Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion

Joshua Flynn

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Lucas:

Hoo boy. Nasty piece of work (prior to 1.1.0 I'd have laughed him off, but Nintendo decided to, along with Ness, buff the heck out of him). Not as powerful as Ness, but that's pretty moot. Where to start?

Lucas is a nightmare mainly because he inherits the 'no roll dodge vulnerability'* trait of Ness, which basically means you can say goodbye to edge guarding with forward smash attacks, or any smash attacks in general. Nintendo went down the 'OP Little Mac' route and opted to reduce end lag* on attacks meaning he quickly switches from smashing your face to spot dodging your reply or shielding.

His PK magnet is pretty useless but it has pushback a bit like Falco's reflector which adds some annoyance, but he's covered by the stick batting ability, which can rebound cans, frisbees and if he's good, gunmen's shots. His PK thunder is multi-hit which frame traps well and means gunmen won't absorb it and cans can't block it. It has a slightly reduced hitting power compared to Ness but it's still dangerous to DHD.

As with all OP characters, Lucas' air attacks can classically outrange DHD's (his range is smaller than Ness but you have to be pretty precise with the beak to avoid getting 'PK disco lights' to the face), although forward air can outmatch him - but only just.

Unlike Ness' PK fire, Lucas PK fire does one hit knock back which can cause serious aggro and interrupt, and thus can't be escaped by frisbee and can like Ness' does. And it can be used to gimp or edge guard, too. And just when you thought it wasn't difficult enough, Lucas' grab has extendo range with rope snake, which also doubles up as range extender for ledge grabs. Great(!)

Even worse, his back-throw, although slightly less powerful** is still dangerous, and coupled with rope snake extendo range, makes this a total female dog to deal with. He's up smash also falls into the 'OP character broad range' category, that can be dodged, but is pretty fatal early on.

DHD's only main KO advantage is the ability to repeatedly can Lucas once he's off stage because Lucas has a narrow window to execute PK thunder and thus must take the cans or risk dodging beyond his range. Lucas' PK thunder ability is very accident prone and so when he's off the ledge the odds of a mistake occurring (or if on a walled stage, the thunder fizzling out on the walls) increases the longer he remains off edge for.

Off edge, Lucas is pretty vulnerable to a well placed forward air or down air (however it's very dangerous if he's executing a PK thunder as it will easily KO doggie if the timing is bad).

DHD's only main advantage is projectile variety which can throw off stick rebound abuse, condition (to rebound and thus not handle a normal attack), and in-cap PK fire. Good projectile pressure will force Lucas to ground and to stay shielded where he does the least harm.

Lucas pros:
1) Rope snake with extendo grab and extendo ledge grab range
2) Immune to blocking of PK thunder (meaning no early KO by can intercepting thunder, or gunman protection)
3) Can deflect projectiles
4) Good air
5) Throws are deadly, and combine well with rope snake

Lucas cons:
1) Ledge recovery game can easily lead to a fatal mistake with PK thunder
2) PK magnet is all but useless
3) Air game not as good as Ness
4) Dash game not as good as Ness
5) PK thunder weaker than Ness
6) Throws weaker than Ness

DHD pros:
1) Projectile variety which throws off deflection
2) Easily mid-air canned due to narrow safe recovery window
3) Lucas has limited approach options on ledge KO because of DHD's good air.

DHD cons:
1) Easily launched by Lucas' moveset.
2) Trouble combating Lucas' air power.
3) Projectiles can be countered.
4) Roll dodge still doesn't dodge anything.

I have to give Lucas a +1.5 to +2. I will take a capable Lucas any day over a capable Ness (because Nintendo's range of the attacks they've given to Ness are stupid crazy large), but ideally I hope to see some actual roll dodge vulnerability and not so OP powermoves.

*These are opinions and might not actually be true, I haven't looked at the frame data but compared to his pre-1.1.0 he's certainly untouchable now. I've not KO'd a single roll dodging, ledge roll dodging or Lucas with their shield on point with a forward smash move in ages. Bowser and Donkey Kong, on the other hand...
**If by slightly less powerful you're comparing being hit by an airliner as opposed to being hit by a rocket, then yes
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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Lately, there's been plenty of buzz surrounding :4ryu: the Collarbone Shield Breaker with the reliable "Weak UTilt x?? xx True DP at 80+%" KO setup, due to how safe his A button moves are on shields now, given the increase on the amount of shield stun there is. I reckon this could be the week to help reign in the hype surrounding the World Warrior, despite me maining him alongside Jr.

Believe it or not, in his own series, I don't even play as Ryu (except in SF3: 2nd Impact, because being able to hold & legit combo into 2 unblockably stunning Denjin Hadoukens is amazing!) or Ken or Akuma (I DO rep Dan Hibiki and Sean and Sakura and the other not-so-traditional Shotos, though), due to not only virtually everyone else in the roster being more interesting than them (ex. Q, Twelve, R. Mika, Karin, Hayate, Nanase, Hakan, Poison, etc.), but also the figuratively true to me statement, "Everybody and their family members rep the Shotos!" leading me to pick up characters that have the tools to counter them (ex. Rose, Guy, Yang, etc.).

Plus, as a long-time fan of SF who can actually play it at a decent-to-mid-to-even-high-level, I'll get to make all sorts of high-level tournament play references to his series (ST, Alphas, EX, SF3, SF4, Marvel VS, etc.), wherever it's appropriately relevant for me to do so during my analysis. :3

I also remember sharing some tech regarding the DH VS Ryu MU from Ryu's perspective, back during the 1st few days of his release, and I wonder how much of it will hold up, as well as how much more detail we can add to it since then. I definitely remember Emblem Lord (or was it someone else?) claiming that Ryu has the edge against us canines some time ago, and I've been very curious about why he would be so confident in making that claim. Perhaps he'll come over and elaborate on that claim here if we do talk about Ryu this week.

As for another character I want to vote for, the temptation to say :4feroy: to make this the Week of the DLC Hype Train is quite strong. Considering his similarity to Marthcina, we technically might be able to cover them at the same time that we cover FE Roy. Plus, folks have been hyping him up as being among the best swordwielders in all of Sm4sh, alongside Metaknight & Ike, though I think it's because of his incredibly strong sweetspotted FSmash KO-ing folks at 60+% near the edges.

*INB4 me saying at the end of the Roy MU post that I'd rep :4roy: against :4feroy: if my DH or even Ryu gets blown up for the "Oh snapz, it's the Battle of the Roys! 8D" factor*

This'll be quite the week for me, considering how much I've been repping Roy (& by extension Marth & Lucina) & especially Ryu, if we do actually talk about them this week. At least their lack of Custom Loadouts will make it easier for us, should we be able to run Custom DH against them. >:3

Though I will admit, finding match vid references of the Ryu & Roy MUs that actually feature DH without using FG Anywhere or Tourney Mode is going to be hard, given that they are recent additions to the cast...
 

WispBae

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Alrighty then, we'll be doing Lucas and Roy then! I've also been thinking 3 MU's a week a bit too much, so let's try 2 for a while!


This is just TOO cute for me NOT to use!!!! <3<3<3

:4duckhunt:VS:4lucas:

PROS! (For Doggy!)
  • Like the other PK Boy, offstage they stuggle.
  • Doggy out-spams Lucas.
  • Lucas is on the lighter side.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • PK Fire and Rope Snake give him a great neutral game.
  • D-Throw combos.
  • Very good recovery.
I may be alone in this opinion, but I honestly think Lucas is slightly better than Ness, since he has more tools and options. They're less potent, but make up for a fantastic mix-up character.

On Doggy's side, setting up too much on Lucas is not a good idea, or at least mindless tossing projectiles. He can't absorb Doggies things, but when PK fire hits an object, the flame that expands from it can hit things behind the target, giving Lucas a very wide "anti-projectile". Fresh PK Fires will knock over gunmen, but not stale ones, so use this to your advantage should you see a pattern. Doggy does outmaneuver Lucas though, so a mix-up game is vital against him. Using your fair to poke, retreating gunmen, pivots grabs, keeping him out isn't too hard as long as your keep in mind the range of PK fire and his Rope Snake pokes.

Where Lucas excels is when he gets in. D-Throw combos are not fun, two spikes to be aware of, and strong smashes. Poking with rope snake and pk fire makes for a good neutral game. However, his Fair cannot be autocanelled, and rope snake does only around 1% and barely any flinching, so if you are hit on the ground with it, you should be able to mash A and get a jab in should he attempt the grab after.

I'd give Lucas +1. He's good, but doesn't have any glaring advantages over Doggy. He can simply KO more reliably than us. Space your projectile properly and not mindlessly, use the disjointed fair and don't be afraid to chase him offstage. If he loves rope snake, drop off Nairs will cover that, and if he loves PK Thunder, try to save your double jump and harass with Fairs. Doggy's recovery may be lame, but it does go pretty far!
 
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Login_Sinker

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I'm from the Lucas boards, here to give my input.

Overall, I think this match up is 50:50. In the neutral, I think that Duck Hunt wins fairly solidly. Lucas has a reflector in the form of his Fsmash, but it's not enough to deal with the brick wall of projectiles that Duck Hunt can put up. It's not impossible to deal with, of course, but it is not easy. Duck Hunt can control the pace of the match fairly well when it comes to the neutral.

The places Lucas will shine in this MU is in the punish and off stage game. Like I said, it can be quite tough to get in, but when he does, he can do some serious damage. One grab can lead to a lot of percent, and I do mean a lot of percent. If you are on a flat stage, Lucas has his foot stool infinite. I'm not sure how long it lasts on Duck Hunt compared to other characters (I will lab it soon and come back here with the results), but with Duck Hunt being as light as he is, being jab locked into a Dsmash can lead to a very early kill. Even if the stage doesn't accommodate for the infinite, Lucas can still usually chain 2-3 aerials together for some good percent.

Once we reach kill range, things get even more scary for Duck Hunt. With his weight, he will die very early to the PK Hoo Hah (around 90%). If that ship doesn't sail, then Uthrow or a Bthrow at the edge also won't take long to finish off a stock. As I understand, Duck Hunt has an extremely hard time killing, whereas Lucas is the opposite as long as he can land that grab when he needs to. The boy from nowhere gets the nod when it comes to kill power.

Then we have the off stage shenanigans. Lucas has the potential to finish Duck Hunt off very early here. That up b rises quite slowly, and Lucas has two very good spikes to work with when it comes to gimping. However, it goes both ways to an extent. Lucas's tether is very good, but he can be hit out of it if the player doesn't mix up how they recover with it. PK thunder is where the real gimping opportunities come in. If a Lucas tries to use it while too close to the stage, it isn't tough to go off and hit him away (or spike him) due to how slow it is. The other option would be to charge PK thunder from far away, and then fly a long distance to the ledge. Although I think this is the safer option, he can be very easily knocked out of it (I have been spiked out of it multiple times). Even if you mess up and it hits you, it won't kill from across the stage until around 170-180%. To summarize, both characters can do work on each other off stage, but Lucas can do a bit more with greater ease.


Like I said, I give it 50:50 overall. Lucas can kill extremely early, and live for a while since Duck Hunt has a hard time closing out stocks, but this is balanced out by the fact that he has a hard time breaking through Duck Hunt's superior neutral in order to get those early kills.


Edit: Tested the infinite on Duck Hunt. It works until about 50%, but a charged Dsmash won't kill from this lock, unless you are right at the very edge of the stage. PK Hoo Hah kills as early as 109%. Tested in training mode.
 
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WispBae

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I'm from the Lucas boards, here to give my input.

Overall, I think this match up is 50:50. In the neutral, I think that Duck Hunt wins fairly solidly. Lucas has a reflector in the form of his Fsmash, but it's not enough to deal with the brick wall of projectiles that Duck Hunt can put up. It's not impossible to deal with, of course, but it is not easy. Duck Hunt can control the pace of the match fairly well when it comes to the neutral.

The places Lucas will shine in this MU is in the punish and off stage game. Like I said, it can be quite tough to get in, but when he does, he can do some serious damage. One grab can lead to a lot of percent, and I do mean a lot of percent. If you are on a flat stage, Lucas has his foot stool infinite. I'm not sure how long it lasts on Duck Hunt compared to other characters (I will lab it soon and come back here with the results), but with Duck Hunt being as light as he is, being jab locked into a Dsmash can lead to a very early kill. Even if the stage doesn't accommodate for the infinite, Lucas can still usually chain 2-3 aerials together for some good percent.

Once we reach kill range, things get even more scary for Duck Hunt. With his weight, he will die very early to the PK Hoo Hah (around 90%). If that ship doesn't sail, then Uthrow or a Bthrow at the edge also won't take long to finish off a stock. As I understand, Duck Hunt has an extremely hard time killing, whereas Lucas is the opposite as long as he can land that grab when he needs to. The boy from nowhere gets the nod when it comes to kill power.

Then we have the off stage shenanigans. Lucas has the potential to finish Duck Hunt off very early here. That up b rises quite slowly, and Lucas has two very good spikes to work with when it comes to gimping. However, it goes both ways to an extent. Lucas's tether is very good, but he can be hit out of it if the player doesn't mix up how they recover with it. PK thunder is where the real gimping opportunities come in. If a Lucas tries to use it while too close to the stage, it isn't tough to go off and hit him away (or spike him) due to how slow it is. The other option would be to charge PK thunder from far away, and then fly a long distance to the ledge. Although I think this is the safer option, he can be very easily knocked out of it (I have been spiked out of it multiple times). Even if you mess up and it hits you, it won't kill from across the stage until around 170-180%. To summarize, both characters can do work on each other off stage, but Lucas can do a bit more with greater ease.


Like I said, I give it 50:50 overall. Lucas can kill extremely early, and live for a while since Duck Hunt has a hard time closing out stocks, but this is balanced out by the fact that he has a hard time breaking through Duck Hunt's superior neutral in order to get those early kills.


Edit: Tested the infinite on Duck Hunt. It works until about 50%, but a charged Dsmash won't kill from this lock, unless you are right at the very edge of the stage. PK Hoo Hah kills as early as 109%. Tested in training mode.
Would you mind breaking down Lucas' neutral game for us? I mentioned it was short hop PK Fires and Rope Snake pokes, since a good Lucas in our area does it with good results, but it is a rare MU (a decent amount of Lucas but not many Doggies).
 

Login_Sinker

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To be honest, Lucas's neutral game is kind of meh. It's not absolute booty, but it's lacking. He has PK fire, but it doesn't reach levels of spammable comparable to Sheik's needles or Luigi's fire balls. This is because it has a fair amount of end lag, allowing someone to shield it and punish if they see it coming. Lucas is kind of like Meta Knight in the neutral. He tries to fake out opponents with his movement while looking for punish opportunities.

I guess if I had to sum it up in a sentence, I'd say his neutral is a mixture of zoning and punish game.
 
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Nu~

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I would say that Lucas has some pretty safe pokes in nuetral as well. RAR Nair, and spaced bairs/fairs are safe on shield since the shield stun patch gave electric attacks such good shield stun.

I see Lucas's nuetral game (post patch) as more of a freestyle dance. A lot of movement and mixups between zoning and spacing your normals. This keeps the opponent on their toes. You can't be linear or systematic or you'll get outclassed.

Can rope snake beat clay pidgeon and can? All I know is that rope snake beats lower tier pacman fruit, and lower tier fruit beat clay pidgeon and can. Logic would dictate that rope snake > can + pidgeon but I'm not sure.


If rope snake can beat those tools, then I would give this matchup to Lucas +1. We kill earlier and have a good way to get past your zoning. What DH has over us is the overall better nuetral game. However, since DH's advantage state sucks and ours is great, we end up getting a lot more out of winning nuetral than you do.
 
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Frobro

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Lucas player here, Just wanna say my piece and leave.

If I PK fire your can, it's my can now. Wanna kick it at me? You're gonna hold a PK Fire, and a can explosion. Your best option to reclaim it is to hit it with a projectile from a small distance, but I could just PK Fire it again.

I'll likely never be in range to get hit with clay pidgeon; if I go for a grab off bad read, you could use it, but you have better punish options. (if you clay pidgeon and I wavebounce PK Fire, 1 of 3 things will happen. 1. We are both out range. 2. They clank, and depending on your timing, PK Fire may or may not hit you too. 3. I'm pushed out of the range of Clay pidgeon and my PK Fire is low enough along the ground to go under the disc and hit you directly.

I'd have to see the range on Gunmen, but I'm sure it won't hit me if i short hop PK fire wavebounce at 3/4 max distance. Which I will be doing a lot. I'm no Doggy expert, but I don't think Doggy has an answer to PK Fire. Does he?

Offstage I'm just gonna Z-air the ledge. I don't really see anything duck hunt can do to stop me. It's a really quick movement too: tether, isntant rise, getup option. You're probably better off staying on stage and playing rock-paper-scissors with my getup option. Maybe you could knock me off rope snake with a well positioned sour N-air. But to fully edge guard me you'll need to D-air me out of PKT2, and I'm willing to bet no one could realistically do that on the few attempts they'll get.

Meanwhile my edge guard on you is gonna hurt. Lucas can eat your recovery up. Stuff like dropzone N-air - Double Jump - D-air, Runoff B-air, ledge-trump - wait for regrab - d-smash, even timing a charged D-smash at the ledge will be as easy as Falcon's and Rosalina's.

Then there's closing out stocks. Lucas can struggle with that if D-throw U-air stops connecting. U-throw won't kill on most nuetrals until 140ish(0%rage). And both of those require landing a grab, which won't be too easy. Due to Doggy's size, even landing the z-air d-smash will be hard. Though, I imagine most lucas kills will come early from d-smash at the ledge. What is doggy's defense for a lucas standing at the ledge waiting?

This is mostly hypothetical and should be taken with a grain of salt. I'd like to play a DH and we can see if my theories hold up. Just drop a NNID!
 

Splooshi Splashy

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Before I begin, I simply just want to say that the all-brown Duo with the gray-head-feathered Duck is the closest we get to being Boney, and Lucas has a green shirt with Boney's face on it. Combine the two and... *Squees while raving about how we're thee Boney, and that today, we're going to successfully betray our owner Lucas, even though he has one of the most tragic, heart-wrenching stories out of everyone that's playable in Sm4sh, which also makes him very mo~e in the way that the lead heroines in Key's visual novel adaptations (ex. Kanon, Air, Clannad, Angel Beats, etc) become very mo~e when their tragic backstories, troubling presents, and uncertain futures start showing up...*

Alright, now that I got my squees out...

*Cue "INFINITE - Let's Get It On" aka the Extended Version of the Character Select Theme from SF3:3S*

"Welcome to the WORLD of Street Mutha 3! Prepare for adventure!"


Custom Loadouts

I've once claimed during the Ness MU that, aside from Neutral 2 and Side 1 (I would've said Side 3 was the most likely, but I still can't imagine too many Nesses being willing to give up Side 1 for that), repping the Loadout that would make him most similar to Lucas would be the way to go against us. Today, we have thee Lucas up on the witness stand, whose default Loadout would basically be what I'd pick against Boney if I were Ness. Thus, I'm with Wispy in the sense that, of the 2 Mother boys, I find Lucas to be the more dangerous of the 2 to confront as Boney, IF we try to treat him like Ness and patiently wait for his PK Fires & Thunders to be blocked off with our arsenal before going in, a strategy that won't be too effective against Lucas, whose entire arsenal has what it takes to break through our own, whether it's (Air) Rope Snake, PK Burst/Whoosh Fire, PK Din's Freeze, or PK Pierce Thunder 1 & 2.

As much as I don't want to admit this, I'm afraid I have a hard fact to state out loud here: When Customs are On, the ball is very much in our court, because while Boney has a full deck at his disposal, Lucas and the other DLC Cast Members will always be stuck with 1111 until further notice. Does that suck for him and the rest of the DLC Cast Members? Yes. Would I like to see Lucas have a full-blown Custom Loadout someday, along with the other DLC Cast Members? Yes. Will this explain why this is likely going to be a shorter post than usual today? Yes.

If our owner really wants to fight us when we have access to a Deck that's tailor-picked specifically for maximizing our ability to fight him, then he must be fully prepared for what that entails for him, as well as possibly eager to fight us at our best form.

As a reference, here's what I've mentioned during the Custom Ness MU, who I've generally regarded as Default Lucas:

Ness: 2122 or 2322 or 2123 or 2323
Most likely: 2123

Rising PK Flash gives Ness a disjointed anti-air option that ignores our arsenal. It's his most usable of the Neutral B moves, due to its speed. Ness's PK Freeze is NOT Lucas's PK Freeze, so it'll not likely be of use here.

Side 3 is Lucas's PK Fire, which creates a burst of fire that goes beyond your arsenal, and if you're nearby when Side 3 collides with them, you're getting roasted.

Lasting PK Thunder is Lucas's PK Thunder that lets him pierce our entire arsenal with PKT1. It survives our PKT1 gimp attempts, making edgeguarding him harder.

Odds of PK Magnet absorbing our exploding Cans is not too high, so he'll want to switch it out with 1 of 2 Down B moves. PK Vacuum is the most usable of the 3 Down B moves, due to it being an actual attack that can set up for some of his other more powerful attacks.

Forward PK Magnet is Lucas's PK Magnet that gives him an extra upclose attack while still letting him absorb our exploding Cans for health. For being such a versatile option, Down 3 might be his preferred Down B for this MU.

It's almost as if Lucas, the Betrayer of Boney, was built to handle us more than Ness was.... O.o


Against all 3, DH will likely run 3123 or 1123.

Zigzag Can is easier to juggle MM with, due to his weight, and Peach, due to her being in the air often. Ness is small enough for this to be hard. It can still block off much of all their arsenal.

Duck Jump Snag is our Wakeup DP that may not help us against MM's DAir, but it'll help us escape him (and Peach & Ness as well), should he somehow get in on us. It'll still function relatively well against Peach & Ness's edgeguards. This will help us escape PK Fires as well.

Mega Gunmen will be big stop signs for the majority of MM's weaponry, Peach's Turnips & Bombers, and Ness's Fires & Thunders. It'll still get pierced by Metal Blade, Leaf/Skull/Plant Barriers, Tornado Holds, Shadow Blades, all 3 Toads (easiest being Grumpy) and PKT2.



Ness: 0 with defensive styles, -1 with rushdown styles (his payoffs upclose can exceed yours)
I've once said that Lucas's PK Freeze is not Ness's version of it, and I mean it; Lucas's version of PK Freeze is far more usable than even Ness's Neutral 2, for 1. it travels quite far horizontally (especially if you short-hop before using it, which lets him fully charge up Neutral B), 2. its cooldown is much shorter than you would expect it to be, and 3. the blue energy itself canNOT be stopped by any part of our arsenal. If you're in position to dodge it or block it, do so, especially dodging it, though doing so won't be as easy if we're in the middle of recovering when he fires it up. At high enough percents with enough charge, it CAN KO us, but around 100%, it may not necessarily KO us if we're at ground level or lower at most stages, though it will do plenty of damage by itself, as well as whatever followups Lucas lands while we're "FROZEN TODAY!" </Suburban Commando ref>. If you get hit by this (which is quite possible if he times it well enough, such as when you're trying to land after using all your jumps, including while recovering), spin the control stick if you're off-stage, or mash X/B/A/R buttons if you're on-stage (Look here for more details on proper mashing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwfXtDiQA24).
It may be overall faster than any of Ness's Neutral B moves, but he's still open, so if we're close by when he starts it up, it might be our chance to get in on him.

The other specials have been well covered by everyone else here thus far, so I'll probably bring them up in regards to how our deck functions in relation to them.

Much like Ness, we'll likely want 3123 or 3133. As unusual as this may sound, I'd want to run 3133 here instead of 3123.
*GASPS!*

DJS is... not AS necessary here as it would be against Ness, because of how Lucas's PK Fire functions in comparison to Ness's (i.e. Lucas won't try to start a living campfire on you like Ness would).

Up 3, Super Duck Jump can be used to not only reach the ledge quickly from below, but we can use Up 3's wind to blow back Lucas during the PKT1 portion of his Up B to make him potentially misposition the Thunder Ball badly enough to send him flying into the Blast Zones. To successfully do this, we'll need to be somewhat close to him, and we'll also need to be on the same horizontal plane as him. 'Course, the chance to do this to Lucas won't come as often as it would against Ness, due to both his horizontal air floatiness & his Rope Snake helping him not need to resort to using Up B too often.
If there are any platforms above us, we can use this to retreat upwards to them.
(Where was this tech during the Ness MU?)

"Getting roasted by Ness's version of PK Fire."

*Groans*

Mega Gunmen can legitimately protect us from Lucas's PK Fire (& by extension Ness's Side 3), because the distance between you and Mega, as well as the size of Mega itself, are great enough, that if you're caught putting up Mega while Lucas is using Side B, the Fire's forward whoosh upon hitting Mega will NOT extend far forward enough to hit you, even if you don't put up your shield. Just make sure you're not standing directly in front of your Guardian while it's busy taking the PK Fire for you. However, PK Freeze, Rope Snake, PKT1, PKT2, and every other move he has, will all pierce through Mega. At least Mega can take plenty of hits from his arsenal before either going down or actually getting to shoot back.

Zigzag Can might be harder to land on him than many others, due to this small size, but he's floaty enough where, if you DO catch him, B-Mashing can work well enough at keeping him. While it can block off PK Fire, you best put up your defense mechanisms if you're near it yourself. It'll also lose to the same set of moves that beats Mega.


Ratios: W/Out Customs: +1 for Lucas, -1 for DH

W/ Customs: 0 Even for the both of us. We get 31x3, while he gets nothing new.
 

Joshua Flynn

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I'm no Doggy expert, but I don't think Doggy has an answer to PK Fire. Does he?
The only way for DHD to best PK fire is with correct frisbee spacing - done right frisbee will rise over the small PK fire projectile during it's launch cycle and plant itself in the face of the target, but DHD has to be sure he isn't hit by the PK fire projectile in the process and because there's two types of frisbee (with the lower rising one versus speedier distance one), the slower variant will fluff. It's a very fine arc and a smart lucas won't sit in that zone.

Gunman can block but you need to couple it with a backwards roll dodge because PK fire has AoE, and it will cap the gunman before his shot (unless the gunman is fast firing IE sheriff and is deployed early enough).

This will offer a minor insight:


This particular Lucas is pretty terrible and he's not the best I've seen (a good Lucas will destroy with constant aerial attacks). Note, once Lucas gets his shield on point in this match-up my approach options are heavily nullified and I get KO'd.

At the very start you'll see the 'frisbee to face' spacing and the usage of cans to keep him grounded whenever he goes on aerial attacks, whilst keeping enough distance rope snake can't interfere. His early punch out KO at about 110% with only a few moves (compared to my combo slog up to 170%+ with a forward read) shows his danger potential - and that's with a terrible Lucas.
 
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Frobro

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The only way for DHD to best PK fire is with correct frisbee spacing - done right frisbee will rise over the small PK fire projectile during it's launch cycle and plant itself in the face of the target, but DHD has to be sure he isn't hit by the PK fire projectile in the process and because there's two types of frisbee (with the lower rising one versus speedier distance one), the slower variant will fluff. It's a very fine arc and a smart lucas won't sit in that zone.
You were not kidding, that lucas was horrible. Not a single wave bounce PK Fire. But you may be right, clay pidgeon goes much further than I thought. Can you trigger its multi-hit when you're in hitstun?

That lucas tried approaching a lot, which he's not good at. Its even harder to approach a zoner like Doggy. He wasted a whole stock trying to do something stupid. But he lived to 170...you guys don't have a kill throw? At that perfent? Jury is still out on who has the bette4 edge guard. Hitting lucas put of PKT2 isn't to hard but it has to be with a D-air. And maybe doggy can do something to avoid d-smash at the ledge. But we did watch z-air get beat by clay pidegon...
 

Joshua Flynn

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But he lived to 170...you guys don't have a kill throw? At that perfent?
Most characters won't KO with a throw by DHD until 200% (the earliest character is Jigglypuff at a 'mere' 166% with an upthrow... to put this in context, the can KOs Jiggles at about 144%). You can see the percentage requirements for KOing with upthrow as tested in training mode here. Lucas requires 196% to upthrow to fatality (don't even bother with side throws unless you're near the edge of the stage).

To get an idea of how bad this is, here's an example of a recent fight with Ness:

Excuse the dodgy cuts (that's Nintendo's highlight reel for you), but you can easily see Ness survives up to 203% (the player is doing proper DI here) compared to my self inflicted 27%, so it's not really an issue of competence... DHD is so underpowered and Nintendo such a huge ... that they still won't fix this issue.

If DHD had the same power output as any of the major contenders the DHD players would be pulling the tournaments.
 

WispBae

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Alright, onto Roy, the boy! Also, while MU scores are important, do not forget to also discuss HOW to fight MU's. I know I've personally gotten caught up on scores, when this thread is meant to score AND find ways to deal with characters, so I'll try my best to do both.

"Gotta have some hot stuff, Gotta have some love tonight!"<3

:4duckhunt:VS:4feroy:
PROS! (For Doggy!)

  • Lack of projectiles from Roy means he always has to approach.
  • Heavy weight on Roy means predictable and easy to cover recoveries.
  • Disjointed trades usually are in the favor of Doggy.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • Roy's KO power is ridiculous.
  • Better OOS options (Up-B).
  • Good at keeping pressure on foes.
Haven't fought many Roys, so I'll need a bit of help with this one. However, I'll note what I can.

On Doggy's side, camping isn't really a thing against Roy in the sense of "stay in place and let him try the obstacle course", since he is very fast. You should be playing defensive here, but by using cans as traps and gunmen for offense and to force him to stop. The can will also slow him down, which is the name of the game. Simply put, Roy is ridiculous with his power. He might as well be wielding a shish-kebab of DK, Bowser and Dedede with how strong a sweet spot on his sword is. Slowing him down on stage, and keeping him off stage is vital, like in little mac MU. With him having a lackluster double jump and being a fast faller however, he flails offstage. Can pressure is easier on him since he has to go low to avoid huge punishes. Sour spots fairs can gimp him, similar to lil mac, but I wouldn't risk it since his Up-B is very strong as well. If you feel confident in your stage teching though, go for it!

As for the disjointed trades, Roy's sweetspot his on the hilt/bottom of his blade, as opposed to the tip. Doggy's sweetspot is on the tip of the duck's beak. Where Roy's neutral game is usually meant to use sour spots as safe options, he really has to commit when he wants to go in. Keeping him at a range means most trades we do with Fairs and Pivot tilts will be in our favor, since we'll be taking around 3~5%, and he'll be taking around 9~10%.

On Roy's side, is of course his power. Anyone that can kill at 60% is scary, especially to a Doggy. Bad shield pressure is fine on him as well, since he can punish very quickly and easily. OOS Up-B has armor and can KO. We all know Doggy crumbles under pressure, and that's what Roy does: pressure. It's a mental game of not making a bad call, as one Sweet spot F-Smash can end things.

I'd give this MU a -1 for Doggy. Roy is annoying but his heavy weight and small double jump means he really has to commit to a ton of approaches, and can't really do the whole "poking" things sword users like to do easily. Keeping a cool head is the name of the game though. It's always important to stay calm, but very few characters can punish mistakes as hard as Roy. Keep him off the stage with throws and projectiles. If the situation is neutral, cans as traps, gunmen to poke, and I would avoid clay pigeons unless it's completely safe.
 
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I'm a Roy main, so I'll try and input what I can.

I mostly agree with Wispy. this matchup hasn't been discussed on the Roy matchup thread yet (I believe) but -1 seems appropriate. Roy has some difficulties getting in because of no projectile and no reflector, but his air speed and dash speed make getting in a lot easier than you'd think. Roys who also know the matchup can do cheeky things to duck hunt's projectiles (like countering a gunmen).

Unfortunately for duck hunt, once he's in, Roy can smack you around from 0 to 40% easily. d-throw and f-throw combo into jab and nairs regularly, and jab can even link into a fair or a Blazer (up+B). Blazer is particularly dangerous for duck hunt because grounded blazers have super armor on startup, meaning if you f-smash and Roy blazers, it'll just eat through your f-smash and (possibly) kill you off the top. Roys will also do pivot F-tilts and pivot F-smashes, the latter of which will almost always set up an edgeguard scenario, if it doesn't kill you outright.

Roy also has no shortage of kill moves.
Fsmash - kills the entire cast by around 80% if sweetspotted, for duck hunt you can die at around 50% if near the ledge.
Usmash - kills floaty/midweights around 100-120%
Utilt - kills most characters by 110% except Dedede and Bowser and other super heavies.
Ftilt - sweetspotted it'll kill at around 120%, also has little endlag making it hard to punish.
Bair - I've seen sourspotted bairs will kill at 105% off stage. You have been warned.
Fair - doesn't kill often, it'll usually just send you far off enough to not recover. For duck hunt though, this probably isn't an issue.
Dair - slow (hitbox isn't out until frame 16 I think), but god help you if you get hit. Really good Roys can also ken combo fair into dair.
Flare Blade - kills off the side of the stage at around 120-130% uncharged. It also has pretty much zero endlag.
Blazer - kills off the top at around 100-130%, super armor on startup if grounded.
Counter - based on whatever attack it counters, but can kill pretty early.

I'm not too knowledgeable about duck hunt, but that's mainly what you have to deal with. Roy's main downsides are short range and predictable recovery, but it's kind of hard to gimp Roy when using blazer because it has about 8 hitboxes around the sword of seals. To be honest though, I can see a well placed can ruining Roy's stock if he tries to blazer, because if Roy loses any precious altitude when recovering it can mean death. It's also important to know that many of Roy's moves are unsafe. Fsmash can be dash grabbed, Usmash can be punished liberally, fair and nair can be punished if mis-spaced. I'd provide more if I could but there are literally no duck hunts where I play.

Hope this helps.
 

Joshua Flynn

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Messages
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Roy, ah...

If you're ever facing a choice between Marth or Roy, pick Marth. Roy's main advantage here is his sword does a lot of exploding and thus can AoE both recovery and projectiles. For some reason, Roy has a kill capacity at about 50-60% on DHD, especially if he catches you with his exploding sword even *partially* charged. Nintendo does not consider this overpowered (in much earlier versions, Little Mac's KO move killed at 50%), bizarrely, and decided to nerf Marth. Go figure.

Roy is very much one of those 'one mistake and you're dead', type characters, especially if the Roy is competent, and does stabby-stabby interception edge guarding, or even just exploding sword ledge guarding (which with it's AoE can kill you before you even ledge snap). In a fight against a competent Roy I came out brutalised at ~150% on my last stock, only beaten by my knowledge of can-to-bair KO which he did not see coming - essentially it took intricate knowledge of a two-stage KO move (needs both to be at roughly the same percent) and surprise to kill this turd burgular.


Roy falls into the 'roll dodge and stay fast' category, similar tactics DHD would use for Marth. Essentially your opening move will be frisbee but from then on you'll be doing a lot of dodging waiting for suitable openings to insert projectiles, and what projectile you use depends heavily on the particular Roy playstyle you're fighting.

You'll be classically fighting one of two types:
1) Jumpy jumpy stab kind (AKA 'jump spammers')
2) Quick quick stab stab quick quick (AKA 'ground users')

1) 'Jump spammers'
More competent ones will be playing the short hop spam game. As a DHD your first few moments will be gauging his timing: when does he jump? Does he jump to dodge? When does he land? How far can he reach without having a landing option handy?

Then you time can deployment to suppress the air (ideally so it intersects his 'when does he jump' stage). REALLY competent Roy's will actually stab the can mid-air and turn it into a game of deflection: at which stage you need to be highly precise and target Roy's feet or even surprise forward air his exposure time by baiting his stab attack with a 'missed' can and then hitting him in the face duck-style.

This quickly becomes a 'who blinks first' competition, except more like 'who gets trapped in end lag first'. As you guessed, it's most likely to be DHD because Nintendo thinks that what DHD really needs is more end lag.

With the introduction of dodges that don't actually dodge for DHD (thanks Nintendo!), the air dodge and roll dodge game against Roy's AoE sword explosion becomes quickly dangerous, and even if you are mid roll-dodge when it occurs, the explosion *will* 'catch'. Bummer, right?

So DHD has to bait jump and pull back, use mind tricks and hope that their air dodge actually dodges that fatal off-ledge air stab. DHD can use 'can-to-save' trick here but it will quickly increase your percent into KO levels so it's a (excuse the pun) double edged sword.

2) Ground users

You can breathe a sigh of relief, although not much before Roy stabs your face off. As a ground user he's vulnerable to standard frisbee interrupt tactics and his approach options are thankfully predictable. Be warned as some ground users might become surprise jump spammers as they become more desperate mid-game and so you'll have to switch out the frisbee for a can.

In this case, standard roll dodge into light jabs, roll dodge into grabs, bait roll backs, bait air dodges etc will work (essentially, it's very much like fighting Marth except the sword explodes and is far more likely to kill you in cheap ways).


Dealing with Roy?

As mentioned, Roy falls into the 'roll dodge and stay fast category' (same box as Captain Falcon, Sonic, etc). Essentially you are doing a reactions match where your main goal will be to predict Roy's incoming attacks, dodge them and use the very narrow opening (good luck: his end lag is ridiculously short) to make your reply and then turning it into whatever desperate combo you can get. My personal approach is usually a roll dodge into a frisbee, rapid jab or grab: most other moves are too slow to catch Roy.

Frisbees will get old, fast, especially against a Roy who keeps their shielding on point, but they might offer an opening whilst he's shielding - not to grab (Roy moves way too fast for that), but to feign a grab and catch out the expected dodge/run from Roy. You will be spending 1/4th of the match gauging Roy's reactions to everything (namely: cans, frisbees, grabs, light jab roll dodges) so you can anticipate his counters and catch him out. Sound hard? It is.

Take a heart though: if you can insert a frisbee, because of his heavy weight, Roy is pretty easy to ground combo (frisbee->dash, frisbee->grab, frisbee->gunman etc), and it is possible to regain any losses just by keeping the projectile combo game going.

KO'ing Roy you have a number of options:
1) Force him outside his recovery range with an f-air (watch for sword replies: either bait or hit during hitstun).
2) Can his feet (prevents sword deflection) and keep juggling until can wins out or he recovers.
3) Down air his up-B (stupidly tricky and if you're at high percents, suicidal).
4) Forward smash his roll on or landing with a good read (he doesn't have to touch the stage: f-smash has some air breathing room and it's range can beat out his sword, but if he's got exploding sword on landing you're probably going to suffer badly).
5) Up-air his ledge missed up-B (more likely with can suppression on his recovery).
6) Surprise back-air from roll dodge exit (requires he be at about 150% roughly).

If he somehow survives up until 200%, don't forget upthrow becomes deadly at this range (be sure to pummel before upwards toss to improve chances of KO).

(DHD I'd have to give -2 compared to Roy. The only reason it's so large is because Nintendo destroyed DHD's roll dodging protection frames. Prior to that change, Roy would be easily manageable, on par with Marth.)
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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*Cue "Suzuki Mitsuto - The Coliseum ~Fearsome Warriors~" from the Final Fantasy 13-3 OST (aka Lightning Returns)*

Thanks Wispy for pointing out the need to mention how we canines can handle our MUs, since that is one of the biggest reasons why readers drop by here: To find answers for dealing with whatever MU ails them. I sincerely wish we can cover teams here as well, but I still don't have the hands-on experience or match vid references that feature DH & the MUs in question to talk about actual team battles with legal stages & friendly fire on, only FG Teams.

This may not be THEE thread to share this exact pic, but considering who I am (Roy Koopa main in Sm4sh, Roy main in Melee/Project M), this is just too good to pass up. X3 Shoutouts to Spray-POKA from dA for this. =)

Were he like this during SMB3 & beyond, he probably would've put up a better fight against the Mario Bros, the Yellow & Blue Toads, and even Nabbit, than perhaps even :4ludwig:....
Also, Week 1 of the DLC Hype Train departure in a nutshell. XP
And yes, if my Duo gets blown up, both are who I'd switch to, with the Koopa being my 1st counterpick, followed by the Swordsman if there's a round 3 in a best of 5 set.
It may be from late June, but it's a pretty thorough & extensive comparison of all 3 swordwielders, which for some of us, will be quite helpful in telling them apart from each other.



This MIGHT be a case for denying FE Roy the option to take you to Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64 if you're without Customs....
As a Melee Roy main who has been repping him quite often here in Sm4sh, this got me very hype. As a DH main, this sent chills down my spine. Oh, and to support what one of the commentators noted, our crouch and especially our DTilt can help us go under Roy's SH NAirs and his other aerials, and possibly some of his ground attacks as well. As for hitting the Can, I'll get to that again soon.


*Cue "dai - Black knight" from the Umineko no Naku Koro ni Visual Novel OST: musicbox BLUE*

As the above match shows, Roy's SH NAir is one of his best approaching & damaging aerials that can bully our Cans, Gunmen, and even Clays if it's not shot-up in time. Our FAir's range can compete with it, as well as Default/Zigzag Can if they're coming from below him, rather than directly ahead of him (unless we're right next to him for the "Default Canikaze" trick), and our Gunmen (especially Down 2) if it's not OHKO'd prior to their shots coming out. Our NAir as well can handle it, if we're above him when he starts his NAir.

Let's state this upfront: FE Roy, unlike Roy Koopa, is a FAST runner who also sails through the air just as fast, and unlike the Koopa, he doesn't need Side B Jump Cancels to achieve that movement speed. He outruns even Marthcina, so like Falcon & Fox, expect him to close the distance within seconds if no part of our arsenal stands in his way, which is exactly where he wants to be. Thankfully, he merely walks as fast as we do, which is nowhere as fast as Marthcina's (who are thee fastest walkers out of everyone in Sm4sh).

Their disjointed swords also allow them to cleave through our entire arsenal (even non-shot-up Clays, though Gunmen's gunshots will generally beat out their attempts to aggressively clank with it) with seemingly any A or B button attack. I personally would use Side B to achieve that, as unreliable as it may be against default Cans (perhaps more reliable against Zigzag?? For sure against default Can, I'd rather Jab or DTilt it if I'm on the ground) & Clays, for its 4 part series moves him towards us while having active disjointed hitboxes sticking out, and it can seamlessly transition from being started in the air to continuing on the ground without skipping a beat.


As Institutionalized noted, Roy's Neutral B has less cooldown than you would expect it to have (like Lucas's Neutral B), and its swingdown arc covers more vertical range than Marthcina's (which I personally miss from their Melee counterparts, since I LOVED anti-airing folks with Neutral B, even while short-hopping). It's also a more reliable answer to default Cans than Side B as a whole.

One of my personal key moves for cleaving through our arsenal, as well as percent-building (outside of grab follow-ups), is their Side B Dancing Blade/Double-Edge Dance series, which functions similarly to Fei Long/Yang's Rekka Ken/Mantis Slash series, except it's a 4 parter that changes depending on the directional input held before pressing B during any part of the series. As an aside, any character that is capable of such an attack style will likely be the kind of character I'll rep in a traditional 2D fighter (ex. Zangoose in Mugen, Nanase in SF:EX2+, Karin in SFA3/the upcoming SFV), alongside grapplers, due to the general certainty that the Rekka string is the absolute strongest meter-less attack that I'll want to combo into to maximize the damage on any punishes I land.

For pure damage-building, Side B xx Forward B (if there was a Down B for this part, I would've said so here) xx Down B xx Down B is the string of choice, since its damage output is generally 20-ish% total if you land the whole string. At 100+%, its knockback is the lowest of the 3 strings, solidifying its purpose as the damage-building string, which he'll likely want to use if he gets in on you at very low percents, so as to keep his other attacks fresh for when he's looking to KO you later on. Jab, DTilt, NAir, and FThrow/BThrow/DThrow may also be used for this purpose as well, given that like Ganondorf, Ike, and even Roy Koopa, his FTilt, UTilt, and his other aerials will eventually KO us, as Institutionalized has shown us.

For scoring KOs, the Side B xx Up B xx Up B xx Up B string is for when he catches you close to the top Blast Zone (ex. top platform of DL64).
The All Forward B string has the absolute highest KO power out of the 3 strings, which is heightened further when used close to the horizontal Blast Zones (ex. walkoffs at Castle Siege & Delfino). This is really apparent with Marthcina's Side 3 (Heavy Blade), whose 4th Forward Slash can KO us at the center of the stage as early as 55% without any DI. If Marth tips that, it's 50% without DI.

I've got a confession to make here: I go in on Marthcina, because our aerials can compete with their range, and our ground attacks can outspeed theirs, and if we're close to them (especially Marth), we can compete with their payoffs.

I don't go in on FE Roy as much as I do Marthcina--
(But you LOVE rushing down folks, even those two! Why not Roy too!?)


.... Which I've once griped about in the Online Section of our boards, back during the 1st week of the DLC Hype Train departure (alongside Lucas):
I'll definitely say this: Lucas's PK Fire is harder to block off safely in comparison to Ness's, because when it collides with other projectiles like Gunmen, Clays, and Mechakoopas, there's a gush (?) of fire that is blown forward a bit, making the idea of sticking out a Gunman or Mechakoopa upclose a bad idea, for said gush of fire actually hits you, allowing Lucas an opening for him to get in. I've seen folks (including myself as Boney-- er, Duck Hunt) get KO'd by this in Sudden Death as well.

As for a gripe of my own, trying to aggressively rushdown :4feroy: as :4duckhunt: or other characters who probably shouldn't be aggressively rushing him down, because 1. I do half of Roy's work in approaching me for him, and 2. the payoff he gets for every hit he lands upclose at his sweetspot is shockingly high, to the point where his DPS at that range can exceed the dog's. I WANT to put on a hype show for my opponents by aggressively rushing them down, but Roy not Koopa in particular is... a rather intimidating swordsman to try to do that against... Maybe I should bring out :4roy: against that swordsman more often....
I'm probably not one of thee defensive DH mains that should be answering the above question, since I play an aggressive rushdown style, but there are a few MUs where I'm strongly inclined to defensively run away and lame out my opponent, due to the sheer payoffs that the dog can get from doing so. Said few MUs would be :4bowser:, :4dedede:, :4dk:, :4charizard:, and probably now :4feroy:. They CAN be rushed down, especially once you land a full Clay shoot-up and go in for FAir juggles.

I'll be honest, if I were to be in a legit singles or team tournament match as DH, and if my opponent runs one of those above characters without customs, I most likely will lame you out like I'm UMVC3 Morrigan/Doom/Vergil. DK & Zard with customs on, however, will likely get to see my aggro rushdown, due to their enhanced arsenal piercing abilities. :>

In FG Anywhere, even those 5 will get treated to my aggro rushdown show, as much of a terrible idea it is for me to do so.
(As an aside, the aggro rushdown part on the Custom DK MU didn't exactly pan out the way I expected it to... :ohwell: For sure, Customzard will be more likely to make good on the claim I made back then. ;>)

As another aside, if I really want to fight him at that specific range and stand a chance doing so, especially if I lose Round 1 AND Customs are OFF, then that's when I'll bring out Roy Koopa. There's an actual tactical reason for the character switch beyond generating hype with the whole "It's the Battle of the Roys! 8D" factor, since the Koopa's 4 frame Jab & especially DTilt lets him comfortably go boxing against him at that close range, plus Mechakoopas mess with his ground game, and my aerials can also compete with his aerials. With Customs, 3111 or 3121 would be my decks of choice as Roy Koopa, since Air Cannon can safely shove the swordsman while we're off-stage, and Meteor Ejection would potentially protect me against over-eager edgeguards (including Counter?).


Back to DH, I can at least say this: Ideally, we want Roythcina out of our faces for as long as possible, given their need to approach us.
However, if you want, or are forced to, wrestle with him upclose (and given his overall movement speed, plus his disjointed Sword of Seals, you might actually have to), make like Marth & keep him spaced around the tip of our duck's beak to maximize the gains on our FAir & BAir. If you're so close to him that he's able to consistently sweetspot his blade at the center (the Sword of Seals itself actually shows where that spot is), you're too close to him for comfort, and you've got to find a way to back off. Unlike Roy Koopa with his Jab & DTilt, and unless we have Customs on, we don't have the DPS necessary to keep up with his trades at that close of a range. If super upclose, Jab is one of your absolute fastest options at 4 frames, followed by DTilt's 6 frames, and 7 frame FTilt & DSmash & USmash. Do note that our Tilts are outranged by, though slightly faster than, Roythcina's Tilts. Our grab is 8 frames, but its range is shorter than our Jab, but longer than our USmash when he's on the ground.

As stated above, if you can land a full shot-up Clay, you'll get to potentially follow that up with an aerial, most likely FAir. Roythcina's runs may lower their profiles, but not enough to dodge default Clays.

As a dog brought to our attention recently elsewhere, with the recent shield stun increase, many of Roythcina's attacks have become safer on shield than ever before, such as Neutral B & their many A buttons, especially when sweetspotted, much like many of Ryu's A buttons. Thus, frame traps like FTilt (sweetspotted & blocked) --> Jab or DTilt become possible. As an aggressive rushdown canine myself, I take this as a reason to directly challenge Roy's A buttons with our own right then & there (a habit forged from other 2D fighters that rewarded courageous confrontations of thrown-out attacks with Clashes (Guilty Gear), trades, and even outprioritization (ex. Akuma's Raging Demon < Dan's version of it in the Marvel VS series)), rather than shield first & attempt to punish later.

His recovery distance, thankfully for us, is on the level of Default Doctor Mario and Default Mac in terms of recovery, meaning that it's rather poor, especially once you hit them back after they've spent their 2nd jump. Blazer has less vertical & more horizontal range than Marthcina's Dolphin Slash, which makes him less eager to physically go deep off-stage for the edgeguard against us (I suppose that's what Flare Blade at the ledge is for? :p). However, actively trying to challenge Blazer head-on with your own body withOUT your arsenal coming along is a dangerous idea, for not only does it have quite the priority over your own melee attacks, but it's a genuine KO move that's capable of stage spiking you as well.


*Cue "Chaos" from the FF13-3 (Lightning Returns) OST*
Custom Loadouts:

Roy, like the other DLC Cast Members, will always be stuck with 1111 until further notice.

Meanwhile, 3122 or 3132 would be our most likely Loadouts. I'm not entirely sure which of the Up B moves to take with us here. While Up 1 is an option, it leaves us vulnerable to Roy's edgeguard attempts, as well as any moment where he successfully swooces right in, past our whole arsenal. Thus, I'm at least certain that either Up 2 or Up 3 would be what I'd want here.

I'd personally pick 3122 for most stages, and 3132 for stages with platforms that are positioned high enough for our Up 3 to reach the peak of (ex. Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64). 1122 and 1132 would also be possible options. Perhaps Rising Clay might be an option worth looking at here as well, given his overall high mobility, or will we want to keep Side 1's payoffs?
NOW we can more comfortably fight him upclose!


Roy is both heavier than Marthcina & a fast-faller, which makes juggling him with Zigzag easier than against others. Its anti-air properties will hinder Roy's advances, provided he doesn't properly use the Sword of Seals to swat it away from him. Its horizontal traveling speed will keep up with Roy's overall high movement speed, which can greatly pressure him into making unsafe decisions that we can capitalize on.

Quick Draw Aces will let us play footsies with him better, considering how often he'll be occupying our breathing space, as well as how much range QDA offers for how fast it comes out (farther & faster than a fully-charged FSmash). This will also help us take back that space as well, setting us up for some followups upon hit-confirming it. There's nothing Roythcina have that Mega will protect us from, so I wouldn't advise running Down 3 here.

A toss-up between DJS & SDJ exists here. With DJS, we gain a valuable OoS option for pushing Roy away from us. However, the increased shield stun starting with 1.1.1 has made OoS attacks less potent than they used to be. It does provide an active hitbox to protect our recovery.... except said hitbox now allows Roythcina to Counter it while we're trying to get to the ledge. Blazer outranges DJS as an attack, though DJS starts up & hits much sooner than Blazer does.

With SDJ, we gain a blowback tool against his x1.35 multiplier powered Counter, should he try to use it during his recovery. The distance that SDJ can send him away is enough to generally gimp him, given his poor recovery range, though if Roy reads this & he's close enough, he can burn it with Blazer. It's start-up is the slowest of the 3 Up B moves (making it a risky option to use against a Roy that has successfully swooced right past our defenses), but its vertical ascent speed exceeds that of Up 2's, which can help throw off Flare Blade edgeguard attempts.


Stage Picks: Low ceiling stages (Halberd, Delfino, Dream Land 64, Town & City) are undesirable for us, considering his great KO power. If we wind up at those stages, hope we can bring Zigzag with us. Castle Siege is as fishy of a place as Delfino is, due to their walk-offs boosting Double-Edge Dance's horizontal carries (Smashville's single platform boosts this too!), and said walk-off room at CS ruins our arsenal too.

Battlefield & Miiverse & especially DL64 don't seem to be very desirable stages for us either, if the above match vid is anything to go by. If you're sent here, hopefully you can bring 3132 or 3122 with you.

Lylat Cruise seems to be a good place to go, despite its platforms, since he has trouble recovering there in comparison to us.

Walled Omegas, for as terrible as that stage is on our landing abilities, does present some trouble for Roy in regards to navigating our arsenal. We get to wall-jump, while Roythcina can't.


Ratios: WithOUT Customs: +1 Roy's favor minimum, -1 DH's unfavor minimum

WITH Customs: 0 Even for both sides (Roy's stuck with 1111, while we get 31x2)
 
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EnGarde

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Hello from the Roy boards. :) I feel like the most important element tested in this MU is who's neutral game is better. If you're able to wall Roy out, you'll win. While we do have kill power, remember that us landing that sweetspot fsmash isn't something we'll do unless you make a mistake, or approach recklessly. Most of our other options kill after 100-120%, and if we can't get in sweetspot hits, you can live to pretty high percents as well, as our sourspot hits have meh KB.

Of note, nair pops pretty much all projectiles (pidgeon yes, but not the explody bits, iirc), generally returns can to sender, and tipped nair is safe on shield. If it hits, it can set up a nairplane, jab (which sets more stuff up), or grab. It comes down to a timing prediction game: if you've got better timing, you'll win. Also, properly using nair as Roy is to short hop, fast fall it (to hit characters low to the ground). If we don't fast fall the nair, it's punishable. Roy's dash is low to the ground, depending on when you release clay pidgeon (in the middle of the arc), Roy can actually dash under it without being hit, though I think the little explody bits on pidgeon can still hit. Just a bit of interesting side data lol.

Gimping Roy...can be easier said than done, if the Roy is crafty. Unless you hit with a move that has a low KB angle, Roy can generally drift back to recovery range without using his DJ, and can access most of his desireable recovery heights. Therefore, recovery is often a matter of knowing when to time the air dodge, or using an early up+b (angled, of course, so we can still autosnap the ledge), to intercept you before your hitbox comes out (recovery mixups). Don't be too afraid of our up+b offstage; the KB is greatly reduced. It's only a kill move when used on the ground. If we do mistime the airdodge offstage and get hit, unless we're high percent and you sweetspot, we usually still have our dj and you have to invest the rest of your time getting back to the ledge while we recover as well, meaning getting back to the ledge at least. But yeah, we can usually only use 1 option (air dodge, early up+b, 1 uair/nair/fair, high counter) to guard our recovery because we're a fast-faller, and our recovery is not great, so if you snatch our jump, it's usually gg.

Also,

It may be from late June, but it's a pretty thorough & extensive comparison of all 3 swordwielders, which for some of us, will be quite helpful in telling them apart from each other.
This isn't an accurate representation of the differences between the 3 characters. Here is a link to the post describing just how much they get wrong. Do not trust. :-/
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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So Roythcina's run can lower their profile enough to go under default Clays that aren't shot-up, just like Little Mac. Interesting. ;o 'Course, I wouldn't expect that to happen very often, since Clays are usually shot-up within moments after being sent out, but it's nice to know it's possible. *Suddenly goes and tests for whether or not any of them can run under Thoron like what Little Mac can do, only to find out that no, their running profiles are too high for them to do so* A running Mac, none of them are, which from DH's view, is a good thing, since that means they can't just recklessly run towards us & expect to swooce their way in without having to deal with our arsenal with their blades & defensive options first, which could buy DH some time to brace himself for the possible up-close clashes that might happen, given their overall movement speed.

Thanks for sharing more accurate info on the differences between the 3, EnGarde. My intention was to provide an overview of them, so to see you provide more exact information regarding that is very helpful for all of us. In fact, I've actually learned details I didn't even know about the 3 until now, such as how Marth can land tippers DURING Dancing Blade (okay, now I actually want to try to KO folks with the Up & Side Slash Enders >:3), Roy's Up B being quite disrespectable, and Lucina being able to tipper DSmash for a different trajectory. :O

I probably should visit the Roythcina boards more often, considering my Melee & Brawl history with them (not so much my Project M history, since I don't actually play PM very often...), but then I remember that my Sm4sh mains are Jr, DH, and Ryu, which is where my focus around here usually ends up going towards.... Perhaps at some point I can contribute intel regarding the Marth VS Ryu MU, since that Thread's been up for a while (Anti-Focus Attack moves for Roythcina are grabs, NAir, Jab string (Marthcina only), Side 1/3 as a whole, Counters, Roy's USmash & Blazer, and potentially Dashing Assault or Storm Thrust)?? I probably should get around to the Wii Fit Trainer MU over there as well, since I see WFT as a floaty Kuradoberi Jam from Guilty Gear with 2 projectiles and 2 ways to heal, 1 of which doubles as a univerally limited time version of Jam's Down Down EX/K/S/HS Stance....
 

EnGarde

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Thanks for sharing more accurate info on the differences between the 3, EnGarde. My intention was to provide an overview of them, so to see you provide more exact information regarding that is very helpful for all of us. In fact, I've actually learned details I didn't even know about the 3 until now, such as how Marth can land tippers DURING Dancing Blade (okay, now I actually want to try to KO folks with the Up & Side Slash Enders >:3), Roy's Up B being quite disrespectable, and Lucina being able to tipper DSmash for a different trajectory. :O
No worries, this vid comes up sometimes when dicussion focuses on any of the three, and it seems so legit, which is what makes it kinda insidious lol.
 

WispBae

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Alright, new week. Whatcha guys feeling?

Here's whose left, keep in mind we're doing 2 MU's a week now to talk more about strategy instead of only MU scores::4charizard::4link::4lucario::4samus::4marth::4wiifit::4zelda::4palutena::4lucina::4robinm:/:4robinf::4shulk::4drmario::4duckhunt::4falco::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4mewtwo::4ryu:

Of these, I'd love to talk about Lucario and Samus. Lucario because his Aura shenanigans has become stronger with the recent patch, as well as being fairly popular, and Samus because Florida bias (WHY ARE THERE SO MANY SAMUS MAINS?!)
 

TheWorstMuppet

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I vote fer Lucario and Samus too. I started playing a bit of Lucario a few weeks ago and I'm curious to see what the match-up is like. I imagine it's pretty bad for duck hunt. Also my flatmate plays Samus a lot and I often find it hard to even land on stage. Heeeeelp.
 

Perris6

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I vote for Lucario and Samus as well. Lucario should be a problem for doggy and I have a ton of experience against Samus believe it or not lol
 

Splooshi Splashy

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*Cue Courthouse Lobby ~ Prelude to the Future from the Dual Destinies OST*

As much as I would like to vote for Ryu again, I'm actually pretty glad that we're not poised for focusing on him just yet, despite having gained as much safety on shields & the ability to break them as much as Lucario did, since I'm still working on a huge post for him that would compare his previous incarnations to his Sm4sh self. I can at least happily report that his fireball game is NOWHERE as good here as it was in Super Turbo, especially against us, since we have what it takes to come off as the likes of ST Old Sagat, TVC:UAS Saki/Volnutt/Doronjo (especially her, since her style is surprisingly reminiscent of our own, for her minions are as multi-purpose as our arsenal, including their ability to invade campsites, and her lameout powers are boosted with Assists like Viewtiful Joe's V-Bombs and Roll's Puddles), and UMVC3 M.O.D.O.K. (especially when paired with Assists like Dante's Jam Session and Rocket Raccoon's Log Trap), especially since he doesn't a Super Meter with which to hold out for the fireball-war-winning Shinkuu Hadouken that would've forced as much of a Paradigm Shift as ST/3S Chun-Li would with a full bar of meter.

My 1st vote will go to Lucario, the living embodiment of Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3's X-Factor (I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons why Apologyman mains him. 83), who I've once tried to analyze through the lens of Jr (http://smashboards.com/threads/lucario-matchup-discussion-vs-bowser-jr.405686/), only to get blown up by Blanc, who I'd like to give a positive shout-out to for setting the record straight back then. Since we're looking poised for discussing him this week (including possibly myself, given my linked post, which I hope can be salvaged for us), I do wonder if 1. Lucario's recent Down 2 buff will mean anything for us in the Customs side of the MU, and more intriguingly, 2. Croi will step up and lead the charge on that MU, given his history with repping him thus far (certainly more than me, I'll admit), much like how I led the charge on some of the MUs we've covered before (ex. Jr, G&W, and Custom Villager & DK, who people seriously still might believe to be among the most notorious figures in the Customs Meta, despite ChrisGer's Up 2 getting a range nerf this patch).

My 2nd vote will be going to Samus as well, who's gotten buffs on her NAir, FAir, and her Up 1. I've been known for saying that, "I'd switch to Jr if I get blown up with DH," for quite a few MUs, but Samus, alongside Mega Man & Peach, is one of those MUs where I'd actually consciously rep DH instead of Jr, who gets lamed out by Hidden Missiles & Charge Shots, despite having Mechas & Cannonballs, especially if Customs are off (with them on, I'm repping 1323 or 1313. I'd say Air Cannon instead of Neutral 1, if it weren't for her arsenal). Speaking of Customs, with the recent buff to her Neutral 3, Melee Charge Shot, I DO wonder if we'll be seeing that instead of Neutral 1 or even Neutral 2.
 

Joshua Flynn

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Like a contrarian, I vote for the most commonly used Link and Falco.

Mainly because those will be seen in both tournament and for glory, and they're often used as a counter-pick to DHD (Falco due to reflector, Link due to his projectile shield and projectile spam game), and all of their abilities are active (sans Link's shield) and thus can be affected or controlled in some way. Given they're pretty common, I think it's best to be prepared for regular characters first as you're more likely to encounter them.

Link is decidedly dangerous, and Falcos who overrely on reflector (IE use it as an attack) are very aggrevating to overcome (repeat knockback, anyone?), and it'd be nice if we could pool experiences to overcome these decidedly deadly foes. I've got a few tricks but they're becoming stale as the metagame changes.
 

WispBae

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Alright! Let's feel the power of Aura!

Straight outta Sinnoh

:4duckhunt:VS:4lucario:

PROS! (For Doggy!)
  • Projectiles serve as a nice shield against Aura Spheres.
  • Camps out Lucario very well, and disjoints work in Doggy's favor.
  • Aura mechanics are a double edged sword, meaning Doggy has the potential to close stocks faster.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • Aura still works better for Lucario, so mistakes can be hard punished.
  • Silly recovery makes it hard to cover, and risky to challenge.
  • Momentum shifting and maneuverability of Lucario makes him scary to face up close.
(lol dog vs dog)

Lucario has always been interesting to me. Playing him is like going to a casino and putting all your chips on black. I've fought a few Lucarios but I will need a bit of help with this one since I'll admit my knowledge is lacking in this MU.

On Doggy's side, projectiles shut down a huge chunk of Lucario's neutral of using aura spheres, since most of Doggy's projectiles clank with it. Gunmen can shield the hit, clay pigeons will stop smaller spheres (but not the bigger one) and trick shot will also stop the spheres (though the can may hit you back in the face). Doggy's disjointed move set is also very nice against Lucario as he can just poke away at aura dog and keep a safe distance between them.

On Lucario's side, he has rage and aura on his side. Getting KO's is never a problem, but getting the read for it can be challenging. Being unpredictable is especially important here, since he can punish so hard on one mistake. He also beats Doggy in ledgeguarding with the aura charge shield locking, as well as being able to recover very well. It's also quite risky to challenge his recovery, with it having that deceptive hit box on it. I personally would avoid trying to swat him out of it unless you are sure you can do it fast enough and are ready to tech off the stage. Trying to bait him to land on stage will work better in the higher percents, since he has around 18 million frames of landing lag if he doe land on stage. Up close, if Lucario does get it, he also wins out, as his Dair, B-reverse aura sphere and a strong counter give him many options to be slippery and hard to predict.

I honestly don't know how to judge this MU, so I'll wait a bit to give it a score. Doggy should definitely camp behind a projectile for most of the time against Lucario, giving yourself a layer between an aura sphere and yourself is definitely important. You can out space him well, and run away if you can, since he does really have to work on hard reads to get KO's. Just don't get predictable, he can end stocks surprisingly quick.
 

Joshua Flynn

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Lucario is dangerous, but not for any skill reason: the passive boost to his launching power when he gets damaged works against DHD badly - because most DHDs take up to 200% to kill any character, and Lucario with his weight is no exception.

Lucario seems to be the favoured counter-pick for DHD, and for good reason: he has a projectile (which means he can neutralise incoming projectiles), and anything he survives increases his KO power against DHD who is already very launchable. One I consider part of the 'OP' characters (along with Roy and Ike).

Lucario's moveset gets worse: he has a side-B whose range extends the more damage he takes, and is pretty deadly KO wise, which means at about 150% not only does he punch harder, some of his moves reach further (as if Nintendo couldn't slap on more overpowered movesets - irked view towards Mac's KO punch which hits behind him...).

As a result, the deck is already stacked against disadvantaged DHD: not only can DHD be launched easily as it is, any damage DHD contributes to Lucario contributes to DHD's own demise, both in damage, launching power and range. Worse still, Lucario recovery move is like trying to hit sonic the hedgehog doing warp speed, which means spikes, down airs, can intercepts, frisbees or anything the heck else you try to kill him with have little to no effect.


Because Lucario's advantage movesets are passive (IE the advantages are bestowed regardless of player competency), as opposed to active (EG Marth's sword tip, Mac's KO punch, etc), there's actually little advice to give in dealing with Lucario other than the very captain obvious of 'KO him early!'. Not much help, right?

As a result, DHD's should reign in damage dealing about the 120% mark (150% is when Lucario becomes deadly), and shift near entire focus to smash KOs and forcing him into blast zones. The reason being that Lucario can be killed at 120% (it's a bit harder) but anything added to that will just make you more likely to die rather than Lucario - especially one who abuses DI and weight to advantage.

I had the very unique experience of where me and a player swapped roles (I became Lucario and he became DHD) so we could understand what it's like in each other's shoes.

I can say this: Lucario is very slow, and a close range DHD who uses close quarters moves (light jabs, dash attacks, on-stage down airs, neutral airs, forward/back, grabs) does better than you'd expect compared to projectiles, but that assumes your Lucario hasn't got much mastery of shield dynamics, dodging and timing.

As a result, DHD's tactics are opportunistic: waiting for an opening to insert a smash move at about 120% (it's recommended you start smashing about 110% - 10% earlier, because you'll likely do additional damage before you get the move in).

As for Lucario recovery, all DHD can do is use can like an inaccurate flak cannon approximating it where he might go (roughly near the edge is a good spot, but if he's higher than that, slightly above him) and be quick enough to intercept Lucario's landing by roughly holding mid-space of stage. If you're very lucky, a Lucario will overshoot the ledge and land next to you - ripe for a forward smash KO. But you will need to read fast and read far: the f-smash has to be initiated before he lands because by the time he lands his shield and dodge options become quickly available, however you can delay the initiation slightly to extend your reach and align your timing. If he's right next to you, down smash A is recommended.

Besides, that, all one can suggest is to keep a heavy focus on defense. Keep the gap closed so he can't charge shot (as that will KO non-edge landings), but don't enter Lucario's mid-range (roughly same as DHD's mid-range) as it's his most deadly.

+1 to Lucario, with the rating depending mainly on Lucario competency. Incompetent = +1, competent = +2.
 
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Empire~

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From what I've seen of the inferior dog on streams and such, DHD can have a hard time actually getting the kill. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard of too many reliable kill setups you guys have. Obviously, this is pretty key in the matchup and works in Lucario's favour.
 

WispBae

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From what I've seen of the inferior dog on streams and such, DHD can have a hard time actually getting the kill. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard of too many reliable kill setups you guys have. Obviously, this is pretty key in the matchup and works in Lucario's favour.
Yeah, ending stocks in a big issue. Racking up damage and playing keep away is easy, so Doggy main kinda play this war of attrition, poking away until the opponent makes a mistake. So for as long as Doggy can stall, a mistake means a stock for Doggo, and a mistake on Lucario means time to set-up more or attempt a punish (most doggies will go for up-snash).

The lack of easy kill set-ups is annoying, though Doggy can frane trap well and force the opponent into bad positions, where he can go for his best KO options (up-smash, u-air, Bair, nair). The lack of easy KO options is definitely a plus for emo dog, but his strong neutral game and trap game help compensate it a bit.

Oh, and Anubis is definitely the inferior dog. Our Doggy's cuteness > Your mutt's. =P

Croi Croi , lil help? I'd give doggy a slight disadvantage at my first analysis, but I'd love to hear more from Lucario mains. Lucky for us, Croi mains both!
 

Croi

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First of all, both dogs are adorable for their own reasons. You can't compare apples to grapes, they're both great.

Second, this whole post is pretty wrong.

Lucario at no Aura has no way to combat Duck Hunt outside of Double Team. Everything blocks or stops Aura Sphere; Force Palm has no range; and Lucario himself has no damage output. An intimidating string of six to eight hits will do less than thirty percent. Throw out a Can, then a gunman, then charge in, and he has no cover or means of escape. In fact, if a Duck Hunt has reasonable control over his traps, Lucario has no means of approaching at all.

Lucario with Aura isn't as scary as you might think, because Lucario needs to be close to death in order for it to be a thing. Because Duck Hunt's damage output is so much more than Lucario's, odds are good that Lucario will be at high percent before he's done much to you. That said, of course, he's still a threat at high Aura. I've lost more than a few matches because I couldn't kill Lucario with DHD and then I got fsmashed or something.

Gunman and Can will stop Aura Sphere no matter what, and actually, the disc can stop it too until Lucario's at really high Aura. It's his best spacing move by far and it gets shunted by all three of DHD's own projectiles. Force Palm, however, will pass straight through everything, but its range is so piddly until Lucario's near death that every single one of your projectiles will outspace it until Lucario is at about 70%. Even Sombrero With A Shotgun will outspace it.

But. Force Palm is laggy as hell. If Lucario is at crazy high Aura and starts spamming it in an effort to pierce your wall, throw out a Can or something and run in and challenge it yourself. If he misses, he's wide open for just about anything you want.

If you're too happy with the projectiles, Lucario might start spamming Double Team to try and get through them all. Since the Duck Hunt Main is an elusive breed, odds are pretty good that Lucario won't know the timing on Gunman, so with any luck, Orange Guy will fire too fast and catch them off guard, and Lanky Guy will fire too slow and snipe them long after the trigger window has ended but before Lucario can shield. You can also start baiting it if he uses it too often, and even if it does trigger off a projectile, Double Team doesn't pierce shields, so that's an easy block. Maybe even a punish if Lucario points his attack the wrong way and/or it ends close enough to you.

ExtremeSpeed is difficult to deal with, for sure, so don't try too hard. Can is a constant hitbox that will trigger if Lucario crosses it at any time, but other than that, don't try to intercept it. If you reverse a Can with a bair or whatever and have it hover around the ledge, that cuts off one of Lucario's entry points and it'll make it a little easier to bully him. Never ever assume, if Lucario recovers high, that he'll get the hard landing lag: if Lucario uses ExtremeSpeed and runs it parallel to the ground (which is easy peasy) or if he ExtremeSpeed's straight into the ground, he'll have only fifteen or so frames of landing lag. No Lucario main will be caught with their heavy landing.



All that said, it is true that Duck Hunt has an issue killing, and that plays into Lucario's favour. Lucario has very precise frame data and hitboxes, but he makes up for it with very formidable attack strength in the late stock. He becomes incredibly strong at 70%, much earlier than 120%, and while his own projectiles still won't have the oomph or the range to beat yours, all it'll take is a few grabs, a few bairs, and before you know it you got fsmashed at 60% and you died first. My best recommendation is to try and kill him early with an fsmash, or maybe take him to a stage with a low ceiling and kill him with uair before he can kill you with ASC > usmash.

This MU is even, I think. Usually I try to judge my Lucario MU ratios by assuming that Lucario is always at zero, because if Lucario relies on his Aura to win, he's a ****ty player. But in this case, while Duck Hunt totally shuts Lucario down in the neutral game - Duck Hunt has better range; better frames; better projectiles (at zero) - the fact that Dog can't kill very well, against a character that gets stronger the longer he survives, jades this MU just too much. Otherwise, it's actually solidly in Duck Hunt's favour.

The two Lucario mains I play with DHD the most are @MythTrainerInfinity and @Eeveecario. Their input should be pretty insightful.
 
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smbmaster99MFGG

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Just going to add, Force Palm and Aura Sphere are Luc's only attacks that get bigger the higher his damage is. From Flynn's post it sounded as though he thought all of Lucario's attacks reach farther, but nah just these two =P Also if a Lucario recovers low frequently, use DH's d-air. Yeah it's risky and you'll need to be prepared to tech off the stage if you get hit by ES's hitbox, but if it connects it's a guaranteed kill and Luc's back to 0% and no Aurage.
 

Splooshi Splashy

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Match Vid References:
(2015/6/6, making this significantly pre-patch) SC2 - Megalex (Duck Hunt Duo, Mega Man) vs. AtmanB (Lucario, Mario) - Losers Finals (1st Round only) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-GSlNRFPCQ

YMMV Section (FG 1v1 lies here. Proceed with caution.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut1h3kewr8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KqVO1ulzUc
END of YMMV Section (How legit tournament footage aren't so readily find-able for this MU is beyond me....)


Before I get started, I would like to mentally prepare ourselves for just what kind of character we're dealing with, plus this would be good advice for just about any battle:
Imagine an Aura Dog player as Justin Wong the Cyclops player in the above clip, who makes clutch play after clutch play, even when all the odds seem utterly stacked against him. It is from the deepest depths of despair that one can unearth the smallest glimmer of hope. This is what fighting against Lucario (and G&W as well) can sometimes feel like at virtually any percent, especially when he's at 100+%, even when he's on his last stock. This effect, I imagine, would be heightened further in team battles.

As a personal aside, THIS incredibly hype moment, to this day, strongly inspires me to ALWAYS hang in there, no matter how bleak my state in a match can be. For so long as there's still time on the clock, for so long as I still have at least 1 stock, and for so long as there's any chance of winning at all (Even if the 1 comes after one of the 0's after the . in 0.000....%, an amount that Umineko no Naku Koro ni's Frederica Bernkastel, the Witch of Miracles, THRIVES off of), I will persevere for as long as I can, doing everything possible to stick around. ONLY when I see the giant words "TIME" or "GAME" fill the screen, indicating the absolute END of a match, and thus the END of all important controller activity, will I FINALLY throw in the towel on that match. Seeing ANYONE purposefully SD out of sheer despair ticks me off GREATLY, because I find myself thinking, "If ONLY they had a scene like this EVO2k7 Moment running through their minds..."

Surely anyone who seriously reps Lucario or anyone else who gains much from Rage would have to believe in the above 2 paragraphs. They, more than perhaps the majority of the cast, would have quite the list of reasons to be filled to the brim with determination, since Aura Dog in particular benefits more from persistence than seemingly anyone else in Sm4sh.


*Cue just about any boss fight song from Undertale*
So, with all that in mind, let us now truly begin:

One of the biggest gains that Aura Dog's gotten from the 1.1.1/2 patch is this:
.... Which, thankfully for us, CAN be dealt with.


Custom Loadouts:


Lucario MIGHT run one of these decks: 33xx or 23xx or 32xx or 22xx or 31xx or 21xx.
Up 1 or Up 3 would be likely, with Up 1 being the most likely. I'd imagine Down 3 would be the most preferred Down Special, considering how faulty Down 1 can be sometimes, but since Down 2 got a buff this patch, I'm suspecting that folks might be wanting to try it out more often.

While many would probably stick with Up 1 & Down 1, I'd personally run 3332 as Customcario against Custom DH.

Neutral 2, Ensnaring Aura Sphere, is probably more useful in teams than in a 1v1 setting, due to its slow charge time, its long start-up & recovery, and its very slow travel time (I personally LOVE projectiles that have this property, especially durable ones like ChrisGer's Pushy Lloid, MegaYoshi's Leaf Shield, and Guilty Gear Bridget's Ore to Kill Machine, due to how much cover fire, damage potential, and even okizeme that those moves can provide). While it DOES pierce through all of DH's arsenal, and it DOES have the highest KO power out of the 3 Neutral B moves, DH has enough mobility to get around it, while Lucario himself doesn't have enough mobility to really take advantage of the wonderful cover fire it provides for his approaches. This IS a very powerful move to throw out if DH is caught recovering, due to the sheer length of time that it can control the amount of space it does.

Neutral 3, Piercing Aura Sphere, as its name would tell us, pierces through our entire arsenal, even when tapped/uncharged, making it a more usable projectile for dealing with DH's arsenal than Neutral 1. Its range is the entirety of FD if fully charged, and slightly over halfway if mashed/uncharged, yet these ranges don't seem to increase TOO much with Aura, even at 100+%. What DOES seem to increase with Aura is its vertical range, as indicated by the enlargened Sphere. It charges quicker than the other Neutral B moves, it's still use-able for the at-ledge shield breaking tech displayed above (the effectiveness of it I've not yet tested in comparison to default & Ensnaring), and its damage & KO power is the lowest of the 3, even at 100+%, though its launching arc upon hitting is sharply horizontal (close to straight ahead, which might give it some use at walk-offs & Smashville's 1 platform).

Side 3, Long-Distance Force Palm, again, as its name would indicate, has the longest range & active hitbox time on the projectile portion of the move than both Side 1 & 2 do, even at 0%, where its range seems to be 1/4 of FD. At 50-70%, it's 1/3 of FD, and at 100+%, it's almost 1/2 of FD. This part of the attack has lower KO power, deals less damage, and has a longer start-up (this and Side 2 don't grab until frame 17, unlike Side 1 at frame 9!) and possibly even endlag than Side 1. However, its real damage & KO power lies in the Grab part of this move, for it deals more damage & sends the opponent on a more straight-ahead angle (think Lucina's tippered DSmash), which helps it KO folks even sooner than Side 1's Grab does, even with less Aura. How much so? If both him and DH are at 70+%, there's no DI on DH's part, and if DH is near the edges of the stage when he gets grabbed by this, DH will be KO'd.

Up 3, Extreme Speed Attack, has the highest KO power out of the 3 Up B moves, though its recovery range is the shortest. How short? Longer than you would think. Personally, in terms of the range, even at 100+%, I've not had trouble actually reaching the ledge or the stage with it. If that reduced recovery range is enough of a concern, then run Up 3 at a walled Omega or thee Duck Hunt stage, where the walls allow him to use his wall-cling, which basically makes his ability to return to the stage great enough to be guaranteed, barring the Duo's edgeguarding attempts. It also allows him to hang out off-stage for a LONG while, which will definitely help out much when it comes to edgeguarding the Hunting Duo. Its recovery time upon landing on the stage is generally shorter than Up 1, making it safer to use with more angles for recovering onto the stage than with both Up 1 & 2. He can also shark/retreat to the top platforms at Battlefield/Miiverse/Dream Land 64 with this.

Down 2, Glancing Counter, will ALWAYS come out, since it's not actually a Counter like the Double Teams are. Its KO power, admittantly, is the lowest of the 3 (it doesn't KO outright as early as Down 1 does, nor does it set the opponent up for a geniune KO move like Down 3 does), though the new 65 degree hitbox angle did help boost its KO power. Its safety in confronting DH's arsenal is the best of the 3, not only due to this patch's 7 frame reduction on its endlag, but also its invincibility frames being long enough to let him harmlessly pass through Gunshots from our Gunmen, and more shockingly, Clays, even when they're shot-up, IF his timing's spot-on. GC can also challenge Cans, and pass through quite a number of DH's melee attacks as well (Rapid Jab string can beat it, though). Sadly for Aura Dog, and happily for us, the extra shield stun it does and the 7 frame endlag reduction on it still do not make this move safe enough on block, for DH can still OoS USmash or Up 2 him for it if he's close enough. It also doesn't gain attack range with Aura, though it DOES gain KO power with it, much like every other attack he has. Wow, and to think that this recently buffed move that used to be looked down upon by many would turn out to be thee move that I'd actually want to use here....

Down 3, Stunning Double Team, is the absolute fastest of the 3 Counters (it's more likely to actually hit DH than Down 1 will, if his own body is within range of it!), and its Paralysis generally grants him a free uncharged Smash attack if it connects on the ground at high enough percents, or a free aerial (hopefully BAir) if it connects in the air. Its range is shorter than Double Team, and DH will probably not be as eager to attack super-close to him like what Falcon or Ryu would do, limiting the gains it would've had in this MU, especially since it's even worse for dealing with DH's arsenal than Down 1 is (Down 3 goes NOWHERE if it's successfully triggered!). 'Course, against a more aggressive in-your-face kind of character with short melee ranges, this would probably be picked over Down 1.


Duck Hunt will likely want 3121 or 3122. I WOULD have said Down 3, but Lucario's Neutral 2 & 3 pierce through it, alongside ALL of his Side B moves, which makes using Down 3 for the purpose of blocking off his arsenal a poor idea. However, it still complements Zigzag Can, so it MIGHT be an option, despite this. Oh, and if Lucario DOES run Neutral 1 against us, I actually WOULD recommend bringing Mega Gunmen along, since it will provide the tallest protection from Aura Spheres, plus it will be able to tank quite a number of hits from him at low percents before potentially firing back.

I personally would rep 3122 as Custom DH against 3332 Customcario.

Zigzag, on top of being a fantastic damage builder, will be one of our best vertical KO tools as well, since a staled Default Can DOES have trouble securing the KO sometimes. This can also hound him in the air, due to Aura Dog being rather floaty and a bit of a slow horizontal air traveller. Bring it with you to Delfino or Halberd or DL64 or even T&C if possible.

DJS is not AS potent of an OoS move as it used to be, but it's still handy for getting us out of trouble and pushing him back for decent damage, given Aura Dog's sluggish attack speed. This, alongside USmash, can handle punishing Customcario's Down 2 on block. However, DJS will trigger Lucario's Down 1 and especially Down 3, and considering how little I'm wanting to recommend Up 3 for this fight, a case for running Up 1 MIGHT exist here....

SDJ CAN blowback (Stunning) Double Teams, but unlike against Mac & Roy, this tactic is simply not going to gimp Aura Dog, due to how great his recovery distance is, even with Up 3, and especially if he clings onto the wall. Aura Dog's horizontal movement and attack speed aren't the greatest, so it'll push him back while allowing us to retreat if we can get this move out, especially if we're below the topmost platform in Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64. Personally, I wouldn't advise bringing this move to this fight.

QDA will let us have the most usably quick-firing gunshots out of the 3, which is nice to have against his Neutral 2/3 & Side B in general, since those moves will pierce through them anyways. We may lose a tool for setting up grabs and messing with (Stunning) DT timings, but I would take having usable Gunshots that can push him back from beyond our fully charged FSmash range to be worth having.


Stage Picks: Any stage that allows Lucario to survive longer would likely not be stages we want to take him to.

Considering how important it is to KO him ASAP, stages with either low ceilings and/or short sides would probably be desirable for us, which could make Halberd, Delfino, Dream Land 64, and possibly Town & City desirable. Castle Siege & Smashville might be worthwhile options to this end, though CS would probably be more of a counterpick against us than against him, due to the statues in the walk-off room that Lucario would have no problems with, aside from Neutral 1, so avoid going to CS if you can. To be honest, we're not exactly known for cheesy-early Side Blast Zone KOs like what Custom Jr, Customzard, & Custom Yoshi are known for, so our gains from Smashville and Delfino might not be as high as it is for those 3.

He also has trouble traversing through our arsenal, so FD/Omegas might be worth considering, as well as T&C for the transitions. I'm not sure if we should be taking him to walled Omegas, since he has a wall-cling, which is basically an upgrade to our wall-jumping ability that can make recovering with Up 3 more possible & easier.

Not sure about Lylat Cruise, though its platforms might help Aura Dog break through our fleet, which I don't think we want. Considering the quality of his recovery, I'm not sure if we can realistically hope for the stage itself to help us gimp his recovery.


Ratios:

WITH AND WithOUT Customs:
0 even at the start for both sides, until Lucario's at 100+% on his 1st stock.
+1 DH's favor if he can somehow finish his plate early in regards to KO-ing him (i.e. DH scores the 1st KO).
-1 Lucario's favor if he can somehow stick around long enough to make use of his X-Factor (i.e. Lucario scores the 1st KO).

Like with the Ganondorf MU, whoever scores the 1st KO can seriously determine who has the momentum going into the rest of the match. It is like in UMVC3, where success against a team with either Marvel!Phoenix or Mr. Wright in it can hinge on whether or not you can Snap in either Phoenix & 0-to-KO him/her early enough before either 5 bars are filled for Marvel!Phoenix to become Dark Phoenix upon losing all her HP, or Mr. Wright reaches Turnabout Mode after gathering 3 Good pieces of Evidence during Investigation Mode and then landing Bridge to the Turnabout during Trial Mode.
 

Joshua Flynn

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Messages
164
Second, this whole post is pretty wrong.
I disagree, as another poster noted certain attacks do gain range and force palm covers ground pretty well. If it's not based on experience how do I know the attacks ranges extend reach?

Lucario at no Aura has no way to combat Duck Hunt outside of Double Team. Everything blocks or stops Aura Sphere; Force Palm has no range; and Lucario himself has no damage output. An intimidating string of six to eight hits will do less than thirty percent. Throw out a Can, then a gunman, then charge in, and he has no cover or means of escape. In fact, if a Duck Hunt has reasonable control over his traps, Lucario has no means of approaching at all.
You're assuming I said 'you can't get damage on a 0% Lucario'. I never said that, I said 'at 150%, Lucario becomes dangerous'. I'm not assuming a 0% damage Lucario "at no aura", which is an unrealistic expectation unless one is a pacifist DHD, but one that has been sufficiently injured in a fight. Sure, you'll override early aura spheres but if games were decided by the early outcomes we'd be playing sudden death, but they're not, so it isn't.

We get early combos, great. But we have no real killing moves, so how well we combo is meaningless unless we get a nice finish, and the problem with Lucario is, the better we damage him, the more punch he has in his hits.

Even you verify my statement his projectile can override frisbee:

Gunman and Can will stop Aura Sphere no matter what, and actually, the disc can stop it too until Lucario's at really high Aura.
Gunman is only useful if you're not next to gunman (otherwise on large shots it extends beyond gunman and often KOs), and can deflects often with a 'return to sender' bent. It's actually far safer to shield than get surprised by a frisbee or gunman bypass at close range.

Despite calling my "whole post" pretty wrong, you actually echo another point I made:

If you reverse a Can with a bair or whatever and have it hover around the ledge, that cuts off one of Lucario's entry points
Unless of course Lucario goes high, in which case the can should be set higher. Not all Lucarios are surprised by the 'can at the edge' trick. Some with enough height will even projectile cover their landing (a quick shot to disrupt can).

Force Palm, however, will pass straight through everything, but its range is so piddly until Lucario's near death that every single one of your projectiles will outspace it until Lucario is at about 70%.
Any Lucario worth their salt won't allow you to space and stay all up in your grill like George Foreman. At which point trying to f-smash, d-smash, u-smash Lucario runs the risk of leaving you very vulnerable to a large sweeping force palm (any smart Lucario won't commit to it until you're in a nice end lag - which given DHD has plenty of is easy to come by).

Your only options to avoid end lag are to use quick moves, but... they're all close range... aw... shoot.

All that said, it is true that Duck Hunt has an issue killing, and that plays into Lucario's favour. Lucario has very precise frame data and hitboxes, but he makes up for it with very formidable attack strength in the late stock. He becomes incredibly strong at 70%, much earlier than 120%,
Good luck killing Lucario at 70%. I suggest 120% because it's got good odds of KOing in general in trade off to his additional power with rage. And 70% is nowhere near as bad as 150% or 200%. That couples the rage mechanics on top of the aura and then you're looking at an ugly scenario.

You've not actually highlighted a single point in my post that was supposedly wrong.
 
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Joshua Flynn

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Messages
164
Just going to add, Force Palm and Aura Sphere are Luc's only attacks that get bigger the higher his damage is. From Flynn's post it sounded as though he thought all of Lucario's attacks reach farther, but nah just these two =P
I'm generalising because I'm no Lucario specialist, so I don't know which moves extend further and which don't. All I do know is some of his attacks do increase their range as he takes damage, which is counter-intuitive as most people assume it only increases his attack damage and I found out the 'hard way'. So I'd prefer to warn them that it also increases his range.

Once force palm gets range, a Lucario with decent reactions can easily catch out a smash move even if he's not next to the opponent. Coupled with rage mechanics and assuming he pops first stock early... ugh.
 

AlmostDoug

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Another Lucario main here to tell you only Force Palm, Extremespeed and Aura Sphere get range boosts from aura.
And 120% is a very dangerous Lucario nonetheless. A percent where most smash moves will kill you at a decent percent.

No matter what your experience, us Lucario's have labbed enough to know exactly what changes with aura.
 

Joshua Flynn

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Messages
164
Another Lucario main here to tell you only Force Palm, Extremespeed and Aura Sphere get range boosts from aura.
And 120% is a very dangerous Lucario nonetheless. A percent where most smash moves will kill you at a decent percent.

No matter what your experience, us Lucario's have labbed enough to know exactly what changes with aura.
That's okay, I didn't say anywhere all moves gain range. What's with everyone ganging up on me all of a sudden?

I said, I wasn't a Lucario specialist so I don't know which moves extend range so I generalised.

Does anyone know what generalisation means?
 

AlmostDoug

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You said you didn't know which moves
I told you which moves

Also, while I wouldn't call myself experienced in the MU, Aura Sphere has hitboxes all over it, so if your Gunman has his hurt boxes all over his visual, the two should collide before anything behind the Gunman can get hit regardless of aura
Again, should
 

Croi

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You've not actually highlighted a single point in my post that was supposedly wrong.
Fine, let's go over them.

Lucario is dangerous, but not for any skill reason: the passive boost to his launching power when he gets damaged works against DHD badly - because most DHDs take up to 200% to kill any character, and Lucario with his weight is no exception.
Right off the bat, saying that Lucario is dangerous but not because the player might be skilled is a huge scrub mentality. Lucario's Aura is part of the match up, and without it, he's massively underpowered. People who complain about how "good" Lucario gets in the late stock never talk about how poorly equipped he is in the early stock. If Lucario wins against you, it's because he was better skilled than you. There's a reason he's not #1 or even top 10.

Lucario seems to be the favoured counter-pick for DHD, and for good reason: he has a projectile (which means he can neutralise incoming projectiles), and anything he survives increases his KO power against DHD who is already very launchable. One I consider part of the 'OP' characters (along with Roy and Ike).

Lucario's moveset gets worse: he has a side-B whose range extends the more damage he takes, and is pretty deadly KO wise, which means at about 150% not only does he punch harder, some of his moves reach further (as if Nintendo couldn't slap on more overpowered movesets - irked view towards Mac's KO punch which hits behind him...).
Force Palm's flame won't kill until very late in the stock. Force Palm grab is quite strong and will kill early (if Lucario is at 150%, it'll kill Duck Hunt at maybe 50%) but it's a 1 frame window (and it's late, on frame 9) and requires Lucario to be in grab range, which Duck Hunt doesn't ever have to be in if he doesn't want to.

And sure, I suppose you could look at Aura Sphere and Force Palm as neutralizing your projectiles, but it's much fairer to say the opposite, since Force Palm takes so long and Aura Sphere isn't worth anything without a bit of charge. If Lucario hits the Can with a projectile but doesn't knock it off stage, you can hide behind it and it'll absorb absolutely any other projectile, no matter how strong, without moving.

As a result, the deck is already stacked against disadvantaged DHD: not only can DHD be launched easily as it is, any damage DHD contributes to Lucario contributes to DHD's own demise, both in damage, launching power and range. Worse still, Lucario recovery move is like trying to hit sonic the hedgehog doing warp speed, which means spikes, down airs, can intercepts, frisbees or anything the heck else you try to kill him with have little to no effect.
Like I keep saying, Force Palm isn't as scary as you think because its frame data is atrocious, and Aura Sphere is stopped by anything, except the disc, when Lucario is at a high enough percentage that you shouldn't be throwing discs anyway. You've only talked about how Aura buffs his specials without talking about literally every other aspect of Lucario's moveset: Lucario's neutral game (approaches, tilts, jabs, aerials, everything but grab) is so bad no matter what percent he's at, it's hugely incorrect to say that "the deck" is stacked against Duck Hunt.

As a result, DHD's should reign in damage dealing about the 120% mark (150% is when Lucario becomes deadly), and shift near entire focus to smash KOs and forcing him into blast zones. The reason being that Lucario can be killed at 120% (it's a bit harder) but anything added to that will just make you more likely to die rather than Lucario - especially one who abuses DI and weight to advantage.
Duck Hunt's fsmash will start killing at about 100%, so if you're antsy for the kill, you can start looking for it twenty percent earlier than that. But moreover, you should never stop piling on the damage just because you're afraid of Aura. Lucario gets enormously powerful as early as 70% and you wouldn't start fishing for the kill then; why should you later? Lucario's fsmash will kill you whenever it feels like it, but it's slower than Ganondorf's. If you get hit by a kill move, it's your own fault.

I had the very unique experience of where me and a player swapped roles (I became Lucario and he became DHD) so we could understand what it's like in each other's shoes.

I can say this: Lucario is very slow, and a close range DHD who uses close quarters moves (light jabs, dash attacks, on-stage down airs, neutral airs, forward/back, grabs) does better than you'd expect compared to projectiles, but that assumes your Lucario hasn't got much mastery of shield dynamics, dodging and timing.
It's good to know that, based on this information, you, who played Lucario once against Duck Hunt, think you know more about the match up than me, who mains both and plays against other Lucario mains every other day. And that is what you are inferring, since you wrote your response challenging my own points while telling me that I didn't challenge yours.

As a result, DHD's tactics are opportunistic: waiting for an opening to insert a smash move at about 120% (it's recommended you start smashing about 110% - 10% earlier, because you'll likely do additional damage before you get the move in).
Is this not true for every match up, though? "Hit them with a hard move when you have an opening and they're in kill percent."

As for Lucario recovery, all DHD can do is use can like an inaccurate flak cannon approximating it where he might go (roughly near the edge is a good spot, but if he's higher than that, slightly above him) and be quick enough to intercept Lucario's landing by roughly holding mid-space of stage. If you're very lucky, a Lucario will overshoot the ledge and land next to you - ripe for a forward smash KO. But you will need to read fast and read far: the f-smash has to be initiated before he lands because by the time he lands his shield and dodge options become quickly available, however you can delay the initiation slightly to extend your reach and align your timing. If he's right next to you, down smash A is recommended.
I've already explained why trying to punish their landing isn't likely to work against a decent Lucario. If they recover low, a Can will make it harder for them to make it back, but remember that he can curve ExtremeSpeed, so much that he can almost do a full circle. Granted, that's really dangerous and it's not likely that Lucario will risk something that extreme, but unless your control over the Can is absolute, it's not that hard to either dodge it or for you to miss.

Putting yourself center stage while he's recovering just tells Lucario where not to go.

Let's talk about your other post.

I disagree, as another poster noted certain attacks do gain range and force palm covers ground pretty well. If it's not based on experience how do I know the attacks ranges extend reach?
Saying that Force Palm, Aura Sphere and ExtremeSpeed go farther the more Aura Lucario has is what is called a "platitude." It's common, trite information that's said as though it were wise or insightful. Everyone knows that Lucario's specials get better with his Aura, this isn't news.

You're assuming I said 'you can't get damage on a 0% Lucario'. I never said that, I said 'at 150%, Lucario becomes dangerous'. I'm not assuming a 0% damage Lucario "at no aura", which is an unrealistic expectation unless one is a pacifist DHD, but one that has been sufficiently injured in a fight. Sure, you'll override early aura spheres but if games were decided by the early outcomes we'd be playing sudden death, but they're not, so it isn't.
Okay, first of all, what I said was "Lucario becomes dangerous at 70%." Lucario at 150% is overkill: at that percent, a particularly sturdy sneeze will knock Duck Hunt into the bubble. It's as unfair to base Lucario's strength at that percent as it is to assume he'll even survive that long.

Second, I don't assume Lucario is at 0% either. I even said at the end of my post that, as much as I try to base match ups on that, it's not fair in this one because Duck Hunt has such a hard time killing. My entire post assumes that Lucario has at least some Aura.

And finally, by "overriding early Aura Spheres," I'm assuming you mean the disc. Disc will actually clank with Aura Sphere until something like 100%, which is weird for how strong Aura is at that time, but it's also highly useful, since it does at all. If you're referring to gunman or Can, or both, Aura Sphere will never ever ever ever ever beat them. Try it yourself: go to Training; put Lucario at 999% (I know Aura caps at 190% but 999% is faster), then shoot a fully charged Aura Sphere at the Can or a gunman. They'll stop the sphere entirely. If you're scared of it, putting either one down and hiding behind it is a valid strategy. It's just like what AlmostDoug said.

It's the same reason why Aura Sphere doesn't pass through, say, Nabbit.

We get early combos, great. But we have no real killing moves, so how well we combo is meaningless unless we get a nice finish, and the problem with Lucario is, the better we damage him, the more punch he has in his hits.
Lucario's frames and hitboxes (except his specials) are so piddly, no matter what percent he's at, that if you get hit by something hard, either it was a punish or it was your own fault.

Let's assume Lucario is at maximum Aura and you are at 0%. Lucario can uthrow to uair you, and that'll do maybe 30% right there, but it won't kill. He can Force Palm grab to Force Palm flame (which is a true combo at high Aura and you are at low percent), but this will not kill. He can use any smash attack, and fsmash could very well kill at 0 with some charge (assuming center stage), but they're all so laggy and precise that it's your fault for getting hit by them.

My point being, all that strength doesn't mean jack if Lucario has no guarantees himself. He has to rely on Aura Sphere (which is rejected by gunman/Can) and Force Palm (which, if he spams, leaves him predictable and wide open). His run speed is too slow to chase you and his frame data doesn't help him at all. Remember how, in Dragonball Z, Trunks found a way to get much stronger and buffer than Vegeta, but when he tried to use that against Cell, he just got opened up because he was too slow? It's the same idea here.

Even you verify my statement his projectile can override frisbee:

Gunman is only useful if you're not next to gunman (otherwise on large shots it extends beyond gunman and often KOs), and can deflects often with a 'return to sender' bent. It's actually far safer to shield than get surprised by a frisbee or gunman bypass at close range.
On the disc, I was arguing that disc neutralizes Aura Sphere until high percents, not the other way around. Granted, this is a bit confusing since we're arguing the same thing, but from "glass-half-full/empty" perspectives.

Like I said, Aura Sphere will never beat the Can or the gunman. It'll vanish the frame its first hitbox touches the gunman's hurtbox. It will never "extend" beyond him and has zero chance of hitting you at all. Same goes for Can. The only attack that will do these is Force Palm.

Aura Sphere hitting the Can will send it rocketing to the moon, sure, but it's better than getting hit by the sphere yourself. Unless, of course, it's already been hit by one of Lucario's own projectiles, in which case, it won't move at all.

Shielding a fully-charged Aura Sphere at maximum Aura is very dangerous because it's crazy good at breaking shields. And since I know you'd rather sit in your shield than protect yourself with a gunman, here comes another one, which you either have to take or risk getting your shield broken, leaving you open to a fully charged fsmash.

Any Lucario worth their salt won't allow you to space and stay all up in your grill like George Foreman. At which point trying to f-smash, d-smash, u-smash Lucario runs the risk of leaving you very vulnerable to a large sweeping force palm (any smart Lucario won't commit to it until you're in a nice end lag - which given DHD has plenty of is easy to come by).

Your only options to avoid end lag are to use quick moves, but... they're all close range... aw... shoot.
"Space" and "stay all up in your grill" are two different things. You make it sound like Duck Hunt is completely immobilized by Lucario.

Of course using a smash attack in neutral is risky as hell, don't be obtuse. If you're close enough to use a smash attack, but it whiffs, no "smart" Lucario will use the flame of Force Palm as a punish: they'll either go for Force Palm grab or a smash attack. The flame is for spacing, and since Duck Hunt gave that up for the attack, Lucario will punish with something much more severe than an intentionally whiffed Force Palm.

You could play the long-distance game with Lucario, but if you want to get the kill with less laggy moves, you're going to have to get your hands dirty. This is not a unique problem to Duck Hunt. Mario isn't about to kill Lucario with fireballs, or Sheik with needles, or Diddy with bananas. Even Villager needs to get in close if he wants the slingshots to kill. Duck Hunt's alternative is to hope that the Can will eventually get the kill, which, if you don't do anything else but throw Cans, won't work because they're easy as hell to shield or Double Team. You have to risk approaching. Suck it up.

You've not actually highlighted a single point in my post that was supposedly wrong.
Feel free to feel like I'm "ganging up on you" because I had to spend an hour of my time painstakingly telling you why you're wrong.
 
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AlmostDoug

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AlmostDoug
Given how positive Croi was for DH's odds, I feel I should call attention back to this:
All that said, it is true that Duck Hunt has an issue killing, and that plays into Lucario's favour. Lucario has very precise frame data and hitboxes, but he makes up for it with very formidable attack strength in the late stock. He becomes incredibly strong at 70%, much earlier than 120%, and while his own projectiles still won't have the oomph or the range to beat yours, all it'll take is a few grabs, a few bairs, and before you know it you got fsmashed at 60% and you died first. My best recommendation is to try and kill him early with an fsmash, or maybe take him to a stage with a low ceiling and kill him with uair before he can kill you with ASC > usmash.

This MU is even, I think. Usually I try to judge my Lucario MU ratios by assuming that Lucario is always at zero, because if Lucario relies on his Aura to win, he's a ****ty player. But in this case, while Duck Hunt totally shuts Lucario down in the neutral game - Duck Hunt has better range; better frames; better projectiles (at zero) - the fact that Dog can't kill very well, against a character that gets stronger the longer he survives, jades this MU just too much. Otherwise, it's actually solidly in Duck Hunt's favour.
You guys have a huge advantage, but you have to respect us. You have to be on point, and likely keep your can available, I won't claim to understand what to do with it other than it being amazing in your keep away. I'm still not much of an expert on the MU, nor would I say I'm that great a Lucario in a match, but his description of the MU almost perfectly matches when I've fought DHs, particularly my friend's. It's a very tense MU on both sides, that requires patience. We have to respect your keep away as much as you have to respect our raw strength.
Whoever screws up first will likely die, but that worry isn't as real for Lucario. Don't play risky when you don't have to.
Probably sounds generic, but I'm far from an expert so that's appropriate.
 
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