Shulk custom moveset discussion 2.0

[Scarhi]

That just seems like a waste of Shulk's potential. Decisive arts are pretty bad basically all the time by how limiting they are, and they hardly deserve the two sets they already have. And the sets aren't changing anyways now that they've gone public.

I agree on the fact that the adaptability that Regular and Hyper Arts provide is amazing and all, but isn't saying that Decisive arts are bad all the time a little bit of a stretch ? What do Regular Arts have over them in match-ups where you're better off using Monado Speed/Jump all the time ? Think of Villager for example.

I feel that an interesting part of customs Shulk's metagame might be the fact that we're able to counterpick Decisive/Hyper/Regular Arts depending on the character we're facing.

And the sets aren't changing anyways now that they've gone public.

Welp, I posted after reading berserker's post that said that it's still possible to give opinions on the sets x)

OH, 3 days until the custom presets are like... totally final. You guys have until March 27 to ask for some changes. If you have any objections, whatsoever. Go ahead and post NOW..

 

[erico9001]

Welp, I posted after reading berserker's post that said that it's still possible to give opinions on the sets x)

It is to my understanding that the custom sets were made to be due early so that we would have the chance to realize mistakes or make changes. You are free to scrutinize sets, and it is possible for them all to be changed. There very well may be some sets in our list that are unneeded and so could be replaced by decisive + dash vision.

That just seems like a waste of Shulk's potential. Decisive arts are pretty bad basically all the time by how limiting they are, and they hardly deserve the two sets they already have.

To me, it seems like when you are using decisive arts you are thinking 'I want to be in this art! Why can't I change to this art!?' This is not the mindset of the person who uses decisive arts. The person who uses decisive arts wants to be in the art that he is already in. He knows that is the best art to be in, so he enjoys that he can stick with it. In fact, when using decisive arts, it's even better than it is when using regular arts! Why is that art the best to be in? MU experience might have revealed which art is the best for certain characters. Or, maybe the person just overall has a lean towards a certain art which he has found most favorable for himself.

What I have been noticing while facing people using the different custom monado arts is that they all have their use, and they all suit different playstyles. I may not like hyper arts, but they are certainly not bad. I'm okay with either decisive or regular, and I do fine with both of them. With some match-ups, I do about even between the two of them. With other match-ups, I'll be doing much better with one art than the other. It all depends; no art is inherently bad.

 

[Masonomace]

Maybe some other time Air Slash Customs. .
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
About Decisive Arts against Zoning
If character MatchUps are found easier to deal with by using the Jump or Speed Arts for the majority of the match, then why not use DArts?

Why not?
-Cannot be deactivated
-Cycling to a DArt & waiting for it to self-activate takes 1.5 seconds
-Insert other reason(s) here

Why so?
-Stronger Arts
-Cooldown is reduced to 5 seconds
-Duration increases to 20 seconds
-Drawbacks remain unchanged
-Insert other reason(s) here

Consider that zoning characters can favor stages with any platforms such as Battlefield, Kongo Jungle 64, Delfino Plaza, Skyloft, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Town and City, Smashville, & Duck Hunt. Shulk is at some of a disadvantage on these stages, but when he's zoned hard on these stages, it becomes even more difficult of a disadvantage albeit it is doable against projectile-heavy characters.
---

Personally I don't mind if DArts are in the Anti-Zoning set or not, but imo, the only plausible reason DArts wouldn't be in the set is because they can't be deactivated. However, if I'm using the mobility Arts (Jump Speed & Shield) for combating zoners most of the match, why would I neglect using stronger & better Arts individually? Sometimes it seems to me that we underestimate just how much stronger DArts are compared to regular MArts. But alas, not being able to deactivate an Art is the only major downside to DArts afaik.

Example: If I got a zoner off the stage & was planning to zone them with well-spaced moves & movement on the ground, I'd deactivate said Art in order to cycle to Buster or Smash for either role of the moment with the Advantage: deal more damage or finish their stock.

DArts would make me stick with DJump DSpeed or whichever DArt it is & not capitalize the next moment (this case it's zoning the ledge). Still, DJump & DSpeed can do this too.

 

[Splash Damage]

Maybe some other time Air Slash Customs. .
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
About Decisive Arts against Zoning
If character MatchUps are found easier to deal with by using the Jump or Speed Arts for the majority of the match, then why not use DArts?

Why not?
-Cannot be deactivated
-Cycling to a DArt & waiting for it to self-activate takes 1.5 seconds
-Insert other reason(s) here

Why so?
-Stronger Arts
-Cooldown is reduced to 5 seconds
-Duration increases to 20 seconds
-Drawbacks remain unchanged
-Insert other reason(s) here

Personally I don't mind if DArts are in the Anti-Zoning set or not, but imo, the only plausible reason DArts wouldn't be in the set is because they can't be deactivated. However, if I'm using the mobility Arts (Jump Speed & Shield) for combating zoners most of the match, why would I neglect using stronger & better Arts individually? Sometimes it seems to me that we underestimate just how much stronger DArts are compared to regular MArts. But alas, not being able to deactivate an Art is the only major downside to DArts afaik.

Like I've said, it's not entirely about the effectiveness of the arts, it's about how much they help him adapt to his opponent's pressure and control the flow of the match. It's been shown before that Zoners often briefly change their strategies during matches to hyper offense to make a big percentage deficit only to return to the projectiles and zoning to keep you from evening the deficit until the timer runs out. This being the case, they can abuse the weaknesses the arts give you to make their zone and camping even more potent. Let's say I pop DSpeed to get in on a Villager who has lower % than me. Odds are he'll just double jump and Up-B around for as long as he needs, especially if he has the default up B, and Shulk will be unable to do anything about itdue to lowered Jump Height. Same goes for DShield(and much worse for DShield I may add). Essentially, it's almost giving the Zoners another more reliable and safe option of simply running away, especially if that character can go under the stage from ledge to ledge(Like most zoners can). Sure, they will have to change their strategy meaning Shulk is somewhat controlling what they do, but he's controlling it in a bad way in that instance. I could hold down my shield for five full seconds and that would limit the options my opponent has, but just because i'm changing my opponent's option doesn't necessarily mean i have an advantageThough, DJump would likely work somewhat well due to ability to more freely hit-and-run to avoid too much damage, though it doesn't really warrant its use well.
TL;DR:DMA is very effective for combatting Zoners in theory, however the inability to deactivate arts counts for much more than it lets on. The boosts they give are excellent, yes, and the longer time lasted is a good addition, yes, but the inability to cancel the arts is simply far too much to accommodate. Any player worth their salt will easily be able to adjust even slightly to make the art switch a terrible mistake for Shulk.

 

[erico9001]

Like I've said, it's not entirely about the effectiveness of the arts, it's about how much they help him adapt to his opponent's pressure and control the flow of the match. It's been shown before that Zoners often briefly change their strategies during matches to hyper offense to make a big percentage deficit only to return to the projectiles and zoning to keep you from evening the deficit until the timer runs out. This being the case, they can abuse the weaknesses the arts give you to make their zone and camping even more potent.

I just faced a Link who was being overaggressive rather than spacing me out. I was in Monado Jump. I took both stocks while taking only 20% damage. Why? Zoners rely on their zone because they are better from a distance than up close.

Let's say I pop DSpeed to get in on a Villager who has lower % than me. Odds are he'll just double jump and Up-B around for as long as he needs, especially if he has the default up B, and Shulk will be unable to do anything about itdue to lowered Jump Height.

What goes up must come down. Actually, Villager's jump height is about the height of Monado Speed's jump height. There's no issue reaching him. Also, if he uses his Up B, that's good for us. Monado Speed makes it really easy to punish his landing.

Same goes for DShield(and much worse for DShield I may add). Essentially, it's almost giving the Zoners another more reliable and safe option of simply running away, especially if that character can go under the stage from ledge to ledge(Like most zoners can). Sure, they will have to change their strategy meaning Shulk is somewhat controlling what they do, but he's controlling it in a bad way in that instance. I could hold down my shield for five full seconds and that would limit the options my opponent has, but just because i'm changing my opponent's option doesn't necessarily mean i have an advantageThough, DJump would likely work somewhat well due to ability to more freely hit-and-run to avoid too much damage, though it doesn't really warrant its use well.

If you can't catch them in those arts, how else are you going to catch them? Being in Decisive Speed or Jump does not make us more prone to being stalled. We are less prone to being stalled because of our improved mobility and greater amount of time that we can be in the art.

 

[Splash Damage]

I just faced a Link who was being overaggressive rather than spacing me out. I was in Monado Jump. I took both stocks while taking only 20% damage. Why? Zoners rely on their zone because they are better from a distance than up close.

Exactly, they rely on their zone for ~90 percent of the match, and only the remaining 10% do they aggress the opponent to give them a good zone setup. The player you mentioned doesn't fit the description of a zoner, rather an aggressor playing a character designed for Zoning, which would make him bound to fail anyway. If I tried to play Little Mac like an offstage gimp-reliant character, I'd lose to any Shulk, regardless of which arts they picked. If that player had around Izaw levels of skill with Link, he would have zoned you out until you picked an art, then would have changed his style to exploit the weakness borught on by the art, putting you in an irreversibly terrible position due to inability to change the art to save yourself. 20 seconds is a long time to be taking extra damage from attacks.

What goes up must come down. Actually, Villager's jump height is about the height of Monado Speed's jump height. There's no issue reaching him. Also, if he uses his Up B, that's good for us. Monado Speed makes it really easy to punish his landing.If you can't catch them in those arts, how else are you going to catch them?

Villager's normal Up-B is the best movement Up-B in the history of smash, all he has to do is go under the stage to the other ledge once or twice and drop down to near the blastzone and fly back up to stall out the art and time. Shulk is unable to safely edge guard him due to lower jump height w/Dspeed when paired with AAS as all zoning and all DMA sets are, and he has a 'blind spot' reight beneath the lip of the stage that he cannot effectively hit any opponents in due to his slow aerials. Even if he could edgeguard him and somehow return to ledge, Villager could very easily just up-b back to ledge with his incredible recovery. In some cases, even some other Zoning characters like Rosalina can safely recover from any non-SD inducing edgeguard from DSpeed Shulk.
Back on the topic of Shulk's blind spot and Villager regrab bing the ledge, he can use AAS to get a stage spike if the Villager or other Zoner isn't expecting it, which is a plus, but you can just do the same thing with the other arts just as well. In fact, you can actually do it better with the other arts by swapping from lower-damage Speed mode to Vanilla or even Smash if you're feeling real(Though popping Smash is not a vbery good idea as it make syou obvious).

Being in Decisive Speed or Jump does not make us more prone to being stalled. We are less prone to being stalled because of our improved mobility and greater amount of time that we can be in the art.

I must not have gotten my correct point across. What I meant when I said that is that we are more easily able to break their zone, yes, but like I said above, skilled Zoners aren't robots. They will certainly know about how to exploit weaknesses in zone-breaking strategies in any way possible, and having a statistical decrease in defense or attack is a pretty blatant target. I elaborated on this much better in the previous page, but the abridged version is that any player who knows what they're doing will bait out a monado art choice just to use the weakness, proceeding to exploit that weakness and put Shulk in a bad spot. This is what makes Decisive worse than the others. It's not about how good the arts are, it's about how they help Shulk get and keep control of the match against opponents who adapt. Decisive cannot do this. Decisive is incredibly counterintuitive to Shulk's playstyle, and the playstyle you should have in tournament. You should be adapting to your opponent on the fly, not choosing one playstyle and sticking to it for a whole stock. HMA and MA are incredibly good at helping you do this, as you not only are able to safely escape a baited art choice, but are also able to mix up your opponent just as they think they know your idea. Decisive forces you to stick with one style for most of a stock, which is the exact opposite of what you should be doing in a tournament match.

 

[erico9001]

Exactly, they rely on their zone for ~90 percent of the match, and only the remaining 10% do they aggress the opponent to give them a good zone setup. The player you mentioned doesn't fit the description of a zoner, rather an aggressor playing a character designed for Zoning, which would make him bound to fail anyway. If I tried to play Little Mac like an offstage gimp-reliant character, I'd lose to any Shulk, regardless of which arts they picked. If that player had around Izaw levels of skill with Link, he would have zoned you out until you picked an art, then would have changed his style to exploit the weakness borught on by the art, putting you in an irreversibly terrible position due to inability to change the art to save yourself.

When I'm using normal Monado Jump, I don't find myself having to switch out of it. My playstyle with Monado Jump is probably different from your's, though. I welcome it if Link wants to fight me in close quarters. I out-range him, and my frame data out-speeds him. If I'm feeling pressured, I can reset to the other side of the stage thanks to being in Monado Jump.

20 seconds is a long time to be taking extra damage from attacks.

It seems you are kind of overestimating the amount of extra damage Jump Shulk takes while in Monado Jump. 1.22x. This does not have to do entirely with just discussion of Zoners, but just in general. If you take 20 damage in 20 seconds, you've added only 4.4% damage by being in Jump. However, you're probably taking less damage than 20 while in Jump because you're in the air, or if you're me, you're baiting. I think people, in general, really underestimate Jump's potential in the neutral.

Villager's normal Up-B is the best movement Up-B in the history of smash, all he has to do is go under the stage to the other ledge once or twice and drop down to near the blastzone and fly back up to stall out the art and time. Shulk is unable to safely edge guard him due to lower jump height w/Dspeed when paired with AAS as all zoning and all DMA sets are, and he has a 'blind spot' reight beneath the lip of the stage that he cannot effectively hit any opponents in due to his slow aerials. Even if he could edgeguard him and somehow return to ledge, Villager could very easily just up-b back to ledge with his incredible recovery.

Okay. Since you were talking about Shulk not being able to jump high enough to reach Villager, it made it seem as you were saying Villager can stall Speed Shulk out by using Up B while above the stage. Speed Shulk can still edgeguard kind of low, though. In no way is Villager immune to Speed Shulk when doing a tactic like that. We travel faster on land than he does in air, so if he's going to the other side of the stage we can just meet him there. Maybe RAR off and stage spike with an Fair.

In some cases, even some other Zoning characters like Rosalina can safely recover from any non-SD inducing edgeguard from DSpeed Shulk.

Gimping her is hard, yea. She's pretty light, though.

Back on the topic of Shulk's blind spot and Villager regrab bing the ledge, he can use AAS to get a stage spike if the Villager or other Zoner isn't expecting it, which is a plus, but you can just do the same thing with the other arts just as well. In fact, you can actually do it better with the other arts by swapping from lower-damage Speed mode to Vanilla or even Smash if you're feeling real(Though popping Smash is not a vbery good idea as it make syou obvious).

Actually, AAS's stage spike has a set knockback. I don't think it would work on Villager, even at higher percents.

I must not have gotten my correct point across. What I meant when I said that is that we are more easily able to break their zone, yes, but like I said above, skilled Zoners aren't robots. They will certainly know about how to exploit weaknesses in zone-breaking strategies in any way possible, and having a statistical decrease in defense or attack is a pretty blatant target. I elaborated on this much better in the previous page, but the abridged version is that any player who knows what they're doing will bait out a monado art choice just to use the weakness, proceeding to exploit that weakness and put Shulk in a bad spot. This is what makes Decisive worse than the others. It's not about how good the arts are, it's about how they help Shulk get and keep control of the match against opponents who adapt.

you're acting like our only way to adapt is to switch arts. That's just not true.

Decisive cannot do this. Decisive is incredibly counterintuitive to Shulk's playstyle

There is not just one Shulk playstyle. Also, it's a different playstyle. It's still a Shulk playstyle. [I would just be repeating myself if I responded to the rest.]

-
edit time:
By the way, I just noticed something. Decisive arts are always the midpoint between normal arts and hyper arts. For Buster: Normal buster is 1.4. Hyper is 1.68. (1.4+1.68)/2=1.54, the actual multiplier for decisive arts. This has been true for all data I've looked at for air speeds and run speeds. It's also true for damage taken while in Monado Shield (.67+.536)/2=.603, the actual value for decisive shield.

 

[Splash Damage]

It seems you are kind of overestimating the amount of extra damage Jump Shulk takes while in Monado Jump. 1.22x. This does not have to do entirely with just discussion of Zoners, but just in general. If you take 20 damage in 20 seconds, you've added only 4.4% damage by being in Jump. However, you're probably taking less damage than 20 while in Jump because you're in the air, or if you're me, you're baiting. I think people, in general, really underestimate Jump's potential in the neutral.

True, Zoners will likely be unable to tack on more than 20 or so percent if they're keeping their zone up, especially with the higher momentum. What concerns me were I to use it is the chance that they may start to aggress you after you activate it. THis is not much of a concern with Link I know, but Ros and Villager have some effective ways to output damage(Ros will likely be able to catch Shulk with Luma Warp and link it into big damage), and it is a bit too dangerous to use against any character with combo potential or strong hits. But, we're talking about zoners here, so the Jump mode's defense shouldn't be too big of a concern.

Actually, AAS's stage spike has a set knockback. I don't think it would work on Villager, even at higher percents.

oh
o h
t h e r e g o m y d r e a m s

you're acting like our only way to adapt is to switch arts. That's just not true. There is not just one Shulk playstyle. Also, it's a different playstyle. It's still a Shulk playstyle.

I know it's a Shulk playstyle, what I'm saying is that it's a sub-optimal playstyle. Being classifiable as a playstyle doesn't make it useful or viable, like I said in the previous, going offstage with Little Mac to attempt to get F-air and N-air gimps is a playstyle, but a risky, inneffective, and wholly unreliable playstyle.
Sure Shulk can still adapt while the arts are activated, but you're cutting off a big part of Shulk's potential without being able to utilize the extra boosts. If you manage to break your opponents attempts at mixing you up after an art choice and you're using speed, you will likely be able to get a decent combo off, but your only option is to get that combo or anything else of the sort that works with speed's limited uses. You can't switch to Buster to do more damage, Smash to link it into a kill, Shield to ensure safety, or Jump to reset the neutral. You have to use speed, which has a limited flowchart of any solid option. You cannot mix up any knowledgeable opponent as they will know of and cover all of these options or do any superior option that speed is missing.

 

[erico9001]

I know it's a Shulk playstyle, what I'm saying is that it's a sub-optimal playstyle. Being classifiable as a playstyle doesn't make it useful or viable, like I said in the previous, going offstage with Little Mac to attempt to get F-air and N-air gimps is a playstyle, but a risky, inneffective, and wholly unreliable playstyle

I thought you were trying to say it's bad because it's not the typical Shulk style of playing. Anyways,

Sure Shulk can still adapt while the arts are activated, but you're cutting off a big part of Shulk's potential without being able to utilize the extra boosts. If you manage to break your opponents attempts at mixing you up after an art choice and you're using speed, you will likely be able to get a decent combo off, but your only option is to get that combo or anything else of the sort that works with speed's limited uses. You can't switch to Buster to do more damage, Smash to link it into a kill, Shield to ensure safety, or Jump to reset the neutral. You have to use speed, which has a limited flowchart of any solid option. You cannot mix up any knowledgeable opponent as they will know of and cover all of these options or do any superior option that speed is missing.

What's exactly wrong with being in Monado Speed in this instance? Getting a combo is good.
>Buster, do more damage: Are you really dealing more damage if you are switching to buster, though? In this scenario, you said we can get a good combo off. That means we have more hits that are connecting, which accounts for the lower damage with single hits. You might be dealing more damage overtime by being in Monado Speed. Also, if I were to switch out of Monado Speed at this point, the opponent might have an easy time re-setting up his zone, since the lack of mobility prevents me from maintaining pressure as well.
>Smash, link to kill: Monado Speed is pretty effective at getting kills. It has a big boost to air speed, making you faster in air than jigglypuff, which effectively makes Shulk's offstage game better. Also, we have nice running up-smashes.
>Shield, to ensure safety: Speed is a somewhat safe art. It's easy to avoid enemy's hits and maintain distance away from them. Decisive Speed's speed is halfway between regular Speed and Hyper Speed, so it's even better at doing that.
>Jump, to reset the neutral: Speed has this capability, because Shulk can just run away. When I'm mixing up my opponents well, I can even run right through them!

An okay way to look at decisive arts is each art is a different character (except Smash though). Other characters aren't bad because they can't switch into some other mode. They are fine with what they have. Due to decisive's increases to positives without worse negatives, it is more solid on its own than regular monado arts. Example: When I most recently played Masonomace, he decided to try out using solely decisive shield through the entire match (along with AAS custom). It actually worked well.

 

[Splash Damage]

An okay way to look at decisive arts is each art is a different character (except Smash though). Other characters aren't bad because they can't switch into some other mode. They are fine with what they have. Due to decisive's increases to positives without worse negatives, it is more solid on its own than regular monado arts. Example: When I most recently played Masonomace, he decided to try out using solely decisive shield through the entire match (along with AAS custom). It actually worked well.

I suppose you have a point, as they all do play very differently, and it is true that other characters aren't bad due to inability to switch. Like I said, none of the Art customs are bad, and if Decisive was Shulk's default option I'm sure he would still be very good. What I'm trying to say is that, when using Decisive, you're removing a big part of Shulk's potential, which is the ability to always be in the best position at the necessary time.
Say Shulk didn't have the arts at all. He would still be a pretty good character with his sword priority and tremendous range. However, the Arts are what make him viable due to the ability to always have the best stat boosts to accommodate your situation. Decisive's heightened boosts make all the arts more likely to work in the situations they may not to a certain extent, but they are not the best, most reliable option. Back to the speed mode analogy, all speed modes don't have their max combo potential for long, it ending at about ~40%, which doesn't take very long to accumulate. After that, normally you would cancel the art or it would just cancel on its own, but not with Decisive. Now, like I said, that's not that bad, but a much better alternative would be the ability to switch to Jump for edgeguards(And the ability to recover after them, as Shulk often has to go pretty deep to get the reliable
edgeguards) or Buster to do more damage(If you've seen DistantKingdom's video on Shulk you'll know about the B-Throw to B-Slash Buster mode followup that's made much more effective with Decisive), Or Smash if you're feeling real. You're not in too bad of a position by nature iun this specific art, but a not-so-bad position pales in comparison to a favorable or good option. You can still put yourself in a decent spot, but why would you want decent by mixups over favorable by nature?

 

[erico9001]

@ Splash Damage
Mm... I don't think Speed needs to be cancelled out at 40%. But anyways, if we are still talking about zoners, the reason I would want to stay in Speed is to maintain pressure. I don't want them to be ale to reestablish their zones. Decisive Speed is even better at that. Yes, it is a sacrifice to not be able to switch out of the art at times. However, that's justified by being able to be in an art for longer time, having a very short cooldown time, and having the positive aspects of the art boosted. Overall, when you're in decisive speed or decisive jump (depending on MU), your opponent rarely even has that zone which he relies on.
--------------------------------
ChronoPenguin posted this a while ago:

The actual thing to note is that recovering low becomes a tendency to avoid certain options. You recover early with AAS to use its horizontal but this also makes it easier to contest then simply sliding up the ledge with AS or MAS.

I don't think AAS is easier to contest generally. AAS avoids meteor smashes, stage spikes, Villager's bowling ball, and opponents using their counters near the edge. It would be easier to hit with a projectile, but the move should be able to out prioritize them with its first strike.

However, I have found it's pretty tough to recover while using AAS against Lucario. The move has solid knockback, pushing you farther and farther from the edge, and it cannot be challenged by the first strike of AAS. It is possible to recover by challenging the ball with the second strike of AAS. Unfortunately, that is often not possible. Luckily, I cannot think of any move that is like Lucario's aura sphere. The projectile would need to be horizontal, have large knockback, and out-prioritize the first strike of AAS. There are many custom moves I have not seen, so there very well could be some other moves like this.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I like Decisive MArts, Back Slash Charge (super armor is useful in some situations, but not really a great move), Air Slash, and regular vision. I feel like Power Vision is just too slow for me... "I've got a good rhythm going!"