Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion

TheWorstMuppet

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Not sure how I feel nerfing one character over one very specific MU, may feel like a bit too much imo.
Oh yeah, I don't agree with nerfing Cloud. I only brought that comment to light because I too feel rather helpless in the MU. This can only get better with time and practice. We'll see how we do against him in a couple months.
 
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WispBae

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The OP (or third post I guess) has been updated, as suggested by chaos11011 chaos11011 , here's the new table of contents.

Those visual bookmarks are a lifesaver, lets you easily scan until you see who you wanna talk about.

Anyways, shall we move onto week 18? Here's who's left:
:4charizard::4marth::4wiifit::4zelda::4palutena::4lucina::4shulk::4duckhunt::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4mewtwo:

I'll vote for Wii Fit after seeing this silly *** game from Genesis 3 and MarthCina as usual. Whatchu guys think?
 
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I'll have to agree on Marcina and WFT as well, as for some late input on the Cloud matchup, I feel like this might just be one of the worst MU's for Duck Hunt so far. I feel Cloud simply negates almost all of our options with his overwhelming aerials and his rather fast mobility. His Nair for example just slices through almost everything we can throw out at him and just negates any sort of projectile setup. His neutral b can also mess with our setups, but it does still allow our gunmen shot to go through it. What makes this MU even more tough is the fact that cloud is just so mobile through both the air and the ground and can overwhelm us with very strong aerials and great punish game, one misplaced move can lead to your death at very early percents. However, the positive side for us in this MU is the fact that cloud is very exploitable offstage which could lead to us taking an early stock or wrapping up games. Can is probably the best option for messing with cloud offstage, gunman could be dropped down at the ledge to cover his option of recovering low, however, I wouldn't suggest trying to gimp a cloud offstage with an aerial unless you're a stock ahead as his up-b is very unforgiving he won't be afraid to take you down with it. All in all, I feel as if this MU is still very tough and I would rate it as a -2, if you're lucky enough to consistently exploit Cloud's recovery I could see it as being potentially better but that could depend on the Cloud player and how he chooses to deal with you.
 

TheWorstMuppet

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I'm down with WFT (my flatmate picked 'er up not too long ago) so I've had sometime to play the MU, I'd also like to nominate Shulk, seeing as a boy from Newcastle upon Tyme absolutely shreked me at a tournament last month. Shulks nair stops everything.
 
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There's a really good WFT at my weeklies. I can ask him to do friendlies next week and get some info on that.
 

WispBae

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Alright, "Week" 18 (I should probably just call these rounds or sessions, they NEVER resemble a week. EVER.)

We'll be working up a sweat with Wii Fit Trainer and steeling our ducks for Marth & Lucina. Treating Marth and Lucina the same for MU's as they are exactly the same, save for the tippers and slight percentage variances.

Speaking of our two Lords, we'll be opening up discussion for them now!

"Did you just call me low-tier?!"

I'll type up my two cents a bit later.
 
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WispBae

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:4duckhunt:VS:4marth:/:4lucina:

Pros! (For Doggy!)
  • Projectiles do a good job of keeping them away.
  • Fair outranges MarthCina's Fair, great in the neutral and for poking.
Cons! (For Doggy!)
  • Shieldbreaker forces Doggy to shield less.
  • Tipper/ Lucina's Smashes KO doggy very easily.
  • Easy edgeguards for Marth/Cina.
People love to sleep on MarthCina, which usually tends to be their downfall, since they're not as helpless as they look (especially when them getting buffs every 7 seconds). Otherwise, I think this is a good MU for Doggy, due to how hard approaching is for them.

Trick Shot harassment is still great as usual, but a bit safer for sword characters to fight against, as they can use the disjointed hitboxes to safely swat away the can and not expose themselves to danger. Against a character with no projectile and being forced to approach, Gunmen also make a fantastic tool in the neutral here, since dealing with them up close is risky, and staying away from them is playing Doggy's game. Fair outranging the two sword fighters wraps up our neat lil spacing game against them, since it makes approaches that much harder. Due to their quick dash and low profile when dashing, I would avoid going for up close Clay Pigeon mix-ups, especially against a character(s) who only need one good F-Smash to finish a stock.

As mentioned, Doggy isn't too heavy, and Tipper F-Smashes as well as Standard F-Smashes from Lucina both have pretty high knockback, just add around 20% of leeway when dealing with Marth. As with characters who have command grabs, not mixing up your defensive maneuvers will get you KO'd, as shieldbreaker... break shields...

...ahem...

The fact that it is one of the most reliable shield breakers in the game, reaches quite far and can be reversed makes it tricky to mess with. A doggy who loves his shield won't last long here. Plus, when Doggy has to recover (like with most characters), it means easy edgeguards on him, especially with MarthCina. They cover space decently well with their aerials, can snap to ledge and stage spike very fast with their Up-B (the name of the moves escapes me...), and ledge trumps can lead to bairs and even F-Smash punishes.

Overall, I think this MU is +2 for Doggy. You have to keep in mind your defensive habits when dealing with shield breaker, but for the most part, Doggy shouldn't have too much trouble keeping the two of them away. I'd recommend larger stages for this MU, as my only real concern would be their great dash speed.
 

ぱみゅ

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+2 might be a bit too optimist for the Dog. The swordies have no problem dealing with any of the Dog's zoning tools, and they have above-average mobility to choose when to go in or not, specially of they get platforms. Yes, Fair outranges them on the air, but they have more than one spacing tool. Ftilt, Nair, even Shield Breaker if you make your Fair a bit too obvious; they simply have tons of tools.

Now, another thing the Dog has for him is juggling. The Hero King ans his grand~daughter have trouble scaping pressure when it comes from below them, and DH has a powerful move in his Uair and Nair not being bad either, and that's something to use for your advantage, but again, not being too predictable.

Now, due to the incredibly dynamic nature of this one matchup, and the scarce and potentially awkward opportunities they have to connect their attacks, I think this is one of those matchups where Lucina might have the upper hand. DuckHunt won't really let them approach, and I think consistently landing tippers might be a bit too difficult, and that becomes particularly more important at the moment to get the kill. Lucina's Fsmash is far more reliable than any of Marth's kill moves, however powerful.
(A lot of people seem to disagree with this one statement tho, don't quote me on that).

Also, exploiting the Dog's recovery is not only a downside, but something these two will be looking forward to abuse, expect them to jump off the stage and strike you everytime. Even if they don't kill you or go for spikes, they might just want to pin down as much damage as possible. The can is mildly helpful, since their disjoint might just make it worse for a recovering Dog.

I see this matchup very even, possibly slightly advantaged for the Dog if he's very campy and hides behind his projectiles just to keep the opponent out, but then again, if the Swordie is smart with their approaches they won't be as much effective.

My opinion anyway.
:196:
 

WispBae

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Alright, let's open up discussion on WFT now! Marth/Lucina is still up for discussion by the way, I'd be curious to see what Splooshi Splashy Splooshi Splashy has to say on it considering many people consider Custom MarthCina to be wayyy better.


The Trainer's dirty little secret: junk food and diet soda addict!!!

:4duckhunt:VS:4wiifit:
Pros! (For Doggy)

  • Almost every move outranges WFT's.
  • Trick Shot and Gunmen both reliably stop Sun Salutations and Header Footballs.
  • Getting in close can be problematic for WFT, which is great for Duck Hunt.
Cons! (For Doggy)
  • WFT's fantastic offstage game destory's Doggy.
  • WFT has some of the strongest smashes in the game (F-Smash & U-Smash w/ Deep Breathing).
  • The ability to self-heal along with projectile pressure and Doggy' lacking KO power gets very annoying.
This is a hard MU to talk about in personal experience, because we only have ONE dedicated Wii Fit Trainer main in our area, and we've never met in bracket, so most of my experience comes from Anther's Ladder Wii Fit players (which, even then, is still rare). So I'm afraid I can't go into too much depth about how the MU works. I can share the notes I do have though.

Almost every move in Doggy's arsenal outranges WFT's moveset, since her reach isn't too far, instead trading them out for either very strong hits or double-sided hitboxes, making her neutral game much more patient then others as she waits for a moment to get in. A lot of this game we know as using Sun Salutation and Headers to bait the opponent into doing moves and punishing, but Duck Hunt is able to consolidate those moves by keeping a can out on the field or using gunmen as a shield, since neither of the projectiles are piercing. As such, when Doggy is ahead and can play more patiently, it becomes much harder to deal with camping, as Wii Fit really has to look for opening and go in.

On the other side, WFT has a very good offstage game, as Header spikes at the beginning, she has a good recovery, and can stall on the ledge with Sun Salutation and Headers. So you better learn how to tech against Wii Fit and cover your recovery with Trick Shot. Another important note is her Smashes, which kill reliably and pretty early with a good read. F-Smash can cover roll options, and Up-Smash has either armor or invincibility frames on it, making it for challenging opponents landing. While Duck Hunt can definitely out camp WFT, if she gets the lead, things get tricky as her stalling game is pretty good, being able to heal, camp the ledge and run away. Impatient players will get reckless and that's when Wii Fit does the best: when people are approaching her.

I won't give a score on this MU, but I think Wii Fit has the advantage with the sheer fact of strong moves, stalling and being able to heal, where Duck Hunt has the advantage of outspacing her and being able to camp pretty safely against her. I'd love to hear from Doggies who know this MU better than myself, or from WFT's in general. She's a pretty tricky character, so any info would be helpful.
 

BoxedOccaBerrys

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I find this matchup to be 60:40 in :4wiifit:'s favor, namely due to a lot of the things you mentioned, the strong smash attacks, the ability to heal 2% every fully charged sun salutation, plus Deep Breathing's knockback increase helps a lot... But :4duckhunt: has a few good things about him in this matchup too, a lot of Wii Fit's combos come from her Neutral Air. Duck Hunt has a smaller hurtbox, like :4pikachu: and :4kirby:, so he can be hard to hit with it. I've gotten into Anther's Ladder, and the Duck Hunts I've found /played struggle with her Header Ball and Sun Salutation.

Because someone said me saying I'm stupid is my catchphrase. It's now my catchphrase.

Take what I just said lightly I'm stupid.

(Hello from the Wii Fit boards!)
 

Splooshi Splashy

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eWyCJ7VV04
ORLX - AxG | Murphy (Marth, Sheik) vs. Liv2dy (Duck Hunt) - Smash 4 - Wii U

https://youtu.be/iXCyxYICPPc?t=3m31s
CasualJ (Duck Hunt) Vs. Ben (Kirby , Marth) Smash 4 life Tournament 9/19


https://youtu.be/syTycGK5ybA?t=1m29s
Smash 4 Weekly #10 Losers Round 2 SA Cruzin (Duck Hunt) Vs KetchupMan7 (Lucina/Falco)
Sure I linked to this one before, but this time, the focus here is on the 1st match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5vFjSUKxTc
SW 37 Wii U - P2P with Gibus (Duck Hunt, MK) vs Goshi (Lucina, Pit) - Winners Bracket


*Cue "Silent Moonlight (Prologue 2)" by Raito from the UNDER NIGHT IN-BIRTH ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK SIDE-ABYSS*

When it comes to swordies, Marth & Lucina are among the classiest, and most elegant & graceful around here. I'd describe Roy with those terms, were it not for his valiantly hot-blooded tone that he composes himself on the battlefield with, as well as his more aggressive endgoal of-- <English Dub!Carl Clover during QCF+P??> "Going in strong!" ... For the center sweetspot. Marth was also the one swordie that was closest to being like Roy in Brawl, so he was my go-to guy there. Really though, the trio were among the first mains I ever had in the Smash series, due to how cool I found their distinctly formal Japanese appearances that sharply stood out to everyone else back in Melee and even Brawl, as well as the sheer range of their blades that were supported with sheer mobility and even attack speed that both Links couldn't offer me. Thus, it is only fitting that I'd show up here for this MU, to finish the other side that my Roy post started months ago, which carries a chuck of what I would mention now, had I not said them back then (Read: A shorter post than usual is in-bound. For more details, go to my FE Roy MU post, since a significant amount of what I said for him can apply to these two). Now then, let us come to arms:

*Cue "Purity & Strictly (Orie)" by Raito from the UNDER NIGHT IN-BIRTH ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK SIDE-ABYSS*

One of the key differences in fighting Marthcina in comparison to Roy are the ideal ranges you want to stay at. Ideally by default, that range would be as far away as possible. However, given their overall movement speed (especially Roy's), as well as how capable they are at cleaving through our arsenal with their blades, expecting to be there all the time is not feasible. Thus, it's important to note where Roythcina's ideal melee ranges are, for proper spacing is of the utmost importance here if you're looking to take the fight to them upclose.

As stated earlier, Roy wants IN-CLOSE for the center sweetspots, so keeping him at the tip of his blade | your duck or farther is desirable.

Marth, however, wants to be at just the right range for himself to land the tip of his blade, which is definitely farther away than where both Roy and even Lucina want to be, so if you're wanting to fight him upclose like I personally would, fight AROUND his tipper, NOT AT his tipper. Sure, we may have the tip of our duck's beak during our FAir (outranges Marth's aerials except Neutral 1/2/3) and BAir to help us imitate him, but not only does Marth have WAY more moves that are boosted by his tip, but the payoffs from them exceed our own FAir and even BAir, especially FSmash and the 4th Forward B Finisher of Heavy Blade (Side 3, which KOs EVEN SOONER than his FSmash!!). Thankfully, if he can't line himself up to tip his Falchion, he's either dealing less damage & knockback at the center (worse than even Lucina, AND it's thee range where we can match his DPS, blow by blow), or worse for him | better for us, whiffing completely.

Lucina generally doesn't care WHERE her blade hits, since there's no sweetspots anywhere on it. Center, tipper, in-between, it's all the same to her (except for her DAir and DSmash, both of which she'll want to tipper for maximum damage & effect). Unlike either Marth OR Roy, keeping her away from you is probably the most optimal melee range to be against her as often as possible, since she doesn't share Roy's weak tips OR Marth's weak center. This also means that run-Up Smash is a more viable option for her than it is for Marth, IF you're on the ground when she goes for it.

Another significant difference is that unlike Roy, Marthcina's recovery ranges are significantly farther than his, so neither a lingering NAir nor a sourspot FAir/BAir nor an Up 3 blowback against their Counters will strongly push them back enough to seal the stock THAT easily.

Lucina can Jab 1 --> FSmash us reliably, according to what I heard from AceStarThe3rd during one of his Undefeatable eps on them (forgot which one...), so when you're at 80+%, keep an eye out for her Jab 1.

Marthcina's Up Throw reliably KOs us at 183+% with max rage & no DI, which is definitely sooner than our UThrow, that's for sure, especially at low ceiling stages.

Marthcina also have a genuine Wakeup DP in the form of Up 1, Dolphin Slash, which hits as soon as Frame 5. WithOUT Customs, we'll have to respect it more than I'd want to if our arsenal isn't out there, since it eventually DOES KO at 120+% near the edges. WITH Customs, we get Up 2, Duck Jump Snag, to compete with that.

Marthcina generally don't move AS fast as FE Roy... except in one vital way: Walking.
"You mean like me, one of THEE fastest walkers amongst ALL the Yoshies in Mugen? I could probably outwalk ALL the versions of Yoshi throughout the Smash series as well."

Yes, and you very well could outwalk them too, MegaOrangeYoshi. ;) *Tries to sneak a peek at his tail--*

"EYES UP HERE, SPLOOSHI! KEEP IT E-SPORTS! Miss Bayonetta may be arriving tomorrow, but that's NO excuse to look at me that way like how the camera angles in HER series sometimes zoom in on THAT region!"

*Blushes bright red while abruptly looking away!* ANYWAYS! Speaking of-- E-SPORTS-- er, outwalking, that's what Marthcina can do to us canines, since they are the absolute fastest walkers out of everyone when you exclude Speed!Shulk, Speed!Kirby and Lightweight!Customtena (and possibly either Corrin or Bayonetta, once they're out. *Has yet to see either one in action beyond their world premiere trailers*). Marth especially benefits from this for the following reasons:

1. Maximizing the amount of walk-up options available,
2. Keeping close to DH and/or getting away from certain attacks,
3. (Marth only) Getting into key positions for lining up Tippers (especially FSmash, which can KO REALLY early (50+%), especially at the edges. If Side 3, Heavy Blade, is equipped, that too can KO ridiculously early if the 4th Forward Slash connects (45+% normally, 37+% tippered!), especially at the edges). These percents are assuming Top Freshness & NO DI, btw.


Before I continue onto my most favorite section of these posts, a word of acknowledgement and announcement...

*Cue "Intermission (The True Arena)" from the Kirby Triple Deluxe OST*
<Kehtas the male orange :4kirby: with blue suede shoes> *Has tears welling up in his eyes* "Splooshi, am I reading this correctly? Did somebody really just desire to see the next segment that which you've heard very little feedback from, the most recent being from Raziek during the week of the Robin MU, which you Liked at first sight of agree-ance?"

<RL Me> "Yes, you ARE indeed reading that right, Kehtas, and that segment IS INDEED coming up next, much to my excitement, since Custom Marthcina is most certainly among those that become supercharged by their Loadouts, much like Bowser & Falco. Come to think of it, other than Mewtwo, BaeYOnetta, Corriin-schta ((Takano Miyo, I SWEAR that you're speaking of that name in your Character Song, "Bon -karma-", at the 02:03 mark! >8D)), Zelda, and Jigglypuff--"

<Kehtas> *Actually starts shedding tears while appearing utterly LIVID with bright red blushes!* "WHAT!? PUFF'S MY BAE!! Her Custom Loadouts are NOT as garbage as what folks also claim about MY HERO'S FRENEMY META KNIGHT!!"

<RL Me> *Giggles like DH himself* "I myself run either 2x21 or 2x22 as Miss Puff, which aren't THAT bad, so peace, little Batamon~ I only claimed that she's not, because the majority thinks that she's not."

<Kehtas> *Punches the air in front of himself* "I'm not THAT little, Splooshi, I'm mentally 12 years old!"

<RL Me> "And yet you're one of the most vocal members of the Social Liquid Coalition in the ambitiously-in-perpetual-development fic series, Shimmering Eyes, which you WERE brandishing earlier at the start of this song, by the way~ :p I'm surprised that someone your age would fight for the privilege of publicly displaying a certain emotion that has historically been disdained in confusion by society at large, even by ladies who once were encouraged to openly express it, who you most certainly would defend with every fiber of your being."

<RL Me> *Recalls seeing a certain gif of Lucina during what he suspects to have been a VERY big scene at a certain point in FE:A that might've been a Wham Moment in which, in the words of his various fancharacters he's planned on using for his fic series, depicts her Shimmering Eyes transitioning into Raining Eyes....* "Mo~e!" ¦D

<Kehtas> *Slowly breathes heavily while now starting to shed less tears now* "Splooshi, I'm glad that you alluded to me being one of the most mo~e folks in all of Shimmering Eyes, as well as provided a peek into how the ladies in that series will be treated by males like myself, but you should really get going to the next segment before you get carried away with trying to dissect my adoration for Miss Puff. I've seen your drafts on how you were tearing into my literal night owl dad Sirt's claim of Miss Celeste from the Animal Crossing universe being his bae, and..."

<Kehtas> *Hears "Mukai" from the Kanon 2006/Visual Novel OST playing in his head as he thinks back to certain firm reasons Splooshi mentioned for why Sirt X Celeste will never happen, such as being "as old as her, quote-on-quote, 'Nii Nii' Blathers" & "able to defeat her in physical combat within minutes", causing a whole new wave of tears to surge forth!*

<Kehtas> "AND--" *Abruptly RUNS out of the area, flippers at his sides like an actual runner, and wails aloud as he leaves a stream of tears!* "SIRT!!" *Is now GONE from the area!*

<RL Me> "He's not kidding about those drafts. Perhaps I'll unleash them in this week's Official Conquest Thread at the Online section of these boards this Thursday night? Anyways, let us FINALLY get started on my most favorite section of these posts at last!"
*Cue "Severe pulse [Difficult Fight]" by Tosh from the End of justice -Heterodoxy Seeker- album (aka, a Live-A-Live doujin remix album)*

Custom Loadouts:


As we're finally starting to wind down on the remaining combatants we've yet to cover, I can honestly say that from who's remaining, the odds of running into multiple folks in a row who I'd dub the Custom Superstars (how I missed gushing over Doctor Mario's Down 2 for FINALLY giving him a GOOD recovery range AND a lingering KO move that KOs EARLY, as well as his Side 3 being able to blow back even OUR recovery, is... unfortunate. :<) are going to sharply rise. In fact, everyone else I didn't mention above with Kehtas are folks who I WOULD consider to be among the Custom Superstars, including this week's Marthcina and Kuradoberi Jam-- er, WFT.

3323 from Marthcina is my personal #1 deck with them. However, you'll more likely see the following decks: 3123, 3113, 1123, 1113.
If anyone DOES rep Side 3, then these decks might be seen: 3313, 1313, 1323.

I honestly would NOT expect Side 2, Effortless Blade, OR Down 2, Easy Counter, to EVER show up. Neutral 2, Storm Thrust, and Up 3, Dolphin Jump, would be more likely to show up than those two, but against us specifically, I'm not expecting those two moves to show up either. (Pssst, try Neutral 2 against the likes of Mac & Cloud when they're off-stage~ ;3).

Of all of their moves, the one that I'm most certain about showing up is Down 3, Iai Counter, for reasons I'll get to, soon enough.


Neutral 3, Dashing Assault
, greatly enhances their horizontal attack range and movement abilities, especially when recovering, at the expense of being poor at breaking shields.
Its movement range when fully charged is about 2/3 of FD. Tapped is about 1/3 of FD.
Its attack range when fully charged is slightly above 2/3 of FD, due to how far forward Marthcina sticks out their blades. Tapped is almost 1/2 of FD.
Simply put, if you suspect that this attack will finish in its entirety, whether tapped OR charged (depending on where they are when they started this move), Paradigm Shift in preparation of them being right up in your face VERY soon. This CAN be stuffed by Clays, IF they've been shot-up, PRIOR to Marthcina's blade actually reaching the Clay PRIOR to the shoot-up. However, you'll have to be quite fast at shooting it up, since the disjointed comfort range of Neutral 3 is quite far. Otherwise they'll likely plow through it and into you. QDA can help you challenge this move easier than some others when the blade's already coming at you, due to its speedy firing rate.

Side 3, Heavy Blade
, is one of my personal favorite attacks of theirs, alongside Down 3, that trades Side 1's speed for raw damage per slash. It takes longer to finish the whole 4 slash string with this than it does for Side 1.
This, along with Neutral 3, can actually plow through our entire arsenal, breaking Clays, pushing Cans, and OHKO-ing Gunmen. Doing so will make reaching and possibly landing the 4th Slash Ender easier to do, though its tell is quite obvious regardless (Marthcina ABSOLUTELY HAS TO go through the 1st 3 Slashes before getting to any 4th Slash Ender!). If the standard All Forward B string is used (red swings), they can travel about 1/4 of the way across FD, though the blade's range is about 1/3 of FD.
Connecting anything after the 1st slash hits is not likely to happen, due to each slash doing too much knockback to smoothly connect into each other, removing Side 1's ability to reliably de-stale their other KO moves while quickly building damage. Transitioning from each slash takes longer as well, though the power of the last slashes in each string Ender is a scary sight to confront, whether it's 4th Down B Finisher's sheer damage output (which WILL eventually KO, unlike Side 1's version of this), 4th Up B Finisher's skyward launching, or 4th Side B Finisher's sheer knockback, especially when tippered by Marth.
How soon can the Side Finisher KO? At the edges, around 40+%, and no DI at all, TIPPERING the 4th Forward B Slash WILL KO! At center stage, with the previously stated conditions, including tipper, it WILL KO at 50+%!
So if you're at 50+%, and Custom Marthcina has Side 3 on deck, they might start looking to smuggle in the 4th Forward B Slash. If you get Shield Broken, the Tippered 4th Side B Finisher will likely become the prime punish of choice. Oh, and the Side Side Up Side pattern moves Marthcina a little LESS forward than Side Side Side Side, which CAN be useful for ensuring the Tipper Finish.


Crescent Slash (Up 2)
boosts their horizontal recovery at the expense of their vertical recovery. Going vertically deep isn't going to happen with this, but going horizontally far out will. On-stage horizontal mobility is boosted with this (its travel distance is 1/4 of FD, its far-out anti-air option is handy for getting in on us, his horizontal movement speed when put in the Helpless Freefall state is boosted, AND it can confront Super Duck Jump's windbox), and the ability to shark platforms at Lylat Cruise and T&C and Battlefield variants improve as well, like Peach's Side 3.
FThrow --> Up 2 at low percents is practically guaranteed, giving them a decent way to build damage off of a throw.
Its KO power is beyond that of Up 1, especially at walk-offs, since they can link into it off of Grab Releases (if that IS still a thing).

Thankfully for us canines, it doesn't start-up AS fast as Up 1 (a worse Guard Cancel option!), since Up 2 starts up at frame 9, nor does it snap to the ledge as quickly as Up 1 does (it can still hit you before the ledge is grabbed onto, though).

Down 3, Iai Counter
-- *Suddenly WISHES that Tachibana Ukyo from Samurai Shodown, Tatane Hibiki from The Last Blade 2, Corona from Wonderful World, and other Iaijitsu practitioners were in Smash, all of a sudden....*
(If they bother using their Down Three on any part of my arsenal while I'm far enough away from him, they'll completely MISS me!)

Yeah um, about that... Its horizontal attack range is even farther than Down 1's: As in, they gain another option for getting in on us, since there are certain pokes that Marthcina's Down 1 would normally miss, that Down 3 can catch.

If Iai actually lands, you'll be flung behind them, and if their backs are to the Blast Zones, you might find yourself getting KO'd sooner than you think, even with proper DI (should be Downwards AND Towards the Stage, I believe). It may not do as much damage as Down 1, but its payoff can be even greater than Down 1's, depending on WHERE the both of you are when this move connects. 8o

<Dimahoo Announcer upon the Boss of a Stage being in-bound> "WERNING, WERNING, BE CAREFUL!" 8O

If you bring Up 2, Duck Jump Snag, to this MU, Marthcina gains the ability to freely COUNTER your Up 2 with either Down 1 or Down 3. Said "WERNING" would also be applicable against just about ANYONE who has a Counter. If you plan on taking Up 2, hope for a wall to wall-jump your way to reducing your travel distance from the start of Up 2 to the ledge. With some testing, however, it IS possible for his Down 3 to not only miss, but even get hit out of it by thee Up 2 itself. I suppose if Marthcina really wants to Counter your Up 2, they may want to stick with Down 1 for that purpose. Whether or not they'd want to give up Down 3's extra horizontal range and the Cloud/Ganondorf-DSmash-at-edge & anti-upclose-edgeguard (i.e. the Duo themselves attempting to lingering NAir them while off-stage) powers....

The length of time that it will actively Counter attacks is the shortest of the 3 (Easy Counter has the longest active frames, but the lowest payoff), so good timing will be necessary on Marthcina's part to actually Counter your attacks. The actual hit also comes out SLIGHTLY slower than Down 1's, which does help explain the above paragraph regarding DH's Up 2 punishing it.


Our Loadout
would be either 31x1 (Down 1, as noted by Wispbae, is a solid option here) or 31x2. While 31x3 COULD work on the basis of Zigzag + Mega being such complements for each other, I personally wouldn't try it, if mainly because there's nothing for Mega to guard you from.

Zigzag
-- *Insert reasons that I've gushed over this move during the last several posts here, including the FE Roy MU post*.

While I'm still a fan of Up 2, how I've not mentioned its free-ness to Counters until now is... odd of me, to say the least. It's still a great Wakeup DP, sure, but it's literally HARD-Countered if predicted, especially during recoveries. *Memories of Kasumi Todoh, Tatane Hibiki, and even Karin Kanzuki and their Counters overturning Wakeup DPs flow through the mind*

Up 3, Super Duck Jump, as stated during the Mac MU, blows away Counters, though unlike Roy, Marthcina's recovery ranges are farther than his, making blowback gimps harder to do, especially if Marthcina's running Up 2. Speaking of their Ups, Marthcina's Up 1 & 2 blows up DH's Up 3 for free if they catch it during start-up.

Down 2, Quick Draw Aces
, has a greater chance of getting its shots out in time against Marthcina's Neutral 3, Up 2, and even Side 3 (if you DO see this move, that is) than our Down 1 does, allowing us to compete with those moves from farther away than our Tipper FAir range. Like with Roy, they'll generally be close enough where its lack of range is not too much of an issue.


Stage Picks:

Recommendations here would generally be the same as against Roy, but with one major detail: Platforms. Like in Melee, Marth LOVES to shark those above him with his Tipper Smashes, especially since he's got the walk speed to give chase to anyone attempting to come down from there. Any stage styled after Battlefield are to be handled with extreme caution if you wind up there. Lylat Cruise as well is suspect to his Tipper Sharking.


Oh, and Marthcina's Side 3, Up 2, and Down 3 all make Castle Siege, Delfino, and even Smashville very dangerous locales to go, due to how wonderfully they take advantage of their short horizontal Blast Zones (4th Up Slash Finisher of Heavy Blade is the go-to punish for low ceiling stages that would also include Dream Land 64-- That Ender can shark the platforms there!).

Ratios:


WithOUT Customs: +1 in favor of DH.

WITH Customs: 0 / Even.



EDIT: Oh and according to this: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-4-patch-notes.430023/

Lucina got these buffs:

Nair First Hit/Second Hit Damage: 3.345/7.6 -> 4.2/8.5
Fair Damage: 8.5 -> 10.5
Bair Damage: 9.975 -> 11.8
Uair Damage: 9.975 -> 11.4
Dair Normal/Meteor Damage: 11.4/13,13 -> 12.3/14.2



And Marth got these buffs:

Nair First Hit Sour/Tipper Damage: 3/4 -> 3.5/5
Nair Second Hit Sour/Tipper Damage: 7/9 -> 7/9.5
Fair Sour/Tipper Damage: 7/10 -> 8/11.5
Bair Tipper Damage: 12 -> 12.5
Uair Sour/Tipper Damage: 9/12 -> 9.5/13
Dair Sour/Sweet/Meteor Damage: 11/13/14 -> 12/14/15
Jab 1 Duration: 28F -> 25F
Ftilt Duration: 36F -> 33F
Utilt Duration: 36F -> 33F
Dsmash Duration: 64F -> 54F
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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I earnestly hope no one minds me making a double-post here, since I've come bearing MUCH intel on Sm4sh's inspirationally funnier & more grown-up representative of Miss Kuradoberi Jam from Guilty Gear. :3
Plus, it's not AS frequently visited as it used to be... 3:


Match Vid References:

Skrublord (Wii-fit Trainer) Vs. CasualJ (Duck Hunt) Smash 4 life 9/19
https://youtu.be/FbufExxsagQ?t=41s

[WERNING! This and the next set are from before the big mid-2015 patch where she got a bunch of buffs. Proceed with caution.]
Cobbs Commentates Duck Hunt (Cobbs) vs Wii Fit Trainer (Marss) Super Smash Bros 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhypMuuief8

SIM 2015 - Purner (Duck Hunt) vs Sinogara (WFT/Link)
https://youtu.be/2VTUcQaEZj4?t=54s

https://www.youtube.com/user/AceStarThe3rd/search?query=Wii+Fit+Trainer
AceStarThe3rd's YT Channel, which features LOTS of eps on WFT (17 alone for Undefeatable!), who he mains (alongside a few others). However, a major NSFW warning should be applied to all of his vids, due to how frequently he uses E-Sports UNfriendly language in them (read: Much cussing, however playful he may be about it). He also livestreams on Twitch sometimes, though his times for doing so are rather late in my time zone, which is -8 UTC Pacific Time (He's streaming at around 11 PM & beyond. Could be earlier, but I'm not sure how early. Lately, he's been streaming Paper Jam, though I imagine he's used to folks talking about Sm4sh while he's streaming other games. XD) Considering how much trouble I've had finding footage of this MU, I figured that sharing a notable tournament player/YouTube personality who mains her would have to do in the absence of such footage. There's also other noteworthy players to look for, like JohnNumbers, TK Breezy, and, I kid you not, this is a legitimate identity that's somehow allowed on Twitch livestreams, Wii Twerk Trainer. O.O


At last, we're finally going to cover thee person I've been calling Jam from GG for quite a while now. More than anyone else, WFT seriously reminds me of her for a host of reasons, to such an extent that during this post, I MIGHT find myself referring to WFT as Jam at some points. Thus, I'd like to state this in blue for this specific post's universe, just in case I make that kind of nicknaming blunder at some point in this post: WFT = Jam. If there is anyone from GG that DH would be most similar to, GAMEPLAY-WISE ONLY, it'd be Bridget, who I mained alongside Anji Mito (autoguards by sticking out certain normals at certain times, just like Orphe from Wonderful World, who I also mained~) and Baiken (free guard cancels like anyone in the SNES Sailor Moon 2D Fighters~), due to HIS Yo-Yo mechanic having as much of a visibly commanding presence as our arsenal does, as well as how surprisingly decent the CQC capabilities of both can be when said arsenal's out there. I'll be having these two in mind at various points as this post goes on, so for a look at how the both of them function, as well as how their MU is played at a high level, there's this: (NSFW warning for some foul language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYXXLt9K02U)

WFT is also someone who I WISH had a shot at winning the Online Weekly Conquests in FG Anywhere, but for one reason or another, she consistently scores last place, whenever she shows up, discouraging me from wanting to rep her whenever she does show up. :<


*Cue "Babel Noise [or Nose... >_>] (Jam's Theme)" by Daisuke Ishiwatari from the Guilty Gear X OST*


"HEAVEN AND OR HELL, DUEL ONE, LET'S ROCK!" 8D

((Thanks Miss BaeYO, for answering the question of whether or not I could type out the not-so-E-Sports-friendly word above~ =D))

So, why would I make such a comparison?

1. Both have short & stubby limbs in a fighter where the majority of the cast have longer-ranged limbs & weapons (WFT better compensates for this by striking BOTH sides of herself during many of her moves, making not only rolling INTO her, but even attempting a cross-up on her at 100+% incredibly dangerous, especially if Deep Breathing is active.) *Is suddenly reminded of the Twelve VS Elena MU from SF3:3S, which was one of Twelve's WORST MUs, up there with Ken & Chun-Li... and empathetically cringes for Twelve, who he repped!*

2. They're among the faster characters in terms of movement speed and frame data (both in the air and on the ground), though this might be more true for Jam,

3. They can combo/juggle folks for quite a while, once they actually land a solid hit (especially Jam), dealing much damage in the process,

4. Both have a way to advance towards folks while safely traveling under projectiles:
Jam with her QCF+S (xx P/K (S & HS are saved for when she's past the projectile, otherwise she'll get hit by said projectiles if she presses either of those 2 buttons too soon.)) Special Move, and WFT with her Planking Crawl (It greatly lowers her profile better than our crawl (which IS faster than hers, thankfully) and even DTilt does, allowing her to crawl underneath Gunmen, overly-B-pressed Cans, and possibly even shot-up Clays!), and

5. Both have a Special Move Stance that can power up themselves. For Jam, it's 1 of 3 Special Kick Moves (QCF/DP/QCB + K) at a time (unless you spend 25% of your Tension Gauge to EX the Stance to power up each SKM at once. Note: You can hold up to 3 power-ups for any specific SKM, and they'll only go away when 1. you actually DO the specific SKM, and 2. the round ends.). WFT's Deep Breathing, however, for a limited active time, powers up the damage & knockback of every single attack she has (not just her other Specials), AND it heals her for 2%. She'll most likely activate this when you're at 100+% to ensure that the next hit she lands will take your stock. She might also activate this near the beginning of your stock for scoring extra damage off of anything she lands. *Is suddenly reminded of the T.O.P. health gauge placement mechanic from Garou: Mark of the Wolves...*

Jam, unlike WFT, can parry standing attacks & aerials, and directly cancel 3 of her Special Kick Moves into each other, each one being power up-able with a separate Special Move Stance. (Ex. QCB + K xx QCF + K xx DP + K.
QCF + K xx DP + K xx QCF + K IS possible as well, but QCF + K 3 times in a row is NOT) Down Down + K or S or HS corresponds to a certain SKM. She's also got a divekick in the form of Down Down + K in the air for not only mixing up her landings (auto-corrects upon aerially passing your opponent for a cross-up!), but also for quickly getting back down to the ground for both safety & further mixups.

WFT, unlike Jam, has 2 actual projectiles that can help extend her attack range to go beyond Jam's. She also can heal off of fully charged SSes (2%), fully charged Sweeping SSes (Neutral 3 for 3%), and properly timed Deep Breathings (2%)/ Steady Breathings (Down 3 for 5%). Both Enriched SS & Volatile Breathing will NOT heal her at all, so if she somehow decides to run both at once, you need not be concerned about this aspect of her. Also unlike Jam, she DOES have a wall-jump, which DOES grant her a good amount of vertical upward distance like Mac's & Cloud's.

She also has Short Hop DRUMMED INTO MASHED Side B for throwing out the Header Ball before landing withOUT ANY LAG (ala Bowser's SH Side 3!) for covering either:

1. Straight ahead of herself (Default Side 1)
2. A 45 degree angle downwards & in front of herself (Side 3, Weighted Header)
3. A 45 degree angle upwards & in front of herself (Side 2, Huge Header)

Keep a close eye on whether or not Jam is slightly elevated off the ground more than usual when you see her Side B while on the ground, as well as how quickly she throws out the Volleyball after starting up Side B. If you DO notice that, either back off or proceed with much caution, because she'll get to do as she pleases while the volley ball's out there, whether an aerial before coming down, or any grounded attack upon landing laglessly.

(Depending on which Gunman I'm running, as well as where said Gunman is, we can use him as a Guardian against this approach option.)

<RL Me> "That we can, especially if she drops the input (it CAN be hard to properly pull it off consistently, IMO), which will lead to a free punish."

If you're like me, who'd want to get in on WFT, who will likely be trying to zone you out with Headers & Suns, make use of your Gunmen Guardians , your Crawl, and even your profile-lowering DTilt to handle her barrage of Suns & Volleyballs. Why do I want in, beyond that being my MO? As AceStarThe3rd pointed out during one of his many Undefeatable eps on WFT, it's very important for us to rush her down, because if we give her too much space, she'll use it to throw out charged (Sweeping) SSes & properly/patiently timed Down 1/3s, both of which will heal her. This also makes her like Q from 3rd Strike (who I mained, along with Yang, Alex, and even Twelve-- *INB4 "NOBODY seriously mains Tweleve!" jokes/teases*), who'd use that open space to Taunt his way to defense boosts (If the ground shakes, he's earned the boost. Taunt 3 times, and you'll have the highest defense out of everyone) before either turtling up or, if you're me, rushing down. In serious tournament matches that judge time-outs by whoever had the lowest percent when time's up, this is one way that she can steal the win from us.

Once you're actually in, you'll want her hovering around your tips, since your melee range generally outranges her. If she does try to get in on you, expect NAirs, BAirs, and Headers to be among her aerial lineup of choice, due to their speed and damage payoffs (NAir is a WONDERFUL damage builder, dealing 14% if both hits connect! Moreso if DB is active).

This is probably more of an FG Teams strat, but if she decides to hang out at the ledge and chuck Suns & Volleyballs from there, a style that I've had the honor of running into sometime ago, you'll need your Can out there, along with Gunmen, to block them off while slowly inching your way towards her, lest those projectiles pass by you and interfere with your partner, who may or may not in peril themselves, whether by her partner, or her projectiles setting up her partner for a big punish.

'Course, as AceStarThe3rd and other WFT players have made a point out ot this, directly challenging WFT off-stage for the deep edgeguard with our own physical bodies withOUT our arsenal out there is a horrible idea, due to the variety of counterattacks she has to punish us for that, such as the 3 spikes she has (DAir, Side B's Headbutt, the Back Foot of FAir), and Up 1/2's stage spiking powers, essentially making us like contestants on the Game Show Network's Russian Roulette, where one wrong answer can mean falling down the Drop Zone. Our FAir will probably be our safest aerial to throw out while we're out there, but genuinely gimping her isn't really going to reliably happen unless we footstool her or something.

As for us recovering against her, we're in for a doozy, since the above stated tools can also accompany charged Suns, thee Volleyballs, and UAir. If there's a wall behind her, she, much like ourselves, can go even deeper for the edgeguard than usual, due to her wall-jump (which changes the focus of her FAir to the Upward Arm). Along with Cans, Gunmen block off Suns & Headers, so if you read those attacks, we can protect ourselves with them. Our UAir and FAir can also help us out here, since they outrange all of her aerial normals.

Oh, and if you suspect that she'll go for the USmash while you're trying to land, I would NOT try to challenge it with our own body like during fastfall NAir, because as the Loading Screen Tips mentioned, it has invincibility like G&W's USmash, ensuring that you will likely lose to it.


*Cue "Sticks and Stones (Jam's Theme)" by Shin Hae Chul & N.EX.T. from the Guilty Gear XX #Reload Korean Version O.S.T.*


"DUEL TWO, LET'S ROCK!" 8D


Custom Loadouts:

Much like Marthcina earlier this week, WFT substantially improves with Customs On to such an extent that she practically becomes like EX Jam, who is a console exclusive version of Jam that does NOT make appearances in actual tournaments. Unlike our current state of near-fully-global extinction regarding Custom Specials, the COMPLETE extinction of the EX versions of the GG crew in actual tournaments is what I'm actually OK with, for she is NOT selectable in the Arcade versions AT ALL (even with in-game codes!), which has been thee traditional competitive standard since the early 90's, plus as far as I'm aware, the EX versions were neither designed nor meant to be balanced for competitive play anyways, hence the general lack of attention given to them. If the creators REALLY wanted them to be used in serious competitive play, they would've LONG since properly implemented them in thee Arcade versions, ALL the way back in the early 2000s, like how Samurai Shodown 3 & 4 in the mid 90's had the Slash and Bust versions of each character selectable in thee Arcade versions after picking a character. Now if only Nintendo would be more upfront about whether or not they wanted Custom Specials to be meant for serious competitive play, because the 1.1.4 patch and the potential ruleset for EVO 2016 MIGHT determine whether or not these Custom Loadouts will have any serious future in the meta, or if they'll be as casually buried as the EX versions of the GG crew and the Unlimited versions of the BlazBlue crew....

But I digress. Now then, WFT will likely bring 332x or 322x or 331x or 321x or 312x or 311x. I'd personally rep 3322, but the more likely picks will probably be either 3321 or 3323 or 3311 or 3313.


Sweeping Sun Salutation (Neutral 3)
pierces through our entire arsenal, even if was merely tapped/mashed out (its range if done this way is 1/2 of FD. Fully charged range is 2/3 of FD, with a damage output of around 10% if fired upclose). In terms of KO power by itself, it's the worst of the 3, since there's hardly a difference in launching distance between 0% and 50% and 100% and 150% and 200%. However, despite this, the greatest threat that Sweeping wields, besides freely disrepecting your entire arsenal, is the same region that Zard's Dragon Rush, Jr's Koopa Drift, and Fox's Twisting Fox ALL threaten powerfully: The Side Blast Zones. As low as 0%, if WFT catches you near a Side Blast Zone with Sweeping fully charged, you very well MIGHT get KO'd by it pushing you INTO the Blast Zone. Even if you DO survive such an attempt, it can push you back enough to probably send you off-stage at the very least, allowing WFT a chance to edgeguard you for either some damage or even a gimp.

This move OR her Up 2 + Walk-Offs of Delfino/Castle Siege/Umbra Clock Tower & Smashville's 1 platform near the edges = *Cue the goofy "D8" scream from Super Mario Maker*


This heals her by 3% if fully charged before firing, which is 1% more than Neutral 1's 2%, but it has the slowest charge time of the 3 SSes. Even with DB, its KO power won't improve, though it WILL deal slightly more damage.

Neutral 2, Enriched SS, has the greatest damage & KO power of the 3 withOUT relying on walk-offs/Smashville, but it'll never heal her, and its quite small when fully charged (DH can actually CRAWL under it!). It has the fastest charging time of the 3, so it'll be the most frequently seen of the 3. When mashed, its quite large & weak, travels slowly, and repeatable enough to make jokingly shouting "Hadouken!" ST style seem plausible... until it meets with any part of our arsenal, especially Mega Gunmen. >=)
Combined with DB, its KO power is the best of 3 SSes, rivalling that of Samus's Melee Charge Shot. It'll still lose to our entire arsenal, thankfully. :)


Side 2, Huge Header
, is the biggest and slowest of the 3 Volleyballs, but its the longest lasting of the 3 that can REALLY control much space for her. She can launch it with other moves besides the opening Headbutt for extra power and knockback on the Volleyball itself (not sure if it can match Weighted Header's KO Power...), as well as providing cover fire for her approaches. Quite the unique move that's reminiscient of Guilty Gear Venom's Cue Balls....

There's just one major problem with this move: This, like TRIPLE D'S GORDOS, can be sent BACK to her for actual damage and even a KO at high enough percents. Our whole arsenal can do this, which is what makes Triple D's MU against us so difficult for him, even WITH Customs (Best he can do for his Gordos is to run Side 3, Bouncing Gordo). Since this attribute is only REALLY pronounced with Side 2, it may not a move you can expect to see repped against us.


Side 3, Weighted Header, covers an angle that she normally struggles covering withOUT RAR FAir: 45 degrees in front of her and below her. It also deals more damage than Side 1 does, and the Volleyball itself WILL KO eventually (150+% is a reliable number to look for this). The angle it covers makes for GREAT cover fire, since she can actually throw out another attack WHILE it's out & about. She DOES lose a significant amount of straight-forward attack range for repping this, so unless she's got a Sun charged, she can't poke from as far away as she normally would be able to. This, like the other Headers, WILL lose to our entire arsenal, especially Mega Gunmen.


Up 2, Jumbo Hoops
, is one of the more "inFamous" moves that, much like Kong Cyclone, Helicopter Kick, & Twisting Fox, I ADORE for how capable it is at carrying folks from one side of the stage to the other. More practically, you can guard cancel into it to carry folks from wherever you are, ALL the way to the Side Blast Zones. Walk-offs and the one platform at Smashville make this safer to do, since there's no large Drop Zones to fall into. At low percents, it's a wonderful damage builder ("From 0 to 30, in 2.5~") that COULD STILL be capable of carrying you out to the Side Blast Zones.

Is there actual prices for using this? YES! While its horizontal recovery range is as mind-blowingly fantastic as Customtena's Jump Glide, much like that move, its vertical recovery range is terrible, though unlike Customtena, WFT does have a wall-jump to help compensate for this, provided that we DO go to a walled stage, which, IMO, we shouldn't let her have. It also has the longest active time of the 3 Hoops, especially if its properly mashed, which is great for carryouts, but bad for personal safety if whiffed. Landing lag is probably also the worst of the 3, making her desire to reach the ledge quite clear.


Down 2, Volatile Breathing
, is the only version of Breathing that can directly hit you upon its completion. Said explosion pierces your entire arsenal all at once (even Megas!), AND it can hit you, all at the same time. Coming down with either Down 1 or even Down 2 is going to be a risky idea with this move around (There WILL be a light blue circle to let you know when this move is coming, at least). This will also beat all 3 of our Up B moves if properly spaced & timed.

Range? About 1/4 to 1/3 of FD horizontally. Vertically, it WILL reach you below the stage (if you hang onto the ledge for too long, this WILL catch you!), so if she reads the wall-jump and/or Up B, this MIGHT be used to literally blow that mix-up. If used off-stage, said range will be a blessing for her, since she can gimp us with this, if it doesn't KO us outright, & if we spent our 2nd jump prior to this.

Damage? 8% if far away, 15% if upclose. When to expect it to KO? 110+% near the edges, 125+% at center stage. Assuming no DI, btw.

Retry times are the shortest of the 3, making multiple uses of this more feasible. Shorter than DB and especially the next move.

However! This will NEVER heal her, NOR will it boost her attack, KO, OR defensive powers!
Despite the above red, this MIGHT be worth using, so as to have another tool with which to challenge our arsenal with. I just wonder if it's worth that price, and/or if anyone other than me is willing to pay that price....


Down 3, Steady Breathing
, heals her by 5%, but rather than a boost to her attack & KO power, this boosts her defense, though unlike Cloud with a full LB bar, this will NOT make her a fastfaller, NOR boost her overall movement speed. It does NOT hinder it like Shulk's (Decisive/Hyper) Shield Arts, either.

Its active time seems to be about the same as DB, though its Retry time is the longest of the 3 Breaths, making the timing of using this VERY important, much like the decision of whether or not to use up your entire super meter all at once or in parts in SFA3, where every single match starts off with BOTH players with a FULL bar of meter. Most likely, she'll be at 100+% when you'll see this.


Luckily for us, we become like EX Bridget to combat Custom Trainer's status as EX Jam. We'll likely bring either 3x23 or 3x21. Specifically, those would be either 3123 or 3121. 3122 MIGHT be worthwhile if she brings 3x22 or 3x12. I'd personally go with 3123, especially if you do NOT see her running either Neutral 3 and/or Down 2. I DO wonder if our Side 2 or Side 3 will be worth repping for this MU, due to both her crawl and Sweeping....

Zigzag
generally won't blow up in our faces when any part of her arsenal (including Down 2) collides with it, making it a less self-destructive Guardian of sorts, handy for when any Gunman is KO'd or otherwise away from you. It MIGHT be more difficult to properly B-Mash it against her, due to her floatiness, but if pulled off, will still deal good damage, and eventually KO off the top sooner than against some others as well, especially at low ceiling stages, which MIGHT be where we'll want to take her, since other than with USmash & UAir, she's not particularly known to look for KO opportunities off the top, as far as I'm aware, unlike Ryu or ZSS or possibly BaeYO. Seeing as how she'll often take to the skies (quite likely for Side 3), this can be a great move for pestering her while she's up there.

Rising Clay goes low enough to catch her crawling around, though Clay Break can arc too high upwards if you use the Smash input (Held input CAN catch her, but you'll need some distance away from her for this to be reliable). Is Side 2's lack of power or Side 3's lack of consistency worth this? Weighted Header crushes both, Volatile Breathing blows both up, and yet both pass through Sweeping.

Our Wakeup DP, Duck Jump Snag (Up 2)
, is akin to Bridget's Wakeup DP, for it can bail us out of trouble, punish her for falling into planned frame traps, and help us return to the stage against her wide variety of edgeguarding tools (which Wispbae has noted). It'll solidly lose to her Down 2, Side 3, and Neutral 3, though.

Why the Gunmen confusion? Her Neutral 3 and even Down 2 both put a dent into solidly recommending Mega Gunmen, though I'd like to state this in red: All Header types will be blocked off by all Gunmen types.


Down 1 COULD work here, for while Jam might be speedy, she's not THAT speedy enough to make me think of her as Roythcina or LB!Cloud, plus she's got Headers for our Guardians to block off, though the speed of her Side 3 can be quick enough to KO Down 1s before their shots come out.

Down 2 can definitely make a nice, distant interrupter of her Breaths (especially Volatile), as well as her SH Headers, though its lack of range can be a problem, despite WFT wanting to get in on us, due to her not necessarily having to be constantly coming at us like Roythcina. If she's running 3xx2, then this will be your best option for ensuring that you'll get to use their shots. It DOES complement Clay Break quite a bit, since it covers just far enough where once QDA stops reaching, Clay Break starts reaching.


Ratios:

WithOUT Customs: +1 DH if we aggressively rush her down. 0 if we defensively lame her out.
It is as much in our favor against WFT as it is in Bridget's favor against Jam, as stated in the Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R match vid provided earlier, IF we make sure that she doesn't go healing herself like SF3/USF4 Elena with SA3/U2 (whose melee range exceeds hers, btw).

WITH Customs: 0 with either style.
 
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TheWorstMuppet

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Duck Hunt vs. Wii Fit Trainer! Not something I'd ever thought I'd see a few years ago. My flatmate mains 'er! Les do this!

:4duckhunt:
Pro's for Duck Hunt:
  • Clay Pigeon and Gunmen can take the force of fully charged Sun Salutation.
  • Wii Fit generally doesn't suit the fully aggressive playstyle, so some space is allowed to set up projectiles.
  • Reverse-Bairing the Can can be a good way of preventing Wii Fit from hanging off the ledge.
  • Wii Fit Trainers Smash Attacks are laggy enough that you won't get caught out by them on their own most of the time.
:4wiifit:
Con's for Duck Hunt:
  • You don't want to challenge Wii Fit Trainer offstage. Ya just don't. Her header spikes and I hafta remind myself of that every time! Wii Fit just has a million reasons to remain defensive offstage. She's a really good defensive character overall.
  • Just like Duck Hunt is good covering the stage, Wii Fit is no different. Fully charged Sun Salutation travels across the width of every legal stage as does her Header. Landing will be difficult with Wii Fit on the ground.
  • Wii Fit Trainers Deep Breathing provides a 30% power boost for 7 seconds. I haven't tested it out, but I wonder if SS with DB attached would plow through Duck Hunts Clay Pigeons/Gunmen. Chances are, WFT can get the kill way earlier than you can (though that's a given at this point).
What I like and dislike about this MU is just how slow it can be. It's not like fighting a Shiek or Sonic or even a Toon Link. You're not forced to constantly maneuver around the stage trying to match the tempo of your opponent. With this MU, you can afford to slow down a bit and set stuff up.

The downside of this is getting actual hits in on your opponent proves more difficult here than in some other MU's I know. WFT is perfectly comfortable offstage most of the time and will most likely wait for you to approach, at least thats what my flatmate likes to do. And I fall for it cause I'm a sucker.

What I like to do though, in that situation, is back air the can and start shooting it once it's over Wii Fit Trainers head so it comes back towards me, forcing WFT to get up off the ledge and then I respond accordingly (I like to hold fsmash charge while the can is coming back, hoping that they are so distracted by the can that they won't see me, but more often then not it doesn't land, so just pay attention to how they react. If they drop off the ledge, then you can let the can fall for a bit, shoot it again when its under the ledge so it hits the wall and bounces the other way and then by that point the can will be ready to explode and it will be covering the ledge. WFT is then forced to stall a little bit longer, raising the pressure up a little more.

---

I just want to talk a bit about WFT's Header. It's a really cool move that strikes me as being incredibly similar to Duck Hunts can! You can pull off some crazy stuff with it! If Wii Fit Trainer does an air dodge while setting up the Header, the ball will freefall. From there, WFT can do some pretty wacky things:

Jab 1: Sends the ball flying low forwards.
Jab 3: This sends the ball rolling across the floor (provided the first two jabs don't hit.)
Down Tilt: This sends the ball sailing behind WFT.
F-Tilt: WFT's back foot sends the ball flying straight up.
U-Tilt: This sends the ball in an arc behind WFT.
F-Smash: The ball goes flying forward at a slight upwards angle.
D-Smash: The ball goes flying rolling across the ground.
Grab: Here's an interesting one, if WFT manages to grab you midway through the balls descent from freefall, that adds up to a 10% pummel if the ball is at WFT's midsection (Credit goes to Lord_Espurr for finding that one) which can end up being a 23% throw!

Here's a vid for it! (Credit goes to Fancykong)
https://vine.co/v/ePbJ5tIK6d5

Lord_Espurr goes on to say:
"So you know how her back throw is two hits? This works when the first hit of the throw hits the ball into them while they are in hitstop from the second hit. Then when they go into the grab release animation, they'll still be in the hitstop from b throw before they fly off.

This is why it works best on midsize characters like Mario or Villager. Bigger characters like Bowser or DDD will get hit by the ball before they get hit by the second hit of b throw. If you drift a tiny bit to the left or right after canceling the header you can hit thinner characters, but I've only managed to do this once."


I reckon this would work on Duck Hunt, but I haven't tested it out yet and I would say that this would be quite a situational set up, but it would be really cool if pulled off properly!

I would say these two characters are pretty dang similar to one another. Both of them like space to set up, both of them like their space to do these things. I would say that Duck Hunt has the upper hand slightly (and glancing through the Wii Fit boards, it seems they agree) but I'll still put this down as a 0, seeing as I haven't had a good lead against my flatmate's WiiFit yet. Here's hoping it'll happen someday. :083:
 

Erimir

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I'm not an amazing player, so I'm not going to give a rating, but for me I find it a difficult matchup probably because I rely a little too much on baiting with projectiles which DH is good at dealing with. But the main annoying thing here is that DH's projectiles can block WFT's. (I almost always do much, much better my other main, Mega Man, because pellets can interfere with some of DH's projectiles and Metal Blade and Leaf Shield can go through them, making it more difficult for DH to keep me out).

Something to keep in mind, though, is that the angle on Header can be varied depending on how you input the move (this is without getting into Header cancel setups). These angle changes also affect the timing of the ball. She can give it a less horizontal angle, which will make it harder to block with a Clay Pigeon.

But I don't really have a lot to add. I don't see a lot of Duck Hunts and not all of them are going to play optimally.
 

CAN-ACTION

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I guess some people here uhh ditched Duck Hunt or idk lmao

tfw actually needed help with Link & Capt. Falcon MU.
 

WispBae

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We have old archived posts on the MU (I think), and the discord is very helpful as well! I was talking to Dawangthang Dawangthang a couple months back about reviving this thread again, but we never came to a conclusion on what to do. I'll see if we can talk in person about it.
 

Sean²

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I guess some people here uhh ditched Duck Hunt or idk lmao

tfw actually needed help with Link & Capt. Falcon MU.
For Link, depends on the type of Link you are playing. If it's a campy Link, it's really just a matter of knowing: His projectiles beat or cancel out all of yours (or toss the can somewhere you don't want it to be), so you have to play the physical game. It's easy to perfect shield the boomerang and rush him down in the endlag of that move. Bombs are a bit harder to deal with but if you just kind of ignore them and go for Link instead, it gets a little less annoying. When I've fought campy Links in the past, I pretty much go full rushdown DHD. Fortunately, Link is kind of slow and the ones I have fought seem to rely on zoning and bomb setups, so if you work on perfect shielding the projectiles, you can pretty much ignore his setups and corner him rather than dealing with him out-zoning you and messing up all your own setups.

If he's a bit more offensive and in your face, watch out for Nair/bomb combos and try to stay out of his grab range (i.e. don't attack his shield) because un-staled dthrow/uair can kill fairly early. His grab is laggy but he can capitalize decently off of throws. Luckily most of Link's smashes have pretty high endlag so punishment is always possible. It seems pretty easy to shieldgrab Link off of pretty much any physical attack.

Source: I play a lot of Link players for some reason. Also I took a game off Izaw one time on wifi - my greatest achievement in my Smash "career" :awesome:
 

Swamp Sensei

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We have old archived posts on the MU (I think), and the discord is very helpful as well! I was talking to Dawangthang Dawangthang a couple months back about reviving this thread again, but we never came to a conclusion on what to do. I'll see if we can talk in person about it.
Perhaps instead of one big thread, you have several smaller ones.

The R.O.B. and Charizard boards do that and while it makes multiple topics, it allows things to stay focused. Just a thought.


Speaking of Charizard though...

The Charizard boards are currently talking about the Dog vs Dragon matchup.

https://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-duck-hunt.440810/

Come on over and tell us what you think. Or post it here if you think discussion is better here. Just quote me so I can put the comments in the Charizard boards too.
 

WispBae

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Perhaps instead of one big thread, you have several smaller ones.

The R.O.B. and Charizard boards do that and while it makes multiple topics, it allows things to stay focused. Just a thought.


Speaking of Charizard though...

The Charizard boards are currently talking about the Dog vs Dragon matchup.

https://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-duck-hunt.440810/

Come on over and tell us what you think. Or post it here if you think discussion is better here. Just quote me so I can put the comments in the Charizard boards too.
I was speaking with DaWangThang about this in person and may try it out for sure, or rather, allowing both a big MU thread to continue and let users post their own personal threads if they wanna keep talking about it...
 

TW.I.X

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If this thread is still in use, I can offer a lot of information about the PAC-MAN MU, considering that my friend who I practice with the most is a PAC-MAN main. We've sorta gotten a lot of data about the match up that is good to consider.
 

Dawangthang

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It is, it's just that most meta discussion happens on the Duck Hunt Discord nowadays. I've actually played the Pac Man MU a fair amount too. But I haven't really written anything down about it. There's really a lot to it.
 
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