Shulk custom moveset discussion 2.0

[FOcast]

Oops. For some reason I thought Hyper Arts activated faster - similar to how Decisive Arts activate slower.

 

[Maple42]

Whoops, sorry; by "game state," I mean the different scenarios that can happen depending on both players' current status. A game that uses that phrase commonly is Chess; when both players (or in some cases, one) has few pieces left, that's considered the "late game," and the beginning of the match to about 40%-ish is considered "early game" for us. They're like the scenarios you presented with the percents.

By acceleration of the game state, I mean that the Monado Arts change the progression of early game to late game faster; why do we go into Buster? Of course, it's to do damage, but in doing so, we make the game faster. Generally, it is best to be in the better position in late game, and as such, by using Buster and subsequently Smash, Jump, or Vanilla for the kill, we have accelerated to the late game with the advantage. My entire argument for the use of Hyper Monado Arts is that it does this better; if we had less than five arts, then it might be a problem, but like you said, we can use the Arts' initial uses differently so they can be used in lieu of ones that are expired.

To answer your question, these are the Arts in order of optimization in theory; if one expires, then the next is probably what I'd switch to. They're very similar to yours, just less Shield; unless both you and your opponent are both at high percentage, it only offers a stalling tool to obtain an Art that you desperately need, but I do not believe that necessary when the other Arts are sufficient; however, Shield becomes a powerful tool with Rage.

You and opponent both at very low percents
Speed, Jump, Vanilla
You and opponent both at mid percents (I'm gonna group this in with hi-mid; I think they're similar enough, just that Buster gets safer and safer until they're in kill range)
Buster, Speed, Jump, Vanilla
You and opponent at high percents
Jump, Shield, Vanilla, Smash if your opponent isn't in a position to protect themselves
You are low percent, opponent high percent (you died)
Smash, Jump, Vanilla

At any point, I still have three optimal arts, which is enough time to cycle back to the original (considering that we might not necessarily have the space control to immediately switch to the Art we need within the three cool down seconds that are left from the original art. I consider Vanilla an art on its own; it has decent kill power, and if I need to do damage, the Speed / Jump / Vanilla trifecta is alright with me.

~

One more thing I would like to address is Hyper Smash. Testing on training mode dummies (which may not be accurate, since I'm not sure if they survival DI or not), here's the kill percentages of heavy / mid / light from a HSmash Art USmash:
Bowser: 69%
Dark Pit: 55%
Jigglypuff: 48%

This means that mid characters have to start watching out for USmashes from 60% and higher; this is another example of accelerating the game state.

 

[Masonomace]

I would talk about HShield or any Hyper Art for the matter, but instead I wanna continue discussing about the moments when players camp your Art's duration in case they don't wanna handle it. The main two HMArts I've noticed a player stall out from some of my past matches are HShield & HSmash. This can definitely be a character-dependent moment as well, since characters like Little Mac & Lucario (I would imagine that many characters are scared too) are prone to be afraid of HSmash. The opponent knowing about the Hyper Arts lasting 6 seconds would easily just camp HShield or HSmash until they expire. In this kind of case, it wouldn't be uncommon to just deactivate that Art & just go in because they give up some stage presence respecting your Art, especially HSmash. At that point it's nice cycling to HJump, HSpeed, HBuster, or just staying in Vanilla until the HMArt you want goes off cooldown does fine in the mean time.

It's also nice to think about what to think about doing next, like if you were able to get a throw setup while in HSmash & threw them off-stage. You'd deactivate HSmash (or don't since HSmash is still good for edge-guarding) & cycle either to HJump or HSpeed for edge-guarding (it's better to cycle to HJump overall, however, HSpeed is a fine replacement in case your HJump is on cooldown. Just make sure to use your Vanilla jump height before HSpeed activates so in case the reduced jump height doesn't gimp you).

 

[Berserker.]

I take back everything I said about hyper buster. It's REALLY good

The raw damage output really makes HBuster worth it (even at low percentages). Sure PS'ing will still mess up HBuster but it's not like all your attacks are going to get PS'd anyway. Using FF aerials is the safest way of dealing damage with HBuster but pivoting f-smash or f-tilt (when they get close) still is a very viable option even if you're likely to get punished for landing it. Even if you take damage after, it won't matter because Shulk can KO at ridiculously early percentages with the help of:

- Hyper Smash
- Power vision

These 2 are the reasons why you'd stop caring about the defense debuff from buster. It won't matter. Your opponent will still need to KO you at ~110%+ (More or less, unless you're using with HSmash) while you can KO them at ~35%+ if we're looking at power vision and ~70%+ if we're looking at hyper smash

Also, don't forget to grab/pivot grab with HBuster. Your throws deal a LOT of damage

 

[Sol0ke]

Yeah, I was wondering "What do you mean Hyper Buster isn't that useful?".

Though I still agree that it's more riskier to use than normal Buster.

 

[Lord Xanthan]

So I tried hyper arts, and I like it, particularly because how much better buster and smash is. But I'm still not sure if I like it more than default arts.

 

[VentusAlpha]

Hyper arts gives you better stats with said art but also takes the draw backs to an equal extreme. While this could be useful to turn the tide of the battle on a dime, default arts is much more useful in my opinion. It may not be as effective when using Buster or Smash, but it gives Speed and Jump a chance to shine and Shield is actually viable. And you can still change arts on the fly so you can go from Shield to Jump and survive what would otherwise be a fatal blow in Shield. Decisive Arts only favor Speed for stage control over a long period of time and won't let you change. Thus why stage control is favored when using Decisive arts. But I think that Hyper and Decisive are better used with certain other customs rather than being used alone.

When using Hyper arts one could actually use Mighty Air Slash. With it's high damage out put it could easily be paired with Buster to get a greater effect and Smash could re-enable it's killing power giving Mighty Air Slash a chance to shine as Shulk's main killing move as it gives about 20% damage even in Hyper Smash mode (tested on Ganondorf at 86% and Rage isn't needed to kill at the edge of Battlefield 3DS or the center of, for that matter). Granted, Air Slash on it's own is a great killing tool, but only at the edge of the stage where as Mighty Air Slash with Hyper arts can kill at the center of the stage unlike Stock Air Slash with Hyper.

Going onto Hyper as a combo tool, it doesn't last that long for doing so in Speed or Jump and it's dangerous to do so in Buster for a longer time than a few U-tilts. And like I said with using Hyper Smash in conjunction with Mighty Air Slash, it's bet used to highly buff on move for a couple of hits and then retreating. Possibly to switch to Smash and carve out a kill.

 

[meleebrawler]

I still think hyper shield is much better than normal for performing better at situations it's useful in.
With normal you're still prone to getting knocked off the stage at high percents, likely forcing you to switch
out involuntarily, and your weight isn't increased enough to prevent combos, which still do reasonable damage.
By comparison in hyper you need to be at ludicrous percents to be sent any reasonable distance, and as
such you're much more likely to break combos. And any combos that still do work on you cause laughable damage.

The fact that normal shield has better mobility is kind of a moot point since the point of shield
isn't to get in on your opponent, it's more to limit your opponent's offence by lowering damage during
juggles and increased punish ability through lower hitstun taken and a stronger shield.

 

[Berserker.]

Alright, I'd say that we're just about done with hyper arts. So, which custom would you guys want to return to or discuss next?

You guys can suggest custom sets by the way. Just make sure you post your reasons

 

[erico9001]

We have not gone over AAS in this new thread, but I'm not sure if there's much more left to say about it.

Wow holy crap. I never bothered around with AAS before, so I never noticed this.. Damn that helpless state has ****ing amazing air speed! It's insane!

I'd like to talk more about Advancing Air Slash. This custom could use some attention & love atm. Anytime a player feels comfy from a safe distance, they're really not, since the 2nd hit of AAS zooms forward & gets in their personal space real quick.

For a example of its capability, go into Training Mode as the 1st player Shulk with the AAS custom on & die in order to spawn in the middle, & set the 2nd player CPU Behavior to Jump. The 2nd hit of AAS basically hits with the edge of that slash.

And wow.

So here's my analysis of AAS

Air Speed after use of the move (same speed with both first and second strike) appears to be exactly the same as Shulk's normal air speeds. It is effected by Monado Arts still, so Monado Shield still has crappy air speed. This is a pretty big realization though, and it makes quite a difference.

It goes without saying the AAS has better horizontal recovery than AS. You can recover from pretty damn far away. To help you visualize this horizontal recovery without having to go in the game, here's an example: The stage is battlefield, and you're off the stage. Shulk's body is just touching off camera. When you are directly horizontal from the edge, so Shulk is level with it, you can use AAS to recover. Even from such a great distance!

As for height, it has a maximum height of normal air slash's first strike only. Once you hit B the second time, there is no longer and more vertical distance. Furthermore, you cancel out some of the vertical height when you press B quickly. The second strike of air slash sort of interrupts the first strike then.

So I did some testing to learn what's the best way to recover with AAS with a custom stage. I do a full hop from the platform then combine up B and drifting to see how far up and to the right I end up on the platforms

I start out with a simple AAS, not forwarded.

Then I do the forwarded version. As expected, the forwarded version has greater recovery distance. I proceed with the rest of the tests to be forwarded from here on. When I did this AAS, I did it shortly after I jumped and drifted in helpless state to the platform.

Another forwarded version. The only difference from this one and the last one is I made sure to use AAS at a lower height (longer delay after the jump). As you can tell, it's the same position as the above one, even though I spent a longer time drifting not in helpless state. This proves that AAS helpless drift is the same speed as the normal drift. You will cover the same distance if you are really high above the edge using it as if you are somewhat higher. I can confirm height does matter though, which I will show soon.

If you put a nice delay between the first and second strikes of air slash, you get noticeably larger recovery distance (same platform but more to the right, if I had another platform on top it might be on it).

Now here's what I get when activating AAS when I just become level with the top platform:

For maximum distance, Air Slash should always be used before your feet are just slightly above the land you intend to land on. Any time before then will produce the same distance/everything.

Finally, here's the distance if you only use 1 strike of advancing air slash:

^These two different pictures are again, one used when high up and one used when lower to show that the air speed is the same. Unlike both hits of AAS, just one hit of AAS should not matter at all when you use it, as long as you're close enough to the ledge to make it to it. Use it when you like. Unlike normal air slash, you don't need to save it til the last minute for best distance.

Speaking of normal Air Slash, here's the maximum results for that:

Also, here's the lowest platform in which AAS can recover by running off the side, drifting, and using the up B. For AAS, this distance is largest when Up B is used ASAP.
https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/zlCfzS_mmqkoK0rsLj

Now... here's the lowest platform from which normal AS can do the same thing.
https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/zlCfzS_mpP0QDpo8ED

In both instances, AAS has better recovery. The only situation I'd imagine normal AS is actually better is when directly below the stage.

So that's my in depth analysis of the recovery.
-
With AAS, the improved air speed of free fall also helps when using AS to attack opponents off the stage and drift back to the platform. For certain combos which end with air slash, Shulk cannot make it back to the stage. However, with AAS, they can actually make it back to the stage depending on how high they are in relationship to the stage when using it.

Furthermore, unlike normal Air Slash, when AAS is used along the lip of the stage, the second strike snaps you instantly to the stage. This makes it safer in respects.

As Masonomace showed, AAS has great distance.

AAS can also hit light characters like Jigs, which normal AS cannot usually hit.

AAS seems worse at hitting already airborne opponents when they are at the top of the first strike's arc, as the second strike goes too low to hit them then.

So... I'm really liking AAS now.

The only thing more I have to say is it's hard to get used to the different type of recovery AAS has. I'm so used to going low with normal air slash.

Otherwise, I think the next best thing to discuss are the custom visions. To me, dash vision seems better against projectile users. I wonder how its safety on hit changes, though. Meanwhile, I have no idea about if power vision is better than normal vision. I know the activation frames were explored for these different customs, but were the rates of recharge also explored? How spaced apart in time must my power visions be? My dash visions? Oh, hey, I just had a thought that is new to me about dash vision. Recovery?

I think there is a lot of room for exploration with either of the custom visions. I don't think we should do both of them at once, though. Following these two customs, I think it is worthwhile to cover the custom back slash moves. Finally, that leaves us with the air slash moves, which I feel I personally already understand very well.

After all these moves have been discussed is when I think we need to start combining them. This is when we will be able to very clearly discuss each potential set. For instance, since decisive monado arts help to get in on projectile users, and dash vision should also help, are the two arts good in combination together to make Shulk really good on getting in on projectile users? Or is it that one of the customs is good enough so that the other is not really needed? Well, it all matters on how well dash vision really is at getting in, which I don't have real knowledge of yet. I can't really suggest the two be put together for that reason. The same thing can be applied to back slash charge. I can imagine because of the range and super armour of back slash charge that it would be good for getting in on projectile users. However, since we have not discussed it here yet, I don't know the extent of it. I don't even know if it truly does help in that matter. For this reason, I'm not going to suggest any sets at this point.

 

[Locke 06]

Question: I've been thinking about this with my other characters' customs, but I never really thought about it with Shulk.

What character matchups would affect which customs you choose?

Power vision is ridiculous... but is dash or default vision worth it in certain matchups?
Default arts seem to be best for playing in neutral (since you can't get timed out easily)... maybe hyper arts is more for matchups where you can dictate the pace of the match. (When you zone out your opponent and decide when you want to go in, for example).

Just a thought.

 

[Masonomace]

But I think that Hyper and Decisive are better used with certain other customs rather than being used alone.

I dig this. It's a bit difficult describing a Custom Special on its own if another Custom Special isn't involved with it. My example of this is Hyper Buster + Advancing Air Slash since drifting backwards improves the safety of the move on-hit than it would using AS or MAS (the damage you ask? 23%!). Or another example being Hyper Speed + Mighty Air Slash since the air speed increase can make Mighty Air Slash drifting away at early percentages safer (the damage in Training Mode goes from the vanilla 19% to HSpeed 12%, but hey, damage is damage).

I'm just not too sure about Hyper Buster with Mighty Air Slash (I'm definitely kosher with Hyper Smash + Mighty Air Slash). The damage is fantastic (31% in Training Mode) with Hyper Buster + Mighty Air Slash, but it can be unsafe because you go so high bringing the opponent up high with you, & the huge decrease of knockback gives the opponent an opportunity to retaliate with an aerial or a combo of aerials (this point doesn't hold much merit if the character doesn't trade damage with us properly). At that moment, it's more of "I'm gonna deal tons of damage to you & not care what you'll do next". Mainly my issues with HBuster + MAS are:

1. MAS can be crouched against & be rendered useless (this isn't common though. . .I suppose you won't come across someone who would actually crouch defensively. Personally, I hope to see crouching used against the Buster Arts more)
2. MAS barely has any drifting ability to make it safer so the only thing to do is FF ASAP

Even if you take damage after, it won't matter because Shulk can KO at ridiculously early percentages with the help of:

- Hyper Smash
- Power vision

These 2 are the reasons why you'd stop caring about the defense debuff from buster. It won't matter. Your opponent will still need to KO you at ~110%+ (More or less, unless you're using with HSmash) while you can KO them at ~35%+ if we're looking at power vision and ~70%+ if we're looking at hyper smash

This is slightly unimportant because it's trivial, but throwing it out there. Combining the strength of Hyper Smash + Power Vision forwarded is a borderline Melee Jigglypuff REST Down-B. It gets better depending on the move countered, but that's self-explanatory.

I still think hyper shield is much better than normal for performing better at situations it's useful in.
With normal you're still prone to getting knocked off the stage at high percents, likely forcing you to switch
out involuntarily, and your weight isn't increased enough to prevent combos, which still do reasonable damage.
By comparison in hyper you need to be at ludicrous percents to be sent any reasonable distance, and as
such you're much more likely to break combos. And any combos that still do work on you cause laughable damage.

The fact that normal shield has better mobility is kind of a moot point since the point of shield
isn't to get in on your opponent, it's more to limit your opponent's offence by lowering damage during
juggles and increased punish ability through lower hitstun taken and a stronger shield.

I dig this. I used to believe that Hyper Shield wasn't useful in the beginning but I was wrong. It's still a shame that HMArts only last for 6 seconds, but when I think about it, if HMArts lasted for at least 8 - 10 seconds then it would be more popular than the regular MArts imho. That said, 6 seconds of HShield to c-c-c-combo break, live in the 200% area like it's nothing, have heavily increased defense (basically 50% damage reduction), & having the strongest bubble shield in the game gives me the greatest confidence knowing how safe I feel using OoS options no matter how low my bubble shield gets (oh & HShield regenerates our bubble shield much faster than Shield. Think about the times a character used a shield-breaking move just once & you shielded it). I also agree that the difference of mobility between Shield & HShield leaves little to discuss because both are bad at mobility anyhow. No one uses either to recover with off-stage despite Shield having enough air speed to barely get by. Both still do great rolling around to cover distance & can both use dash attack OoS when a strong move connects on shield.

Alright, I'd say that we're just about done with hyper arts. So, which custom would you guys want to return to or discuss next?

You guys can suggest custom sets by the way. Just make sure you post your reasons

Thanks to @ erico9001 's post just now, I feel that the Up-B & Down-B customs could use more discussion (along with the Side-B customs). Mostly my top two atm:

1. Dash Vision
2. Advancing Air Slash

Why Dash Vision?
Four reasons atm:

1. Dash Vision's counterattack has greater range than Vision & Power Vision. Dash Vision's two alternate counter outcomes both go the same distance
2. Recovery purposes kudos to @ erico9001 . The distance you travel going forward airborne is not too shabby & can be an edge-guard break option especially for projectiles used against you.
3. The knockback angle. The launching angle itself is a pretty terrible angle to be launched because it sets up a great edge-guarding session for Shulk. I can see Dash Vision gimping players more than actually trying to KO with it.
4. Dash Vision's "slowdown" distortion effect is bigger than Vision & Power Vision, making it greater for punishing from afar.

Also, Dash Vision's counter window slowed down in 1/4 speed in Training Mode is interesting & awkward. A first-time Dash Vision counter window compared to a first-time regular Vision side-by-side, Dash Vision is shorter, which probably turns people away from using it I would imagine. Dash Vision imo could use more exploration.

EDIT: Dash Vision is also surprisingly good for following up. You can Dash Vision someone at early percentage & they'll flinch early enough that they'll enter the tumble state, forcing them to tech if they don't want to be punished from the tech chase scenario that you just created. Another I've noticed is that Dash Vision is safer for three reasons:

1. Your counterattack comes out faster hitting them earlier than Vision or Power Vision would (this also means that your Forwarded Dash Vision recovers faster than Vision & Power Vision)
2. When Dash Vision hits someone with the counterattack, the victim won't be launched immediately fast. Basically the starting of the launch is slow but then picks back up to speed. That little moment they don't get launched immediately also helps the safety of Dash Vision.
3. On top of that delayed launch I mentioned, Dash Vision could also be dealing more hit-stun.

 

[VentusAlpha]

Before we completely leave MAS and AAS in the dust, AAS can actually lead into some offstage chasing by way of using the second slash to land on the platform and immediately switching to Jump Manado. Plus, you can still use AAS as a lower recovery move but you can only use the first slash. It might be slightly stronger but if I wanted strength I would have gone with MAS. Sure you could go high off stage and survive whether going for the kill or for going for a recovery but when you execute that second slash you're vulnerable after using it for recovery. Making it easy for the opponent to just come and knock you back or go for a meteor smash or a spike.

But, let's pair this with Decisive arts and use speed exclusively. What's the damage? A rather effective combo/string tool comes into play. Making it hard for enemies to DI out of anything you dish out and keeping you moving forward. Keeps your momentum and becomes a great asset for a build. So I would just casually suggest 2121 and 3131 in reference to my previous post on Hyper arts and MAS.

Edit: Didn't see the new posts until after I posted.

Edit 2: after reading @ Masonomace 's post I agree that Dash Vision is a great tool for follow ups and tech chases. And @ erico9001 is right about Dash Vision being a good way to deal with projectile characters.

 

[kesterstudios]

dash vision looks cool, but I still prefer power vision because that counter is just too powerful to ignore.
I also have a question. do the hits of advancing air slash link better than the default? if that's true than I think im gonna try it out. I can sacrifice a little vertical recovery, for a slightly better attack that deals more damage. I know the knockback of advancing air slash is the same as the default so that's also good.

 

[Masonomace]

I also have a question. do the hits of advancing air slash link better than the default? if that's true than I think im gonna try it out. I can sacrifice a little vertical recovery, for a slightly better attack that deals more damage. I know the knockback of advancing air slash is the same as the default so that's also good.

Answer: yes you can mash B as fast as you want & both hits will connect consistently. But I'm not sure if AS & AAS have the same knockback, I just know that AAS launches them more horizontally forward, which is better for AAS to be used the closer you are to the ledge area.

 

[Piford]

I like advancing air slash just because Shulk doesn't really need the slight extra jump from normal air slash since he has so much recovery from jump, and the odd angle of the slash leads to some neat approaches and recoveries at the right distance. It's also a bit stronger, but that's mostly negligible. I really think it deserves at least one set (either 1323 or 1123). Also this thread should probably be discussing custom sets since there's only about 2 weeks before all 10 sets need to be ready. What have you guys been thinking the 10 sets should look like?

 

[kesterstudios]

Answer: yes you can mash B as fast as you want & both hits will connect consistently. But I'm not sure if AS & AAS have the same knockback, I just know that AAS launches them more horizontally forward, which is better for AAS to be used the closer you are to the ledge area.

I tested both slashes on the center of final destination on Mario. AS KO'ed at 151% and AAS KO'ed at 150%. the knockback is pretty much the same.

also thanks for answering. im gonna try out AAS and see if I like it better than the default. the better linking hits and better damage with the same range is something I like.

 

[VentusAlpha]

If were going to be discussing sets, then 2122 would be for a speedy build to tech chase with Dash Vision and to combo into things with AAS using Decisive Speed to keep thing going. 3331 because BSC makes B-Throw to Back Slash easier (either for damage or for a kill) and I've already made the argument of MAS + Hyper arts, no Power Vision because your're not going to be using vision much when you're looking for set ups for MAS and BSC.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'd like at least 1 set with Leaping Back Slash, personally. I think the quicker startup and falling speed and ability to catch somebody landing on a platform are worth a look, thought granted Shulk is not necessarily wanting for options against opponents on platforms. Still, I think it's a solid mixup tool, not much less situational than any other back slash, really.

After an admittedly short amount of time fooling around with it I'm not seeing too much appeal out of Dash Vision beyond extra recovery, which Jump Monado already covers fairly nicely, really. I suppose If you got thrown off during decisive shield or something? I dunno. And finding follow-ups out of it is cool and all, but if I were using power vision I wouldn't really need follow ups because that guy is dead if he hit me with anything half-decent anyway. Also I learned that even if I counter a projectile, unless they're in the vision field they aren't slowed, so if they used something fairly non-committal (Mario's fireball in this case), they may have time to escape the counter, even with the dash speed. However, once again this is a quick five-minute session with the move, so take my first impression with a grain of salt. Masonomace has mentioned that the slowdown field IS in fact bigger? Perhaps it's better in practice depending on matchup.

 

[erico9001]

I like advancing air slash just because Shulk doesn't really need the slight extra jump from normal air slash since he has so much recovery from jump, and the odd angle of the slash leads to some neat approaches and recoveries at the right distance. It's also a bit stronger, but that's mostly negligible. I really think it deserves at least one set (either 1323 or 1123). Also this thread should probably be discussing custom sets since there's only about 2 weeks before all 10 sets need to be ready. What have you guys been thinking the 10 sets should look like?

Oh really, only two weeks? Well, discussion should be going by faster now that we are through the monado art customs. What exactly is in two weeks though that makes that the deadline? Shulk is a very complex character, so his customs naturally are going to take longer than the other characters.

 

[Piford]

Oh really, only two weeks? Well, discussion should be going by faster now that we are through the monado art customs. What exactly is in two weeks though that makes that the deadline? Shulk is a very complex character, so his customs naturally are going to take longer than the other characters.

EVO's deadline is Marth 27, so Amazing Ampharos want's the project done by March 17 so he has 10 days to solve any unforeseen issues. That gives us about 12 days to decided which 10 sets are best.

 

[erico9001]

dash vision looks cool, but I still prefer power vision because that counter is just too powerful to ignore.
I also have a question. do the hits of advancing air slash link better than the default? if that's true than I think im gonna try it out. I can sacrifice a little vertical recovery, for a slightly better attack that deals more damage. I know the knockback of advancing air slash is the same as the default so that's also good.

The two hits of AAS do connect better, both against very light characters (like Jiggs) and very heavy characters. However, you do need to get used to not being able to hit opponents who are as high up in the air above you.

edit: It looks like AAS makes the Buster D-throw -> Air Slash combo much safer.

Yeah, I still think this custom is great. I'm going to test out some technicals with it now (I guess we've started discussing AAS?)

Okay so here's some testing on what character hanging on the edge AAS works on.

Bowser jr needs to be up close
G&W
Duck Hunt
Kirby
Meta Knight need to be up close
Pikachu
Jiggs
Ness need to be up close
Olimar

So far, it seems like AAS is a worse option for attacking opponents who are hanging on the edge. Only works on small characters. This is just something to keep in mind... don't think it should be a deciding factor between customs or anything. Now that I've done this, I might as well go test what characters on the ledge normal air slash works on.

 

[VentusAlpha]

(I guess we've started discussing AAS?)

I would say so, and I feel like I'm missing something when regarding this move. We've covered recovery potential, combo potential and it's kill potential and how it can be used with Decisive arts and Hyper arts but I feel like there's something I'm not getting. Maybe I'll update this post if there's anything else I find. Anyone else get anything?

 

[erico9001]

I would say so, and I feel like I'm missing something when regarding this move. We've covered recovery potential, combo potential and it's kill potential and how it can be used with Decisive arts and Hyper arts but I feel like there's something I'm not getting. Maybe I'll update this post if there's anything else I find. Anyone else get anything?

The horizontal distance it goes does eliminate the use of a reversed air slash for ledge trumping and guarding the edge while off the stage with the opponent. That's something I just kind of wanted to bring up... I have no idea if that's what you're thinking about though.

Another thing to know is some stages with iplatforms higher than battlefield's lower platforms will block you from doing both hits of the move.
- One such platform is the stage on Smashville.
- Also, the Town and City side platforms in the first stage, and both the moving platforms in the other stage.
- While on lylat cruise, if you are on the lower parts of the wings, then this will happen when you hit the side platforms.
- This will happen when on the moving part of Skyloft if you are going against a slanted platform with the lower part of the slant being near you and the high part of the slant being away from you. On Skyloft, it is fine if it is the flat versions of the platforms, as these are the same height as Battlefield's platforms.
- Does not work on Delfino plaza
- Fine on Battlefield
- Does not work on the halberd platform
- Does not work on the short tree on Duck Hunt. It does work if you are up on the higher tree.
- Does not work on all Castle Siege platforms.
- Does not work on PS2

Tbh, unless you're on battlefield, Skyloft, or parts of Lylat Cruise, then you're free to assume AAS will not work onto a platform when you are on the ground. If you intend to do AAS in one of these situations, be sure to jump beforehand.

Oh, I know. We haven't really looked into how it works in coordination with Monado Jump.

Also, @ Masonomace , don't you have a custom stage that can be used to measure range of moves? I'm wondering if AAS has more range than normal AS on its first strike. I think this must just be my mind playing tricks on me, though.

 

[VentusAlpha]

I've figured it out, at least what my mind was trying to tell me. Speed Manado actually brings the distance you can travel to a ledge offstage much longer with AAS. To give an idea, I was at the edge of the screen on Battlefield 3DS and was able to make it back at a lower height, not much lower but lower none the less.

Edit:

Also 2322 needs to be a part of the list. This is great for stage control, tech chases, combos, it's just great overall.

 

[Maple42]

Before we start analyzing the Up B customs, I'd like to bring up Decisive Monado Arts so I can immediately shoot it down for being the worst of the three options. While being in Speed for such a long time is sooooo nice, not being able to switch Arts completely invalidates what I perceive to be the purpose of the Monado Arts - accelerating the game state.
If you go into Buster, you're stuck if they're in kill range until it wears off, which decelerates the game state. The same with Smash; you're stuck if you kill them, making it worthless unless used on the last stock. However, you were already in the late game, so it's still not really doing much....
You don't want to be in Shield for that long. We become Little Mac without the speed; that was fine, if you could switch out of it....
There is one more problem. You can't MALLC in Decisive....
Alas, with such problems in exchange for a longer Speed Art, I do not think it is worth it.

Now, onto the Up B customs. To what purpose does each move serve? As far as I can tell, Mighty Air Slash is for higher damage, which accelerates the game state, so that's a plus. It does 31% in Hyper Buster if both connect, 19% in Vanilla, and 26% in regular Buster; that is a healthy chunk of their stock we're taking away. Furthermore, it seems that it doesn't reduce recovery rate much; theoretically with Jump, recovery shouldn't be an issue.

Advancing Air Slash is an intriguing move.... I'm not entirely sure what its purpose is; not to say it doesn't have one. It seems that its aim is to kill, either through its pseudo-knockback with the second slash, or stage spiking. With Hyper Smash, it kills at around 90% facing the edge, and around 110% with regular Smash, which brings me to the conclusion that we're aiming for stage spiking... How, I'm not too sure. While I'm fairly convinced on Mighty Air Slash as a great OoS option that can do great damage, I can't help but feel I'm missing something with Advancing Air Slash.

 

[Masonomace]

Welp. . .with 2 weeks remaining as our time I guess it's time to get the ball rolling to the max. Now it's Shulk time!

I would say so, and I feel like I'm missing something when regarding this move. We've covered recovery potential, combo potential and it's kill potential and how it can be used with Decisive arts and Hyper arts but I feel like there's something I'm not getting. Maybe I'll update this post if there's anything else I find. Anyone else get anything?

I see that you posted about AAS having better horizontal drifting distance in between the 2 slashes, which is great because Speed does this the best. Delaying the 2nd slash longer increases sideways length which is always a plus. Jump mode however makes it better & worse at the same time; you do increase the 1st slash's height, but the falling speed + air speed are canceling each other out so therefore delaying the slash isn't as effective than Speed. But don't get me wrong, it's always better to delay the 2nd slash if you need the horizontal squeeze of recovery regardless of which Art is active.

I think @ erico9001 or someone else brought this up about AAS, but just in case it wasn't, did anyone mention about how AAS can edge-guard break someone by the ledge or going off-stage for you? First I wanna take this quote from @AnotherDerp from the metagame thread (apologies for tagging & quoting your post in advance mate):

Whenever I try to recover, I usually go below the stage and try to snap to it with AS, but there are those few frames just before grabbing it that leave me open, and end up getting stage spiked by certain characters (such as Mario's b-air).

How would you guys try to give yourselves a bit of defense against stage spikes, especially if you can't tech that well.

What I usually try to do is a backwards AS in order to try to keep my opponent away or at least cancel their attack, but that isn't always reliable. Any ideas/input?

The trouble that AS & MAS have is they recover mostly from low if not very low, which does put a damper on Shulk if a character edge-guards you heavily & can read your recovery pattern (Villager bowling ball / walk-off B-air / aggressive Up-B from G&W or Marth etc.). Yet AAS doesn't need to recover from low. Actually, AAS is very safe when recovering from mid to mid-low. The advancing 2nd slash can not only auto-snap the ledge at anytime during the advance facing forward (or behind if you're very close to the ledge like you would be for a reversed facing AS), but you can use AAS prematurely & use the 2nd slash to hit someone near the ledge or someone going towards you & still snap the ledge. Not even a Shulk Vision countering a well-used AAS can be punished & that's a slowdown effect.

Conclusion for now: If you don't like being edge-guarded, AAS is for you.

As for Dash Vision. . . I've come to a better understanding that Dash Vision is more well-rounded with countering. What I mean is that you can use this counter grounded & airborne and be satisfied with either result. Since Dash Vision still zooms forward no matter the positioning, you can feel safe knowing your counter will likely hit an airborne opponent with the bonus that it's an optional recovery maneuver. On the ground, both alternate counters finish at the same distance & the regular Dash Vision counterattack has greater range than the Forwarded one, but the Forwarded one has more range than a Forwarded Vision or Forwarded Power Vision.

And just now I've stumbled across this neat thing with Dash Vision. If you're barely airborne & input Dash Vision, you'll be in the counter animation but you'll notice that Shulk gets his footing on the ground by the time he's ready to counterattack. If Shulk does this correctly, he'll slide a wee bit of distance as he steps forward at the very end of the move right before you can put up your bubble shield.

Spoiler: Insane Dash Vision slide I want someone to try

UPDATE: Something CRAZY I'm doing with Dash Vision is blowing my mind. The problem though is that I haven't been able to recreate this scenario except for one way:

1. Go to Training Mode
2. Set CPU to whoever (I did Mario)
3. Start at the 1st player spawn on Final Destination & have your CPU set to control to be nearby
4. Spawn a Bob-omb & make the CPU scoot it closer to you so that you don't have to move
5. Grab the Bob-omb & make the CPU die so that he spawns in the middle of FD
6. Smash or Light throw the Bob-omb upward
7. Time your SH > Dash Vision in the way I explained above
8. Witness the result of sliding FD length. Enjoy!

Conclusion: Unless it's a strong hit in combination hitting with the sourspot of Dash Vision used in this manner, I don't think it'll work but someone should totally make a Youtube video of this. My webcam quality is borderline decent but I can upload it if need be.

EDIT: @ Maple42 Basically I agree with you about Decisive Arts. At this point I believe DMArts will be better suited for 2v2 Doubles. It's a shame because the DMArts aren't too shabby if it wasn't for the fact that you can't deactivate them.

 

[Piford]

Before we start analyzing the Up B customs, I'd like to bring up Decisive Monado Arts so I can immediately shoot it down for being the worst of the three options. While being in Speed for such a long time is sooooo nice, not being able to switch Arts completely invalidates what I perceive to be the purpose of the Monado Arts - accelerating the game state.
If you go into Buster, you're stuck if they're in kill range until it wears off, which decelerates the game state. The same with Smash; you're stuck if you kill them, making it worthless unless used on the last stock. However, you were already in the late game, so it's still not really doing much....
You don't want to be in Shield for that long. We become Little Mac without the speed; that was fine, if you could switch out of it....
There is one more problem. You can't MALLC in Decisive....
Alas, with such problems in exchange for a longer Speed Art, I do not think it is worth it.

Now, onto the Up B customs. To what purpose does each move serve? As far as I can tell, Mighty Air Slash is for higher damage, which accelerates the game state, so that's a plus. It does 31% in Hyper Buster if both connect, 19% in Vanilla, and 26% in regular Buster; that is a healthy chunk of their stock we're taking away. Furthermore, it seems that it doesn't reduce recovery rate much; theoretically with Jump, recovery shouldn't be an issue.

Advancing Air Slash is an intriguing move.... I'm not entirely sure what its purpose is; not to say it doesn't have one. It seems that its aim is to kill, either through its pseudo-knockback with the second slash, or stage spiking. With Hyper Smash, it kills at around 90% facing the edge, and around 110% with regular Smash, which brings me to the conclusion that we're aiming for stage spiking... How, I'm not too sure. While I'm fairly convinced on Mighty Air Slash as a great OoS option that can do great damage, I can't help but feel I'm missing something with Advancing Air Slash.

Mighty air slash actually goes a bit higher than standard air slash if I recall correctly. It just doesn't extend its hitboxes as far.

Also I definitely think decisive Monado arts deserves at least 2113 since a lot of people seem to like it and if it is good in doubles like @Masonomace said we should definitely include it in the list.

 

[Maple42]

If we assume that Dash Vision is more accurate, and that Power Vision is for early kills essentially, the question we need to ask is, "why are we using Vision?"
Well, the obvious answer to that is that we're reading a move, and want to punish; however, if you already have a read, then is it possible that there is a better punish?
While Dash Vision may be able to hit more consistently, there are more likely better options, like using the flyswatter FAir, and it covers more options as well, such as a grab or a bait. It is nigh impossible to punish as hard as Power Vision can, since it can kill as early as 40%, and I apologize for sounding like a broken record, but if you get a kill that early, the game state is clearly accelerated. Compounded with the Arts, and in particular, the Hyper Arts, lead to an unwinnable game state for your opponent, due to being so far ahead.

 

[Masonomace]

Mighty air slash actually goes a bit higher than standard air slash if I recall correctly. It just doesn't extend its hitboxes as far.

Also I definitely think decisive Monado arts deserves at least 2113 since a lot of people seem to like it and if it is good in doubles like @Masonomace said we should definitely include it in the list.

I'm just replying to say that you're correct to the max. Air Slash & Mighty Air Slash can hit someone at the same height even when both are augmented by the same Jump Art, but the difference of height is huge especially when you account Hyper Jump + Mighty Air Slash. You'll never be dunked by a Meteor Smash ever again.

If we assume that Dash Vision is more accurate, and that Power Vision is for early kills essentially, the question we need to ask is, "why are we using Vision?"
Well, the obvious answer to that is that we're reading a move, and want to punish; however, if you already have a read, then is it possible that there is a better punish?
While Dash Vision may be able to hit more consistently, there are more likely better options, like using the flyswatter FAir, and it covers more options as well, such as a grab or a bait. It is nigh impossible to punish as hard as Power Vision can, since it can kill as early as 40%, and I apologize for sounding like a broken record, but if you get a kill that early, the game state is clearly accelerated. Compounded with the Arts, and in particular, the Hyper Arts, lead to an unwinnable game state for your opponent, due to being so far ahead.

You'd use Vision because a said tournament wouldn't allow customs. But in all seriousness, Dash Vision is much better in that you can punish someone from mid to long range with a quick & unblockable move. Those character MUs that zone us forcing to approach them? Now we can use that opportunity to Dash Vision in order to break the gap between us & the opponent & knock them off-stage for complete stage control & star edge-guarding them, & it's even better if we get them just close enough to be slowed down ensuring the counterattack is guaranteed. Vision & Power Vision don't have a larger slowing distortion effect. Dash Vision's launching knockback angle is perfect for this strategy as well, & since Dash Vision has greater frame advantage than Vision or Power Vision do, we can capitalize off a moment that neither Vision nor a Power Vision would.

I still respect Vision & Power Vision for what they can do, but Dash Vision is one of Shulk's fastest options & is definitely his longest reaching move in his entire move-set.

 

[Piford]

What's the frame data on all of the vision?

 

[Masonomace]

What's the frame data on all of the vision?

The frame data below this sentence is all that I could find. I don't think we have counter frame windows & invincibility & all that yet.

Spoiler: The Visions frame data

1. Vision (fast hit)
2. Frame 21-21: 13% 70b/94g (KO@ 112%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
3. Frame 21-21: 10% 70b/94g (KO@ 147%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
4. Max Damage: 13%
5. 
   
6. Dash Vision (fast hit)
7. Frame 13-13: 11% 70b/94g (KO@ 108%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
8. Frame 13-13: 8% 70b/94g (KO@ 147%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
9. Max Damage: 11%
10. 
    
11. Power Vision (fast hit)
12. Frame 41-44: 20% 70b/100g (KO@ 60%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
13. Frame 41-44: 17% 70b/100g (KO@ 76%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
14. Max Damage: 20%
15. 
    
16. Vision (normal hit)
17. Frame 8- 9: 10% 70b/84g (KO@ 166%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
18. Frame 8- 9: 7% 70b/84g (KO@ 228%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
19. Max Damage: 10%
20. 
    
21. Dash Vision (normal hit
22. Frame 8-11: 8% 70b/84g (KO@ 166%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
23. Frame 8-11: 5% 70b/84g (KO@ 244%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
24. Max Damage: 8%
25. 
    
26. Power Vision (normal hit)
27. Frame 12-17: 17% 70b/100g (KO@ 76%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
28. Frame 12-17: 14% 70b/100g (KO@ 96%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
29. Max Damage: 17%

EDIT: About the counter frame window thing, I did a side-by-side comparison between Vision, Dash Vision, & Power Vision.

The 1st Dash Vision has the shortest counter window, & the 1st Power Vision has the longest counter window. And the 1st Vision is in between them. Power Vision has some yellow moments going on in his counter though. What are the yellow flashes?? Anyone??

 

[Nammy12]

I took this from the prima guide. (I'm gonna assume it wasn't affected in patches)
The prima guide also said that dash vision counter windows recharge slightly faster than the regular one.

Spoiler: Insane Dash Vision slide I want someone to try

UPDATE: Something CRAZY I'm doing with Dash Vision is blowing my mind. The problem though is that I haven't been able to recreate this scenario except for one way:

1. Go to Training Mode
2. Set CPU to whoever (I did Mario)
3. Start at the 1st player spawn on Final Destination & have your CPU set to control to be nearby
4. Spawn a Bob-omb & make the CPU scoot it closer to you so that you don't have to move
5. Grab the Bob-omb & make the CPU die so that he spawns in the middle of FD
6. Smash or Light throw the Bob-omb upward
7. Time your SH > Dash Vision in the way I explained above
8. Witness the result of sliding FD length. Enjoy!

Conclusion: Unless it's a strong hit in combination hitting with the sourspot of Dash Vision used in this manner, I don't think it'll work but someone should totally make a Youtube video of this. My webcam quality is borderline decent but I can upload it if need be.

I'm trying to do this but what am I supposed to be looking for?

 

[Masonomace]

I'm trying to do this but what am I supposed to be looking for?

You're looking for Shulk connecting the Dash Vision's sourspot, followed by a HUGE slide of distance. That's when you know it's correct. Apologies in advance because this process is tedious.

 

[Piford]

Is the damage only for default, becuase I think the maximum damage for hyper buster is 88%.

 

[VentusAlpha]

I see that you posted about AAS having better horizontal drifting distance in between the 2 slashes, which is great because Speed does this the best. Delaying the 2nd slash longer increases sideways length which is always a plus. Jump mode however makes it better & worse at the same time; you do increase the 1st slash's height, but the falling speed + air speed are canceling each other out so therefore delaying the slash isn't as effective than Speed. But don't get me wrong, it's always better to delay the 2nd slash if you need the horizontal squeeze of recovery regardless of which Art is active.

I should probably say that I wasn't really clear when I explained my finding. Speed actually makes your Freefalling state travel faster horizontally. Sorry I should have read over what I was saying.

But dat Dash Vision though. Seriously, it's something that should be part of a set. If DMArts are more for doubles play then perhaps just having SMArts in the DV set would be a good idea. Maybe 1322 for a good tech chasing, combo one. It doesn't last as long as DMArts but it's still good.

And hot damn that's awesome!!!!!! If my only source wasn't a smart phone with the ability to capture in glorious 60fps then I would record this for you. Sadly, I don't have someone willing to do it for me.

 

[Nammy12]

You're looking for Shulk connecting the Dash Vision's sourspot, followed by a HUGE slide of distance. That's when you know it's correct. Apologies in advance because this process is tedious.

Wow. You weren't kidding.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

So the power of the move blocked effects the dash? Or is because of that little jump at the start? It seems I was right in my assumption that I may have written the move off too early...

 

[erico9001]

Before we start analyzing the Up B customs, I'd like to bring up Decisive Monado Arts so I can immediately shoot it down for being the worst of the three options. While being in Speed for such a long time is sooooo nice, not being able to switch Arts completely invalidates what I perceive to be the purpose of the Monado Arts - accelerating the game state.

I remember you explained that phrase to me, but yeah, I still don't get what you are meaning by accelerating the game state. If it's something along the lines of giving Shulk mostly improved attributes which serve to give him a more advantageous position against his opponents (which is the purpose of monado arts), then I disagree. If that's not what you mean, I don't see any point in what you're saying.

If you go into Buster, you're stuck if they're in kill range until it wears off, which decelerates the game state.

You're assuming that you will actually get the opponent to kill percents and not be able to switch out. However, let's say you put on decisive Buster at 0%, you need to deal at least 80% damage on the opponent within 20 seconds to be put in this situation of not being able to kill. In actuality, this is unlikely to happen. You are still fine activating Buster, even at mid percents. Even if the opponent does start to get up to kill percents, getting them even higher ~120% will not be disadvantageous by any measure. After mid percents, you still have the power to not activate Buster if you suspect you would get the opponent to very nice kill percents without being able to switch out.

The same with Smash; you're stuck if you kill them, making it worthless unless used on the last stock. However, you were already in the late game, so it's still not really doing much....

Yeah, this is actually somewhat true for decisive Smash. This is not true under a few conditions:
1) The opponent is on the last stock
2) You spend a decent amount of time in Monado Smash before you get the kill (but were still trying to), thus reducing the time you must wait before it deactivates. In this situation, you would likely be thankful for the extra time you had with the art
3) If you can stall out the opponent (usually easier on platform stages).

You don't want to be in Shield for that long. We become Little Mac without the speed; that was fine, if you could switch out of it....

Shield admittedly has a different role in decisive monado arts. It is better used at lower percents if at all. It could still be good in Neutral against Jigglypuff. It's important to note that decisive arts decreases the damage and knockback shield shulk takes. It's even harder to get Shulk off of the stage, especially if Shulk is careful about staying away from the edge.

There is one more problem. You can't MALLC in Decisive....

For this, keep in mind that the project for the sets is to find the customs combination which is most common, thus reducing the amount of time needed in a tournament for people to import their individual sets at tournaments. MALLC is a very uncommon technique, so this argument does not apply. It is a worthwhile point for the viability of the arts in general, but not for establishing these sets. Also, if we are to look into viability, the MALLC is not necessary for success in a competitive environment.

Alas, with such problems in exchange for a longer Speed Art, I do not think it is worth it.

No, monado speed is not the only good attribute of the decisive arts. You don't even bring up Monado Jump, which is often used to get in on projectile users, and so is also greatly boosted by the decisive arts. Don't forget about Buster, as I certainly love my Buster.

Another important point is that the various arts have their positive attributes boosted with no effect on the negative consequences. Buster is even better in decisive arts, as long as you're smart enough not to use it too late in the game. Speed is faster, so it has better pivot grabs, better follow ups, better punishes, and better recovery. Jump can go higher and moves faster. The main thing there is the faster movement which leads to better Fair strings. Monado Shield protects you from damage and knockback even more, and so continues to keep you out of combos until later percents. Smash kills even earlier.

-----------------------------

On the topic of Decisive Monado Shield and not being able to switch out of it, Advancing Air Slash should really help Shulk out here. With advancing air slash, Shulk will have to drift less distance before he is at the point of maximum recovery distance (which I remind, is a little bit above the edge in which you are hoping to latch onto). Drift speed is the main nerf shield shulk gets for recovery, so with less of that being required, the recovery will not be as bad as with the other arts.

I've taken this to the weapon development lab and started an experiment. For consistency in this experiment I am setting the stage to omega skyloft and using the designs on the floor for cosistency of my spacing in front of Shulk. I am in training mode, so there is no rage or staling. My opponent is a Shulk who is in the training mode spawn point. I am Shulk. I will be using F-tilt, which cannot be charged nor tilted. Before I do the F-tilt, I will have the Shulk I am hitting taunt and will hold his joystick completely left for consistent DI and vectoring for consistent recovery. I am NOT JUMPING for additional consistency. Finally, I am full spacing out the two hits of air slash for the maximum recovery of the up b in both cases.

Here is the result:

(this is the aftermath)
After a long time testing, I've found the higher percent damage at which the opponent Shulk can possibly recover at is 130%. I have tested and retested this, and at 131% Shulk is unable to recover, but at 130% he is able to.

Now let's look at with advancing air slash.

154%. Consistently tested. My hypothesis is confirmed.

It's very worth noting that Shulk is going off the screen at 154%, nearly reaching the blast zone, and is able to recover even without using his jump.

(taken when Shulk no longer has any horizontal movement)

Normal Air Slash Shield Shulk goes this far (not actually a very far recovery distance).

I remind you that's actually without a jump.

So, in conclusion, advancing air slash should greatly reduce our troubles of recovering while in monado shield. There is not necessarily a need to switch out of the art in these situations if you are using advancing air slash. This is especially useful for the decisive monado arts, as it gives decisive monado shield even more viability.

----------------------

Going back to the decisive arts, we can now see that:

Jump is good for the same situations it is normally used, except it has obvious limitations for being used as recovery
Speed is always good
Shield is great at low percents, and not nearly as bad at high percents if paired with AAS
Buster is good with some foresight not to activate it when the opponent will get too high in the kill percents (which will not happen when he is at low damage).
Smash is usually worse, but good in the situations of being able to stall, the opponent being on the final stock, and situations where killing the opponent happens to take a long time

Everything else I have to say about decisive arts has already been said by the posts at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Masonomace]

@ Plain Yogurt here's some good news involving your post you typed asking about this phenomenon.
═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
I bear good news everyone. Upon testing this mythical Dash Vision Slide, I've learned that it works for other projectiles besides a Bob-omb from the sky. From what I've gathered, it works on projectiles that charge, items thrown, you name it. The interesting part about this is you have to be spaced well enough to be hitting with the edge area of the Monado (aka the sourspot which deals 5%) while it's swung forward AND the damage you have to counterattack must be at least ~7.7% or higher. I tried countering Luigi's Fireball which deals 6%, but alas I could not perform the DVS since Dash Vision's multiplier damage is x1.0 if the move is stronger than it's base damage. After I was countering moves that were either dealing ~7.7% or higher the DVS was successful. This also means that you can use a Buster Art to increase the damage enough to perform the DVS. A perfect example is trying to DV counter a Mega Man's Mega Buster Jab dealing 2% with Decisive Buster compared to having Hyper Buster active. If you try DV countering with DBuster you'll deal 7.7% & Shulk won't be able to DVS. However, when you activate HBuster & DV counter the Mega Buster Jab shot, it'll deal 8.4% & Shulk will do the DVS.

Dash Vision Slide is basically ready guys. All it takes is a Short Hop, spacing to our Dash Vision's sourspot, & deal back ~7.7% or more.

One thing I did find about DVS that made it less practical is when you try DV countering a projectile that's multi-hit such as Mega Man's Metal Blade. Countering on the ground allows you to bypass multi-hit projectiles, but in the air you cannot bypass them. That's all I got for now.

Is the damage only for default, becuase I think the maximum damage for hyper buster is 88%.

It is default. I Power Vision a Ganon's B-Reversed Warlock Punch & it deals 50% while OHKO'ing him at 0%. As for Hyper Buster, the highest damage I've dealt is doing the same thing I just typed but with Hyper Buster + Forwarded Power Vision, which dealt 84%. I'm not sure if there's a move stronger than Ganon's B-Reversed Punch since it deals 37% but yeah.

I should probably say that I wasn't really clear when I explained my finding. Speed actually makes your Freefalling state travel faster horizontally. Sorry I should have read over what I was saying.

But dat Dash Vision though. Seriously, it's something that should be part of a set. If DMArts are more for doubles play then perhaps just having SMArts in the DV set would be a good idea. Maybe 1322 for a good tech chasing, combo one. It doesn't last as long as DMArts but it's still good.

And hot damn that's awesome!!!!!! If my only source wasn't a smart phone with the ability to capture in glorious 60fps then I would record this for you. Sadly, I don't have someone willing to do it for me.

For sure! Drifting in freefall state after an AAS with any Speed Art is amazing.

I feel that all of Shulk's Custom Specials deserve to be used at least once in a set at this point. Back Slash Charge is missing something discussion though. I really want to know if the Super Armor really makes BSC worth it since that aspect & the huge horizontal leap distance is it's other main factor we notice without further exploration of the move.
═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
@ erico9001 "you never cease to surprise me blue hedgehog". Eggcelent post about DMArts, especially that I notice you giving Shield Arts more recovery justice kudos to AAS's amazing air speed drifting to alleviate their horrible air speed. I see BSC as a mix-up recovery option for the Shield Arts off-stage as well since BSC is not affected by a Monado Art's stats except for when you're landing & sliding across the floor. A Speed Art's increased traction stat will reduce the distance of the slide which is about it.