Simple Effective Melee Advice

[leviathan_]

Here's more suggestion:


Try ALL of the characters before you "main" a character. Too many people designate a character as their main, because of favoritism or their tier position; that is the wrong atitude imo. So... How did Fumi beat Ken with Yoshi??

 

[MookieRah]

What you don't understand, is that if both players are playing to win, you will be forced to find new ways to win.

No, I understand that. Playing to win will force people to improve. I know that, it's an undisputable fact, the very cornerstone of professional gaming. All I'm saying is that playing to win isn't the most effective way to learn new things. I don't think I have done a good job explaining what exactly Playing to Learn is. Let me give a detailed definition of it:

Playing to learn is a process of analyzing one's play and addressing the problems in it during friendly play. It requires your opponent to be playing to win. When one is in a match he is experimenting with something new or trying to improve on something old. He is only trying to improve ONE thing. In order to get to the experimenting phase he has to identify something worth trying or improving. The experiment phase is not randomly trying to do weird or crazy things.

Someone playing to learn is still trying to win. He in no way is planning to lose. He is simply focussing more attention to a single aspect than he normally would. This, of course, does affect his play, and in most cases it will affect it negatively UNTILL that aspect has improved and becomes second nature. After it becomes easy while focusing attention on it, one needs to switch back to their traditional play to win in order for it to be truely integrated into their play. Once it's fully integrated, one can then focus on another problem and repeat the cycle. Simply put, Playing to Learn is an effective means to reach the next stage after someone has hit a plateau.

Playing to Learn is NOT something one needs to attempt during a competative match. Tournaments and money matches are purely play to win. To dedicate attention to improving in a match that has something on the line is foolish. Playing to Learn isn't something that one should adhere to at all times.

In my opinion, playing to learn is a vital part of the play to win strategy. I really don't think that it's much different from the typical play to win mindset. It might not be any different at all, but I feel as if people don't spend enough time critically analyzing themselves and trying to fix problems, which is why I have expanded on it with Play to Learn. Play to Learn is simply a teaching tool to help you pick up things easier so you will be a better player and help you win.

Try ALL of the characters before you "main" a character. Too many people designate a character as their main, because of favoritism or their tier position; that is the wrong atitude imo. So... How did Fumi beat Ken with Yoshi??

Fumi beating Ken with Yoshi? Ummm... I don't think that is true. There is A LOT of rumors and things going on like that, and most of them are not true. There may be some truth in it, like Fumi beating Ken in a single friendly match, but Ken was not defeated by Fumi in a serious match.

As far as characters are concerned, I say to play whom you are motivated to play, regardless of mains or whatnot. If all the sudden you have an urge to play Samus and it's fun, GO FOR IT. A lot of tech skill and strategies are universal, and different characters excell in different areas. I know from my experience that picking up a new character has only improved my other characters. Keep in mind at a tournament though, that you play with your best, not the most fun, unless you really don't care about winning or your placement.

 

[Frozenserpent]

-Edit-
Here is a wiki article on muscle memory. It doesn't get into effective study methods, only just that to build muscle memory, or in our case fine motor skill, one has to be repetative. I'm having a hard time backing up my claims that short practice session + downtime is a more efficient method of training; however, please try it for yourself and see the results.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

Well, as a former psychology student, I can tell you that modern psychology supports your idea of "short practice session + downtime". In psychological experiments, people that spent the same amount of time studying (with the control group spend their time all in one go and the experimental group spending their time in short bursts) did much better on tests if they spread out their time.

Also, psychology also supports your concept of "if you expect to fail, you will fail." Self-fulfilling prophecies are shown in several studies.


I will also mention that studies suggest that people do better taking the test in the same state of consciousness as when they were studying for it.

In fact, all the tips you mentioned are good tips for getting better at anything in general. It doesn't just apply to melee.

 

[Ironclad]

This is the best thread I've ever seen in melee discussion.

I know from my experience that picking up a new character has only improved my other characters.

I thought I was the only one who experienced this. It's funny, I play Samus in every serious match and probably about 80% of my friendlies, but there are times when I think about picking up a new character. So I go read some guides and such about Marth, Capt. Falcon, Fox, etc. (all the characters I thought about becoming serious with), learn some of the basics, figure out how to do a few technical tricks, experiment with them in some friendlies, that sort of thing.

So far I've always ended up going back to Samus, just because it's so much more comfortable for me, but often times I find myself thinking in new ways because of my experience with the other character. This leads me to realize some vital new piece of the game that I incorporate into my Samus playing. Often times I do this completely without realizing it, I'll just suddenly do much better than I did before without quite knowing why. Other times my friends will start noticing that I'm playing differently, and ask me, "when did you start doing that?"

 

[MookieRah]

In fact, all the tips you mentioned are good tips for getting better at anything in general. It doesn't just apply to melee.

Thanks for backing me up a good bit, although I still want to find actual studies to prove what I know to be true already. Also, a lot of ideas that changed my way of thinking and improving in this game has come from stuff I heard in psychology or read about study habbits. Like you said, these are good for everything, not just melee. If that is the case, why are we stuck in a mindset that doesn't provide the best results? Why stick to such inefficient training methods when there is a plethora of knowledge outside of the smash community that point elsewhere? That's what I'm trying to address in this thread.

This leads me to realize some vital new piece of the game that I incorporate into my Samus playing. Often times I do this completely without realizing it, I'll just suddenly do much better than I did before without quite knowing why. Other times my friends will start noticing that I'm playing differently, and ask me, "when did you start doing that?"

That's exactly what I was referring to. Cause of the fact that you had experience playing a character with different traits you were forced to learn how to adapt to those traits. These traits might have been VERY important to that character, but they exist in every other character to a lesser degree. So by picking up more characters you are increasing your skill with all of your previous characters. Your previous mains don't lose anything from you toying around with a new character.

It is a good thing to realize though, that if you don't use it you lose it. Occasionally play with your previous mains. That way they will stay fresh to you, and maybe you will pick up on the influences that your new character created. That's always fun.

 

[nookrulz]

Yeah just to add on to what you said when you pick up another character, you also learn their weaknesses. You learn what they can deal with well, and what they have trouble against, which you can then ulitize when you go back to playing your main. It really helps with spacing and timing.

 

[ch00]

This is really good stuff Mookie Lately I was giving up the idea that I could play competitive smash because the lack of time to practice. I work +40 hours a week and Im at lawschool at the moment, so I never thought that I could progress in smash while Im on a tight schedule like that. Now I've come to realize that I can still progress and finish my studies. I just need to find the time to play against lots of different ppl and I'll be fine

Thanks a lot for that great piece of advice man..you've helped me out a lot

 

[shoe]

Thanks a lot Mookie, subconsciously I did know this, the only aspect of my gameplay in which I have used this method of improving is thech-chasing. When I played my crew and got a grab I would always go for a situation that requires thech-chasing, for example with Peach vs Falco I could just up-throw to nair him at times, but instead I let him fall down and went for a tech-chased d-smash or regrab. This improved my tech-chasing game a lot, but I never really gave thought to it afterwards because I had my chases at my own required level. Thanks for bringing this up, I will try to implement this technique into improving other parts of my game.

 

[NullVortex]

This is all great advice from one of the best threads seen in melee discussion, but the hard thing about this all is adapting from being reactive to proactive and observational. It is a natural instinct to respond to the situation at hand and let what come as it may, without paying attention to what they habitually do.

For some people, it is easier to become observant from past experience with sports and such, but for newcomers, the ability to learn how to observe, especially under pressure, can be hard. They will focus entirely on staying alive because that is the most pressing issue when under attack. When attacking they just focus on hitting the enemy. The amount of time to learn how to observe almost subconciously is huge. If you have to think about observing the enemy and remembering faults, it will slow you down(supposedly, unless you have a very quick mind). You might sometimes find yourself reverting back to pure reactivity. It would be just like learning a new technique with a learning curve. It will make you worse, then when it becomes second nature, your skill climbs back up.

(This is all opinion based on myself trying to learn observational skills during sparring for tkd. I still haven't succeeded. Feel free to correct me. I'm definitely not a psychology major. If this is all repetative of previous information, I'm sorry. Tell me and I'll edit it.)

 

[McCloud]

Looks like a bunch of common sense stuff, Mookz teh prophet, but at least it's in forum format.

I pretty much have to quote this though...

recrease rapidly

WTF? I wasn't aware recrease was a word?

<33 Mookz

 

[FireBomb]

I like how all of Mookie's posts are like essays. I can feel my brain throb after I finish reading one.
Man, I never really took the time to look at Melee from your angle. GOOD JOB

 

[3GOD]

I can testify to Mookie's training method working.

Last week our matches usually came down to the last stock. Tonight, he was consistently 3 stocking me and occasionally 4 stocking me. He has definitely made a big jump by using the techniques he mentioned in this thread.

Time to focus on observation!

 

[MookieRah]

I'm going to say that I have learned more in the past 3 days than I have in the past 3 months. My tech skill didn't increase at all, yet I have made drastic leap in terms of my play, ALL because of observation. I get more tips, I **** missed techs, standing techs, and a large portion of rolling techs. My edgegurading has gone through the rough based on one new idea (which is simply running off with a fair with Marth). All of these things happen so fast too, and I have so much control over the flow of the match when I establish as much fear as I do now. Once in control and once fear has been established, ones opponent makes even MORE mistakes cause they are too busy focusing on watching out for a tip.

It's a rush, let me tell you. I *may* have just hit pro status. I know that sounds like a hyperbole, but the change truely is immense. A bi-weekly is coming up this weekend, I'll see how I do against some of my peers then and report back.

[Edit]
I just realized the true reason for my improvement. I'm growing my beard out again. It is too mighty for the average man. Grow a beard and your power increases 10 fold, best melee advice EVAR! It even works for women!!!! O_o;;;;
[/Edit]

 

[TheCatPhysician]

Ha, what a coincidence. I ran off the edge with a fair with Marth like that a few days ago, something I did without thinking because I was used to Sheik I guess. To my surprise, and my friend's too, it ended up working.

I'm glad for you, sounds like you are having a lot of fun getting better suddenly. Sounds a lot like my other post in this thread a while back, except I'm probably not at the semi-level pro to begin with. You should record some matches of your new awesomeness.

 

[MookieRah]

I want to, and would be capable of it if I could get my VCR down here, which I will. I'm wanting to make a sequal to By the Sword of Ken, my quirky lil Marth vid I put out about a year ago. Thinking of calling it By the Sword of Ken Two: Mookie Is Actually GOOD Now!!!!

[Edit: New thought]
I was talking to 3GOD on AIM earlier and something came up that needs to be addressed. It's about habbitual play and breaking it. There are a lot of good habbits in melee, but there are TONS of bad things. You want to avoid obvious patterns in your play and keep throwing out different things. These habbits can be relatively easy to spot, although some you won't notice untill a friend mentions is or you analyze some videos. The thing is A LOT of people go through the motions. They basically treat a human player as they would a computer, and use the same combos and setups all the time, never changing or mixing it up much. This is REAL easy to pick up on, and a good player WILL pick up on this pretty fast.

Breaking habbits are a lot harder than making them I'm afraid. To break a habbit you are going to have to focus on not doing it in matches. Some habbits are hard to break, others relatively easy. Just focus on one thing at a time and stick with it and you will be alright.

I rarely longer go into a combo or a strategy based purely off habbit. I see tendencies. It's hard to explain, cause these kinds of thoughts run through my head real fast, but it's not all that complicated. I don't break down each individual move, I know an array of things I have to choose from and I pick what I think has the highest chance for success. Kenshin, an ollld school Texas smasher referred to this as a "toolbox", which is a great analogy. If my choice works, then it set up for something. At that point it becomes intuition and following DI.

Most habbits are formed when you are playing people who respond identically to most situations, or when you train uneededly in training mode. You shouldn't have one option for any given situation, you should have plenty. Once you have many options and aren't stuck into doing one over and over habbitual play isn't a problem any more.

 

[paranoia1]

I also find that 5-10 minute blocks are more effective for me. Its just more fun. If i am Smashing by myself for any longer than that I get bored and it feels like a chore which creates a dissonance between your mind and smash. Looking at it on a more specific level, "neurons that fire together wire together". If you are often smashing while not enjoying it, the next time you play you will trigger those same feelings making the game less fun. When you're having fun with the game you are more creative and less likely to fall into bad habits. Its like learning an instrument.. play it to have fun. Against other people you can play for much longer because most smashers find competition fun. Just a thought..

 

[MookieRah]

"neurons that fire together wire together".

Somebody has been whatchin some "What the Bleep do we Know." Oddly enough I saw that film shortly before I started this thread, although, I don't think I pulled many inspirations from it.

 

[forward]

Playing to learn is a process of analyzing one's play and addressing the problems in it during friendly play. It requires your opponent to be playing to win. When one is in a match he is experimenting with something new or trying to improve on something old. He is only trying to improve ONE thing. In order to get to the experimenting phase he has to identify something worth trying or improving. The experiment phase is not randomly trying to do weird or crazy things.

So what you are saying is you are trying to fix the problems you have when you play? Well what exactly do you classify as a problem? I would say a problem is something that prevents you from winning. If you are trying to fix this problem then you are playing to win.

Say you are trying "learn" new combos. The only reason you would try is because your current combo is not good enough, so you try to do a better one to win. In the end, you are still playing to win. If you want to get better, PLAY TO WIN.

 

[MookieRah]

Yes, ultimately the learning process is there so you can get better and in essence perform better at tournaments. It's a part of playing to win. However, all the talk behind play to win rarely included things such as training methods, learning to observe, stages of improvement, plateaus and etc. These are things that happen, but Sirlin and others have never addressed them. He focuses on discovering new tactics, but also that you should do everything in your power to win at all times. If you are so focused on winning ALL THE TIME it makes it very hard to learn.

Also, a lot of people misunderstand the play to win mentality in general. They don't understand the importance of analyzing their play and fixing problems. They believe if they just play to win it will all work itself out sometime. Simply put, people spend too much time training in single player and trying to beat their friends, and not enough time training against friends and analyzing their play. This is something MOST smashers don't do, but I know of some smashers who did. Azen and Anden used to record matches and watch the tapes. I know this cause I watched a tape of theirs WITH Anden at MY HOUSE a few years ago when I first started playing and we hosted the Tupelo tournament. We would watch matches but Anden would constantly point out mistakes that he and Azen made and make comments like "I can't believe I do that all the time!!!" I wish I could have realized the importance of analyzing play there when it was so evident and blatantly in my face.

All in all, play to learn is a part of the play to win strategy when you get right down to it. It's focus is learn as quickly and as efficiently possible so that when a real match comes up you will be the victor. Rather or not this is fundamently different from the play to win strategy isn't the point, the point is that we, as a community, we should shift more of our focus on learning and improving, because the pros know this stuff already, and if we want our community to be more developed this information should be known.

 

[MookieRah]

I re-read Sirlin's articles on play to win, and he dabbles a bit into what I'm talking about. He actually refers to what I'm talking about as Play to Learn as well (and subconsciously this probably had some influence on this entire topic, although it was over a year ago that I read his articles.)

Here is the section of the 3rd part of his Play to Win article that illustrates what I have been discussing.

Playing to win and playing to learn are often at odds. If you play the game at hand to maximize you chances of winning, then you won’t take the unnecessary risks of trying out new tactics, counters, moves, patterns, or whatever. Playing it straight is the best way to win the game at hand, but at the cost of valuable information about the game that you may need later, and valuable practice to expand your narrow repertoire of moves or tactics.

Here’s a simple example from Street Fighter. Let’s say I know for a fact that one split second from now my opponent will do a particular "super move." To win the game at hand, the smartest thing to do is just block the move, but that doesn’t teach me a whole lot. How invulnerable is his super move, anyway? Could I have stuck out an early kick that would knock him out of his super? Or could I have waited for the "super flash" to happen (signifying the beginning of his super move) and then done an invulnerable dragon punch 1 frame later? Maybe my invulnerability will last longer than his and I’ll knock him out of it. Maybe his will always win. That’s valuable information to have for the time when you have zero energy and the opponent forces you to block the super move and die. This situation will happen in the tournament, so you better know what your options are.

Very often in "casual play" I will forgo the safe option in order to try possible counters to certain moves. Even if I lose a game when a possible counter turns out not to work, the knowledge gained is well worth it, since I’ll never make that particular mistake again (I hope!). If you really want to play to win, you have to know all the options open to you at every moment, and that doesn’t happen without a lot of disastrous experiments.

This concept applies to pretty much any game, of course. "Will my 6 corsairs really beat his 12 mutalisks in StarCraft?" Or, "I know I have the flak cannon, but will the shock rifle combo work just as well around corners in Unreal Tournament?" You will never know unless you try it.

This is exactly what I was refering to, as in how Play to Win isn't the best way to learn. The Play to Win strategy is very very broad, and Sirlin never actually went in depth as to the fastest way to learn. He never talked about learning much at all. He simply stated that people who play to win will find and develope the necessary skills to win. So in essence, playing to learn is a part of the play to win strategy. The part that Sirlin never really addressed, but is equally important. His articles were simply saying that you shouldn't give yourself limitations, if you can do it, do it and win. Play to win. In order to win though, one must learn, and in order to learn, one must play to learn AND play to win.

I'm tempted to gather all the information I have made in this thread and write up an article about it and sending it to Sirlin and seeing what he has to say about it.

 

[maelstrom218]

I think the issues that tend to hold smashers back (i.e. elements that force them to remain on their plateaus) can generally be classified as follows:

1) People are too competitive, and insist on Playing to Win instead of experimenting with new tactics.

Competitive people don't like losing. Therefore, they'll stick to whatever strats will allow them to win, which reinforces habitual behavior, whether good or bad. If they win constantly, they'll have ingrained habits. If they don't win, they may or may not be forced to examine new styles/mindgames/stratgies of playing. And obviously, ingrained habits are bad, because they make you more predictable, and less formidable a smasher.

2) People are stuck in habits as a result of Playing to Win, or because of "The Right Thing to Do."

Basically, habitual actions can result from Playing to Win, as described in 1). However, habitual actions can also result from adhering to "The Right Thing to Do." After beginner/intermediate players start to become more competitive, they'll realize, either from watching metagame vids or from reading FAQs, that some characters have preset combos/approaches/strategies. Like CF's constant shffl'd n-airs to facilitate approach. Or Marth's shffl'd f-airs to juggle/approach.

So, instead of trying to take a proactive approach to playing (i.e. trying to anticipate what the opponent will do, or forcing the player to fall back on predictable instinctual impulse), smashers simply do the "right thing"--using whatever move/technique/strat is considered good for that character. Which is dangerous, because it stunts the learning process and makes you predictable.

3) People are stupid and lazy.

Like me, for instance. Believe it or not, proactively thinking during a match is IMMENSELY difficult. It takes way too much effort, so I usually don't try. Instead, I just go into auto mode and rely on pre-set strats that I've programmed into myself in Training Mode. It's a horrible thing, really.

 

[SPAWN]

Wow, excellent posts MookieRah. They really encouraged me. Thank you.

 

[Pit 42]

You make some good points. Positive rep for you.

 

[MookieRah]

I have wrote up an article on play to learn and have posted it on Sirlin's new message board. How convenient!! Sirlin will undoubtably see and respond to my thoughts, which will undoubtly bring more clarity and input in the long run. If you want to view the article go here:
http://www.sirlin.net/forums/showthread.php?p=7#post7

I may post this directly later, but right now I don't feel like it.

 

[forward]

Well I would have to disagree with Sirlin in some ways. IMO you won't be missing out on new strategies, traps, and combos if you're playing to win, especially not in smash. You're best combo may not be the best combo because you're opponent will learn to DI it better. So you will be forced to try new combos to win.

Also, if you are playing to win, and are forced to improve, you will be improving your best, winning tactics. IMO these would be most the most beneificial things to improve.

The way I see it, "playing to learn" is a scapegoat for people who don't feel like trying to win, because playing to win takes a LOT of effort.

My 2 cents, you can disagree, we're only saying the same things back and forth. Just 2 different mentalities.

 

[MookieRah]

Oh, well i'll just make a few comments on what you said, I still think we could reach some kind of neutral ground.

Play to win is definitely what you employ after you have integrated something, even from my play to learn strategy. Most of my matches are still play to win. I'm through with the experimentation stage of some of my earlier ideas and there is no need to "learn" them anymore. When there is nothing left to learn then there is no need for the "play to learn" mindset, and if you are at the top of the metagame you basically know all there is to know and the only thing left is simply refining it. In your case this is pretty much true, there is very little left for you to learn, thusly you are constantly refining what you know. To not play to win in that situation is to be wasting time. All I'm saying is that not everyone on the boards is at your level, so thusly playing to learn would be very effective for them.

I definitely can see people johning with the excuse of "well I only lost because I was trying to implement so and so." In which case yeah, that's just gay. *******s and idiots span the gammot of mentalities, and this would be an easily employed excuse. When it comes down to it different people learn things differently and some ways are easier for some people and what not. For you this kinda stuff could be unecessary *shrug*, I have no idea how you work and how you improve. Still though, someone who heeds my advice entirely would be putting in A LOT of effort as well.

Maybe this hypothetical example will help get my point across.

Say Smasher A was an up and coming smasher. He happened upon this thread and was intrigued with it quite a bit. Smasher B, his friend and another up and coming smasher, doesn't give a ****, all he cares about is pwning everybody.

Smasher A applies the training method I mentioned for building tech skill. He spends about an hour or so every day, off and on, practicing tech skill.

Smasher B plays for hours on end drilling the same techniques into the ground all in one session every day.

Smasher A and Smasher B play each other, both having improved in tech skill. Smasher A opts to record the match so he can study it, again, B doesn't care.

Smasher A takes the tape back to his house and compiles a list of things he can fix. Smasher B remembers a few things that he could improve.

Smasher A plays Smasher B later and implements a few things he noticed in his videos. He lost a majority of the matches, but he learned a good bit. Smasher B rememberd the few things from before, and tried to implement them; however, his main and utter focus was to beat Smasher A.

Now, after a period of time, with both players putting in a lot of work. Do you think A will not surpass B at some point because he can analyze the matches and spends more time learning how to implement these techniques and strategies more? This is assuming that both A and B started being completely even (an impossibility i know), and that B never goes through the hassle of objectively viewing his matches, but only subjectively remembering his matches.

Keep in mind that A and B will both improve, because both players are fronting a large effort, but do you really think that B will ultimately come out on top? If anything B could contribute most of his level of play to A, because if A improves B will also improve, and will be forced to improve cause of play to win.

On last thing, my friend put it so elegantly:
JMK74295: i saw it as here's Bob - he just bought SSBM
JMK74295: he reads "Play to win" thinks its a great idea
JMK74295: Play to learn is the tool he uses to go from unwrapping the game, to being able to impliment play to win
MookieRah: exactly
MookieRah: i'm posting that

 

[Ironclad]

This is the same kind of advice I would often give to up and coming Dawn of War players, it certainly worked for me to analyze my own matches. However, that game had a built-in replay system, so anyone could do it easily. With SSBM it's a bit different, because not everyone has a camera. I'd love to analyze my own games, but I haven't the means to do so, and I think that a lot of other people have the same problem. That, or they're just too lazy to do it.

Is there some way we can get this info stickied or something? This is a must-read for anyone in the novice-journeyman range and it would be nice to have it somewhere convenient as a reference I can just point people to.

 

[Kroy]

Wow, you and Sirlin should right a book or something MookieRah.

This is great stuff and what I have been trying to tell people in the Halo community for a while.

Now, I hardly ever play to win. It's not that I am that interested in improving as much as it is I don't have a competitive spark inside me. Observing to me is the most involving aspect of this game. Whenever I play I am looking at what my opponent does for a way to abuse it to my advantage. Often times I will lose horribly the first game and even if they possess more skill than me give them a run for their money the rest of the time.

Adaptation and prediction can overcome great skill divides. However this can be, and for me is, detrimental to playing-to-win scenarios. Its good to be adaptable, but you need the skills to take advantage of the adaptability. If you don't want victory more than you opponent you aren't going to get it.

Right now I'd say I have reached the intermediate level of play, but I haven't progressed any further do to limiting myself. Since I do plan on attending MLG next season I plan on stepping up my game greatly, and playing to win more often (maybe).

I love the depth of thought this thread has to offer. If anything this proves games are not merely mindless pasttimes any more. Eat that old people!

Seriously, lots of great thinking is going on here. Keep on keepin' on.

 

[AltF4]

First off, great job on the thread. This is a great discussion.

You talked before about characters and plateaus, and I've been thinking much about that in regards to my play. I had never been a "competitive" smasher. I had only ever played the game within my group of friends with the exclusive purpose of having fun. (By that, I mean a great deal of the things we did made us lose a lot, but were meant to be great fun. Like kirbycides and really risky impressive KO's that don't work most of the time.) So I still have a bit of these so called "bad habits" ingrained into my brain. Most of them are from playing 4 player FFA's and not 1v1's. I think a lot of what was said here is true, and will help me greatly.

But back to what I was going to say, is about characters. I primarily main Ness, and although I always get compliments as being "(one of) the best Ness's they've seen", it's never enough to place highly in tournaments with characters like fox or falco. The dillemma I suppose is: Do I hang on to the character even though he is generally regarded as being "bad"? Or do I pick up more with a secondary character that I'm not as good with, but is generally regarded as "Higher tier"?

I've seen what good players can do with low tier characters. (IE Taj's Mewtwo) But even Tony steps up to Fox when the chips are on the table, so-to-speak.

So, is it ever too late to pick up a new character? Even with the guidelines for improving your game discussed here?

 

[Frozenserpent]

It's never too late to pick up a new character. It's always good to be at least familiar with a variety of characters.

I would urge you to look into other chars, as well, if just for fun.

 

[AltF4]

Oh, well I didn't mean to give the impression that I only use one character. It's just that since I've made the transition to playing more "competitively" I haven't made much progress with the other characters I use as secondary.

 

[MookieRah]

Haha, Tony, or Taj is a good example to use cause I too am a Mewtwo player. I'm about to the point that I'm just gonna tip my hat to Taj and give him my title of best US Mewtwo simply cause there is no way I think I can compete with his Mewtwo, cept maybe dittos. That's a whole different story altogether, but yes, one can pick up a character and apply the stuff I have said and improve with that character. It's also a good idea to have some higher end secondaries to cover your bad matchups. Marth, now my main, was my secondary to cover my Mewtwo who was my primary, but is now my trump card secondary. It think that sentence could have been worded better, but my brain is tired.

I suggest playing around with higher tiered chars till you find one that you enjoy playing. For me the key to getting better with a character was directly tied into enjoying to play said character. It's hard to improve at the game when it's entirely a chore to do so.

 

[Scamp]

Okay, easy and simple.

Playing to learn is what you should do if you can't win by playing to win. It's basically a part of playing to win, as Mookie mentioned with the relations to Sirlin's third article. (Entitled "Not playing to win.")

Which is getting to what (I think) Forward is trying to say and what may be missing from Sirlin's articles: execution and experience. But mostly execution. It's not enough to know or figure out tactics that work, you need to be able to do them every time you need them. If you can do a combo 80 percent of the time, well then that's 20 percent that you're not playing your best.

People sometimes wonder why they don't do so well in tournaments or other settings. The answer may be that while you may have your technical stuff down any even your strategy, you need to have practice in a "playing to win" mindset. If you haven't tried your hardest to win and then get into a situation where you have to try your hardest to win, you're likely to falter. It's because you're in an unfamiliar situation, like you just picked up the game for the first time, even though you may be familiar with and excel at every other aspect of the game.

That's kind of a broad example and people react to things differently. Just adjust it to whatever detail you want instead of the "first tourney" example.


So, in simple terms, keep your mind open but don't forget execution.

 

[Yellow Mage]

Mookie, I seriously advise you do NOT direct people's attention to any "official" tier lists, or then they will never be able to find thier OWN TRUE tier list. My Smash motto is "All TRUE tier lists are only intra-personal," and I belive that applies to everybody, every charactor. For example, you and Mewtwo! You would NEVER have found out how good you were with Mewtwo had you relied on the "official" tier list which positions Mewtwo so low.

Think about that before you even THINK about directing to the "official" tier list ever again.

 

[MookieRah]

For example, you and Mewtwo! You would NEVER have found out how good you were with Mewtwo had you relied on the "official" tier list which positions Mewtwo so low.

Something important that I think should be said in regards to the tier list and how people are ranked and what not. The current tier list, in my opinion, is very very accurate in the top 3 tiers. Below that though, it's a different story. My suggestion was simply pick up a higher tiered char, preferably top or high, to have as a secondary to help fend off your bad matchups. I didn't say to not play low tiers, but to simply pick up some help to go with it.

Also, on low tiers, the main reason that I played Mewtwo for as long as I did is cause he was my best and in order for me at the time to perform at my best I would have to play as Mewtwo. At lower ends of play the tier lists matters less and less. After experimenting with high tiered chars, switching back to mewtwo, then focusing on marth as a secondary, somewhere along the lines I breached into the next stage and my developement, and once that happened I was able to see how Mewtwo is very lacking.

Don't get me wrong, I love to play Mewtwo, and I think he is a "good" character. Potentially mid-tier matierial, which I hope Taj will make into a reality. However, playing as marth, I can already give you a large reason as to why Marth is quite a good bit better than Mewtwo. It's not just in combos and kill moves, and most of what is debated in the tierlists. It's his ability to punish mistakes with INCREDIBLE ease, and the ability to generate fear and control over your opponent by just a random tip or by simply taking advantage of their mistakes. Marth is also able to create an offensive wall that stifles and paralyzes opponents causing confusion and disarray in their play that makes him seemingly unstoppable if one is using Marth with excellent spacing and tech. Mewtwo doesn't have all these strengths. He has a lot of different things to help compensate a little bit, but it's just not as prevalent. I'm not saying it isn't possible to do things like that with Mewtwo, but Marth would be able to do it easier, better, and more often.

Trust me, I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. I really love Mewtwo, and I hope to god he is incredible in Brawl, but in Melee I feel now, more than I have ever, he is just too lacking and would be a hinderance to me if I spent my time focused on improving him instead of Marth. That said, Mewtwo is still my secondary, my oddball counterpick character. Mewtwo has a lot of merits that could help me win in conjunction with Marth, and I realize that.

I hope this makes sense. Also, I would still like to make one last Mewtwo combo video, if I could ever get my video back from a certain Memphis/Millington crew *nudge*.

 

[h1roshi]

yeah i am kinda in a plateau right now i guess...i have the tecgh skill down and all...but its hard to play smarter and watch what my opponent does because both of my main opponents play very fast aggressive...on plays as fox and the other as falco...we are very advanced players so its hard to improve much these days...even though we can all use improvement..but at this point its feels so hasr to get better...i play falco, shiek, and doc...and i do all their appropriate advanced techniques and all..but there is always something missing...i cant seem to get into the top 4 of my local 40+ man tournaments....i always seem to get around 7th place...im just stuck there...but i guess i have to really stress observing my opponent more...thanx for the advice btw....peace

-hiroshi

 

[Yellow Mage]

Something important that I think should be said in regards to the tier list and how people are ranked and what not. The current tier list, in my opinion, is very very accurate in the top 3 tiers. Below that though, it's a different story. My suggestion was simply pick up a higher tiered char, preferably top or high, to have as a secondary to help fend off your bad matchups. I didn't say to not play low tiers, but to simply pick up some help to go with it.

Also, on low tiers, the main reason that I played Mewtwo for as long as I did is cause he was my best and in order for me at the time to perform at my best I would have to play as Mewtwo. At lower ends of play the tier lists matters less and less. After experimenting with high tiered chars, switching back to mewtwo, then focusing on marth as a secondary, somewhere along the lines I breached into the next stage and my developement, and once that happened I was able to see how Mewtwo is very lacking.

Don't get me wrong, I love to play Mewtwo, and I think he is a "good" character. Potentially mid-tier matierial, which I hope Taj will make into a reality. However, playing as marth, I can already give you a large reason as to why Marth is quite a good bit better than Mewtwo. It's not just in combos and kill moves, and most of what is debated in the tierlists. It's his ability to punish mistakes with INCREDIBLE ease, and the ability to generate fear and control over your opponent by just a random tip or by simply taking advantage of their mistakes. Marth is also able to create an offensive wall that stifles and paralyzes opponents causing confusion and disarray in their play that makes him seemingly unstoppable if one is using Marth with excellent spacing and tech. Mewtwo doesn't have all these strengths. He has a lot of different things to help compensate a little bit, but it's just not as prevalent. I'm not saying it isn't possible to do things like that with Mewtwo, but Marth would be able to do it easier, better, and more often.

Trust me, I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. I really love Mewtwo, and I hope to god he is incredible in Brawl, but in Melee I feel now, more than I have ever, he is just too lacking and would be a hinderance to me if I spent my time focused on improving him instead of Marth. That said, Mewtwo is still my secondary, my oddball counterpick character. Mewtwo has a lot of merits that could help me win in conjunction with Marth, and I realize that.

I hope this makes sense. Also, I would still like to make one last Mewtwo combo video, if I could ever get my video back from a certain Memphis/Millington crew *nudge*.

You say at lower levels of play, tiers matter less and less. I belive it works at the opposite end of the spectrum, as well. I still also stand by all tier lists are intra-personal: my brother, for example, plays a LOT better with Roy as opposed to Marth, and that is coming from a Marth player myself.

Pikachu will always be my main, being supported by my profeciency with Marth, Jigglypuff, Pichu, and the Ice Climbers.

 

[forward]

Okay, easy and simple.

Playing to learn is what you should do if you can't win by playing to win. It's basically a part of playing to win, as Mookie mentioned with the relations to Sirlin's third article. (Entitled "Not playing to win.")

Which is getting to what (I think) Forward is trying to say and what may be missing from Sirlin's articles: execution and experience. But mostly execution. It's not enough to know or figure out tactics that work, you need to be able to do them every time you need them. If you can do a combo 80 percent of the time, well then that's 20 percent that you're not playing your best.

People sometimes wonder why they don't do so well in tournaments or other settings. The answer may be that while you may have your technical stuff down any even your strategy, you need to have practice in a "playing to win" mindset. If you haven't tried your hardest to win and then get into a situation where you have to try your hardest to win, you're likely to falter. It's because you're in an unfamiliar situation, like you just picked up the game for the first time, even though you may be familiar with and excel at every other aspect of the game.

That's kind of a broad example and people react to things differently. Just adjust it to whatever detail you want instead of the "first tourney" example.


So, in simple terms, keep your mind open but don't forget execution.

Not exactly. What I'm trying to say is, learning comes from playing to win.

If two people both want to win, they will be doing everything they know to win. Now untill one of them steps up their game, the matches will all follow the same trend, whether that be going even, domination on one part, or anywhere inbetween. When someone steps up their game, what are they doing? They are implementing new knowledge into their game. Perhaps they will wavedash a little more, maybe throw out some attack they wouldn't think would work or have a purpose. Whatever it is, they are trying NEW things to win. These new things are what you learn when you play to win.

Now if someone is "playing to learn," they are doing something else besides winning. They are trying to WD more, attack differently, the same things the other person would do when trying to win. The difference is, this time around these tactics are going to be completely random, and you will have no idea when to implement them.

Say your normal SHL, shuffle sex kick pattern is owning **** up. Well now you wanna learn some new things so you decide to do SHL run in d-tilt. It may work sometimes, maybe even a lot of times, but you won't understand the difference between SHL shuffle sex kick, and SHL run in d-tilt, they both ****.

If you are both playing to win, and the other person finds a counter to your SHL shuffle sex kick, you must find a counter to that. Say the counter is SHL run in d-tilt, you have a clear understanding of when, how, and why this works. You know the difference of when to use one or the other.

The playing to learn scenerio on the other hand, may know and use both of them. But they won't know the difference of why one works.

To put in summary, I'd say this. It's more important in this game to know why winning tactics don't work, as opposed to knowing winning tactics.

 

[Scamp]

All right then, let me re-iterate.

Unlike what Forward is saying, though what he's saying is still important and useful, execution and experience should not be overlooked.

You can't play at 100 percent if you can't do your best moves/options 100 percent of the time.

 

[MookieRah]

The playing to learn scenerio on the other hand, may know and use both of them. But they won't know the difference of why one works.

That's why after you find something that works you switch back to playing to win to learn to implement it. After you learn that something is good and that something works you then play normal, in my case normal is play to win, to make sure you know when to do it.

Also, define stepping up your game, or the process one goes about stepping up their game. To me "stepping up your game" would be this learning process in which you analyze, experiment, and eventually implement which is playing to learn.