Shulk custom moveset discussion 2.0

[Berserker.]

Updating soon

 

[Splash Damage]

Updating soon

Thanks. Sorry for pestering you about it, haha.

 

[Berserker.]

2 days left

Are we all good now?

 

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

I'm sure some people can debate a couple of the preferential sets a bit more, but it doesn't feel like anything huge is being left out, at least to me. I wonder if any character threads are still completely in chaos at this point.

 

[Berserker.]

Edit: Whatever never mind.

 

[Goesasu]

@ Berserker.

We have 1113 and 1123,so why do we have 1213 and 1223 too? backslash customs shouldnt deserve a set just because. Nobody has given true reasons to include leap bs outside of hyper monado arts on battlefield, and even that its streching it. Those sets are no game changing and therefore a waste of a set.

We have 5 sets for regular monado arts including niche, 3 for hyper and 2 for decisive. IMO decisive deserves the same representation of hyper, 3 sets also. Im happy with 2113 and 2133 making the cut, buy also believe that leaving out 2123 while keeping 1213 AND 1223 its a mistake. Even if 2123 its the worst combination for decisive arts( as i believe), you never know when someone over the world could surprise you. By recovering earlier and playing smart you can overcome the loss of vertical height of AAS and it could be even better while in decisive shield if you know what you are doing.

what if decisive eventualy becomes the norm for it being the better art (as i believe)? people only would have 2 sets to play it and that its just. wrong. Modifing all tourney wiius around the world just for shulk? its not going to happen, so if we make a mistake now we are screwed for good.

Air slash customs its a game changing decision unlike backslash customs, and for that reason only all combinations should be represented with every art.

For all of the above, 1213 or 1223 should be replaced by 2123.

 

[Splash Damage]

@ Berserker.
Air slash customs its a game changing decision unlike backslash customs, and for that reason only all combinations should be represented with every art.

For all of the above, 1213 or 1223 should be replaced by 2123.

Alright, so just replace 1213 with 2123? I honestly don't think that decisive lends itself well to being paiered with AAS, but I suppose we may as well just have it.
Also, there are guaranteed to be an almost infinite number of meta changes and subsequently custom set changes, so we can't concern ourselves with what have a slim chance of happening in the far future. We can't change too many sets based on a theory of "What if this maybe becomes good."

 

[Piford]

I don't think Decisive deserves more sets. It significantly hurts Shulk's playstyle by not being able to switch arts and can really hurt you if you mess up while in an art. Most players are going to want Standard or Hyper (I sense Hyper will become more and more popular among professionals as time goes on). You really hurt what Shulk can do with decisive arts. If it fits your play style, then by all means use it; that's why we have the sets it has. But, we should give more sets to a theoretically worse move on the basis that people might want to use it. If anything, we should be giving another set to Hyper arts, although I think having more sets with default arts early is better because it's not as, you know, extreme.

 

[Splash Damage]

So, let's have a vote on the final replacement set. Mine's cast for 3XX3.
2123(1 vote)
3XX3(1 vote)
1XX3(1 vote)

I don't think Decisive deserves more sets. It significantly hurts Shulk's playstyle by not being able to switch arts and can really hurt you if you mess up while in an art. Most players are going to want Standard or Hyper (I sense Hyper will become more and more popular among professionals as time goes on). You really hurt what Shulk can do with decisive arts. If it fits your play style, then by all means use it; that's why we have the sets it has. But, we should give more sets to a theoretically worse move on the basis that people might want to use it. If anything, we should be giving another set to Hyper arts, although I think having more sets with default arts early is better because it's not as, you know, extreme.

I wholeheartedly second this.

 

[Berserker.]

@ Berserker.

We have 1113 and 1123,so why do we have 1213 and 1223 too? backslash customs shouldnt deserve a set just because. Nobody has given true reasons to include leap bs outside of hyper monado arts on battlefield, and even that its streching it. Those sets are no game changing and therefore a waste of a set.

We have 5 sets for regular monado arts including niche, 3 for hyper and 2 for decisive. IMO decisive deserves the same representation of hyper, 3 sets also. Im happy with 2113 and 2133 making the cut, buy also believe that leaving out 2123 while keeping 1213 AND 1223 its a mistake. Even if 2123 its the worst combination for decisive arts( as i believe), you never know when someone over the world could surprise you. By recovering earlier and playing smart you can overcome the loss of vertical height of AAS and it could be even better while in decisive shield if you know what you are doing.

what if decisive eventualy becomes the norm for it being the better art (as i believe)? people only would have 2 sets to play it and that its just. wrong. Modifing all tourney wiius around the world just for shulk? its not going to happen, so if we make a mistake now we are screwed for good.

Air slash customs its a game changing decision unlike backslash customs, and for that reason only all combinations should be represented with every art.

For all of the above, 1213 or 1223 should be replaced by 2123.

Although I don't think we don't need that much decisive sets, there are some free slots because I think we should strike out any set with a non-default back slash being used

I also don't think that we should be using any back slash variants at all. Back slash will forever be flawed and situational/borderline useless because of its intended design. Back slash leap doesn't fix anything. Frame 28 is still frame 28. Plus, the slight horizontal leap of default BS actually helps against zoners. Although you'd bring up BSC, the front hitsun of that custom sucks so no.

The list I'm posting right now isn't the final list btw. Just my personal list. Just want your opinions (Now I think about it, THIS IS A REPOST OF MY LIST AT THE LAST PAGE lol)

Critical sets
1113
3113
2113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133

Niche
1122

Only included more MAS sets because I feel like we should mess around with it more. It's still a solid anti-air/OoS option despite the short range. Just hit air borne opponents with MAS, it's guaranteed to connect. Also, it has nice vertical KO power with Smash art activated and it deals insane amount of damage with buster.


Edit: Decisive is important because it's easy mode. Speed all day or buster all day. It's just the lack of techs that hurt its viability but being in buster or speed almost 100% of the time is hilarious

 

[Piford]

I'd rather see a 3122 for people that prefer hyper arts that want to deal with zoners rather than a 3rd set for decisive arts, especially if advancing air slash isn't even good with decisive.

Edit: Fixed some words.

 

[Berserker.]

I'd rather see a 3122 for people that prefer hyper arts that want to deal with zone breakers rather than a 3rd set for decisive arts, especially if advancing airs lash isn't even good with decisive.

I can actually agree with this

Yeah. Advancing air slash doesn't seem to be that useful with decisive. I'm willing to add 3122

 

[Splash Damage]

I disagree with that list. MAS does not need more than 1 set and neither does Decisive(barring the critical), and I feel like the formulaic All-Monados-With-All-Air-Slashes simply doesn't work for Shulk. MAS is a very poor OoS option due to it's pitiful range compared to the other AS options, and Shulk needs to have either AS or AAS to give himself a reliable OoS option. The Backslash variants have become an actually big part of many shulk's games, and having only one Backslash variant seems like a poor idea, as thy're no better or worse and all deserve representation due to MU usefullness. I don't think we should lock in the serious sets to his worst options for more than four of them(Worst options being MAS and DMA). Overall, I think we should go with the more varied list I compiled made up of suggestions from the shulk players here, not general ideas, that the Shulks have agreed to. That, and we're all to close to the deadline to make changes this big.
Critical sets
1113
3113
2113

Preferential sets
1123
XX13(We need another normal AS set)
1223
2133
3123
3213

Niche
1122

Beyond that, I think this list is pretty solid. I'm definitely curious to see how much Dash Vision will actually help against zoners.

I agree with the amount of normal air slashes now (too many MAS earlier)

 

[Berserker.]

Well, whatever works. I'm somewhat indifferent to customs so do what you want. I guess. I'm fine with anything. Just saying that back slash blows.

Whatever is final, I'll go with it. You guys decide

 

[Splash Damage]

Well, whatever works. I'm somewhat indifferent to customs so do what you want. I guess. I'm fine with anything. Just saying that back slash blows.

Whatever is final, I'll go with it. You guys decide

Dont get me wrong, I know it sucks lol
and there's gotta be a gif for that

So, do we think we should use My list or Berserker's list?

 

[erico9001]

Dont get me wrong, I know it sucks lol
and there's gotta be a gif for that

So, do we think we should use My list or Berserker's list?

Your sets look okay to me. Most of them are sets I actually would maybe use.

I have some not pressing constructive criticism about it.
>I say the niche should have decisive arts. Having lots of Monado Jump would be great for Link and lots of Monado Speed or Jump would be great for Mega Man. These sorts of match-ups are exactly why we would be using dash vision in the first place!

I'd rather see a 3122 for people that prefer hyper arts that want to deal with zoners rather than a 3rd set for decisive arts, especially if advancing air slash isn't even good with decisive.

Edit: Fixed some words.

I can actually agree with this

Yeah. Advancing air slash doesn't seem to be that useful with decisive. I'm willing to add 3122

How so? Is it the poor low edgeguarding (especially while in Monado Speed)? Is it that AAS is worse at Monado Jump recovery than the others? Otherwise, AAS is the best for decisive arts.

-For decisive jump, AAS has very few issues connecting the two hits. Works on Bowser and Fox with no rage effect. The only complication is the tipper. Oh, and Shield Shulk. Although, normal AAS does work on Shield Shulk, surprisingly.
-Since you cannot switch out of your art and into Monado Jump for recovery, you want the better recovery that AAS has with Buster, Smash, Shield, and possibly Vanilla. Its Monado Speed recovery is slightly better than MAS and slightly worse than AS.
-Elaborating on Monado Shield + AAS, the opponent has a really hard time killing you. You can be hit very far, near off camera, and still recovery without a jump while in Monado Shield. Given decisive shield's lower knockback taken and how you only need to be off of Monado Shield for a few seconds before it comes back up, you can live to ridiculously high percents.

Those are the advantages in relation to decisive arts. All the other advantages (safety, etc) still apply.

 

[Splash Damage]

Niche: 2122 or 1122?

 

[Goesasu]

@ Splash Damage backslash blows period, no custom can fix that. It hasnt become part of anything, if you can show any video were a backslash custom has been useful please do it.I cant accept wasting sets just for backslash variants, just cant-

@eirco9001 AAS its very good while in decisive vanilla, buster and shield. The thing is that with decisive you never ever stay on vanilla, you use buster at the beginning of the match were you are not going to be sent far far away to make a difference. You are only going to sent far away while in decisive speed and AAS its bad while on it for recovery due to the fast acceleration.
Decisive shield is another story, it is very true that AAS with decisive shield its very very nice and you became very hard to kill.

As I said before, monado arts and air slash variants are what defines shulk playstyles not backslash in any form or way. (Also power vision with everything).

Even if AAS while on decisive is not the best option, it is still a very decent option that allows decisive shield shulk to truly shine.
A lot better that wasting sets in backslash variant. 2123 should be a thing over useless backslash sets.

 

[Splash Damage]

@ Splash Damage backslash blows period, no custom can fix that. It hasnt become part of anything, if you can show any video were a backslash custom has been useful please do it.I cant accept wasting sets just for backslash variants, just cant-

There aren't any sets specifically tailored to a backslash variant, with the exception of 3213. The only reason for that is that 3213 actually has a good niche:BSL with HBuster does tremendous shield damage and can even break well preserved shields when sweetspotted. I got this set off of a reccomendation from an actual Shulk player in this thread, not a general statement. There are currently no other sets that are there solely for a Backslash variant, and I even removed one which was like that to your suggestion, so saying that this list is "Wasting slots" for Backslash is an incorrect statement.
That, and having a list that uses a backslash variant only twice in the entire list is no reason to go against it.

 

[Goesasu]

@ Splash Damage
im against 1213 and 1223 because 1113 and 1123 already exist. Those are sets oriented just because of backslash leap.

i have nothing against 3213. If hyper buster can break shields when sweetspotted im ok with it. But regular monado art cant, so there is no reason for 1213 and 1223 to exist.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I would have no objection to the Hyper Leap set being a niche set. BSL is definitely a niche attack; I just really like it and wanted to see it on at least one set and discovering that it can bust shields made me like it even more. I'd be cool with:

Critical sets
1113
3113
2113

Preferential sets
1123
XX13
XXX3 (Perhaps a second MAS set? Or more love for Decisive arts?)
2133
3123

Niche
3213
1/2122

 

[MonadBro]

I would like to mention the load out of 2313 , the black slash charge is really good for recovery, especially because of the super armor aspects, and I think this set should precedence over one of the decisive Monado arts ones. Furthermore, I don't understand why we are not including any sets with dash counter, this is extremely viable against projectile users and would be nice to replace of a niche or hyper Monado set. However, can we please discuss 2313 as soon as possible , this is an important load out for me and many other Shulk players and I feel it's not justifiable to not include it. Thank you.

Example of the utilization of Dash Counter:
http://gfycat.com/BelatedBasicHartebeest

 

[Plain Yogurt]

We do have a dash counter set though?

I don't personally think having a Charge set just for the sake of an extra recovery mixup is worth it, since the end lag of the move might just get you punished anyways. It may be situationally handy for decisive Shulk if he gets stuck in Shield off stage, but even then I'd call it iffy since Charge has almost no worth as an attack.

Also I find it odd that you seem to not like Decisive Arts while recommending a set using Decisive Arts.

 

[MonadBro]

We do have a dash counter set though?

I don't personally think having a Charge set just for the sake of an extra recovery mixup is worth it, since the end lag of the move might just get you punished anyways. It may be situationally handy for decisive Shulk if he gets stuck in Shield off stage, but even then I'd call it iffy since Charge has almost no worth as an attack.

Also I find it odd that you seem to not like Decisive Arts while recommending a set using Decisive Arts.

If recovering right the end lag wouldn't be that punishable, it's also great mix up approach against projectile users, I do feel this set is completely viable and should be included, as many people utilize this set including me.

It's a good approach mix up if someone has his back towards you as well, a quick unsuspecting charge will send the opponent flying, obviously easily adaptable but getting the opponent caught by it once or twice can really shift the tide of the match, the knockback is really great in that situation.

 

[Goesasu]

@ MonadBro

We do have a dash counter set though?

I don't personally think having a Charge set just for the sake of an extra recovery mixup is wor

We do have a dash counter set though?

I don't personally think having a Charge set just for the sake of an extra recovery mixup is worth it, since the end lag of the move might just get you punished anyways. It may be situationally handy for decisive Shulk if he gets stuck in Shield off stage, but even then I'd call it iffy since Charge has almost no worth as an attack.

Also I find it odd that you seem to not like Decisive Arts while recommending a set using Decisive Arts.

Any issue for recovering whilr in decisive is fixed by MAS. BSC its unneeded.

Even AAS covers what BSC has to offer.

 

[MonadBro]

@ MonadBro



Any issue for recovering whilr in decisive is fixed by MAS. BSC its unneeded.

Even AAS covers what BSC has to offer.

Please refer to my previous post on why the set is important to include, especially over the niche set. Thank you

 

[Splash Damage]

@ Splash Damage
im against 1213 and 1223 because 1113 and 1123 already exist. Those are sets oriented just because of backslash leap.

i have nothing against 3213. If hyper buster can break shields when sweetspotted im ok with it. But regular monado art cant, so there is no reason for 1213 and 1223 to exist.

1213 doesn't exist, the only reason it's still there is because the list on the front page is outdated. Though, after testing, a sweetspotted BSL using normal Buster can still come very close to breaking a shield, and if you're using Buster chances are their shield is already in a bad spot anyway, making shield breaks still possible
and likely if you know what you're doing. That, and we need another AS set to for the preferentials just to give it some exposure, as it only has 3 sets outside of niches. So, I'll get rid of 1223, really not a spectacular set.
Critical sets
1113
3113
2113

Preferential sets
1123
1213
3213
2133
3123

Niche
1122
2122/XXX2

 

[MonadBro]

1213 doesn't exist, the only reason it's still there is because the list on the front page is outdated. Though, after testing, a sweetspotted BSL using normal Buster can still come very close to breaking a shield, and if you're using Buster chances are their shield is already in a bad spot anyway, making shield breaks still possible
and likely if you know what you're doing. That, and we need another AS set to for the preferentials just to give it some exposure, as it only has 3 sets outside of niches. So, I'll get rid of 1223, really not a spectacular set.
Critical sets
1113
3113
2113

Preferential sets
1123
1213
3213
2133
3123

Niche
1122
2122/XXX2

Can we please discuss the inclusion of 2313, I made points regarding it's inclusion and it's a set that's extremely important to me and many other Shulk users.

 

[Splash Damage]

Can we please discuss the inclusion of 2313, I made points regarding it's inclusion and it's a set that's extremely important to me and many other Shulk users.

2313 has power counter, not Dash Counter. 2312 is what you're thinking of, and I don't think many other Shulks will be using that set. X3XX is alright for covering landings and getting a not-too-spectacular attack off, but it really doesn't bring much to warrant.

 

[MonadBro]

2313 has power counter, not Dash Counter. 2312 is what you're thinking of, and I don't think many other Shulks will be using that set. X3XX is alright for covering landings and getting a not-too-spectacular attack off, but it really doesn't bring much to warrant.

@ Splash Damage I don't want Dash counter, I'm talking about Decisive with Advancing Back Slash. You can ignore my dash counter point, I realize what 2313 is and would like to discuss it's inclusion please.

I have entered many tourneys , and this is coming from my experience as a Shulk user.

 

[Splash Damage]

We've come to the conclusion that we don't want to include a custom set for the sole purpose of a backslash variant, and especially not Charging, as it is very lackluster compared to the others. We recently ruled out 1313 for the same reason.

 

[Piford]

Why would I ever want to use Decisive monado arts against a zoner? It basically nulls buster since if I ever get in a position where I can be zoned and I'm in buster than I'm in an awful position, speed isn't nearly as useful when getting in because of the methodicalness of the projectiles, and decisive shield and smash are always risky. Pretty much only decisive jump is good, and I think standard jump works just fine.

 

[Splash Damage]

Why would I ever want to use Decisive monado arts against a zoner? It basically nulls buster since if I ever get in a position where I can be zoned and I'm in buster than I'm in an awful position, speed isn't nearly as useful when getting in because of the methodicalness of the projectiles, and decisive shield and smash are always risky. Pretty much only decisive jump is good, and I think standard jump works just fine.

Okay, what do you think the second niche should take the place of 2122 should be?

 

[MonadBro]

We've come to the conclusion that we don't want to include a custom set for the sole purpose of a backslash variant, and especially not Charging, as it is very lackluster compared to the others. We recently ruled out 1313 for the same reason.

May I ask how many people ruled it out? There are so many different play styles and to eliminate a good majority of them because you find it lackluster isn't quite cutting it, my voice should be heard as well, I mentioned my points regarding it's inclusion and why it's important to me and many other Shulk users that you haven't addressed yet.

 

[MonadBro]

Why would I ever want to use Decisive monado arts against a zoner? It basically nulls buster since if I ever get in a position where I can be zoned and I'm in buster than I'm in an awful position, speed isn't nearly as useful when getting in because of the methodicalness of the projectiles, and decisive shield and smash are always risky. Pretty much only decisive jump is good, and I think standard jump works just fine.

How about you stick with Speed and Jump as decisive arts against Zoners, those are really good considering the low trade offs, I don't even use buster in the situation you mention and I manage to come out very successful. Like I said there's many different play styles and you aren't quite covering my and many other's as this project is supposed to be doing!

 

[Splash Damage]

May I ask how many people ruled it out? There are so many different play styles and to eliminate a good majority of them because you find it lackluster isn't quite cutting it, my voice should be heard as well, I mentioned my points regarding it's inclusion and why it's important to me and many other Shulk users that you haven't addressed yet.

I didn't find it lackluster, it was my preffered set for a long time. All you have to do is look through this thread, all the info you want about the backslashes and how we discussed why to remove certain sets is already right here.

 

[Piford]

Okay, what do you think the second niche should take the place of 2122 should be?

3122 or some other set thats made for a tough matchup.

 

[MonadBro]

I didn't find it lackluster, it was my preffered set for a long time. All you have to do is look through this thread, all the info you want about the backslashes and how we discussed why to remove certain sets is already right here.

My points haven't been specifically addressed, this is a set that a lot of people utilize , and we need to discuss it fairly before the deadline, as it's really important to me and many other Shulk players.

 

[Splash Damage]

3122 or some other set thats made for a tough matchup.

I can see that working very smoothly.
Critical sets
1113
3113
2113

Preferential sets
1123
1213
3213
2133
3123

Niche
1122
3122

 

[Splash Damage]

My points haven't been specifically addressed, this is a set that a lot of people utilize , and we need to discuss it fairly before the deadline, as it's really important to me and many other Shulk players.

I haven't seejn any shulks use this, and iu haven't even heard any suggest it before you. 2113 already exists, and the Shulks here have agreed to not make a whole full new set for the sole purpose of having Backslash variants present.