Simple facts that you may not know...

[TalosSSB]

You can buffer your moves with Fast Fall.

 

[asianaussie]

you can buffer a lot of things with a lot of things

but you cannot buffer upwards when fast falling unless you have used your jump(s) already, or if you are in an attack animation

if that's not what you mean then idk what you're saying

 

[Sempiternity]

you can sort of buffer up when shield dropping (maybe regular dropping too)

if you drop and instantly smash up+A, you'll Uair without double jumping

timing isn't much, but it's certainly doable

perhaps the same applies to fast falls?

 

[The Star King]

The same does apply to fastfalls but I don't think that counts as buffering. If you don't press A soon enough you'll do a midair jump, so it's probably just pressing A before the stick goes far enough to input a stick jump but is far enough to count as an uair.

 

[Sempiternity]

You really think you're just catching the stick halfway to it's "tap" motion?

It's not some sort of timing thing similar to smash attacks?

I smell a TAS...

 

[Sangoku]

I think if you smash and press a on the same frame, you don't jump. I thought that was common knowledge, so maybe I didn't understand what you were talking about.

 

[asianaussie]

they're talking about how long you have after pressing/jabbing 'up' that you can press A in and not get a jump

on keyboard i would be surprised if you had more than one frame, controller probably depends

 

[Sempiternity]

Seems like one frame is a bit strict, considering how easy it is to pull it off if you make a conscious effort.

 

[Sangoku]

No no, aa is right. On keyboard, it HAS to be the same frame. And concerning the joystick, I see two cases:
- you smash quick enough (full tilt between two frames), then it's a keyboard situation, ie 1 frame.
- you don't smash quick enough (which is more reasonable) and then again there's two situations:
---- you catch it half-way like SK said.
---- say you need to tilt to 55 to jump. At one frame, you're at 50, then the next frame you've pushed to 60 AND pressed "a" at the same time. Then it's again a keyboard situation.

Not sure if I'm making myself clear (going to bed soon ^^), but this is just logical thinking, I didn't test anything (except for the keyboard one frame thing). Also 55 is hypothetical, I have no idea what it has to be to jump.

Edit: wow it's actually 53, I wasn't too far off.

Edit2: And for the random data freaks, a utilt/uair is from 20. Therefore, you have a range of 33 (from 20 to 53) to utilt/uair.

Spoiler

framedatapost

 

[Sempiternity]

Ohoho thank you!

So realistically with a joystick, provided you don't smash too quickly, you actually have a few frames depending on how quick you are.

Any idea what the max range is? Just trying to get an idea of what 53 actually means.

Also, how fast do you have to smash? Is there a certain frame window that the input to 54+ needs to happen in order for a tap to register?

Obviously, if you go slowly from neutral to max, you won't jump, and I'm just wondering where that cutoff is.

 

[Sangoku]

Max range depends on your settings (on emu). I think the theoretical max is 128.

Don't know what the value is for console.

Okay, sorry for the multiple edits but here are some more precisions:
-you have 2 frames to go from >20 (tilting position) to 53 (jumping). This means you can go like: 25, 50, 53. Or 52, 52, 53.
-you can wait all you want at <20 (non tilting position). For example: 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 25, 50, 53.

Edit (lolagain): dashing's threshold is 56 and only allows one intermediary step, for example 20, 56. By the way, there's no equivalent to the non tilting position (the <20 one), since you walk at any range (except if you're lower than the deadzone).


Last edit: THAT'S ALL FOR TODAY, NOW I'M REALLY GOING TO BED.

Spoiler

framedatapost

 

[Sempiternity]

Damn, thanks again! Very helpful and interesting. So the game actually gives you some room to breathe (lol one frame) when performing U-airs. Cool to know.

More questions: I'm sure this is somewhere, but how many frames do you have after tapping to perform a smash attack? Because it's certainly possible to actually dash sideways about a fourth or so of your initial dash and still manage to complete the smash attack.

And I dunno if you saw my request before, but do you have frame data on how long each character takes to leave the ground when jumping? Trying to get an idea of the ease of shorthopping with each character.

Thanks!

 

[TalosSSB]

you can buffer a lot of things with a lot of things

but you cannot buffer upwards when fast falling unless you have used your jump(s) already, or if you are in an attack animation

if that's not what you mean then idk what you're saying

You can indeed buffer fast fall for uair.

 

[asianaussie]

i have no idea what you're trying to say, to be quite honest

 

[Sempiternity]

You can indeed buffer fast fall for uair.

why are you even here

 

[Sangoku]

You can indeed buffer fast fall for uair.

If you're dashing left, you can also buffer left before making a dash attack. The same goes if you're walking left, you can buffer left to tilt. Don't know if it works for right, maybe a good TASer could confirm this. If the CO2 partial pressure raises in your blood, phosphate, ammonia and other things will buffer the change in pH.


Semp: I'll test all that this evening.

 

[The Star King]

Wow, this discussion has prompted me to research platform drop uairs on keyboard a little, and I've figured out something I've been wondering about for years: why I seemingly had a much easier time learning to do platform drop uairs/fastfall uairs consistently on keyboard than anyone else.

I tried to teach a couple of keyboard players, SilentSlayers and th3kuzinator, how to platform drop/fastfall uair with my method, where I roll from down -> up -> A. But they had a hard time learning what I found easy, with SilentSlayers claiming it's ridiculously hard to do it consistently. That's because Sangoku's right, it's a 1 frame timing (except apparently kuz mastered the 1 frame method lol that guy).

I thought the cause of this difference in difficulty might be a controller plugin issue, since NRage definitely feels different than Jabo for keyboard, somehow. But no, it turned out I can do platform drop/fastfall uairs consistently with either plugin.

I've discovered the reason now. You know how some keyboards can't reset a match, because if A + B + Z + R are pressed they do not all register at the same time? Some key combinations "interfere" with each other, so that some of the inputs are not registered. Well, if I press down + up + A they "interfere" with each other, and up/a don't do anything. So when I let go of down, all of a sudden the interference stops and up + A are inputted the moment down is let go. So it's basically a guaranteed method of inputting up and A on the same frame. Yeah.

P.S. After switching controller and trying out keyboard for the first time in a while, I can fairly consistently do the one frame method, which I was horrible at before my controller switch. WTF? Kind of how like I randomly started L-canceling in Melee after I gave up on Brawl, even though I didn't L-cancel before.

P.P.S. Type this post, finish it later. Wasn't submitted because "the token has expired. Press back, reload the page and try again." EFF. Presses back. Reloads. Types again. "...the token has expired". FFFFFUUUUU-

 

[Sangoku]

So if we sum up, you find that easy because you have a cheater keyboard .

On my keyboard if I do your technique, I automatically jump.

 

[Sangoku]

So short hopping frame window is 3 for every character. Oo.

Fsmash is 4 with any char.

Dsmash is 3 with any char.

Usmash depends on how long the jumping animation is.

Conclusion: the statement "you perform short hopping by letting go on the c button before the end of the jumping animation" is wrong.

Spoiler

framedatapost

 

[kys]

Another reason to hate on the keyboard players

 

[asianaussie]

There was a 3 month period in which I had the 1 frame method consistent lol

And then life happened.

 

[The Star King]

So if we sum up, you find that easy because you have a cheater keyboard .

On my keyboard if I do your technique, I automatically jump.

I guess but I didn't know/not my fault. At least I'm not one of those homos who go 100 range on NRage for maximum keyboard DI hax

Knowing me I probably would have learned the one frame method without my "cheater keyboard" anyways

 

[Morin0]

What kind of keyboard do you have so we can ban it at tournaments?

 

[Sempiternity]

So short hopping frame window is 3 for every character. Oo.

Fsmash is 4 with any char.

Dsmash is 3 with any char.

Usmash depends on how long the jumping animation is.

Conclusion: the statement "you perform short hopping by letting go on the c button before the end of the jumping animation" is wrong.

OOOOOOOO

That's really fascinating, actually. I had always sorta felt certain characters like Falcon were easier to shorthop with than, say, Link, but I guess that's just not true!

I had also always felt the U-Smash window was a little too long, especially when trying to do a stick hop instant U-air.

 

[Luco]

According to smash 64, Link from Ocarina of time and link from Link to the Past are one and the same. (when you look down the bottom and it shows the games they're in, I'm pretty sure it's those two that come up, can verify if needed) Or something. Can't remember whether it's supposed to be like that in the link timeline or not though. ><

 

[asianaussie]

Adult Link (whom the model is based off) never had the boomerang for use in OoT, so I'm more inclined to believe it is an amalgamation of every Link.

Don't bring up TP Gale Boomerang as an argument.

 

[Luco]

Thats also possible, however you'd think it would also include the original LoZ down at the bottom. Some of the others have 3 games down there, why not this one?

 

[asianaussie]

Uh...my game *does* have the NES game listed.

 

[Luco]

Oh, then I may well be wrong. Does it have all three there? Just curious. I'm basing this one off memory heh. :I

Oops, looks like I have to go! I hyave no time. ><


I'll talk to ya later ^^

 

[TalosSSB]

Did you guys know jigglypuffo's nair has longer forward hitbox then falcon punch!

 

[Sempiternity]

Falcon Punch has an awful, horribly small hitbox. Doesn't even cover the entirety of the Falcon.

Terrible move to approach with, really.

 

[Sangoku]

Sometimes running into the opponent, then short hopping backward and Falcon punch can work. Very gimmicky, but made my opponent ragequit last time I did it lol.

 

[SSBPete]

Falcon Punch has an awful, horribly small hitbox. Doesn't even cover the entirety of the Falcon.

Terrible move to approach with, really.

it doesn't even cover the entirety of the falcon punch

but that only makes it 15 times cooler when you land it

 

[cmu6eh]

I am surprised no one mentioned that Luigi's taunt does damage. My favorite thing to do after a shield break.

 

[M!nt]

 

[The Star King]

It's pretty well-known so nobody bothered posting it.

 

[Morin0]

Why didn't you just post your avatar?

 

[B Link]

I can't find the video of the link hitting luigi in the box of death at Hyrule, showing how momentum can stay after a hit (the luigi does an upb and slides left across hyrule) -- nevertheless, if you know what I'm talking about, you may enjoy knowing that this also works for yoshi's down B.

Ness still receives the knockback of the Giant Punch, despite being hit by the bumper afterwards.

Somewhat related: Ness' 'hit himself' upb goes through DK's fully charged B (I'm pretty sure it was fully charged; I never asked my opponent though, we just laughed at it).

 

[SSBPete]

momentum sliding can happen with any attack im pretty sure

 

[The Star King]

Yeah the momentum staying is not caused by somebody using an attack or something. So of course the momentum will stay with Luigi up-B, Yoshi down-B, whatever. Unless there's an attack that cancels all momentum, which is possible (Game and Watch bucket in Brawl)

And you know Ness's PK Thunder2 has "parry" frames right? Not really related to that quote.