Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion

[Raziek]

Sure, there's always time to find an opening to sneak one through.

Easiest way is to kill a gunman with Elthunder, then throw it. Alternatively, charge cancel shenanigans.

You can also use them as a free approach tool, which is honestly their main use.

 

[Croi]

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything Raziek has said, he doesn't really touch on how Duck Hunt may be able to capitalize the MU.

Duck Hunt and Robin are all about controlling the stage and engaging when their traps are sprung. Robin is really only good at that with Arcfire and Arcthunder, and Arcthunder is stuffed by all three of DH's projectiles; Elthunder hits too quickly for Robin to follow up out of it. Gunman is really good for pressuring Robin particularly because he can tank Arcfire (and even counterattack if the gunman in particular is fast enough), allowing for DH to escape, and a Gunman plus a Can plus yourself is a great combination to make sure they can't just sit still and charge Thunder.

We'd much rather fight Robin in the air, mostly because we have an easier time controlling airspace than she does. By which I mean: while her aerials are strong and sweeping, covering huge areas around her, the Can allows for forcing an option and capitalizing on that, and she has no particularly safe long-range aerial game like we do. Her airspeed is decent, and Elwind is a great panic option, but it's not enough to escape our equal-if-not-better airspeed and our own disjoint if we can force something out of her.

Duck Hunt is hardly afraid to box: our jabs both come out on frame 4, although hers is more disjointed, being a sword. Our ftilt and dtilt are great pokes with great disjoint, and our utilt is useful in that it's a move as opposed to Robin's limp noodle swing. While Duck Hunt has no kill throws or guarantees, he has 0-to-40 throw setups, and unlike Robin, Duck Hunt is a Jedi when it comes to grab range. Like Raziek said, the Can is our only real defense option if she's juggling us, but that's a whole lot better than most characters can say anyway: I'd rather take 8% from my own Can than another 24% from two Levin fairs.

And I'd argue that Duck Hunt's on-stage edgeguarding is about as good, if not better than Robin's. While it's true that Arcfire covers most options/Duck Hunt has no options on the ledge, it's a perfectly valid option to just stay on the ledge and let it burn out and then react to what comes next, or to try and evade it by dropping down and grabbing it again (particularly since, if Robin is spacing Arcfire correctly, she won't have the run speed to punish our regrab before we can buffer a roll or something, and if she goes ham with a dair or something and it doesn't pay off, now she's offstage instead).

Duck Hunt, however, has the whole package: a correctly-spaced Can will force an option, because the alternative is to hang there and take it. Can covers the jump and the nothing; Disc covers the get-up and the roll; Gunman covers the attack and the roll; and Duck Hunt covers everything. Of course, it's not very likely that you'll have all three projectiles out and ready to cover everything, but my point is, his pressuring game is SSS+ tier.

Offstage, yeah, Duck Hunt is gonna get bodied. Your best hope is to throw out a Can and try to recover with it: even if you have to take the extra 8%, it's at least not likely that you'll die from it. Up B actually has a fair amount of distance to it, so otherwise your hope is to try and juke Robin by fading away or something, but don't expect miracles.



All this said, Raz was right that it's going to come down to who gets the kill first. Duck Hunt has a slight edge in the neutral game, but Robin's own projectiles, her lingering hitboxes, and with how quickly her aerial kill moves come out, make approaching with our own kill moves a nightmare. Her ****ty run speed doesn't mean jack when our smash attacks, as strong as they are, aren't safe on shield (and remember, at 90% she only needs one grab) and can fail on hit because of reasons. We have no guarantees out of throws. Our best options are to pressure a response and capitalize, or to keep throwing Cans until it kills eventually. Our offstage game isn't even all that impressive: our hitboxes are too precise to track Robin's sweeping momentum with Elwind, save for nair, and if you don't sweetspot nair, you're really only making things harder on yourself (unless she just so happens to run out of Elwind).

I don't know about -1.4 or whatever, but it's at least a -1 for Duck Hunt. We both specialize in pressure and traps; Duck Hunt is a little better at racking up damage; Robin is a lot better at killing.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I think many of you are significantly overrating Robin's difficulty of getting in in the neutral game. Although she is indeed the slowest runner, Robin is not attempting to get in via the ground. Robin is trying to get in via the air, and her airspeed is not bad. She is tied with Marth & Lucina for airspeed.

I actually think the fact that Robin has to get in via the air is why Duck Hunt wins. Duck Hunt is excellent at controlling aerial space and actually has a harder time against characters with fast runs and quick rolls. While Robin's air speed isn't bad, it's merely average.

I also noticed you said that Duck Hunt doesn't have a disjoint to combat Robin in the air. If I'm not mistaken, DH's fair is disjointed and actually has more horizontal reach than any of Robin's aerials. Could be wrong on this though.

 

[WispBae]

I also noticed you said that Duck Hunt doesn't have a disjoint to combat Robin in the air. If I'm not mistaken, DH's fair is disjointed and actually has more horizontal reach than any of Robin's aerials. Could be wrong on this though.

The range of Doggy's Fair vs Robin's Fair is a bit of a redundant argument. If you wanted to measure them, they have ABOUT the same range (give or take a few pixels). The issue though it that the duck is not a truly disjointed hitbox. It reaches far, but damage done to the duck counts as a hit on Doggy. So Robin can space Fairs a bit better than Doggo. They can still trade, sure, but if she starts drifting back while Fair'ing, you're Fair is likely to cause you to take damage. Does that make sense? It's disjointed in the fact that it has excellent poking ability, but not "truly" disjointed.

Our next MU for this "week" (I have the longest weeks) will be Doc, as requested by Lampost! I'll put the bookmark now in case anyones wants to start the discussion on him, and I'll put my two cents later.

20 minutes into ICU and chill and he gives you this look.

 

[Raziek]

I actually think the fact that Robin has to get in via the air is why Duck Hunt wins. Duck Hunt is excellent at controlling aerial space and actually has a harder time against characters with fast runs and quick rolls. While Robin's air speed isn't bad, it's merely average.

I also noticed you said that Duck Hunt doesn't have a disjoint to combat Robin in the air. If I'm not mistaken, DH's fair is disjointed and actually has more horizontal reach than any of Robin's aerials. Could be wrong on this though.

Duck Hunt is awful at air-to-air'ing Robin from anywhere but directly below her.

 

[Shady Penguin]

Duck Hunt is awful at air-to-air'ing Robin from anywhere but directly below her.

Interesting to know.

I still wouldn't say Duck Hunt loses the match-up, but it wouldn't blow my mind if he did.

 

[crashbfan]

 

[Raziek]

I play this matchup rather often.

Duck Hunt's fair is rather inconsequential in the aerial spacing game.

You can claim otherwise if you want, but it's in direct contradiction to my practical experience.

 

[[SKS] Yung Lamppost]

Duck Hunt's fair is rather inconsequential in the aerial spacing game.

Just to make sure, you're saying it's inconsequential in the m/u against Robin right?

 

[Croi]

Duck Hunt's fair is rather inconsequential in the aerial spacing game.

I don't know if I'd say that...

These are both of their fairs at their very maximum distance. In terms of spacing, they're about tied. They're both disjointed. Robin's wins because hers is a kill move, does more damage, and is a sweeping hitbox, but when it comes to spacing, Duck Hunt's is still pretty sweet.

Also, Robin's max distance fair hits on frame 13; DH's hits on frame 9. Suck it down!!!!

 

[Raziek]

Just to make sure, you're saying it's inconsequential in the m/u against Robin right?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

 

[[SKS] Yung Lamppost]

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

Well as Croi said, Robin does have the advantage of killing, doing more damage, and having a sweeping hitbox but that shouldn't rule out the fact that his fair can still keep up in terms of spacing.

 

[Perris6]

I agree with Croi it's just that the duck counts as a hurt box. I play this matchup almost all the time (not saying I'm an expert) and it's not too hard for the Dog. I would even go as far as saying that DH wins the mu, not by a big margin. Our mobility and ability to pressure/trap the opponent is better than Robin's. Ledge pressure, projectiles faster, mobility better, grab better, Robin just kills easier and has better kill setups +1 for Duck Hunt imo....... so Doc now?

 

[Perris6]

Didn't mean to double post, sorry #NewPhoneIssues

 

[[SKS] Yung Lamppost]

Alright, so in regards to Doc, I think this match-up should be played pretty similarly to how we should play against Mario. I think, however, that it should be played more carefully since Doc has more killing power than his counterpart. This means we should be careful spacing our moves on his shield due to his sweet-spot on F-smash & OOS Up-B and try to be careful when we start going in on him. On the bright side, he has a recovery that's easier to gimp than Mario's so we can benefit off early kills. I also want to say something about the cape, but I'm not too sure if it's different from Mario's. Overall I'd say this match-up is about 0 or +1 for us provided we can gimp him early and take the lead.

 

[crashbfan]

 

[[SKS] Yung Lamppost]

I think it is a disjoint. I never get hurt from the extension of the duck from aerials. If it really is a hurtbox, it certainly helps that it clashes with everything.

It's a hurtbox

 

[Perris6]

I think it is a disjoint. I never get hurt from the extension of the duck from aerials. If it really is a hurtbox, it certainly helps that it clashes with everything.

I've been hurt because of the extension of the duck and also grabbed because of it. So I'm pretty sure it's a hurtbox

 

[Perris6]

In regards to Doc I agree that we should play this matchup similarly to the MU with Mario with less respect to Doc's aerials. You want to pressure Doc with well spaced Bairs and Fairs and try to get him off stage. Doc is not as fast as Mario, use this to your advantage. If you're in a tough spot run, and get out of there, then proceed to set up traps etc. Pressure Doc when he's off stage and gimp him. He suffers from the same thing Mario does......spacing. If you can space your aerials correctly the Doc player will have a lot of trouble. He also doesn't have much kill set ups so look out for random smashes. Like I said in this mu if you do a good job with keeping your distance you should win.
+1 for Doggy

 

[WispBae]

VS

PROS! (For Doggy!)

• Outrange Doc with aerials and tilts.
• Outmanuver him by a bit.
• Has trouble with dealing with traps, similar to Mario.

CONS! (For Doggy!)

• Doc still has no glaring weaknesses, save a lame recovery.
• Much stronger and can KO quite quickly.
• Doc Up-B is a fantastic move to stop combos that are not true and a KO move.

Many are quick to dismiss Doc as quickly as Lil Mac, which is a problem considering he's still Mario, just less agile, with much more knockback and a few quirks to keep in mind. Calling any MU free is honestly a bad habit, as you are not taking into consideration the skill of the player in mind. Doc is not free, and if you don't know how to deal, you will get 0-2'd VERY quickly.

On Doggy's side, we out range Doc with most of our moves, meaning the poking game is a go. Feel free to abuse the fairs. We also can out run Doc quite well, making sure he pretty much always has to approach. Take advantage of your movement, and F%$* people calling you lame for it, it's all about the victory. Doggo is all about that zoning, hit-and-run style. Traps are always helpful in all MU's, but you can afford to be a bit more aggressive with your cans and gunmen here, since Doc is a bit on the slower side. I would avoid clay pigeon spam as always, but especially against Doc, who has a reliable sheet reflector.

On Doc's side, he's still Mario. Never forget that he is still based on a character with great frame data, just take away a bit of maneuverability and add a bit of power. The lame recovery is important to take advantage of, but Docs will usually play around that, play more defensive and in a safer manner. We also have to take into consideration that Doc is very strong. He racks up damage easy and gets KO's early. You can't sleep on him being slower, since he really does only need 1 good hit to end a stock, usually starting at around 90% (and lower with rage). I also mentioned a quirk to consideration earlier, and this is Doc's Up-B. It's a KO move and has armor on it. It barely helps him recover, but it helps against combos that are not true, and can be his saving grace against predictable attacks (for example, an unsafe fair approach could be your stock with one Up-B).

I'd give this MU a +1 for Doggy. The trade off in mobility I would say works in Doggy's favor, but you have to now keep in mind of how strong Doc is. Treat it like the other heavy MU's: Play safely, and don't take huge unnecessary risks unless you absolutely for sure that you won't get dunked on for it not panning out.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Alright, I'm not going to give ratios as I lack experience outside of a general scope so I'm just going to be as helpful as I can and list things that Doc has that's relevant in this MU.

- A better reflector than Mario (it's active for 2 more frames and does not stall, meaning if you're trapping landing with a projectile you have to be wary of this option)
- A better short hop game, so mind your grounded approaches (whatever those may be).
- Stupid anti air USmash that also kills RIDICULOUSLY early. DHD is a middleweight so it's a BIT less daunting but mind your stage position in this matchup (as you would any other).
- Landing next to Doc's shield with a falling aerial is, very predictably, a bad idea. Crossing up I would normally suggest but the world is cruel and he can B reverse his Up+B on startup so if Doc runs after you and shields as you come down (a trick Nairo made great use of in his set against ESam) try and reset to the ledge.
- USmash can cover 2-3 ledge options at once, ledgeroll is often the best choice in this scenario if you see USmash coming, ledgedrop can also be good.

Additionally, Doc Up+B does not have armor on it at all, it's just ridiculously fast for an OoS kill move, very uncharacteristic of this game but it is a part of the character. This is just basic advice, if you want my matchup number I can give it although I don't feel 100% qualified to speak of this in that specific of a manner. This is just general stuff I can point towards to help you in taking down this (very) underrated character.

 

[WispBae]

The lack of Doc feedback was disappointing, but 'tis the fate of the many underrated characters in SSB4 (we doggies know this feeling well).

Ah well, let's move on to the next MU's!

Alright! Week 16! Whatcha guys feeling?



I'm still all for Palutena and Robin discussion, or if not Robin, maybe Wii Fit or Falco. Thoughts?

Alright, what's next? We seem to be winding down, the list, so I'll vote for Marth/Lucina and Falco.

 

[Splebel]

Hey the Pac-Man boards are discussing Duck Hunt if you want to contribute.
http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-...cussing-duck-hunt.423668/page-2#post-20551481

 

[Perris6]

The lack of Doc feedback was disappointing, but 'tis the fate of the many underrated characters in SSB4 (we doggies know this feeling well).

Ah well, let's move on to the next MU's!


Alright, what's next? We seem to be winding down, the list, so I'll vote for Marth/Lucina and Falco.

I agree on those two picks. Falco is an mu that a lot of DH players struggle at

 

[WispBae]

HEY LET'S REVOTE.

I basically ditched the thread because of the holidays and personal stuff. But the holidays are over now, so let's get to it!

Here were the options:

These are the MU's we've yet to talk about. I still retain my vote for Falco and MarthCina.

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

I'll second that vote for Marthcina and good ol' Flaco, primarily because people at my locals have started picking the bird up and I'm finding it weird to adjust...

 

[[SKS] Yung Lamppost]

I suggest Falco and Cloud for discussion due to Falco getting more usage and Cloud being very popular at the moment

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

*Cue "Gathers Under Night... (Character Select)" by Raito from the UNDER NIGHT IN-BIRTH Exe:Late [st] OST*

Voting for , the other avian who folks have finally started picking up after the rather negative "Neither as OP in Melee or even as good as in Brawl or even PM? PASS! >:<" 1st impression from before one of last year's patches, and the fanboy-rallying FF7 lead who I STILL canNOT believe is even playable here at all (a statement I'm STILL throwing out for Ryu and the upcoming Bayonetta), despite actually NOT being a stranger to fighting games, (Even before Dissidia, he's had Ehrgeiz: God Bless the Ring under his belt). (As an aside, when's he going to show up in one of the Weekly online Conquests? It's been 4 weeks since his release, and he's not shown up within the 3 Conquest Weeks so far.)

If it's still too soon for Cloud to be on the table for discussion, then maybe ?

 

[WispBae]

Alright let's get this party started!

VS

PROS! (For Doggy!)

• Most moves outrange Falco's.
• Trick Shot against Falco is very annoying to him when trying to recover.
• Baited reflector usage means hencanMt refelct most items safely.

CONS! (For Doggy!)

• Reflector on imobile Trick Shot can "diable" the projectile.
• Flaco KO's better than Doggy.
• Flaco can go pretty far offstage for easy edgeguarding.

I'll add my lil block of text later! Go go go!

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

Dog & Bird vs BIG bird, eh? Ok... lemme search my feelings on Falco. Hmmmp.


Pro's for Dog

• Falco lacks the same level of approach game Fox has, obviously due to his slow nature.
• It's harder for Falco's laser to shut down Dogs projectiles, due to THEIR slow nature.
• It's just easier setting up against Falco in general (compared to Fox)
• Falco's aerial approaches have high landing lag, so punishes are more doable should they whiff.

Con's for Dog

• UNLIKE Fox, Falco's not afraid to go offstage for the kill (like WispBae said)
• Falco's f-air when he starts it up will tear through anything Duck Hunt wants to throw at him.
• Like WispBae said again, can gets shutdown on the ground by Falco's reflector. And there's nothing stopping him from throwing it out repeatedly.
• Lasers that do connect with Duck Hunts stuff destroy them pretty quickly.

So, first off, definitely the MU I prefer out of Falco/Fox. Falco's approach game seems limited. He's slow enough that most of Duck Hunts projectiles can be set up before he gets near Duck Hunt, despite lasers/reflector easily shutting them down. Falco's air game approach seems better, but I feel like if there's anything Duck Hunt can do right, it's stage control.

Falco's aerials are much better than ours. With Falco's Nair coming out on frame 3 and covering most of his body, it's difficult to challenge him with aerials of our own. Also, the one solace we have against Fox where he won't risk going offstage most of the time to intercept you sadly isn't the case here. Falco can easily cut through us with fair. It's much harder returning to the stage against a good Falco.

I think this MU is even, maybe 45:55 in Falco's favour, so a 0 to this MU. Tha's just my feelings on it.

 

[WispBae]

This isn't an MU I've faced much at all to be frank, apart from the random pocket Falco on SmashLadder. I won't say too much since I don't know what I could offer. However, I do think this MU is decent for the Doggo, since Falco has to approach and does so a tad slower than others can. His ground speed isn't stellar, nor is his air speed. The real come from when Falco has you on the ropes, due to his control of the air, strong aerials pretty good (but predictable) recovery. Especially since he now has tools to get 50/50's off up throw and can frame trap reliably with Fair.

I'd prefer to ask a Falco expert, to be frank. =\

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

*Cue "Bad Bird Rag" from the DKC2 OST*

Match Vid references (top is most recent):

https://youtu.be/syTycGK5ybA?t=7m4s
Smash 4 Weekly #10 Losers Round 2 SA Cruzin (Duck Hunt) Vs KetchupMan7 (Lucina/Falco) [2nd Match Only]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=begBFLY7B3U
Psi Power (Falco) vs CWS (Duck Hunt) @ Next Gen Sm4sh 30!

https://youtu.be/QKVCumGcwAc?t=12s
S@X Wii U 107 - Guy (Duck Hunt) vs McDareth (Falco) - Smash 4 Losers Bracket [1st Match only]


*Cue "Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird ~ Till When?" (aka, Youmu Konpaku's Theme) from the Touhou 7.5: Immaterial & Missing Power OST*

(FINALLY, an actual avian to shoot down today! Sure, there was that royally stout penguin earlier, but unlike him, we've got an Arwing pilot on our sights today who's NOT going to get lamed out by us THAT easily!)

Which is a bad thing for you, since due to both his not-as-fast-as-recovering-from-as-it-used-to Blaster (Even Neutral 2) and his bulldozing Reflector (Void is the most useful of the 3, IMO), you'll likely have to actively engage him upclose at various points, where he'll generally have the faster buttons to press in comparison to you. Your crawl does not lower your profile enough to go under any of his Blaster shots if he's standing at FD. Thankfully, your DTilt DOES go under one Neutral 1 shot & a few Neutral 3 shots, but it'll get blown up by a Neutral 2 shot. If he's close enough to you when he catches you throwing out a Can, it's ripe for Reflection, so it'll likely hit you and create an opening for him to get in on you, or at least step closer to you.

(If he DOES get in on me, what's some of the worst he's got against me?)

What's especially notable is his 2 frame Jab that only your Wakeup DP, Up 2 (DJS), can reliably compete with in terms of sheer start-up speed. Neutral 1 COULD work, but Can would have to either NOT be out already, or close by to him when he closes in. Your 4 frame Jab is probably going to lose to his Jab, due to the speed difference, which is big enough that AS Falco, I've been able to outjab a Yoshi AND a ZSS at the same time during an FG Teams session. Said Jab even has a little bit of an anti-air range to it, so do be wary about recklessly jumping in on him. I'd normally be including "without your arsenal out there," but both Blaster & Reflector can somewhat deter those if said tools aren't baited & punished. Oh, and due to Falco having one of the faster walking speeds amongst the cast (10th place according to http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Falco), walk-up Jab/FTilt (Its range is surprisingly good for how quick it is, including when Pivotted w/ C-Stick set to Attack\Tilts)/Shield/DTilt (if kept fresh, without any DI on your part, this will KO you at 140+%) is a potent advancing/punish option, as is walk-up Smash Attack (fastest being DSmash at 7 frames, strongest being upclose FSmash) at KO percents.

(At least this isn't Melee, PM, or even Brawl Falco we're talking about today. Otherwise, you probably would've already been claiming that my MU with him is -1 in favor of him MINIMUM!)

Because this is Sm4sh Falco, I've claimed it to be 0/Even during 2015's Matchup Chart Project. I still think so.... IF it's Defaults Only.

Anyways, at least you outrange him in the air with your FAir and even BAir (unless Customs are on and Falco's running Down 3, Reflector Void, in which case, you don't even get THIS advantage, especially since Void's KO power exceeds your FAir!), so that's probably where you'll want to be against him when melee-ing him. As TheWorstMuppet mentioned earlier, getting too close to Falco in the air is where he wants us, because his 3-frame NAir & 4-frame BAir (the KO power on that is amazing here, especially when edgeguarding, Jump Out of Shielding (OoS), & Reverse Aerial Rushing (RAR-ing) with it!) outspeed our own 6-frame NAir, making panic/mashed (fastfall) NAirs (one of my personal favorite options, btw~) not the greatest of ideas (Mashing Neutral 1 would be better in this instance, IMO). His FAir can drill through our pre-Up B recovery options, due to its slightly disjointed beak, its rather circular range around him, and long active frames that can punish read/poorly timed airdodges. Speaking of his FAir, the landing lag on it DOES lower his profile a bit, so do be wary about using high-aiming attacks to punish him for that, as well as potentially-mashed-out Jabs after recovering from that. His FAir is also a surprisingly good tool for playing footsies against us with, due to the previous sentence, as well as it auto-cancelling when Full-Hopped, provided that it's not getting outranged by your FAir & BAir.


*Cue the Touhou 10.5: Scarlet Weather Rhapsody OST rendition of "Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird ~ Till When?", which is FAR more lively in comparison to the IaMP version*

This song would fit Melee Falco or even PM Falco much better, given how much faster those incarnations are in comparison to how he is here. We're not exactly like Youmu Konpaku ourselves either, since we're closer to being like Alice Margatroid, soooo....

Custom Loadouts:
As alluded to earlier, this is where Falco gets better, though not exactly in the same way that he was in both Melee & PM. The likely decks would be the xx23 or xx33 series. I personally would pick 2333 as Falco, but the more likely picks would be 1123, 1133, 2x23, 2x33, 3x23, and 3x33.

Down 3, Reflector Void, will be one of Falco's best moves for this MU, despite having our entire arsenal for him to wade through, due to not only its ability to bulldoze through our arsenal and into us in 1 go, but the KO power of Void itself is easily the greatest of the 3 Reflectors, especially since it has the furthest horizontal range among his KO options (moreso than Side 3, even). It's also disjointed to such an extent that DH's FAir & Up 2 will lose to it. Thus, in the event that Customs are somehow on (I.E. If EVO 2016 puts them back on....), Void is what I would expect to see the most from him, out of all parts of his Custom Loadouts.

Up 2, Fast Fire Bird, speeds up his recovery (gimping him out of this move is harder than Up 1) at the cost of reduced travelling distance & damage-building power (the lowest of the 3 Up B moves). Much like when we run Up 2, walls would be very desirable for him to have if he runs this.

Up 3, Distant Fire Bird, boosts his travelling distance (Half of FD) & damage-building power (the highest of the 3 Up B moves) at the cost of slowing down his recovery. Feel free to challenge this move off-stage, since it doesn't have a hitbox until he actually starts moving in a direction, and even then, unless the beginning of the actual moving part of the attack connects for a potential stage spike, you're not really going anywhere. NONE of his Up Specials can KO with anywhere NEAR the impunitively cheesy power of Fox's Up 3, Twisting Fox (which I personally find to be REALLY cool & hype, since it can function as Zard's Side 3 at seemingly ANY border, including the Top Screen Border), so we canines can rest easy on that front.

I personally prefer Neutral 2, Explosive Blaster, the most for this MU, due to how it generally passes through DH's entire arsenal (even Mega Gunmen!), though without damaging any part of that (until it stops and explodes, that is), and its travelling range will always be at a little bit past 1/4 of FD. It's possible that either this or Neutral 3, Burst Blaster (essentially Fox's Default Blaster), will show up as counter-picks against Mega Gunmen, so our own Down 3 might not be the most worthwhile of moves to run here (it can handle Falco's Neutral 1 & 3 better than his Neutral 2, at least).
Neutral 2 also boosts the KO powers of his DThrow, UThrow & especially BThrow, essentially giving him more potent KO Throws than normal (or Fox's for that matter), so it's possible that you might see Neutral 2 picked, not so much for the Blaster itself (which IS useful here, IMO), but for the extra KO Throw power.

Not sure which of his Side Specials he'd most want to bring to this MU. Side 2, Falco Phase, despite it having no hitbox whatsoever, starts up the fastest of the 3 Side Specials (Autosnaps to the ledge REALLY quickly & safely!), grants him invincibility during the actual forward dash (helps with getting in on you if he reads something like a Clay throw!), and it recovers faster when used in the air (Expect his 2 frame Jab to get mashed out at this point for self-protection). While he loses an off-stage spike option, this MIGHT actually be a pretty good move to use against us for mixing up his approaches & recovery.

Side 3 is my personal favorite, despite it having the shortest range & longest start-up of the 3, due to it having the greatest KO power of the 3 withOUT needing to be off-stage (If you're at 100+%, you're at the edges of the stage, and you do NOT DI, this WILL KO you!). Its KO powered range is a bit less than 1/4 of FD, so if it hits you beyond that range, you'll merely get shoved into the air. Its cooldown is significantly lower if used in the air than when used on the ground (moreso this move than Side 2, actually), so mashed Jabs can be a great option for him to use afterwards.


Our Loadout would likely be 3121 or 3122 or 1121 or 1122, with 3121 or 3122 being my preferred picks (3122 most of all, taking Void, Explosive Blaster, and Falco Phase into account). I personally would not advise 3123 if you see Falco rep Neutral 2 (it won't protect you against anything Falco will throw out).

Zigzag is great against fastfallers, as well as heavies, so if you can get this properly B-Mashed, that'll be a clean 20+%. His generally slow air horizontal speed will get sharked by this as well, provided it doesn't get Voided or Phased through.

Duck Jump Snag, as stated earlier, will be one of your most reliable attack answers to his 2 frame Jab. It'll also help make your recovery safer, which Falco would normally be capitalizing on with impunity (With Void, he STILL can bully this move, so DO look out for that. Not sure if his Side 1 can beat this....). Like with his Up 2, we too will want walls for this to maximize recovery range.

Quick Draw Aces will give you the best chance at getting any Gunman shot out there, given how much more capable Falco becomes at either getting around them (Side 2, Neutral 2, Up 2) or even KO-ing them (Void, Side 3, Neutral 3).


Ratios:
WithOUT Customs: 0 Even.

WITH Customs: -1 in favor of Falco.

Not since Bowser (who now has the King Kong / Koo Paa, which is UThrow --> Aerial (With UAir KO-ing at 90+%), making his payoffs for getting in even better now) have I really had to concede on this point. Reflector Void is such a dominating move against us as a whole, and he gets other options for swoocing into our space as well (Neutral 2, Side 2/3, Up 2). Sure, we get Zigzag, DJS, and even QDA, but a significant portion of Falco's problems with us gets solved when Customs are on.

I'd personally try another Custom Superstar like Charizard (1313 or 2313), Palutena (2322), or Doc (1212) if my Custom Hunt gets blown up. I'd sooner personally try 3313 or 3323 Custom Jr, what with him being my other main and all, despite only Short Hop Side 3 being a solid answer to Falco's Jab & Void. I'd say DTilt, but that's a 4 frame move... >_>

 

[WispBae]

Alright, CLOUD NEXT!!

Behold the true face of terror. The slayer of gods.

VS

Pros! (For Doggy!)

• Able to harass Cloud offstage with ease.
• Doesn't have to approach, even with Limit Break.

Cons! (For Doggy!)

• Lighter weight means he will get KO'd more easily.
• LB Blade Beam goes through some projectiles.
• Large disjoints. (Nair, Bair and Dair).

Still a largely unexplored MU for me, since I've been training mostly my Robin since cloud came out, but I was able to face a few fantastic Clouds locally, so I'll share a few of those thoughts.

The wall game works decently well against Cloud, as for most of the people in the cast, even with him threatening to LB. He'll have to hold shield a lot to just sit there and charge and eventually get shield poked and take percent, meaning he's going to have to approach, unless he wants to take free percentage. As for Cloud's offstage game, most any hit will gimp Cloud, similar to Little Mac. Although it's not as bad as Lil Mac's, since he can actually come back, and go pretty deep if he has his limit break ready. Otherwise, smartly put fairs and nairs are reccomended, and Trick Shot harassment is always a must.

Not being able to finish a stock will always be an issue for Doggy, and even more so with Cloud, since he hits very hard and has easy KO options available with LB. Not to mention super large disjoints that can beat Doggy's fair and a dair with a very long lingering hitbox.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

I'm going to try a different format for this post than what I've normally done before, namely the RP-ish style that I applied for the 1st part of my post above for the Falco MU, as an attempt to spice up what some folks out there might consider to be "dry reading material" (I myself don't consider this Thread to be that, obviously), so as to make the intel I'm wanting to share here both more memorable and more comprehensible (I've tried to link some of my previous posts in this Thread to a certain someone out there who was wanting to level up his game, and seeing that person's reaction of overwhelming bewilderment disheartened me). It'll also be an occasion for me to showcase my writing chops, so to speak. With that disclaimer out there, let us begin:


*Cue "The Ark" from the Final Fantasy XIII (13-3) Lightning Returns Original Soundtrack*

<Glimmer Ardor the Shell-Less Boomerang Bro that is cosplaying as Hope Estheim in his 13-1 outfit, complete with his hairstyle> "Hunt, Splooshi has found us some footage to review for the upcoming match-up. Watching these might be worth our while. Also, despite how similar my name may sound and look like a certain perpetual winner, it's merely a coincidence that it turned out that way, for Splooshi ran Hope's name through a thesaurus in hopes of forging a name that had similar meanings to his."

(How meta of you to call attention to that, GlimR.)

<RL Me> "I personally would like to think that I've admirably succeeded, since not only do I find that name to be cool and fun to say, but I MIGHT find an occasion for using GlimR at some point.... Whenever that will be. XD

(Anyways, some parts of these matches might show us important details, so let's take a look.)

Spoiler: Match Vid References

Stingers (Cloud) VS Dandy Penguin (DH, rank #3 in NC)
Winners Semis: http://www.twitch.tv/smash_it_again/v/30815446?t=96m53s

WNF S4E9 – ImHip (Duck Hunt) Vs. SCB | Markus (Cloud) Grand Finals - Smash Wii U: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXfi7r4JWNs

WNF S4E09 – ImHip (Duck Hunt) Vs. SCB | Markus (Cloud) Grand Finals Set 2 - Smash Wii U: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPzQClSWcWg

Phoenix Games Smashfest - 8BIT | misterQ (Cloud) vs. OS | CasualJ (Duck Hunt/Rosalina)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CspiKJ4UBJE
(Only Match #3 at the 07:30 - 09:00 mark doesn't feature DH)

Glitz Pit #1 - Yawn (DuckHunt/Luigi) Vs. Mr. Avenger (Cloud/Lucas) - Smash 4 Wii U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F53avcjHo0A
(1st Match Only)

SFC 26 | SNORLAXPIE500 (Cloud) vs. NECRO (Duck Hunt, R.O.B.) | W:R1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6Q8LEkUan8
(1st Match Only)

Sm4sh Singles #29 - Pools - Longur (Duck Hunt) vs Agias (Cloud): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-2LmRlD9c4

<RL Me> I also have the frame data for Cloud here: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Cloud


<Glimmer> "Only one of those matches featured your kind winning, Hunt. That doesn't bode well for the Defaults Only version of the match-up."

(Said match was ImHip's first set, and his victory happened within the first two weeks of Cloud's release. We're a whole month past that now, so the SOLDIERs have considerably improved since then.)

<Glimmer> "Thankfully, the Customs version of this match-up is as much in your kind's favor as it is against all the previously featured DLC Cast Members thus far."

(While that's great to hear for the Customs On Tournies in Tourney Mode, outside of that, unless EVO 2016 turns them back on by force, our kind's Custom Loadouts won't be allowed at seemingly every other actual tournament for as far as the eyes can see.)

<RL Me> "Despite that, I still plan on covering that version later. For now, let's start with the Defaults Only version."


*Cue "Lightning's Theme - A Distant Glimmer -" from the Final Fantasy XIII (13-3) Lightning Returns Original Soundtrack*

(Okay, within the first few seconds of the match, I COULD set up shop with my arsenal, since he's not AS fast as Falcon or Fox from the get-go, NOR is he as overtly capable of doing as much to my arsenal as the likes of Jr and Rosalina.)

<Glimmer> "While it IS true that you can make most other close-range fighters come to you by doing that, there's just one problem with that tactic this time, Hunt. Also Splooshi, did you REALLY have to pick that song for this moment? Is it just because my name's in it?"

<RL Me> "Of course I picked that song, it's the ONE time that I'm going to get to use it, so I mind as well do so. X) Plus, from the outset of the match, both Hunt and Cloud are distantly spaced away from each other, and it's quite likely that Cloud wants to keep it that way for the next 7 seconds or so, for a reason that is likely to be heavily debated amongst us fellow canines and SOLDIERs. Now then, let me set the mood for the rest of this post with this!"


*Cue "Limit Break!" by Mitsuto Suzuki from the Final Fantasy XIII-2 OST (Disc 3), featuring hype E-Sports friendly lyrics~* The above song in question with said lyrics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxRwGrfiAZs

<RL Me> He's got-- *Points to the NAME of the bumped-up song in question* THAT to manually charge up with Down B like a KOF '98 Extra Mode or a CVS2 S-Groove or a Full Moon Melty Blood character, IF you choose to lame him out. Consider him to be in the Synergist Paradigm Role while he's charging up that bar.

(Sounds like I should be going in, then, like what Splooshi once advised me to do against the Disjointed Prince of Juggles. Perhaps I could start off the match in the Saboteur Paradigm Role by bringing out my arsenal, since it steadies the Stagger meter more than Ravager's attacks do? I mean, as soon as I can confirm a block or even a hit off of any part of my arsenal, I can Paradigm Shift from Saboteur to Ravager for building damage safely.)

<Glimmer> YOU approaching HIM is what HE wants, Hunt. He can stop charging that bar & go into seemingly any other action at any time, so more often than not, he can set up traps of his own once you're over there.

<RL Me> "True, he can force approaches with LB charging... but is that enough for us to want to approach him early on? I suppose examining the methods of building that bar can help us determine whether or not he'll want to 'go in' on Hunt for doing that."

<Glimmer> "From the order of fastest to slowest methods of building bar, it's manually charging for about 7 seconds, then taking 100 percent worth of damage, and then dealing 250 percent worth of damage."

<RL Me> "Hisoutensoku & Melty Blood's leaning towards offensive rushdown for bar gains, excluding Melty Blood's Full Moon Style's manual charges, his meter building Focus here does NOT have."

(So he gets more meter from kicking back and taking hits than he does from rushing me down.... It's ironic that the Touhou fighting games and even my own Mugen appearance are more aggressive than what this match-up seems to be, so far.)

<RL Me> "Oh trust me, Hunt. If Cloud wants to come at you, he's got some good tools to do that with. His Buster Sword is as great of an arsenal cleaver as Roy's Sword of Seals is, and one of his best approaching attacks that wrecks havoc on my other mains, Bowser Jr and Ryu, is his DTilt, the Ehrgiez Slide, for it lowers his profile as well as your DTilt does. He's as capable of going under normal Hadoukens and ArcThunders with his DTilt as you are with yours. Its lingering attack & traveling range is about one fourth of FD and Omegas, since doing it twice in a row puts him in the middle of FD, making his more immediately noteworthy than yours. Also, if there's any moment in the match when you can expect him to actually come at you, it'll most likely be, one, when he's glowing blue, two, you hear the classic ding sound from FF7, and or three, you hear the surprisingly-cool-and-fun-to-quote-aloud phrase that I'm probably going to mangle right now, 'Genkai wo koeru!'"

*Gasps!* (You're making it sound as if his DTilt's better than mine! He doesn't get anything worthwhile after his DTilt like I do, right?)

<RL Me> *Takes a pained deep breath* "Wrong. At low percents, he gets to follow up his DTilt with NAirs, and at mid percents, the vicious eventual-KO juggler that is his UAir becomes usable. Speaking of UAir, he can approach you with that active, since it auto-cancels if it's short-hopped beforehand, allowing for follow-ups like his Jab to seamlessly come out upon landing. Oh, and to be frank, in terms of sheer utility, I believe his DTilt IS better than yours, also because his DTilt can plow through your entire arsenal: It breaks non-shot up Clays, pushes away Cans, One Hit KOs non-Mega Gunmen, AND advances him towards you. Expect him to try mashing Jab afterwards if you're close enough to him when his Slide is over."

(Quick Draw Aces can challenge that move better than any other part of my arsenal if Can or Clay aren't already out.)

<RL Me> "That's assuming you're willing to give up Mega Gunmen's anti-camping powers for that."

<Glimmer> "On that note, he Jabs as fast as Hunt does, which is four frames, though his horizontal range on that is greater than Hunt's, and he's capable of Option Selecting between that and a Smash Attack by holding down and then mashing while holding down in the event that Hunt clashes with his repeating Jab One. Upclose tussles on the ground aren't exactly what you want, Hunt, given the great disjointed range on his Buster Sword in comparison to what your duck companion can offer you on the ground, especially if he's Option Selecting with Down Smash in mind, its horizontal range being surprisingly far on its first hit."

(My Rapid Jab String KOs him sooner than his Jab String does, especially at low ceiling stages!)

<RL Me> "What's also notable about his DTilt is that it pops you up into the air, which you DO have a hard time handling, since an already grounded Can will most likely be your only projectile that can help you come down safely. You DO have fastfall NAir, but Cloud's aerials in general are going to disjointly stuff it, especially NAir & UAir, the latter being a genuine KO move. Speaking of KO moves, Cloud's DTilt EVENTUALLY becomes one at around the same time that your UThrow can KO him, which should be at around 200 plus percents, I believe. However, even he shouldn't be recklessly abusing that move, for you can Paradigm Shift into the Commando Role upon reading when that might be incoming for a solid punish, such as after blocking or jumping over or outspacing it."

(Speaking of the Commando Role, he's much better at KO-ing on-stage than I am, since he's got more options for scoring the KO at lower percents than I do. He's got reliable Smashes--)

<RL Me> "Except for Down Smash, since that apparently IS techable after the front hit, if that is what I've read in his Social Thread at some point. FSmash is his slowest and strongest Smash Attack, and USmash is probably his weakest one, though DSmash can compete with that title if his back's not facing the nearest Blast Zone."

(A-Anyways, disjointed aerials that all can KO sooner than mine, even his NAir, and Limit Broken Specials.)

<Glimmer> "Say, what exactly CAN he do with a full Limit Break bar that would actually help him out here? If we can weather through what a full bar can do for him, then maybe we won't have to approach him AS much, which is what Wispbae claims as a pro for you, Hunt."

<RL Me> "Merely having it full can increase his overall movement speed, from walking to running to horizontal air and fastfalling speeds. Said increases in speed can also help him survive being KO-ed from upward KO moves for longer than usual, though it DOES make him juggle food at lower percents as well, provided he isn't trying to mash out NAir at 5 frames, UAir at 7 frames, or the LB versions of either Climhazzard at 7 frames or Cross Slash at 6 frames."

(The only move he has during Limit Break that can actually reach me from afar is his Blade Beam, and even then, my whole arsenal will help protect me from it! My proof of that is here!) *Presents this: https://youtu.be/uKRuW0a7Zfw?t=12m28s

<RL Me> "It left out Gunmen, but I can definitely tell you that ANY version of Blade Beam, normal OR LB, will One Hit KO Default and Quick Draw Gunmen, but lose completely to Mega Gunmen. Dandy Penguin's match proves the Default Gunman's case. However, no matter what part of the arsenal that the LB version hits, all of its multi-hits will come out, and if you're close enough to those multi-hits, Hunt, you'll recieve full damage from it, including its KO power at 100+ Percents if close to the edges. Of your arsenal, the absolute safest option to use, if Customs are on, is Mega Gunmen, for it can tank multiple Blade Beams before going down, plus if the LB version hits, not only will it survive that, but its wider hurtbox makes standing close to it safer to do than it would be with the other Gunmen."

<Glimmer> "The video evidence that Hunt shared also contained this set of tidbits, though its numbers' meanings elude me."

Limit Break Blade Beam - Invincible: 10-17
Limit Break Cross Slash - Invincible: 6-11
Limit Break Climhazzard (Hit 1) - Invincible: 5-10
Limit Break Climhazzard (Hit 2) - Invincible: 10-12

<RL Me> "The numbers are which frames have the invincibility. For example, Climhazzard's first hit is invincible on frame 5, and it remains invincible until frame 10. Come to think of it, if he's looking to mash out an attack while his gauge is full, Climhazzard MIGHT be the move of choice if he's close enough to you, Hunt. He might also make use of those moves to swooce past your arsenal, most notably Cross Slash from farther away than the next move's sweetspot, Climhazzard while blocking, and Blade Beam if he finds an opening within your minefield."

<Glimmer> "There's one attack that's conspicuously absent from this list that I don't believe we've touched upon yet."

<RL Me> *Eyes widen upon hearing a certain word* "The Finishing Touch! Thanks for reminding me, GlimR. At 62 plus percent on most stages from the front, without any DI on Hunt's part or the following on Cloud's part--"

<Mondegreen'd "Limit Break!" Vocals at the 01:27 mark> "REDNESS CRUSHING, THROUGH MY VEINS!" 8O

<RL Me> *In the style of the above song* "That's what OWNS YOUUUUUU!~" >8O *Headbangs & hums along to the rest of the song for a bit*

(Sure, it's the most powerful KO move he's got, but it's also the third slowest one he has too, with FAir being the second slowest at 18 frames, and FSmash being thee slowest at 19 frames. All sorts of folks in FG Anywhere keep going for it without properly setting me up for it, so it becomes a way for me to bait the meter out of him, especially because it's blockable.)

<RL Me> "Just so we're aware, the only Special that DOES put him into the Helpless Freefall state is Climhazzard when only the first part comes out. Everything else is A-OK to use off-stage, something that I'm sure Zelda and DK wish was true for all their moves."

(So I should Paradigm Shift into the Sentinel Role by putting up my shield and keeping my distance with long-ranged attacks like my FAir and arsenal when his gauge is full? Sounds like a reasonable plan, since his payoffs from throws aren't exactly any better than mine.)

<RL Me> "Like with Ryu's True Shoryuken, he can and will try to rip through your attacks with those if he suspects a certain one will come out at a certain time. So yes, DO keep your distance and put up your shield, though DO keep in mind his increased mobility. However, I DO want to point out that his LB gauge functions like the Hero meter in World Heroes Perfect for the Neo Geo, where a very specific special move (character-specific) would automatically be souped up upon doing the motion for that move and then using any punch or kick button at all, with the price being the entire Hero meter. In Cloud's case, that trait applies to ALL of his Specials, including Down B for the Finishing Touch, so if you can knock him off-stage far enough, you can make him burn his meter on his recovery. Sadly, unlike Lil' Mac, you can't simply launch the KO Punch out of him."

<Glimmer> "About that second to last point, it's often been said by many that his recovery is as subpar as Little Mac's and Doctor Mario's, despite Cloud having a wall-jump like you do, Hunt, so it should stand to reason that once you have him off-stage, it should generally be easy pickings for you, since your Can gets to join you for the edgeguard, your brand of which can go deeper than his, especially if you have a wall behind you."

(I can disrespect even his Climhazzard with my NAir quite well, if I say so myself. Especially if my Can's out there while I'm in the middle of my NAir for the second angle coverage.)

<RL Me> "I wouldn't get TOO careless around his Climhazzard off-stage if I were you, because if he catches you with the 2nd hit while there's no floor below you at a high enough percent...." *Pauses "Limit Break!" and skips to the 01:19 mark, and then presses play there for a very specific line...*

<Mondegreen'd "Limit Break!" Vocals> "FALL UNTIL WE DIIIIIIIIIE~!" >8O

<RL Me> *Pauses the song again after that line* "Would Cloud deliberately go for that? If he's ahead in stocks, he catches you stuck in the middle of your Up Special, and he's gutsy enough, he very well might just--" *Presses play again for this part:*

<"Limit Break!" Vocals> "DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!" >8O

<RL Me> *Lets the song keep going* "It's probably going to be the ONE time where I'll get to use this song, so I mind as well get my mileage out of it while I can." XD

<Glimmer> "Anyways, while we're on the subject of edgeguards, let's turn the chessboard around and cover how Hunt is supposed to return to the stage against Cloud's brand of edgeguarding. His subpar recovery range hinders the depths he can go against you if he wants to save his meter, but unless you're running Up 2 or 3, and or your Can or Gunman aren't out to protect you while you're in the middle of Up 1, he can do as he pleases against you."

(FAiring or UAiring immediately after my 2nd jump should serve me as well if the Can's stuck on-stage.)

<RL Me> "That's assuming that his bar is already full when you're recovering. Quite often, he may simply charge his meter, letting you freely grab the ledge without any hassles. 'Course, he'll likely be employing his many mix-up options once you're on the ledge, since as stated earlier, he can do whatever he wants once he stops charging."

<Glimmer> "There is still one Special we've yet to cover; What of normal Cross Slash? Would that not be a fantastic damage building move at low percents, akin to Roythcina's Dancing Blade series of the Down B variety?"

<RL Me> "It deals nineteen to twenty-ish percent if the whole attack lands, yet it lacks KO power, making it great for damage building, though DI-ing away while it's going to reduce its damage SOUNDS like it could be possible, but I've not yet fully tested this, since I'm currently limited to my 3DS copy for now. It can make mincemeat out of Mega Gunmen, though I doubt he'd go do that unless you're right where Mega is."

(He CAN use that off-stage to SLIGHTLY delay his fall while poking at me. Keyword, slightly. If he DOES land the whole Rekka string off-stage against my recovery, I MIGHT lose my stock for it at high enough percents.)

<RL Me> "Is that everything notable about the Default Side of this MU? I'm getting this nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something...."

<Glimmer> *Sighs as he narrows his eyes at Splooshi* "The three Aerials that aren't NAir and UAir that Wispbae mentioned two of as a Con against Hunt." >:I

<Rl Me> "Oh yeaaah, thanks for reminding me. Okay, FAir is Cloud's slowest aerial at 18 frames of startup, but it can spike you if he sweetspots it at a forty-five degree angle with you diagonally in front of and below him. Even if it doesn't spike, its damage output is wonderful, as is its KO power. BAir, especially when RAR-ed, is excellent for footsies, edgeguards and KOs, due to its short-hop-auto-cancellability, the equality in startup with the next move, and its great disjointed range. DAir not only has one of the longest lasting active frames out of everyone's DAirs, but it's also incredibly disjointed to the point where like against Jr, Hunt's UAir will lose to it. FAir and DAir can only auto-cancel when full-hopped, so if you see them short-hopped and either he whiffs them or you block them, that might be a good time for a punish."


*Cue "Equilibrium" (Or Ambivalence) from the Final Fantasy XIII (13-3) Lightning Returns Original Soundtrack*

(Anything else before Splooshi talks about his most favorite part of any MU that seemingly the entire competitive landscape has practically abandoned at this point?)

<Glimmer> "Yes: Dash Attack."

<RL Me> "I was just about to submit this post. X) Thanks again, GlimR. That 9 frame disjointed move has good vertical and even horizontal range if timed well, does great damage at eleven-ish percent a pop, can OTG if you don't tech the floor, and yet it lacks Link's KO power until you're at around one hundred and fifty plus percent. It disrespects your entire arsenal as well, capable of sending Trick Shot Cans flying off the stage, so respect it with your shield or dodges when you see it coming."

<Glimmer> "Now I don't believe so, as far as he's aware, so go on ahead, my good sir. May EVO 2016 have the power to bring the next section back, even if for just one summer weekend in July."

<RL Me> "On it~ It'd be nice if the upcoming BayoCorrin patch did SOMETHING about the OTHER Custom Superstars that folks do NOT find hype, like DK, Rosalina, and even Fox, ZSS, and Sheik.... Maybe folks would warm up to the next section if that happened?"


*Cue "Unseen Invaders - Aggressive Mix -" by Aimee Blackschleger from the Final Fantasy XIII-2 OST (Disc 2)*

Custom Loadouts:

*Presses and selects Retry, then selects Yes when given the "Are you sure you want to Retry?" question*

*After waiting through a short kaleidoscoping loading screen, reaches a FF13-3 styled menu with said game's sound effects featuring a 3D DHD front & center that can be spun around with the C-Stick in all 360 degrees and have seemingly countless parts of the duo recolored as however one desires (In my case, it'd essentially be thee Heartless Hunt featured in this post thus far, coupled with the duck from the Dalmation outfit from Sm4sh).*

*At a really high speed that a GDQ speedrunner would regularly handle, scrolls downwards over to "Equip", presses , and enters a menu filled with various pieces of Custom Equipment, which are blurred out due to irrelevance & NOT being equipped on Heartless Hunt at all, and all the Custom Specials that both DH and Cloud have. Current deck is 1111 for both DH and Cloud.*

*COMPLETELY ignores Cloud, who is stuck with 1111 until further notice.*

*Instantly switches DH's Neutral 1, Trick Shot, to Neutral 3, Zigzag Shot, by simply pressing once while the cursor is highlighted on Neutral 1, and again when Neutral 3 is highlighted*

<RL Me> "Plugging in this staple of our Loadouts once more for the usual reasons I've stated throughout the months, though it DOES connect easier when his LB bar's full. Its traveling arc can potentially sail right over both Blade Beams if timed properly, and if it collides with said Beams, it generally won't blow up in your face, and instead either be sent flying the other way, or hardly anywhere at all. Either way, though, B-Pressing the Can won't be happening for a second after the hit. It is very much possible to gimp Cloud's recovery with this, provided that, for once, you lay off on the mashing at just the right time to make sure that he's pushed away from the stage. Try this against other folks with poor recovery distances, like FE Roy and Ganondorf."

*Instantly SKIPS Side 1, Clay Shooting, not even bothering to enter that part of the menu at all*

<RL Me> "Rising Clay gets cleanly destroyed by his DTilt, and Clay Break is as inconsistent as ever, especially against his DTilt. Both of them also trade with both Blade Beams, though Rising Clay loses the trade harder than Clay Break does, due to its longer start-up time than all the other Clays, with Break having the shortest start-up of the 3, as surprising as that sounds. ;O Simply put, if Cloud catches any Clay with his DTilt, and he's close enough to actually hit you with the Ehrgiez Slide, you're probably gonna have a bad time."

*Goes into the Up Special menu, and keeps highlighting Up 2, Duck Jump Snag, and Up 3, Super Duck Jump, due to a wavering of convictions*

*Currently highlights Up 3*

<RL Me> "While it IS nice to have a windbox against his recovery...."

*Ultimately picks Up 2, Duck Jump Snag*

<RL Me> "I've gotta go with the Wakeup DP, for not only is it one of Hunt's fastest options upclose, but it can also serve the same purpose that I'd use Up 3 for, mainly gimping him off-stage, since it can serve as a faster 'last stand' of sorts before having to come back to the stage, provided that you're facing away from the stage when the launching hitbox arrives, or he falls out of Snag early on enough to catch the opponent off-guard."

*Goes into the Down Special menu, and switches between all 3 Down B variants, though Down 3 is settled on sooner than the Up Special was*

<"Unseen Invaders" Lyrics at the 02:07 Mark> "The enemy's always there, let 'em come, let 'em come~"

<RL Me> "While I AM tempted to rep Down 2 for challenging Cloud's DTilt, as I've mentioned earlier, Mega Gunmen solidly shuts down both Blade Beams, truly supporting Wispbae's claim that Cloud is more pressured to approach than Hunt is. It'll also take a while for Cloud to KO one upclose, though if he completes 2 whole Cross Slashes, that will usually be enough to KO one. When in doubt, keep one out and retreat behind it."


*Cue "BOSSBATTLE_v2-09_31aug11" by Mitsuto Suzuki from the FINAL FANTASY XIII-2 Original Soundtrack Plus (aka the prototype version of "Limit Break!")*

Stage Picks:

<RL Me> "Cloud wants Walled stages more than Hunt does, due to his short & linear recovery range. If Cloud can hold out until he reaches the wall for the wall-jump, then his ability to actually get back to the stage increases significantly, provided that he doesn't get intercepted by us after spending his wall-jump, especially if he still has his second jump. We should do all that we can to deny him Walled stages, such as certain Omegas, thee Duck Hunt stage, and very specific parts of Delfino & Skyloft."

(Is it really worth not allowing ME to wall-jump, Splooshi?)

<RL Me> "Yes, because Cloud needs those walls more than you do, even when you're running Up 2. Anything to make his recovery harder is worth worsening your own recovery."

<Glimmer> "Considering how mighty his aerial range is, as well as how wonderful he is at bulldozing past your arsenal, Hunt, avoiding Battlefield and Dream Land 64 would be good ideas, due to his uncanny ability to shark the platforms there, which can help him traverse through your minefield even better than at FD."

(I WISH I could take Zigzag Shot with me to DL64, Town & City, Halberd, and Delfino more often, since their low ceilings can help me and Zigzag compete with Cloud's monstrous KO power. Alas, without that, I'm not as eager to go to those places against him.)

<RL Me> "What about Lylat Cruise? Sure, the platforms there boost Cloud's NAir and UAir sharking, but recovering there is a pain for him, and Hunt's arsenal synergizes with the layout there wonderfully."

(We could always go to Startersville~ Other than the one floating platform, there's nothing to help him come back~)


*Cue "Glory's Fanfare" by Mitsuto Suzuki from the Final Fantasy XIII-2 OST (Disc 1)*

Ratios:

WithOUT Customs: -1 minimum in favor of Cloud.

<RL Me> "Cloud's DTilt is a button that will cause serious problems for Hunt-- *Aside Glance~* And Jr and Ryu for that matter-- *End Aside Glance~* As well as his Buster Sword cleaving through his arsenal ala FE Roy's Sword of Seals, with OR withOUT Customs. It's rather unfortunate that THEE Limit Break fight song isn't in Sm4sh, because it's very fitting for how capable his Limit Break gauge is at dictating the pace of the battle, much like how Chun-Li in Super Turbo and 3rd Strike can do so with her Super Meter. At least getting him off-stage, holding your ground with your shield and arsenal when he goes for certain laggy attacks, and then making him waste his meter, are how you can Stagger him." :D

*Cue "Blessed Fanfare" by Mitsuto Suzuki from the Final Fantasy XIII-2 OST (Disc 2)*

WITH Customs: 0 even.

<RL Me> "It's the nature of any DLC Cast Member: They lose a point when Customs are on, since they themselves don't have any to put on. Mega Gunmen are giant stop signs against both Blade Beams, Duck Jump Snag improves our close quarters combat abilities and makes our recovery safer while making his edgeguarding attempts riskier, and Zigzag can soar over both Blade Beams for either strong pressure or even big punishes, especially when Mega's out there to protect you."

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

(Saaaay, this Farfetch'd almost looks like Cloud)

...

Zzzhuh? Oh right, I'm back!


Pro's for Dawg:

• Dog can cut off Cloud recovering fairly easily (Then again I guess a lot of characters can, but hey! Roll with me on this...)
• Dog can stay in shield a little longer due to Clouds terrible throws.
• Dog projectiles protect him from Blade Beam (except for Limit Blade Beam)

Con's for Dawg:

• Cloud will not let Dog land safely ever.
• Blade Beam does shut down a lot of Duck Hunt's set ups.
• Neutral Air cuts through can like butter.

Errfff... Duck Hunt vs. Cloud. This is definitely the match-up I can't figure my way around at the moment. Cloud is similar to Shulk in that both have a wicked big nair that repels can. Blade Beam also repeals can and everything else. It seems harder to sit and camp out against Cloud, seeing as he's perfectly willing to sit and camp out, too. Getting knocked into the air against Cloud is currently my least favorite thing in the game. Landing is pretty difficult against a majority of the cast anyway, but then Cloud has his fantastic aerials to keep juggling you up. Landing seems pretty darn impossible against Cloud at the moment.

On the plus side, Duck Hunt can cut off Clouds recovery pretty easily, shielding with can is a more appealing option due to Clouds bad throw follow ups and it's not very likely that Cloud will follow you off stage most of the time...

Soooo... there's that, right? Right?

-sobs-

-1 to Duck Hunt.

Edit: Surely this is one of the worst MU's in the game for Duck Hunt right? I'm gonna take a quote from one of the comments on ImHips vid against Markus's Cloud that SplooshiSplashy linked:

JoshSaysStuff - "In his defense, Cloud is an awful MU for Duck Hunt. In fact, I'm tempted to say it's the worst in the game going by experience. I'm a DHD main, and Cloud's ability to trump all his projectiles on the ground forces him to fight in a really non-intuitive manner. It's honestly super imbalanced, and I hope it gets fixed in a patch. A dash attack from Cloud--or any attack, for that matter--completely nullifies any attempt at a combo starter or a trap from DHD. I'm really hoping for a somewhat heavy nerf to Cloud in a later patch. His mobility and speed make no sense given his power, and he has some good combo potential, meaning they would need to do to him what they did to Sheik or Greninja to make it balanced. I also think they should make it take longer to get Limit Breaker because it's an unnecessary boon to his power."

 

[chaos11011]

Could we add links to the OP that brings us to the page number of a character we want to read up on? That way, it's easier to access match up info.

 

[WispBae]

I'll get around to updating the OP when I can, it's a ton of pages to go through @~@

 

[chaos11011]

Take your time! It's totally okay!

I'm currently making a match up journal irl and I'm covering specific intricacies of certain match ups, but they're not necessarily from this week's discussion. Can I still say what little details I have in mind? So far, I only really covered Rosa in depth bc I only started today, but there's tiny little specific interactions from a few characters that might be nice to share!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Duck Hunt again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/408234/

 

[Ridel]

"In his defense, Cloud is an awful MU for Duck Hunt. In fact, I'm tempted to say it's the worst in the game going by experience. I'm a DHD main, and Cloud's ability to trump all his projectiles on the ground forces him to fight in a really non-intuitive manner. It's honestly super imbalanced, and I hope it gets fixed in a patch. A dash attack from Cloud--or any attack, for that matter--completely nullifies any attempt at a combo starter or a trap from DHD. I'm really hoping for a somewhat heavy nerf to Cloud in a later patch. His mobility and speed make no sense given his power, and he has some good combo potential, meaning they would need to do to him what they did to Sheik or Greninja to make it balanced. I also think they should make it take longer to get Limit Breaker because it's an unnecessary boon to his power."

Not sure how I feel nerfing one character over one very specific MU, may feel like a bit too much imo.