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Simple Effective Melee Advice

forward

Smash Champion
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That's why after you find something that works you switch back to playing to win to learn to implement it. After you learn that something is good and that something works you then play normal, in my case normal is play to win, to make sure you know when to do it.
Also, define stepping up your game, or the process one goes about stepping up their game. To me "stepping up your game" would be this learning process in which you analyze, experiment, and eventually implement which is playing to learn.
That's why after you find something that works you switch back to playing to win to learn to implement it
LOL, Mookie you are talking yourself in a circle here. I read that as "After you find something by playing to learn you switch back to playing to win that way you can learn how to win."

After you learn that something is good and that something works you then play normal, in my case normal is play to win, to make sure you know when to do it.
You have just stated clearly that this new thing you learned is good and it works. There is no need to switch back to playing to win because you already know how to make your new tactic work effectively.

Also, define stepping up your game, or the process one goes about stepping up their game. To me "stepping up your game" would be this learning process in which you analyze, experiment, and eventually implement which is playing to learn
Would you not be analyzing your own match during a tournament game? If your current tactics weren't winning a tournament match would you not experiment with something different? If you would then I guess that means we are "playing to learn" even in tournaments, which I always thought was the very definition of when we should be playing to win.

This whole "playing to learn" is nothing but bull****. It's only an excuse not to win.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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"After you find something by playing to learn you switch back to playing to win that way you can learn how to win."
You have just stated clearly that this new thing you learned is good and it works. There is no need to switch back to playing to win because you already know how to make your new tactic work effectively.
So I'm just gonna assume the exact moment you learned how to wavedash that you immediately knew when was the best time to use it? It's different when you discover something that works and when you fully know how to use it. That's all I'm saying.

Would you not be analyzing your own match during a tournament game? If your current tactics weren't winning a tournament match would you not experiment with something different? If you would then I guess that means we are "playing to learn" even in tournaments, which I always thought was the very definition of when we should be playing to win.
Yes, I analyze my matches in my head AS I am playing and AFTER I am done. There is something VERY VERY different between thinking about it and actually watching a video of the match. That is your memories and everything are SUBJECTIVE. You only see what you thought you saw cause that is all you can see SUBJECTIVELY. A video is not subjective, it's objective. Everything that happened is there, unchanged, and ready to be viewed multiple times. Are you seriously saying that watching a video isn't effective? If it wasn't effective how come people in professional sports constantly analyze their play this way?

This whole "playing to learn" is nothing but bull****. It's only an excuse not to win.
Only people who choose to use this as an excuse are full of ****. Not the people who are seriously trying to improve their game using more up to date and just strictly better training methods. If you really think that simply playing constantly without any training tools or strategy other than "I got to beat this dude" is the only true way to get better at a game, then you truely aren't using everything at your disposal, and you aren't truely doing a good job at playing to win.
 

TheCatPhysician

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The way I see it, playing to learn is ultimately playing to win, and so you can say that playing to learn doesn't exist if you want. When you play to win, like in an important match, you aren't going to try anything new that you aren't sure will work or not. In these matches, you do your best by only doing things you know to work. You don't take risks. But if one of your friends is just better than you, and you can't beat him, then using this kind of play to win isn't going to get you anywhere. You will only do things you know to work, but you simply don't know enough. So you need to experiment to know more things, and this is where I think the confusion is. You can say this is playing to learn, because you're not playing to win at the time, because playing to win means no taking risks. BUT, doing this experimenting is still playing to learn, because you just don't know enough to beat your friend, and this is the only way you can get better and win.

So it's just the difference between playing to win a single match, and playing to win overral. So once again, if you play to win every single match, you will never learn anything new because playing to win a match means not taking any risks, and only doing things you KNOW will work. If you simply can't beat someone until you learn new things, then by playing to win every match, you are actually playing to lose. So you're both right, it's just you're looking at different definitions of playing to win.

That's the way I see it, at least.
 

forward

Smash Champion
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Cat Physician I would agree. It's kinda like what came first, the chicken or the egg. All the training methods Mookie is speaking of are tools you are using to help you win. Ultimately, everything you do to improve is to help you win.

However if you think you don't take risks in tournaments than I must say you have a thing or two to learn.

Mookie: I never spoke of watching vids or going to training mode or things like that. So I don't know exactly why you are bringing that up. But in anycase, those are ways to help you win. If you are serious enough to study matches like that then you want to win.

Regarding WD: People used to debate the usefulness of wavedashing, some would say it doesn't even matter. So to call a new move or technique such as wavedashing "good" or to claim that it "works" when you know nothing about it is foolish. And to this day people still will wavedash incorrectly such as doing it at the wrong times. Nobody fully knows anything in this game, not you, not me, not even ken. Our game play ALWAYS needs improvement, and the best way to find out where you need improvement in your game is by playing to win.
 

TheCatPhysician

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However if you think you don't take risks in tournaments than I must say you have a thing or two to learn.
I just meant in important matches. I know tournaments are really great opportunities to test things out and everything, especially just playing friendlies with everyone, because there are a lot of experienced players. But in important matches, like finals or big money matches, I would think you wouldn't want to be trying out new things that you don't know to work.

Edit - Anyways, I'm glad we came to an agreement on that, and I hope that settles the whole issue. I guess we all thought the same thing from the start, we just had different definitions of playing to win/learn, so we got confused.

And I read that part of your post again about experimenting in a tournament match when your tactics are failing, so I see what you were talking about when you said you should take risks in tournaments. Well, I was thinking of something different, like if you can't beat your friend and yet you know that you can get better by, say, incorporating wavedashing into your style. You'll have to learn it by just playing in actual matches, and it's pretty much guaranteed to make you worse at first, so you aren't exactly playing to win those first matches because you'd be better off without wavedashing if you just want to win those particular matches. But it's all part of playing to win in the long run, because ultimately incorporating this skill into your play will make you better. As for the situation where your tactics are failing in a tournament match, then I guess you would want to experiment and try to find something if you know you can't win otherwise; that would be the best course, in terms of playing to win. But I was mainly thinking about noobs for this, I guess because I have a friend I'm trying to teach to play who still needs to learn the basic advanced techniques. From his perspective, he loses every match, and trying to incorporate a new skill is only going to decrease his chances of winning the match even further.
 

Scintillatedseed

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Truly awesome stuff. You've got hte insight of an experienced smasher and have thought on or expanded on much of the things I've htought on. You're one of the few great contributers to this site.

As for the matter of playing to win or playing to lose. I would actually think playing to win does improve your game. I think it's the matter of learning to deal with pressure. Playing ot learn is more enjoyable really, and you have to balance that out with playing to win. You cna't excessively play to win and actually enjoy the game, or you'll just begin to get bored and lose the motivation to actually play. It's a game afterall, it may just come to you that the effort isn't worth it. Or you may not have enough motivaitno, you may not want to win badly enough. Not as badly as other players at least.

For example, say an amateur and Ken was going to a tournament. The difference b/w the two other than skill is a motivations and a mindset. Ken knows he can win and has all that's necessary to win. Ken also has something more to lose, his reputation, the cash price, humilation, etc. It' s a different story for ken then the amateur so he'll do even mro to try to win. He may push himself harder.

Playing to win and playing to learn must be balanced, you can't play to win all the time and still enjoy the game or want to try new things unless you truly have nothing else to do. There are many interesting things to do in life. Playing to win all the time stagnates the game or makes it boring. You have to keep in mind that when you're playing to learn, that you're playing to learn to win, nto just playing to learn new things. But playing to win means adapting, changing, taking risks, refocusing. It's a matter of not stagnating your progress. Just sometimes when people "play to win" they play to win and end up losing becuase they only did "tried and true" things whne mindgames and the other player progresses and evolves. You must let yourself evolve. Essentially you're quibbling over semantics it seems.
 

forward

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I think it goes like this:

While playing to win, try to find new ways to win.
I think I had it when I said this. But then Mookie had to take what I said and add a "play to learn" in front of it when he said "after you find something by playing to learn you switch back to playing to win that way you can learn how to win."

CatPhysician: Once again, you're wrong. If you are playing an important match, giving it your all, and you're all isn't working, you're gonna have try something new.

Scint: What you called "tried and true" wasn't really true because he lost. Nothing in this game is "true," and it was proved when he played to win.

Anyways I'm done here, I've proved my point and don't need to prove any further. People don't even know what they are saying and are bringing up things I'm not even arguing. Probably because they are losing the current arguement.
 

TheCatPhysician

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CatPhysician: Once again, you're wrong. If you are playing an important match, giving it your all, and you're all isn't working, you're gonna have try something new.
No, I got that. Not sure if you caught my edit.

Anyways I'm done here, I've proved my point and don't need to prove any further. People don't even know what they are saying and are bringing up things I'm not even arguing. Probably because they are losing the current arguement.
I hope this isn't directed at me. I was never arguing with you in the first place, in fact I helped by clearing up the misunderstanding. Unless you're talking about the "taking risks in an important match" thing, in which case, consider this: If someone doesn't know a basic thing like wavedashing and they are in an important match and losing, would they want to try and incorporate wavedashing really quick? Of course not, that would just guarantee their defeat. Changing your tactics because they're failing is different, and that obviously has a better chance of helping than trying to learn how to use wavedashing in the middle of the match. So I agree with you there.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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Dangz Forward, why do you have to leave before I have a chance to make one last comment, the one I thing I think we can mutually agree upon.
All the training methods Mookie is speaking of are tools you are using to help you win. Ultimately, everything you do to improve is to help you win. But in anycase, those are ways to help you win. If you are serious enough to study matches like that then you want to win.
You see, that's all I wanted to hear. So far all I've heard from my side is "play to learn is crap, always play to win. you have to step it up, etc. etc." If you really boil it all down, this is all part of play to win. The thing is the competitive gaming community had an excellent and well defined concept of how we should play games in a way that stimulates the growth of the game, but nobody ever defined a training method, or seemingly tried to really discuss affective learning strategies. All I'm trying to establish with play to learn is effective learning strategies to the age old play to win. That's all.
However if you think you don't take risks in tournaments than I must say you have a thing or two to learn.
That is very true. When I said that one needs to play to win in serious matches and not bother with learning I never meant that you shouldn't experiment if things aren't working.

In the beginning, when you first started posting here Forward, I thought we could come to terms with how we saw things. After posting and posting we both seemed to get a little bit stubborn about our views. Ultimately you chalk everything up in play to win, which technically is true, what you do to learn is helping you get better and thusly help you win. I just wanted to throw something new out there to people who misunderstood play to win, who thought that play to win means only trying to win, never taking chances (trust me there are lots of peepz like that). Since you already knew the importance of learning in play to win it all seemed arbitrary to you, but most people don't think along the same lines as you do, and my "play to learn" stuff would help them out.

Sorry this got somewhat heated, I really do appreciate your contributions to this thread. I want somebody to argue points I make so that I can refine these strategies and improve them even more and make them more universal.
 

AltF4

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You'll have to learn it by just playing in actual matches, and it's pretty much guaranteed to make you worse at first, so you aren't exactly playing to win those first matches because you'd be better off without wavedashing if you just want to win those particular matches. But it's all part of playing to win in the long run, because ultimately incorporating this skill into your play will make you better
I think what this discussion has started to venture into has a strong mathematical background to support it. The one thing everybody agrees upon in this "room" is that we all want to be able to win in the long run. That is, in the end, we are all "playing to win" in that respect. What is being argued about is then only how to achieve that goal of being the best in the long run. It has been suggested by Mookie that perhaps the best way to achieve the goal of being the best is not necessarily to win at all costs in each individual match you play. (The short term.) So let me reiterate that before I go on what will seem like a bit of a tangent to those not familiar with obscure branches of mathematics. The suggestion is that the way to optimize the long term is not necessarily to optimize the short term.

Have you ever seen the movie "A Beautifull Mind"? Well, you should. Not only is is a plain good movie, but it has a lot of insight into a real guy. It is a true story about an award winning mathemetician named John Nash. *semi-spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie* In the film, Nash has a breakthrough in his math work when at a bar. He's there with a bunch of guys and a group of girls walk in and he has an epiphony! He realizes that if they all try to hook up with the hot blonde, none of them will get a date and they all fail. But if they all shoot for something lesser, they will all get a date and all be happy. It was this principle John Nash applied to Game Theory.

Game Theory is a very obscure branch of mathematics that deals witht he behaviors of various systems they refer to as "games". This could be an actual game, like chess, or could be anything like the stock market. What I won't get into is exactly how, but John Nash proved that for any finite game with any number of players, the the long run earnings of the players in that system are not optimized if each player only seeks to optimize the short term. (It approaches what is called the Nash Equilibrium)

So what does that all mean? It means that it has been mathematically demonstrated that the path to long term success in something is not a straight line to it. We already know this to be true of many "games". Think about chess. If you made each and every move based solely on the short term goal of taking enemy pieces, you will surely lose to someone mindfull of "the big picture".

I have a great interest in these things, and I love it when it they pop into conversations I'm in. So there you have it: To maximize long term winnings in any game, do not focus on simply the short term successes, but rather bettering yourself in the long term.
 

Yellow Mage

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Wow

As an up and coming Mathematician and Smasher myself I understand exactly what you're saying (I've even seen that "A Beautiful Mind" movie; pretty sad at parts).

I don't know why, but just seeing all that Mathemtical support all in one place has sort of inspired me into an epiphany of understanding. This computer can not express the feelings of my thoughts.

Once again, thank you. Thank you all, AltF4, Mookie, Forward, and everybody.
 

King Kong

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The best part of reading this thread has been the arguments between Forward and MookieRah, since they both have good points.

But I can see where Mookie is coming from. If im having friendlies at a meet and I decide that I want to start finding new ways to lead into the Giant Punch then im gonna stop going for easy edgeguards and cheap kills and start trying out new setups and tricks to lead into the punch.

If after playing a number of matches that I found that I could follow a tech with a D-air which at mid percents on floaties would set up for the punch, then i'd remember which situations it can work in and commit it to memory. Then when playing a normal game i'd be trying to apply this new technique whenever possible. After a time i guess it becomes lodged in the back of your head and you are able to apply it without really thinking about it, and it becomes one more technique you can use

anyways thats how i understand 'playing to learn'

this is a really good thread Mookie, i've learned a lot

peace out
 

cowboyardee

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Good thread
As to the playing to learn/win debate, I don't think the two are all that far removed.
When you play to win, there should always be some small element of experimentation (that will often come off as randomness to some) to prevent predictability and open up possibilities in the match.

And when playing with a primary goal of improving/learning, you should ALWAYS be playing to win, albeit doing so with strategies you are unfamiliar with. You don't simply try a strategy/move, get KO'd and repeat in the same circumstances 4 times. You alter your timing or application of when you use said move/strategy and try to make it work and win, making note of what situations favor the new strategy and what situations don't. You are simultaneously mapping the game and trying to reach your objective (a new advantage that can translate to a win).


It may be a stretch, but I find the subject matter in this article to be pretty analogous.
http://ai-depot.com/Essay/SocialInsects-Ants.html

(warning: It is very interesting, but for geeks only.)
 

Anther

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Wow, Mookie, I'm really glad you posted this topic. It really is the mindset that pushes you to the next level. Perfecting tech skill only takes you so far. ajsdf;kj

This topic has pushed my Smash game and surprisingly Tennis game a lot further than I thought they could go in .. 2 weeks? w00t w00t?

I'm now 2 and 3 stocking people that I had trouble against before, and all it took was making sure to take a step back, observe the other players tendacies, and testing out different approaches a little more often. Definately right about breaking through those plateaus. Getting the tech down is just one part of the battle, once you get that, its all about using everything efficiently and concentrating on catching your opponents habits so you're making sure you're exploiting them with all your options. The Positive thinking made the most surprising contribution out of everything though. Not thinking: "Oh lord, don't get hit by his downsmash" or "I can't hit this next ball out," and thinking more about what you're going to do to win somehow gives you this power to go through with it and pull out a good move XD. Yeah... good stuff.
 

Yellow Mage

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I would really like this thread to remain hot and alive, as I may have to MISS my next local tourney because of an out of the blue family visit. . .this stinks. . .the only way that I can avoid having to wait ANOTHER FIVE WEEKS before I can actually PLAY with somebody I CAN LEARN from again is to hope that the place DELAYS the tourney a week.

:urg:
 

AltF4

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Hah, I know how you feel. After going to college it's harder to get together for casual play. So I've just been trying to practice some technical things in training mode that I knew I needed work on. But I only do it for about 30 mins at max, then give it a break for a day.... maybe less. Each time I pick the controller back up it feels more natural, I think it helps.

Btw, juggling is a hobby of mine, and any good juggler will tell you that sleep is incredibly important. I've been told many times not to over-practice. Do the motions as many times as it takes for you to get the concept of what you have to do in your head. Once you understand what you have to do, and how to do it, (and have practiced it mildly) sleep on it. When you try it again when you wake, you'll find that you'll be able to execute the motions more fluidly and precisely.
 

Scintillatedseed

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Scint: What you called "tried and true" wasn't really true because he lost. Nothing in this game is "true," and it was proved when he played to win.
Hence the quotes in my "tried and true", people must realize that there are no absolute strategies that work in the game, because people change. You can not be absolutely well adjusted to all novelty, the human brain juts doesn't work like that. I was referring to the falsity of the "tried and true" when i said that, speaking in a less experienced player's mind, he would assume it to be "tried and true" and the fallacy of that would be his downfall. It's a paradox is what i'm saying.
 

Zodiac

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If only I had heard that when I first started palying techniqal skills in smash, a year ago, I could have had at elast 6 months of good self training before I realized this. all smash newbsm take heed and listen to mookierah's words.
 

MookieRah

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Well, if you are playing with people just enjoy it. It's best to practice tech skill by yourself, and then you don't have to wait 30 minutes per se, but i would wait at least 10-15 minutes.
 

3GOD

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One tech skill I have been working on a little is ledgedashing (wavedashing from hanging on the ledge). I would play around with it for 5 minutes or so - then go chat or play online for 15 to 20 minutes. By repeating this, I am becoming more and more consistent - I think much quicker than if I just kept doing the same tech for 30 minutes straight.
 

Varuna

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Something significantly under noted in this argument is the fact that what Mookie is proposing is a way of thinking while in game, a mind set, a mental algorithm, or a perspective to hold while playing. A harsh summary of what Mookie is saying would be

“While playing, greater improvement in one’s game, and thus, a higher rate of winning (since we are assuming that winning is a function of skill), is possible through a mindset in which the person playing is not so much focused on his current skill set, but on the expansion of that skill set.” Parallel to this statement Mookie also says “ANY expansion to one’s skill set, whether it is a technique, a mind game, a habit etc… is LEARNED and in order for this learning to take place a mental shift from what is already known to what is possible is required.”

Forward started proposing that this mental construct/shift is not the best to have while playing (read: not the most conducive to winning.) Rather, he proposed that the mindset should be one out of necessity, or “Use what works until it doesn’t work, then use something new.” I fail to see how this statement disproves anything of what Mookie has said. And I’m sure I might receive a hasty clarification from Forward himself; but as it stands it would appear that Forward may have something personally against the slogan “play to learn” and not what Mookie means when he says it. Later on in the thread Forward appears to have changed his focus from “playing to learn will not win you games.” To “Really playing to learn is the child of playing to win and since every effort in the game should be directed towards winning (lol) the implied mental state should always come second to the mental state of winning (whichsofar Forward has failed to elaborate on to the extent that Mookie has on his argument).” Nevertheless the main thing I interpret that forward is arguing against is complacency.
|
|
V

The thing is, this mental state of heightened observation and open mindedness should never become so internal as not to reflect what the player observes and recognizes as valid opportunities.

Said in another way it might be that the benefit of being able to recognize these opportunities is nil when (in the context of winning) such opportunities are not exploited.
...
for whatever reasons.


I value both and all opinions in this thread and would hope that it continues to be as educational as it already has been.
 

justice

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I haven't read all of this topic but it has some good points to it and I am still on page 3 so much information to read and articles. But this should be the best thread for today. Oh yeah from some of the matches I say of Mookie Rah showed that you don't have to be a beast to beat someone but have the ability to fool your opponent especially his marth combo video. Lol how was dancing at the end with you.
 

forward

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Forward started proposing that this mental construct/shift is not the best to have while playing (read: not the most conducive to winning.) Rather, he proposed that the mindset should be one out of necessity, or “Use what works until it doesn’t work, then use something new.” I fail to see how this statement disproves anything of what Mookie has said. And I’m sure I might receive a hasty clarification from Forward himself; but as it stands it would appear that Forward may have something personally against the slogan “play to learn” and not what Mookie means when he says it. Later on in the thread Forward appears to have changed his focus from “playing to learn will not win you games.” To “Really playing to learn is the child of playing to win and since every effort in the game should be directed towards winning (lol) the implied mental state should always come second to the mental state of winning (whichsofar Forward has failed to elaborate on to the extent that Mookie has on his argument).” Nevertheless the main thing I interpret that forward is arguing against is complacency.
I don't exactly understand what you are saying here, let me break it down for you.

I decided to post cuz I saw Mookie post "don't play to win, play to learn." I thought it was wrong. The more the arguement went on, Mookie started going off topic (elaborating?) on playing to learn; apparently playing to learn is not just the mindset while fighting an opponent, but it is also analyzing yourself, your opponent, and studying match vids.

I then went on to describe why playing to win is actually playing to learn, and why "playing to learn" tactics are more random, and will lack the deepest understanding.

Mookie tried to use an example from SF, which back fired. Thomas Osaki, the one who never "played to learn" was the best there was, with only one player being slightly better (see: Azen). Azen will chain grab in casuals, he will camp the ledge and go for cheap kills in a casual, is that what you call "playing to learn?"

I'm not expecting to change Mookie's, or anybody's mind. I'm only trying to offer a different perspective, and let other people decide. You can either follow Sirlin and play to learn, or follow Osaki and play to win. You can either follow Mookie and play to learn, or follow Azen and play to win. IMO the choice is simple.
 

justice

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That seems reasonable the choice is up to the player. But to become a clone is not actually becoming a pro? Because I see some players how copies a pro techinique completly or close to it and are pretty good.
 

Varuna

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I decided to post cuz I saw Mookie post "don't play to win, play to learn." I thought it was wrong. The more the arguement went on, Mookie started going off topic (elaborating?) on playing to learn; apparently playing to learn is not just the mindset while fighting an opponent, but it is also analyzing yourself, your opponent, and studying match vids.
Elaborating on a subject does entail discourse of subjects that have a relationship to it. If you would like to provide any particular, specific examples of him ignoring context then I really am interested in seeing them. If Mookie deems "analyzing yourself, your opponent, and studying match vids." as "playing to learn" then I think he is wrong, since all three of those things are kind of hard to do while playing (at least in the intellectual sense). Those things sound more like "learning to play",which would still belong in a topic called "Simple Effective Melee Advice" But I think we should give him a chance to speak before we decide that is really what he is trying to say.

I then went on to describe why playing to win is actually playing to learn, and why "playing to learn" tactics are more random, and will lack the deepest understanding.
"playing to win" = "playing to learn"

"playing to learn" = random tactics that lack understanding.

ergo

"playing to win" = random tactics that lack understanding

yet

"playing to win" > "playing to learn" ?

On the side of this I have a hard time imagining how a play style fashioned to use only "what works" can provide the player with a better understanding of the game than a play style that boast "try everything." You started your argument in the context of winning so its kind of pointless to move its goals now.

I'm sure you intend a valid and perhaps even sound argument with this statement, but you need to refine it more so idiots like me who never even browse MD that much anymore can understand you.


Mookie tried to use an example from SF, which back fired. Thomas Osaki, the one who never "played to learn" was the best there was, with only one player being slightly better (see: Azen).
duly noted!. But keep in mind that this is a very limited example and this topic has an audience of a lot of people trying to simply get "Good" at the game.

Azen will chain grab in casuals, he will camp the ledge and go for cheap kills in a casual, is that what you call "playing to learn?"
Thats a vague statement. We are talking about what happens in the mind, where the only measurable output is skill in the game; that in itself is really hard to measure anyway. We are not talking about the play habits of some professional (however useful they may be when trying to learn how to play) we are talking about the conditions that create an increase in skill of the game. If you want to put the advice "chain grab","camp the ledge",and "go for cheap kills" right next to mookie's advice of "playing to learn" yoube justified and it would go just fine with the title "Simple Effective Melee Advice" but do not propose that the two contradict each other.

I'm not expecting to change Mookie's, or anybody's mind.
You should, you have insightful things to say.


You can either follow Sirlin and play to learn, or follow Osaki and play to win. You can either follow Mookie and play to learn, or follow Azen and play to win.
stop demonizing people you are better than that.
 

cba

Smash Master
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ok but there is a diference between these too.
because you can play to learn. but playing only with
people you know(friends,ect.)

then you play to win with people youve never seen before.

ex; if you go to a tournament and you have to play against
somebody you dont know. are you going to play to learn?

then how are you going to learn how to play
if you only play to win?
 

forward

Smash Champion
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On the side of this I have a hard time imagining how a play style fashioned to use only "what works" can provide the player with a better understanding of the game than a play style that boast "try everything."
Thats a vague statement. We are talking about what happens in the mind, where the only measurable output is skill in the game; that in itself is really hard to measure anyway. We are not talking about the play habits of some professional (however useful they may be when trying to learn how to play) we are talking about the conditions that create an increase in skill of the game. If you want to put the advice "chain grab","camp the ledge",and "go for cheap kills" right next to mookie's advice of "playing to learn" yoube justified and it would go just fine with the title "Simple Effective Melee Advice" but do not propose that the two contradict each other.
Measurable outputs of the mind plus 2 to the 5th power is emcee squared. Dude this isn't college, I had to look up a word from your last post, cut me some slack.

Look at the first quote. You clearly express there is a difference between what works (playing to win), and try everything (playing to learn). Yet in the next quote you claim that doing what works is no different then the advice mookie is giving, playing to learn.

Mookie's advice of playing to learn suggest that you don't go for chain grabs, because you know it works. Instead try throwing them another way and possibly learn a new tech chase or combo. What I'm trying to say is go for the chain grab. If they learn to escape it your chain grab has been beat. If they learn to not get grab then your chain grab has been beat. When you learn to counter their counter your gameplay will improve much more than had you just tried to find new ways to grab, or new ways to throw. This is all I'm saying and it's all I've been saying since the beginning.

stop demonizing people you are better than that.
Great another word I had to look up. I don't understand how comparing Mookie's strategy to Azen's strategy is making anyone look evil.

People rarely change their minds in such debates as these so I could care less if anyone does. This is just my side of the story, take it or leave it.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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"don't play to win, play to learn." I thought it was wrong.
I never said to never play to win, I just said that always playing JUST to beat your current opponent isn't the best path. Who gives a **** if you can beat your neighbor if everyone else can **** you? Why not spend the time you use with your neighbor exploring the game to fully understand and realize concepts of the game in order to improve in the long run, and not worry about whether or not your neighbor wins.

Most people see play to win and think the only way to learn is to constantly beat the **** out of people at a lower level than they are and/or constantly play and be ***** by someone better than them. That simply isn't the best way to learn. You CAN learn that way, but it's not the best. BECAUSE a lot of people misunderstand the true meaning of play to win, and only come out thinking like that, I decided to make this thread. There should be more emphasis on personal advancement through practice and learning. There should be threads talking about effective training methods, and I don't mean your standard n00b threads talking about how they learned to wavedash. There is only an emphasis on the win, and in order to win you have to be good, and in order to be you are gonna have to have learned a lot.

Thomas Osaki, the one who never "played to learn" was the best there was, with only one player being slightly better
I don't see how this backfired on me. He was an awesome player from what you say, but you also admit he wasn't the best. If he wasn't the best, then his strategies weren't working on the guy better than him. Why wasn't he the best? I don't know, but I don't see how analyzing his game and trying to find faults in it would hurt him. Also, what about the other guy, the guy better than him? What was his philosophy?

Azen will chain grab in casuals, he will camp the ledge and go for cheap kills in a casual, is that what you call "playing to learn?"
How does this go against what I have said in the thread? Azen doesn't need to play to learn, or experiment with these things cause he has mastered them to an already uncanny degree. There is no point in NOT doing something simply cause you want to learn something new or improve on something. I never said that one shouldn't chain throw while learning. There is also nothing that says he shouldn't go for easy/cheap kills when the oppertunity presents itself. If you reread what I said about play to learn you will discover that in one should first identify a problem that needs to be addressed. In the case of Azen, what kind of problems does he need to address? I'm sure he isn't perfect and he already knows what it is that needs to be worked on, but it's prolly not something he could learn from any run of the mill smasher, so he has no reason to play to learn on peepz like that.

[edit]
I just saw that Forward made a post ahead of me, but i'm too lazy to go in and address his new post.
[/edit
 

forward

Smash Champion
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You CAN learn that way, but it's not the best. BECAUSE a lot of people misunderstand the true meaning of play to win, and only come out thinking like that, I decided to make this thread. There should be more emphasis on personal advancement through practice and learning. There should be threads talking about effective training methods, and I don't mean your standard n00b threads talking about how they learned to wavedash. There is only an emphasis on the win, and in order to win you have to be good, and in order to be you are gonna have to have learned a lot.
Stop getting so butt hurt, I'm not saying anything about your thread, so stop bringing it up.

You have an Aim convo on your first or second post, telling some guy not to play to win against his friends. You tell him he should be playing to learn instead, that's the only thing I've ever ment to argue with you in the first place. If I ever argued anything else it's because I didn't realize you were trying to argue other things with me.

The guy better then Osaki was Ohara from So Cal, why was he better? No clue.

Analyzing your game play and watching vids and all that stuff has nothing to do with what I've tried to argue. Mooks, your advice is good dude. But watching a video of yourself doesn't have anything to do with your mentality during a match. So why do you keep bringing it up?

How does this go against what I have said in the thread? Azen doesn't need to play to learn, or experiment with these things cause he has mastered them to an already uncanny degree. There is no point in NOT doing something simply cause you want to learn something new or improve on something. I never said that one shouldn't chain throw while learning. There is also nothing that says he shouldn't go for easy/cheap kills when the oppertunity presents itself. If you reread what I said about play to learn you will discover that in one should first identify a problem that needs to be addressed. In the case of Azen, what kind of problems does he need to address? I'm sure he isn't perfect and he already knows what it is that needs to be worked on, but it's prolly not something he could learn from any run of the mill smasher, so he has no reason to play to learn on peepz like that.
You're probably right, I don't think you ever did say don't try to win. I probably misunderstood you. You seemed to argue with my point on playing to win which to me involves things like chain grabbing, cheap kills, etc. So to debate my point is to debate those tactics; which is why I thought you said it's wrong.

However what you say about playing to learn, in the matter of addressing problems. I've said that is what you do when you play to win. Afterall, you have to fix your problems if you want to win right?

All I think then is that Mookie gives weird names to things
 

Varuna

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Look at the first quote. You clearly express there is a difference between what works (playing to win), and try everything (playing to learn). Yet in the next quote you claim that doing what works is no different then the advice mookie is giving, playing to learn.
You created the first example I quoted in the context of a "deeper Understanding of the game" and I made some speculative remark about how you are changing the goal of "playing to win.": winning to "understanding the game better." I was following your parameters in the first bit, not my own.

In the next quote I do say that you could

put the advice "chain grab","camp the ledge",and "go for cheap kills" right next to mookie's advice of "playing to learn" yoube justified and it would go just fine with the title "Simple Effective Melee Advice" but do not propose that the two contradict each other.
I was stating that the advice itself of trying these things might be something that would expand one's game and would rightfully be located in a topic such as this. I never said that they were one in the same, I never even said that what Azen was doing was a part of either playstyle since they can easly be a part of either.

Mookie's advice of playing to learn suggest that you don't go for chain grabs, because you know it works.
It simply doesn't. Trying new things does not require abandoning old ones.

Instead try throwing them another way and possibly learn a new tech chase or combo. What I'm trying to say is go for the chain grab.
What if, in this hypothetical situation, this chaingrab worked to 50% and you went to it every single time completely uncounterable until 50% and then continued with the match, unaware that after that 50% you could switch throws and continue on to 70%. If knew about that extra chaingrab (even if it wasn't a chaingrab but you intuit that if he DIs wrong you could easily get a downsmash in or fool him into doing an early aerial attack.) then you obviously would have LEARNED it; And if you didn't learn it from this site you probably learned from playing.

If they learn to escape it your chain grab has been beat. If they learn to not get grab then your chain grab has been beat. When you learn to counter their counter your gameplay will improve much more than had you just tried to find new ways to grab, or new ways to throw.
I don't see any marginal benefit from waiting for your opponents to get wise to things. Your progress in the game should not be dependant on theirs.

This is all I'm saying and it's all I've been saying since the beginning.
you said several other things of value in this thread and I can quote them if you like.


Great another word I had to look up. I don't understand how comparing Mookie's strategy to Azen's strategy is making anyone look evil.
your were implying your view is superior and insulting Mookie's skill. While skill is a credential in this type of disscussion it is not necessary. and I apologize for my use of language.
 

cowboyardee

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I guess I fall under the "play to learn" camp, but I'm mainly writing this to try to clear up some problems with semantics and application of terms I think people may be having.

I think "playing to learn" has two different ways it can be applied: in terms of technique and in terms of strategy/mindgames.
It is completely obvious (to me anyway) that "playing to learn" should be applied literally in the simplest sense in friendlies when you're talking about technique. In this case, you should play to learn even at the direct expense of playing to win. I'll give you an example:

Say I suck at chainthrowing with marth (which I do, incidentally). Say I miss my grab 85% of the time when my opponent < 35%. So in a tournament (playing to win), if I grab a space animal at 20something percent, I uthrow to utilt to (unsweetspotted) fsmash or something of the sort, because it's guarranteed damage -- better than I would've done with a throw or two before I drop the ball.
But if I'm playing a friendly match (less emphasis on winning), I will attempt the cg, even though I will likely mess it up. Why? Because I know that cging is a superior technique and when else am I gonna practice it? (the comp can't DI; even in training mode on "evade" it follows a predictable formula). This applies to most/all effective techniques. Fsmashing a noob is more effective than missing a short hop and flying over his head, but you need to learn how to shffl eventually and it's best to learn it against real opponents.

The other way to play to learn applies to mindgames/strategies. I think what's confusing here is that playing to learn the mental game and playing to win are usually very similar, and at the highest levels of play are pretty much the same thing. "Playing to learn" is a little less simple and obvious here than it was when you were learning techniques.

For a noob/mediocre smasher, developing the a mental game must involve a certain degree of experimentation. This is because there is much that you don't know about the game. Imagine two noobs, both playing sheik. Noob A always approaches with a dash attack. Noob B always couters by either sheild grabbing or rolling behind noob A. To these two, those are the best options they have (that they know of) and since they're the best known options, it's all they ever do. (This may seem like an extreme example or like one of them will eventually counter the other one and up their level of play. Sadly it probably isn't that unrealistic. We've all encountered people who have been playing this game since its release, think they're great, and do nothing but dash attack and rol and smash. FLT recently beat one such player.) Playing to win involves using the best known strategy at a given time. But playing to learn (mindgames) involves more experimentation. What would happen if, just for the hell of it, noob A decided to jump up into the air and throw a needle during his approach? If he stopped before attacking and tried to see if he could hit noob B after his roll had ended? If he freaking grabbed? Noob A at least would start to improve by experimenting instead of getting stuck in the same infinite loop forever.

Mookie's advice of playing to learn suggest that you don't go for chain grabs, because you know it works.
You can either follow Mookie and play to learn, or follow Azen and play to win.
Now we get to the good or even great smashers. They understand their options very well in most situations. I don't seen anywhere in mookie's advice that advocates avoiding tactics that work. The problem is that playing to learn at a very high level involves playing against high-level opponents and forcing them to react to you thus forcing you to react to them. Your experimentation will come in when presented with a unique or especially deadly strategy that can be countered in several ways, all of them with ups and downs. You will probably have to try a few different ways to play best against said strategy. To do that, you MUST use effective tactics and push your opponent to force you to play in a new or different way. Playing to learn and playing to win at this level look almost exactly the same, with only a small degree of experimentation separating them. If you're playing to learn, you try out all the counters to a new strategy that you think would work and see what works the best. If you're playing to win, you mostly stick with the first one you find that's effective (why risk giving him the upper hand even briefly?) until your opponent pushes you off of it.
Azen is a fine example of not always playing to win -- if he did always play to win, he would counterpick more and abandon many of the lesser characters.
 

Myztek

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Playing to learn should not be done in serious matches. Take your time in friendlies to test the limits of the game and what you can do and get away with.

When it comes to a serious match, play to win. Use what you know works, don't take risks that you think *might* work.

Basically..

Play to learn in casual matches.

Play to win in serious matches.

Because playing to learn will not lead you to victory unless either a) the other person sucks, or b) you get lucky.
 

Varuna

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Because playing to learn will not lead you to victory unless either a) the other person sucks, or b) you get lucky.
That really depends on how fast you learn and how much you already know.

Cowboy you are absolutely right. The line between the two playstyles does blur with higher levels of gameplay. It also begins points out the limitations of both concepts related to these playstyles.

Reality will always be more complicated and im glad you pointed that out.

It would not be unreasonable to assume that after two opponents have equal skill in the game that the victor might be decided by the one who has his mind open enough to see an obscure but geniunely open opportunity.
 
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