Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion

Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Location
Baltimore, MD
As per an earlier comment: I fought GIMR recently and finally defeated him after a long time of not being able to, but it wasn't streamed nor recorded. One of my stocks taken from him had to do with using sideb, he blocked it, I dash attack both him and the can, shoot him with sideB into the can as he's flying away. Was pretty cool.

Anyway,

DHD can give MK hell, but MK is fast and has a sword, it's hard to actually cleanly beat MK. I'm not sure what to advise in this matchup unfortunately. Keep your defense on point.
 
Last edited:

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
On the MK MU:

This MU can be troublesome if you don't know about MK's various tricks, but if you do know them, it becomes a game of baiting.

On Doggy's side, Trick Shot becomes a VERY valuable move, as it forces MK to slow down or take damage, which is not in MK's favor whatsoever. Trick Shot on the ground forces him to have to roll around the can, kick it away, or jump over it, all of which can be punished by watching their patterns. Rolling leads to grabs, kicking it is their best option but can lead to free damage as long as Doggy is keeping on eye on the can, and jumping over it is not as easy as it sounds, due to his relatively short jump height and slower air speed, very similar to Kirby and D3's multiple jumps. Gunmen is alright as supplemental pressure, but on it's own can be hard to use against MK, seeing as his moves are fast and gets on top of opponents very easily. Clay Pigeon can be decent for supplemental pressure as well, but is very laggy. Personally, when my opponent is faster than me, I'll tend to avoid using clay pigeons if I can, but it's up to you. The lag is not great, but the damage could be worth the trade off, if you properly use Clay.

MK's weight is another factor in this MU. While we will have a harder time KO'ing him, racking up damage should be a cinch, as combos and strings tend to land more effectively on heavies/ fast fallers.F-throw can force him to tech as early percents, and U-Air pressure from below is fantastic once he's above you. You'll want to try to KO off the side, and keep him off stage, as he tends to burn jumps relatively quickly. It's not easy to edgeguard him, no, but his weight, air speed and less than stellar range means you can rack up a lot of damage very quickly.

On MK's side, once he gets on top of you, it's pretty scary. He has a few frame traps, can KO quickly and is pretty good at edge guarding, all qualities that Doggy (if not, most characters) do not like. His F-Smash is very fast (think Pikachu and G&W fast), and KO's pretty early with a good read. Him also have multiple jumps means he can also camp for a while, just to bait out unsafe moves from Doggy or go for more mindgames, hence why I recommend using Trick Shot as a defensive tool in this MU.

A special thing about this MU I need to also address is Dimensional Cape, as this will be used a fair amount in the MU. It get's past projectiles, can have an attack or not, and is very dangerous for Doggies who don't pay attention. Not to mention it can KO at around 115. Keep an eye out for the move, it's not too bad if you know it's coming since you can simply shield. But one good use of this cape can turn the match around very quickly and seemingly out of nowhere, since projectiles will not protect you here.

I'd give Doggy a -1 in this MU. Doggy has the tools to deal with it, yes, but MK's much better KO power and heavy weight means you really have to play carefully. It's not a shutout by any means, but be prepared to playing defense a bunch, with partial aggression to mix things up.
 

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
Alright, onto Tink!


Dawww! Whose's a cute wittle hero of the wind?????

:4duckhunt:VS:4tlink:

PROS! (For Doggy!)

  • Able to keep up with Toon Link's projectile game.
  • Moves are generally more safe on Doggy's side.
  • Gunmen are very useful for poking in this MU
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • Bombs are an excellent projectile against Doggy.
  • KO's tend to be easier for Tink (KO Throw, Very strong U-Air and fast aerial moveset.)
  • Tink's Wall is faster and harder to break than Doggy's.
So this is one of those MU's I would classify under "ugh" or "Third Grade Food Fight". It's not hard but damn it's gonna take a while and requires a ton of thinking.

On Doggy's side, Gunmen are great against very spammy Tinks. Stale moves mean they will be able to attacks and thier translucent shots means they will most likely always find their mark, or force Tink to at least do something else besides "wall of pain" mode. Clay Pigeon and Trick Shot have their utility as well, but tend to be harder to use since Clay has a ton of endlag and clashes with most of Tink's wall, and Trick Shot can be used against you relatively safe with Tink's arrows and boomerangs. For some reason, the boomerang always gets me, and seems to always send the can pretty far, but perhaps I am just unlucky...

Once in each other's face, neither of thier neutrals really dominates the other. Tink has a Zair and disjointed grabs, fast aerials and faster projectiles than Doggy, where Doggy has his super disjointed Fair and slightly better manuverability to work around Tink.

On Toon Link's end, they'll want to really take advantage of bombs in this MU. While they may seem simple at first, I think them to be the best of his projectiles due to how accurately they can be controlled, how they can act as traps and lead into dreaded KO set-ups and strong strings. Staying mobile and using bombs as offense and traps will be the name of the game since Toon Link can really make a fool of Doggy's slower projectile game.

I'd give Doggy a -1 in this MU. Toon Link has tools to deal with Doggy, bombs especially, but Gunmen can really mess up Toon Link with proper management and set-ups. Toon Link still has the slight advantage of many characters of being able to KO more reliably.

I'd love to ask @ TheWorstMuppet TheWorstMuppet about this MU, since I think he knows it much better than the rest of us Doggies, playing with a local Tink pretty often. If Yackabean has an SB account, it'd be even cooler to get his side of it!
 
Last edited:

TheWorstMuppet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
262
Location
Scotland
3DS FC
1332-8277-4239
NNID
TheWorstMuppet
That pictures adorable!

Right, dog & bird vs. a child! Let's GO!

:4duckhunt:VS.:4tlink:

Pros for the Duo:
  • Duo win the close quarters game overall. Duck Hunts aerials reach further and beat out Toon Links.
  • Duck Hunt has the tools to break through Toon Links barrage of projectiles. Clay Pidgeon and Gunmen are pretty integral in this MU.
  • Duck Hunt has a better grab, doesn't hafta worry about getting grabbed as much as when playing other characters.
Cons for the Duo:
  • 50% of the time, T-Links projectiles are gonna cause your cans to blow up in your face.
  • Landing back on stage can be particularly difficult with this MU. Offstage game definitely goes to TL.
  • Finding a way to get to Toon Link can be stressful as--
I'm starting to feel more confident in this MU recently. I guess it's partly to do with playing the same person for a while, but it's also become a case of seeing Toon Links projectiles in a different light. A few months ago I was easily overwhelmed by everything flying at my eyes. Now, I feel I can take a moment and figure out how best to deal with each thing heading towards me.

I believe that shielding is probably your best option. Toon Links grab is SUCH a commitment. Most of the time when I fight Yackabean, I take a few moments to shield (far from his tether, mind) and consider what my best option to approach would be. Dealing with each projectile as they come for you suddenly makes walling Toon Link out sliiiightly easier. Bombs are the only thing I'm concerned about get hit by now, as they lead into follow ups which hurt!

Breaking into Toon Links living quarters isn't easy, but Gunmen and Clay Pigeon usually do the trick. Toon Link will usually be getting ready to set up a new projectile and by the time he does that, he usually has two options, jump or shield. Both of which can be favorable in allowing Duck Hunt to react.

Here's one possible scenario for Gunman, on Battlefield:

> DH sets up Gunman. He is a good distance away and Toon Link doesn't have a bomb in his hand.

> If Toon Link is in the middle of pulling out a projectile, approach, wait for reaction (This is assuming you know the timing of each gunman and how much time they allow you to approach. That's pretty important here.)

> Toon Link jumps? Go for the can to bait the up-air (you might wanna wait and see what T-Link does. If he has a bomb in his hand he can just blow the both of you up. Or just you), and if he goes for the air dodge, wait and then up air.

> Toon Link shields? Best outcome, you get the grab, stage control is now in your favour for a wee bit.

> If Toon Link rolls or spotdodges, you can still approach and punish accordingly (grab or dash attack would do the trick!)

Here's one possible scenario for Clay Pigeon:

> DH throws Clay Pigeon.

> Toon Link presumably shields it unless he gets caught off guard and gets hit.

> Duck Hunt gets a bit more control of the neutral. If Toon Link gets hit, go for grab or dash attack etc.

I know those are quite vague situations, but hopefully they show a bit of how important these two projectiles are in pushing the tide in your favour.

Another thing I want to stress is that if a cans not working for you, if it's going the wrong way and you can't get to it without sacrificing stage control, then just get rid of it. And quick. Nothing worse than getting caught in an up-tilt string and the can is sitting near you going the other way. Especially against Toon Link, where the can can help you break free. You have to choose the the moments to use it carefully. You start panicking and throw it out, you'll be dead in no time.

If you don't do it already, when knocked offstage I recommend kicking a can before recovery at all times. Toon Link is not a character who'll let you get back to ground easy. Every time I have recovered low, I eat a fair and die. Keep a can close to you. And pray.

I've been talking to @Yackabean about this match up for a while, and we've found that the match-up is at the very least a -1. It's actually quite even, I must say! As Guy said to me a while ago, focus on finding holes in Toon Links zone and get in! Make sure you don't let him get space away from you!

But yeah, it's not AS bad as I once thought. It's still in TL's favour slightly.
 

EvanBuck

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Messages
68
Location
San Diego, California
Yeah, Duck Hunt vs. Toon Link leans slightly in TL's favor due to Toon Link's ability to evade much of DH's spacing techniques, and his faster but weaker projectile game. Also, Tink can block projectiles by standing still with his shield, but if you're fast enough you can follow up on a campy Tink with a grab or a dash attack. Overall the matchup is pretty even IMO and would be interesting to see in tournament.
 
Last edited:

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
164
It's worth noting, in my opinion, toon link is weaker than Link, and if you can beat the latter, you can beat the former.

Don't bother with the projectile game (I need to hurry up with my character cliches guide), as you can simply jump over boomerang and insert a frisbee, which will either:

1) Override the arrow and there's your opener
2) Cancel out on the arrow. Simply jump back (avoiding returning boomerang) and repeat, or change up
3) Hit a bomb (cancels the bomb near toon link to your favour - dodge follow up attack, punish)
4) Meets a sword slash (interrupts sword slash - jump or roll dodge and free opening)
5) Hit a shield (free grab - toss him towards the boomerang to cancel it out)


As noted in my previous guide, as he's a projectile character, you need to get in close. The fastest opener you can get to break his projectile game is to jump the boomerang and go straight for a forward air [best executed when he's either charging an arrow or pulling out a bomb - it will win out 80% of the time] (it's range is on par with toon link's shorter sword, and often you'll win out due to speed and reactions). This can be punished by toon link with a shield then attack, but if you're quick, you can go from forward air into a tech rapid light jab opening (which means if he tries to attack you interrupt), or a tech into roll dodge leaving you clear of both sword and boomerang. If you can't get that down, the frisbee landing above (make sure it's in the middle between boomerang's peak and his position: it's close enough to hit on poor reactions, but far enough the sword stab won't make it and a dash is dodgeable) works fine.

The default shield can be overwhelmed (drop a can on his head, followed by frisbee, gunman - the shield only protects the front).

The only real danger toon link poses is that turd of a sword that KOs pretty early, so heavier emphasis on light, quick attacks and evasion, and saving smash attempts for when he makes a huge error (like a slow sword swing, down A attack or badly positioneed up-B).

I'd say he has the advantage though but only by +0.5 (mainly due to the bomb game and default shield).

I'll see if I can upload an example battle with a toon link.
 
Last edited:

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
Let's start week 11 tomorrow. What MU's would you guys like to see? I was thinking Wario, DK and... MAYBE THE DITTO?!!?!?!!?!?!
 

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
Alright, Week 11! This week we'll be hunting the Leader of The Bunch, DK, trying to avoid pink eye with Wario and discussing one more random MU to be voted on! If nobody votes, it will be Pit & Dark Pit!


DONG BOT MUST EXPAND AND TERMINATE

:4duckhunt:VS:4dk:
PROS! (For Doggy!)
  • One of the largest targets in the game, quite easy to hit with projectiles and combos.
  • Linear recovery is very punishable from above.
  • DK always has to approach, regardless of stock lead.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • One of the heaviest hitters in the game, KO's Doggy quite easily.
  • Armor on certain moves can power through projectiles.
  • He can stretch his arms out, just for you (also meaning he covers lots of space easy and can frame trap much more consistently than others).
This MU is a tricky one to judge. Both characters have huge advantages on the other, which makes it feel even in the end.

On Doggy's end, this is pretty much the perfect target: He's big, has no projectiles and a less than stellar recovery. Meaning it will look like the a bloody carnival of projectiles potentially walling out the great ape. Trick Shot can keep him locked to parts of the stage (being so large and with a less than stellar roll), clay pigeons are easier to land and shield poke, and gunmen force DK to either play super aggro or hide in shield. Doggy's excellent range (Fair, U-Air, and Dair) also means when he's up close, it's not too hard to swat him away and flee. If Doggy hides under a platform with Trick Shot as well, things get even more HAIRY for the ape (badum-tss). Trading with DK's recovery is a bit harder, but doing it with a sour spot Fair can potentially end the stock very early.

However, on DK's end, Doggy is one good punish away from being KO'd. Having armor on some moves, he can power through cans and gunmen potentially, and rack up damage fast. Once DK is on you, getting him off is not easy, since his giant damn arms cover tons of options. With Doggy's lame KO power as well, DK will be getting lots of free rage, ending stocks potentially at 60% (curse you Ding Dong!!!). If Doggy goes offstage also, that's a very easy edgeguard for a character that hits like a truck.

I'd have to give this MU a 0, honestly. It really comes down to player skill, since both of these characters have a ton of advantages on each other. Doggy can potentially wall out DK very easily and make him dance, while DK can potentially rack up damage very easy and KO even faster than most characters.

I haven't had the chance to square off with him yet (At least I don't think so...), but I'd like to ask a local DK about the MU, as I consider him a master of expanding (paging @ RiotLettuce RiotLettuce ). Perhaps we could even get a few friendlies to get a better picture.
 

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
164
DK I'd immediately assign a -1 or even -2 compared to duck hunt duo (or should it be DHD is +1 or +2), because in experience I've only lost to extremely skilled Donkey Kong (and we're talking them having their defence on point, edge guarding like crazy etc), and that's not without leaving them extremely injured on a high percent with one stock left (usually it's being caught out on a power move whilst their heavy weight keeps them alive to 180% that gets me). If they're even slightly unskilled... well, to put it bluntly, most matches end with DK getting 2 stocked and DHD on a low percent.

DK, along with Ganon, is one of the worst choices (I default taunt laugh if I ever see one on opening because I know how it will finish): their size, slowness and poor air game makes the entire fight an uphill struggle for them versus projectiles. Effectively, they catch everything, can be easily combo'd and DHD's air gives him a huge edge (think forward air or back airing them out of range).

If DK's shielding isn't on point, frisbees will crash all bar the power punch and the spin (the power punch should never be frisbee'd anyway, and the spin can be beaten by gunmen or a nice dodge/jump and wait). Most DKs will have to jump, but due to their size, they're vulnerable to cans... even when air-dodging (largely because if you drop it when they dodge, chances are they'll be intersecting with their large body when it finishes and BOOM).

DHDs should never try to go close combat. Due to dodgy Nintendo physics, DKs arms can hit you, but DHD has to hit closer to DK's centre/torso (and not his arms... whatever Nintendo). The same recommendation extends to aerial attacks whilst they're grounded (if they bat upwards... it often converts to KO), however if they're airborne or in hitstun, it's a different matter entirely (assuming you use speed, forward air wins out against most air attacks, and if they're in hitstun, you win by default. Even if they hit you, if they're above, it converts into downward force but not always a KO, and their moves are lame for side whacks). It's not recommended to use a double forward air combo because by that time the DK player will get wise and the second one usually turns into a power intercept by DK.


As for KO game, he's harder to launch, but he has great difficulty (very great difficulty) recovering. If DHDs stay on point to catch lateral spins, he can be down aired pretty easily (think Ryu kick in terms of intercept), and if DK is more diagonally, cans will catch out (especially if you drop it prematurely in-front so you catch his air dodge). Because of the poor inability to air dodge cans, a DHD who has good can accuracy and timing can convert a 'low' 120% into a kill by forcing him into blast zone by successive cannings.

Even if can and down airs don't work, if DK is too close, a forward air intercept will keep him off stage if done by surprise. Essentially, keeping him over the edge works to his disadvantage: one mistake and it's game over.

Yes, DK can easily launch DHD, but so do a lot of other characters (some on a lesser percentage than others, EG Marth, Roy). DHD can usually survive up to 100% before DK enters 'kill' range territory (assuming you avoid being down aired and avoid the power punch), and he'll be lucky if he gets you even to there assuming you play to speed and indirect attacks (it's possible to two stock a DK and walk away with about only 50% damage if you prevent him from getting a move in edgeways).

Speed, projectile interruption and dodging are what favour DHD, and DK's move rarely break shield, unless you're high percent where 'spontaneous shield failure' will likely occur, where jump and roll dodge are recommended.

DK loses out badly because even if he gains ground, a can to the face will space nicely and setup for immediate frisbee punish on hitstun, spacing again.

I applaude any Donkey Kong who wins because it's mainly by skill that it is achieved, and I imagine the irritation of the projectiles interrupting every other slow move to be quite great.
 
Last edited:

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
164
Wario, he's a nasty one.

On first appearances, Wario doesn't seem too menacing - he has no projectiles, he's pretty slow, and the only thing to deal with is the bike, right?

Wrong. Wario is one of those 'joke' characters who turn out to be surprisingly deadly for all the wrong (right?) reasons.

Yes, the bike is the major issue, but because it can destroy an unprepared DHD's projectile game (it will win out against an inaccurate frisbee and gunman if wheelies and speed are utilised properly), he opens up DHD's defences, straight into an aerial (DHD's slow up smash and very short up tilt become an issue here). DHDs are immediately force into a defensive which means Wario gains the upperhand.

Competent DHD's will hover a can about head height (as if he was riding a bike to blow Wario off of it if he chooses to do so), but smarter Warios will just go past the can... and then use the bike. Which leaves DHD vulnerable. Again. A frisbee with more up air time will, conveniently, hover about head height (which if shot will literally shoot Wario of his bike).

The slow moves pack power, which means Wario can easily punch and down smash A DHD to fatality, and they will classically break frisbee. And a competent Wario will use bike as a projectile to ledge guard by vertical toss (so the bike stuns you then... PAWNCH). As it so happens, DHDs can do this back to Wario (and sets up nicely for a forward smash A) so it's double edged sword.

DHDs again forced on defence - you'll want to deny him access to the bike if it's on the floor, because he can either eat it (1% reduction plus extra to fart), throw it, or ride it again. Really capable Warios will use a ledge trick so they will fall off their bike but it's still on stage for free fart build up.

Wario can also just opt to hit you with the bike over the edge whilst you're recovering (which converts to KO well, especially on DHD's upair), and even if he misses, he can air intercept you, giving him two chances.

His down air thankfully doesn't KO too well, but it does tend to override DHD's upair (unless the attack cycle of upair is done very early and the final beak hit - which is the most deadly - hits him) due to it's multi-hit nature. His up-b is the same for any down air attempts, which protects Wario.

And of course, there's that all inclusive fart. Now most people expect the fart to only be deadly when Wario glows, but a good player who knows roughly it's charge period will use the fart before Wario starts glowing so there's no warning (even at about 80% charge it converts into KO nicely, especially if the opponent has 80% damage). DHD is no exception and his lightness here proves fatal.

Even worse, used in conjunction with the bike (IE the bike is on the floor), the fart's hit window expands (so say you're punching up inside a bike - if Wario farts, it's hit window lasts longer because it hits the bike, a quirk of Nintendo physics). It's not by much, but it's sufficient to catch out unaware players, making the bike/fart interaction even more deadly.

And a Wario that has good reactions can eat all of the projectiles (except gunman) without punishment. Yes, that includes the exploding can (despite it applying to bombs etc as harming him, the can is the exception. Yet more Nintendo hate for DHD...).

Wario becomes deadly for all the wrong reasons: his weak down air protects against most upwards attacks due to it's fast multi-hit nature. His terrible up-B protects from down air due to multi-hit nature. His bike will trash projectiles (and if used unpredictably, becomes a real hazard), can KO over edge, sets up for aerial attacks, used as an edge guarding tool by projectile, reduces damage, builds fart and expands fart hit window (erk!). His moves are powerful, and coupled with bike used as interrupt projectile becomes fatal (because bike prevents dodge).

The only things that play to advantage here is DHD's forward air beats out Wario's forward air game, DHD has better air time (especially if Wario is denied bike access or is hit below his up-B recovery range), the can always wins out against the bike if it's being shot at time of impact (it won't do anything if he moves over it and it's not being shot or airborne) and DHD can use the bike in the same way Wario does. DHD are reliant on speed: not only to avoid his slower attacks, but to kill him faster so his fart doesn't have time to build to fatal levels (but beware because the fart doesn't reset on KO, so it's speed in the match overall, not just the first life).

I'll personally give Wario a +1. They are particularly tricky to deal with, on the same level as Sonic.
 

RiotLettuce

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
105
Location
Orlando, Florida
3DS FC
0877-2587-1813
NNID
RiotLettuce
I feel like the Duck Hunt matchup is even, or maybe +1 in DK's favor. You can keep DK out, but for how long? You'll do like 30% before he gets in, and he'll do 30% in like 2 or 3 hits. But a good DK will make sure that once he gets in, he makes sure he does more than 30%. This matchup is pretty much whos better at doing their thing. How well can you keep DK out, and how well can your DK get in vs DH.

And just as a side note and a common misconception, DK's recovery isnt bad. It's not easy to punish, its not a free spike, youll almost never get a spike on a good DK's recovery. I saw those in a couple of posts so I just had to make sure to give you guys some good info
 

Splooshi Splashy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2015
Messages
457
Location
Cawifohneeeya
3DS FC
4768-8534-8805
NNID
Splooshi_Splashy
*Cue Investigation ~ Opening 2007 from the Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney OST*

Match Vid References:

Croi's Default DH (!?) VS Madda's ?331 DK The Last Airbender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se3ft4UNUlQ

Mew2King's DK VS MVD's DH (Round 2 only): https://youtu.be/R0bpagKaDqE?t=5m36s
No customs here, but M2K definitely Expanded the Dong here decisively.

This may be months old (and thus will NOT feature the Ding Dong), but it does feature our own DunnoBro's Custom 3123 (Round 1) / 3111 (Rounds 2 & 3) Hunt VS Ascended/AverageJoe's 1231 Custom Airbender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxqYaAx9KDE


Custom Loadouts:

"AND HIS NAME WAS DONG CENA--" 8D *Cue air horns, the familiar "Duhhh duhduh duhhhh~" riff, and my loud squee-ing over what I'm going to be covering here today*

*Cue Courtroom Lobby ~ New Prelude from the Apollo Justice OST*

*Breathes heavily with a smile on his face* Ohhh, man~ :happysheep: I'm quite pleased to read that we're finally going to cover someone with a Custom Loadout as ResidentSleeper/WutFace/BabyRage/SwiftRage (Twitch Emoticons)-inducingly controversial as ChrisGer, aka Custom Villager (who I DO actually LIKE seeing still, because he's the living embodiment of the UMVC3 Morrigan/Doctor Doom/Vergil team, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the week when he was in our Dog House). Unlike many a spectator who would cry out "Jank!" or "Broken!" or "Boring!" upon the sight of Kong Cyclone, I delightfully grin & even squee while addressing Custom DK with nicknames like "Dongnado", "Avatar the Last Airbender," and "Brown/*insert color name here* Cyclone: The Protector of Kongo's Skies" (not the whole name at once, but parts of it) I'll even get as giddy as Mugen!DH over here:

'Tis be the Odie outfit from Royce's DH in Mugen (http://mugen.wikia.com/wiki/Duck_Hunt_Dog/DJ_HANNIBALROYCE's_version). :> Thanks Fighter Factory 3, for allowing me to extract this (and the other colors) from his files. :) Just like what I did for MegaYoshi. :D

*Cue Apollo Justice's version of the Trial theme*
Custom DK, to me, is as hype & cool as 3313 Customzard, x32x Custom Kuradoberi Jam-- er, WFT, and even 2322 Customtena, among others. Of course, Custom Jr and Custom Hunt are also as exciting & amazing as the previously mentioned Custom Crew are. Even ChrisGer gets me hype, so long as he's up against someone who actually has solid answers to his "Planking" style (Custom Hunt, Custom Jr, Pikachu, Sheik, etc.). Come of think of it, one of my favorite parts of these weekly MU discussions is that we cut through the negatively restless crowd reactions to truly confront the supposedly "cancerous" beings that are apparently the "degeneratively OP" Custom Cast Members. It's personally rather fitting that throughout the posts I've made here thus far, I have had the OSTs from throughout the Phoenix Wright series playing as I do these write-ups, for I kindof see this place as a PW:AA-styled courtroom in terms of how focused & yet freely we can assess all aspects of an MU, including certain parts that send the general public into a tizzy (I.E. This week's Xanadu's DunnoBro's DH VS Zage's Pac-Man match, which while it excited me tremendously (Shoutouts and GGs to the both of them), it apparently caused the Stream Monsters to act up against it, due to how ST/SWR/Chess-like its pace was). The series' visual novel stylings (and the gameplay type too) very strongly run through my imagination during these write-ups (and depending on the MU in question, said imagination can go into overdrive like it did during the Jr, Triple D, Pac-Man, and G&W MUs. I'll tell y'all right now, if/once we get around to the Custom Folks I mentioned at the beginning of this paragraph....).


*Cue Questioning ~ Moderato 2007*
Okay, let's actually get on with it!
As much as I adore seeing & playing as you, DK the Last Airbender, today, we must formulate a battle plan on how to challenge your Airbending and come out on top doing so, and luckily for us, like against ChrisGer, our own Custom Loadout most certainly has what it takes to pull it off, as both DunnoBro & Croi have fantastically proven.

We Doggies will likely want 1122 or 3122 or 1132 or 3132 or 1121 or 3121 or 1131 or 3131. Of these, I'd personally pick 3121 or 1121, with 3122 or 1122 being runner-up ideas.

*Cue Trance Logic from the Apollo Justice OST*
Yet Croi has successfully ran 1111?? Now this I'm very curious about, since I've never considered the option of going all-default against someone who's fully Custom'd out. Even against Triple D, one of our easier MUs (even when it's defaults-only), I've found myself recommending 3123 when Customs are on, mainly to make our already easy MU even easier as much as possible. I can sooner understand DunnoBro sticking with 3111, considering the sheer damage payoff we get off of Zigzag on DK. While I'm pleased to have seen him experiment with 3123, as AverageJoe proved, Mega Gunmen itself cannot guard us against any of DK's approach moves (and DK himself can quickly KO them in 2-3 moves if left alone, which can be rather troublesome to deal with in a teams environment). It was worth a shot to try it out during Round 1 at least, so as to see whether or not Mega's looming wrath would be good to bring to this MU (Sorry, Hecatoncheir...), but considering that he switched away to 3111 for the rest of that set, it must not have been worth bringing, which I can actually strongly agree with (none of my personally recommended decks even included Down 3 on purpose!).

Since they've both solidly won with their respective decks, I shall strongly recommend bringing either 1111 or 3111 for confronting Custom DK with.

*Cue Confrontation ~ Allegro 2011 from Gyakuten Kenji 2 for the DS (which NEVER came out in the U.S.)*

Zigzag definitely can rack up MUCH damage & control much space easily, due to his large frame, heavy weight, and his overall (below)-average mobility. However, its biggest problem is of course Dongnado, because it doesn't explode on contact like default Can does, leaving it vulnerable to getting bullied by his Airbending, which seems to have multiple hitboxes to silence it. However, Zigzag will be able to intercept him from below if DK's above it during Up 3. It can go past the wind portion of DK's Neutral 3, but his Down 3 can block it off, and his Side 3 can armor through it.

*Cue "Apollo Justice ~ A New Trial is in Session!" 2007 version*
"But you just endorsed running 3111 & even 1111 against Custom DK. Are you really going to cover why you'd want Up 2 here, despite that?" Yes. Up 2's active hitboxes should be able to help us return to the stage against the Cyclone itself & his numerous spiking options (FAir, Down 1, DAir, Side 1 are traditional spikes, while Up 3 & BAir & NAir lend themselves to stage spikes) when our Can's already been sent out. Its status as a Wake-Up DP can also stop DK from getting in on us, should he somehow make it past our arsenal. However, with the advent of the Ding Dong, could this be one of our options for escaping the UAir part of it, given our Up 2's frame 1 activation? While it can break us free from traditional juggles, Cargo Up-Throw sends us, well, straight up, which MIGHT put a dent in that idea.

*Cue Apollo Justice ~ A New Chapter of Trials 2013 from the Dual Destinies OST*
"But you've been so eager to pick Down 2 against anyone that doesn't have a projectile like Falcon & Mac! Why use Down 1 here?" DK does have some mobility speed, yes (Cyclone practically has him whirring from 1 side of the stage to the other!), but he's not as fast as Falcon or Mac. It's easier to sneak in grabs on him with Down 1 than it is with Down 2-- "But Cargo Up Throw!" If DK DOES somehow grab you while the Sheriff's out to cover your own grab attempt, he may not be able to get to the Cargo Up Throw before the Sheriff shoots him out of it (Can & Clay too if they're nearby, as well as your own button mashing and stick spinning), plus Down 1's body-pushing powers (not so much KO power, but at a high enough percent, it COULD eventually become a KO move) are greater than Down 2's as well.


*Cue Confrontation ~ Presto 2011 from Gyakuten Kenji 2*

DK will likely run 2333 or 3333 or 2233 or 3233 or 2331 or 3331 or 2231 or 3231. Of these decks, I'd personally pick 3333 or 2333, with 3233 or 2233 as runner-ups. Yet Ascended/AverageJoe ran 1231 (pre-patch) and Madda ran ?331.

Lightning Punch charges up MUCH faster than the other Punches, to the point of being more freely usable in the neutral in direct comparison to them. Its KO power & damage output is lower than that of default's, but it can still bully Cans, break Clays, and OHKO non-Mega Gunmen.

Storm Punch charges faster than default Punch, but slower than Lightning Punch. It will NOT blow back Clays OR Cans with the wind itself, but it can still break Clays and shove Cans with the punch itself. All Gunmen are completely immune to the winds, but the Punch itself will still OHKO default & QDA if charged up enough. Where this move really becomes threatening is at Castle Siege & Delfino & possibly Smashville, due to their walk-offs (& the 1 platform at Startersville if close to the Blast Zone) granting easy gimping moments with it ala Zard's Side 3 & Jr's Side 2. 'Course, throwing out ANY of these Punches without solid ground below him is a very risky move, since it sends him into a helpless freefall state afterwards.

Side 2, Leaping Headbutt, allows DK another way to shark platforms from below. It also sends him onto the floor VERY quickly, so if he accidently uses this far enough off-stage to miss the ledge, his stock is gone. On-stage, it can give him a VERY quick way to reach the floor if he's trying to recover from getting launched upwards.

Side 3, Stubborn Headbutt, allows DK an armored option for returning to the floor with. He can also use it to power through our entire arsenal, though he is VERY vulnerable to grabs once he's on the ground (if used in the air).

Down 3, Hot Slap, is a solid anti-air that lacks in ground horizontal range behind him. Incoming Cans & Clays are blockable with this, and if he reads your ledge get-up option, you might wake up to a meaty Down 3. It can bully Cans, break Clays, and OHKO non-Mega Gunmen.
In the air, its vertical range is lacking, but its damage & KO power are great. It can also catch badly-timed airdodges, and it can KO you at around 100% near the edges. Speaking of that region, Down 3 can hang out above the ledge quite far & well in comparison to his other Down B moves. Its anti air range is surprisingly large, and it keeps its high KO power, even if it hits you in the air.


*Cue Pursuit ~ Keep Pressing On from the Dual Destinies OST*
The upcoming Move of the Hour is troublesome enough, that not 1, but 2 vids have been made to attempt to address it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cqupvoLTCE
Sure, it focuses on Sheik's punish options, but there ARE ideas here that can help us out.

https://youtu.be/gX-7hCKpznw?t=1m8s
This, however, is more generalized. It also includes DK's Side 3 & Neutral 3, both of which he'll likely want to bring to this MU (it's also why I've left out certain aspects of those moves).
It even goes over Wario's Side 2, starting here, though I won't be covering Wario's Custom Loadouts just yet (suspecting 22xx or 21xx from him for now, as well as us Doggies running 3122 or 3121): https://youtu.be/gX-7hCKpznw?t=9m16s
At 10:48, he goes over ChrisGer, which I WISH I found during his week. ._.

So, Up 3, Kong Cyclone, the Move of the Hour that has sent MANY a person who hasn't been seasoned with many a traditional fighting game over the years running for the hills, is one of DK's absolute best moves that will certainly have its place in this MU. More than any other move that DK gains from Customs, THIS is the #1 move of concern for many a player, if the above 2 vids and the generally negative reputation surrounding Up 3 are any indication. In case this move wasn't inFamous enough, it can be combined with the mighty Ding Dong by serving as either an extra follow-up in case the UAir after the Carge Up Throw didn't KO you, or as a substitute for UAir to throw off DI & Airdodge timings with.

As Croi wonderfully demonstrated, default Can is a great bailout move for when we're caught up in the Cyclone. Sure we may get exploded ourselves, but so does DK.

Up 3 DOES have Super Armor, and unlike Ryu's FA, it's strong enough to withstand even a default Can's explosion if timed well! It breaks Clays if timed right too (and it can armor through a full shot-up Clay if timed right as well, IF it doesn't break it) and ignores all Gunmen themselves (not so much their shots if timed poorly on DK's end).

Strangely, in the air, Up 3 can only really push a grounded Can with its launching ender. Until then, it has no launching power, only slight damage with which to reduce its active time with (and disable it from being B-pressed, I think). On the ground, only the 1st & last hits of it are able to push a grounded Can.

The two match vid references featuring Croi & DunnoBro are highly recommended for study in regards to challenging his Up 3 as DH. So whatever details I may have gotten wrong about Up 3, hopefully those matches can help patch those up.

This move is also why you must do everything you can to stop him from taking you to Miiverse, Battlefield, and ESPECIALLY Dream Land 64. Even Smashville & Lylat Cruise can be concerns, as well as seemingly any other stage with platforms, because Up 3's recovery time is drastically reduced when he lands on one post-Up 3 (if it ends when he's really close to a platform, that is).

Delfino's another stage to ban against the Brown Cyclone, because his Storm Punch gets to join him for easy walk-off gimps, the windbox of which ignores your entire arsenal. In terms of priority of stages to ban, this will likely be #1, followed by DL64 (Platforms AND a low ceiling to boost Ding Dong? :sadsheep:).
Not sure about Halberd, but with the threat of Ding Dong (okay, I'll be honest, it's personally really fun to say this out loud, like ROB's Beep Boop, Robin's Checkmate (#PutRobinInUminekoNoNakuKoroNi), Customtena's Halle-Hoo-Hah, and other names for DThrow --> UAir (including those styled after it) juggles. It'd sure be nice for us Doggies to have one... I'd probably call it the Cutter Pitch (or would it be the Needle Pitch? It's been a long while since I've played KDL3).), this might be Strong Candidate for Ban #3.

Thus, to contain the might of the Brown Cyclone, FD & Omegas (Walled especially), thee Duck Hunt stage (keep him on the left side of the stage under the tree, or try to make him miss the bush on the right side as often as possible), and possibly T&C (if you can avoid getting Ding Dong'd off the upper middle platform) might be our best bets. While Delfino IS terrifying, both DunnoBro & Croi have shown us ways to make it bearable (and even win there!), though if you can avoid going there against the Airbender, do so.


Ratios: WithOUT Customs: +1 minimum in favor of DH if played defensively. 0 or -1 or worse in DK's favor if DH rushes him down.

With Customs: +1 or better in favor of DH IF we do NOT wind up at DK's best stages.
0 at Neutrals.
-1 or worse for us if DK succeeds at taking us to his best stages.
 

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
I'll open up Wario Discussion now. (Even though Flynn was a bit quick on the trigger...)


...do I even need to say anything here...?

:4duckhunt:VS:4wario2:

PROS! (For Doggy!)

  • Never has to approach in this MU.
  • Disjoints outrange most of Wario's moves.
  • Trick Shot is great for catching Wario's Bike when in mid-air.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • Wario's air maneuverability makes him a harder target to hit in mid-air (both attacks and projectiles).
  • Bite is great at getting Doggy and does a lot of damage.
  • Bike can break set-ups fairly easy.
I don't have too much experience with this MU, sadly, as there aren't many Warios in my region, so I can't go so much in depth like others. So take my opinions with that in mind.

On Doggy's side, we have the advantage of not having to approach. Wario always has to be chasing us the whole time, which is nice. Unfortunately, Wario is great at this, as well as having lots of mix-ups options when it comes to Bite and Bike. Trick Shot should be used as both offensive and defensive options here, but I'll explain later. Clay Pigeon can be helpful, but I would avoid it unless you are sure you are going to land it. Simply put, the fat garlic man in a ballerina in the air, and can punish the end-lag both swiftly and "gracefully" (free wafts for days). Gunmen are a must, since they are the pretty much the only projectile that handles Wario on his bike consistently, as well as forces him to keep jumping, lest he get grabbed or allow us to set-up.

On Wario's side, Bike will be a major factor in the match. It will pretty much make or break him. Good bike control can easily make it though walls of projectiles and punish the lag from a gunmen if predicted correctly. Bad bike control means free Trick Shots. Bite is another tool that makes things annoying. That bad shielding habit will be very punishable, so mind yourself if you think he's getting close for a Fair, as the tables can turn very quickly. Waft is always there as well, and is an EASY option for Wario once doggy has to Up-B. That coupled with his great aerial movement and ability to recover from the depths of hell with his bike, waft, double jump and up B makes him seem Kirby-esque in in his mastery of the air...

y'know... a very farty, ugly, greedy Kirby...

It's hard to judge though, with my lack of knowing the MU well. On paper, it feels like this is a +2 for Wario, but I'll have to do some playtesting first before I make any final calls. However, I can say this is one of Doggy's harder MU's for certain, so stay on guard. I was knocked out of Winner's in my pool from CEO2015 from @TheReflexWonder, so perhaps he could help us out a bit?
 

WRECK-IT MUNDO

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
125
Location
Location
3DS FC
4811-8008-0796
NNID
warionino129
Wario can combo him, but Doge doesn't have to approach. Wario's bike is great and all, but perfect timed projectiles of Doge will knock Wario off. Try avoiding Wario if he's close by, Wario will most likely win. Wario's bite is hell for Doge, it can eat the projectiles and Doge himself wow (and that Doge has weird hurtboxes, makes it much more easier for Wario to eat Hot Doge). Doge has to many risky moves, which is good for Wario. 1 Wrong move and Doge flies away wow. Be careful if Doge is near the ledge with death % or like 110%~120% or more (depends on rage), Wario has a chance to grab doge and hit doge with his butt Fthrow and kill doge wow. If Wario jumps off his bike and the bike is coming in front of Doge, Doge must avoid using projectiles, the bike will go through Side/down B and It can reflect the Neutral B. Wario can gimp Doge offstage very easily thanks to Doge's Up B and it can hit Doge very easily with the Waft. I think this MU is for the WAH's favor.

 

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
164
I'll open up Wario Discussion now. (Even though Flynn was a bit quick on the trigger...)
I just saw Wario and thought it was open season. Figured if I was covering DK, might as well cover Wario.

I got in faster than Wario on a bike.

That said, picking up Wario last night to check, I have a minor revision on the fart thing - even at a low charge, if you get a good read and the opponent is something like 100-110%, you can KO them. I did a bad read of a full fart and missed, but after a short while, decided to chance it on an open read and do the fart again (it was second stage, very small) - gave a Falco an early flight lesson. Besides that, everything else I said stands - he's one of the few I fear as DHD.
 
Last edited:

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
Alright! Finally, for this week, we will be doing Pit and Dank Pittoo Dark Pit! They will be discussed together since the subforum for them is one and the same, since they are the same character, just with slight differences in tools (and Dark Pit is way cooler and 4edgey8me).

"GET OFF ME YOU POSER, YOU'RE CRAMPING MY STYLE! NO WONDER NINTENDO TOOK SO LONG TO REBOOT YOUR FRANCHISE!"

:4duckhunt:VS:4pit::4darkpit:

PROS! (For Doggy!)

  • Arrows are pretty slow (fire rate), as well as gunmen being able to tank them.
  • Very punishable recovery (Flight).
  • Slow aerial mobility means Trick Shot is harder to dodge.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • The Pits have no real large "weaknesses".
  • Their disjoints are better than ours (Dash Attack, Fair, Dair, U-Air, F-Smash, Up-Smash).
  • Multiple jumps allows for better mix-up options and baiting.
<3 the angel boys! One of my fave games is definitely Uprising, and they are also very fun to play in Smash! Unfortunately, I feel like this MU is not in our favor.

On Doggy's side, Trick Shot will most likely be your most useful of tools here. Reflects from the Orbitars are only really scary when you fling the can at them, so be mindful of that. Trick Shot can keep him grounded pretty well, and Gunmen help cover the ground options. Clay Pigeons are also helpful here, as they are pretty good for his Dash Attack approach, which I think is one of his best approach options, due to how fast it is, how far it reaches and how quickly it ends. His recovery from low should be easy enough to cover, since they have to go fairly deep in order to sweet spot the ledge, giving you plenty of time to get ready to stage spike or send out a nair/fair/option of your choice. If you are more confident, Bair or Dair would be the strongest, but Nair covers the most options. It won't gimp, but it's free damage and harassment.

On their side, they have no real weaknesses. They pretty much have a tool for every situation. None of them are "great", but the fact that they can adjust and fit into any scenario means a good mix up game is crucial. Arrow's aren't great, but they are free neutral game and harassment (can be used to disable Trick Shot). Orbitars aren't great, but they reflect reliably and can even block attacks to an extend. Flight isn't offensive, but gimping them isn't really an option. Arms are laggy, but have armor and great knockback, as well as flings away projectiles. This is a character that takes a page from Mario, master of nothing, but good at everything. Also, their disjoints are much better than ours. While most of the time, our out ranged theirs (just BARELY), the fact that the duck is also at hitbox means they will win most encounters up close. Multiple jumps are also fantastic. They can bait Doggy's risky options, as well as easily edgeguard Doggy. They have decent KO tools, as well as a KO throw (f-throw), so keep this in mind as well.

I'd give Doggy a -1 in this MU. The Pits have good tools at their disposal that inherently make them a bit better than Doggy's tools, but they don't give him an overwhelming amount of advantage, meaning with a good mix-up game, as well as knowing when to camp and when to go in, Doggies should be able to handle it.

I just dunno which version of Pit you would want against Doggy...
 

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
164
In the matchup, normal Pit is slightly easier (only because his side B has a slightly smaller hit area), but not by much. Assuming floating points are allowed, I'd only give Pit/Dark Pit a +0.5, and that's stretching it slightly.

Pit's main advantage isn't from his shield nor side-B (although it seems like it the way For Glory players spam the heck out of it), but the fact his aerial moves are multi-hit, which often frame traps DHD's forward and back air moves assuming Pit is on point with his offence. This nullifies a major moveset of DHD (which is often the forward air combo attacks and backair killing power). Not to say it can't be used, but a Pit who knows his sword reaches beyond DHD's is a hard one to hit except by surprise.

On the ground, Pit easily loses out - frisbee beats out arrow (either destroying it, missing it for a hit anyway or cancelling), and even if it didn't, frisbee then gunman (or frisbee then shield) assures it's nullified. His shield isn't much use either - it's slow on response and has a lot of end lag (and is very vulnerable to a dash attack).

The side-B is the only real ground KO threat (I'll cover the multi-hit attacks in a moment), which if it catches by surprise, can KO DHD pretty easily, because not only does it breaks all of DHD attacks... can-to-save doesn't work on it (deflects rather than explodes... erk)! That said, roll dodging, a well timed jump or a Pit with poor depth/range perception will all make it fall short, and it terminates early if it encounters gunman (which is a nice knowledge bonus) - however, as with all gunmen taking hits, being next to gunman (IE the same spot as deployment) results in the side-B still hitting you in termination phase.

Pit's issue on the ground is his multi-jab spinning spam moves of ultra annoyance (which break frisbees, combo locks and interrupts just about everything minus a can), which have very short end lag, which means even if you roll dodge the initial attack (assuming multi-hit doesn't hit the crippled roll dodge), he can quickly down-A if your light jab isn't fast enough.

His up-B also gives good air, along with jump capacity, so killing (which with DHD is difficult enough) is even harder.

Whilst this might sound like Pit has a winning combination, his moveset is stale: besides the arrow, all he has are multi-hit spinning spam sword slashes. Yes, he can shield and side-B, but the side-B is a given, the shield useless. Gunmen will bypass multi-hits easily, frisbees will interrupt if spammed timed right, cans that do the head drop trick (like used with Mario's cape) will bypass (except the shield, obviously), and assuming you keep him busy with projectiles, he won't have a chance for spinspam.


As for air time, his lightness and high air means he's easily killed by cans, and assuming you do it right, his low gravity (weight?) will mean juggling is easier. As it so happens, up-A air can sometimes beat out Pit's moves (which means you have a risk chance to KO an airborne character).


So he's 0.5 - but only due to shorter end lag and multi-hit attacks, which with good stage control and setup can be managed easily. Stale moves and poor range work against him here.
 

Wintropy

Peace and love and all that jazzmatazz~! <3
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
10,032
Location
Here, there, who knows?
3DS FC
1461-6253-6301
NNID
Winterwhite
I don't know the matchup very well, nobody in my scene is a Doggie, but I can help by sharing some details on how Pit works!

First off, we won't use Guardian Orbitars on a whim. We can be more open-ended with it in this matchup if Doggie plays the distance game, but if there's a chance of getting hit or grabbed when the shields drop, we won't risk it.

Upperdash is best saved for a Hail Mary kill option. A good Pit will keep the move fresh and wait until you're at death percents (in Doggie's case, 120% up is fair go), then punish a poor movement or shield-drop. It's a mixup / punishment tool rather than a straightforward heavy hit: don't expect us to go for the chase with it! If up-b is too predictable and we're near the stage, we can recover with it. Remember that it can reflect projectiles, but doing so stops the move in its tracks: that means that a good can or pigeon can intercept the recovery before it grabs the stage! This isn't fatal, because we can just up-b back when the endlag dissipates, but it can open up for an off-stage punish if you can predict up-b's trajectory.

Contrary to popular opinion, Pit has a few on-stage kill moves besides Upperdash: f-tilt has a sweetspot at the tip that can kill, we can use pivot f-tilt instead of a roll or spotdodge to punish; f-smash and u-smash have great kill power, but they're slow and need a good read to do the job; f-throw can kill at the edge when Doggie's at death percent and we have a bit of rage - since we're gonna make use of Pit's incredible grab game (dash and pivot grab work wonders), this is something to keep in mind! The drawback is that Doggie's great at zoning, so if we can't cover the distance, we can't finish the stock.

Oh yeah, something to remember: don't sleep on arrows! While arrows are pretty weak in neutral, due to the slow fire rate, fullhop arrows can neutralise this weakness (since the animation finishes before we touch down, there's no endlag) and we can fire a few arrows before we hit the floor due to multiple jumps. We can use the arrows to snipe cans from a distance if you get trigger-happy, but for the most part, we just use the arrows when you're in disadvantage to force an airdodge or rack up extra damage. More of an inconvenience than anything on-stage, but beware off-stage arrows gimps, the angels' secret weapon!

Overall, I think Pit has a very slight advantage in theory, but I can't say for certain that that's the case. It isn't a big advantage either way, but I think it's a matchup that keeps Doggie on its toes.
 
Last edited:

TMNTSSB4

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
15,502
Location
John Cena
3DS FC
3368-4469-9312
NNID
No More
Since Dark Pit is more offensive(by a tad bit)than both Pit and Duck Hunt, I think Doggie has an equal battle with Pittoo while Pit has the advantage in this MU. Duck Hunt is a character who's supposed to be defensive(but can also be aggressive at the same time)and can play keep away forever(watch Xanadu with them vs Pacman for example)until the character can get passed it all. Dark Pit could just use Electroshock over and over, but once super armor cuts off, pigeons and gunman and cans oh my. Pit on the othe hand, can also camp as much as Duck Hunt can. The arrows move way better and slowwe than Dark Pit's does, and Upperdash is useful incase doggie's up in the air and you want to give him his can back(let's face it, the Duck is pretty much making him do most of the work instead of helping the whole time, lazy duck). I wouldn't realy take my word for it since I play all 3 characters, and don't like fighting Pit nor Duck Hunt(ones my favorite and the other is just to adorable). Dark Pit I'll beat the living edge out of him anytime since he's worse than Pit.

Also, please don't put more adorable Pit X Dark Pit pics on our boards, bromance is a powerful thing in Nintendo.
 

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK 12

This week we will be talking about the King of Koopas, Bowser, attempting to take control over Crimea with Ike and talking about one more MU to be voted on! If nobody votes, it will be Lucas!


This is Doug Bowser. He was hired as Vice President of Nintendo of America. This isn't even a joke, his name is literally Bowser (no relation to the King of Koopas).

:4duckhunt:VS:4bowser:

PROS! (For Doggy!)

  • Bowser is a large, easy to hit target.
  • Projectiles shut down tons of his options and force him to approach.
  • Disjointed moves are great for keeping him away.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • Weak KO power = Rage for Bowser = easy KO's for him.
  • Bowser Bomb command grabs allow for deadly mix-ups.
  • Out-of-shield whirling fortress gives Bowser a decent option to get in on Doggy
I actually have a losing record against Bowsers (in tourney). 0-2 set count ;~; On paper, everyone would be like "Psh, easy match up for Doggy", but that's when the problems arise. Much like the Ganon MU, sleeping on him, taking bad trades and not playing careful can be really bad for Doggy. Keyword being "slept" on. Arrogant players tend to lose either way, but what to keep in mind is that Bowser doesn't need that much to win.

On Doggy's side, Trick Shot is a fantastic tool, since catching Boozer in mid-air is pretty easy. If forces shields on platforms and slows Bowser down a lot on the ground. Gunmen also slow down Boozer a ton and potentially shield poke on his giant body, and if not, can lead to easy grabs. Clay Pigeon can be great against Boozer if used at a safe distance where the punish for whiffing is small (late dash attack is the biggest risk I'd take against him), as it can lead to easy follow ups and more pressure. But spamming it here will get you KO'd very fast if you are not careful. When he does get in close, the disjointed moveset for Doggy is very nice as an escape plan, but don't try to fight with him one on one. His universal light armor and the fact that almost every trade works in his favor is not something you wanna mess with. Learn your BnB strings, and keep making space between the two of you.

On Boozer's side, he won't be dying any time fast. He's heavy and Doggy's KO ability is still as meh as ever. Which means he'll have lot of rage to work with. Plus with Doggy being on the lighter side of middle weight, he'll be in the air alot. Bowser bomb is also very important to keep in mind, considering it's a strong KO move and can be angled onto platforms. His throws can KO already, but that one in particular is a ridiculous one. Whirling fortress as well is a great move for punishing the smallest of whiffs, giving Bowser the thing he needs to get inside as well, so be mindful of playing safe.

I'd give Doggy a +1 in this MU. We have the advantage, definitely, but you HAVE to play safe and smart, otherwise this is easily in Bowser's favor. One punish is all he needs.
 
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,675
Location
Santa Ana, CA
Duck Hunt can be a troublesome character for Bowser. I did some playing/research on Doggy in the past, but I can't count on all that I remember to be correct. So please feel free to correct me on the details of Doggy's moves.

So if it's one thing I remember about Duck Hunt is how difficult it is to secure stocks. And if there's one thing I know about Bowser and his MUs, any character that has trouble taking stocks will have trouble doing so on Bowser. Our opponent starts making reads, gambles, and mistakes once they're frustrated. Bowser's weight lets him keep coming back against horizontal kill moves, but his average fall speed makes us die earlier to vertical kill moves. Duck Hunt has just one that's reasonable to land without some sort of read or trap, and that's Uair. Putting Bowser in any air situation where you can pressure him with that should secure a stock about as quickly as landing an Fsmash, your strongest move. And even then, you need about 130% on us for the kill.

When evaluating the neutral, you have to think about whether Duck Hunt could land about 130% worth of damage on Bowser, before Bowser lands about 100%. Our moveset lets us kill with just about any move if the right situation presents itself. We have a kill securing moveset that deals anywhere between 10-24% damage. Outside of this exists Bowser's Jab, a quick poking move that's scary to get hit with due to decent followup potential, and Fortress, which is mostly just there to deal with shield pressure. Taking away jab and Fortress for a moment, try to think about how much rage can effect Bowser's kill potential. We also reach further than you. Our punches and claw swipes make our limbs intangible for at least as long as the move's hitboxes are active. If only for a moment, our attacks are similar to those of swordsman characters. All of this information should tell you why challenging Bowser's moves with your own is dangerous unless you can put yourself in a clear advantageous position.

Of Duck Hunt's zoning tools, I's say that I fear Gunmen the most. It takes little time to spawn, and we don't have a clear indication of the precise point they fire. Duck Hunt mains do know that information. Furthermore, it fires horizontally along the ground, and Bowser likes the ground. It's the place where he can jab and poke, and get use out of his excellent running speed and punish tools. Trick Shot and Clay pigeon deal more damage, but are more predictable to shield/perfect shield, and can even be swatted out of the air if we had no other option.

But you should be using all your zoning tools. Bowser doesn't lose to projectiles in a linear fashion, but the hard truths are that he is a large target, he has an 8 frame jumpsquat, and the shield-walk means of approach is much slower on him. It takes about a full second for Bowser to reach max walking speed. We want to dash toward our opponent, but we can't pull up shield until we reach a full run. Impatient Bowsers lose to the likes of Duck Hunt, Villager, and the Links all the time. But if they have the sense to patiently approach, things get easier. Get as much mileage as you can out of your specials, but don't use them as a crutch. Don't rely too much on shield either. Our Side B grabs through shields, and Bowser Bomb breaks them entirely.

Other notes:
-Duck Hunt's recovery has no hitbox. We will gladly attack you if we can.
- If the tip of Bowser's jab connects, you can double jump to avoid followups. You can also use neutral B for an explosive means of resetting the situation.

I don't feel strongly about this MU either way. I never fought a Duck Hunt in tournament, nor one that realized they had a full repertoire of A moves and a grab game. No Bowser enjoys fighting characters like Duck Hunt, but you can bet we're well practiced at zone breaking and shielding since everybody wants us to approach.
 
Last edited:

Hitman JT

The Infinite One
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
1,120
Location
The Gates of Hell
3DS FC
1435-5432-6684
NNID
JT.Hitman
I've only ever fought one Duck Hunt offline. That was DunnoBro, and that was many many months ago before he went into his character crisis. I did fight his DH again more recently, but that was with customs so F that

Zapp Branniglenn Zapp Branniglenn covered pretty much everything except for how Bowser doesn't care about the follow-up shots of the clay pigeon. The initial hit must be shielded, but then Bowser can easily just run through and grab or kick the poor dog while he's still in cooldown. You'll have to be a bit more careful before throwing one out. If it's at point-blank range then prepare to die. We still have to respect your other projectiles though so go nuts.
 

Splooshi Splashy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2015
Messages
457
Location
Cawifohneeeya
3DS FC
4768-8534-8805
NNID
Splooshi_Splashy
Match Vid References:

SC2 - Megalex (Duck Hunt Duo, Ganondorf, Shulk) vs. Lkos (Bowser) - Grand Finals (Round 1 only): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnaW3RUqQUw

S@X SNR - Smash Wii U Customs - Dunnobro (3123 Duck Hunt (or was it 3113?)) vs Ash23 (1111 Bowser) - Losers Quarters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypapR1yL2bg

Godzrage [Duck Hunt] vs. Dr. Glawzer [Bowser] Money Match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjnBIHfeBig


Custom Loadouts:

*Cue Bowser's hardcore rockin' final fight song from the SMW2: Yoshi's Island OST (personally using WinAmp, SNESAmp, & the .spc file to make it seamlessly last for 9+ minutes), and hardcore rocks out while randomly interjecting 2I/3S/USF4 Yang-styled (EX) Mantis Slashes at various points, complete with the "HIE HIE, HIIIIE!"s and the "HAII HOOO HAIIII!"s, thinking that he's in some sort of hype combo video when he's actually not....*

"Why didn't I use that song for the Jr MU," I find myself wondering. Well, Jr doesn't get TOO much of a boost from Customs against us canines specifically (Only Side 3, the different Mechas depending on the stage (Side 2 is stage dependent as well to me personally, considering how much I want to treat it like Zard's Dragon Rush in terms of walk-off cheese KO power), and possibly Up 2 are what I personally recommended for Jr), and yet he goes either even or +1 against us, unlike King Dad, who normally struggles against us when stuck with Defaults to the point of +1 in DH's favor being a comfortably reasonable claim, as the above posts have firmly argued for, yet Jr's Dad gains MUCH speed & range from Custom Loadouts, potentially coming off as or even more mobile than his own son in the Koopa Clown Car, making +0 even a more likely outcome.

Thus, the Koopa King, like the upcoming Wii Fit Trainer & Charizard, is among those who become harder to fight with Customs On than without, so get ready for a more even fight, provided the Bowser player actually DOES put on Customs.


Bowser would likely run 2333 or 2331 or 2313 or 2311 or 1333 or 1331 or 1313 or 1311. Side 1 or 2 MIGHT be considered in place of any of the Side 3s prominently featured in all these decks.
Of these decks, I'd personally run 2333 or 2331.

Neutral 2, Fire Shot, pierces through our entire arsenal (it shatters non-shot-up Clays, pushes Cans, and OHKOs non-Mega Gunmen?? Megas are pierced as well.), and no matter how long it's held, it will NEVER have its range shortened. Its horizontal range is farther than Neutral 1's as well (it reaches 1/2 across FD), which makes it better for confronting our arsenal with. Luckily for us, our recovery is nowhere as gimpable by his Neutral B series as his own son's is post Up B. You'll probably only see him hold B long enough for 1 Fire Shot to come out, though considering what it can do to our arsenal, as well how long it takes for subsequent shots to come out, I'd say 1 at a time is enough.

Side 2, Dash Grab, boosts not only the horizontal range of its opening grab (it goes 1/3 of the way across FD, which is less distance than what Side 3 offers), but also the amount of distance he can travel horizontally (vertical distance is lowered) before body slamming you onto the ground. Its Bowserciding range is even better than Side 1's.... If it were as reliable as it was last year. If he DOES try to go for it, do all that you can to lame him out (Down 2 would be REALLY useful here, once the Tough Guy status wears off and Zigzag's nowhere nearby),
While we can mash jump around the point where Bowser SDs (IF we don't burn our 2nd jump when we get caught by this), Up 3's lack of horizontal range & Up 2's lack of overall range will both hurt us here if we can't reach the wall or at least be under the ledge after Bowser loses his stock for this, which creates a case for Up 1. O_O

Side 3, Dash Slash sacrifices his command grab for a far reaching single hit slash that quickly sends him halfway across FD, though the actual hitbox only lasts for 1/2 of the move, starting at the beginning. Once he's traversed 1/4 of the way across FD, he'll slide the rest of the way to the halfway mark of FD without any active hitboxes. Said slash will KO at 180+% near the edges if kept fresh, though that might be Training Mode's lack of accounting for stale-ing (I.E. This isn't really an early KO move unless we're at a walk-off near the edges). He can break Clay if it had JUST started up (as in, we don't get to shoot it up), but thankfully for us, this will generally get bopped by our arsenal...
One of the greatest benefits that this move offers Bowser is that if he short hops before using Side 3, he has NO landing lag, whatsoever, essentially allowing Bowser a way to approach you into whatever move he wants as soon as he lands, even on platforms. Just like in a traditional 2D fighting game! :D Anyways, the mixups he can generate with this are numerous and even frightening. In the rare instance where it doesn't get stopped by any part of our arsenal, he short hopped before using it, and he's very close to us when he lands...
(Please, Up 2 or Down 2! Help me escape from this moment!)

Up 3, Sliding Fortress, comfortably challenges default Clays & Cans better than any other attack in his arsenal (even Side 3!), because if it clanks with any part of our arsenal, he's pushed back enough for the shot-up Clay to miss him entirely, and it greatly speeds up his horizontal travelling speed just as much as Side 3 does, though it can send him whirring ALL the way from 1 edge of FD to the other edge of FD in 1 go when used on the ground. Its hitbox seems to go away, once he's made it 1/2 across FD using this, so if possible, take advantage of its lengthy cooldown time. Gunmen can beat this, though Quick Draw Aces seem to be the quickest version for doing so. It can launch us upwards with 1 hit, which is a dangerous place to be against him (invincible-on-shell USmash), but the move itself won't really KO us for quite a while after 100%. Unlike the Brown Cyclone, platforms will NOT reduce the recovery time on this move. Oh, and its vertical height is even lower than Up 1's, so he wouldn't really want to go too low for the edgeguard against us.

Down 3, Slip Bomb, sacrifices Down 1's anti-air capabilities (it doesn't hit on the way up, so we can stick out ANY attack and cleanly beat it out if we're in position to do so) and sheer early KO power for a faster start-up that has a wider floor range than Down 1. It'll reliably KO at 115+% at FD/Omegas unless proper DI is used, so it still has some good KO power (just not as much as Down 1). Its recovery is also quicker than Down 1's (coming down onto the floor with this is safer than with Down 1, also due to its faster start-up), which compliments the big draw for using this, which is that if you're nearby on the ground when he lands with Down 3, you'll be tripped. Is it techable? If it is, then that will be our best defense against actually getting tripped by it. If it is not, then depending how the both of you react, Custom Bowser will actually be one of the few characters that's capable of a hard enough knockdown to actually lead into okizeme--

(Actual oki from hard knockdowns in SM4SH!? Are you for real!? I thought those didn't exist here!)

*INB4 Diddy's Bananas, ROB's Slip Gyros, & Samus's Slip Bombs, and of course, Ganondorf's Side 1 if you DON'T tech it*

Anyways, be wary about how you recover from getting tripped by this move, because if Custom Koopa reads your getup option, you may get punished as strongly as an FSmash. Oh, and he can EASILY reach the topmost platform of DL64/Battlefield/Miiverse with this move, so if you're up there and he's directly below it, DO get ready for him to reach up there with it, and if he catches you up there with it at 100+%, without proper DI, you could lose your stock for it.

*Also now suddenly wants to rep Custom Bowser, even though his oki isn't as good as 2I/USF4 "Vortex Queen" Ibuki's*


We doggies will likely run 3122 or 3121 or 3132 or 3131 or 3112 or 3111. I'd personally run 3122.

Zigzag Can is our usual anti-air source of "20+% in 1 properly mashed go" damage on heavyweights that can KO folks very well at low ceiling stages. While Bowser does have a faster ground running speed than before (and an overall faster movement speed with his Custom Loadout), he's still a big body that is easily juggled by Zigzag, once we find an opening to do so.

While I may have crazy enough to suggest Clay Break against Triple D, Custom Bowser's too fast for that to be reliable. Rising Clay's payoff is too small as well.

Duck Jump Snag gives us an active hitbox on our way back to the stage, making our recovery more secure. It'll also help protect us against his Dash Slash & Sliding Fortress advances, as well as for whenever he gets too close for comfort, making it our Wakeup DP that could also help us out when we get tripped by your Slip Bomb, since it's active on frame 1.

DunnoBro HAS made Down 3 work in this MU, even though I'd personally rep Down 2 for its speed shots to challenge Custom Bowser's faster advances (when combined with Side 1, it may not be as slickly fast as Super Turbo's Old Sagat's Tiger Shots, but it'll do just fine here), so props to him for that. While Mega's looming wrath is a great supplement for Zigzag, I would make sure not to use Mega with the intention of trusting it to block off anything Bowser does like it would, oh say, Pac-Man's actual Fruits. All our Gunmen themselves get pierced by all of his moves anyways (not their shots though), so that's my other reason for repping Down 2 here.


Ratios:

WithOUT Customs: +1 minimum for us if we lame him out. 0 or worse if we rush him down. Basically the complete opposite of how our MU with his son goes.

*Cue "Telling the Truth 2007" from the Apollo Justice OST*
WITH Customs: 0 or possibly worse, even if we try to lame him out. For as much as I love Customs, even I'll have to admit that for as much hope as they give us against the likes of ChrisGer (3123), Sonic (3223), Little Mac (3222), Pac-Man (3123), and the Brown Cyclone (3111 or even 1111), sometimes that hope can flow more fluidly for some of our adversaries. Such is the price that we must pay when there's Customs on, an idea will surely rear its ugly head again when we get around to the likes of Wii Fit Trainer, Charizard, and especially Palutena. I'm a big enough fan of Customs that I'm willing to pay this price, just like spoilers & spoilers in akts 6 & 7 of "Guitar Ninjas" (aka Princess Tutu) when spoilers.

Plus, if either version of my DH gets decisively blown up by either version of Bowser, I can always go usurp his throne with Default or even Custom :4bowserjr:~ >:3
 

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
164
Bowser has the disadvantage easily, with the exception of his KO moves, which are dangerous if not properly micro-managed (his forward smash A and aerial moves can be pretty fatal - FSA at about 60%, aerial moves about 60-70%).

That said, when fighting Bowsers, I now switch to close range combat (say what?!) because I feel the projectiles are so disruptive to Bowser as to be unfair. How so?

Well, any time Bowser is open (IE attacking) a well placed frisbee sets up with the multi-shots all hitting, which leaves him so open as to assure even a forward air or dash attack without much fear of reprisal (although higher percent DHDs will want to avoid this because one stray punch can end your career). And even if Bowser recovers, a non-shot can will cover you well from any of his air attacks. Essentially, Bowser, in a projectile combo-lock game, won't even get a look in (that said, keeping projectiles erratic stops him from learning the shield game).

In terms of KO'ing Bowser, DHD has a number of options not immediately evident:
1) Down air on recovery. Like Ganon, Falcon, Little Mac, one well placed down air will end Bowser, and it works best during a horizontal recovery of whirling fortress (note: the tip must hit, but not the dog). This is even at low percents, so don't wait!
2) Canning him off-stage. Because of his size air dodging doesn't work if the can is dropped in his profile path, which means it's possible to can-combo even an air dodging Bowser off stage.
3) Forward smash A reading of landing. Bowser doesn't have the 'perfecto-roll-dodge' option like Lucas (that OP turd burglar!), meaning when rolling on stage from the edge, he's open game. Bowser is also less likely to get the slide glitch due to his size, and any air dodge landings can be capped likewise for the size reason.

DHD has several catches, though:
Forward smash A on Bowser is fast and dangerous. A DHD's top priority is percentage management, not aggression, because once you tick over onto 60%, you're open game to Bowser with his smash A.

You can't shield (yeah yeah, some people will say 'I shielded this and that' but overall it's bad). Don't even bother trying to shield a forward smash A, because Bowser wins out. Likewise with the Bowser bomb - if it isn't a perfect shield, your shield has good odds of shattering. As mad as it sounds, you're safer taking a Bowser bomb to the face (to the side of it is better), than a shield break that guarantees a forward smash A KO, because Bowser bomb doesn't KO until higher percentages than the smash forward A.

It's hard to unlearn, but once you realise you can only dodge, roll dodge and jump his attacks (you can safely shield light jabs and fire breath but if he switches out you're in trouble), you'll do well, which is why projectile defence is important.

Once you get the quick close range game down (light rapid jabs, very well timed grabs), you'll find Bowser easy to nonce. If you can beat DK, you can beat Bowser... and Bowser takes less percentage to be killed by DHD (but only by about 20-40%).

Doggy gets a +1 to +2, depending on the skill of the Bowser you're fighting. If he rarely uses smash attacks... you're good.
 

miniada

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
310
NNID
miniada
:4bowser:55:45:4duckhunt: duck hunts projectiles get beat out buy bowsers tilts and they don't do much damage anyway. bowser is heavy and duck hunt can't kill but bowser can. duck hunt has very laggy moves that bowser can punish easy bowsers favor.
 

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
Alright, Ike next!

No means no, Ike. Even from your friends.

:4duckhunt:
VS:4myfriends:
PROS (For Doggy)
  • Slower speed from means he's easier to wall out.
  • Always forced to approach.
  • Trick Shot seriously messes with Ike offstage.
CONS (For Doggy)
  • Ike's disjoints are ridiculous.
  • Way more KO power.
  • Ike's edgeguarding.
I won't say much about this MU because I've only ever fought an Ike in tournament once. Ever. Back in January. Plus, it was Ryo's Ike.

The MU feels even to me. Duck Hunt can wall out Ike easy on stage, but Ike's up close game is great. They both feel equally bad off stage, and Trick Shot is good at messsing with Quickdraw and covering the option. Going low is risk for both Ike and Doggy since they can both get gimped easily (though Ike's recovery just takes time getting used to, hitting him after he's tossed his sword is pretty deadly).

I'd rather though someone whose had actual experience talk about this MU though. I try not to count For Glory since it's one stage with randoms, and there are still very few Ikes on Anther's.
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,237
Location
Belleville, Ontario
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
NNID
TheNiddo
I've played absolutely zero DHs, so I'll just throw up a usual list of facts people normally don't know about.

- Ike's air speed actually isn't bad. Slightly better than Fox's even. Acceleration is not good, but max speed is.

-Ike's Dash -> Shield time is one of the best in the game. Yes those are in fact different from character to character, depends on their dash animation.

-Be careful about using projectiles while you're in Ike's massive Dash Attack range. If it hits both DH and a projectile at the same time, DH will be hit twice for 24% damage. And you can't clank out the attack. And its range is roughly half of smashville when you include the step forwards within the attack itself.

-Ike's Uair is just about Rosaluma tier. And we can true combo into it at kill percents out of Uthrow. Or just bait out an airdodge and punish it. In this MU, going for the much easier to land Fair out of a throw to knock DH off stage will probably happen a lot. Because then you're Eruption bait with a recovery with no hitbox and no great way to stall your timing.

-Don't know much about DH's options for getting back up onto the ledge but uh I can't image them being very good against Ike? If we didn't have time to Eruption you, Utilt or a SH Nair can cover pretty much all options from the ledge when spaced correctly.

-Speaking of spacing: Nair is -2 on shield when spaced perfectly. Very difficult to space it that well, but its not a free punish if we're spacing it. If we're hitting your shield with the hilt then ya punish away.

-Keep in mind Ike can recovery from fairly high up with QD in terms of releasing and landing without lag. DH is probably one of the better characters at harassing Ike offstage safely though. Just don't get greedy and go deep otherwise Aether will screw you over.

-Nair, Dtilt, Uthrow, Dthrow all lead into a lot of combos. Dthrow is also a kill throw once Ike gets some rage going and uh, given DH's lack of killing options that's probably going to happen.
 

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
164
Ike has a massive advantage. Not quite in the 'can't touch this' Little Mac tier, but as Nid says, Rosalina-esque - if you don't have any counter techniques, prepare for pain.

1) Ike moves do huge chunks of damage, anywhere between 10-25% a hit. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that...
2) Ike launches DHD at about 80% easily. So in 4 hits, you're often in KO range.
3) The sword acts almost as '360 noscope' as Shulk or Link's, and the range it offers outmatches all A moves bar forward smash.
4) The '360 noscope' means he will break and deflect projectiles in most attacks. Think 'return-to-sender' cans and disappearing frisbees.
5) His sword powers through most attacks, meaning you can't trade off or even out-speed.
6) His up-B has super-armour, which completely nullifies cans and trashes any projectile ledge setups or spike attempts.
7) His sword goes through the stage with his up-B, meaning you'll get punished for a spike setup or projectile setup.

Ike is one of the characters I think need to be fixed/tweaked (the others being Rosalina, Sonic, Little Mac, Lucario and Greninja. Ugh.). Mainly because all of his moves have early launch potential. No fun for DHD. He's very much a 'one mistake and you die' for DHD.

That said, Ike does have some flaws: if Ike miscalculates his recovery (premature up-B or a side-B that misses it's target or falls short), it will kill him with little remorse (you'll get no sympathy from up-B). Assuming you're insanely good with reads, you can down air his side-B (but out of countless attempts I've only done it once). You can much more easily block his side-B with a can by hovering near it - which can either early exit it (if it deflects) or explode (if it hits his head).

1) Ike's side-B can be thwarted with frisbee, gunman and can (which will exit early but he'll unlikely take damage), assuming you don't sit next to the frisbee/gunman/can (and you shield the can on deflect). Alternatively...
2) You can just shield bait his side-B and convert it into a free grab.
3) Or if your shield is depleted, you can just jump over it so he has to execute the move - and if it's done early enough, this sets up nicely into a frisbee punish on landing.
4) Ike's moves might overpower DHD's moves, but their long delay makes him vulnerable to grabs instead, which completely interrupt risk-free. If they fail, they convert into a free shielding. Win-win.
5) DHD's with a keen eye can insert frisbees on very open swings, which sets up a nice punish and interrupt.
6) Ike's up air is pretty broad and dangerous, but his air game, if he doesn't hit the can, is vulnerable to being blown up.
7) Layering projectiles will often keep Ike interrupted, in a sorta Bowserish fashion - except Ike has a smaller profile, moves faster, hits harder and interrupts the projectile if he gets a move in.
8) Light rapid jabs work here, but if he executes a move prior to it's start it will be overridden in most cases. Not fun.

That said, Ike's ability to KO early plays to his favour and I'd have to give him a +1 to +2. I'd much rather fight Ike than Rosalina (and Rosalina rather than Little Mac), but he's a dicey risk: it all boils down to DHD's defensive technique. If DHD can properly shield the sword slashes, grab at the openings, frisbee the vulnerabilities and nullify the side-Bs, he's good: if he makes one mistake at 80%, he's toast.
 
Joined
Aug 8, 2015
Messages
56
Location
South Florida
3DS FC
2122-8762-7129
NNID
Yung-Lamppost
I'm too lazy to go into full explanation but I'll definitely admit that Ike has the upper hand in this match up.
Even though he's quite underrated Ike has quite formidable speed and still has the KO power of other heavy characters. I agree with J Joshua Flynn and give Ike the +1 to +2 here
 
Last edited:

PyroTakun

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
306
Location
Seattle, WA
NNID
Ta-kun
I've played against Dunnobro's DHD a few times, but that was a couple patches ago.

I do remember the rotation of projectiles being annoying. If I wasn't approaching optimally, I was getting hit with something, the can being the worst (I think it combos Ike if it's timed right). Once I got in as Ike, the only thing I was really concerned about was getting grabbed and thrown back to neutral.

We both did a lot of chasing eachother off-stage, which I think works out for both characters if you just time your moves right. N-Air for DHD and F-Air or D-Air for Ike.

I know it's all broad and general information. If I play Dunnobro again I'll update with specifics.
 

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
Hey everyone, we'll be starting the new MUs soon. I just had to step away from the boards for a while, take a little break.

This week will be Lucas, to make up for missing last week's third post, and 2 more MU's. What do you guys wanna talk about?
 

Perris6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
220
Location
Florida
Should probably talk about a few of the characters who will, if they haven't already, make a buzz in the metagame. I was thinking sheik, Zss, metaknight. If we haven't already.
 
Last edited:

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
701
Location
Orlando
3DS FC
5343-7751-0954
NNID
The-Wispy
Should probably talk about a few of the characters who will, if they haven't already, make a buzz in the metagame. I was thinking sheik, Zss, metaknight. If we haven't already.
We have talked about those already, while I am open to rediscussion, I'd like to hopefully all the characters once before we start those debates again.
 
Top