Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion

WispBae

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Finally, we've got RosaLuma for rediscussion!

New footage of the next patch, where Luma is buffed again, able to withstand final smashes.

:4duckhunt:VS:rosalina:

Pros (For Doggy!)
  • Doggy never has to approach.
  • Projectiles mess with Luma safely.
  • Rosa's huge size and light weight makes her an easy target.
Cons (For Doggy!)
  • RosaLuma has many more KO options.
  • Master of juggling.
  • Luma is still a fantastic defensive option.
As we've talked about this MU before, and not much has changed since then, most of my former points are the same.

Doggy still never has to approach, as gunmen cannot be absorbed. Spamming gravitational pull is punishable, and doggies will make a habit out of it by spamming projectiles then stopping suddenly. Also with Rosa being so tall and light, she's very easy to hit, and easy to KO off the top, where Doggy get's most of his KO's. Doggy can also stun luma in place, should rosa send her out, by spamming clays until Luma is recalled.

Unfortuantely, once Rosalina gets in, you are going to have a hard time getting away, as she is quite mobile, has many disjointed moves, and can keep applying safe pressure with luma jabs and tilts. Trick shot is usable in the MU, but is quite hard, and would only recommend it for traps, instead of offense, since grav pull is still around.

While this isn't an easy MU, Doggy does have tools to handle it, so I would give it a -1 for Doggy, as Rosalina is better at getting KO's and edge guarding. Just camp, and choose your attacks wisely, one well placed Trick Shot or U-Air is all we need for such a light character.
 

WispBae

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New Week yay! Thank you to everyone for being so patient with me, now we are back on schedule after that crazy last couple weeks!
This week we will be finally done with our old re discussion, making us ALL CAUGHT UP! :happysheep:
Which means, we can now discuss 2 new harder MU's per week, and 1 miscellaneous!

This week we will be talking about the small and adorable Pikachu, a fellow robo spammer, ROB, and one more MU, as suggested by one of the doggy mains! If nobody chooses, I will choose for us!


ROB, before the nerf, was considered the best character in the game. Reason: snaking.

:4duckhunt:VS:4rob:

PROS! (For Doggy)
  • ROB is a giant, heavy target.
  • Picking up gyro ruins a huge chunk of his neutral game.
  • Both of his projectiles can be neutralized by jumping over them.
CONS! (For Doggy)
  • Laser and Gyro clank or destroy all of Doggy's projectiles.
  • Better KO power and set ups into them (Beep Boop, Gryo glide tossing, laser snipes).
  • Great recovery.
Oh man, this MU. It's pretty rough...

Let's settle this straight from the get-go: Yes, ROB can camp. But not as effectively as doggy. ROB's projectiles work much better in an environment to STOP camping, rather than to sit himself on one edge of the map. Many doggies are used to camping, which is why it sometimes feels unwinnable against ROB, as he punishes camping very, VERY hard.

Lasers will disable cans, break clay pigeons, and pierce through gunmen. The drawback being they are very punishable up close, and require charging. So luckily ROB can't camp all too well with those alone. Gyro does the same to our projectiles, except when it comes to gunmen, as it simply knocks them down, without piercing. As for ROB's reflecting arm spin of silliness, there's not large concern with them honestly, as it takes a bit to start up, does not reflect that well, and is very punishable upon finishing. Use this to your advantage.

Up close and personal, ROB excels even better, as Gyro can be spammed if shielded, and has many combos, including the bowel movement inducing "Beep Boop". You'll want to keep him at bay with Fairs, mix things up with grabs, and generally stay in a mid-range-ish field with him, just out of reach of his Fair and Nair, but far enough to protect yourself from gyro.

Offstage, is it possible to gimp ROB with enough pressure, but it has to be calculated, as he can attack, then keep recovering. Keep him off stage and force him to keep having to use more and more fuel until he run out. If you are off stage, however, prepare for a hard time with free laser and gyro potshots, Nair pressure and a disjointed Dair. If you don't know how to recover with a can protecting you, I suggest you learn, as it's the only way to reliably keep him off of you.

I'd give doggy a -2 in this MU, as ROB pretty much stop camping completely, has tools to go in, set-ups into KO's, as well as a kill throw. ROBs buckle under constant pressure, but as it is now, Doggy is not the best rushdown character. He has the ability to somewhat stay aggro, but ROB can easily take control of the situation. Since most of Doggy's KO's are off the top as well, it makes it even harder. I'd switch in this MU, probably go Kirby or Palutena...
 

TheWorstMuppet

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For the third MU, could we discuss a wee bit of Fox? I got bopped hard at weeklies by one last night and I'm not sure what to do!
 

WispBae

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For the third MU, could we discuss a wee bit of Fox? I got bopped hard at weeklies by one last night and I'm not sure what to do!
We CAN talk about Fox, but I would consider that a harder MU, and I think we should discuss more vague or miscellaneous MU's in the third slot, just to keep things fresh. We'll do it though, for this week, if some other like as well.
 

TheWorstMuppet

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We CAN talk about Fox, but I would consider that a harder MU, and I think we should discuss more vague or miscellaneous MU's in the third slot, just to keep things fresh. We'll do it though, for this week, if some other like as well.
Aaah I see. Ok, well I'm not too fussed whichever one we go for next. I was just having difficulty with Fox, 's all. I'd happily vote for Ike, Villager or Megaman too as I have some experience in those matchups. But I'm down for whatever...
 

WispBae

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Alright, let's move on to Fox! @ TheWorstMuppet TheWorstMuppet

I have no idea what this image is about, but it's cute, so we're using it!

:4duckhunt:VS:4fox:

PROS! (For Doggy!)
  • Fast falling and weight make for easy combos.
  • Can escape the Jab Lock combo at any%.
  • Predictable recovery is fairly easy to punish.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • Fox gets in fairly easy.
  • Many combos that lead into KO moves.
  • Reliable reflector.
This is a pretty rough MU for Doggy, but has it's quirks that you can take advantage of, namely in the form of escaping the dreaded Jab Lock combo at any%.

Doggy has issues with fast MU's as we've established already. He also has issues against reflectors. Fox has both of those things. Not only that, but he's also a combo machine and can combo into his many KO options of Up-Smash, Up-Air and Bair. Staying on top of people is what Fox does best, which is no good for Doggy. Just to add insult to injury, his blaster can actually turn around the can as well. He has all the tools he needs to get rid of Doggy. While Doggy can escape the Jab Lock at any percent, it uses Trick Shot to do so, which blows both of you up, so you'll be raising the stakes for both of you in the process.

At the same time, however, Doggy can take advantage of a few things in this MU. Fox still has to approach in this MU, as it's his only way to finish stocks, so take advantage of a camping Fox. His reflector has can be punished with gunmen, by baiting a reflected shot, then jumping over it and tossing out a fair, or tomahawk into grabs. His fast fall speed makes up-air combos fairly easy and getting offstage makes him super vulnerable, just like in the other smash games. Since he can't do much offstage shenanigans, make sure you properly edgeguard him with Trick Shots to stop illusions or Nairs to stop both illusion and Firefox.

I would have to give Doggy a -2 in this MU. Fox gets in very easy, and can do pretty much whatever he wants to Doggy. The quirks can sway things in Doggy's favor at time, but it's not enough for me to warrant a higher score. I'd switch in this MU, go to someone fast or someone who hits hard.
 
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EndlessRain

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A note on the gunmen thing: Fox can cancel his Reflector after reflecting a projectile with a jump, spotdodge, or roll. So you should treat the Reflector as ending as soon as the projectile hits it.
 

TheWorstMuppet

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Yaaaay! Thank you, @ WispBae WispBae !

:4duckhunt: VS :4fox:

The Fox & The Hound is one of my favorite Disney movies...

Real quick, right off the bat I'm gonna explain the situation I found myself in on Monday night. ~Ahem!~

So, we were joined by a coupla new faces at our weeklies that night. One of whom was a Fox player who I had played before a few months ago (he had wrecked me then as well.)

"No problem..." I thought, "I've improved a bit since then. I can take this guy!"

~Cue Slide Whistle Music~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_lxMLhJiw

I haven't felt so helpless during a match for quite some time. Every match I played him ended with me biting the dust. Most of the games had the Jab lock combo, the reflector, pretty standard Fox stuff. Then he would catch me off guard with a stray Illusion or two. I tell ya, it was pretty discouraging to play against. At one point, I switched to Olimar (my co main) to see if I would fair any better, only to find that once I got trapped in the jab lock there was no escape.

Dawg Pros:
  • As Wispy said, can escape jab lock without much hassle.
Dawg Cons:
  • The reflector makes it tricky to get in with Duck Hunts kit.
  • Fox excels at gettin' aaaaaaawll up in your face. Dog can't deal.
  • Fox's lasers actually lock Dogs can in place for a couple seconds.
  • Hard to contest Fox's deadly U-Air with Duck Hunts slow as hell Dair.
  • If Fox reflects the Clay Pigeon, you still hafta deal with the endlag while Fox runs up and kicks you in the face.

Honestly, if anyone has a solution for this match-up I'd love ta hear it! At least with Sonic, he can't reflect nothin'. I'm sure whether to play defensively or offensively against Fox. He seems like a character that's good at punishing you for doing either. I'm not sure what to do.

Edit: Whoops! Forgot to put a score on! -2 for the pooch.
 
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WispBae

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Finally, we move on to Pikachu. I'll extend the MU discussion by a day or so, since I know I'm introducing Pika so late.

"Please... please don't nerf me... I'm too cute, Daddy Sakurai..."

:4duckhunt:
VS:4pikachu:

PROS! (For Doggy!)
  • Trick Shot can stop Thunder Jolt.
  • Outranges Pikachu's moveset.
  • Standing by Trick Shot makes approaching hard for Pika, even with Quick Attack.
CONS! (For Doggy)
  • One of the best rushdown characters.
  • Very safe moveset.
  • Can somewhat camp as well.
On paper, this seems like a horrible MU for Doggy, but in my experience, a few key points make it pretty tolerable, and dare I say... ALMOST EVEN!?

It's really all about traps. Keeping Trick Shot nearby you instead of using it offensively really stops a ton of Pika's approach options, due to the risk of being punished. Almost all his approaches can be stopped by waiting in shield, and blowing up Trick Shot on top of you. So feel free to use the can to stop his jolt approaches, or wait in front of it to punish getting too close.

As for the rest of the projectiles, clay is pretty risky in this MU since Pika can run under it or jump over it to easily punish the endlag, and gunmen can be good against stale Jolts, but are risky due to their timing. While Pika is great at getting in, a defensive Doggy can keep him out with his disjointed aerial moves. Pikachu also has better KO moves and set ups, although they are sometimes easy to see coming, such as up throw to down B, or F-Smash followed by rolling away.

Offstage, Pikachu can pretty much do whatever he wants to Doggy, where as Doggy has to be careful when Pikachu is offstage, since he has so many options to get back. Most of the time, I'll play it safe with Nairs or up-airs, as unsafe quick attacks can lead to KO's.

On paper, it seems like Pikachu should have a major advantage, but in practice, I've been able to beat Pikachu just by camping with Trick Shot acting as a form of Luma. Plus with most of Pika's KO's either coming from a hard read or set up, you can tell when it's time to run away... It's hard to grade this MU, but I'd give it either a 0 or -1 for Doggy.
 
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M15t3R E

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Duck hunt dog's projectile-heavy moveset makes Pikachu's general need to approach even more apparent. This MU is pretty even, however, in the event of both players being skilled with their character but neither having experience against the other character, Doggy's probably gonna win. So to make this MU even, the Pikachu player must be adaptive. The way to overcome so many projectiles is to anticipate doggy's attempts in shutting down Pikachu's approaches. If you as Pikachu can see those gunners and the frisbee coming out before they even do, you're at a strong advantage. Pikachu wins the point blank range game but if complacent will die to random smash attacks which have surprising speed and knockback. In the air Pikachu possesses somewhat less range but it's more than made up for in speed and utility. The pooch is very susceptible to edgeguarding due to an exploitable recovery similar to Olimar's and Pikachu in turn excels offstage. The MU is is either even or slightly in Pikachu's advantage.
I agree with the 0 or -1 for Doggy estimate.
 

Eonn

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I spent a few hours playing against a good duck hunt and agree with the above posts. If Pikachu doesn't knw the matchup he's in trouble, but if he does it becomes fairly even.

Wild gunman can be killed by tjolt and the clay pigeon can be run under and leave you open. Space the clay to avoid being punished and keep deploying gunman, since they will either pressure Pikachu or just force him to keep tjolting allowing for some predictable movement and potential punishes.

The can is quite effective if used properly, and if you combine it with aerial pressure and other projectiles you can limit Pikachu's options and punish a lot of QA angles. When Pikachu starts getting in on you, mix up shields and spot dodges. Shield is quite effective for the first bit, but you will start being tomahawked and then take a ton of damage trying to get back onstage.

At higher percents it's probably safer to shield; you can be killed easily if a spotdodge is read, otherwise Pikachu either has to gimp you or uthrow you at ~200%.
 

WispBae

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Thank you to everyone who participated, moving on to Week 6!

This week we'll be taking on the Super Fighting Robot, Mega Man, the boy who faced Giygas and lived, Ness, and one more random MU! If nobody votes for it, I will choose Peach!


"Did... did you lose some weight...? You look good. =]"

:4duckhunt:VS:4megaman:

PROS (For Doggy!)
  • Trick Shot is a fantastic harassment tool.
  • Able to outcamp Megaman.
  • Able to juggle Mega Man.
CONS (For Doggy!)
  • Metal Blade/Crash Bomber dispatch Clay and Gunmen.
  • Super disjointed U-Air and Dair.
  • Great recovery.
This MU feels pretty even for me, but Mega Man mains aren't too rare in FL...

Duck Hunt can outcamp the robot master, really by using the can offensively and defensively. If Mega Man isn't approaching, just sending them up high will stop him. If he is approaching, using it as a shield to absorb crash bomber and lemons. Even though he can out-camp the bomber, it's really more about who gets set up first, as Mega Man excels at closing options with Metal Blade and his disjoints.

He does have better KO power than Doggy (feels like everyone does), but the set up are quite predictable, with his Bair being his fastest option.

Camp when you need to, and if you can bait the Hard Knuckle, it's a free punish when he is trying to land. He does have some difficulty landing, and his heavy weight makes him great for juggling. Take advantage of it.

I'd give this MU a 0, doesn't feel like any side has a huge advantage... Though I do need help talking about the MU...
 

TheWorstMuppet

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Myself and another Megaman player in our scene constantly battle each other.

:4duckhunt:Vs:4megaman:

Pros for Dawg:
  • Projectiles outrange most of Megamans. Can take control over the stage easier.
  • Megamans recovery is pretty easy to stop.
  • Getting Megaman in the air limits his options.
  • Gunmen can take the hit from Megaman's F-Smash.
Cons for Dawg:
  • Megaman is deceptively heavy. Quite difficult to kill.
  • As Wispy said, Blade cuts through Gunmen and Clay Pidgeon. Megaman's sliding down-tilt also goes through Gunmen and Clay easily.
  • Lemons can disrupt can.

So I play this match up quite a fair bit, and it does seem weirdly even for the most part.

Because of Megaman's fixed range of attacks, Duck Hunt is able to set up and take control of the stage quite often. However, Megaman can cut through most of what Duck Hunt lays down. It's a war of attrition if I ever saw one!

Megaman has a lot going for him in the weight department. In our last weekly, I lost 2-1 to the Megaman player all because I couldn't kill him. His DI was on point and he lived up to 222%! I was not able to lay down set ups, as he would slide through or disrupt the can through the use of lemons. It was quite a stressful match.

However, when I was able to set up and get him up in the air, there was not an awful lot he could do. Megaman has a trickier time landing against Duck Hunt then the other way round, I reckon. The Megaman player liked to do short hop>diagonal-down metal blade>wait for the shield>punish (through grab or uppercut up-tilt) and it was easy to avoid after a while.). He would also short hop back and forth while firing pellets. Ended up exploding the can in my face a few times because of that. Ack!

What I think I should do in this match-up now is use my projectiles in a less conventional manner, not stay rooted to the ground so much. Avoid using Clay Pigeon unless I'm in the air or he is, otherwise I'm fairly certain I'll just get buzzsaw'd. Bait out more air dodges when Megaman is in the air through up-tilting a fresh can. If we're both on the ground, I should maintain a certain distance from him most of the time.

One important thing I take from playing Megaman so much is learning the length each of his projectiles go before disappearing. That's really helped me in the long run. And that back-air is a really scary edgeguarding tool. Avoid it like the dickens.

Anyway, I say this is a 0 on the match-up scale. While it's even, it's certainly not a fun time for either player.

Like, 222%?! Are you havin' a laff?

Edit: Also, I'm cool with talking about Peach next, les do it!
 
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BJN39

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Just wanted to drop by and let y'all know that the Zeldas have started discussion of the Duck Hunt MU, and we'd love input from the Duck Hunt players as well! ^^

:4zelda: click Zelda to be teleported directly to our MU thread
 

WispBae

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Alright! Time for Ness next!


Toon Links all over the world are abused every day, and never speak up about it...

:4duckhunt:
VS:4ness:
PROS! (For Doggy)
  • Can play the keep away game from Ness fairly easily.
  • Trick Shot can edgeguard Ness much easier compared to other characters.
  • None of Doggy's projectiles can be absorbed.
CONS! (For Doggy)
  • Ness's combo game and set-ups.
  • F-Smash reflector from on Ness can kill doggy (Trick Shot reflected).
  • Fast moveset and reliable projectiles gives Ness a huge advantage when he has stage control.
This MU is a bit tricky to comment on, as the two Ness' I face on a regular basis also happen to be some of the best Ness in my area, and are high on our PR. (Paging @Noa. and @P.I.E.).

This MU is super dependent on stage control, as both characters are very much lacking when off stage.

The good news is Doggy can play the keep away game with Ness fairly easy, as Ness really has no foolproof way of advancing without jumping (Fair would beat it as it outranges a Ness fair) or shielding (which leads to free grabs, more projectile set-up, or gives time to escape and make the situation neutral again). While Ness does have the option to reflect projectiles with an F-Smash, it is risky against the gunmen as is is hard to time, and doesn't do much against Clay Pigeons, having so little knockback when reflected. Trick Shot, on the other hand, is scary when reflected, so be wary when using it against a smart Ness.

The bad news is when Ness gets in, he can almost guarantee stage control with his fast moveset, combo game, and reliable projectiles in the form of PK Fire and PK Thunder 1. He can cover options well with Thunder, and make safe retreats with pivot Fires. With stage control, it's even more scary that he has the strongest KO throw as well, one mistake and you are done.

Both characters are pretty bad off stage however. Doggy has no way to protect himself besides bouncing the can, while Ness has an obvious double jump arc and a risky recovery. If Ness is off stage, try to send him horizontally, then Trick Shot pressure is a breeze. Hitting the Can back lowers the distance his recovery goes, the Can can absorb the hit of PK thunder, and if all else fails, it's still free damage and the chance to KO.

Honestly, this MU feels like a -1 at most For Doggy, only because Ness' KO options are wayyyyy better than Doggy's. Otherwise, this MU feels like a landslide for one side or another, based on stage control.
 

TheWorstMuppet

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@ WispBae WispBae I'd love to! Thank you!


~Why, there she is now! Ah so noble, regal even! Pure of heart and mind-- Waaaait a minute!~

Alright! The Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom VS a Dog and a Duck.

My experience comes from playing a Peach player in my region frequently. Hopefully contributors from the Peach Boards will give their insight on the match-up.

:4duckhunt:VS:4peach:

Pro's for the dog:
  • Peach is pretty easy to juggle.
  • Peach has to approach most of the time.
  • Peach is pretty sluggish, making it easier to set up projectiles and camp her out.
Con's for the dog:
  • If we are in the air or offstage, we are in serious danger. Peach's aerial game is insane!
  • Timed retreating fairs can smack the can away and Toad can protect her from other projectiles.
  • If Peach has control of the stage it can be difficult to push back.
I believe that this match up is pretty much even. While Duck Hunt does have the means to push Peach away, Peach also has the means to stop it. A constant battle for the stage, similar in some ways to the Megaman matchup. Peach's turnip only goes so far and knowing the range of it is pretty important to Duck Hunts success. Its uses come from stopping the dogs projectiles in their tracks and preventing the duo from making it back on stage.

Travelling for Peach consists mainly by air, and the can is a blessing for preventing Peaches approach. In fact, once Peach is in a situation where she needs to return to the ground, it can be pretty easy to juggle her up (Peach is not the best at landing safely.) The can is useful in that instance too, as a weapon and a baiter for the air dodge. She does still have Toad, but the can can take advantage of that too. Toad has a bit of ending lag, and a well placed up-air can send her away.

Now, while Duck Hunt can keep Peach up in the air for good measure, Peach can juggle Duck Hunt all day long. Duck Hunt has no downwards options bar a slow-as-heck dair, so Peach can lay down some heavy damage. And woe betide you if you find yourself offstage against a Peach, as her fair and turnips can send you packing.

My advice in this match up is play it patiently. It's not going to be a fast game. There will be a lot of progressive stage control going on. Should Duck Hunt get Peach in the air and gain control of the stage, he'll find keeping her there quite easy. But the same can be said for Peach, who is far more terrifying when she is commanding the ground and sky.

I give this match up a 0 all round. I'm not familiar with Peaches customs so I won't go into detail on them. However Peach mains are welcome to give their thoughts how customs affect her here.
 
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Luco

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Sorry for our inactivity here. A lot of Ness mains don't like to travel too far hahaha.

I play both characters but I wouldn't be able to tell you how they'd go together at high level. Literally the only thing I know about this MU is @DunnoBro played Shaky (I think?) in customs off and hated it. He also said that customs on was probably closer to even.

Ness excels in rushdown, if he breaks through doggy's wall doggy will pay for it. And oh my god the edge-guards. Both characters really suck off-stage, but I feel like this is one of the situations where Doggy hates it more. Fair pushes away can and hits doggy, and it's like edge-guarding ROB because he takes so long and is so slow to go anywhere using upB. Ness can be edge-guarded with Dair and Can but the first is hard to hit with and the second is hard to kill with and I feel like it's less reliable. Maybe that's just a main bias coming in though, it may be that off-stage is quite even and can is actually a far better tool than I'm giving it credit for.

I wouldn't give a MU rating on this myself because I don't know enough about it. Preliminary thoughts would have made me guess +2/-2 because of what DunnoBro was saying but it could be less.
 

WispBae

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In regards to the Peach MU, I'd have to agree with what @ TheWorstMuppet TheWorstMuppet said.

A few extra notes of my own. Trick Shot is a god send in the neutral game against Peach, as it is a hard counter to a lot of float nonsense. Clay piegon is also great at ounishing retreating whiffed Fairs off the ground. The gunmen, however, feel kind of lacking in this MU, as Peach is much more comfortable in a zone slighty above but out of reach from you, meaning Gunmen will have to be a defensive or retreating option.

The thing about Peach is she's a super combo heavy kinda lady, and she racks up the damage fast. So even if Doggy keeps her at bay for a while, it doesn't take much to make the game even again when peach gets in.

I'd give this MU a +1~0 to Doggy. While he does have the tools to deal with this MU, mistakes are punished very hard with Peach's amazing edgeguarding, safe Fairs, and turnips.
 
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Disclaimer: I've not played any Duck Hunt Duo's with customs on so I'm afraid I can't comment on that.

Do whatever you can to stop Peach from getting in. Watch carefully how Peach approaches - DHD has a number of options to combat aerial approaches as @ TheWorstMuppet TheWorstMuppet has said so I personally choose to pull up a Turnip and approach from ground with shield. I find this puts me in a good position as out of shield (OoS) Turnip can punish dashing/aerial approaches or is a punish option if DHD throws a Clay Pigeon (roll behind, throw Turnip). It's important to mix it up with grabs and attacks so she doesn't get the hit on you because that can lead to nasty combos! Expect to see a good number of Turnips in this match.

Make good use of your Fair - it's got good range and can beat out her Fair approaches. Pivot/spaced F Smashes are great at punishing any whiffed aerial landings she makes. I would play keep-away for this entire match - let her come to you. Chase her when she's trying to land! Get a Can out and follow where she goes - DHD's Uair is very scary indeed for Peach and is a solid KO move.

Peach Bomber can send Can pretty far and is a good way to get rid of it so be ready to detonate it if you think she's going to try and hit it back. Be very careful how you use Clay Pigeon - it's great for racking up damage and interrupting Peach's aerial shenanigans but I've found myself scoring early kills by anticipating a Clay Pigeon as I'm chasing DHD, jumping over it and smacking DHD with a fast fall Fair.

I'll add more if I have time. I'll leave with probably the most important part of this MU - Peach edgeguarding DHD. Things become very, very lopsided in Peach's favour when DHD is offstage because of her Float/Turnips/strong Fair. I'm...not really sure what advice to give other than try your best to fight back in whatever means required (Cans, Fair etc.). You can also try airdodging past her aerial and then recovering (not the best option I know). If you see the opportunity to land back onstage I would do so. Mix it up and be on the look out for any habits Peach might have that you can take advantage of.
 

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MegaChu up there is definitely a more effortful appearance to look like a crossover hybrid than Mugen's MegaYoshi is. While MegaYoshi is a legit awesome Mega Man/Yoshi hybrid in Mugen in terms of gameplay (which I do adore him for), his appearance... is lackluster to say the least (his accurate-to-MM7 walking style, on the other hand... :shiro:). It's just that when it comes to LOOKING like a Mega Man hybrid, MegaChu here puts Mugen!MegaYoshi to shame. I would LOVE to play MegaChu in Mugen or a MM styled game~ He'd probably give MegaYoshi a run for his money. X)

Funny how its Toon Link that Ness is about to BThrow, because the both of them have BThrows that KO. XD

Wait what, you drew that pic up there, Muppet!? Yooo, that's GDLK! </FGC Commentator> He actually doesn't look that bad in that outfit. ;o I would dare say better than Luigi... ;O *Then notices that DH's eyes are completely covered by her hair--* *Immediately thinks of Bun/Tuff from the Kirby anime--* *Loudly squees!* :happysheep: Give him Bun's Hair-- *Suddenly has hearts eminating from his head*

Okay, now that I've got my photo comments out of the way, let's get this big post started.

I am definitely in agreeance with the above posts thus far regarding all 3 MUs. Thus, I'd rather focus on their Custom Loadouts and team strats for Mega Man specifically (of the FG variety at least, for the viewers who may be looking for intel regarding FG Teams here. I can at least link us to some footage of actual teams on 1 of those MUs). I know little about what Stages those 3 would want to try to take us, aside from our usual bad stages like Castle Siege & Duck Hunt (Ness probably wouldn't want the walk-off room at Castle Siege either, if he wants his Fires & Thunders to go off, nor would MM), since I personally don't play as those 3 very often myself (though my 2nd youngest brother frequently plays all but MM). Before getting to those...


Misc. notes that we may have missed thus far:

VS Mega Man:
Leaf Shield is Mega Man's other projectile that can pierce our entire arsenal. This will most likely show up when you steal his Metal Blade. We CAN disrespect Leaf Shield with our (shorthop) FAir, and if we can send him off-stage with it active, he'll have to get rid of it before he can attack with anything else (thanks Loading Screen Tips~). We can hold on to MB for quite a long while, due to our entire arsenal being tied to the B button and not the A button. As I have once mentioned before in another thread, when we're trying to hold on MB, we'll be more inclined to run around him while laming him out with our arsenal for as long as we can. MM can walk & even run towards us with LS active, and he'll most likely be trying to grab you when it's active for the damage. Said walking is more effective if MM's running Down 2 (Skull Barrier), because it'll reflect our arsenal while he's walking towards us. The gutsy ones will try to edgeguard you with LS active, especially at stages with walls, since both you and him can wall-jump off of them.
Our arsenal can protect us (and our partners) from much of MM's arsenal, including his FSmash! This opens up chances for us to get in on him.
MM can both Jump Cancel & land seamlessly while shooting Lemons, boosting both his projectile output and his mixups.

VS Peach:
Our arsenal can definitely block off Turnips and Bombers, especially our Gunmen.
Our FAir can outrange many of her aerials aside from Turnips, which we DO have a chance at stealing with our FAir??

VS Ness:
Cans are the sturdiest & most reliable guards we have against his PK Fire. Gunmen can do it, but only Megas can survive the 1st dose of Fire.
Clays can also do it, but its endlag makes it the worst of our 3 options, making it more fitting of a last resort option for when Can's blown up & Gunmen's KO'd.
Our entire arsenal can handle blocking off PK Thunder, with Gunmen being the fastest, Cans being the most reliable, and Clays being the most distant. PKT2, however, destroys our entire arsenal, and if we're nearby when that's doing so, we'll be getting KO'd shockingly early. So don't try to use your arsenal to block off PKT2 if it's coming towards you.

As someone who has made use of Customs for all 3 folks, I certainly can give intel regarding them.

Likely Custom Loadouts for:

Mega Man: x3x2
Most likely: 1312 or 3312

Shadow Blade canNOT be stolen, and it'll pierce our entire arsenal, much like his Metal Blade can. It doesn't go as far as MB does, but it can set up for numerous followups.

While Hyper Bomb's arc is great for sailing over our arsenal, I do wonder if he'd be more interested in piercing our arsenal instead.

Not sure which of his Side B moves he'd run. Danger Wrap seems to be the most likely pick, given its KO power, forward-walking mobility, and the anti-air angle that his Air Shooter doesn't already cover.

Same goes for Up B. Don't know which one he'd run. I'd probably run Up 2 as either DH or MM if I KNOW I'll be going to either a walled Omega stage or the Duck Hunt stage. Otherwise Up 1, considering the tech that's been discovered for it as of late, particularly the crafty early KO setup he has on fresh stocks by making us land on Rush Coil and then Air Shooting us after we bounce off of it from said fresh stock.

Skull Barrier gives him a full-body reflector that he can walk and even run towards us with, and he can still grab us while it's active to add damage.

Ness: 2122 or 2322 or 2123 or 2323
Most likely: 2123

Rising PK Flash gives Ness a disjointed anti-air option that ignores our arsenal. It's his most usable of the Neutral B moves, due to its speed. Ness's PK Freeze is NOT Lucas's PK Freeze, so it'll not likely be of use here.

Side 3 is Lucas's PK Fire, which creates a burst of fire that goes beyond your arsenal, and if you're nearby when Side 3 collides with them, you're getting roasted.

Lasting PK Thunder is Lucas's PK Thunder that lets him pierce our entire arsenal with PKT1. It survives our PKT1 gimp attempts, making edgeguarding him harder.

Odds of PK Magnet absorbing our exploding Cans is not too high, so he'll want to switch it out with 1 of 2 Down B moves. PK Vacuum is the most usable of the 3 Down B moves, due to it being an actual attack that can set up for some of his other more powerful attacks.

Forward PK Magnet is Lucas's PK Magnet that gives him an extra upclose attack while still letting him absorb our exploding Cans for health. For being such a versatile option, Down 3 might be his preferred Down B for this MU.

It's almost as if Lucas, the Betrayer of Boney, was built to handle us more than Ness was.... O.o

Peach: 2313, 1313, 1312, 2312.
Most likely: 2312 or 3312

Sleepy Toad sets up for free Smashes if it tags you on the ground. If you're in the air, it's a solid anti-air that can KO at high percents better than default. If triggered, this and default will pierce Gunmen & Clays (though Clays will survive
Grumpy Toad's spores are guaranteed to come out, since it's not a Counter. It'll KO default/Quick Gunmen in 1 go (and pierce Megas), push away Cans, and pierce Clays without breaking them (meaning Clays will beat Grumpy if it's started too late).

Flying Peach Bomber gives her a 45 degree anti-air that she normally doesn't cover. Its start up is faster, and both its damage and its KO power are greater as well. If she whiffs it, her endlag is greater than her default.

Light Veggies travel very slowly when thrown, providing awesome cover fire for her approaches. Stitchfaces are still possible with Down 2, and I'm certain they'll still KO at high percents.

Against all 3, DH will likely run 3123 or 1123.

Zigzag Can is easier to juggle MM with, due to his weight, and Peach, due to her being in the air often. Ness is small enough for this to be hard. It can still block off much of all their arsenal.

Duck Jump Snag is our Wakeup DP that may not help us against MM's DAir, but it'll help us escape him (and Peach & Ness as well), should he somehow get in on us. It'll still function relatively well against Peach & Ness's edgeguards. This will help us escape PK Fires as well.

Mega Gunmen will be big stop signs for the majority of MM's weaponry, Peach's Turnips & Bombers, and Ness's Fires & Thunders. It'll still get pierced by Metal Blade, Leaf/Skull/Plant Barriers, Tornado Holds, Shadow Blades, all 3 Toads (easiest being Grumpy) and PKT2.


Match Vid references:

VS Mega Man

Most noteworthy FG 1v1 reference, provided by our occasional DH player, AceStarThe3rd: https://youtu.be/IjWS7uw1LUc?t=4m4s
This set lasts until 15:13, so he stuck around with this Mega Man for quite a while. Plus, he's somewhat vocal enough during this set that he lets us in on some parts of his thinking throughout the session.

Actual Doubles Tournament reference, courtesy of Croi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDnU5IB2BJw

VS Ness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCgNgFKxPo

Customs on for this one-- nope (skip to 06:30): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Oya7-VwGY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2RpVhQTk5s

VS Peach

(Skip to 13:34, this Peach is running 2111) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2lCSDaAjnI

(This is a Friendlies set, so its validity is... questionable?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRMGKqCe0pI

Teams:

FG:

Mega Man:
As an ally: "With one of the Kings of Spam on our side, we can forge the sturdiest of campsites!" - A darker me that wanted to take advantage of FG Teams's lack of friendly fire to its fullest.
Make sure not to throw out Clays & Cans if MM's trying to fire off FSmashes, for those will nullify each other.

Folks like King Dedede, Donkey Kong, & Bowser are going to struggle greatly trying to break into our campsite.

Folks like Falco, Villager, and G&W, however, will threaten our fortress with their reflectors, Pockets, and energy absorbers. While we doggies have what it takes to circumvent such measures, MM is not as capable as we are at that... at least when it comes to his FSmash. Our arsenal (especially Gunmen) will be KEY in protecting ourselves from many reflected projectiles except for Metal Blades and Leaf Shields.

The more creative answers to this duo will be folks like Olimar (see page 5 of this thread), another DH, and Bowser Jr. (again, see page 5 of this thread).

On the aggro rushdown side of things, dense cover fire will protect our approaches & break into opposing campsites, and both of us can rack up damage quickly from a distance. Mega Man doesn't need as much time to set up his arsenal as we do, so he can lead the charge for us while we're preparing to cover for him.

Mega Man will have to carry the burden of KO-ing folks, so use the combined arsenal to set up KOs whenever possible.

It's almost like as if we're the non-robotic Rush... Kreygasm FrankerZ RalpherZ

Against him: While we'd normally be content with trying to lame him out in a 1v1 setting, we'll likely have partners that will need to get in on him (ex. Ike, Kirby, ), so we'll probably have to be by our partner's side, serving as an escort. Said partners will appreciate us focusing on him ourselves. If we're lucky enough, we'll be blessed with folks like G&W, (T)Links, and Ness/Lucas, who can help relieve us of the need to strongly focus on him, due to their abilites to either compete with or scare him from using certain parts of MM's arsenal, allowing us to more comfortably support our partner while turning more attention to MM's partner.

As potent as Double Mega Men are without friendly fire (as this short clip from StylesX2 can prove: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q69sHGY89v0), we doggies have what it takes to weather their onslaught of lemons. Once their Metal Blades & Leaf Shields are getting thrown out, however, our arsenal may crumble, but hopefully our partner can sneak inside or fortify our walls when that happens.

Either way, we'll have to get ready for a Wild Coil West shootout that will intensely last for quite a while until somebody finds a hole in a side's defenses or the whole 2 minutes passes by.

Actual teams:
As an ally: ...

Against him: ... I myself have not had this privilege. I'd recommend asking Croi about this, for he's the player in the Tournament vid I linked to above.

Ratios for all 3 MUs:

Mega Man: +1 with defensive styles, 0 with rushdown styles

Peach: 0 with both defensive & rushdown styles

Ness: 0 with defensive styles, -1 with rushdown styles (his payoffs upclose can exceed yours)
 
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Damn, @ TheWorstMuppet TheWorstMuppet with the MVP cutesie doodles and @ Splooshi Splashy Splooshi Splashy covering us with the custom metagame. You guys the real MVP, make me proud! ^^

AIGHT DOE, WEEK 7, Thank you to all our guests who participated!

This week we will be covering the LEWD speedy sensation, Zero Suit Samus, receiving a visit from the mayor of Smashville, Villager and one more random MU, to be voted on! If nobody chooses, it shall be Kirby!


Sometimes you wake up, and just know it's gonna be a bad day...

:4duckhunt:VS:4zss:

PROS! (For Doggy)
  • Disjointed moveset keeps her out in mid-air.
  • Trick Shot slows her down drastically.
  • Gunmen also slow her down and protect you from her flip.
CONS! (For Doggy)
  • Juggles can lead to easy KO's.
  • Ridiculously fast still, gets in easier than others.
  • Stun Gun deals with Trick Shot and Gunmen.
Here is a video of Falln just destroying a ZSS with Doggy.

Anyways, this MU is pretty hard, since ZSS is the queen of getting in, with fast grabs, fast moveset, and a paralyzer to boot.

On Doggy's side, you've got a disjointed moveset to keep her out. Trick Shot is a great ground trap, and forces her to approach from the air, where Fair and Up-Air outranges her. Trying to approach with flip is risky for ZSS as well since Doggy can just shield and reset to neutral, or even punish if they are fast enough.

On ZSS's side, she has a paralyzer to pressure with and deal with Trick Shot, if Doggy is camping next to it. Gunmen will most likely deal with her faster, but if she is already charging a shot, summoning them will just let them at least absorb a hit. The fact that she is so fast and can get in easily and potentially combo in to death makes ZSS so scary. The MU is winnable, but it's largely mindgames and covering options with Trick Shot and disjoint, and quite frankly, ZSS's mindgames don't have to be as strong since she gets so much from one hit or grab.

I'd give this a -1 for Doggy, as long as Doggy hardcore camps, as it's pretty much the only way to make this MU bearable. Camp and use your opportunists to get safe strings. Do not try to out neutral ZSS up close, she will always win, making the MU a -3 for you.

Side note not related to discussion: Would you guys (@ TheWorstMuppet TheWorstMuppet and @ Splooshi Splashy Splooshi Splashy ) be willing to help out with the MU thread? Usually one post takes me 30-ish minutes as I review the MU in my head over and over, not to mention having everyone wait on me to start the discussion is unfair to Doggies who want to talk. You'd pretty much just choose one of the MU's you want and just start the conversation, give a foundation for everyone to build and debate around. If not, I don't mind continuing to start discussions, but it's hard with two classes and job hunting at the same time, as well as staying sharp in Smash. It won't stop me from doing it, but I already have a super erratic schedule as it is. No worries if ya don't want to though, just means discussions will be a tinge slower, hehe.
 

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Fer sure, @ WispBae WispBae I'd be glad to help out!

I don't have much experience against Villager. Not enough to write about anyway. @ Splooshi Splashy Splooshi Splashy would you like to take on this matchup?

As for the vote, Kirby's a good shout! Certainly like to talk about either Kirby or Pac Man this week!
 

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Sure, I'll give the DH VS Villager MU a try.

Though I'll be honest: The majority of my personal experience against Villager comes from FG Anywhere, and he/she's a frequent occurrance there. In FG Anywhere, it's the Teams room I find him in the most, which is where I reside the most, followed by FFA. Hopefully I can find some tournament footage of this MU, both in singles and in doubles-- *Recalls Croi's most recent post in the Vid thread* First the Mega Man MU, now the Villager MU. Something tells me we'll want to invite him to this thread, since we've probably forgot to do so during last week for the MM MU.

I myself DO play Chillager, but only really when I'm tryharding with a high tier, which is most likely after going on a long enough losing streak to saltily pick him (I'd say 10+ losses?? Maybe 20+?? He's definitely among my later picked chars, that's for sure). I've also taken to picking him after losing to super-defensive Villagers in FG FFAs & Teams and going as full-on aggro rushdown as I do with virtually every other character in an attempt to make the statement of "Hey camper, Chillager CAN rush down folks like as if he's Captain Falcon, and STILL have a shot at winning."). I DO have all of his Customs unlocked, and I have made the EVO sets, including other deck ideas, so I can at least help fill us in on that aspect of the MU.

Against a Villager, I'm more inclined to pick Jr than DH, due to Jr's superior aerial movement options in comparison to DH, who NEEDS walls to help survive Bowling Ball edgeguards. For as much as Jr players despise the Villager MU, at least he has the option to recover high against him. DH doesn't have that luxury.

It's the Custom decks part that I can at least get started on for now:

Villager's going to likely bring 1322, aka the CaptainAwesum Deck that got folks in a tizzy at EVO (and got me squeeing as I recalled ChrisG's Morrigan/Doom/Vergil team in UMVC3, complete with Astral Vision --> Fly/Unfly + "Soul Fist! x???" + "HIDDEN MISSILE! x??". Coincidentally, we and Mii Gunner are also accuse-able of being like ChrisG's team...)

Our deck will probably be 3122 or 3121 or 2122 or 2121 or 1122 or 1121. Of these decks, I'd personally rep 3121.

Explanations for these deck selections will hopefully come soon.

As for rallying the other Villagers over here, I personally really want to use certain Higurashi related photos, what with that axe of his, the unnerving smile that rivals Kyubey, and the Killager nickname.... XP

I too would be down with talking about the Kirby MU, what with the Kirbies that came out during EVO, Croi's clutch win against him as DH that he reported in the Vid thread, and how shocked I am at not seeing more Kirbies trying to copy our Cans....


EDIT:
Match Vid references for the DH VS Villager MU:

The famous rushdown doggie from Japan, Brood, VS the remarkable rushdown Villager also from Japan, Ranai/Karisuma: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grDPBbiArc8

1st match only: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJM6wjPh378

Customs on, DH's with 3113, and Villager's with 1322: https://youtu.be/7AkdeD-WkrU?t=3m31s


EDIT 2: Just found out that Villager's Neutral 2, Garden, can still take our Clays (tested) and possibly even Cans (untested, but I presume he can), but it can't take Gunshots. Thus, 2322 might be a genuine option against us, possibly moreso than 1322.
 
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Shaya

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I haven't legitimately played this match up enough to really know or ascertain anything for certain.
I tend to feel quite a few of the projectiles can be shielded and grabbed by zamus (tether coming in handy), not enough for her to just need to shield camp (like against sword wielders), but -stuff-

Duck Hunt is generally really low/crouched to the ground in a lot of attacks, which requires her to slow down a lot, as whiffed aerials are easy peasy dash attack/grab.
Off stage isn't much fun for Duck Hunt.

Kill power discrepancy may push Zero Suit ahead on average.

Sorry I can't say much. Duck Hunt to me seems a lot more about a player's skill at dealing with elements more so than match ups quite often.

Oh yeah, customs off, it's probably noticeably better for duck hunt, although at least Zair is pretty good for punishing gunmen usage of all types.
 
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Is there any place in specific to recommend the next MU discussion? I've been having difficulties with Pac Man's side B and how it bounces the Trick Shot back, so some discussion about that match up would be nice in the future.

I wish I could comment a bit on the ZSS match up but I'm the only person in my region who plays her / DH, so I wouldn't know how the MU could play out besides some speculation from both characters' point of view.
 

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Is there any place in specific to recommend the next MU discussion? I've been having difficulties with Pac Man's side B and how it bounces the Trick Shot back, so some discussion about that match up would be nice in the future.

I wish I could comment a bit on the ZSS match up but I'm the only person in my region who plays her / DH, so I wouldn't know how the MU could play out besides some speculation from both characters' point of view.
You can suggest 'em here! Think Kirby's up next, but Pac Man will mostly likely be next!
 
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Man I started typing this up but it's gone now sigh...
I remember seeing this video from a long time ago and had to hold onto my head to make sure it didn't fall off ( I shook my head a lot watching this zss and I am supposed to be the queen of fraud zss's).

The can DHD has will definitely set up alot of traps,baits ,mind games ect and its not worth the risk of hitting it with anything other then paralyzers or side b's. Even when you do hit the can and it switches directions It should be assumed that you dogs will always notice and it only really gives us nothing to worry about unless you redirect it with one of your own attacks.

It's been a while since I did this MU but from the understandings I've had while running it there is a heavy game of Rock paper scissors in terms of our specials and even some stalemates.

DHD --------------- ---------- ZSS
neutral b stalemate- neutral b (just turns it around)
neutral b loses to side b (explosion hit box I can't remember if the first hits work)
side B beats uncharged lasers but are destroyed by charged ones
side B lose to side B explosions (again I'ma fraud and forgot if the initial first hits work)
Down B loses to Down B (only if she reacts in time and is close enough predicting them makes it easier)
up B loses to Down B spikes and footstools (if your low enough or non wall techable stage)
PLEASE NOTE
Even if this is what can happen things like timing changes the outcome a lot for example throwing your side b only to explode it right away before she even reacts to seeing it will have her get hit as she's out streching her arms


There a few things wrong with the video but I understand it's to point out options , However I am not entirely sure about some of them for example at 1:10 when the zss flip jumps towards center stage Pivot smash as a punish can work but I don't think she even fully utilized her horizontal recovery during that flip jump. I swear she could have squeezed out a little bit more momentum which would have let her kick DHD.

Things like air dodging into the ground should be a last option for stuff like the first 15 seconds, Better Zss's will probably try to flip jump to edge and tether even if you have a spike you need to cover the distance and shes not just helpless from hit stun.
I don't know how fast or reliable upsmash is but in cases where ZSS down b's your shield if she kicks your shield from a point that will let her land on Bf's top platform or slightly below it from the bounce, She can jump or perform any action before hitting the ground ( in hindsight doesn't really matter half of the time but It's easy to catch people off guard who get greedy for punishing it).

This MU requires patience from Zss as she can not just roll her face into the controller and expect a win. The Can and gunmen are generally gonna be things you need to worry about, because In terms of side b you can see DHD start to throw it so you can react but doing so while the Can is just sitting there and a gunman whose ability you've probably forgotten about is standing infront of you makes things dicey. In all honesty if the zss is weak against projectiles which a lot us are because she's so tall and doesn't get the same "el oh el I'm holding down to crouch and your missing me with all your projectiles" treatment as the other characters, She will either get flustered and throw the match by being overzealous when she finally gets in or Reckless because she hasn't all game (if your camp is that good).

IF she can bypass these walls and semantics she need only get you off stage without your double jump IMO, I understand that the footstool part of up B is not exactly Ideal for edgeguarding DHD(unless 70 ish%) However she should be able to just drift into position to get a down b kick spike at a point low enough to kill you for free because your up b has no hit box while still being somewhat limited.

DHD can disrupt her grab game even better then most people because of Can and Gunmen which only sucks if shes not aware,spaced properly , or acting without any hesitation. Examples would be the throw armor from the Can that appeared in the video she should be able to use throws to get rid of Gunman who are nearby with proper spacing. If she grabs you and you have any of your tools in play she needs to act immediately even things like being greedy for pummels will just hinder her in the process in the long run.
 
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In all honesty if the zss is weak against projectiles which a lot us are because she's so tall and doesn't get the same "el oh el I'm holding down to crouch and your missing me with all your projectiles"
Zss's crawl is just slightly higher than pika's crouch.
 
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we still get hit by like everything and pikachu has the Rofl coptor while all we have is down tilt which doesn't last forever xD.
Just saying zss actually crawls under a good amount of projectiles. Now I have not faced any DHD so I don't know what we really crawl under.
 

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Just so we have a picture later, I use them as visual bookmarks!
PROS! (For Doggy)
  • One of the few characters who can outcamp or keep on par with Villager's defensive kit.
  • Gunmen have strict timing to pocket, and pocketing the shot leads to punishes.
  • Very punishable recover.
CONS! (For Doggy)
  • Villager can pocket every projectile.
  • Bowling ball and slingshot make for some of the best edgeguarding in the game.
  • Has the safest (probably) neutral game.
I actually know this MU fairly well, and have fought it quite a few times in Anther's, as well as in tourney. It's basically a huge fight for stage control, and comparable to an elementary school food fight, with so many projectiles.

Stage control is the name of the game. Whoever is offstage is at a super disadvantage (more so Doggy, as opposed to Villy), as the both have very punishable recoveries.

On Doggy's side, he can pretty much out camp Villager, as it becomes very hard to pocket every projectile so quickly. Pocketing Clay Pigeon yields pretty lame results as tossing it back always gives a soft tossed pigeon with no second hitbox, while pocketing the gunmen requires pretty precise timing and can lead to a dash attack punish as Villager's invincibility frames end. Pocketing Trick Shot is most likely Villager's biggest concern, however, as it does not remove Trick Shot from play, allowing Doggy to just summon another one. When Villagers happen to not know this MU, I find almost all of them (at least on their first time) will always toss the can back immediately. Keep in mind, it won't bounce now that it has been pocketed, and just explodes immediately, hurting whoever is near its large blast radius. Also keep in mind Pocket amplifies the power of Trick Shot's knockback, so many villagers end up killing themselves once or twice when the MU is new to them. Experienced Villagers will use pocketed trick shot much better, but it's still a risky game, since at best all you can do with a pocketed can is toss it back to have it explode immediately. It falls so slowly that anyone can shield it, and hurts everyone, so while it's good for removing it from play and protecting yourself, you probably won't be going on the offense with it like a Samus Charge Shot or Thoron.

Villager can outcamp Doggy as well, but only if he get's stage control from the neutral or has Doggy offstage. Lloid does great against Trick Shot and is a better option for using Trick Shot against Doggy, while Tree can be great for sneak attacks and edgeguarding. Don't try to camp behind the tree however, as both Clay Pigeon and Gunmen can hit Villager through the tree, leading to free damage. Slingshot, while can be decent against the Dog, is also blocked by gunmen, especially when staled, so mix-ups are the name of the game for Villy. Once Doggy is off stage, you pretty much have your way with him, just be careful for his disjointed Fair and Trick Shot covered recovery.

I'd give Doggy a 0 in this MU, it's pretty even in my opinion. Both players need stage control to really excel, so whoever understands the intricate game of RoShamBo in this MU of projectiles will most likely win.

Also, @ Shaya Shaya , check out the Adoption Center thread on our stickied forums! We'd be willing to play with ya. I know @ TheWorstMuppet TheWorstMuppet already offered, and I'd extend an invitation as well. Though, it'd have to wait to Monday or Tuesday, I will be away this weekend =[ We'll still be talking about these MU's though, so we've got time!
we still get hit by like everything and pikachu has the Rofl coptor while all we have is down tilt which doesn't last forever xD.
Omg. I will always call this move "the roflcopter" from now on.
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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With Customs on, we become like Pet Shop from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure for the CPS3 Arcade/XBox Live/PS3 (who was actually BANNED from competitive play, as this (http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Pet_Shop) shows! Thankfully, for now, Custom Doggy's technically still legal, and we're nowhere as broken good as Pet Shop is, even with Customs on) while Villager becomes like ChrisG's Morrigan/Doom/Vergil team in Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3.

Villager's deck will likely be 2322 or 1322. I'd personally run 2322 as Villager.

He'll want to Garden your Watering Can more than anything else in your arsenal, because in his Pockets, it becomes a genuine KO explosion that, tbh, it really should be in our paws. Garden is the Vergil assist that you won't see too often upclose. Garden's damage multiplier may NOT be as good as Pocket's, so while he can Garden our Can, its damage output pales in comparison to Pocket's??? (This detail could use some research before fully confirming it) Oh wait, we'll likely be running Zigzag, so the KO explosion part will not be too much of a concern for us. The concern with this move is that it can still Pocket our Zigzag, which will make it difficult for us to reach him at/below the ledge with just Zigzag alone. Thus, you'll likely NOT be seeing plain ol' Pocket, because Garden gives him an extra attack to use against us whenever he doesn't have anything Pocketed. If he lands Garden upclose, a Flower will grow on our head like what Jigglypuff's Rest can do, quickly adding on damage for every half-second that the Flower's on our head. Garden still has Pocket's invincibility frames, but its startup is slower than Pocket's. While Garden's damage building powers are fantastic, it won't KO us, seemingly no matter what our percentage is. The good news for us regarding this move is that if Villager's in the middle of Up B, this move canNOT come out until he either lands from using Up B, reaches the ledge and gets off of it, or recovers from getting hit by us during it.

Pushy Lloid is Morrigan's Soul Fist if it did a bunch of hits, travelled halfway across FD instead of all the way, and pierced through our entire arsenal. Thankfully, it's slow, which makes it easy for us to go around IF Villager's not using it as cover fire for his approaches. If he IS walking WITH Pushy towards you, then it becomes far more threatening, because Pushy can make a surprising amount of his options safe to use, even his slow grab if you block Pushy. Do note that once it travels halfway across the stage, it'll explode on its own, which can & will hit you if you're nearby.

Extreme Balloon Trip is Dr. Doom's Hidden Missiles assist that can also pierce our entire arsenal?? While I would love to test this point on the Wii U version, my access to it is rather limited these days, and the 3DS version does not have the advanced dummy recording features that Melty Blood: Actress Again: Current Code and especially Skullgirls Encore offer in their training modes. This is one of the key components of Custom Villager's ledge camp strategy, for this is the anti-air guard that makes blind jump-ins and rushdowns very risky. As the Custom match shows, the balloons go through the stage while being visually covered up by it, making it hard to keep track of them, and it's a wonderful stage spiker if this blows you up under the ledge. Their movement speed may not be too fast, but their travel arcs vary wildly. If used for edgeguarding, it'll likely be as a last resort for when he's used up all his jumps trying to edgeguard you with his other moves beforen needing to reach the ledge/stage.

Trip Sapling makes us trip upon straying too close to the Sapling. To loosely finish the associations I've made, this would be Astral Vision, which he'll want to have active at all times (at least Villager doesn't talk... XD). This of course allows Villager to follow up with anything he wants, Bowling Ball & Axe included. This is the ground key component of the ledge camp, for it barricades us from simply running towards him. Should Villager try to rush us down with this, its stage presence becomes even bigger as it greatly limits & controls the locations that we can safely move on. This is a fantastic ledge guarding tool that can force specific actions from us that Villager can read/predict for big punishes. Ex. "Exactly on the ledge? Quick get-up option (Moving the stick towards the stage) will get us tripped, so we'll just roll onto the stage--" *cue Bowling Ball upon our end roll spot*
Unlike Bowser Jr, whose Side B can let him safely drive over it, we don't have such an option. Instead, we'll use our entire arsenal to fight from the other side of the Sapling until we can (hit-)confirm an opening, with Zigzag Cans serving as the crux of our loadout.

If he DOES bother to grow the Tree, do NOT hit the Tree with an upclose Melee move, for it'll fight back. Use your arsenal to take it down safely. Of the Axes, Trip's Axe has the lowest KO power & damage output of the 3. Super Timber's Axe deals the most damage, but not as much KO power as default Axe (still more than Trip's Axe).

Combining Trip, Pushy, Extreme, Slingshots, and even Pocket/Garden all make for a sturdy fortress that's hard for even us to get in on. However, that's what our 3123 or 3113 or 3133 decks will help us out with. Of these 3 decks, 3133 or 3123 are what I'd run.

Zigzag Can's payoff in Villager's Pocketed hands is pitiful in comparison to our other Cans. Our gains if we can juggle him with it exceed his Pocket gains. Unlike Jr's Mechakoopas, another Zigzag Can is summonable if Villager Gardens the 1st one. Should the Villager try to make like Brawl Metaknight and try to camp out at the ledge, we can use Zigzag to reach him there. However, this IS Pocketable, even when Garden is used, so we'll probably have to come over there ourselves while we're B-pressing Zigzag. Against the ChrisG/CaptainAwesum strat, great control over Zigzag will be crucial in challenging it, for it's one of the safest moves we have that can reach him under the ledge. Don't blindly focus too much on it, otherwise the Exploding Balloons will sneak up on you through the stage for good damage. I will admit, actually juggling him with this is going to be hard, due to how small, short, and thin he is in comparison to several others in the cast, but if we can at least lift him up with this high enough, we ourselves can close in for our powerful air followups.

Duck Jump Snag is our Wakeup DP that COULD clash with Bowling Ball, but it's untested. It can at least help us escape his juggle strings, should be try to get in on us. It can also help us get back to the stage against his ruthless edgeguarding attempts, provided we don't run into the Exploding Balloons on the way to the ledge and/or miss the anti-stage-spike techs.

Super Duck Jump may not have Snag's active hitboxes, but it has a fast uprising speed to compensate. It may largely move us straight up, but considering how often we might be close below the ledge if we constantly chase Villager there, its lack of horizontal movement can be managed, and it can help mitigate wall-less stages as well. We'll still get Bowling Ball'd easily with this if we fire this up directly below the ledge, so time this carefully & earlier than that point.

Mega Gunmen can stomach plenty of Slingshots and default/Liftoff Lloids, but it'll lose to Pushy Lloids, as the Customs On match vid shows. This MIGHT be the best of the Gunmen to run, considering how powerful of both a spacing & even KO tool his Slingshots are. While I'm tempted to think that "Mega loses to Pushy? Let's run default or Quick instead," we'll want this shield up to ward off Slingshots as we try to close in on his campsite.

Stage selection: I'm not sure how much it matters when Customs are on, but I'd imagine Halberd & Delfino would be terrible places for us, considering how powerful Villager's KO options are in regards to KO-ing us upwards. Dream Land 64 and Town & City might also be iffy picks for us for that reason, but at least if we're sent to those stages with Customs on, we'll have Zigzag on deck. Finding a stage that can hamper with Custom Mayor's CaptainAwesum style would be a boon for us.

I'm really not sure what the ratio for us is with Customs on. I earnestly feel like as if we've only just started investigating the Customs side of this MU, and I myself have yet to personally be on either side of this MU. I also earnestly want to believe that we Custom Doggies have what it takes to beat Custom Mayors. For now, I'm thinking either 0 (generous guess) or -1 (not-so-generous guess) for us. Were we talking about Custom Jr, I'd sooner claim either 0 or +1 for Jr.

I too am OK with switching my vote from Kirby to Pac-Man, because MVD's devastating loss against Abadango's Pac-Man as DH still stings me greatly (though I can at least praise Abadango for a victory well-earned), especially since I've once recommended DH as a legit counterpick to Pac-Man some time ago, most notably because of DH's awesome ability to lame him out upon stealing his Fruit. MVD started off so strong with the Fruit in his mouth... where did he go wrong? *Hasn't seen the match itself in quite a while, plus he was busy with his part-time job while the match was going on* If we ARE going to talk about that MU this week, finding that EVO match would be a good reference to start with.


EDIT: I asked here to confirm whether or not Garden has invincibilty frames: http://smashboards.com/threads/does-pocket-have-invincibility-frames.411396/#post-19735368
According to the folks that have posted in that thread thus far, Garden does indeed have them, but apparently not as many as Pocket does. That point could use some further testing.
 
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TheWorstMuppet

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Edit: Hey! So I was gonna talk about Pac Man yesterday, but there was something funny going on with Smashboards. Sorry 'bout that-- ANYWAY ONTO PACMAN!!

~Pac Man and Duck Hunt star in the much anticipated remake of Oliver & Company. "It's ruff stuff", quote The New Yorker. "Not that great", according to Chucks VHS Emporium...

All of my writings on this are based offa playing my friends Pac Man a bunch. If you disagree with me, please sound off below! I'd love ta hear your thoughts on him.

:4duckhunt:Vs:4pacman:
Pro's for Dogger:
  • Pac Man will keep his distance from Dawg most of the time, allowing for set ups and campiness to ensue.
  • Pac Man is pretty dang slow. His approach options are slightly predictable. IF he approaches, that is...
Con's for Dogger:
  • Pac Mans fruit and fire hydrant can shut down a lot of DH's bag of tricks. Key goes right through everything. There's no stopping it.
  • Pac Man is superior off stage (then again, who isn't) and following him into the air is not advised due to the swiftness of the fire hydrant.
  • It's easier for Pac Man to wall Duck Hunt out than the other way round, I reckon.
  • Edit: Pac Man has less lag on most of his standard attacks including his aerials. Outspeeds Dogs attacks bar down-tilt. Shoutouts to @Pacman9 for setting me straight and sorry for the misinformation.

The fight for control is real here! Both characters are good at keeping the other away and both characters have flaws the other can exploit! Duck Hunt's less-than-stellar recovery and Pac Man's poor grab cooldown spring to mind. Similar again to the Megaman matchup where it's important to learn the length that each projectile can travel, the same is true here. Only you have to deal with the different percents that each fruit will bring. I'll list them below*:

Cherry- 4%, travels about a third of Battlefield.
Strawberry- 6%, travels about halfway across Battlefield.
Orange- 8%, has pretty good knockback, travels about two thirds of the way across Battlefield.
Apple- 9%, has a sharp downward angle when thrown in the air, travels about two thirds of the way across Battlefield.
Melon-12%, moves very slowly, is a good kill fruit at higher percents, travels slowly across the entirety of Battlefield.
Galaxian Boss- 9%, launches opponents, can be regrabbed after it's loop de loop. travels across most of Battlefield.
Bell- 8%, Stuns opponents for a few seconds, has a weird trajectory, travels about a third of Battlefield.
Key- 15%, Huge knockback, great killpower, Once Pac Man reaches this item he has to throw it to restart the cycle, super fast and can cut through all of Duck Hunts traps. Get ready with that shield button and remember what fruit he has in rotation.


All of Pac Mans fruit stops the Clay Pidgeon. The hydrant can take the hit from all the projectiles Duck Hunt throws out, while Pac Man charges up fruit. Try and close the gap between the two of you and get rid of the hydrant. Don't let Pac Man set up.

Offstage is definitely in Pac Man's favour, as Duck Hunt is at the mercy of the fire hydrant during his up-B. You'll have to recover differently here. I like to save my 2nd jump and hug the wall, wall jump and air dodge the hydrant, then proceed to immediately up-B to the edge. Of course, mixing it up is recommended but don't up-B from below unless you're confident that you won't get hit.

"Is there any place in specific to recommend the next MU discussion? I've been having difficulties with Pac Man's side B and how it bounces the Trick Shot back, so some discussion about that match up would be nice in the future." - @ chaos11011 chaos11011

In that instance, I would sit and wait in shield and then punish accordingly. I can't imagine Pac Man getting much milage out of that after one or two tries. Use the can as bait if you're confident that's what he's gonna do. You can just leave the can lying around. That's what I would do, anyway...

My thoughts when playing this match up is play aggressively. Duck Hunts aerials and close up game are better against Pac Man in this instance! Less lag and superior grab-game. Just keep at him. Avoid the hydrant. You should be fine.

I give this match-up a solid 0 to -1 for doggy, seeing as our two projectile amigos are too evenly matched to really stand out. From a long distance/zoning standpoint, I'd give it to Pac Man. For the the close up game, I'd give it to Duck Hunt.

I don't have much experience with the customs side of things for Pac Man. Anyone care to comment on that?

*Percentages taken from Welcome to the Maze, a Pac Man guide.
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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Thanks. I'll be looking forward to the solid answers we'll be bringing here for the DH VS Pac-Man MU. Throughout the last few months I've been coming here, that MU has been on my radar from time to time throughout the other boards here. It'll be nice to finally compile our findings here and possibly reach a firm position. *Will be scouring my own past posts where I spoke of that MU for both review and reference that at this point may require either updates, elaboration, or even renovations*

In the meantime, I would like to share some more tech for fighting Villager: Rush him down hard, and once you get in, stay in for as long as you can. Villager may have a 3 frame juggle-breaking NAir, and both Explosive Balloons and the invincible Garden with Customs, but aside from those, he struggles with escaping hard rushdown. Speaking of his NAir, most of our aerials have quite the disjoint to challenge it with. However, much like Jr, our aerials will generally have to respect his UAir & DAir. Our most reliable part of our arsenal for blocking off non-Pushy Lloids are Gunmen, and our most distant option are Clays. Gunmen are also great for blocking off Slingshots, as are Clays from a distance. Villager won't get to set up (Pushy) Lloids, Trees (or Trip Saplings), and his Slingshot walls very well or for long if we can stay in long enough for him to get a good whiff of our doggy breath. His grab is among the slowest out of everyone (Pac-Man's is just as slow as his), so retreating into shield is more viable against him than against most others (Fox is another person who struggles against our shielding when we're at KO percent). Don't stay in your shield for too long, or he'll BThrow you out the stage at high enough percents.

While tabbing on a certain thread in the Competitive Boards, THEE Captain Awesum showed up at said certain thread, and I'm wanting to call him over here for his input. I'm not sure if it's within my authority to do so, but if it is, then I apologize in advance. Anyways, @CaptAwesum , if you have any intel about Custom Villager (or ZSS or later Pac-Man) that you'd like to share here, we would appreciate your input. While I'm at it, I'd also like to invite @ Croi Croi , for he's had a hype doubles match against a Villager he posted in the Vid thread, so if he wants to, he can help us out with the actual teams (doubles) side of the MU.

The most I can contribute on the teams front is FG Teams, and I'll hopefully get around to it soon. Until then and for now, I've recently saved & submitted 2 replays on the 3DS version of the U.S. FG Teams room with the names "MayorHuntSynergy" & "EscortingTheKing" to serve as references. Kevin Lucario MIGHT take notice of these 2 matches of mine and post them on his YT channel at some point, so if that happens this week, I'll link to them here. If not, I'll link them in the Vid thread. If any of you are looking for Villagers to grind out the FG Teams part of this MU with on FG Anywhere, this will likely be your week to do so, because he's in this week's Conquest on Olimar's team against ROB & Mega Man.
 
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Croi

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I can't really say I know the MU all that well. I just throw out a ****load of projectiles because I know that Villager can only pocket one at a time - I don't care at all if he pockets the clay pigeon and pocketing the gunman's bullet is a mild annoyance, and while the Can can be dangerous, it's not like I can't throw out another one.

If he tries to start ledge camping with his custom set, idgaf and attempt to dsmash him as soon as he regrabs. The first hit will stage spike him, and Exploding Balloons won't have the lift to get him back if he survives, so it'll be easy to capitalize his recovery when he has to burst them.

Assuming defaults, DHD wins the spacing game because Lloid isn't all the threatening when all three of our projectiles stop him. We can throw out a Can and wait for Lloid or a slingshot to hit it, then just crouch behind it since projectiles will only influence the Can once (until we hit it ourselves). Pushy Lloid makes that a little trickier, of course.
 
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Just a bit of speculation here as I haven't unlocked the Exploding Balloons custom yet so I haven't tested it yet: If we're facing a stall Villy, could we space our clay pigeons / default can to land on the ledge to hit him out of it during his non-invicibility frames or is the zigzag can crucial for us to combat the strat?
 
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