Funkermonster
The Clown
Can we still challenge you for bragging rights (or at least for the experience)? 
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Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion
- Thread starter WispBae
- Start date
DunnoBro
The Free-est
Kongo is awful for DHD, while it's good for his neutral game with the platforms and recovery options, his kill potential is absolutely shot against most chars since he's reliant on vertical KOs, which are a far-off dream here.
I'm still evolving with my views of DHD, and I think I once said Kongo was good for DHD on here but after actually trying it out in-depth, it's an issue. I will also recant my opinion of Delfino somewhat, the walkoff portions are pretty bad for DHD, a character reliant on edgeguarding and the ledge to box the opponent in. Halberd is overall superior and delfino is definitely better for other chars, especially rushdown chars.
Recently I've been counterpicked to halberd by many diddy mains on the smashladder and nintendodojo, and every time I did better there than the neutrals. On two separate occasions, players that either beat me previously in the match or were otherwise very close to doing so, got 2 stocked there. It solidifies an earlier theory of mine that when the environment promotes earlier kills, duck hunt is king.
Duck hunt has arguably the best damage dealing potential in the game. However, when the times to deal damage, and the time to kill overlap less, and less (on bigger stages) this ability becomes less and less respectable. Simply because you have to do even MORE damage before you can kill. Meaning more interactions with the opponent are necessary, meaning more can go wrong.
Ergo, by favoring stages where characters die earlier, DHD should have an advantage.
Refer to this stage blastzone data for info on those(generic, not DHD specific)
My Stage Choice Flowchart for Apex:
Now, to go in-depth why I chose Halberd as my go-to CP:
@ Best DHD:
Dittos, especially duck hunt dittos which force such niche interactions are a poor way to determine who's better with the character. I managed to beat guy's duck hunt game 1 but it's not like it was a blowout and he made the objectively superior decision to use greninja against duck hunt while I was forced to stay DHD cause my secondaries simply would've got bodied by his DHD or Greninja.
The true Alpha dog will be revealed at Apex.
I'm still evolving with my views of DHD, and I think I once said Kongo was good for DHD on here but after actually trying it out in-depth, it's an issue. I will also recant my opinion of Delfino somewhat, the walkoff portions are pretty bad for DHD, a character reliant on edgeguarding and the ledge to box the opponent in. Halberd is overall superior and delfino is definitely better for other chars, especially rushdown chars.
Recently I've been counterpicked to halberd by many diddy mains on the smashladder and nintendodojo, and every time I did better there than the neutrals. On two separate occasions, players that either beat me previously in the match or were otherwise very close to doing so, got 2 stocked there. It solidifies an earlier theory of mine that when the environment promotes earlier kills, duck hunt is king.
Duck hunt has arguably the best damage dealing potential in the game. However, when the times to deal damage, and the time to kill overlap less, and less (on bigger stages) this ability becomes less and less respectable. Simply because you have to do even MORE damage before you can kill. Meaning more interactions with the opponent are necessary, meaning more can go wrong.
Ergo, by favoring stages where characters die earlier, DHD should have an advantage.
Refer to this stage blastzone data for info on those(generic, not DHD specific)
My Stage Choice Flowchart for Apex:
Duck hunt is also mostly a vertical killer. Only fsmash, downsmash, bair, and off-stage cans kill horizontally. None of those are very reliable beyond hard reads.
So logically, we should aim for low ceilings.
Going by apex rules, the only 3 starters are FD, BF, and Smashville. Smashville has the closest blastranges of those 3. And luckily is a pretty popular stage for most players, so it should be easy enough to start there most times.
If struck, it becomes very dependent on the opponent character as to what you'll want to switch to.
Note: While FD has a lower ceiling than BF, the platforms enable more, and higher vertical combos and kill moves, so character matchup is more important generally if the decision is between the two.
Sonic, and Sheik for example should be taken to BF. Horizontal killers are somewhat hindered there and these two have only average/poor platform pressure.
But Diddy and ZSS should be taken to FD. Vertical killers who are further aided by platforms, much more than we are. It's very difficult to return to neutral on BF vs these characters.
For counterpicks, I'd say aim for Halberd first, town and city second. With Lylat and Smashville also being solid choices if you're unsure about those.
Town and city has a low ceiling, and high platforms to enable higher kill move connects. However, the platforms and sheer size of the main stage make it seem odd to me, though I have come to like it more and more in recent days. I will admit getting used to avoiding letting your can get stuck on the platforms/out of neutral takes a much more conscious effort than other stages, but it is worth getting used to imo. They don't hinder your landing nearly as much as battlefield's platforms, and actually provide decent camping positions.
For your 2 stage bans, Kongo definitely. DHD has such an impossible time killing there. If fox's upsmash has to wait until 120% to kill mario with an upsmash, imagine what Duck Hunt will have to do with his reliance on vertical kills. Furthermore, the barrel and the ability to rise through the bottom of the stage provide anti-edgeguard tools that hurt our ability to pressure off-stage. Not to mention his smashes are more unreliable than ever due to the slants.
Then, it depends on their char. Generally castle siege, as it's second portion ruins us and enables horizontal killer/rushdown characters a lot of freedom and opportunity for super low % kills. If you suspect their only chars also dislike castle siege, or otherwise doubt they'll pick it, Duck Hunt and Delfino seem pretty dubious for DHD.
So logically, we should aim for low ceilings.
Going by apex rules, the only 3 starters are FD, BF, and Smashville. Smashville has the closest blastranges of those 3. And luckily is a pretty popular stage for most players, so it should be easy enough to start there most times.
If struck, it becomes very dependent on the opponent character as to what you'll want to switch to.
Note: While FD has a lower ceiling than BF, the platforms enable more, and higher vertical combos and kill moves, so character matchup is more important generally if the decision is between the two.
Sonic, and Sheik for example should be taken to BF. Horizontal killers are somewhat hindered there and these two have only average/poor platform pressure.
But Diddy and ZSS should be taken to FD. Vertical killers who are further aided by platforms, much more than we are. It's very difficult to return to neutral on BF vs these characters.
For counterpicks, I'd say aim for Halberd first, town and city second. With Lylat and Smashville also being solid choices if you're unsure about those.
Town and city has a low ceiling, and high platforms to enable higher kill move connects. However, the platforms and sheer size of the main stage make it seem odd to me, though I have come to like it more and more in recent days. I will admit getting used to avoiding letting your can get stuck on the platforms/out of neutral takes a much more conscious effort than other stages, but it is worth getting used to imo. They don't hinder your landing nearly as much as battlefield's platforms, and actually provide decent camping positions.
For your 2 stage bans, Kongo definitely. DHD has such an impossible time killing there. If fox's upsmash has to wait until 120% to kill mario with an upsmash, imagine what Duck Hunt will have to do with his reliance on vertical kills. Furthermore, the barrel and the ability to rise through the bottom of the stage provide anti-edgeguard tools that hurt our ability to pressure off-stage. Not to mention his smashes are more unreliable than ever due to the slants.
Then, it depends on their char. Generally castle siege, as it's second portion ruins us and enables horizontal killer/rushdown characters a lot of freedom and opportunity for super low % kills. If you suspect their only chars also dislike castle siege, or otherwise doubt they'll pick it, Duck Hunt and Delfino seem pretty dubious for DHD.
Now, to go in-depth why I chose Halberd as my go-to CP:
Pros:
Low ceiling and platform enables very early kills and threatening string.
Stage hazards compliment our stage control ability, creating much larger and more threatening zoning capabilities.
Pillar form is very small and lets us easily fly to the other ledge in a pinch, and control the stage more easily.
Pillar form leaves us unlikely to be stage spiked unless they hit with diagonally upward hitbox. (Which trick shot has, so can still stage spike the opponent with reverse shots) As well as allowing for some more flexibility recovering due to the ability to rise through it.
Cons:
Other vertical killers such as Diddy, and ZSS also enjoy the low ceiling.
The ship portion is very large, and when there's no stage hazards it can be difficult to maintain stage control.
The walkoff portion while luckily short, is at the beginning of the match and is very awkward for us to play in.
Verdict: Play!
Notes: While diddy, zss, and perhaps other vertical killers benefit from this stage, no one is more in need of actual kill power and situations than duck hunt. So I'd still CP this stage against them. Remember, duck hunt increments damage better than most characters, including them.
Let's say if we quantify the characters to base goals, Diddy and ZSS generally rely on 4-5 notable player interactions before they can go for the kill kill on a normal stage. DHD needs about 5-7.
Then, we rate how difficult these damage dealing interactions are for the character to win. I think it's fair to say Diddy and ZSS have medium difficulty, and DHD has easy. (Or at least easier than them)
But for killing interactions, Diddy and ZSS again have medium difficulty, while DHD has a hard difficulty. He doesn't have super reliable kill set-ups like them, especially on most stages.
A big reason for this, is diddy and ZSS's damage dealing interactions and killing interactions aren't generally too different. It's an almost seemless transition. Whereas DHD's isn't, but on halberd there is more overlap in his damage dealing and his killing. This lets his strengths flow into his weaknesses.
Delayed shot combos stop working when they could kill on many stages, but on halberd you generally get about another 10-15% where it still works and can kill.
The same goes for the can killing them outright.
So on halberd, let's say diddy and ZSS go down to about 3-4 damage dealing interactions before they can kill, and DHD about 4-6, just one each. However, DHD also gets more, and more potent feasible killing interactions, thus lowering the difficulty of them overall, certainly more than the other two characters who aside from maybe ZSS don't really acquire any reliable benefits to their killing interactions beyond being able to use them sooner.
So objectively, to me, it should be fair to say that assuming equal player skill, and familiarity on the stage, DHD should benefit more from halberd than other certain characters notorious for CPing it themselves, and we shouldn't be afraid to do so against them.
Low ceiling and platform enables very early kills and threatening string.
Stage hazards compliment our stage control ability, creating much larger and more threatening zoning capabilities.
Pillar form is very small and lets us easily fly to the other ledge in a pinch, and control the stage more easily.
Pillar form leaves us unlikely to be stage spiked unless they hit with diagonally upward hitbox. (Which trick shot has, so can still stage spike the opponent with reverse shots) As well as allowing for some more flexibility recovering due to the ability to rise through it.
Cons:
Other vertical killers such as Diddy, and ZSS also enjoy the low ceiling.
The ship portion is very large, and when there's no stage hazards it can be difficult to maintain stage control.
The walkoff portion while luckily short, is at the beginning of the match and is very awkward for us to play in.
Verdict: Play!
Notes: While diddy, zss, and perhaps other vertical killers benefit from this stage, no one is more in need of actual kill power and situations than duck hunt. So I'd still CP this stage against them. Remember, duck hunt increments damage better than most characters, including them.
Let's say if we quantify the characters to base goals, Diddy and ZSS generally rely on 4-5 notable player interactions before they can go for the kill kill on a normal stage. DHD needs about 5-7.
Then, we rate how difficult these damage dealing interactions are for the character to win. I think it's fair to say Diddy and ZSS have medium difficulty, and DHD has easy. (Or at least easier than them)
But for killing interactions, Diddy and ZSS again have medium difficulty, while DHD has a hard difficulty. He doesn't have super reliable kill set-ups like them, especially on most stages.
A big reason for this, is diddy and ZSS's damage dealing interactions and killing interactions aren't generally too different. It's an almost seemless transition. Whereas DHD's isn't, but on halberd there is more overlap in his damage dealing and his killing. This lets his strengths flow into his weaknesses.
Delayed shot combos stop working when they could kill on many stages, but on halberd you generally get about another 10-15% where it still works and can kill.
The same goes for the can killing them outright.
So on halberd, let's say diddy and ZSS go down to about 3-4 damage dealing interactions before they can kill, and DHD about 4-6, just one each. However, DHD also gets more, and more potent feasible killing interactions, thus lowering the difficulty of them overall, certainly more than the other two characters who aside from maybe ZSS don't really acquire any reliable benefits to their killing interactions beyond being able to use them sooner.
So objectively, to me, it should be fair to say that assuming equal player skill, and familiarity on the stage, DHD should benefit more from halberd than other certain characters notorious for CPing it themselves, and we shouldn't be afraid to do so against them.
@ Best DHD:
Dittos, especially duck hunt dittos which force such niche interactions are a poor way to determine who's better with the character. I managed to beat guy's duck hunt game 1 but it's not like it was a blowout and he made the objectively superior decision to use greninja against duck hunt while I was forced to stay DHD cause my secondaries simply would've got bodied by his DHD or Greninja.
The true Alpha dog will be revealed at Apex.
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Funkermonster
The Clown
My little insight against , as I played a really good one in a tourney last Saturday:
Normally, I would go on the offense and use my projectiles for aggression: creating traps, forcing reactions from my opponent, exploiting openings, and just making hell for them with pressure. But for this matchup, I find myself having to play lamer and be more defensive, trying to wall Luigi out with my projectiles and prevent him from getting in. Throughout the Smash series, Luigi's approach options have never been any good without his wavedash, and unfortunately for him he doesn't have that luxury in this game. Most of the time, DH's zoning is really not that great since our projectiles are pretty slow and can be destroyed/reflected with disjointed moves and other projectiles, but for this battle Luigi is a character who just derides projectile zoning in general with his poor range and low mobility, so thankfully he's one of the MUs where we can get away with it. His fireballs are outmatched by all 3 of our projectiles and aren't quite as effective as Mario's. A single Luigi fireball can kill a gunman/frisbee in a single hit and deflect a grounded can, but he can't deal with multiple projectiles at the same time. Gunmen die from the fire, but can still shield me from getting hit, and while I'm guarded I send a can overhead to either punish the endlag from his fireballs, or bait him into shielding so I can go in and get a free grab. Frisbees work well when landing on the ground to rack damage on him too, and it's a good idea to combo from the frisbee shots into Fair whenever possible.
But personally when he does get in, I wet my pants for Luigi's pressure options and I find them scarier than Duck Hunt's to an extent, with his crazy combo potential and insane killing moves. Whatever you do, avoid getting grabbed by Luigi at all costs, his Dthrow will be a one way ticket to hell if he can punch that ticket. Not only does he get insane damage from Fair followups (sometimes even regrab you to continue it), but he can still get kill combos from his Dthrow at higher percents by comboing into his Nair, Fire Jump Punch, or Luigi Cyclone. The utility of Luigi's Dthrow might even be as scary as Diddy's.... Luigi's kill potential is significantly better than Duck Hunt's imo, with the ridiculous kill combos he has and power in his Cyclone spin, and if he gets us offstage we are sitting ducks to his Dair meteor and Bair stagespikes. And it will be very satisfying for Luigi if he gets a kill from his Down Taunt too, my opponent tried it on me at the tournament and though he didn't get it, everyone thought it was badass that he tried. When Luigi uses his fireballs, he may likely use it as an approach to bait us into shielding so he can get a grab, so watch out for those. We have true combos from Fthrow into Dash Attack/Fair, throwing him into a sploding' can, and Fair from a clay pigeon; but Luigi's Nair Sex Kick can act as a combo breaker if he reads them after they're no longer true combos, and we don't really have any reliable killing ones like he does. May be wise to use our own Nair as an OoS option and Combo Breaker if we make good reads and try to space him with projectiles, Ftilt, and Fair with our disjoints.
When he's offstage, Luigi's recovery isn't horrible, but it isn't good either. He certainly won't like eating cans and gunshots offstage, so abuse them as much as possible. Be careful when trying to kill him yourself offstage however, the commentators of my match mentioned that when I once cleaned his last stock with a Dair meteor, it was a dangerous tactic and he could've used his Luigi Cyclone to beat out my Dair and kill me instead. And as mentioned before, it's duck season if we're the one's offstage, even against his Down Taunt (not practical maybe, but still funny).
All in all though, as long as you can keep him out, Luigi is as good as
, as I played a really good one in a tourney last Saturday:Normally, I would go on the offense and use my projectiles for aggression: creating traps, forcing reactions from my opponent, exploiting openings, and just making hell for them with pressure. But for this matchup, I find myself having to play lamer and be more defensive, trying to wall Luigi out with my projectiles and prevent him from getting in. Throughout the Smash series, Luigi's approach options have never been any good without his wavedash, and unfortunately for him he doesn't have that luxury in this game. Most of the time, DH's zoning is really not that great since our projectiles are pretty slow and can be destroyed/reflected with disjointed moves and other projectiles, but for this battle Luigi is a character who just derides projectile zoning in general with his poor range and low mobility, so thankfully he's one of the MUs where we can get away with it. His fireballs are outmatched by all 3 of our projectiles and aren't quite as effective as Mario's. A single Luigi fireball can kill a gunman/frisbee in a single hit and deflect a grounded can, but he can't deal with multiple projectiles at the same time. Gunmen die from the fire, but can still shield me from getting hit, and while I'm guarded I send a can overhead to either punish the endlag from his fireballs, or bait him into shielding so I can go in and get a free grab. Frisbees work well when landing on the ground to rack damage on him too, and it's a good idea to combo from the frisbee shots into Fair whenever possible.
But personally when he does get in, I wet my pants for Luigi's pressure options and I find them scarier than Duck Hunt's to an extent, with his crazy combo potential and insane killing moves. Whatever you do, avoid getting grabbed by Luigi at all costs, his Dthrow will be a one way ticket to hell if he can punch that ticket. Not only does he get insane damage from Fair followups (sometimes even regrab you to continue it), but he can still get kill combos from his Dthrow at higher percents by comboing into his Nair, Fire Jump Punch, or Luigi Cyclone. The utility of Luigi's Dthrow might even be as scary as Diddy's.... Luigi's kill potential is significantly better than Duck Hunt's imo, with the ridiculous kill combos he has and power in his Cyclone spin, and if he gets us offstage we are sitting ducks to his Dair meteor and Bair stagespikes. And it will be very satisfying for Luigi if he gets a kill from his Down Taunt too, my opponent tried it on me at the tournament and though he didn't get it, everyone thought it was badass that he tried. When Luigi uses his fireballs, he may likely use it as an approach to bait us into shielding so he can get a grab, so watch out for those. We have true combos from Fthrow into Dash Attack/Fair, throwing him into a sploding' can, and Fair from a clay pigeon; but Luigi's Nair Sex Kick can act as a combo breaker if he reads them after they're no longer true combos, and we don't really have any reliable killing ones like he does. May be wise to use our own Nair as an OoS option and Combo Breaker if we make good reads and try to space him with projectiles, Ftilt, and Fair with our disjoints.
When he's offstage, Luigi's recovery isn't horrible, but it isn't good either. He certainly won't like eating cans and gunshots offstage, so abuse them as much as possible. Be careful when trying to kill him yourself offstage however, the commentators of my match mentioned that when I once cleaned his last stock with a Dair meteor, it was a dangerous tactic and he could've used his Luigi Cyclone to beat out my Dair and kill me instead. And as mentioned before, it's duck season if we're the one's offstage, even against his Down Taunt (not practical maybe, but still funny).
All in all though, as long as you can keep him out, Luigi is as good as
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
Info Update Time!
Added...
Pros:
Notes: A playstyle mix up may be necessary here, but I quite enjoy the stage. If I have an opponent I know will be hard to edgegaurd (Villager, RosaLuma, etc), I would take them here, hoping for an easier time with other types of KO's.
Thoughts?
Added...
- Luigi MU (@
Funkermonster
) - Halberd Opinions (@
DunnoBro
) - KJ64 Opinions (@
Spirst
, some scrub name Wispy [lol wut loozer amirite????])
Pros:
- A ton of room to breathe and escape pressure.
- Platform to assist with off-the-top KO's, as well as spots for cans.
- Low Ceiling in many portions of the stage.
- Low Ceiling is a double edged sword (Luigi, for example, also benefits).
- Transitions in stage can mess up trap set ups.
- Portions with water and walk offs can get rid of doggy's great gimp game.
Notes: A playstyle mix up may be necessary here, but I quite enjoy the stage. If I have an opponent I know will be hard to edgegaurd (Villager, RosaLuma, etc), I would take them here, hoping for an easier time with other types of KO's.
Thoughts?
Funkermonster
The Clown
Also another thing I forgot to note against Luigi: Don't disrespect the Green Missile. While it's telegraphed and massively unsafe on shield like Pikachu's Skull Bash, he can always get a misfire when you don't suspect it, and if it happens you will die.
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
Bump.
Can we talk about Yoshi? How the hell are we supposed to deal with him? When I talked to a good Yoshi main at Paragon, he was telling me that you pretty much have to play super defensive against Yoshi, wait for the Nair attempts and telegraphed moves.
His eggs make cans in mid-air a pain in the bum, clay pigeon works ok but it's not a major tool you can rely on without getting predictable, and to use gunmen you'll either have to get lucky with which one is summoned, or protect him before he shoots, to open for a grab or attack follow up. Even then, his Nair comes out so quickly. I really can't figure out a decent strategy that doesn't involve camping a ton, and trading eggs with clay pigeons.
Can we talk about Yoshi? How the hell are we supposed to deal with him? When I talked to a good Yoshi main at Paragon, he was telling me that you pretty much have to play super defensive against Yoshi, wait for the Nair attempts and telegraphed moves.
His eggs make cans in mid-air a pain in the bum, clay pigeon works ok but it's not a major tool you can rely on without getting predictable, and to use gunmen you'll either have to get lucky with which one is summoned, or protect him before he shoots, to open for a grab or attack follow up. Even then, his Nair comes out so quickly. I really can't figure out a decent strategy that doesn't involve camping a ton, and trading eggs with clay pigeons.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2011
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- 3,474
I really hate Yoshi as DH. I try to play defensively/opportunistically against him due to how absurd his airspeed/eggs are. I'd say to always keep something in between him and you since once he gets in, he can do some stupid stuff. If you're having issues with gunmen not shooting in time, this might be a MU that's suitable for quick gunmen. I was thinking of mega gunmen to avoid eggs but I think having a quickfire option might be more useful than wall since if you have the latter, you're still stuck with being defensive rather than having a move you can throw out there at any point. One thing that's on our side is that we have good aerial disjoints to outmatch his own. I find the fair to be a great tool vs a Yoshi playing too aggressively. Would love to hear more input on this MU since it's an irritating one.
On a side note: the Greninja boards are discussing the DH MU for some reason. I figured it'd be cool if we could have at least 2/5 DH players give their input on the MU.
http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-rob-villager-b-jr-dh-1-26-2-2.369356/page-10
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
So I've been thinking this thread should be like the other thread where we invite others to help talk about MU's, although I'm curious as to if you all would want to invite people to come based on...
I'm all for voting on how hard an MU is, but would like your guys' thoughts first.
Edit: Yoshi would be my first choice, then Captain Falcon.
- How hard an MU is
- Characters from left to right
- Alphabetically
I'm all for voting on how hard an MU is, but would like your guys' thoughts first.
Edit: Yoshi would be my first choice, then Captain Falcon.
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outfoxd
Smash Ace
I like voting. Sets priority characters ahead.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2011
- Messages
- 3,474
I'm also in favor of voting. The other two options forcibly cover characters as obscure as we are which would make discussion nonexistent at this point of the meta. Voting, as said above, lets us focus on priority characters like Sheik who saturates the scene at the moment and who would be covered way too late by the other two options.
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WispBae
Tsundere Princess
Voting it is then.
So let's start with 3 options.
1)Shiek
2)Yoshi
3)Sonic
It's no denying these are hard MU's, and may be some of the hardest for Doggy.
Some MU's to take into future consideration:
So let's start with 3 options.
1)Shiek
2)Yoshi
3)Sonic
It's no denying these are hard MU's, and may be some of the hardest for Doggy.
Some MU's to take into future consideration:
- Diddy Kong
- King DeDeDe
- The ditto (feel like this one needs more discussion).
- Zero Suit Samus
- Link
- Captain Falcon
- Fox
- Shulk
outfoxd
Smash Ace
Sonic Aggravates my puppy like fleas, so there's my vote.
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Mario & Sonic Guy
Old rivalries live on!
The Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread is currently analyzing Duck Hunt. If you have anything to input, regarding the Rosalina vs. Duck Hunt match-up, Duck Hunt's discussion period will last until the end of 2/4.
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
Since nobody else voted, I suppose Sonic shall be the first person up for discussion!
Main issues with this MU:
Main issues with this MU:
- He's constantly ROLLING AROUND AT THE SPEED OF SOUND (aka too fast).
- Able to weave in and out with ease.
- Easy KO set ups via grab and a grab KO.
- Disjointed moves
- Can and gunmen (fast gunmen though!)
BlackPhantom
Smash Apprentice
Lemme just say, props to you guys for making DHD my favorite matchup against sonic in this game. He relies on his projectiles, but also has a decent close combat game. How to keep him out tho? Gimme some time to think, just got home from school.
Edit: Alright so what gets me when I play against DHD is if you just rain all hell and bombard us with ur projectiles, because individually they aren't too much of a threat. Frisbee can be shielded, the Can can be anticipated and shielded (although that stage pressure is real), and gunmen can be stopped with shield (but HA aims for it so its a good shield). One more thing: always keep moving. If your moving and say pivot fribees or gunmen, it makes it hard to chase and catch you, like animal control
Edit: Alright so what gets me when I play against DHD is if you just rain all hell and bombard us with ur projectiles, because individually they aren't too much of a threat. Frisbee can be shielded, the Can can be anticipated and shielded (although that stage pressure is real), and gunmen can be stopped with shield (but HA aims for it so its a good shield). One more thing: always keep moving. If your moving and say pivot fribees or gunmen, it makes it hard to chase and catch you, like animal control
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Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
Anyone have any tips for Sonic matchup? I'm trying to help MVD learn it so he doesn't get so discouraged. Tips anyone?
outfoxd
Smash Ace
Not good at it myself. But sometimes if I'm desperate I boot the can into their face on approach, just because it comes out near instantly and I'd rather eat a bomb than a Sonic combo.
Sean²
Smash Capitalist
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Anyone have any tips against Pikachu? His approach just seems to destroy every option DH has and he has quicker and better smashes to boot. And that ffffffffffffffffing Nair. This is one of the few characters that make me rage.
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oogamania
Smash Cadet
Against Samus, I'd say DH would give samus a hard time, mainly because of the clay pigeon, the gunmen and the can blocking all of her projectiles. (shield if she ever hits the can towards your way.) If you are coming up from the stage, depending on where your opponent is use the gunmen to block her charged shot or missiles. After that, as a For Glory habit samus players will either recharge or roll. grab her.
In regards to the Sonic MU I find it best to throw out pivot Frisbees and to constantly be on the move. Duck Hunt is best played when the user is always moving and throwing out projectiles. If you're moving, pivot Frisbees, and setting up gunmen you will slow Sonic down and halt his momentum. When Sonic shields or rolls punish with a grab or dash attack. The only thing then to be cautious about is the spin dash. Bait a spin dash with a gunmen, shield then punish.
Mr.Pikachu
Smash Journeyman
With sonic all your moves are not safe which sucks since when when we try to create space with our projectiles and slow him down he can dash past all of our projectiles and break clay pigeon and make can useless. In my opinion it really depends on how the sonic plays since some sonics like to charge in no matter what or stay cautious and look for openings they can capitalize on. Gunmen will definitely be your best friend in this MU since gunmen can hit him out of his spindash and such which they'll be forced to take defensive options. It's hard slowing sonic down with our projectiles since he can dash right by them which you could bait out to punish their common approach options. Gunmen will really narrow down their approach options to either rush in or shield the gunmen making them a little bit more predictable about their approach habits. I almost feel like the can is useless in this MU simply because sonic can dash attack it and hit it out of the stage. You could bait for this however and punish accordingly. Limiting sonics approach options and punishing his approaches will really help you and as well as sonic recoveries goes just use a can to make him recovery more predictably and spike him. Mainly the biggest suggestion is to play patiently. If you go above trying to get kill moves on him when he's at high percent he just simply going to kill you first. That's my input on the MU, might be useful to some people or not.
Any input on DHD vs. Ness?
Any input on DHD vs. Ness?
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With me personally I just find it best to zone Ness out and punish. I play a little less aggressive to avoid his grabs and pk fire. Setting up traps with gunmen, can and Frisbee is ideal as well. You want to wrack up as much damage as you possibly can without getting caught with the fire or grab because DH is very vulnerable in the air. Also try not to challenge Ness in the air, his aerials beat out ours. @
Mr.Pikachu
Mr.Pikachu
Mr.Pikachu
Smash Journeyman
Recently I was playing a ness who batted everything back at me, it was so annoying... He never ever approached unless his damage was higher. He'd try to time me out too.With me personally I just find it best to zone Ness out and punish. I play a little less aggressive to avoid his grabs and pk fire. Setting up traps with gunmen, can and Frisbee is ideal as well. You want to wrack up as much damage as you possibly can without getting caught with the fire or grab because DH is very vulnerable in the air. Also try not to challenge Ness in the air, his aerials beat out ours. @
When it comes to the batting of projectiles it means that this Ness is predicting and reading your tosses. Try throwing out less projectiles and more physical attacks whether it be aerials, dash attack, pivot tilts or grabs. Also throw out gunmen, I'm Pretty sure at a good distance Ness can't bat the shots away. When I play a campy Ness I usually throw out well placed gunmen which allow me to approach safely. This along with well placed cans should deal with that. When he sees that his campy play style is ineffective he'll become more aggressive and that's when u can throw out more projectiles. @
Mr.Pikachu
Mr.Pikachu
Galaxian
Smash Journeyman
Not a DH main but I'd like to be but I just found out that if you're in Yoshi's egg you can still knock around an on-stage can.
Keep that in mind for the Yoshi MU.
ALSO as a Pac-Main I'd like to give my two cents on my MU against you dogs.
I'm going to use fruit. Keep that in mind if you're going to use your can - I'll probably use Orange or something to get it away from me. Maybe Nair if I feel risky.
Hydrant's a big obstacle because it blocks projectiles, so try to watch out for that.
Keep that in mind for the Yoshi MU.
ALSO as a Pac-Main I'd like to give my two cents on my MU against you dogs.
I'm going to use fruit. Keep that in mind if you're going to use your can - I'll probably use Orange or something to get it away from me. Maybe Nair if I feel risky.
Hydrant's a big obstacle because it blocks projectiles, so try to watch out for that.
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Mr.Pikachu
Smash Journeyman
Do you think we could talk about the shulk match up? Most of the time I encounter shulks I can't get past his Nair pressure and he just demolishes all my projectiles. His monado arts are also such a pain to deal with.
Diamond DHD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
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- 272
I'm unbelievably bad at the Shulk MU, his disjoint basically forces defensive options since there's no chance of challening his attacks with anything more than a clank, and my defense is probably my worst aspect, I can't spot dodge, my rolls are more of a spacing tool, I often get shield broken when I use shield, and otherwise I'd rather use an offensive option to avoid an attack, but then they just beat it out with aerial or counter it. So any help with Shulk is appreciated.
For what I can actually offer in terms of the MU, it's not much, but I find gunman as my best friend in this MU, use it to force certain options then punish. If they block it, grab, if they jump over, uair, if they eat the hit, do whatever. Once they switch to Shield monado or get your in a disadvantaged situation, then I dunno. I can sometimes win the neutral game against Shulk, but when it comes to getting the KO, getting out of a disadvantaged situation, or anything in-between, I'm absolutely clueless. Sometimes I don't even win the neutral, I just end up getting rushed-down with nairs.
Mr.Pikachu
Smash Journeyman
The main thing that makes Shulk so hard to beat is his absurd range along with his fast auto canceling aerials, making it incredibly hard to punish if we even can. His monado arts is also is another huge problem since he can easily rack up damage, recover fairly well, can kill easily, and let's not forget make it incredibly hard to kill him especially as DHD. He's pretty much like a Marth on steroids. The thing I'm actually seeing now is Shulks are pretty predictable when they use their arts. For instance, speed form, they usually try to abuse their increased pivot grab range, use more nairs and try to apply more pressure and punish more often. I see most shulks use this at low %s and sometimes at high % to get a grab kill. With jump arts, 95% of them always chase you offstage with this making it extremely hard to get back onstage, not to mention they get a boosted recovery. Now shulk will only use buster arts at low %'s to rack up damage and it's really annoying when they go into this mode since the low knockback will guarantee them for some follow-ups and extra damage although if we can avoid that, all of our attacks will do extra damage to him since the downside effect of buster arts is they take increased damage. They'll use nair a lot more to start their combos and grab follow ups. Smash arts is when they want to finish you off and they'll be searching for a fsmash/usmash and you still need to be careful because his tilts can take your stocks as well. Even though their downside effect is they take increased knockback we can barely kill unless we get a good bair, uair either a dair spike on them. Trying to abuse their downside effect with smash attacks will only get you killed so what I try to do is play safely and continue to can and run then finish them off when the power subsided. The one that gives DHD the most trouble is his shield arts since we already can't kill and he gets drastically low knockback when we attack him the only thing we can do is camp him out since he can still autocancel into safe jabs. Although if he's offstage time your dair on him, he won't auto sweet spot the ledge which gives us a chance to capitalize on his reduced recovery.
The main things going for shulk is his powerful, but safe ranged moves and his arts. I think if we can neutralize this then we could beat him.
(P.S- Sorry about the long post!)
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Mario.....I am having the hardest time with his speed and aerials. I usually play an aggressive and I know I have to be more campy, but I can never get the chance to. His speed and stage presence is too much. Help please!
and I know I have to be more campy, but I can never get the chance to. His speed and stage presence is too much. Help please!
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meleebrawler
Smash Hero
Jump art doesn't reduce ground speed, it only makes it look slow compared to air speed.
The real drawback of Smash art is that it makes almost everything Shulk has unsafe on shield.
Diamond DHD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
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- 272
We dropping the system of talking about the MU in the title or wut? Don't think anyone has any more Sonic advice, my best advice is pick a secondary. Why don't we go like the R.O.B. boards and make individual threads for our worst and hardest MUs? It'll be easier to get people from that character's board to come in and give advice, and it'll be easier to keep it on-topic. What do you think @
Spirst
@
WispBae
?
Spirst
@
WispBae
?Mario is an odd character to give advice on since he's such a balanced all-rounder, to the point where the best advice would be based on habits that most Mario mains have, so I'll do dat:Mario.....I am having the hardest time with his speed and aerials. I usually play an aggressive
- Marios tend to be very cape-happy against DHD players, one of the worst mistakes being that they attempt to cape the gunman's bullet, which works, except it won't hit DHD, it'll hit the gunman as long as you aren't in the way. This gives you an opportunity to get in against the Mario.
- At low percentages, keep a watchful eye for grabs, to the same extent you'd be wary of a Diddy player, because Mario can immediately take you to around 50% with up-tilt strings and up-b/up-smash. This is where being good at spot-dodging comes in helpful, you can expect the grab and dodge it, then grab them yourself for a throw follow-up.
- A fireball happy Mario is hell for DHD since it demolishes all of our projectiles, this kind of limits our camping prowess, so I do believe an aggressive-style helps in this MU to an extent, as long as you keep a balance between the two. Our best camping tool is that we can have a can come in over the fireballs, as long as you also keep them pressured from the front.
- DHDs edge-guarding game is very good, and Mario's recovery is very predictable, that means getting a nair or bair off-stage is one of your best bets for gaining the KO.
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Alright cool, thanks! Will be applying thisWe dropping the system of talking about the MU in the title or wut? Don't think anyone has any more Sonic advice, my best advice is pick a secondary. Why don't we go like the R.O.B. boards and make individual threads for our worst and hardest MUs? It'll be easier to get people from that character's board to come in and give advice, and it'll be easier to keep it on-topic. What do you think @
Mario is an odd character to give advice on since he's such a balanced all-rounder, to the point where the best advice would be based on habits that most Mario mains have, so I'll do dat:
This one's not really for help against common habits, but it's pretty much the main thing we have in the Mario MU.
- Marios tend to be very cape-happy against DHD players, one of the worst mistakes being that they attempt to cape the gunman's bullet, which works, except it won't hit DHD, it'll hit the gunman as long as you aren't in the way. This gives you an opportunity to get in against the Mario.
- At low percentages, keep a watchful eye for grabs, to the same extent you'd be wary of a Diddy player, because Mario can immediately take you to around 50% with up-tilt strings and up-b/up-smash. This is where being good at spot-dodging comes in helpful, you can expect the grab and dodge it, then grab them yourself for a throw follow-up.
- A fireball happy Mario is hell for DHD since it demolishes all of our projectiles, this kind of limits our camping prowess, so I do believe an aggressive-style helps in this MU to an extent, as long as you keep a balance between the two. Our best camping tool is that we can have a can come in over the fireballs, as long as you also keep them pressured from the front.
- DHDs edge-guarding game is very good, and Mario's recovery is very predictable, that means getting a nair or bair off-stage is one of your best bets for gaining the KO.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2011
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- 3,474
I'd be on board with that idea. Given that this is a board that doesn't see much activity for a character seldom used, having one big MU thread seems like it'd take forever for relevant activity to take place. I believe the Link boards do that too and have a stickied index that lists each thread. Sometime down the line, if someone feels like contributing/asking something relevant to a specific MU, they can do so in the individual thread rather than having to go off-topic in a centralized MU thread.We dropping the system of talking about the MU in the title or wut? Don't think anyone has any more Sonic advice, my best advice is pick a secondary. Why don't we go like the R.O.B. boards and make individual threads for our worst and hardest MUs? It'll be easier to get people from that character's board to come in and give advice, and it'll be easier to keep it on-topic. What do you think @
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Diamond DHD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
- Messages
- 272
Alright, Sonic MU thread is up:
http://smashboards.com/threads/duck-hunt-match-up-analysis-sonic.396611/
Next I say we do Rosalina, since it's not necessarily a very bad MU for us, but it's one a lot of us have trouble with it. I also put a poll up asking people who they thought had the advantage, I might do that for the rest depending on how well this one goes.
http://smashboards.com/threads/duck-hunt-match-up-analysis-sonic.396611/
Next I say we do Rosalina, since it's not necessarily a very bad MU for us, but it's one a lot of us have trouble with it. I also put a poll up asking people who they thought had the advantage, I might do that for the rest depending on how well this one goes.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2011
- Messages
- 3,474
@
WispBae
Since we seem to be doing separate pages of discussion now rather than all in one thread, would you be against turning the OP into an index? The Link boards seem to have done it nicely.
http://smashboards.com/threads/book-of-mu-dora-index.374493/
WispBae
Since we seem to be doing separate pages of discussion now rather than all in one thread, would you be against turning the OP into an index? The Link boards seem to have done it nicely.http://smashboards.com/threads/book-of-mu-dora-index.374493/
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
I'm down for it, I'll do it later tonight.@
http://smashboards.com/threads/book-of-mu-dora-index.374493/
Sorry I haven't been too active lately by the way. Life been busy, plus been working on this really in-depth custom move thingy. But I did make it 7th at a local weekly (of 37 entrants) with the doggy and villager combo! So I'm doing my best to make the pack proud!
edit: here are the results!
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WispBae
Tsundere Princess
@
Spirst
So I tried turning the thread into an index, but it seemed like way too much work considering there were only 2 specific threads about specific MU's. I would prefer to keep MU talk here so we could keep it all organized, though if others would like to make threads for problem characters that still have a lot of debate (insert all high tiers) I wouldn't mind.
I'm still totally up for voting for MU's and talking about them. If anything, I'll keep discussions about each character open for a week, and then change it every week, inviting people here to chat about it. Even if I'm the only one to join in the discussion, I'll still change it every week.
I think the next options should be...
Spirst
So I tried turning the thread into an index, but it seemed like way too much work considering there were only 2 specific threads about specific MU's. I would prefer to keep MU talk here so we could keep it all organized, though if others would like to make threads for problem characters that still have a lot of debate (insert all high tiers) I wouldn't mind.I'm still totally up for voting for MU's and talking about them. If anything, I'll keep discussions about each character open for a week, and then change it every week, inviting people here to chat about it. Even if I'm the only one to join in the discussion, I'll still change it every week.
I think the next options should be...
- Shiek
- RosaLuma
- Yoshi
Mr.Pikachu
Smash Journeyman
Yesss, plz lets discuss the DHD Yoshi MU. I just got destroyed by a yoshi main today, and I can never ever get any projectiles out cause he's always nairing me and even if I did I can't chase him into the air god it's so frustrating when the only option you have is to uair him and even that doesn't work. His fair is nasty and gimps our recovery ridiculously early.His dair destroys everything we have.... :/@
I'm still totally up for voting for MU's and talking about them. If anything, I'll keep discussions about each character open for a week, and then change it every week, inviting people here to chat about it. Even if I'm the only one to join in the discussion, I'll still change it every week.
I think the next options should be...
Unless anyone wants to suggest another MU to discuss. My vote is still for Yoshi, that damned dinosaur ruffles my feathers...
- Shiek
- RosaLuma
- Yoshi