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The lovable dinosaur race is finally a huge threat for the entire roster! Gone are the days of being overlooked, the Yoshis have come to bring sunshine and eggs. Lots and lots of eggs. Who will reign supreme?! WHO WILL BE CUTER?!
VS
Pros (For Doggy)
Moves can out-range Yoshi (Fair is still safe).
Smashes out-range Yoshi's.
More Projectiles.
Cons (For Doggy)
Yoshi is faster.
Has many KO options.
Most moves are safe on shield (especially jab, fair and nair).
Eggs interfere with Can and Gunmen.
Eggs have better utility for approach.
Armor on double jump.
Incredibly fast and strong smashes.
This is one of the hardest MU's for me. Even against Yoshi's that are not moderately good, I tend to crumble under fear just from seeing them, because of two primary factors: Eggs and how little end-lag Yoshi has. My only strategy I can advise with Doggy is to camp. Gain the percent lead, and make sure Yoshi has to approach. But, Yoshi still has eggs to deal with campers, which makes it even trickier. My plan of action is usually camp, try to condition them into just coming after doggy, then rack up damage with pivot clays and grabs. Practice your guaranteed combos as well, since Yoshi can easily jump out of any combo starters, thank to his armor. Yoshi still has some weakness off stage, so use that time to set up a can and try to edgeguard. Watch out for eggs when they are coming back, once they use their double jump, they have very few options left besides using Up-B.
This MU is in 's favor, IMO. I would consider a secondary who is faster or can deal with projectiles. I like to use , just to keep pressuring from a safe distance and pocket eggs, not to mention slingshot being very safe for edge-harassing.
Yup. You've pretty much said everything that I was going to say. Camp the dino and DON'T LET US THROUGH! XD Once we get in, it gets really, really ugly for the doggy. Eggs aren't that great of a camping tool, but they can setup for offstage f-airs. Also, if you see us coming at you with a n-air, it's a free shield grab! Just watch for egg lay, its a command grab and works great in the air as a mixup. Your frisbees are very effective for stopping us in our tracks. The can...not so much, 1 egg is all it takes to reverse the trajectory back at you. Alternatively, we can just run IMMEDIATELY into it and YOU get hurt by the explosion too. XD Be unpredictable and you can hold up against Yoshi pretty well. Hope this helps.
The lovable dinosaur race is finally a huge threat for the entire roster! Gone are the days of being overlooked, the Yoshis have come to bring sunshine and eggs. Lots and lots of eggs. Who will reign supreme?! WHO WILL BE CUTER?!
VS
Pros (For Doggy)
Moves can out-range Yoshi (Fair is still safe).
Smashes out-range Yoshi's.
More Projectiles.
Better grab game
Faster aerials
Cons (For Doggy)
Yoshi is faster.
Has many KO options.
Most moves are safe on shield (especially jab, fair and nair).
Eggs interfere with Can and Gunmen.
Eggs have better utility for approach.
Armor on double jump.
Incredibly fast and strong smashes.
Abusable recovery
This is one of the hardest MU's for me. Even against Yoshi's that are not moderately good, I tend to crumble under fear just from seeing them, because of two primary factors: Eggs and how little end-lag Yoshi has. My only strategy I can advise with Doggy is to camp. Gain the percent lead, and make sure Yoshi has to approach. But, Yoshi still has eggs to deal with campers, which makes it even trickier. My plan of action is usually camp, try to condition them into just coming after doggy, then rack up damage with pivot clays and grabs. Practice your guaranteed combos as well, since Yoshi can easily jump out of any combo starters, thank to his armor. Yoshi still has some weakness off stage, so use that time to set up a can and try to edgeguard. Watch out for eggs when they are coming back, once they use their double jump, they have very few options left besides using Up-B.
This MU is in 's favor, IMO. I would consider a secondary who is faster or can deal with projectiles. I like to use , just to keep pressuring from a safe distance and pocket eggs, not to mention slingshot being very safe for edge-harassing.
The only smash Yoshi has that's "incredibly fast and strong" is his usmash, and yet he lacks any way
to hit confirm into it or any other of his kill moves.
You shouldn't be trying to space with Duck Hunt's smashes overly much.
Trying to camp Yoshi is futile, he'll just fly over the spam and deflect cans with his eggs. Instead use
your projectiles to try and get him in the air and then take the fight to him. Your aerials outspeed his fair
and outrange his nair, his double jump is easy to pursue with uair and ground pound can be baited. As for
punishing nairs, don't underestimate your own OOS nair.
Duck Hunt's REAL problem in this match is his recovery, which Yoshi can bat away or stage spike relatively easily.
Alrighty, Yoshi is next!
Look upon the face of no mercy.
The lovable dinosaur race is finally a huge threat for the entire roster! Gone are the days of being overlooked, the Yoshis have come to bring sunshine and eggs. Lots and lots of eggs. Who will reign supreme?! WHO WILL BE CUTER?!
VS
Pros (For Doggy)
Moves can out-range Yoshi (Fair is still safe).
Smashes out-range Yoshi's.
More Projectiles.
Cons (For Doggy)
Yoshi is faster.
Has many KO options.
Most moves are safe on shield (especially jab, fair and nair).
Eggs interfere with Can and Gunmen.
Eggs have better utility for approach.
Armor on double jump.
Incredibly fast and strong smashes.
This is one of the hardest MU's for me. Even against Yoshi's that are not moderately good, I tend to crumble under fear just from seeing them, because of two primary factors: Eggs and how little end-lag Yoshi has. My only strategy I can advise with Doggy is to camp. Gain the percent lead, and make sure Yoshi has to approach. But, Yoshi still has eggs to deal with campers, which makes it even trickier. My plan of action is usually camp, try to condition them into just coming after doggy, then rack up damage with pivot clays and grabs. Practice your guaranteed combos as well, since Yoshi can easily jump out of any combo starters, thank to his armor. Yoshi still has some weakness off stage, so use that time to set up a can and try to edgeguard. Watch out for eggs when they are coming back, once they use their double jump, they have very few options left besides using Up-B.
This MU is in 's favor, IMO. I would consider a secondary who is faster or can deal with projectiles. I like to use , just to keep pressuring from a safe distance and pocket eggs, not to mention slingshot being very safe for edge-harassing.
This matchup I don't have much experience in, but I played a pretty decent DHD over wifi a few weeks back. Yoshi has the +1 advantage, as DHD does have the tools necessary to camp yoshi out; the problem is once Yoshi gets in, he has a hayday on the dog duck couple.
Stages I would suggest for DHD would be long flat stages, FD and Duck hunt. While Yoshi would excel on these stages normally (being my usual counterpicks), I believe the doggy benefits much more to out-camp Yoshi. Small, or platformed stages gives Yoshi the ability to get in quickly and limits the ability for DHD to set up great projectile game. Yoshi is able to use platforms more effectively and give him a better way to approach DHD from above and below the platforms.
DHD's projectile game is very strong, clay pigeon pivots and gunmen make it hard to approach on the ground, while the explosive can is able to catch Yoshi in the air (and creates space up close as well). Yoshi's egg toss is good, I don't think it is as effective as DHD's. The usual course of approach for yoshi is SH ET,so you can stand your ground, or run underneath and then punish.
Up close, yoshi excels with OoS nair and fast jabs. Our nair is not safe on shield, and Fair is safe if only properly spaced at the very tip. Fair does have a windup, so you can usually just get away/can if yoshi gets close. Keep in mind yoshi's egg lay, it is a command grab that can lead to Upsmash/Down B follow up, but should rarely kill if you dodge upon exit. It is not as effective if DHD has all his projectiles setup, but be wary of the move if yoshi gets close.
DHD may have a harder time KO'ing yoshi, but his projectiles can quickly rack up damage. Do not let yoshi get close, and keep setting up your projectiles. Good luck!
Yoshi gives my Duck Hunt a lot of trouble, but I consider him a lot more beatable than the other high-tier characters.
Like other characters that can close distance quickly and safely, Yoshi can really capitalize on the lag that comes with a lot of the dog's projectiles. If you get too sloppy with the pigeons or gunmen, he'll nair right through it and be up in your grill just like that. His air moves also string together so nicely that it's very hard to follow up on landed hits if you're not super precise. And if I had a dollar for every time I've tried to punish a whiffed Yoshi Uair only to find myself locked immediately in a dair...well, I'd probably only have like 5 dollars, but still. That dair eats me alive if I try to Uair him like I do other characters.
That being said, the dog has so much control over the general momentum of the match. Focusing on early chip damage is key, because if you can get the lead then you can get him chasing you around and it's a lot easier to read a Yoshi that's in full pursuit.
Yoshi's armored jump stumped me to the point that I would just give the player the edge most times, because I was dying too often if I tried to contest offstage. However, I love getting a baired can out there, if only to give them something to think about as they approach the edge. Weird things happen sometimes when the can hits that superarmor, and you can also potentially bait out an airdodge to punish.
@WispBae
mentioned using Villager as a counter, which I like, but I think a lot of the strategy for winning that matchup with Villager also applies to the dog. Villager has the quickness advantage but Duck Hunt forces the Yoshi to act quicker themselves. Yoshi has the clear advantage in my eyes but certainly not so much that I feel I need to change characters.
Thanks to @DragN
, @meleebrawler
, @GSM_Dren
and @Aaryk
for the input on the Yoshi MU! I will be updating the info on him soon, and the general feeling the the MU is in Yoshi's favor.
Agree on the MU being in favor of Yoshi? The whole numerical value thing has always bothered me, how does one measure how hard it is to deal with? So instead I'd like to do 2 questions. Who the MU is in favor of and is it worth switching characters.
So for me it would be yes, switch characters. Thoughts?
NEXT VOTE FOR CHARACTER
Shiek
RosaLuma
Diddy Kong
Unless anyone else has problems with anyone else that we'd like to discuss first. DeDeDe has personally always given me issues, though it may just be my playstyle. I think we should hold off on discussion for now since the patch is coming soon, but if you all would like to start thinking about it, so we can do some more chit chatting later!
Thanks to @DragN
, @meleebrawler
, @GSM_Dren
and @Aaryk
for the input on the Yoshi MU! I will be updating the info on him soon, and the general feeling the the MU is in Yoshi's favor.
Agree on the MU being in favor of Yoshi? The whole numerical value thing has always bothered me, how does one measure how hard it is to deal with? So instead I'd like to do 2 questions. Who the MU is in favor of and is it worth switching characters.
So for me it would be yes, switch characters. Thoughts?
NEXT VOTE FOR CHARACTER
Shiek
RosaLuma
Diddy Kong
Unless anyone else has problems with anyone else that we'd like to discuss first. DeDeDe has personally always given me issues, though it may just be my playstyle. I think we should hold off on discussion for now since the patch is coming soon, but if you all would like to start thinking about it, so we can do some more chit chatting later!
Yea the MU is definitely in Yoshis favor. Although it's not impossible to use can against Yoshi and to punish his moves precisely with caution, it's extremely difficult due just to the amount of skill you have to have to try to correctly place your projectile so it'll hit Yoshi. Yoshi almost always gets rid of our projectile just with his air game alone. In my opinion it's probably best to switch characters, preferably I've heard shiek does great against Yoshi because she has the speed to punish him and go for edgeguards.
Okie dokie, it seems like a majority of players want to discuss Sheik next, so let's get to it!
SHEIK THE SWIFT NIN... wait a minute...
THERE, THAT'S THE RIGHT SHEIK!
Sheik, the swift ninja from Ocarina of time, continues to be a crowd favorite for her combo ability, impeccable agility and wields more sharp objects than a surgeon! Will the doggy heel to this speedy mistress, or will the Sheikah see a defeat by the hands of a mutt... and bird... and cowboys?
VS
PROS (FOR DOGGY)
Disjointed attacks help with keep away (fair pretty much always wins in mid-air against her fair).
Clay pigeon eats uncharged needles and trades with charged needles.
Trick Shot Can controls some space and stops her from being able to zip all over for free.
CONS (FOR DOGGY)
Sheik outspeeds a ton of the cast, including doggy.
Plenty of KO options compared to doggy.
Needles and speed give her a better neutral game.
Can juggle doggy for days, even weeks.
Trick Shot Can is still somewhat easy for her to get rid of, as well as gunmen.
Although this should be a fairly bad MU for Doggy, I've yet to fight any super hard Sheiks in person. Most sheiks I've fought either don't play her well or autopilot and are very predictable with bouncing fish and the combos they use. So I honestly can't talk about the MU too well in my experience. However, I do think Sheik has the advantage, and would recommend switching or camping. Having a secondary for speedy characters is very useful, I feel, for doggy, especially since Sheik can reliably control the speed of a match with great standards and good projectiles. The one thing I have noticed with Sheik is she is quite vunerable off stage, having a fast fall speed and not many options for mix-ups if there are no walls to cling on. I will often run off stage with a sour-spot fair, and most of them can't do anything to recover, since it sends at too shallow of an angle. If you are the one off-stage however, you are going to have a rough time with needles, grenades and ledge trump to Bairs. Again, however, someone with better experience of the MU should speak more in-depth about it; I don't feel like I know enough about it.
Well Sheik's Bair was nerfed so the risk of stage spikes is less, but still there
The key to fighting Sheik is to never lose your cool. Sheik may have more reliable KO moves
but almost all of them require reads of some sort and can leave her open if they miss. Even Bouncing
Fish if you sidestep. Just take the match slow and steady and you can come out on top.
It's all about rushing down down DHD. I actually commented ^further up^ talking about the DHD match up.
From what I understand DHD thrives when he gets momentum, getting hit once can lead to a world of hurt. Though because his recovery leaves him quite open every Sheik player will go for the punish making the match pretty good for Sheik. DHD has to throw out all his goods if he wants to protect himself of stage.
Here are a few MU's I think are harder for Doggy, unless someone would like to talk about another one? I'm still up for DeDeDe. Also, talking about the intricacies of each stage I think would be good to add to the weekly discussions, so I would like to add stage voting to each week as well.
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
My votes would be for either Fox (or DeDeDe) and Battlefield.
I'm up for either RosaLuma or Fox, those ones are pretty tricky. Though I haven't faced a Dedumde yet so I'd like to learn more about how to fight one too. Any of those three.
Also, for stage choice, it be cool to know whether Battlefield or FD is better against fast characters.
I honestly believe the sheik matchup is no worse than 60/40. What I do is trade out of combos for example if Sheik jabs you or Bouncing Fish offstage you can time the can to trade and actually put you in a better position. Keep sheik out as much as you can & utilize all your projectiles to make it a hurdle to approach you then if she does manage to get past do your best to always have some sort of space, reset to neutral or trade with your can to reset. Offstage of is bad so try to get back but like I said I'd they swipe too hard you can trade with the can & go back to the stage.
I would vote for a RosaLuma discussion next, if only because that's one of my favorite difficult matchups as Duck Hunt and I feel I have some good insight on that one. I also have a lot to say about Dedede whenever we get to that.
I prefer Battlefield against speedy characters, currently. I used to pick FD or an omega against a quick opponent because I wanted the space to be able to retreat and rebuild the wall, but I now see how that open space gives my opponent lots of opportunity to exploit the angles that Duck Hunt has a hard time defending. Obviously, this depends on the matchup, and if I'm CPing I'd only go to Battlefield if T&C and Halberd have both been banned. But the platforms of Battlefield carry many more benefits for my style than the space of FD.
Luma, the dreaded destroyer of stars, has invaded the doghouse. Packing the ability to respawn infinitely, will the dogs be able to fend off the invaders from space?!!?!?exclamation point.
VS
PROS (FOR DOGGY)
Projectiles out range Luma's.
Speed is on par with Luma's.
Nullifying projectiles means suffering down B endlag, open for punishment.
CONS (FOR DOGGY)
Can nullify projectiles.
Better at juggling.
Disjointed moves (Uair, Dair).
Fast and safe KO options.
While many doggies find this MU to be fustrating, I personally don't mind it, it just takes a lot of patience. This is a campy MU for both of them, Luma wanting only safe options and Doggy wanting to wall Luma out. The key to winning this MU is good mix-ups between projectile play and pokes. Doggy can knock Luma off stage safely with gunmen and dash attack, leaving him to deal with Luma's shadow in a much safer way. Luma's shadow always wants Luma nearby, and will usually just run away or go for grabs until Luma comes back. While gravitational pull is a good option for stopping projectiles, it can be punished with baited projectiles (gunmen or cans) and easily punished.
With good projectiles baits and knowing when to poke, this MU is not too bad honestly. Just stick with safe options, Luma is very good at punishing unsafe choices. It really comes down to who knows their spacing better and who has the best mindgames.
Gunmen's shots can't be absorbed, as such they can't be used to bait Gravitational pull. Also any Rosalina would ever resort to grab unless it's guaranteed, but rather abuse hitbox altetations and platform camping, now I can't really speak for the bruh of the dog's platform pressure, but hurtbox alterations are a pretty important parts of dealing with spacing.
Simply put, basically everything can easily throw Luma offstage but hardly ever anything can deal with the ball when he's flying around. Same goes for the taller Peach. As well any move with a start-up as high as the Dinamite or the random shooter can induce a shield and either ends with a Nair in the face for a uphill challenge or a far one for a nigh-unpunishable one, this is when Gravitational Pull can't be safe because of distance.
Aside from that, what's left is basically
Sparky and Rosebeautiful have as well heavy edgeguarding skillz
Due to her size and lack of speed, Rosalina falls into that group of characters that Duck Hunt has a ton of options against. Her gravitational pull can be annoying and make the match kind of boring, but as @WispBae
stated above, if you can keep your mix-up game strong, it can be easily baited and is much easier to punish than the constant shielders, for example.
It is also very rewarding, to me at least, that if Rosalina shields a clay pigeon or the can, it will still damage the Luma - it eliminates a lot of the benefits of having the Luma there as a meat shield, and catching it in the flurry of zapper shots means Rosa will have to leave it behind if she wants to attempt to punish the lag of our B moves.
Another bonus for the dawg in this matchup is how friggin light Rosalina is. Any help we can get in the realm making it easier to finish a stock is super, obviously. Doggy's Uair and Utilt will end her at ridiculous percentages.
The big advantage Rosa has in this MU is offstage (wow gr8 point right, character X is better than Duck Hunt offstage). Since she has that disjointed Dair, as well as the Nair/Fair circle of life, she can blow right through you when you're trying to recover. Keeping a can out in front while you Up-B back to the stage won't put her off guard like it does other characters.
Custom Rosa is super tough and requires a lot more precision in your game, especially if they have that Luma Warp setup down. I don't have a ton of experience playing against Rosa with customs so I might have just been put off guard the two times I did, but that adjustment was not easy.
Or if anyone else want to talk another character. I got bopped by a Captain Falcon recently, though I don't think it's because he wins the MU by a ton, but a poor decision on my part (switching to Villager). Still, if there's anyone else, feel free to post em. Here are the big "problem" MU's for Duck Hunt as of late.
It's unfortunate this thread keeps periodically falling by the wayside, because we have some knowledgeable players who come through our character forum. I admittedly keep forgetting that Smashboards exists, real life has been kicking my *** lately. That being said, I'm going to dive in and try to have the initiative that @WispBae
and others have shown with advancing our character's meta.
Captain Falcon would be my vote, if we can actually create a larger discussion on the MU. Cap tends to exacerbate my bad habits more than any other character, and I regularly leave matches against him feeling like I just played the stupidest game of my life.
If we want to save that discussion for a more active time in this thread, I have a lot of experience against ZSS and I'm always down to talk Dedede too.
Or if anyone else want to talk another character. I got bopped by a Captain Falcon recently, though I don't think it's because he wins the MU by a ton, but a poor decision on my part (switching to Villager). Still, if there's anyone else, feel free to post em. Here are the big "problem" MU's for Duck Hunt as of late.
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LET'S DISCUSS FALCON. Falcon is by far my hardest and most embarrassing downfall of all falling for the knee set ups and uterrly getting destroyed in the neutral just with a simple dash+power shield. Considering that falcon is THE most played character in the game I think we should discuss him. Constantly getting harassed by his dash mindgames so he can go in for the grab and rack up about 40% really urks me. I haven't had any other trouble with any other character in the game except for falcon.
I'm not sure if I should mention this in this thread since its the MU thread, or in the General Discussion thread... but the ROB boards are discussing Duck Hunt in our Matchup Discussion, and we'd really appreciate any input you guys can provide!
We will be discussing the CF MU (hopefully soon), but out dear amigo Spirst is going to be helping reform the MU thread, to make it much more clean and have a better format. I'm sorry my thread has been so messy, but Spirst is excellent at flipping houses forums!
Though while we reform, we can go a bit in-depth about the great Captain. Won't do the whole elaborate jokey pics and stuff for now.
Pros (For Doggy)
Huge target, very easy to hit.
Good weight for comboing.
Always forced to approach.
Cons
Easy combo material for CF.
Better KO options.
Can exert lots of pressure easy.
I'll let someone else start with their first impressions, since I always start them first. =]
My impression on this match up is 40:60 in favor of Cap, very hard match up but not unwinnable. In terms of of the neutral game it is very hard to get any projectiles up because of Cap's speed. Every one of Duck Hunt's projectiles can be punished and when I mean punish I mean Cap will PUNISH you. The main thing you want to do is get a little bit more than a roll distance away from him, this will make his approach, if it wasn't already, more predictable. I usually start off the match aggressive, not letting my opponent get a chance to put me at a disadvantage, plus it's nice to see their faces when they see an aggressive Duck Hunt. Your aerials will save you in this match up a lot, do not rely on your projectiles unless you have space to perform them. Well spaced Fairs and autocanceled Bair will get Cap to back off a little bit and once that happens wall him out with projectiles. Throw out a gunman and wait for your opponent's reaction. If your opponent shields or is shielding grab them, if they jump there are multiple things you can do such as Fair, RAR Bair, Clay Pigeon, and Can. You will have to rely on your skills a lot more in this match up, but once you get some breathing room take full advantage of it. CAPitalize!!
So fer starters, as of right now, this is my least favourite match-up. I hafta remember not to start off the match with a gunman anymore, as Falcon will just run right past it and grab me. I've taken to throwing the can out and hiding in shield for a good amount of time, trying to get Falcon off the edge. Once he's offstage, it gets a bit easier to deal with him. His recovery isn't the best.
But then again, neither is ours.
Mixing up recovery getting back up on stage is so crucial here. Having the can next to me while flying back towards the edge doesn't give me much comfort anymore... neither does recovering low. I end up landing somewhere different each time I make it back.
I agree so much with Perris on this, keeping a smidge of space between you and Falcon is mucho important-o. And never underestimate the distance of his forward-smash! That elbow goes for miles!
But yeah, Falcon wins this match-up most of da time.
Everyone, please thank @Spirst for helping us clean up the front of the thread, and hopefully now our discussions and findings will be more organized! Please offer up your power pellets, blue ghosts and rare candies to him!
If you haven't yet read the first couple post of the thread, please do, as it has helpful tips on discussions and how we will be talking about them!
We'll be discussing 3 MU's a week. For the first 4 weeks, we'll have to catch up on the previously stated MU's (Yoshi, Sonic, RosaLuma and Sheik), but once we do, we'll be doing 2 "top tier" or harder MU's, and 1 quirkier (though not necessarily "hard) MU, to keep things interesting. But until we catch up, the first 4 weeks will be a revisit to a previous MU, a new harder MU, and a quirky MU.
(jeez how many times have I said MU, am I a bomb Pikmin or something?)
Anyways, the first week starts Monday, where we will be talking about Sonic, Captain Falcon, and one more MU. If anyone has suggestions for the quirky MU, let me know, and I'll add it to the schedule. Otherwise, I'll just choose one at (almost) random.
edit: The schedule is up, the question marks are up for suggestion (or voting)! Check the first post!
Also, we will be re-discussing these MU's just to help score them with our FANCY NEW SCORING SYSTEM (read that in a bellowing, echo-y voice).
For Week 1's Quirky MU, I'd like to suggest , since there was at least 2 people earlier in this thread in this very page that was wanting to talk about that MU. I don't find it to be that hard of an MU, for if you block off Gordos with your arsenal (your quickest option being Gunmen, the most stable option being Cans, and the substitute option being Clays for when both are gone or not yet set up to be in-between you & him when his Gordo comes out), he loses one of his key approach moves, and thus can be lamed out. I have sent a replay in the 3DS U.S. FG FFA/Smash room under the Mii name Sploosh called "HowCanKingGetIn?" showcasing how hard it can be for the King to get in once I've set up my fortress of projectiles and, contrary to my aggro rushdown MO, run away while maintaining my fortress, only really going in once I've confirmed a hit to maximize my punishes. It's one of the few MUs where aggressive rushdown CAN work, yet going with the public perception of being a campy runaway character just straight up works better. For TheWorstMuppet's & Wispy's sake, he's who I'd like to recommend.
So, our first MU talks will be about Captain Knee, Sanic.exe and The Penguin with a hammer. I'll invite other character boards over, one day at a time, to help talk about these MU's. Feel free to ask for a sparring match with some of them if you need a refresher on the MU!
(Pictured above: Captain Falcon)
VS
Pros (For Doggy)
Relatively large target, easy to hit.
Heavy weight and fall speed makes combos easier.
Weak offstage game (recovery + fall speed).
No projectiles, able to outcamp (also a riskier neutral game).
Cons (For Doggy)
Many combos and set ups into kill moves (like seriously, if he look at you the wrong way, you lose a stock).
Very fast., keeps up pressure easy.
Makes combo food out of everyone.
This MU is very polarizing. It's either one side getting creamed or the other. They both rack up damage crazy easy, but Falcon wins this by having many more KO set-ups and moves available to him. Keeping a can out in the neutral is vital for keeping him away, and the only way you are going to KO him is through a hard-read or offstage. Although u-air, followed by fair can frame trap him, due to his fall speed. While this MU is in Falcon's favor, due to how polarizing the MU can be, I don't think a switch is actually necessary. It would help, but you could pull through with doggy on this. You'd just have to play Doggy to his absolute best and keep him away from you.
My score for doggy: -2, switching characters may help, I'd go Kirby for this one.
Keeping him offstage is simpler compared to other MU's.
The Captain ain't got no projectiles, so reflecting the can back happens much less often.
Dog is short, so some of Falcon's attacks can whiff right over his head (if dog ducks, or has just landed!)
Cons (For our main daaawg)
If Falcon can get right up in our face and stay there, there ain't much we can do besides blow ourselves up!
Landing back onstage from above can be terrifying for Duck Hunt, specially with the Captains up-air of doom. Again, there isn't much we can do if the pressure is being applied here.
Don't underestimate the length of the Captain's F-Smash. It stretches from here to eternity!
If you're not mixing up your recovery back on stage, Falcon can easily stomp/backhand you. Also, Falcon's uptilt can spike you straight down at the edge (which is easier to do on Duck Hunt than other characters.)
Falcon's running-grab teeters on the edge of forever! So much so that he can just ignore the gunmen half the time and snatch you.
Falcon can kill you earlier than you can kill him, especially if rage is in effect. I can't tell you how many times I've lost a match and Falcon's sitting at a pretty toasty 180%...
Like Wispy said, this match tends to be one-sided for either character. If Duck Hunt can pick up momentum in laying down traps, set-up his she-can-igans and fluster the opponent, the match-up seems easy. However, if Falcon stays up in your grill, doesn't lose sight of you and doesn't let you do anything, it can be sooo difficult to come back from. When this happens, I tend to switch to Dedede.
Stage Picks:
I usually aim for Smashville for this match-up and stay the heck away from Duck Hunt. I used to pick Battlefield, but the platforms end up snagging my can and gunmen more often than I'd like. Duck Hunt seems like the worst choice to me, as I always blow myself up from hitting surprise ducks in the grass.
I pick Smashville for the additional options for the can and the extra space to run if things get too dicey!
My score for the daaaaawg: -2.
Additional Note- If the opponent is playing a more cautious Falcon I'd say stick with the pup. Otherwise, switch if possible!
Before I begin, I would like to link to a tournament match vid of this MU here as a reference, if that's okay to do here:
Match Vid reference #1, featuring MVD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPszKZ1IvVY
VS
Pros for us:
Falcon absolutely HAS to approach us, nearly 24/7, since he has no projectiles and we do. If he's not "getting in", he's in trouble.
Once he's off-stage, we generally have it quite easy in regards to edgeguarding him, especially when the Can's involved.
He's a heavy & tall fastfaller, so he can definitely be juggled easily.
Cons for us:
We're lighter than he is. He doesn't have to rack up as much damage on us as he would have to against someone like Charizard before going for his numerous KO moves.
Once he "gets in", which is quite likely, given his overall movement speed, escaping from him becomes quite difficult when the Can's already out and away from the both of you, as well as him being far enough for your panic NAirs to whiff or airdodges to be punished.
Conversely, his ability to juggle you is superb, as is the damage he builds & even the KOs he can get from doing so.
From the outset, this MU appears to be 45:55 or worse in Falcon's favor, since he's got a plethora of reliable KO moves in comparison to you, and he's got faster overall movement speed than you, making it hard to lame him out. He's surprisingly heavy, so if you're looking to KO him with UTilt, you've gotta wait until 160+% for it to be reliable (possibly higher than that if the Falcon properly DI-s it or if you've staled it or both). You're also lighter than he is, so he doesn't need to rack up as much % on you before KO-ing you, especially if he's at 100+%.
Allow me to state this upfront: You've gotta know how to fight upclose as the dog. While you can probably get away with not knowing how to do so against someone like Bowser or Ganondorf, Falcon will likely get in on you often enough to force you to fight upclose, due to his sheer air and especially ground speed, as well as his Falcon Kick piercing Gunmen, Cans, and even Clays, so you've gotta be prepared to take the fight to him directly. Whether or not you'll be comfy fighting upclose may depend on how much of a defensive player you normally are. Personally, as an aggressive rushdown player that has played Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, Melty Blood, and other offense-happy fighters, this comes naturally to me. He is one of those characters that will require you to fight differently than you would against many others. Falcon actually reminds me of Linne & Seth from Under Night In-Birth EXE:Late, and Duck Hunt reminds me of Hilda & Vatista from UNIBEL... At least if you're looking to practice this MU in FG Anywhere, you probably won't have to wait too long, considering how frequently he appears online.
Respect his movement speed; One powershielded or dodged Clay and he'll straight up run in for a big punish. Especially if they're blindly thrown, AND if neither Can or Gunmen are out to cover you once he DOES get in. Falcon will approach you anyways, so try to set up Gunmen at least before he comes. Once he's close enough, try to melee him yourself. It'll be a slugfest that DH CAN hang in there doing. Walling him out may not be easy, and if you can't seem to do so, go as aggro as he does. You may have to go without your projectiles for a bit if customs are off until the percent's high enough for your Jab and tilts and aerials to create breathing space.
FAir and DTilt will be among your best friends in this fight, as will (default) Cans and Jab (particularly the multi-jab ender). Your FAir outranges all of Falcon's aerials, and it can even be used against some of his ground moves. You can throw out FAir twice in a single full jump, whether retreating or advancing, depending on whether you use C-Stick for aerials or not. Your 6-frame DTilt lowers your profile to help you counterattack some of his moves. While his jab is faster than yours, at least your 4-frame jab can confront his other moves. If Can's not already out, then if you're caught up in a string, be ready to sacrifice your own percent by bringing it out to get him off of you. Depending on percentages, you may be able to act out of your hitstun faster than he can, so you can sneak in UAir or sweetspot NAir or BAir for the KO.
Unless you're in the middle of fastfalling NAir, you've got to respect his UAir. Not only does it beat some of your aerials, his UAir can KO like yours can, and builds great damage before that as well.
I've got various notes jotted from equally various rounds of FG 1v1 (finding any Falcon player there doesn't take too long, so if you're looking for just about any player to grind this MU out against, regardless of that player's skill level & MU experience, you COULD go there...) & other settings (including sparring sessions with the 2nd youngest bro (I'm the youngest) who mains him, as well as the viewing of in-game posted replays and actual tournament matches), and I'm not entirely sure how to go about organizing them, so I'll just spill 'em as is, if that's okay to do. Some of these MAY be repeats of what I've already mentioned earlier:
Openings can be punished with Clays into multi FAirs
Escape moves: NAir, Jab, DTilt, Can, Gunmen (if out already), FAir, BAir, UAir, Clay?
Jab, while 1 frame slower, CAN help challenge some of his moves. Does decent shield pressure, yet if held long enough, can push back Falcon enough for his DTilt to miss.
Jab can clank with Falcon Kick
If he makes it to 166+%, UTilt will KO him, as well as Mashed Jab Ender at slightly later percents.
Multi Jab Ender -> UAir is a legit juggle at low-mid %
FSmash can challenge and even beat Falcon Kick.
Moves to look for from him: Falcon Kick (Beats Can, non shot up Clay, but not Gunmen's shots) (If you're not in the middle of throwing out any projectiles, this move is definitely manageable. If you come down on it when it ends (and thus canNOT hit you), you can punish with FSmash)
Raptor Boost (Gunmen can stuff this if he's not out already. Read one of these? Stick out the Gunmen to make him RB him and not you, allowing you to punish him. Clays and Cans will also do it, but you'll need more distance for those to be reliable. Is he close enough for Can & Clays to fail, and your Gunman's already KO'd? Try DTilt to safely trigger his uppercut early, or if you're desperately seeking the KO, UTilt when he's at 160+%)
UAir (Your DAir will probably lose to it, but maybe your NAir will challenge it?)
Having Gunmen consistently out there is good. Deters Raptor Boosts and they can protect you from grabs and juggles.
Try sticking out DTilt to bait out RB safely for a punish.
You CAN punish Raptor Boost with UTilt, and UTilt can KO reliably at 160+% without rage. Of course, him lasting to that point, whose already fantastic KO power gets even better at that point, is a frightening proposition.
At the start of your opponent's new stock, crawl over to the edge with your back facing it, and setup Gunmen & Can there to drain the invincibility timer as much as possible. Once he's close to you (which will happen pretty quickly), get ready for evasive maneuvers (ex. jumps, rolls, airdodges, walljumps if the Omega is walled, etc.) until the invincibility wears off.
Can is best projectile for getting him off of you if the Can's not already out there.
Get in for grabs when you can. Easiest if Falcon sits in shield when Gunman's out. DThrow to aerials when you get a grab (ala Luigi).
Falcon Kick & FSmash are moves to watch out for. FSmash's range is ridiculously far. Makes Ganondorf's FSmash look short by comparison.
Falcon Kick pierces ALL of the Dog's default projectiles
Dog's light. Once Falcon gets in, he doesn't need to pile on TOO much damage. He's got many reliable KO moves
Dog UAir can challenge Falcon Kick if Dog approaches from the other side of the Kick (as in, where the fire is not present)
Respect Falcon's UAir unless you're air dodging or fast falling w/ NAir
Land a full shot-up Clay? Follow up as best as you can. Tippered FAirs are one way. Sweetspot NAirs are another.
Super upclose Clays when Falcon's not in the middle of an attack is risky.
Poke with Jab, DTilt, (reverse) FTilt, FAir (2 of these in 1 jump is cool. Especially after 1 full Clay shot)
Dog FSmash can lower his profile, protecting him from some of Falcon's moves (ex. Non-angled-down FSmash??, Run-up grabs) and allowing you to counterattack. Falcon's Dash Attack can hit you after this??
Catch him distracted by your stuff? Go in for the punish.
Caught in mashed jab string? DI & Jump outwards. Make sure to remember whether or not you've spent your 2nd jump already.
Near the edge at 100+%, Dog's FSmash CAN KO w/out good DI on the Falcon's part. This is probably your earliest KO option you have that's not DAir spiking or Can+Yourself edgeguarding.
Falcon trying to DAir spike you? Without Up 2? Try sticking out a preemptive UAir to challenge it. Can is optional and handy, as is Gunmen. If the stage you're on is a Walled Omega stage or the normal Duck Hunt stage, you can try to bait it out with a wall-jump and then (air)dodge away from it or challenge it with UAir.
Falcon's FSmash can hit limbs, and apparently, the duck during your FTilt counts as a limb.
Falcon misses a tech? OTG him with Dash Attack or DTilt or FTilt or Jab Lock him into FSmash
Edge guarding him with Can is highly recommended. Even with Up 2, his linear recovery makes him easy pickings for Can + Gunmen + Yourself setups
Expect Falcons to chase you offstage for DAir spikes and the Knee. If there's a wall in the stage you're on (Walled Omegas, Duck Hunt, even Castle Siege), you can use wall-jumps to bait those edgeguard moves out and either dodge them or even outprioritize them with UAir or other moves.
Dog KO moves: UAir, Sweetspot NAir, BAir, DAir spike, UTilt, Smashes, Can. Add FAir when edgeguarding (deep). If I've missed one, let me know.
I myself have posted at least 1 replay of this MU in both the 3DS and Wii U versions in the U.S. FG 1v1 sections with the intent of providing a hopefully helpful reference, and I've probably uploaded a replay or two in both versions of FG Anywhere Else where I was DH when Falcon showed up. If they're not up, and you want to see them, do let me know, so I can re-upload them on the world servers.
Customs Loadouts:
DH should probably be running 3122 or 3121 or 2122 or 2121 or 1122 or 1121. Of those decks, 3122 & 1122 might be the most likely. 2122 COULD work, but it might be inferior to the other 2 possibly preferred decks. I'd personally recommend 1122, because Down 2 will be your fastest and most lagless projectile of the 3, so you can actually poke him with it. Sure you'll lose one of your avenues of free grabs, but I would think having a distant "get-off-me" move would be a more valuable option. Up 2 is your upclose "get-off-me" move that you can Guard Cancel into Out of Shield, and it also denies him his spikes when you've spent your 2nd jump & UAir, and are stuck recovering. MVD in that match I linked to definitely made a solid case for using default Can, which the commentators have claimed to be a solid "Anti-Falcon Recovery" tool. I do wonder if the mighty Zigzag Can would work well in this MU...
Default Clay, for all its flaws, might be the best of the Clays to use here. Clay Break is inconsistant as all can be, and Rising Clay's damage is too low to be worthwhile (even though it COULD be combined with Down 2 for an attempt at being like Sagat or Astral Vision!UMVC3!Morrigan minus Hidden Missiles). If Rising Clay's worth considering for this MU despite that, do let me know.
Falcon will probably be running 2222 or 2221 or 2121 or 2122. 2121 might suffice for him, for his Up 2 is a better recovery move that can also potentially guard him against you and the Can, and his Neutral 2 grants him a more distant hype punish option. Side 2 MIGHT be considered as a way to get through your arsenal, but I'd imagine that Down 1 and possibly Down 2 already does that fine enough, so Side 1 might stick around.
Stage picks: As DH, take him to walled Omegas if possible, even though the walls allow both you & him to recover easier, which can lead to deeper edgeguards. You could also try Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, and other stages with platforms, so Falcon's approach options become limited, since going straight in becomes harder with platforms getting in the way of his aerial approaches. If such an idea can work for Robin, perhaps it can work for us too?
Don't let Falcon take you to Halberd or Delfino. The low ceiling buffs his already fantastic KO power even further. Try not to go to Duck Hunt or Castle Siege either, since Siege's 1st transformation with the walk-offs and DH's ducks & grass and the 8-bit DH make your attempts to lame him out even harder than it already is.
If this MU still seems hard enough for DH to not win this comfortably, even with customs on, perhaps a character switch is in order? would make a nice mid-ish tier candidate, especially with 3322 or 3321 or 3121 or 3122 or 3221 or 3222, and with 1313 if you're looking for a low-tier answer. I agree with picking as well, since he can duck under a bunch of moves (possibly to the extent of ), and with customs on, he gets to run 3231 or 3233. There's always the myriad of top-tiers you could sell out with if you choose to....
I'd score this -2 as well, but that's without customs and with the traditional defensive approach. -1 for without customs and with the aggressive rushdown style. With customs on, I'd say 0 at least.
Alright, SANIC is next! Anyone can feel free to keep talking CF, for the rest of the week, as well as DeDeDe, so don't worry.
"What is my life even..."
VS Pros (For Doggy)
Projectile games stops almost all of sonic's moves and forces him to play doggy's game.
Moves outrange sonic's (except for his spooky f-smash).
Cons (For Doggy)
The fastest character.
Can reset the game to neutral by fleeing, extremely hard to punish many moves due to speed.
Kill throw and more set ups for KO moves.
Can act out of Up-B.
I tend to be disagree with most other doggy mains when I say I don't think Sonic is the worst MU. It's no cakewalk, certainly, but Doggy does have the tools to deal with him, should you be patient.
Small story, there is a sonic main nearby me who I was dreading fighting. He told me after the match (I won 2-0) that he was sure Duck Hunt is a great choice against sonic, and was actually also dreading fighting me. So, it's an odd mix of opinions surrounding the MU. It seems everyone says "oh man our worst MU is sonic because X, Y and Z", but I think it just means Sonic is a great character that everyone has trouble with at times.
First off, you can't chase down sonic, so aggro doggies will have a RUFF time with this one. However, Trick Shot stops his spin-dash apporaches, as well as gunmen and clay. If Sonic wants to approach (and has too because of no projectiles), he has to run and jump in. Keeping Trick Shot on the ground forces Sonic to either jump over it or risk getting near it for him to get in. If he attacks the can (with dash attack most likely), it's a free grab. If he f-tilts, just run away (or try to) until you can get another Trick Shot out. As for his spindashing, most people try to punish it after shielding, which is extremely hard, especially with doggy. Don't try to punish, use his end-lag to set up more traps.
Sonic can get in fairly easily still, especially if you don't keep up your trap game. Once he gets in, prepare to take a lot of damage. Not much you can do to fight once you are in a combo though, so just try to DI properly, and nair back on-stage. Sonic has KO set-ups as well, but they're not as easy to set up (as it seems from my perspective) as others, so poper DI mix-ups will save you a lot of hassle.
If someone has the advantage in the MU, I'd say it's probably Sonic, since he's so fast and has better KO set-ups, but I really do think this MU is based more off player skill instead of how the MU works. I'd give it a -1 for doggy, in my opinion, it's tolerable but it's not easy. Just play very defensively.
It's very slow and defensive, due to DHD's way of attack. Patience is key here.
I found DHD to be not too hard though. It seemed as if DHD's moves were wall's towards sonic, but once he gets past them, it's the wall of pain for DHD himself.
Honestly the best attack to use against sonic would be the Side B. (I think it's the clay one). Unlike Neutral B and Down B, it's comes out quite fast and you can use it pretty well to stop sonic right in his tracks.
When fighting sonic, don't give him space and remember to upsmash if sonic goes for a homing attack (very possible, as DHD rules the ground with his special moves). If you do get him, see if you can grab him and throw him around. It should help mess up his game.
EDIT: I think sonic wins, but only somewhat. It's 55:45 to Sonic imo.
I actually don't think Captain Falcon is that bad for us. I would give a -1 instead of a -2, since he is still a rushdown character and we're naturally rekt by rushdown characters played well. I've been quite successful against CFs by using only a combination of can + gunmen, and keeping clay pigeons to a minimum. If CF stays on the ground, having a can in front of you and occassionally using other B moves to force him to shield lets you stay just fine and get so many grabs, to f-throws to dash attacks/f-airs to rack up damage. I feel the only thing is that you can't just let yourself get too comfortable, since dash attack is the biggest threat against everything except can. Dash grab is obviously a threat as well, but side-B beats it, and spamming it at the beginning will most likely condition the Falcon player to dash attack a lot, so be aware of that and use it to your advantage.
I find his aerial approach easier to counter as DH than with most other characters, since you can control the air very well with a can, drastically reducing his ability to space aerials and try to trick you with short hops, especially taking into account that he lacks projectiles. Our f-air is also a great spacing tool to keep them away from you when they're trying some aerial approach shenanigan, and is also relatively safe; however, a f-air + can tandem would be the ideal strategy here just in case you mispace your aerial and/or fail to read a double jump, or something. I usually try to keep a can in the air at all times to limit his aerial approach and use gunmen to pressure him on the ground. Falcons tend to just stay grounded, dash attack a lot, hoping to catch you while side-B'ing and approach a with their shield, trying to go for powershields, which is beaten by YOLO grabs, especially when you use your gunmen efficiently.
Edgeguarding is as easy for you as it should be for them to edgeguard you, if not easier, as the can can practically do the job alone. If you're good controlling the dog at the same time as the can, edgeguarding is actually much more simple. You rack up damage incredibly easy because Falcon's recovery is bad enough that it crashes into well placed cans more often than not. Cans are also excellent to bait out airdodges and capitalize with a n-air or d-air, although it can be quite risky if you're not precise enough.
That is as far as the pros go, our cons, and the reason Falcon is actually in favor of the matchup is merely because of juggles, a better punish game and much better kill potential, as everyone already pointed out. So, in my opinion, DH is better at controlling the stage and the pace of the match, and wins the neutral and edgeguard situations if you're smart enough, but loses in the other departments, so it's actually a much more even matchup than most people would think.
It's very slow and defensive, due to DHD's way of attack. Patience is key here.
I found DHD to be not too hard though. It seemed as if DHD's moves were wall's towards sonic, but once he gets past them, it's the wall of pain for DHD himself.
Honestly the best attack to use against sonic would be the Side B. (I think it's the clay one). Unlike Neutral B and Down B, it's comes out quite fast and you can use it pretty well to stop sonic right in his tracks.
When fighting sonic, don't give him space and remember to upsmash if sonic goes for a homing attack (very possible, as DHD rules the ground with his special moves). If you do get him, see if you can grab him and throw him around. It should help mess up his game.
EDIT: I think sonic wins, but only somewhat. It's 55:45 to Sonic imo.
I honestly wouldn't go for the up-smash against homing, it's pretty risky an attack for something that does not always connect properly. I'd instead roll right when Sonic flies in, letting him take the end lag from hitting the ground for another free punish, maybe an F-Smash.
VS
