Shulk custom moveset discussion 2.0

[erico9001]

@berseker01 As long as 2133 makes the cut i dont care if its a critical or preference set. Thank you.

I also used to believe that Advancing Airslash would be better with decisive arts because of the extra horizontal recovery of the second hit, but in practice it is uneeded and usually leads to suicides.

If you're suiciding, you must be doing something wrong. It's key that when you are using AAS and need more recovery distance, that you do not recover low. Use AAS when your feet are somewhat above the ground for the best recovery. After then, the only reason you go lower is to snap onto the edge if you can, for extra safety, or do a mix up and actually do recover low (in which case you either use just the first slash or make sure to space the first and second out enough so you can make it to the edge).

Its uneeded because when you are on decisive speed you already have enough horizontal movibility to get the ledge even from far far away.

Using my table, Speed is worse for MAS than when in AAS or AS. I have not tested Decisive Speed yet, but I imagine that this is still the case.

When you are on decisive shield you wont be thrown offstage far enough to desperate need that horizontal recovery (unless you are on like 180% of course).

I doubt that decisive shield is that great at lowering your knockback. I still think it's likely you will have times where you will need to recover, but will find you cannot without AAS. I would love some numbers on this or something.

But you will always need the extra vertical recovery that Mighty Airslash gives you (about half of shulks body), always. It patches the jump height loss of speed and shield and lets you edgeguard deeper.

Having a more vertical recovery is worse while in arts that do not adjust your air speed or fall speed. Mighty air slash is worst unless if in monado jump.

If you pair up regular or decisive shield or speed with AAS the vertical height loss of those arts and AAS will make you pay and die sooner than expected.

The chart shows that no it won't.

I did extensive testing with AAS and i cant recommend it over regular Air Slash in any set or way, it has it niche uses but overall its far from being better than regular.

Really? What did you do?

Now i must ask, have you people given a try to Mighty Air Slash? I have to ask because it is better than Regular Air Slash in almost every way and it should be in more (if not all) sets. Let me explain why:


Mighty Air Slash pros vs Regular Air slash
1.- Mighty does 5% more damage than regular
2.- Mighty leads to vertical kills, so it kills sooner than regular that kills in a 45% degree angle. (see pits upperdash arm vs dark pits electroshock arm)
3.- Mighty has extra vertical recovery height about half of shulks body. Lets you recover safer and edge guard better. This helps to recover better in regular or decisive speed or shield and completely replaces monado jump so you will never need it to recover, but if you want to fight while in it be my guest.

Regular Air slash pros vs Mighty Air Slash
1.- Its easier to link the second hit with regular than with Mighty. Once you practice enough with Mightys timing you will see that this can be overcomed and connecting the second hit will be second nature.
2.- Regular has more hit range than Mighty. Completly true and its the one and only true advantage that regular has over Mighty, but Mighty still has enough range (similar to f-tilt) to hit OOS or out of spot dodge or as a punishing option, and unlike regular it can lead to a kill in less %.

These are the 5 differences between them.

Make you choice and tell me why would anyone prefer regular air slash over mighty because i cant see any good reason for doing that.

1) Indeed.

2) I would think it would be dependent on stage position. Let's see about this. The kill percent of MAS against Mario is 127% (top blast zone). From training mode spawn point, it is 110% with normal air slash. Then, from center stage, it is 143%.

So, yeah, generally while on the stage MAS does have better kill percents. However, it's worse when nearing the sides of the stage, and even worse as an edgeguarding tool. I guess pick what you prefer.

3) I still need to check out decisive arts in combination with the up B customs, but for normal arts, MAS will be worse for recovery than the other customs unless in monado jump. This is because of MAS's almost complete lack of horizontal movement. You must get closer to the edge before you can use MAS. During this time that you are getting closer, you are also falling lower. This effectively eliminates the extra vertical height which MAS has.

The theoretical reason why it is easiest to recover with Shield (and Buster/Smash/Vanila) while in AAS, worse in AS, and worst in MAS is the horizontal movement of AS and AAS allows you to use the move earlier. Shield's drift speed has a poor angle from which it falls, much lower than 45°, so any horizontal distance really matters.

For off-stage attacking, yes, mighty air slash can go very low. However, it can't go very far out, so it's a trade off. In most circumstances, normal air slash can go as low as is needed with mighty air slash. That low of recovery isn't needed. Furthermore, normal air slash can go a lot farther out. For most cases, AS is probably better. AAS does have some issues with the very deep edgeguards, but is still not bad, having the same height as normal air slash's first strike. AAS is really good for... surprise surprise, horizontal edgeguarding.

1) Indeed. You're right about the hits connecting with MAS. Unlike other customs, the opponent continues to rise, so that when you delay the two hits you can hit them. That's a smart move by the developers. Indeed, mighty air slash even works on Bowser. However.. using it while in monado jump is a completely different story. You go much too high.

2) Yep. The ability to actually get the hit on the opponent is lesser thanks to the lack of range. MAS is nice if you land it, but are you going to land it? It depends. There will be more instances where AS or AAS will hit and MAS will not.

@ erico9001 There is no need for fancy science or custom maps to realize that MAS has the best vertical height recovery of the up b. MAS is the only one that can get to the top platform of battlefield with no jumping and without the second hit of air slash. Default AS cant make it without the second hit and AAS cant even make it with both hits!

MAS has the best vertical height of the up b, which is vital while in decisive speed or shield due to the inhability to change to jump.

Also the following its not true:
"If purely looking at recovery, the advantage of AAS is it allows you to not have to switch out of Buster, Smash, and especially Shield as often."

AAS has the worst vertical height of the up b, it cant even get to the top platform of battlefield with both hits!.
imagine that scenario with decisive shield o decisive speed while recovering low........no thanks.

MAS has more uses and credit that you give it, even for pure recovery. Check my other posts in this same page (4) abouth the matter.

I've read your post.

That part which I said is definitely true and proven.

That's all I have for now. I still have a lot of other posts in this thread to catch up on!

 

[Goesasu]

@ erico9001 Decisive speed gives you enough horizontal mobility to justify the trade off for waiting to use MAS, so waiting to get closer to the edge its not an issue.

AAS has its merits, but pairing it with decisive monado arts its not a good idea because you cant change to jump and it is a fact that AAS has the worst vertical height of the three up b. MAS is what replaces the jump art for decisive monado arts, without it decisive cant patch its design shortcoming, the inhability to change to jump to recover low.

 

[Splash Damage]

What do you guys think about using different MA's for certain matchups? For example, maybe default is preferred for one MU, but Hyper for another. I'm thinking maybe Hyper Arts and using Smash to quickly edgeguard Mac, but with how light it makes you it's risky. Maybe Decisive or Hyper Shield to avoid all combos from combo heavy characters? I'd like to hear everyones opinion on how different MA's might be better for certain MUs and how that would impact which set we use.

I think HMA is spectacular for Zoners, as the short lasting time of the Arts is made less of a blatant issue due to the inability to get in on Zoners very long anyway, as well as being able to do huge damage in a short time(Buster), maneuver through their Zone to get in on them(Jump/Speed), be able to keep yourself at lower percents to make their stalling game less effective(Defense), and also be able to take off stocks earlier, lowering the amount of times you need to get through their zone in the first place(Smash). DMA seems to be really only fit when paired with MAS, another uncommon and borderline downgrade(when not paired with DMA)custom. This ends up making Shulk have very different Niches, almost giving him a completely different playstyle. That being said, I don't really see it making him any better or worse in any MUs, leading me to believe it to be a sidegrade. MA and HMA are going to likely be swapped with each other in specific MUs, HMA likely used against characters like Rosalina whose Zones can easily be broken by dynamically moving characters. MA is almost certainly going to be the most common, however.

 

[Masonomace]

What do you guys think about using different MA's for certain matchups? For example, maybe default is preferred for one MU, but Hyper for another. I'm thinking maybe Hyper Arts and using Smash to quickly edgeguard Mac, but with how light it makes you it's risky. Maybe Decisive or Hyper Shield to avoid all combos from combo heavy characters? I'd like to hear everyones opinion on how different MA's might be better for certain MUs and how that would impact which set we use.

Example:

Which Monado Art Custom do we use? Any of them but preferably Decisive Smash or Hyper Smash. When you notice Lucario's damage meter rising up to 60% or higher, cycle to DSmash or HSmash after you gather enough stage control. When that's done, make him fear you to the point he has to respect it. A grab > F-throw / B-throw / D-throw will teach him a lesson, & Hyper Smash should force him trying to camp you for 6 seconds if he's not playing careful. If your Hyper Smash finishes & you didn't confirm the stock, cycle to another Art & maintain having stage control to lead to taking his stock. Taking out Lucario's first stock quicker really puts him behind since he doesn't scale much anymore (the scaling is very tiny don't worry about it) from being behind on stocks like he used to in Brawl.

Edit: In other words, you're ruining the character's Aura momentum prematurely by a long shot. A Smash Art especially Hyper Smash strikes terror.

(Cast your votes for the Niche pls)

+1 vote for 1122

Edit: Personally it was hard to decide because I like DArts & AAS. AAS chose me I suppose.

 

[erico9001]

@ erico9001 Decisive speed gives you enough horizontal mobility to justify the trade off for waiting to use MAS, so waiting to get closer to the edge its not an issue.

Yeah. However, Decisive speed will be better for all forms of recovery, not just MAS. What I'm doing is comparing it to AAS. I should probably get an angle of inclination for decisive speed, so I can have a fully concrete understanding of which is better with decisive speed. My prediction is AAS, but who knows?

AAS has its merits, but pairing it with decisive monado arts its not a good idea because you cant change to jump and it is a fact that AAS has the worst vertical height of the three up b. MAS is what replaces the jump art for decisive monado arts, without it decisive cant patch its design shortcoming, the inhability to change to jump to recover low.

I know what you are saying here. At first, it sounds great that MAS has higher distance it travels and therefore has better recovery, but that is without knowledge that MAS has almost no horizontal movement. When considering how it has almost no horizontal movement, you realize you must get closer to the edge. When you must get closer to the edge, you end up lower. When you are lower, it takes more vertical height to go higher. That extra vertical height you orignally had is effectively cancelled out, and, when used in practice (what my chart measures), it turns out the MAS does not have the amazing recovery it seems like it would have.

As you've said, you can't switch to Jump while in decisive arts. This is actually the one art where MAS has better recovery than AAS, and the only one where it is tied with AS. AAS is the best for situations where you cannot just switch to jump, as it is the best for recovering while in Buster, Smash, Shield, and Vanilla. In the experiment, it also is shown that MAS is the worst custom move at recovering while in Monado Speed. The only flaw with this is while I have checked normal Speed, I have not checked Decisive Speed. There is a chance that Decisive Speed does not work better for AAS than MAS. I'll get to testing it now.

----------------------------------------------

New post

Okay, new table includes decisive stuff. I decided to measure just the jump with the custom Air Slash. I also fixed it so that the lower part of the stage is now the one with the more soft platforms, meaning more accurate results. So I went back and fixed some of the previous results.

Form of recovery| Monado Jump's fall angle | Monado Speed's angle | Vanilla's angle|Decisive Jump's angle|Decisive Speed's Angle
Just drifting|42°|40°|49.6°
Drift with an air jump|18°|25.4°|35.9°
Drift with Air Slash|16.7°|16.7°|34°
Drift with Advancing Air Slash|21.8°|16.7°|29.9°
Drift with Mighty Air Slash|16.7°|18°|35°
Drift, air jump, and Air Slash|–14°|-1.4°|11.3°|-18°|-2.9°
Drift, air jump, and Advancing Air Slash|–9.9°|-1.4°|5.7°|-12.7°|-1.4
Drift, air jump, and Mighty Air Slash|–15.4°|0°|15.4°|-18°|0°

What we now see is mighty air slash actually does have the best monado jump recovery. Before, it had to be labeled the same as normal air slash. The difference between then and now is less than 1/4 of Shulk's body, but hey, it's a difference! The same trend still is there for the other arts.

Now going to decisive jump, you see that AS and MAS are labelled as the same. This basically an improved version of the pattern there was previously. Nothing out of the ordinary. Decisive speed is surprising, because it actually makes very little difference. The only up B move I could pick up a difference with is normal Air Slash.

So yep. Hyper arts will be more interesting, I think.

 

[Berserker.]

@ erico9001

I merged your double post

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The actual thing to note is that recovering low becomes a tendency to avoid certain options. You recover early with AAS to use its horizontal but this also makes it easier to contest then simply sliding up the ledge with AS or MAS.

 

[kenniky]

So from what I can gather our current sets are:

Critical sets
1113
3113
2113
Preferential sets
1123
1313
1213
2133
3123
3213
Niche set
1122/2112

which looks pretty good. For the niche set, 1122 seems to be a little bit better although I don't think it's that big of a deal as it's called niche for a reason.

We should probably consider characters that could pose a problem in customs and are pretty widely used

Superbig example is who gets lots of buffs with customs (Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bits)

Thoughts:
Hyper Arts could be useful although I think Decisive and Normal Arts are better (Luma's sweetspotted utilt kills HSmash at like 30% 0_o making it super unsafe)
Dash Vision could potentially be useful to punish Shooting Star Bits & Luma zoning in general
Of course all Air Slashes have potential. MAS I think is the worst in this matchup because if Rosalina has Luma close to her MAS isn't going to do jack in terms of offense. Shulk's recovery is already pretty solid so I feel like MAS wouldn't be much good against her. AAS has the ability to break the Luma-zoning though so I guess that would be the most useful
Obviously Back Slashes are generally useless but imo BSC has the most potential, we can use it to punish Launch Star which has landing lag but goes pretty far and also get past Luma wall both on and off stage

so like 1322/2322? idk theorycrafting
(btw _322 is good zone-breaking set)

Also, how are customs going to be incorporated? Do you choose your customs when you choose your character, or after both players have chosen their characters, or what? Otherwise we could have a never ending cycle of custom countering

 

[VentusAlpha]

I am for 1122 mainly because of the mixup potential it has with AAS. Like I said before, you don't need to always recover high as the first slash travels just as far as the first slash of AS. Plus with SMArts it gives it a versatility that I don't like about DMArts which would make dealing with a campy character better. Even with BSC we have a long reach with the Manado so we wouldn't really need it. I say that because just without customs I have a relatively easy time with Rosaluma. Luma Warp could be a bit disorientating but I feel like I could get used to the timing if I had practice against it. Shooting Star Bits...DV will take care of that easily. I also just ignore Luma for the most part because of the range I have with the Manado. I can do damage to both without too much trouble. Not saying it's an easy match up cause it's a pain without DV and AAS.

 

[erico9001]

1122... 2112... Why not 2122?

 

[Berserker.]

We don't need more than 2 sets for DMArts since they aren't as versatile as MArts or HMarts. We also don't need 1213 since back slash leap doesn't really benefit from default buster that much. It's definitely much more effective with Hyper arts.

Tbh, back slash variants aren't really all that useful and back slash (default) should probably be the mainstream back slash. We probably only need Back Slash charge for one set (zone breaking) and that's about it. Back slash leap may come out earlier than BS or BSC, but it still comes out at frame 28 which is ridiculously slow.

We can play around with the air slash and monado art customs. Mighty air slash + Hyper smash is really good for KO'ing and Mighty air slash + Hyper buster deals a LOT of damage. Power vision+Hyper buster can be used to deal quick damage. From using Power vision with HBuster, you can swtich to HSmash for KO'ing. Power vision+Hyper smash can be used to easily take a stock. Hyper arts simply synergizes really well with mighty air slash and power vision. I'd vouch for 3133 to replace 3213. We can have 3123 for preferential purposes

 

[Goesasu]

We don't need more than 2 sets for DMArts since they aren't as versatile as MArts or HMarts. We also don't need 1213 since back slash leap doesn't really benefit from default buster that much. It's definitely much more effective with Hyper arts.

Tbh, back slash variants aren't really all that useful and back slash (default) should probably be the mainstream back slash. We probably only need Back Slash charge for one set (zone breaking) and that's about it. Back slash leap may come out earlier than BS or BSC, but it still comes out at frame 28 which is ridiculously slow.

We can play around with the air slash and monado art customs. Mighty air slash + Hyper smash is really good for KO'ing and Mighty air slash + Hyper buster deals a LOT of damage. Power vision+Hyper buster can be used to deal quick damage. From using Power vision with HBuster, you can swtich to HSmash for KO'ing. Power vision+Hyper smash can be used to easily take a stock. Hyper arts simply synergizes really well with mighty air slash and power vision. I'd vouch for 3133 to replace 3213. We can have 3123 for preferential purposes

I completely agree that default backslash should be used in 9 of the 10 sets. Only the zone breaker niche set should use backslash charge. Same reasoning, no set should be given just for the sake of a custom backslash thats not only niche, but doubtfully useful and worse than default in most scenarios.

This frees a lot of space in our sets, that should be replaced:

Out: 3213; 1313; 1213;

In: 1133; 2123; 3133

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113
Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133
Niche set
1322

This means that every combination of every monado art with every air slash variant is represented, all with power vision. IMO this is the best possible outcome for everyone, for those who are here and the silent voices around the world. This allows us to choose not only by "best" sets but also by player preference.

Previously I said that pairing decisive monado arts with AAS was a bad idea (2123). I would like to rectify that, its just the least ideal combination but not a bad one. By changing the way you recover and playing smart you can somehow overcome the loss of vertical height and even benefit, while in decisive shield, of the improvement in horizontal recovery of ASS. Still, I would choose 2133 or 2113 over this one, but I can see someone using this one in some stages like battlefield or smashville.

As long as we eliminate custom backslashs sets, then I sugest incorporate this option. If for any reason, we decide to only give 2 sets for decisive monado arts then this should be the one to be left behind.

As long as we all agree that customs backslash doesnt deserve to be special snowflakes with their own sets, there is no reason for not having every combination of every monado art paired with every AS variant.

 

[Berserker.]

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113
Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133
Niche set
1322

My only gripe with this is that our niche set should be 1312. To play it safe, let's stick with default air slash

Alright. I think this is our final set list. Hopefully, there are no objections with this one (This is subjected to being changed until the 17th of March):

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133

Niche sets
1312

 

[DavemanCozy]

1113 and 3113 are the ones I've been using the most. I prefer regular air slash over AAS, and I like being able to switch monados.

I wanna try back slashes more though.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

The only argument I've got left for BSL beyond what I've already said is that with Hyper Buster it can break a near-full shield if you hit the sweetspot. @ Masonomace mentioned wittling down the shield first but with Hyper you don't even need to do that. Still situational and read-based, but I just thought I'd mention it.

Also I feel like we've got a disconnect. Berserker's list was posted last page, we talked over some things, like how MAS didn't necessarily improve recovery all that much, how pairing AAS and Decisive arts wasn't that great an idea, and how BSC is actually a pretty crummy move even with the super armor...and then we ended up with the exact same list anyways? Not saying its a bad list or anything cause getting every Air Slash with every Monado variant is cool, but I just wonder what the point of the whole last page of discussion was.

 

[Goesasu]

@ Plain Yogurt To me that discussion let us realize that every AS variant has its own merit, just like every monado arts. Allowing all combinations seems very rational now, not just for the sake of it. This allows to truly choose the set that you prefer the most, without giving up monado arts or recovery options, the most important reasons to choose a set.

I even changed my mind about decisive arts with AAS, my least favorite pairing of the decives sets, but its not bad by any means (as i used to thought) and someone could use it.

Also the more we discuss backslash, the more i think we are all realizing that default its just the best option for every set except niche. So far no custom backslash has proven to be truly useful outside rare scenarios to justify its own special set that could compromise the perfect balance that we have reached so far.

 

[Splash Damage]

So far, this is what I have:
Critical sets
1113
3113
2113
Preferential sets
1123
1313
1213
2133
3123
3213
Niche:
1122 (3 votes)/1312(2 votes)
DMArts don't need more than 2 sets, and MAS is the least useful of the Up Bs by a small margin, making it the least likely to be used due to hugely lackluster range in comparison to the other options. I have noticed the desire for 1312 as a niche, so I changed the voting options.
Then, we have another list:
Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133

Niche sets
1312
IMO, the variant backlashes definitely deserve to be used. They should not, however, alter the rest of the sets they are used in. Due to how similar they all are and how rarely they're used, I doubt it will make too huge a difference other than MU usage(Ex:Backslashing in the other direction as a Ganondorf/C.Falcon Down-Bs or Fox/Falco Side-Bs, or even a Sonic Spindash)

So, here's my attempt at a compromise:
Critical sets
1113
3113
2113
Preferential sets
1123
1313
1223/1233(1 vote 1223, no votes 1233)
2133
3123
3213/3233(1 vote 3213, no votes 3233)

Niche:
1122 (4 votes)/1312(2 votes)
Removed 1213 and added an option for either 1223 or 1233. BSL doesn't reach its full potential unless used with Hyper, so the set being just there to have a 1213 BSL was moot. I honestly don't think MAS needs any more sets than this, but I digress, the votes are open.
I added 3233 as an option if anyone wants to have HMA paired with all airslash options. Again, I honestly dont think that MAS is great when paired without DMA, but if anyone disagrees then the votes are open.

Also I feel like we've got a disconnect. Berserker's list was posted last page, we talked over some things, like how MAS didn't necessarily improve recovery all that much, how pairing AAS and Decisive arts wasn't that great an idea, and how BSC is actually a pretty crummy move even with the super armor...and then we ended up with the exact same list anyways? Not saying its a bad list or anything cause getting every Air Slash with every Monado variant is cool, but I just wonder what the point of the whole last page of discussion was.

My concern exactly, I feel like there's a bit of two-sidedness and we shouldn't jump to any "final group of sets" conclusions like we have been.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

1223/1233(1 vote 1223, no votes 1233)
I dislike MAS so I'd pick 1223.

3213/3233(1 vote 3213, no votes 3233)
Again, I dislike MAS so I'd pick 3213. Though I'm not a huge fan of Hyper Arts, I agree that BSL would synergize with it the most, as it can shield break with Hyper Buster and I believe it has the most knockback of the three for Hyper Smash thanks to its 18% sweetspot (Damage DOES factor into knockback, correct?). If we only get one BSL set this is the one I'd use.

Niche:
1122 (4 votes)/1312(2 votes)
I question how much worth AAS has as a zone break option, but I also think BSC is mostly too awkward to use (I'm gonna super armor through your attack to hit you with my wimpy front hitbox! Oh shoot I got punished on hit for that...). I am indifferent.

My personal thoughts on @ Splash Damage 's list:
1313 isn't a good set imo. I can't imagine BSC being worth it on its own. I say put it with dash vision for the niche set or just leave it out completely. I'd say we add another set for the MAS crowd here, personally.

Beyond that, I think this list is pretty solid. I'm definitely curious to see how much Dash Vision will actually help against zoners.

EDIT: Do we know if any Shulks on Smash Boards are competing at EVO? Have they given their input already?

 

[Piford]

I vote 1223 and 3213 because I think the lack of range on MAS is not worth the extra damage and slight recovery.

I also vote 1122 because Back Slash Charge doesn't seem to be any better against zoners than default.

 

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

Dang, this is a lot a discussion and everything I had to add has been said. I'll say again though that Leaping Backslash leads to some interesting movement options on platforms, but I agree that it isn't necessarily better and you probably shouldn't be backslashing much anyway. I've been using 1223 and 1313 recently, and don't think either really needs a spot over the other options discussed. (edit: I don't think the other preferential options are better than 1223, but I haven't used them enough to claim they are worse)

And although it doesn't really need more backing up, (1/2/3),1,1,3 are definitely the critical sets, and there should definitely still be a dash vision set of some sort. (I love using dash vision to attack Olimars from halfway across the stage. It's quite useful in some matchups)

 

[Splash Damage]

I'll repost the list here and continue to update this post specifically with all the new developments:
Critical sets
1113
3113
2113
Preferential sets
1123
1213(Placeholder, very subject to change with input. My input is that it should be XX1X, as there is currently little AS exposure in these preferentials)
1223/1233(2 votes 1223, no votes 1233)
2133
3123
3213/3233(2 votes 3213, no votes 3233)
Niche
1122 (5 votes)/1312(3 votes)

 

[Splash Damage]

My personal thoughts on @ Splash Damage 's list:
1313 isn't a good set imo. I can't imagine BSC being worth it on its own. I say put it with dash vision for the niche set or just leave it out completely. I'd say we add another set for the MAS crowd here, personally.

Duly noted. I wanted to see how the crowd reacted to that set and tried to push it, but in the end I suppose it's really not worth it. That being said, I don't think MAS really needs any other exposure/isn't really useful enough to warrant. I am open to suggestions though.

 

[Berserker.]

Merged @ Splash Damage 's double post

 

[VentusAlpha]

After hearing what others had to say about sets 1122 and 1312 if both are bad options against zoners (options being BSC and AAS) then why don't we just have 1112 and just have DV in there? If we have to have another move in there I would rather it be BSC over AAS because of the fact that zoners can easily hits while in in freefall and such and be completely safe.

 

[Piford]

I'm pretty sure none of the up bs are good against zoners. I think 1122 is better than 1112 just because I like advancing air slash over default air slash.

 

[Splash Damage]

Against zoners, you're unlikely to throw out random Air Slashes in neutral anyway, so it comes down to preference of recovery, which is entirely MU dependent. Villager will attempt to get rid of you with horizontal projectiles making AAS useless, while Rosa will likely attempt to runoff B-air to stage spike, making AS worthless. It's gonna be dependant on who does Shulk need to beat the most?

 

[Masonomace]

I'm just gonna be brief; I don't think BSC is worth using it just for the Niche anti-zoning set as I would rather use BS or BSL. But then again, it doesn't hurt having BSC since it is an average recovery option to edge-guard break some projectile walling off-stage. It's somewhat of a dificult decision atm.

As for the voting between 1122 & 1312 I'd rather go with 1122 not just because I think BSC is unnecessary, but also Advancing Air Slash closing the gap between us & the opponent more-so than AS or MAS. You have MUs that zone the ledge hard & ruin your recovery from low or from mid-level, but AAS can compete against some projectile edge-guarding because the 2nd slash can challenge it. You edge-guard break the ledge area while at the same time snapping to the ledge. And btw, the 1st hit of AS or AAS can contest against less stronger projectiles, so oos AS or AAS is okay.

There are setbacks between using AS or AAS for the Niche set, so I too agree that it's preference-based.

 

[kenniky]

My only gripe with this is that our niche set should be 1312. To play it safe, let's stick with default air slash

Alright. I think this is our final set list. Hopefully, there are no objections with this one (This is subjected to being changed until the 17th of March):

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133

Niche sets
1312

We've mentioned before that pairing AAS with DMA is not a good idea, right? Why don't we replace that one for
Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2133
3123
3133

Niche sets
1312
1322

 

[Splash Damage]

We've mentioned before that pairing AAS with DMA is not a good idea, right? Why don't we replace that one for
Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2133
3123
3133

Niche sets
1312
1322

That list is a bit outdated, we've replaced it with the most recent one I posted a few posts up.

 

[kenniky]

That list is a bit outdated, we've replaced it with the most recent one I posted a few posts up.

This one, then, correct?

Critical sets
1113
3113
2113
Preferential sets
1123
1213(Placeholder, very subject to change with input. My input is that it should be XX1X, as there is currently little AS exposure in these preferentials)
1223/1233(2 votes 1223, no votes 1233)
2133
3123
3213/3233(2 votes 3213, no votes 3233)
Niche
1122 (5 votes)/1312(2 votes)

Here's what I think about this:
Critical Sets are definitely on-point.
1123,2133,3123 are also definitely necessary preferential sets
idk how to feel about 1213. imo Back Slash Leap isn't so great as to need its own set that's otherwise exactly like a critical set, plus BSL synergizes best with Hyper arts because HBuster + BSL = shieldbreaks
And I would say for the other preferentials using the votes we have should be fine
However the Niche set is kinda ehh imo. It's meant to be a zone-breaking set, correct? So why would you need to pack the BS/AS that's not zone-breaking? imo 1322 should be niche set

 

[VentusAlpha]

It's all about who Shulk needs to beat the most. I would venture to bet that you won't encounter that many Villagers or Megamans out there and Samus isn't as strong as she used to be. Link/Toon Link won't be there that much either, I would say that Rosaluma is more likely than any of the others. So maybe AAS is a good idea. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Splash Damage]

However the Niche set is kinda ehh imo. It's meant to be a zone-breaking set, correct? So why would you need to pack the BS/AS that's not zone-breaking? imo 1322 should be niche set

@ Plain Yogurt has a pretty good view on this; BSC is good for getting through their zone with its super armor, but not so much so for any pother functions needed to deal with them. You can get in very fast and hit them, but with a very weak and unimpressive hit. That, and it's very easily predictable, and with all that endlag, good luck not eating a huge punish.('Course normal backslash doesn't fare much better but I digress)

 

[Plain Yogurt]

BSC's design confuses me. The giant leap makes it kind of hard to land properly, and then it has the worst reward of the three for actually landing it, and then it ALSO (I think) has the highest end lag of the three. It'd make more sense if either A) it was the STRONGEST one or B) it had the LEAST lag of the three. Maybe if a dude was walling you with back airs? DK? One of the Mario Bros.? I dunno. I don't like it.

 

[Berserker.]

The pitiful hitsun on "Front slash charge" makes it not worth using at all unless you have hyper smash activated but even then, the super armor is actually inconsistent. I've been hit out of BSC at some points

 

[Agent Emerald]

Vouching for 1213. My biggest problem with vanilla back slash is that it always felt just a tad bit too slow, even if it covers a decent amount of ground. Leap's shorter start up feels much smoother to me, and the fact that it puts a damper on shields even without HBuster is a nice bonus.

 

[Splash Damage]

@ Berserker. Do you think you could update the front of the page with the newest version of the list please?

Critical sets
1113
3113
2113

Preferential sets
1123
1213(Placeholder, very subject to change with input. My input is that it should be XX1X, as there is currently little AS exposure in these preferentials)
1223
2133
3123
3213

Niche
1122

Edit: Also Shulk's HMA Speed Perfect Pivot is insane

 

[Goesasu]

@splashdamage hspeed are the best 6 seconds of your short life. decisive speed are the best 20 secs of your long life. Think about it.

 

[Splash Damage]

@splashdamage hspeed are the best 6 seconds of your short life. decisive speed are the best 20 secs of your long life. Think about it.

I have. 20 seconds of uncancellable, only slightly better than normal boost speed with a character who simply has to constantly adapt to his opponent is not what I want. To each their own, but it's not for me.

Edit: sorry, forgot that i already said this. It's been a long week.

 

[erico9001]

@ Berserker. Do you think you could update the front of the page with the newest version of the list please?

Critical sets
1113
3113
2113

Preferential sets
1123
1213(Placeholder, very subject to change with input. My input is that it should be XX1X, as there is currently little AS exposure in these preferentials)
1223
2133
3123
3213

Niche
1122

Edit: Also Shulk's HMA Speed Perfect Pivot is insane

I agree with the amount of normal air slashes now (too many MAS earlier)

 

[Splash Damage]

I agree with the amount of normal air slashes now (too many MAS earlier)

Yeah, AS and AAS definitely take priority. Do we think we all agree on this final list?