Sangoku]

So it is indeed related: Ness is the best at pushing people around. On stage and off edges.

WOTG: confirmed, I checked.

uh probably just you can only cancel a jab with a grab in a certain number of frames after start-up

Just checked antdgar's frame data and Pikachu/Ness/Mario/Luigi all have a hitbox out in 1 frame so I guess you have to cancel it in 1 frame + hitlag frames if you hit. But wait that can't be right because I can see at least 2 distinct frames in which it can be canceled (training mode 1/4 speed) so I think antdgar's chart LIES and it's actually 2. Someone TAS this.

If you don't hit anything:

Jabs can be cancelled by a grab on frame 1: never produces a hitbox (frame 2 is still in the jabbing animation, but since no jabs have a hitbox on frame 2, no hitbox comes out)
They can also be cancelled on frame 2: produces a hitbox for Pikachu, Ness, Mario, Luigi (because their jab has a hitbox coming out on frame 3, then on frame 4 the grab input takes place).
They can't be cancelled on frame 3 and after.

If you didn't understand this, maybe it's worthwhile reminding that EVERY action has a one frame delay (nothing comes out on the next frame of the input/release). Now I don't know how AntD made his charts or what is people's habit. Do you say for example that rest comes out in one frame or two? I would say two, because it's actually two, but maybe nobody counts the first one since it's common for every action?

Crouching between Samus' jabs cancels it: it allows for quicker first attack chain than just waiting. This is not a discovery, it has been well known for a long time already.

 

[The Star King]

Oh, so actions happen two frames after input? This is new to me. I thought it happened the next frame.

I don't think people would count the one empty frame, just the frames of the animation. But it doesn't matter because either way, antdgar's chart (well, not actually his) is wrong.

In your scenario, is "Frame 1" the first frame of the jab animation, or the first frame after input? And how many more frames do you gain from hitting someone?

 

[ant-d]

Actually not wrong. It just depends which frames you count and from what number you start counting. As Sangoku suggested.

Common ways to count are from 0 or 1; including or excluding input delay.
I was sometimes inconsistent with this, and did not get around to making everything the same.

The master copy has this note stated for each attack/field. But I doubt this is visible on public sources.

 

[Sangoku]

The way I do is like this:
*game freezes*: frame 0
*input a command*: frame 0
*go to next frame*: frame 1
*nothing has happened*: frame 1
*go to next frame*: frame 2
*jabbing animation has started*: frame 2

Therefore, for me frame 1 means the frame where nothing has already happened on the screen (the command has been registered though, so it will appear next frame, even if you release the button now). Therefore when I said "jab canceled by grab on frame 1", it meant the frame after the input. So in fact you input your grab before the jab has been appearing on screen, but as I said it was indeed registered. Since your grab also needs an empty following frame, this one frame will have the jab animation. Hope this clears things up (and doesn't add confusion).

By the way, I will always use this way of counting so everything I say stays consistent.

Concerning the hitlag, that's something I've always wondered: is it common to every attack, or does it depend on the attack? Maybe I'll try to figure it out myself...

One more fact I personally didn't know (just discovered it) : you can jab grab with z instead of r.

Okay, so after further testing:
-Hitlag depends on which attack you use. Probably depends on attack strength's (Pika jab has 4 frames of hitlag, while CF's fsmash has 10).
-You therefore have an additional 4 frame to cancel your jab with a grab (for pikachu). Going from a frame perfect situation (jab grab against nothing) to a 5 frame wide window (against opponent or shield) is quite some change.

 

[The Star King]

Actually not wrong. It just depends which frames you count and from what number you start counting. As Sangoku suggested.

Common ways to count are from 0 or 1; including or excluding input delay.
I was sometimes inconsistent with this, and did not get around to making everything the same.

The master copy has this note stated for each attack/field. But I doubt this is visible on public sources.

Actually yes wrong. Because if you count including the input delay, the hitbox for Mario/Luigi/Ness/Pikachu jab comes out frame 3 (according to Sangoku), and if you don't count the delay and only look at the animation, it comes out frame 2. Your chart has it listed as frame 1, so it's wrong either way.

The way I do is like this:
*game freezes*: frame 0
*input a command*: frame 0
*go to next frame*: frame 1
*nothing has happened*: frame 1
*go to next frame*: frame 2
*jabbing animation has started*: frame 2

Therefore, for me frame 1 means the frame where nothing has already happened on the screen (the command has been registered though, so it will appear next frame, even if you release the button now). Therefore when I said "jab canceled by grab on frame 1", it meant the frame after the input. So in fact you input your grab before the jab has been appearing on screen, but as I said it was indeed registered. Since your grab also needs an empty following frame, this one frame will have the jab animation. Hope this clears things up (and doesn't add confusion).

By the way, I will always use this way of counting so everything I say stays consistent.

OK cool I was right that it comes out frame 2 of the animation. You can figure out so much in 1/4 speed training mode lol

One more fact I personally didn't know (just discovered it) : you can jab grab with z instead of r.

Actually I am pretty sure this is why you can jab grab in the first place. When there's a method to do something with two inputs together, like a Smash or a grab, you obviously need a window of a certain number of frames where if both buttons are pressed it will do that action. Because if you require it to be frame perfect it will be too hard to do. So the developers put it in a two frame window to grab with A + Z, but overlooked the fact that the fastest jabs can get a hitbox out in that time.

Concerning the hitlag, that's something I've always wondered: is it common to every attack, or does it depend on the attack? Maybe I'll try to figure it out myself...

Okay, so after further testing:
-Hitlag depends on which attack you use. Probably depends on attack strength's (Pika jab has 4 frames of hitlag, while CF's fsmash has 10).
-You therefore have an additional 4 frame to cancel your jab with a grab (for pikachu). Going from a frame perfect situation (jab grab against nothing) to a 5 frame wide window (against opponent or shield) is quite some change.

Yeah was gonna say, apparently in Melee/Brawl hitlag is based on an attack's strength (not sure if by damage or knockback), so it's likely like that in 64 too. Weaker attacks seems like they have less hitlag.

The input delay means you can't input grab on the last frame of hitlag, right? So shouldn't that mean you actually have a 4 frame window to jab-grab on hit? The frame before hit + first 3 frames of hitlag?

 

[SSBPete]

im quite a big fan of using hitlag to my advantage. not so much anymore, but i used to struggle at ff attacks off platforms with fox and falcon. i used to miss the z-cancel a lot. it wouldn't bother me because whenever i got into the situation to use it, i would land it and gain an extra 5 frames or so to cancel it.

one more question: is hitlag greater on a shielding opponent?

 

[Sangoku]

Hitlag= shieldlag. Haven't double checked, but I'm pretty sure I did in the past.

 

[mixa]

Link can't grab the ledge while catching the boomerang, provided he is facing it when it arrives.

—

Mario and Luigi have upBs that reach higher than the only-upB and can make the character face the other way without loss of height. This is probably well know but I never saw for ex. a Luigi finish a combo with that upB, maybe it's uglier, idk.

—

The white star that appears when you fast fall has seven points.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

First one: I am a Link player and I have been killed by my own boomerang (Raises hand).

What exactly do you mean by the 2nd one?

I didn't know the last one, never payed attention.

Good info in general.

 

[Battlecow]

The reverse up-B's that the bros. have are well-known but rarely used

inb4 star king uses it every day and how could I not know that

 

[KnitePhox]

The reverse up-B's that the bros. have are well-known but rarely used

i guess when it comes to recovering, i agree, barely used; though i do it nearly every time i land/attempt a luigi upb, pretty standard imo

i think the ones people don't see very often is the more vertical upb's considering how much harder it is to do them/no knowledge how to do them consistently

 

[ballin4life]

pretty sure that's what battlecow is talking about - the upB that goes higher than normal (done by reversing the joystick briefly)

 

[Sangoku]

Hadn't seen The Star King's answer >__>.

Actually I am pretty sure this is why you can jab grab in the first place. When there's a method to do something with two inputs together, like a Smash or a grab, you obviously need a window of a certain number of frames where if both buttons are pressed it will do that action. Because if you require it to be frame perfect it will be too hard to do. So the developers put it in a two frame window to grab with A + Z, but overlooked the fact that the fastest jabs can get a hitbox out in that time.

Yes, that totally makes sense.

The input delay means you can't input grab on the last frame of hitlag, right? So shouldn't that mean you actually have a 4 frame window to jab-grab on hit? The frame before hit + first 3 frames of hitlag?

I'm not sure about this, but since the input delay was already counted in the frame perfect case, adding 4 frames of hitlag just switch the whole thing and the delayed frame is already counted. I think you're counting this frame twice: one for the no-opponent case + one for the hitlag case.

The reverse up-B's that the bros. have are well-known but rarely used

I always do it, but I'm not sure if I succeed or not. I think I don't because I never end up facing the wrong direction, therefore I'm probably doing it too late. I mean, I can't expect myself to never screw up at a technical thing...

Now for the facts part:

-If you roll toward a ledge (ie in farthest possible position to the side, facing into the stage), jump you'll end up grabbing the ledge and not onstage. This works with Donkey Kong, Link, Falcon, Yoshi, Kirby, Fox (only if fast fallen, otherwise you end up on stage), Pikachu, Jigglypuff. For the rest of the cast (ie Luigi, Mario, Samus, Ness), you can't roll a multiple times toward a ledge (or be close to the ledge, then roll). You need to be at a rolling distance (or a bit less) before rolling. Let's clarify with an example. Say your roll makes you move 2 meters horizontally, from the beginning to the end. Then you need to be at maybe 1.8-1.9 meters from the ledge before rolling. The distance depends on the character. I believe Ness is the most annoying (as in, whereas Luigi/Mario would require being at 1 to 2 meters, Ness needs to be at 1.9 meters). This leads to the following discovery.

- Rolling toward a ledge doesn't put you in the farthest possible position if you're not using the position thing I just explained. This one is the real farthest point.

Man that post is confusing as hell, hope you guys get it.

 

[SSBPete]

im almost certain that was aa's conjecture a while ago, but no one cared/listened

 

[Sangoku]

Well, had he come up with proofs, I'm sure everybody would have believed him. And to be honest, I don't think anyone will care/listen what I found either. These weird things only raise the interest of the one who discovers them, such as aa back then or me right now.

 

[The Star King]

The reverse up-B's that the bros. have are well-known but rarely used

inb4 star king uses it every day and how could I not know that

lol you know me well. I actually do use it. I remember when I went on my month long-hiatus and then went back and read some old posts, I saw everyone being all "lol so little gain for such risk who would ever use this" and I silently raged. Silently because I didn't want to reply to such old posts.

I think Boomfan might do them too, don't quote me on that though.

I only started doing it late in my keyboard career though, because I didn't know about it for a long time. I don't think it's THAT well-known.

no knowledge how to do them consistently

I know how. This is why it took me a long time to start doing them on keyboard. I had to figure out how to do it myself because I couldn't find any post on how to do it, and the description of this video was confusing/misleading. Anyways, you at the start of the up-b you have to move the joystick backwards and then immediately forwards. So if you're facing right, the joystick will be up (to do the up-b in the first place) -> left -> right.

My hypothesis is that you're reversing it with the backwards input like usual, but you cancel the reversing with the forward input while you're still in the window for determining up-b direction and the result is some weird in-between motion. Maybe Sangoku can tell us how many frames the window for determining up-b direction so we know how much time we have. Pretty please ;o

It's not that easy because you have to do it pretty fast, but not that hard either once you get used to it/know the timing.

I'm not sure about this, but since the input delay was already counted in the frame perfect case, adding 4 frames of hitlag just switch the whole thing and the delayed frame is already counted. I think you're counting this frame twice: one for the no-opponent case + one for the hitlag case.

Apologies if the following is confusing.

If I understand correctly, hitlag freezes you in the state you're in when you land the hit for a certain number of frames. So the window for jab-grab is extended by hitlag if jab hits in first frame hitbox is out, because in the first frame the hitbox is out you can cancel the jab with the grab, so that state is extended by hitlag.

The reason I think it's 4 can be explained by extending your scenario. You posted this is what happens without hitlag:

Well, had he come up with proofs, I'm sure everybody would have believed him. And to be honest, I don't think anyone will care/listen what I found either. These weird things only raise the interest of the one who discovers them, such as aa back then or me right now.

I, for one, like weird things like that

 

[Sangoku]

Yeah, by hitlag I meant in addition of the regular attack. That means a given frame (the one with the hitbox out) lasts 4 frames longer than usual. Since usually it's 1, in total it makes 5. So I don't know if we should say 4 or 5 frames of hitlag...

Concerning Luigi/Mario's UpB, I have only checked for Luigi, but I guess it's the same thing with Mario.

So after doing your UpB on frame 0, you have 5 frames to input away. You can input it anytime you want in this window and for any long you want in this window. Then on frame 6 you must input toward the stage if you don't want him to face the wrong direction. So:
0: UpB
1: Away or not
2: Away or not
3: Away or not
4: Away or not
5: Away or not
6: inside

Provided at least one of the "away or not" was actually away, you'll do the extended UpB. Now I don't know if there are different kinds of extended UpBs, this one sends you higher and more vertically.

 

[ballin4life]

5 frame window seems like it would be easy and I always found that tech to be pretty tough. Maybe I just wasn't pushing the stick far enough in the away direction?

 

[Sangoku]

What could be a good way is to input your UpB with up-away, then immediately go into. This way, you only have two directions (and not 3, with UpB, away, into). I don't have any controller, but with the keyboard it looks like it's kinda easily doable.

Damn Luigi can easily have his head below the bottom of dreamland and still make it with this UpB.

 

[The Star King]

What could be a good way is to input your UpB with up-away, then immediately go into. This way, you only have two directions (and not 3, with UpB, away, into). I don't have any controller, but with the keyboard it looks like it's kinda easily doable.

omg I didn't know you can do this. That makes it easier, thanks

5 frame window seems like it would be easy and I always found that tech to be pretty tough. Maybe I just wasn't pushing the stick far enough in the away direction?

Why would that seem easy? If you didn't know that you can start with up-away, you need to go from up to backwards, and then forwards within 6 frames. That's a tenth of a second.

 

[ballin4life]

Well there are techs that have a smaller window than that (running SHDL) that I can do a lot better.

It's probably just that I'm underestimating the distance that the joystick has to travel - as I implied before.

 

[Battlecow]

I can do the reverse/vertical up-B pretty easily

so it's pretty easy

I don't use it tho

 

[Timotheus]

If you stand exact on the ledge facing the stage and make a fthrow, the attacked player starts flying a little bit behind you. Looks like he's di'ing your throw

 

[The Star King]

I think that only applies to Falcon's fthrow

 

[Timotheus]

I only checked mario and falcon. It happened on both chars

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

happens with every character

 

[Sangoku]

The power of a Falcon punch oscillates between 24 and 26 depending on how far you are from the character. It's easier against some than others. This game is ****ed up...

 

[TANK64]

^^wtf, that sounds crazy lol.

Also, with Ness (if you're real close) you can duck a falcon punch.